Muslim Ghettoisation

Re: # 511
satya...
all muslas are either bedus (24 carat) or wannable bedus ( varies from 22 carat to 16 carat)...
a palestinian is 22 carat bedu and a paki is 20 carat bedu...a bd musla is 16 carat bedu...

Hi,

Good post....thanks for sharing.. very useful for me i will bookmark this for my future needed. thanks for a great source.

http://pakistanherald.com/Profile/Syed-Hamid-Saeed-Kazmi-510

replying #498 Posted by Eklavya,

Not really, It is not mistaken. Murad and others do try to say that this hinduism is different from that hinduism or Murad even says that I prefer to see things as they were in certain period of time without generalizing them (with out giving them a term like hinduism). All this was an attempt to cover what I said about "hurt ego" etc (to explain why one will say things like that). His argument is not valid, everything that spans large time period changes, the whole existence of a thing with respect to time involves CHANGE. Even the Himalaya is not what it was say in 1500 BC. But to use such reasoning to justify your misleading comments about what hinduism is or is not, tells you that here psychology is more important than reasoning itself. What is the history of science? Did it change since its inception? How do you decide when it started?

When you talk about history of some idea/thought/philosophy/culture/people or a religion like hinduism which is more close to these things than those religions like Islam or Christianity (prophet+book), you can not take a foolish simplistic attitude. History of idea or thought or philosophy or culture includes change provided they are originating from the same source have similar scope and have a constant flow.

I can write this much more precisely than what I am writing, but what I am saying is that an unbiased rational person will not try to impress upon anybody that ancient hinduism and current hinduism are two different things even if they have any differences. I gave example of mantras, Brahmins and lot more just as hints to show why saying so is stupid and biased.

Open letter to moderate and liberal Muslims such as Senna

This response was to mulla mandar multankar aka masadi sahab, but it applies to you all. Would you please take new Indianized names such as Mulla Shekhar Lahorkar or Mulli (whatever female equivalent of mulla) Seema Mumbaikar?


Sorry, if I hurt your feelings. Generally religion, sex and money (RSM) are avoided in discussion. It's little easy to talk about Benezir, Britany, Birla and Bhangra. But for mst of us, yours truly included, RSM occupies big chunk of our mind, almost defining our identity.

First, it is not Islam that "captures" political power, the fools do that in the name of Islam,

Who are those fools? Are they non-Islamic? To capture political power "the fools (TF)" need faith enhancing pirs, courtier writers and King-Nama creating historians and foot soldiers and dhimmi tax (Ziziya) paying financier and Jakat (tax) and Chanda paying believers, as per my understanding. Please correct me.

second the ability to colonize the life world was perfected by the capitalists of today and not by the Muslims of the Middle Ages who even when they got political power did not by fact or defintion get rid of the alternative identities that coexisted, at the time of partition the Hindus outnumbered the Muslims of India, and did not consider themselves subservient to them,


Let us leave capitalist of today aside for time being. Hope we are not playing blame game. Do you mean Aurangzeb did not happen? Shahajan was equally brutal as Aurangzeb. Large populace was allowed to practice Hindu religion for political exigencies, tactical reason and for generating revenue as Jiziya. It was not because of any altruistic or attitude of "celebrating diversity."


unlike the European settlers who wiped out wholesale the very existance of the indigeneous folk, the fact regardless of your bigotry against Islam (contrived and full of BS)


Granted they might have done to Americas but did not or could not do it in Asia. But why bring them into picture. We are focused on Islam. I would like you to hold my own mirror in front of me, not show my image you see in your camera. All of us tend to have tented lenses when we focus our camera on others.


is that never before in the history of the world have so many of such diverse cultures been enslaved by externally defined sense of worth and self, as in today's America-led world. The world today is much smaller than it ever was in the past, which has ensured that the means to define and process reality in the hands of the elite are much greater and the feat much simpler.


Compared to Muslim period, in present so called American period, there is more celebration of Indian culture, spiritual practices and art all over the world not just in India. More Indians are doing Yog, Meditation and chanting compared to Muslim period. More Indians are Garv Se Kaho Hum Hindu Hain. World is smaller, thanks to communication technology and progress in aviation. 30% employees of Bell Labs are Indians. More than 50% of telecom and internet related start ups in silicon valley were started by Indians. NASA is 20% Indian. While achieving these successes Indians do not need to profess new religion or disown their culture and identity. Compare that to Rajputs of medieval India. Aren't majority of them Muslims with Arabic first and lat names? Can these Rajputs talk there Rajasthani or Marwari language? Trace the progeny of Raja ManSingh.


Islam has never had problems of identity and worth based on label, Muslims have invented their preceived superiority just as people of other faiths have; the sense of worth Islam defines is based on character and act and not on some label or belonging with a group, in fact it busts xenophobia and ethnocentricity by declaring that all are equal creations of their one God who because of how they act and what they do either stunt their growth or reach higher levels of development.

Would you be able to call yourself from today onwards as Mullah Mandar Mulatankar? A Jain or Boudha can be Mittal, Agrawal, Chougule, Shinde or Singh and be devout Jain or Boudha. Even Indian devout Christians have names such as Rev. Arjun Krishnan. How about Muslims? I have not seen a Indian Muslim with their native language names. Look at even Bangladeshis who separated from west Pakistan because of the pride in their language but you won't find a Bangladeshi Muslim with names such as Nirankar Dhakkakar. The new converts to Islam first lose their individual identity.


Now I know you Hindu bigots are obsessed with Islam, but only a fool would learn from your perversion of history and your ignorance of the Quran what it is about, so refrain from constructing strawmen where you define what your miserable understanding of Islam


For the survival of true Islam you need to get obsessed much more than me, to save spiritual part of Islam and throw away imperialistic and cultural linguistic enslavement part of Islam.

Re: # 512 ajeet,

"What you are descibing is the political process that goes with it. The Pakistani elite want their language closer to Persian and Arabic, therefore the introduction of foreign words in their Urdu. The language spoken by the masses will remain the same except for some change over period of time.
"

What you explained was evolution of natural languages. Urdu is as much natural as Pascal and C++. It is imposed on subjugated people and to tear apart community giving fake language based identity to the new convert to make him more fanatic.

Cheema Sahib / Senna

Thank you.
Satya
Re: 507

I tried to explain how the languages develop, grow and change. This not an isolated incidence, It happens all over the world all the time. For instance the language which we see as English today is very different from the the Language spoken in England pre Norman conquest. The Normans became the elite in England and brought it much closer to French then the native anglo-saxon.

What you are descibing is the political process that goes with it. The Pakistani elite want their language closer to Persian and Arabic, therefore the introduction of foreign words in their Urdu. The language spoken by the masses will remain the same except for some change over period of time.

The political process can hurt and affect the language. The mass declaration of Hindi as their mother tongue by Punjabi Hindus hurt the written Punjabi language as it had to share and in some case give up the teaching of the language in schools in some cases.

The condition for Punjabi, is I believe worse in Pakistan as Punjabi written in Shahmukhi is not taught in schools and in time will disappear. The spoken language will just become a dialect of Urdu.

Re: # 510 Senna,

Re: # 182

"All Muslims are Saudi first, arn't they?"
Is tha a lie or Not
Its also called reverse psychology if you r a liar you name youself Satya"

I am assuming you are muslim. Take a poll of your near and dear ones.

If there is a war tomorrow between Saudi Arabia and India, and the chief mulla of Mecca-Madina and your local Indian mulla gave a fatwa to destroy India

1 would you take a gun against the Saudis and rush to the war front as volunteer?

2. would you train yourself to be a bomber pilot, so that you get to bomb out Mecca-Madina?

3. would you join RAW to infiltrate in KSA for spying?
.
.
.
.

Waiting for your response. Now tell me who is the liar. You answer these questions for yourself. Muslim identity is first and foremost lies with Islam. Period.

Re: # 507
Ajeet
Very astute statement &observation .Indeed u r not defeatable

Re: # 507 Ajeet,

Try to decipher news broadcast by Radio Pakistan? I am assuming you are Hindi speaking. Why does AIR has Urdu channel?

Religion coming from Mid East be it Paulian or Mohammdian is imperialistic in nature. Court and administrative language is yet another means for enslaving others. Slaves internalize it and create hierarchy among themselves based on English/Urdu/Persian accent.

Re: # 507; Ajeet

at last someone with some functional brain cells!

thank you sir

The confusion starts when people start confusing the scripts and the spoken word. This is understandable because for most languages the oral and written language the name is the same,

People of a contiguous area speak the same language. As you move away form this area the language start to change. Even in the same area the language spoken by the elite is different from the commoners. When a lot of people move from outside to this area they bring their own language and the two merge. In most cases the grammar remains the same but the vocabulary is mixed and some words are bastardized.

Now about the script. The script is an attempt to put the spoken word on the paper. So every area of the world developed their own scripts to write the language spoken in that area. But you may use one script to write another language. For example you may use the Devnagri script to write Hindi or you may even use it to write English. Or you may use the Arabic script which was developed to write spoken Arabic to write the language spoken in India.

Dominent people of the area use the script most familiar to them to write the local language.

This is the origin of Urdu. The Mughals wrote the local language in the script they were used to, i.e. Arabic Persian. Hindi is the same language written in the script popular before the Muslims came to India.

Re: # 502 Sienna,

Marathi needs to be learned if you reside in Maharashtra, not only that you need to celeberate local customs, cultur and the heroes. If you do not want then please do not come. If you are Muslim and feel uncomfortable then live in Macca-madian or Pakistan.

This need to be done so that people do not call yo plat pissers.

when the people are SHUNNED and targeted again and again and again....it becomes a cycle and can you really blame those oppressed people to form ghettos? i dont think so. At least they have someone to hold on to

Reply to # 448 of Shattered_Sun,

If we look carefully this video then we can notice Army gear and Rucksacks in the background.

Her face may be looking young , but she might be over 18 year of age and it looks like this video is real as she was narrating her experience to her friends and some one recorded it.

Video clip American Army's Sex in Mosque can be viewed here:

"people of Dharma "

In my ollege days no one used dharam for Hindu .After India /pakistan is large country ,diff pl, dif kind hindu, diff region diff languages .

I think Laddu Pinku Satya Sattywadi Jang and trishuli hope for it which is nothing but a belief .

As hamidm depite being anti muslim was scared by you

Re: # 497

Marathi needs to be made compulasory in education if you are residing in Maharashtra.So one more marathi is added to the million other marathi in

May be, toward creating better mutual understanding, all Indians/Hindus should volunteer to pay the cost of romair/murad bhai's further/higher education and better living standards.

satya, I am not fully sure if that will work. I am not sure what will work. But it is thoroughly unreasonable to expect that romair and murad bhai and many others will 'understand' only they were a little more educated or had more money.

Why Indians continue to hold on to this belief I don't know. May be it is their feeling of being 'trapped' by Gandhi/Nehru and lacking any alternatives...

"It is a bit disappointing to see that Indians/Hindus still expect 'education' and 'economics' to create understanding (some day in the future). We refuse to believe that, intellectually and emotionally, people live in completely different worlds."

You reserve economic and educational opportunities to the people of Dharma and within one gneration the people will start living in one world which brings roti, kapada and makan. This is probably the least cost and non-violent way to solve communal problem in Inida.

"So when somebody says that India or Hinduism do not exist in ancient times, what we should focus is on the psychology of the person who is saynig so, not on India or Hinduism itself:-) "

Pinku, that may be a mistaken view.

romair and murad bhai and many more will quickly agree on India's 'history' before the arrival of Muslims.

Would you think there is something 'psychological' the matter here?

-----------

It is a bit disappointing to see that Indians/Hindus still expect 'education' and 'economics' to create understanding (some day in the future). We refuse to believe that, intellectually and emotionally, people live in completely different worlds.

Urdu brings the culture which is anti-Indian, anti-modeern and divisive. Marathi needs to be made compulasory in education if you are residing in Maharashtra. English is necessary for the time being as window to the world more specifically to Science and Technology. Math and Science is best learned in one's mother tongue. I have seen guys and gals who study for Microsoft and Cisco certification in Marathi even though the exams are in English. They in fact do better than those who are from english medium or convents. Understanding is easier in one's mother tongue. Words in mother tongue reach to one's DNA.

As it is we cannot escape from one foreign language, ie, English why add one more alien language such as Urdu which is basically a language of decadent culture.

With improvemet in translating technology or computing, in few decades we need not even learn English for Science and Technology. Ramanujams happen when they study Maths and Science in mother tongue.

High emphasis on mother tongue, moderate emphasis on English and little less emphasis on Hindi is good formula for India.

It all depends on ability and feasibility of MAKING a person LEARN new language other than there mother tongue and one other for there lively hood .Only Hindi in Hindibelt is suffecient as we see in Lallu .In order to do better english is must .As a common language English is also necessary .Bengali in maharashtra will not learn maharashtrian or punjabi in Bengal that is more than asho jabo bhalo basho.South Indians are never eager to learn hindi .Problem is ot urdu .how to make whole India speake Hindi (impossible) or Whole of Pakistan speake urdu (impossible)How to solve this problem is the problem

Urdu needs to be banned in India because of its history. It is a language of Kotha and Hukka Pani. All its literature is about dancing girls and Ayashi. All Indian mother tongues such as Punjabi, Rajasthani, Tamil, Assamese etc need to be helped so that survive. Those are natural languages. Urdu is forced bastard language. Its culture is also bastard. It does not produce any saints such as Kabir.

kiya rehay ga , kiya khatam hoo jayeegaaa yeh aap ki rai or andaza hey , humeen kiya .

Haan hoo sakta hey, yeh nazaria keh Urdu , Panjab meen ya lahori meen say niklee , ghalat hoo , kiyoon keh Wali Dakani aurungabad key they, per Mas`ud Sa`d Salman of Lahore (1046-1121) say pehlay Urdu ka koi literature naheen milta .

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00fwp/srf/txt_urdulit2007.html


English attempt.


What will be left and what will be destroyed , that is your opinion , I am not concerned with it,

Yes it is possible , that this theory may be wrong, because Wali Dakkani was from Aurungabad.
but we do not find any Urdu literature before Mas`ud Sa`d Salman of Lahore (1046-1121)and as you can see he is from Lahore.

Re: # 492

http://islamicindia.blogspot.com/2005/11/origin-and-growth-of-urdu-langua ge. html

6 letters after // makes it a big suspect. dis/mis-information for the sake of allah is halal!

btw the link does not work.

muslim/islamic identity overrides all other identities. Punjabi is going to die in Pakistan. Why Indians should care? Soon Urdu will also die after Taliban takeover and Pakistan will be an Arabi country or GCC.

is me palitics waghaira ka koi hath naheen , na hum palitcs jantey or kertey heen .


hum ney to aik seedhi baat ki thee , jis key mutabiq , kehtey heen pehlay zabaneen apnay sheroon kay nam say bhi pehchani jaati theen , jaisay lahori or Delvi , waghaira whaghaira .

is blog ko perheen

http://islamicindia.blogspot.com/2005/11/origin-and-growth-of-urdu-language. html


kafi tafseel say urdu hi history ki mukhtalif theorian dee heen.




I do not do or know politics, I was just trying to trace the origin, please read the blog mentioned above, it has many theories about origin or urdu in it.

accordingly, it is said, earlier languages were known by the cities in which they were spoken, for example , Lahori, delvi, peshawari, multani , ....etc..etc..


please correct if wrong done.


thanks

afat

It is politically expedient to establish origin of Urdu in Lahore for the national language of Pakistan.

Marathi is much closer to Prakrit than many other language. It was spoken in large portion of present MP, Chattisghadh, Karnataka, whole of Maharashtra, some part of Andhra. Before Hindi came along Marathi was the most popular language.

Is there any language called Lahori or is it a dialect of Punjabi?

haan yeh to hum jantey heen Urdu ko Lashkari bhi kaha jaata hey, kiyoon key yeh Mughal Lashkar meen, jo keh mukhtalif ilaqay kay loogon per mushtamil thaa , pehlay booli gayee, yani aap sahi keh rehey heen keh
"Urdu developed in the cantonements or camps while communicating with maratha mercenary "


hum to uska origin , kissi our zaban meen talash ker rehey they, jaisay keh kehtey heen , pehlay zabaneen apnay shehroon kay naam say pehchani jaati theen, yani Lahore meen Lahori , waighaira, or ghalibn koi Professor sherani sahib heen , jinoon ney Urdu ka origin Lahori zaban meen talash kiyaa thaa.

Humarai angerzi achee naheen, so mukhtasarn likhney ki koshish kereen gay.

Yes you are right "Urdu developed in the cantonements or camps while communicating with maratha mercenary " , as Urdu is also called " Lashkari " .

I was trying to relate it to some Mr Professor Shirani's resarch in which he said its origin are in Lahori , as he said, earlier Languages were also related to the city in which they were spoken.


thanks.

"its also said, Urdu is " Lahori plus Bruj Bhasa " , and evolved because of the need of interaction between Persian speaking rulers and the so called Indian."

Urdu developed in the cantonements or camps while communicating with maratha mercenary soldiers before Shivaji. Birth place is Kutub Shahi in Daccan. Flowered in north mainly Awadh. Mughals relied on Persian as court language.

Vedic civilization is the earliest civilization in Indian history, vedic sanskrit is the language of vedas, vedic sanskrit is slightly different from classical sanskrit ,the same way , comparable to the difference between Homeric Greek and Classical Greek.

Vedic civilzation and Indus Valley civilizations overlap.The timeline of Vedic civilization is 4500 BC-1800 BC while that of Indus valley civilization is 3300 BC-1800 BC.

Indus valley civilization is the civilzation that evolved between Indus river and Legendary Saraswati river, which is supposed to have flowed from East of Jehlum all the way to arabian sea , parrellel to Indus and ending up in Run of Kutch , so far an estimated 2400-3000 sites related to it have been discovered , mostly in the areas now in Pakistan .

Vedas were written in the areas we call Panj-aab or in the areas of Sapta-sindhu , land of seven rivers, so in and around Present day Punjab.

Panjabi language is a tonal language , just like Prakrit language ,

Prakrit (Sanskrit prÄ?ká¹›ta पà¥?राकृत (from pra-ká¹›ti पà¥?रकृति), "original, natural, artless, normal, ordinary, usual", i.e. "vernacular", in contrast to samskrta "excellently made", both adjectives elliptically referring to vak "speech") .

Scholars often distinguish Vedic Sanskrit and Classical or "Paninian" Sanskrit as separate dialects. However, they are extremely similar in many ways and differ mostly in a few points of phonology, vocabulary, and grammar. Classical Sanskrit can therefore be considered a seamless evolution of the earlier Vedic language.


Panjabi is written in two distinct scripts, ShahMukhi , from the mouth of Shah/King. and GuruMukhi , from the mouth of Guru/teacher.

Shahmukhi uses Persian-Nastaliq script , from right to left , and is the predecer or Urdu, infact in my opinion Urdu uses ShahMukhi , as Panjabi is much older then urdu.

its also said, Urdu is " Lahori plus Bruj Bhasa " , and evolved because of the need of interaction between Persian speaking rulers and the so called Indian.

urdu was patronized by the British , East India made it a term of employment for its employees to learn one local language , and urdu was favoured, They even established Fort William college to faciliate it.


Hum ziada perhay likhey naheen, yeh sub hum ney search ker key likha hey, ghalti ka imkan hey, hum ney hoo sakta hey samjha hi ghalat hoo , to agar aisa hey to barah-e-karam humari islah ker deyn , hum nihayet hi mashkoor hoon gay.

jo urdu naheen samjh saktey unkay liyaa , english meen koshish kertey heen.

I am not much read person,and have writted all this after searching, I might be mistaken in understanding, so if so,please correct me, I will be much gratefull .
for those who cannot read roman urdu , I try in English .


thanking you

AFAT.

dost-mittar #480" "....This 'sense' is something intangible and hard to put a finger on it but, to an extent, it is what the outsiders called Hindus..."

....it is hard to put a finger on it, because there is nothing to put a finger on....it is neither intangible, nor tangible.....it doesn't exist....

let me rephrase.....it didn't exist.....it does exist now, due to the emergence of nation states, called india and pakistan......however, historically, there was no india or pakistan....

...hind was a geographical area....while hindu has always been a referal, rightly or wrongly, to a religion.....and still is......hind is what you are refering to.....hind maps to europe....it does not map to a cultural entity, a religious entity, a national entity (until the current creation of india), a social entity etc...

...it is this, forceful, re-mapping of history that many people in india (or pakistan) to current national agendas and boundaries, with which i, totally, disagree......

.....if one is going to extend a cultural and social entity called hind from afghanistan to sri lanka, then why not extend it to iran and burma and thailand and uzbekestan......

.....the only common entity, in what you are refering to as hind was a common majority religion, called hinduism....so if one assume religion to be the defining quality of a civilization, then yes what you are saying is correct......

replying #485 Posted by TrichMir

TrichMir,
that is a good point. do you want it while keeping Iran an Islamic republic or after leaving Islam?

Afghanistan doesn't become a part of the so-called Indian Sub-Continent just because the BBC site shows it as a part of South Asia.

Culturally, linguistically, and racially Afghans are Iranic people and have hardly anything in common with Indians. Afghanistan has always been an integral part of greater Iran that stretches from Transoxiana in the north to Balochetan in the south and Tigris in the west to Indus in the east. Pakistan's two western provinces, that were once a part of Afghanistan, are also an extension of the great Iranic culture and civilization.

So when somebody says that India or Hinduism do not exist in ancient times, what we should focus is on the psychology of the person who is saynig so, not on India or Hinduism itself:-)

ref to:
#480 Posted by dost_mittar
and bulleya#478,

I think I wrote a fialry long story for bubba to describe how India and Hinduism are defined in ancient times.

In ancient times India was one not because of the culture, linguistic affinity, common religious framework (hinduism) but also because it was a geographically separate area. So called indian sub-continent (or indian tectonic plate).

Even the ecosystems found in this plate/geography are quite different from rest of the asia and adjacent middle-east.

This area had remained heavily populous since ancient times and was quite protected from outsiders because of physical barriers like Hindu Kush, Himalaya and Ocean as well as large population living at cost lines.

Those who say India was not even there or Hinduism was not even there are foolish in the sense that instead of a concept they tend to think in terms of what term you use for that concept. So Hinduism is a concept, an ideology or a framework of religious thoughts, India was basically the land-mass that created that ideolgy/culture. Even if tomorrow all hindus become extinct, the idea will remain valid. Even though today we have Pakistan, Afganistan, Bangladesh, we still call it Indian subcontinent (some more pseudo secular people will call it south asian continent). The concept of India is much older than the term India used to convey it. Similarly the conept of Hinduism is much older than the term Hinduism or sanatan Dharma or any other name either hindus themselves or foreigner use to call it.

It is not that difficult to understand this unless you have been fooled by your own self deception mechanisms.


Somewhere I said that cotton, sugar cultivation, numerals, decimal systems etc were exported from India, so those who have less knowledge in such areas don't confuse that dost_mittar's saying "hindus are inclined to own good things" fits here.

Lots of ideas more than we believe currently were exported from India. The concept of Gym was exported from India to Greece (and that is why they used word Gymnosophists for Brahmins). People like dost_mittar and many others will be more surprised to know how much got exchanged because of the Persian Arab traders much before Islam was conceived.

Islam came when the Persia had lost its glory. India was in ancient times (mainly before christ and even some century afterwards) a kind of europe for most other civilizations. Fairly peaceful states with lots of wealth, arts and ideas. It is not a fairly tale, whatever records we have from those who travelled to India, suggest this.

Some one asked Urdu is not any Indian state's languge//what about Kashmir ???

Second how many Indians Read Write Speak or would like if they are Tamil Telugu Mallayalam Kannada and so on ..There are repulsive anecdotes of North Indian feeling worse than in foreign country .
May be 300 to 400 million Indian call hindi there Language .The closest language they can relate to is Urdu unknowingly .

presently Hindi And Urdu is Not heavily Sanskrtised nor Persianised Its only die hard bengali like NKG and Southy arjun who even dont have reading writing comprehending speaking skill even in hindi the (nonpersian ,sanskritised one )

I say go ahead sanskrit be national labguage just b/c prosno is common in south as it is in Bengal or dhan is in maharashtra as in bengal .But poor guy does not know that more indian say Dhan_Daulat the combination of Sanskrit and Urdu (perian)

bulleya#479:

You are addressing to the wrong person. I fully believe Urdu to be an Indian language, born, brought up and nurtured in India and by Indians.

The point that I was making was that some people do not like Urdu because they associate it with Muslims.

bulleya#478:

I really don't like repeating the same arguments again and again; but if you insist, here it goes.

The concept of a nation state is a relatively recent one; so, in that sense I agree with you.

But there is also this sense of a people sharing somethings in common and have a sense of common-ness. It has been there in India and that "India" would include all of Pakistan, Nepal, Srilanka, a part of Afghanistan and most (but not all) of India. This 'sense' is something intangible and hard to put a finger on it but, to an extent, it is what the outsiders called Hindus, although the term "Hindu" in this context does not mean religion but also Muslims, Christians, Sikhs or anyone else who shares this geographical and cultural space in this multicultural, multiracial, multifaith, multilingual, multiethnic and multieverything-else land. In other words, it is a notion which is deeply felt, at least by those who still call themselves Indians, or at least Hindus.

dost-mittar #: "so, this reluctance to claim Urdu as our own can only be attributed to our (your and my) cowardly ancestors who got defeated by Muslim invaders and it still rankles..."

can you, kindly, explain which muslim invader brought urdu into south asia (i will use india instead so as to not hurt your canadian, i mean indian nationalism)......

who was the muslim invader who brought urdu into india?......was it babur?.....was it lodhi?......was it ghaznavi or ghauri?......was it mohd bin qasim?.....

which languages did these people speak?.....were any of them conversant in urdu?.....did urdu even exist, when these guys were invading india?......did they even speak urdu in their courts.........

and how did urdu and hindi become so identical....is it a mere coincidence that these laguages developed, separately, yet are still nearly identical (in fact they are the same, if one sets aside nationalism)......

and how is urdu so similar to punjabi, while arabic and farsi and english aren't.......

could it be, could it just be that urdu, hindi and all the other south asian - sorry indian (forgot i was replying to you) - languages have the exact same root........they are rooted in an aryan base......

if they are rooted in an aryan base, then how in the world could they have been brought in by muslim invaders.....isn't their more of a chance that they came into existence as a mixture of various languages in the streets of south asia (sorry forgot again, india).......

dost-mittar # "As for the rest of your post, it is your old attempt to educate Indians that they are not a nation. Well, all I can say is "keep tryig" and you might convince yourself, if not anyone else. As for us, "we know"

..trust me, i have far better things to do than to educate indians.....or educate anyone else......you need to get out of your nationalistic obsessions......it is ok, if one is watching cricket or supporting a war....but not when one is discussing history.....

pls try to view things outside of the nationalistic context of india/pakistan, every now and then also.....otherwise you will remain paranoid that every argument is doubting your nationalism......

i am simply stating facts.....i.e. historically south asia has never been one nation........much like europe hasn't been one.....hence trying to take present-day south asian countries and map all of the region's history to them is quite ridiculous; including history of languages......

.....if you can provide facts to counter this argument, i am all ears, and will, happily change my point of view.....if you cannot, then why not accept the obvious....

.if you can do neither, then, well, then all i can say is, "another one bites the (nationalistic) dust......"

...one can either be a historian or a nationalist; not both...

#474 Posted by satya100 on July 11, 2008 5:23:32 am

south asians is what pakis started calling themselves after the post 9/11 mass deportations of pakis...

tahmed32:

Normally, we Indians are not only assimilative but eager to claim every good thing as our own, including cayenne (lal mirch) which came from Brazil; so, this reluctance to claim Urdu as our own can only be attributed to our (your and my) cowardly ancestors who got defeated by Muslim invaders and it still rankles.

dm: even the cow is not an indian animal (being domesticated in the middle east, and being brought over to india by migratory pastoral tribes a thousand years after it was domesticated..but dont break this anyone in india since that would be sacriligeous.

even bollywood is a cheap imitation of a similar sounding place in the US, but dont tell anyone that in india either.

after all, the only real history is that approved by the BJP political police.

We should desist using "South Asian" in place of Indian subcontinent. Indian subcontinent is ancient but South Asian is term is not even 15 year old, and its birth place is New England and not Indian subcontinent. South Asia might include Burma but Indian subcontinent does not.

bulleya#461:

It's all a matter of semantics. India (and Pakistan) have multiple languages and they are all Indian and Pakistani. My being a Punjabi does not preclude me from being an Indian (or a Punjabi-Indo-Canadian, to be more accurate) just as Punjabi being a language of Punjab does not preclude it from being an Indian or Pakistani language.

As for Urdu, I consider it as a genuinely Indian language, developed and nurtured in India, albeit with an imported script.

As for the rest of your post, it is your old attempt to educate Indians that they are not a nation. Well, all I can say is "keep tryig" and you might convince yourself, if not anyone else. As for us, "we know".

Re: # 470; Dost
[[even though it is your national language and is understood all over Pakistan.]]

my 'national' language is English sir....Urdu is what I fell in love with when I first went to Pakistan

and the third one (or should I say the first)...the maan boli...happens to be Punjabi (as you already know)

nkg##459:

If Urdu is not an Indian language (bastard or not, that's a separate issue), which country would you associate it?

cheemaji#458:

I meant what bulleya said in his post, namely, that Urdu is not the native language of Pakistanis, except for the Mohajirs, even though it is your national language and is understood all over Pakistan.

For most poor Muslims Urdu means "Nachte Nachte Dhaad Dishi Padya."

"considering the fact that india and pakistan are not historical entities, but, are new geogrpahical boundaries encompassing multiple civilizations....."

Adi Shankaracharya founded 4 mutts in 4 different corners of India. If one considers the places of pilgrimage then India even can claim part of Tibet just as China claims today.

It's not the language which is bardized but the people who talk like the above quotes are bastards in thought and attitude.

Sometimes wonder just like we subtely but strongly wish sun to rise tomorrow, Pakistanis are wishing destruction of India subtely. What might be the reason for this plate pissing? It's Islam, stupid! That is why they say there is nothing like moderate Islam or non practicing Muslims such as Murad Baig. These so called moderates and irreligious Muslims are more evil and dangerous. Good example of this is the dracula, MAJ.

Babur wrote his memoirs in Chughtai Turkish and the members of the ruling family also talked with each other in Turkish-but even for them speaking perfect Persian with a proper accent was essential in order to present themselves as civilized men.

What is the obsession of Punjabis with Urdu? I really don't get it.

And it is new to me that Urdu is more closer to Turkish than Persian. I mean your great Urdu poets cannot say a single couplet without using 5 Persian and 4 Arabic words, and here Bulleya is saying that Urdu is closer to Turkish.

Urdu is the language of the uncultured. People who could not speak Persian or Arby. It has no beauty nor does it have any elegance. Farsi and Sanskrit and any day much better than this gutter language of bastard children of the Arabs and Persians

#461 Posted by bulleya on July 10, 2008 11:48:55 pm

sorry captain clueless...I know it's really painful for pakis to be reminded of the reality but india, although not a country with clearly defined borders, is a historical entity...

It's indian ocean..east india company...red indians...not south asian ocean, east south asian company or red south asians...

get over it..

And yes 1234558900000000009812763573465734kkkkk years ago the people speaking Sanskrit pooped gold and diamonds...Happy now...

IMO Sanskrit is the most irritatingly sounding language. The phonetics are plain stupid...

dost-mittar #: "think that you would agree that nkg is half-right; Urdu is an imported language in Pakistan.;)"

....there is no indian or pakistani languages....anyone pushing indian and pakistani languages is too lost in the depth of nationalism to study history correctly.....considering the fact that india and pakistan are not historical entities, but, are, new geogrpahical boundaries encompassing multiple civilizations.....

hence there is no, "indian" or, "pakistani" language.....there are civilizational languages, or at best, provincial languages.......calling a language indian or pakistani is like calling a langauge european......

urdu was neither imported nor exported.....it grew from south asia.....and it is not mostly arabic or persian....it is actually closest to turkish (and locally to punjabi)......the alphabet of urdu is similar to that of persian and arabic.....

......urdu, thus, is the newest language to germinate from south asia - primarily from north india of what is today is india......actually one could argue that hindi is the newest language to germinate from south asia......anyone who can speak slang urdu, can easily speak hindi (at least 90% of it)......which is why hindi movies are so popular in pakistan.......

...there is, however, no doubt, that urdu is imported into pakistan.....its roots are in north india and not in pakistan.....in fact, even today only a tiny fraction of pakistan, speaks urdu as a first language.....

if we only look at % of speakers deciding the national language, then the national language of pakistan should have been bengali.......now in west pakistan, it would be punjabi, followed by other languages like pushto, saraiki, sindhi and then urdu......

in fact, urdu and hindi are so south asian that there is no other country in the world, other than india and pakistan where they are spoken, as national languages......this is true for nearly all south asian languages.....barring a few like tamil and pushto and bengali....primarily because these language are spoken in the border areas of south asia, thereby extending into neighboring border countries....which could, also geographically, be considered a part of south asia......

south asian history can never be understood or analysed, if one tries to map it to the current day geographical boundaries of two very new countries, called india and pakistan.......in the historical scheme of things, these borders will change again and again, in the future........

A lot of it comes from the old Avadhi and Braj dialects, at least 50%, it is a language born in Indian military camps and among the common people. it's fine if you don't want to accept it as an Indian language. I also accept Indian English as an Indian language.

NB,AkCheema, DM....
Ans: Neither the script, nor the base ( source of verbs and common nouns, adjectives) is Indian or close to Prakrit/Sanskrit. It is truth. People living in cow belt and Pakistan may not realize it. You have to know the regional languages and Sanskrit to understand that.
A language used for 500/600 years (whether it is of foreign origin or local one) looks quite native ( the way English is
becoming Indian language. You will find more English prominant writers than any other language. But Tagore earned Nobel for Bengali and couple of others had near miss.


May be couple of words derived from local language of Delhi...90% water and 10% milk, should be termed as milked water, not diluted milk......

From my experience (oriya, marathi... etc.) I find it alien to any of the Indian languages...I have referred an article to Majumder. The author had received early part of his education in Bihar and was very familiar with Urdoo. Anybody knows Bengali, will be a treat to read him.....
Let Majumder read it and explain. His view is not very different from you folks...

Hatred against whom? Neither myself nor my part of India is harmed by anybody (South-Western Bengal)....

Re: # 456; Dost

I disagree....though it is not clear to me what you mean by "imported into Pakistan".....

I think Lata Haya explains it well in her poem "tujhe naee sadi ka salaam urdu"....similar to what nb said too

gotta go...much as would like to stay but "tujh se bhi dil-fraib hein gham roozgaar ke"

Khuda hafiz....will return later

Urdu is a truly Indian language. Some of its roots are foreign, but so what, it is a citizen of India by birth.

cheemaji:

I think that you would agree that nkg is half-right; Urdu is an imported language in Pakistan.;)

Re: # 453; nkg

Urdu is an imorted language???

that's a distortion of the truth sir and you know it......Urdu is an Indo-european language with its roots very much in India....some mixing up of Arabic, Persian and Turkish was inevitable through 'imported' influences etc

Apart from the script and a few minor differences in vocabulary, it is indistinguishable (spoken word) from what you lot call Hindi

The so-called "Hindi" films are more "Urdu" than Hindi if you get my drift.....but then you already knew that

....don't let your hatred carry you away so far that you loose touch with reality..............or perhaps that has already occured....in which case I can only say sorry

?

Majumder....
Urdooo is not local language for any of the states in India (and Pakistan). It is bastardized version of Persian and Arabic (like the moslems in India and Pakistan are ********* Arabs/Persians). So, you can not match this behaviour with anything standard in India...
Urdooo, being a non local language, thus identified with the people who had brought it in India and primary user of it-the moslems....

Why we don't treat English in the same manner as Urdoooo?
Ans: British Govt. carried out major education reform in India (with help of Iswar Chandra Bandyopadhyay) and as we follow that, English has become language of knowledge. English is used as de-facto medium to study professional subjects (engineering, science,law, economics etc...). Furthermore, it is easier to learn.

If Sanskrit would have got state patronage after 1947, it could have been used as state language (like Mandarin in China, Hebrew in Israel). In one of essays, Parasuram (Raj Sekhar Basu) had discussed about language problem,involving Urdooo/Hindi of cow belt.
Most of the generic terms in regional languages are drawn from Prakrit/Sanskrit. Like Question- "Prasna" ( In Kannada, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese same). Now, cow belt people use Urdooo term of it "saowal", which as not fundamental link with any of the Indian languages...

Nkg moshai,

Do people in the ME (except desi expats) speak Urdu?

Regards

Re: # 438
Shah...

"why Urdooo is indetified with moslems and not Bengali with Hindus...".

Bengali language is local one for BD and WB people....It is not imported from middle east...Furthermore, Bengali is very rich in literature and structuraly similar to Sanskrit (very good phonetic distribution...)...

Re: # 447
Pinku

I have read new testament ( Bengali translation). Gospels are like Jataka stories. Some of the events ( miracles by Jesus) is stupid. As a whole, it is readable and harmless to large extent...

Pinnku...
Geeta never claims to be involved with God, hell, heaven etc...

Shah...
How have you managed Visa to travel in India?

Re: # 446

Actually its pretty clear she is trying to pretend to be an american soldier, at 0:43-0:55 she states that she knew the other couple that broke in, that he was her Lieutenant and another person from his bridgade.
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler

replying #445 Posted by bubba,

dear bubba,
I am against the theology of Islam or more precisely the psychology that Islam creates or nurtures. It doesn't mater whether they are Arabs or South Asian. Islam corrupts them all, the moment they identify themselves with it.

I think New testament is lot better than Kuran even if ideas are similar. Though frankly speaking I have only seen Kuran and not New Testament.

Theology of hate can not remain forever, if bulk of humanity and its knowledge survives a few more decades or at most a century, it will be gone. Most of the morality is very simple to understand and beyond a certain threshold of intelligence/awareness a free mind can not mistake in deciding what is better for society and what is not. Both you and me are part of this system and when we act, the system creates changes from with-in, so all this discussion is a natural process that is creating awareness. Only thing is that people should get to hear good ideas along with bad ideas and rest will be taken care of by our own mind which is destined to reason, irrespective of its capabilities.


I think I posted hare many commnts telling how early Brahmins were known to Greeks, also posted one story about Alexandar and Brahmins of Sindh. I also told Murad Baig that Hindus still recite the same 3000-3500 years old Mantras and even today they have those same Brahmins taking care of their religion (though in much worse ways). That should give you some idea of where hindus were much before Christ or Muhammad were born.

The idea of India was always there in the idea of Hinduism. They used to call it BharatVarsa, the land from Afganistan (east of Hindu Kush) to Bengal and south of Himalaya is a sub-continent. since ancient times it is a populous land with lots of population (contrary to Murad Baig's foolish idea that it was sparsely populated, He doesn't know that even in the times of ALexandar in 330BC the land of North India was so heavily populated and the Kings had such large Armies but used to fight less number of wars).

This sub-continent both population-wise, genetic code wise and even geographically is one in more than one sense. Do you think hindus were not there in all this land most of the time?? Nation do not become nation when they joined UNO or when they sign treaties, they are nation because of their common code of ethics, culture, laws and people. In that sense India is India since Hinduism is Hinduism and the rough date starts at 1500BC. Tomorrow if some western scholar confirms that it was 3000BC then you will have to accept that, if they claim that Harappa was a Dravid culture, you will have to accept that as well.

What is your argument in saying that Hinduism and India didn't exist till 700AD? Was earth round before people used to accept it?

Did europe exist before we started calling it europe?

Is it the idea of nation that is problem and even in that case if you say hindusim didn't exist till 700AD, how can it ever exist. If for you hinduism is not a religion, then it never existed? Essentially if somebody says he exist and you say you don't then you have problem not those people, even if you use a different name than what they use for their identity. You can have more than one name for same person, say I have a house name and a school name. Now if people who do not know my house name say I do not exist, then they are wrong and if they say so even if i tell them it is my house name then they are foolish.

Reply to # 370 of Shattered_Sun

Youtube movie clip "Sex in Mosque" can be viewed through the following link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQqZ4fr1cg

Shattered Sun ,

I couldn't read her comments where she says that she works with US armed forces.

From her body langauge , it looks she is narrating her true experience and she was talking about having sex with her " guy friend " and not a fellow soldier .

Nothing is unusual in this clip as thousands of similar experiences in the consumer based Western world can be found on internet.

In North America people call police staff as " officers ", and Army personnel is simply called soldiers or troops etc., so she was mentioning about police officers couple.

Re: # 443 Posted by pinku on July 9, 2008 10:48:30 am

pinku sahib, I am just trying to understand what you are saying. Are you against the theology of Islam? or are you against what Arabs did to hindus? If I understand you correctly the two are not separate. Is this assumption correct?

If you read the contents of the New Testament Bible, they suggest almost similar theology. If you listen to muslim theology carefully, they have tied their religious doctrine to Abrahim. Now, that makes it dangerous for those who do not subscribe to the one God concept. Does it not?

What I am suggesting is that maybe the world is changing so fast that the theology of hatred emanating from this one God world is coming to an end. Just maybe.

If you say that this is not the case, and that the theology of hate will remain forever, then we must work towards eradicating all the books that promote killings of those who do not believe in this one God theology. Now that is a tall order, is it not?

Maybe you are mad at this conversion concept. If that is the case, then both Muslims and Christians have forcefully converted the people of their captured territory. It just so happened that Arabs captured India, and there were hindus.

And of course Christians captured the Roman territories, and now they are all Christians, and some of them are Jews. Do you know how much the Jews were persecuted in the Christian dominated societies?

Yes, I know.... two evils don't make it right. And I am not suggesting that. What I am suggesting though is how can the book make people do what they usually do?

Finally, I hope that you are not confusing between Arabs invaders to Sind, and the Mughal Muslim invaders to India through the north western side of India. Because as you know the two invasions were for different reasons.

Or are you saying that since the invaders were muslims then both were equally bad? Hence, it was bad for India. But, pinku was there really an India, some 1300 years ago? or were there Hindus?

Please clarify.

Re #442 Posted by Shah2

Ghettoisation is not just living together, it is living together and living alienated and not fitting into the rest of the civic society. The degree of Ghettoisation can be decided based on degree of alienation or separation from host community/culture. Gujratis do seem to show lot of groupism but they mingle very well with rest of the society, say americans, english, or whetever. They do have differences like most of them are more towards vegetarins but it doesn't interfere in their relationship with rest of society.

replying bubba,

What is your question? You were troubled by word "hindu" i just answered it a bit.

Tell me if you are trying to say that Islam is not the reason why so many of these Islamic rulers were fond of killing and convertiong people. Old-testament and hence the Christians do carry similar ideologies, but there new testament was able to dilute most of it. In Islam the tribal ideology was never replaced by anything else and hence it remained the wild/tribal ideology till date.

You think that more than 1.2 billion muslims will find it so hard to defend the ideology itself if there was nothing wrong in it?? The ratio of intelligent people in 1.2 billion should be same as in rest of humanity, only thing that degrade things is the ideology, the attitude and psychology developed by this ideology.

Ideologies set the broad perspective, with-in which an individual create rest of the psychology based upon interactions/experience. Muslims are unfortunate that lot of freedom of thought is hijacked by Islam and so they tend to create a confined psychology. Idea of a book from God itself is very absurd, just to keep this idea intact a religion will have to invent so many foolish things and foolish mentality. This problem is with Bible as well, and even for some people with Gita as well. But the more rigidly you protect such foolish thoughts the worse will be the situation of adherents.

Muslim Ghettoisation...is the topic


Iftekhar ahmed is Indian muslim has he lived in U.K. or his impression based on media showed to him .Many white britishers surprisingly dont subscribe to this hate .

"A ghetto is described as a "portion of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure


So muslims in U.K. are minority so are non muslim Asians.

members of ANy minority community can be considered living in ghetto

There are localised areas for Sikhs Bengali Gujratis .Muslims form as a group largest

Just one doctor or professor if they do moving out to the suburbia does not make ghetto disappear. is Living in local area for social reason shamefull?

A janitor sweeper living in suburb is a pride ?

Re: # 439

Hari hot air

I have to go to

BNarsimha rd.
(north boag road )T nagar Chennai 600017

to learn khak sari from a brahmin guru .can you give me the direction

i have

Ref Mullah32 #315

By the way, the number of Nobel Prizes in Physics earned by Muslims is zero.

Rememebr that the only thing the Sunnis, the Shias and everybody else agrees on is that Ahmadiyas are not Muslims and Abdus Salam was an Ahmadiya. Thus he is a non-entity in Pakistan. He couldn't even get a job in Pakistan and worked in Italy.

That being the case, there is no hope that S. Chandrasekhar would ever be acknowledged by anybody in Pakistan as a native son let alone celebrated, despite being born in Lahore. Contrast that with the Bangladeshis who claim Rabindranath Tagore as their own and celebrate Amartya Sen.

That is the trouble with people who believe that all wisdom for etrnity to come is contained in one book that was written by an illiterate trader 1400 years ago. I am trying to read that book to see where it contains detailed construction plans for ICBMs, geostationary satellites and fusion reactors. I find that all rights of women are contained in a chapter titled "The Cow"!

Ref Mullah32 #315

[#313 and what have the brahmins accomplished that they are so proud of?]

The only two Nobel Prizes in Physics awarded to Indians were earned by brahmins. To top it off, the two were related to each other as uncle and nephew.

[convince the rest of the duds in india that the rich and powerful are rich and powerful because they were good in their previous incarnation, and that the poor and oppressed are poor and oppressed as punishment for being evil in their previous incarnation!]

Brahmins were seldom rich and seldom were kings.

[but then, i am merely a lying muslim scoundrel, what do i know. :-) ]

You are correct about you being a lying Muslim scoundrel who knows nothing!

Re: # 401

Lets face it i love urdu that is not b/c i hate or have to hate or i love bangali ANY less .

bengali sply spoken by bengali girls sound very sweet !

I dont know why urdu spl after Partition got identified with Muslim and not bengali with Hindus.

you cant change the fact persian turko islamic influnced india and why not .great part of last mellineum 'polluted'it .As nehru believed how can you go village by village city town neighbour wise seperating hindu /muslims (foreigners even after 1000yrs)from each other.Total excanhga was logistially not possible


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Ravish Siddiqui
Raza Hamdani
Raza Qureshi
Razi Akhtar 'Shauq'
Razi Haider
Razi Tirmazi
Riaz Khairabadi
Rifat Sultan
Roshan Nanda
Rustom Sehgal Wafa

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S
Saadullah Shah
Saba Afghani
Saba Sikri
Sabir Dutt
Sabir Jalalabadi
Saeed Rahi
Saeed Shahidi
Sagar Azmi
Sagar Khaiyyami
Sagar Nizami
Sagar Siddiqui
Sahir Bhopali
Sahir Hoshiarpuri
Sahir Ludhianvi
Saifuddin Saif
Sajan Bihari
Salaam Machhlii Shehri
Saleem Kausar
Salman Akhtar
Saqib Lucknawi
Sardar Anjum
Sarvesh Chandosi
Sauda, Mohammed Rafi
Seemab Akbarabadi
Sehba Akhtar
Shadab Lahori
Shad Azeemabadi
Shahbaz Naqvi
Shahid Kabir
Shahid Meer
Shahryar
Shakeb Jalali
Shakeel Badayuni
Shamim Jaipuri
Shamim Karhani
Shamim Shahabadi
Shan ul Haq Haqi
Shanti Saba
Shayar Lucknawi
Shaz Tamkanat
Shefta
Shehzad Ahmed
Sheri Bhopali
Shevan Bijnauri
Shibali
Shohrat Bukhari
Sikander Ali Wajd
Siraj Aurangabadi
Siraj Lucknawi
Sudarshan Faakir
Sufi Ghulam Mustafa Tabassum
Suroor Barabankvi
Syed Shafaq Shah Chishti

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Tabish Dehlvi
Tahir Faraz
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Taseer
Taskeen Qureshi
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Tasneem Farooqui
'Tashna', Alam Tab
Tilok Chand Mehroom

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U
Umeed Fazli
Unknown

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Wafa Roomani
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Wajeeh Irfani
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Wazeer Agha

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Y
Yagna Yaas Changezi
Yahya Jasdanwalla
Yamini Das

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Z
'Zafar', Bahadur Shah
Zafar Gorakhpuri
Zafar Iqbal
Zafar Kaleem
Zaheer Anwar
Zahid
Zahoor Nazar
Zahra Nigaah
Zaka Siddiqui
Zakia Ghazal
Zameer Kazmi
Zauq, Ibrahim
Zia Jalandhari
Zubair Rizvi

Re: # 436; nkg sahib

I know what the truth is....question was if the "heretic ass-adite" does/did?

Regards

Re: # 407
AKCheema
"do you realise this the line being brandished around the various RSS/hindutva sites?...that is precisely what they wanted you to say and...... lo and behold you said it bro!!
"...

But this is truth.

There is nothing fundamental for current "Hindus" ( Vedas?-No. Veda do not say about present day gods... Upanishad?- No.They talk about formless God. Geeta? -No. it do not talk about God. Any specific rituals/festivals? -No, It differs with region to region?

Re: # 433

already mian!!.........pity!

Majumder...
"Shantry" ta ki Sanskrit theke neoa? Otherwise correct it...

test only a test only a test only a

Re: # 416
Tahir...
"Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen! Get it?"

Any authentic source of information (if you are taking about Japanese attack during WWII)?

US was not military super power during WWII (not even in military technology) .USA was not fighting war to occupy some other country's land. It was Japs, who, after conquering 1/2 of East Asia and China, faced the problem of logistics and were supposed to loose. These fools (Japs and Germans and their slave Italians) thought to replicate the model of British empire as early as possible....
Japs were supposed to be punished (their attrocity against Chinese was beyond human limit). I don't think Japs should treat Nagasaki/Horisima as injustise to them...

#380...
Tahir...

Is the head to toe covering dress code part of that protection scheme?

Protection from whom? Police (shantry in Sanskrit) are meant to provide protection to ordinary citizens.
Why Quoran has to provide extra guidelines for that?
Are you referring to sexual harrasment from close relatives?

Tahir Mamu,

Following is for you. There are well meaning pinkish people here. This perspective of Indians is spreading all over.

===========
Avarana – An Introduction

The author
Santeshivara Lingannaiah Bhairappa is a Kannada writer. He is the author of the popular and much discussed book Avarana.

He retired after teaching at the Mysore based Regional Institute of Education, Sardar Patel University and NCERT, New Delhi.
He was born in a poor Brahmin family in Santeshivara village in Hassan district on July 26, 1934. Now he lives in Mysore. He is married and has two sons.
In college, he majored in Philosophy. He was awarded a Doctor of Philosphy (PhD) from the Maharaja Sayajirao University of Baroda for his thesis Satya Mattu Soundarya (Truth and Beauty).


The novel Avarana
The Mysore University's dictionary gives the meaning of Avarana as cover, environment, ambience and surroundings.

In his novel, the term Avarana has also been used to imply falsehood and deliberate attempt to hide the truth. He describes it as a novel based on medieval Indian history. His earlier novel Sartha spoke about ancient history. (More details at the end)

It uses the 'novel within a novel' technique to tell a bunch of stories.
The book revolves round the lives of Lakshmi, a Vokkaliga who has converted to Islam and is now called Raziya, her husband Amir and Prof Narayan Shastri, teacher, speaker and their family friend.
Lakshmi and Amir are students of the Film and Television Institute of India. They fall in love and marry. Lakshmi's father Narasimha Gowda opposes the marriage and conversion. Prof Shastri who happens to hail from Lakshmi's village supports them. Amir becomes a documentary film maker and Raziya becomes a script writer.
However, the husband and wife do not have an easy relationship. Their ideological differences dry up the love between them. They
do not easily agree with each other and have a very argumentative relationship. When young, both of them had leftist leanings. They believed Marxism is the force that liberates the people from their economic and ideological poverty. During college days, progressive thought is the basis of their life and not religion.
However, as years go by, Raziya starts developing an interest in anti –Communist, rightist thought. Amir slowly becomes religious and anti –liberal.
Raziya's work makers her travel. She cant wear a Burkha or follow the Ghosha system. She wears a bindi now and then. She has trouble learning Urdu well. Amir's parents oppose her behaviour. She argues and does not obey them. They use the services of the Tablikh volunteers to counsel her. She fights with them too.
Finally, Raziya and Amir move out and set up a separate home. They hire a maid to cook. Amir's parents bring up the couple's son Nazir.
Raziya's father Mr Gowda dies in his village, unknown to her. Prof Shastri informs her of his silent demise. She suddenly feels the urge to visit the village. The village attracts her. Prof Shastri's father tells her that her father Mr Gowda had taken up serious studies of Islam, Hinduism and medieval history in the last few years. She searches her ancestral house and comes across many books her father had collected and several notes that he had made.
The shock of her father's death, and her new found religious leanings make her study the books and notes. She stays in the village for four years. The village is so remote that it does not have a telephone.
Meanwhile, her son Nazir is growing up. He studies Petro Chemical engineering and takes up a high paying job in Saudi Arabia. He becomes a devout, ritualistic Muslim. Later, Prof Shastri and Raziya arrange his marriage to Aruna, Prof Shastri's daughter.

Novel inside the novel
At this time, Raziya starts writing a historical novel. The main novel and Raziya's novel are weaved together. They are narrated simultaneously.
Raziya's speaks about the reign of Aurangazeb. The main character in the story is the Prince of Devgadh, a princely state in the Aravali mountains. He is captured by Aurangazeb's commander Mansabdar Ejaz Ahmed Khan. He is converted at knife point and taken as a slave. He is first used as a male prostitute by Khan. After some time, he sells him to a richer Masabdar Moinuddin Tarazi. He castrates the Hero of the novel and keeps him as a slave in his Zenana.
There he meets a benevolent lady, Udaypuri Mahal, a Hindu wife of the Mansabdar. She treats him with care and motivates him to learn Farsi language and religious texts. His teacher Haji Hamdullah, is a learned man. He not only teaches him the basics of Islam, but also the finer aspects of politics and Palace intrigue. Meanwhile the Hero learns that his wife has also been made a slave by one of the Mansabdars. She is a slave to one of the Aurangazeb's wives.

The scene shifts to the main novel. Prof Shastri's mother dies and he is not allowed to perform her last rites as he has eaten beef sometime in his life and defended his action. Prof Shastri however decides to complete her last rites in Prayag near Kashi and travels to that place. His visit is also combined with a lecture he has to give in the Benaras Hindu University. Prof Shastri's sister and brother in law also travel to Kashi to immerse the ashes in the holy river. Raziya travels with them. She is planning to take up field work, in support for her novel.

In Raziya's novel, the Hero witnesses Aurangazeb's style of functioning. The King orders the Kashi Vishwanath temple be plundered. Haji, who is the record keeper of the Kingdom, is asked to go to Kashi to witness and document the event. The Hero also gets to travel with him.
The events in Kashi are described in detail. Haji and the Hero are given royal treatment and they travel back to Delhi. Here the Hero's mind undergoes a change and he decides to run away with and wage a war against Aurangazeb. His wife has two children from the Mansabdar, apart from an earlier one from the Hero. The Hero plans to take his wife and her children along. He plans to seek the help of Shivaji, Chatrasal and Bundelkhand rebels.
Raziya's novels ends here.

Meanwhile, Amir has married again, without divorcing Raziya. His new wife is half his age and not well educated. She is a Muslim and teaches Urdu in a school.
Later, she participate in an all India conference on harmony along with Prof Shastri.
There, she accuses Marxist historians of deliberately covering up the truth of the medieval ages (Hence the novel's name 'Avarana'). She makes strong allegations that Muslims Kings of medieval periods like Tippu Sultan and Aurangazeb were inhuman and anti Hindu. They levied taxes, forcefully converted people to Islam and massacred those who refused to convert. They also destroyed Hindu temples and built Masjids and prayer grounds on the place where there were temples. She also says that for all such actions, they had the sanction of their religion.
She suggests that communal harmony is not possible without exposing the truth of the atrocities of Muslim Kings and the "fundamentalism enshrined in Islam".
Amir is also attending the conference. He gets drunk and tries to have sex with her in her hotel room. She refuses and sends him back to his room.

Towards the end, she tries to publish her novel but there are no takers. Finally, the book is published and there are many protests. The government decides to ban the book and arrest her.
In a twist in the tale, Amir comes to know of it and saves her. He makes her evade arrest and is fighting to get her bail and seek back the books taken away by the police.
Avarana ends with a list of reference books that Raziya prepares. She says she has used these books to find facts to support her in writing her novel.

Issues raised in the novel

The novel reinforces many prejudices held among the people about Islam and the rule of Muslim Kings. Dr Bhairappa also tries to bring out the ritualistic differences between Hinduism and Islam.
The first taste of it is obtained in the first page. Amir is staying in a government guest house in Hampi and is sick of vegetarian food. He demands chicken biriyani from the cook. When the cook refuses, Amir threatens to complain to higher authorities. He says he will "feel weak" without non vegetarian food.
Beliefs and prejudices about Jehad, Iconoclasm (idol worship) marriage, polygamy, and Talaq, Sunnat, Zenana, and women's status in Islam, conversion and the fusion between the religious head and political head of the state are also reinforced.
The author makes fun of rationalists and communist thinkers. Some people say Prof Shastri's character is based on writer U R Ananthmurthy. Prof Shastri is pictured as someone who does not have strong ideological commitments and can adjust himself to any environment. He has married a Catholic from England, but wants his son and daughter to be brought up according to Hindu rituals.
He can be rational and defend his beef eating. But he can also be religious and travel to Prayag to perform the last rites of his mother. He lacks courage and does this secretly. His head is shaved during the last rites. He later travels to America to hide his bald head and comes back to India after carefully growing and dying his hair.
Secular and Marxist writers are shown as if they support Muslim fundamentals but not Hindu religious leaders.
The author also ridicules some things like the Zenana and polygamy system. He also makes fun of castrating the slaves. One full page is used to describe the process of castration. The word "castrated slave" to describe the Hero, appears at least 20 times in the novel. This probably refers to the Hindu masses who silently suffered the alleged atrocities by Muslim kings.
In the preface to Avarana, Dr Bhairappa has said he has proof for all his claims in the novel. He has also reiterated it in many other interviews and public functions.
"None of the historic facts mentioned here are the products of my imagination. I have historical basis and proof for each of these facts", Dr Bhairappa says in the novel.

Criticism
The book has received a great amount of criticism, from writers and critics.
Critics have said the book is based on guess work and not on facts. Secondly, the book does not look at events in their proper context. Thirdly, the book tries to push forth the retrograde Brahminical agenda.
Fourthly, the author adamantly tries to force the reader that all that is said in the book is truth and nothing else is.
Prajavani Kannada daily published a series of debates about the book.
Film maker N S Shankar has brought out a book "Avarana Anavarana" (Unraveling The Cover ).
Dr Ananthmurthy has described the book as an expression of fascist agenda. He has also said that Dr Bhairappa has acted as a debater in writing this book, he has said.

Kannada Sahitya Parishat president Chandrashekar Patil has said that Dr Bhairappa has not tried to say that whatever said in the book is his opinion. Dr Bhairappa argues that what ever he says is the truth. It is difficult to accept such claims as being historic facts discovered by a researcher. It is, at the most a record of a writer's personal beliefs, Prof Patil has said.
However, Dr Bhairappa continues to maintain that he is happy the book has started a debate as to the role of Muslim kings in the medieval period.

Re: # 428

the "heretic ass-adite" has already (repeatedly) affirmed his admiration for Corporal Adolf H, and his disdain for the victims

(e.g.....regarding the superiority of the German language...he wrote "ask any Talmud-reader")

Regards

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Re: # 424; HPsauce

is the last word of your post in the vernacular for us mere mortals or does it have some special significance in the ultimate martial language?

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#380 Posted by tahir on July 8, 2008 9:54:55 pm


The Qur'an explicitly says that men are the protectors and providers of women! No other system gives women the rights Islam gives.


That explains why muslims women are doing so much better than women of any other religion...

I always wondered about the large number of muslims women who were business leaders or accomplished in other ways...

Mulla Mandar Multankar,

Why do you write these long sentences and very very long paras? Your evey third sentence is same as the first one.

Answer these questions?

1. Why is it hard to practice democracy where majority is Musim?

2. Is Islam demands spreading it?

3. In the case of Islam does the spreading happens mainly by physical force?

4. Does that mean Islam has to excessively depend on the armed forces?

============

Above questions were Islam applied laterally, ie, spreading across the land. Similar questions are there for Islam acting vertically.

1. Does the Islam demand the state, nation country to be Islamic wherever Muslims are in majority?

2. Does that mean politics in Islamic state means proving who is more Islamic?

3. Does that mean people have to be constantly be judged and classified according to their purity?

4. What happens to the people who are little less pure such as Ahmedi and Shias?

5. To keep the society pure does Islam demands the state to be a police state?

6. Since the police are not so well armed and well organized or disciplined, does policing work also done by army in Islamic society?

.
.
.
=========

You see Mullaji with red lipstick and pink maskara, Islamic society is not police state but army state. The people when subjugated to such atrocious ideology and its modus-operndi for long time then they internalize it. People start asking for army rule.

Baki tumhari badbad is only hot air and pile of paper shit.

Contribution of islam to china. From dawn of today
/////////////////

China kills five Muslims training for 'holy war' BEIJING, July 9 (AFP): Chinese police killed five Muslims in its far northwest who were planning to wage a “holy war� against the nation's majority Han population, the official Xinhua news agency reported on Wednesday. Five were killed and 10 arrested on Tuesday when police raided their hide-out in Urumqi, the capital of the Muslim-populated Xinjiang region. “The suspected criminals that police killed and nabbed... were from a 'holy war' training group,� Xinhua said, citing an Urumqi police spokesman. (Posted @ 15:25 PST)

Islam and civilisation.

Civilisation die very hard, even after thousands of years of foriegn rule, hinduism survived. Evenm after years of japanese rule, chinese civilisation survived. Now both are flourishing.

Take the case of the heart of islamic world, suadi arabia, even with all the wealth of the oil, especially from teh seventies, what did they do with it squandered it all. See now, the muslims have ordered 3 A380s, in executive comnfiguration, for the travels of the muslims shiekhs. The money was never spend in a wise way, educating the people, creating centres of learning, creating a propsperous society rich in lasting values.

The reason is simple, there is nothing called islamic civilisation, islam is all about following the book, that does not leave any room for anything.

Look at the case of simple art like painting, per koran no human or living thing should be painted, islamic art has been reduced to caligraphy, stylised writing of teh words from koran.

This happened in every walks of life, stimied and strangled by the book.

Thsi has reduced to dost mitter claiming that islamic contribution is jilebi, well it is an iranian dish dating to pre-islamic times.

Islamic contribution to man kind is zilch.

Sorry I am wrong here, all of teh security develeopments of today, especially the unmanned aerial vehicles are in fact due to jihad, a true islamic contribution. Yes, islam has contributed to teh development of weapons to contains jihadis, if you consider that as an islamic contribution.

Re: # 418; harish mian

the "heretic ass-adite" is no apologist sir; he thrives upon reading his fan mail every evening after work.....take that away and he has no purpose in life left

#416 by tahir

Tahir mian, but I expected this defense from you. You apologists are very quick to shift the blame to the nearest convenient scapegoat. Never will you accept your crimes on their own merit. There'll always be a "root cause" argument ready to be bandied about at the drop of a hat.

Re: # 416; heretic asadite
writes:
[[Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen! Get it?]]

I don't know about harish mian, but I DO SO get it sir.

by the same token, the rest of the sh** was ALLOWED to happen too??

Re: # 406 Hairish Hydra

"...experiments might have gone wrong..."

I said MIGHT HAVE!

Look how wrong the American dream has gone! Count the invasions, the deaths, the tears. No, YOU are trivializing and apologising!

The sleepy U.S. defence system has neither answered questions nor held responisble for these acts. The enemy is within but its being hunted elsewhere by giving it different names.

Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen! Get it?

Re: # 413; heretic asadite

"hajjam" nahin "najjar" kahyiye sahib!..........btw, in your neck of woods the former does double up as the latter

One section added to the article regarding the process of corruption that is often overlooked:

Whenever civilian governments have been allowed to come in and have tried to do for the common man what no military general ever has, nationalize industry, start land reforms, enhance employment, improve literacy and provide healthcare, and other social benefits and public works, they have been punished by those very powers that reward these military thugs. Regardless of the bribe sponsored “growth�, the end results of military rule in Pakistan has always been a disastrous catastrophe for the country and the vast majority of its impoverished people. The Zia era ended with networks of drugs, weapons, sectarianism and terrorism taking root in this nation, and the Musharraf era continues with the phenomena of suicide bombings not to mention the acute economic crisis the country faces.

Generals writing as military apologists claim that the civilians were "given the chance" but failed to do anything. Their very claim implies that ruling is the right of the military, whereas "chances" might be given to civilians to prove themselves. This however is not how civilized constitutional governments work but military generals power drunk and arrogant do not seem to realize this. It is no surprise that these generals of the Pakistan Army, who write articles upon articles in defense of their interference in state affairs know little of constitutions or fulfilling its legal and moral obligations as it relates to their institution. Being a sociologist, I know how a society works and how institutions interact, when civilians are given a "chance" to work in government, work that is subservient to the military power over them, they can go in one direction and one direction alone if they are to survive and that is follow the military line, which inevitably leads to corruption. If they reject the military line, and its overlordhip they are sent home packing. Only one civilian politician emerged strong enough to move the masses against this military, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and he was killed in a most barbaric manner by Zia ul Haq, the military dictator. Over time institutions mould these civilian politicians, they learn their lesson of survival under military domination and they adapt into corrupt mini-dictators who are unanswerable to the public whose façade they present after being allowed in office, the elections under military rule are similar to the “referendum� trick employed by military dictators to grant themselves legitimacy. In other words military domination has transformed our state institution into a dictator and corruption producing factory. Without extracting the military from political affairs, the state institution in Pakistan can never mature enough to produce democracy or representatives that answer to the people. In other words, it can never incorporate the people into the power equation. Even saints entering into the current military dominated political structure would end up corrupt and impotent. Such has been the process through which the Pakistan Army has destroyed Pakistan’s civil institution, while being wholeheartedly, both materially and morally, supported by the Americans.

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Re: # 408
Masadi...

Let the americans write about the first topic. What about something close at home? Some dazzling proof of islamic contribution in Pakistan...
From Gandhar of 200 BC to Taliban/Islam infested FATA/NWFP- transition from barbarism to civility.....

Re: # 410

masadi saab, we heard you the first time saab or are you going to continue this sadness saab

i have resubmitted my article with the following comments to chowk staff " ....you all are being miserable swines by censoring all my submitted articles"

Now they are sure to publish it !

Re: # 399 Oh Maj!
"Highly entertaining and illumnating exchanges. Please keep up the good work, sirs!"

Where is the PUN you intended?

Please strike the name of this other operator off your esteemed list since the boy is a devoteee of the cut-n-paste goddesses! Kali dictates to him; why is Kali acting this way these days in Kolkata?

I would like to inform you all tht chowk staff have censored two new articles of mine that were submitted to them for publication, both are availble in my ilog

i) America's "World War" factory
ii) Kargil and other mess-ups of the Pakistan Army.

Re: # 395; the heretic asadite writes:
[[Your hindu friends will be so angry now! Of course, all those folks who lived around the Indu river (Indus) were loosely labelled as HINDUS! It is NOT a religion!]]

do you realise this the line being brandished around the various RSS/hindutva sites?...that is precisely what they wanted you to say and...... lo and behold you said it bro!!

#390 by tahir

You see, in trying to create newer technology, some people's plane-train-automobile experiments might have gone wrong! Who knows, this may all be in the name of scientific progress that is as yet hidden from you!

You're trivializing the deaths of 4000 innocent people as an experiment gone wrong? Yaar Tahir, this is the height of denial. All your linguistic gymnastics wouldn't be able to save you from the charge that you're an apologist par excellence.

Tahir Mamu,

Why do they kdnap little boys? What Nkg is saying is true?

MINGORA: Unidentified armed men gunned down a religious leader in the Charbagh tehsil of Swat on Monday night, police sources told Daily Times on Tuesday. Charbagh Darul Uloom Administrator Maulvi Masood was killed in an ambush, the officials said. Meanwhile, 18 boys, aged 12-18, have been abducted from the Charbagh during the last week, Daily Times has learnt. The families of the boys informed the media about the kidnappings. The families suspect militants are carrying out abductions to use the boys for suicide attacks. shahzad alam

Re: # 378
DM...
Brahmins are again divided in several categories. Majority of the priests, cooks in the temples etc... are definitely "low life" like Sudras. Shashtris and other branch of brahmins excelled in various fields due to their discipline and culture. In student hostels (and some roadside hotels in and around Calcutta), the chief cook used to be brahmins...
Couple of concepts are definitely excellent
4 Stages of life, Gothra system to trace family lineage etc...
Some of the problems..."the society should have been little more female oriented" ( like the tribals in north east)...

Tahir Ji,

We also know this that recent converts are the most fantic. They compensate their lack of understanding due to alien language words, words deeply seepedin the alien culture by wearing their new faith on the sleeves. That explains charasi Iqbal's and drunkard dracula's fanaticism. Does this apply to you as well, Mamuji?

Tahirji,

Did prophet also annuled his son's marriage for the same reason? The mullas in the gaziyabad must have considered the precedent. What do you think?

Regarding Urdooo...
Urdooo is not fit for civilised humans, specifically Indians. Most of the Indian languages are rich with various types of literatures drama,poetry, novels etc...and phoneticaly well balanced....

To DM, BJ and other cow belt people...
If possible,collect the english translation of a Bengali writer called Parasuram (Rajsekhar Basu). In one of the essays, he had explained the challenge Indians face, while formulating language policy, post 1947....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajsekhar_Bose


Like "Politics is last ...of devils", Islam is last....of ras****....(that may not true for their descendants)...So, this Iqbal etc.....

tahir Mamu ko thoda tung kiya!

Mamuji forgive and forget!

Seriously dont you think the religion of peace has caused so much destruction of peace that it is now high time we parmently make it rest in peace.

Tahir mian, Truth et al,

Highly entertaining and illumnating exchanges. Please keep up the good work, sirs!

Regards

Muslim ghetoise so that they can chod their daughter in laws, eat some jilebi, have hukka-pani and then sing ghazals while shitting in front of Taj Mahal.

Muslim clerics annul rape victim's marriage
9 Jul 2008, 0319 hrs IST, Manjari Mishra,TNN

LUCKNOW: In a chilling reminder of the Imrana case, yet another young woman from Muzaffarnagar who allegedly fell victim to her father-in-law’s sexual assault faces a bleak future after mullahs called for the annulment of her marriage.

On July 6, Salma (25), an unlettered mother of two kids, returned to her parental home in Islamnagar, Muzaffarnagar, after she was allegedly raped by her father-in-law over a period of six months. Salma’s father, Raisuddin, filed a criminal complaint with the police under section 376-506 IPC in Ghaziabad, and the accused, Salma's father-in-law Akbar, has been jailed.

But in the process her four-year-old marriage to Azad has virtually ended after clerics ruled their reunion as 'haraam'.

"A woman who has had a sexual liaison with her husband's father cannot be his consort anymore. A divorce is a must," Mufti Maulana Imran, senior cleric from Darul Uloom Deoband, said on Monday after his view was sought. The prescribed punishment in the case, he maintained, was 'sangsar' or public stoning of the victim and the culprit until death.

In 2007, Imrana's case, which was broadly similar with the clerics declaring her marriage null and void after she was raped by her father-in-law, had led to a tsunami of criticism of the mullahs who have been treading cautiously on inter-personal issues ever since.

Maulana Khurshid Alam Qazmi, another mufti from Darul Uloom, when contacted by TOI, refused to discuss "a religious edict" on phone.

"In any case there are so many fatwas issued from Deoband that it's next to impossible for me to remember any details," he said.

But Mufti Imran was more forthright. "Such a relationship as in the particular case is totally immoral and can't be condoned," he told reporters on Monday.

"The couple must separate. They are free to marry any other man or woman on a later date but their nikah is void under Islam," he said.

The mufti also ruled that "children in this case (Salma has one two-year-old and a four-month-old son) must be looked after by the father who is entitled to their custody". The woman, the mufti clarified, "cannot be exonerated for such a thing cannot happen without her consent."

According to Raisuddin's FIR lodged on July 5, Akbar was sexually abusing Salma for the last six months. It says Akbar told her that if she opposed his overtures he would have her father and brother killed. He also used firearms to coerce her. "The husband is under the father's influence and can't protest.

Moreover, Akbar has promised him another wife," the FIR says. Salma, who was virtually under house arrest, spoke about her trauma to a visiting aunt and asked her to approach Raisuddin and save her.

Re: # 395:

First ime you are right Tahir Mamu.

"It is NOT a religion!"

World needs to abolish religion a concept of desert evil lands. What should prevail is Dharma, and it will!

Re: # 389 Uncouth-101

"Some tmes I wonder, if only solution for your ailment is nuking only, but then we will be hurting innocent poor Abduls and Salmas. Better would if we some how rabid fanatics such as you need to be separated in a corner and put on a space ship never to come back."

CHOWK-readers, Uncouth-101 needs a one-way ticket to the moon; please contribute 'chanda' generously.

Re: # 372 Bobby
"Can anyone explain where did this word "hindu" come from?"

Your hindu friends will be so angry now! Of course, all those folks who lived around the Indu river (Indus) were loosely labelled as HINDUS! It is NOT a religion!

Re: # 357 O.J. Simpson
"And the most likely origin of the jalebi is in India, in Punjab."

Oye, khush keeta ee putra!

Re: # 356 O.J. Simpson

"The Taj Mahal was built on the misery of thousands of Hindus..."

And your dad was a forced-labourer, and you lost your Sang-e-Marmar mountain to the Mughals?

"Ghazals oroginated as a means for seducing (and later sodomizing) little boys"

Who seduced YOUu little O.J.? Tell me and I will make sure he sings in tune next time.

"Urdu is a bastardized language that is grammatically Sanskrit-derived, with foreign words thrown in."

Well, I'll leave the 'bastard' alone to be defended by those who ignore other regional languages!

Re: # 356 O.J. Simpson
"Taj Mahal, Ghazal, Urdu, Qawaali, Kurta Pajamas, tandoori cooking, Jalebi, Islam"

Nobody shares your myopic vision!

I'd love to wear kurta-payjama as a Muslim, and sit outside the Taj Mahal singing an Urdu ghazal that turns into a qawwali after I consume tandoori food and top it off with hot jalebis. Then, I will laaahve to head for the nearest mosque to offer my thanks to Allah.

What's your problem O.J.?

Re: # 385: carly is as Mulla Madanji Multankar says is ultimate racist white supremist. the scriot of the bhashan was probably given to her with the Saudi lifafa in other hand. go and check if she has any relationship with saudi prince. A billion dollar contract was given by Saudis to AT&T/Lucent because of her.

Re: # 355 O.J. Simpson

"The caste system isn't leading to planes being flown into buildings and subways being blown up....you know..the type of things muslim ghettoisation leads to"

Of course, your caste system is the jewel of a hidden crown!

You see, in trying to create newer technology, some people's plane-train-automobile experiments might have gone wrong! Who knows, this may all be in the name of scientific progress that is as yet hidden from you!

Every nation must experiment. Now go play with yourself Tommy.

Tahir,

"The protection of His system is God's ultimate promise. Millions know His Word by heart, and send blessings on all the Prophets daily. What have YOU got to offer to the world with your caste-based fairy-tales? We will find out soon who wins and which system gains victory."

Protection of his system in Pakistan is not happening so seems s/he/it is not keeping his promise. Parroting of alien words without understanding is the root cause. You call it Merciful but you do not show mercy to Sambhaji, Gurus and their little children, Prithwirajs, Rupin katyal or POWs. Compare that to the treatment to 97K of yours for almost two years. The words you recite is like ultimate drug.

Look in the mirror at tell us if there is no castes in Pakistans. Do you know MukhtarMai and the reason for the gang rape? You are the most castiest and racist society. Arabs are the most racist? Ask how they pay to whites compared to brown with similar experience and qualification.

Some tmes I wonder, if only solution for your ailment is nuking only, but then we will be hurting innocent poor Abduls and Salmas. Better would if we some how rabid fanatics such as you need to be separated in a corner and put on a space ship never to come back.

#385 Contd...
"...boston brahmin is just and adjective"
The adjective is used to imply that "people were good in arts, literature, science, education and various cultural activities" like Brahmins.

Like islmaic pilgrimage to Mecca is biggest of all pilgrimages (and biggest stupidity). So, Mecca is used as adjective....

Re: # 352 O.J. Simpson

"Caste system in India is NO BUSINESS of Muslims, you bloody idiot."

No it IS our business just like you've made Pakistan and Islam your illegal trade!

"It does not apply to Muslims. And Hindus are not trying to convert Muslims."

You have nothing to offer to a Muslim; your sources are diluted and corrupted beyong recognition. Go reform those and see the inherent ruth behind them. Surely you will come to know then what the word ISLAM means!

"So keep your damn trap shut about what is none of your damn business."

No need to foam at the mouth! Control your attacker agents first Maj. Ajeya!

Re: # 351 Mad-in-India

"India being the IT hub.."

You mean 'IT' as in 'khusra' or 'heejrah'? Boy, what a dub-khaRabba HUB!

We have a very happening HE-hub here!

Re: # 377
Shah...

Your reference to Mogul is correct.
But that is out of misconception. Like Swastika is treated in Europe or Carly's "bhasan" on contribution from moslems. These are resultant of shallow level thought process.
Most of the British people, who came to India were "low life"s (Hari's term) in their native country. Couple of intellectuals, who explored India in depth (like William Jones), used to express altogether different opinion about India. You have to reach that level (from Carly to Einstein)....
Anyhow, same prescription like DM, Tahmed...
Will and Ariel Durant's "The Story of Civilisation"....

Re: # 347 Uncouth-101

"I challnged masadi to have name mulla mandar multankar, and i will recite kalima as many times as he wants in hindi. i have not heard from him."

People who have unrealistic expectations need not expect ANYTHING!

Get it, half-convert?

Re: # 333 Urchin 007
"“There was once a civilization. Emphasis on the past tense... "

NOW the emphasis is on how to make this awake giant fall back to sleep. THIS is the 'War Of Terror' that rages on.

Re: # 329 Dost
You're talking to a very sick little boy who misses what comes from his Mataland!

The 'londa' always had Coca Cola in a feeder!

Re: # 327 Uncouth-101

"islam has outlived and outspaced its utility. it should had been dismantled just after life of mohammed and should not have gone beyond mecca and madina."

You must be high smoking pot or living on ecstasy, 101!

The protection of His system is God's ultimate promise. Millions know His Word by heart, and send blessings on all the Prophets daily. What have YOU got to offer to the world with your caste-based fairy-tales? We will find out soon who wins and which system gains victory.

Wake up! The focus is on Islam, NOT Hinduism. Hatred against God's Word will get you nowhere.

Keep living on the moral fault-line.

Re: # 320 Harry Mao

"Mohammad told you....that your women need to obey their fathers, brothers and husbands; otherwise they can and should be killed."

No baby no! The Qur'an explicitly says that men are the protectors and providers of women! No other system gives women the rights Islam gives. Look at YOUR own caste system, correct YOUR wrongs before you spew out garbage against Islam. The cultural stupidities of a few men do not represent Islam. Haven't you figured out THIS as yet?

Consider this a very polite reply, Harry Mao.

No go live on the money your womenfolk earn....

Re: # 346
Tahmed...

Brahmins or Indians never claimed invention of paper making, ceramics, silk extraction etc...Chinks and Japs were experts in these areas. Indians learned a lot of stuff from Chinese people and vice versa...

Brahmins have contributed enough in their areas (they need not involve everywhere)....

No ranting panting...
In your leasure time, please read the volumes of "The Story of Civilisation" by Will and Ariel Durant....Some useful information....

DM...
Coming to Nazrul etc...
Post Tagore, Nazrul was one of the prominent poets ( Sukanta, Jibananda etc...). It does not make him 2nd to Tagore in terms of literary contribution or qualitative qork. Post partition initiative (1905), to encourage moslems in mainline Bengali culture, Nazrul is highlighted more than he deservs. His work is not part of any unversity curriculla. His poems are good upto school level.

You are missing the context...

What Indian have learned from the arrival of islamic invaders (they were not settlers)?
Post islamic invastion, qualitative degenration, specialy in North India (including some parts of Pakistan) in traditional Indian areas of expertise is quite evident, if you compare works of the Boudhayana and other mathematicians with later day people, Kalidasa,Vishnu Gupta and others in literature....

To simplify the matter...
USA is still the leader in high end computing (IBM and CREY specially). After some political event, if they fails to create similar product or fails to progress in this field, what will be your area of investigation for decline?

Like Tahmed, I will request you to read Will Durant or writings of Vivekananda...Your perspecitive will definitely change....

Shahji:

I make the same distinction between Brahmins and Brahminism that I make between Muslims and Islam. Brahminism is an ideology which considers Brahmins to be superior beings, whereas Brahmins are people, a large majority of whom are poor and oppressed like other Indians. But Brahmins, I think, are nurtured from childhood to inculcate habits of hard work, discipline and dedication and it helps them to achieve success in life; the same route is available to every other community.

Re: # 369
D.M. sb I didnt mean to generalise and apologise for that.There are kind gentle learned briliant handsome debonaire etc etc brahmin .
With respect to Boston Brahmin its just a adjective and nothing more.Hindus have habit of being nosy about who is upper than whom who is high and who is low .

isnt that why they are most hated by black(afroA) and black hate Indian.they find hindus arrogence .They detect that hindus think they are so 'white'as if they owned the plantation!

ppl here use Mogul for everything large gigantic huge .Holly wood mogul

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogul


Mogul may mean:

The word 'mogul’ derives from the powerful mughal emperors of India.
Mogul is a powerful business leader also known as a Business magnate
Horwich Mogul, a class of mixed traffic 2-6-0 steam locomotive built between 1926 and 1932
LMS Stanier Mogul, a class of 2-6-0 mixed traffic steam locomotive (built 1933-1934)
Mogul (or 2-6-0), type of locomotive built from the early 1860s to the 1920s
Mogul lamp (or six way lamp), a floor lamp which has a large center light bulb surrounded by three (or four) smaller bulbs
Mogul skiing, a type of freestyle skiing where skiers try to pass different bumps or moguls
Mongols, one or several ethnic groups
Mughal Empire, or any member of its ruling dynasty
Project Mogul, a top secret project by the US Army Air Forces involving high altitude balloons, whose primary purpose was long-distance detection of sound waves generated by Soviet atomic bomb tests and ballistic missiles

Re: # 375 Posted by pinku on July 8, 2008 6:04:01 pm

So pinku, it was the Arabs who came and grabbed Sindh (actually it was Mohd. Bin Qasim, who conquered Sind). No where in your response did you use the word Islam.

Now the type of violence these Arabs as you have alluded to practiced on Hindus, was also practiced elsewhere in the conquered territory.

How can a doctrine teach the Arab invaders to be such violent? Wouldn't followers of the Bible fall in the same category?

Have you ever asked a Jew, about how the Romans treated them? Well, nowadays there are no Romans, hence you are unable to ask these questions of them.

Besides, the forces of Islam was all over their territory for a long time (at least 700 years)

About the westerners and their violence, maybe the era and the world had changed?

bubba,

Hindu came from Sindhu, your Arab masters were not good at pronouncing "S". Your Arab Masters were good at stealing things from India, they were basically traders or looters and sometimes both at the same time. They exported the idea of number-zero, the decimal system, sugar, cotton and lot many things from India. Understanding things was not their main business.

The glorious past of these "hindu" guys was reported by those westerners, and even Arabs like Al Biruni, that guy Al Biruni said that muslims can not even understand what kind of ponds these hindus have made (I wonder how it can be that difficult:-))... Another was dara Sikhoh, He said these Brahmins/Hindus have this Upanishad, it is the original book that our Kuran talked about... You can see their frustration:-)

Those westerners came to loot the same thing that your Arab masters came for. Land, money and slaves. The Arabs used to kiil everybody who wasn't willing to be subservient to them, these westerners could be that bad and so had to leave. Otherwise most of us wouldn't be here talking all this.

These westerners were not tribal so killing was a bit difficult for them, and it became thier own ending/killing.

Re: # 310 Posted by masadi on July 7, 2008 11:38:27 pm

This was a great response, masadi sahib.

add to #371,

another example: Iqbal's family was converted to Islam when his grandfather Sahaj Ram Sapru (another Brahmin) converted to Islam (to get pardon for some theft??). Even Jinnah family conversion was quite recent. And in no time these people found hinduism difficult to live with:-)

...And Pakistanis won't even let you say that so many of them have such recent Hindu past... true history hardly exist for them... truth can not find a nice place in Islam..

Can anyone explain where did this word "hindu" come from? If these people in India can not even come up with their own word to describe themselves, then how can they claim about such a glorius Indian past? What sort of a story are they inventing? Why is it so difficult for them to accept that it was precisely because of the Mughal Dynasty, that brought the British East India company to the shores of India? There must have been something to gain by these westerner to come all the way, around Cape of Good Hope (I believe?) to land on the shores of the Muslim Kingdom.

replying #339 Posted by dost_mittar

dost-mittar,
as I said eariler you can find good muslims, but Islam has little or no good in it. These guys like Nazrul Islam are not good because of Islam, check what all they read from hinduism?? You won't believe but most people don't know that most of these muslim Ustads and families who are considered greats in indian music now-a-days belong to family of that Tansen, a Brahmin (or other such people) who was converted to Islam.

Islam uses names of some good muslims who were kind of gifted to it by India through conversion. The ideology of Islam itself can not create or even keep good human beings.

I gave an example earlier, even if you get a fresh batch of excellent human beings and make them live as per Islam, you will see how they get converted to killers and fanatics in no time.

If a muslim is good, he is perhaps a very good human being and Islam really got defeated by the very existence of that person.

Re: # 364 to Mureed

That 14 year old white girl you mention apparently is in the US army according to her comments. Obviously it is a joke. Unless you believe young girls like that serve in the armed forces.
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler

Shah2#366:

I do not hate Brahmins. I think that we can learn from them a sense of discipline, dedication to learning and simple living. Some of my most dedicated teachers at school were brahmins.

Re: # 324

D M sb Physical violence only bruise you but GRIHNA of Brahmin or (other high caste )is Phironeate.They hate you then they fight you then you win And Brahmin are losing and will lose

Re: # 320

Retard Harami

I dont justify any killing .Have you heard your brahmin say NARI PASHU SUDR DHOL sab haine peetiye ke ADHIKARI

And have you heard somthing called MAGNITUDE wich goes with degree of severity of punishment .One death is not same as every 12 hours in delhi alone bride burning to death (CBS 60 min of 85)

Stubborn as donkey u rMadrasi brain is Impeneterable

Re: # 317BRAHMIN Professors

Have you ever thaught the Brahmins are hated by women and there wives

brahmins are never able to attract beutifull girls b/c they know there parents are ASS hole for there Bulshit Boys

Who wants to be frigid 79 yrs ols as role model for young aspiring handsome athletic cricketer or soccer star NZanadine zidan or cricketer Imran Khan

Be all the professor you want to i can even get you a job in a colege near me .Its a insignificant job livimg like less than Janitor

Re: # 316
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
Honor killing
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Bahu burning ,dowry death, Foeticide widow persecution Domestic Violence men are guilty as much

SEX IN MOSQUE

Reply to # 211 of nkg and he wrote :

Re: # 101
"So - reflect upon this. Those who run from the west to Pakistan to seek to raise their girls in a "moral" environment have to be the biggest fools there are in the world. "

Moral education like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utNK7_jV9uM

Well nkg ,

Did you watch other movie " sex in mosque " , which was visible on the other page .

We can call it height of civilization and mannerism , when this 14 year old white girl is narrating her experience that how she had sex with her guy friend in a mosque and when they were leaving they saw a police couple who was also engaging in sex during their lunch break..

one can watch that clip , "sex in mosque " by clicking on the following link :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQqZ4fr1cg

A Pakistani man kills his own daughter.

i meant "marketing good speaker type person"

Muslim's should not read too much in carly fiorina's sppech. This lady was in Lucent Bell Labs. She is non technical marketing good type person with right contacts. Rose because of one column in the AA table. In her left hand she must have the Saudi Lifafa and in the right hand the script she has to act in front of right audience who is not supposed to ask her any questions. This lady will take you all for good ride. You would not even know, what happened.

Bootom line: Today's Indian muslims do not need to trace their ancestory to alien land. They should get "gotra" fro themselves. They do not need to invent fake contributions. They are equal Indians as any one else. They own this land, culture, its glorious past and make contributions for the better future of India.

They can be Mandar Multankar and still be a devout mulla. The IITs and IIMs are new Macca and Madina.

And the most likely origin of the jalebi is in India, in Punjab.

#329 dost_mittar

[How about the Taj Mahal, Ghazal, Urdu, Qawaali, Kurta Pajamas, tandoori cooking, Jalebi. Do you want more?]

No, we don't want more of these wonderful inventions/contributions.

The Taj Mahal was built on the misery of thousands of Hindus, using indigenous materials and labour.

Ghazals oroginated as a means for seducing (and later sodomizing) little boys - read up on the history of Ghazal.

Urdu is a bastardized language that is grammatically Sanskrit-derived, with foreign words thrown in.

Tandoor: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandoori

"The tandoor is also known by another name of 'Bhatti' in India. The Bhatti tribe of the Thar Desert of Northwestern India and Eastern Pakistan developed the Bhatti in their desert abode, and thus it gained the name of Bhatti. It is thought to have travelled to Central Asia and the Middle East (from India) along with the Roma, who originated amongst the Thar Desert tribes."

Jalebi is just ONE of millions of Indian sweets.

And yes, we could do without ALL of those, and Islam too.

#349 Posted by tahmed32 on July 8, 2008 8:37:41 am

The caste system isn't leading to planes being flown into buildings and subways being blown up....you know..the type of things muslim ghettoisation leads to

truth#353:

Sorry, this is not my area of expertise.

dost miyan,

give me the names of architects and engineers who built tejo (aka taj) mahal from shahajahaNama.

#349 tahmed32

[truth: "do nnot even talk about castes."

exactly!! all ugly truths of india should be carefully ignored. that is truth (as Made in India)]


Caste system in India is NO BUSINESS of Muslims, you bloody idiot. It does not apply to Muslims. And Hindus are not trying to convert Muslims.

So keep your damn trap shut about what is none of your damn business.

tahmed,
castes is much better than dhimmitude and slavery.

wait and see. islam will vanish in another 50 years. pakistan will disintegrate in a decade.

Shivaji, the great does not need to build some brick and mortar road or develop Java language,

but because of him India exist as an indepenent republic which could chart its own path to progress based on Science and Technology,

fruits of it are India being the IT hub and soon to be biotech hub of the world.

If he had not happened India would be today some Islamic state under sharia.

well everyone knows mohammed discovered paedophilia tahmed. no need ot be pissed about it. How is the democratic revolution coming, homey?

truth: "do nnot even talk about castes."

exactly!! all ugly truths of india should be carefully ignored. that is truth (as Made in India).

truth #343: you forgot to mention GT road that was of course built by shivaji, and unfairly ascribed to that barbarian muslim sher shah suri!! shivaji also invented java programs, i might add!!

"prefer to celebrate contributions of everyone instead of saying that only one community had a monopoly over everything that is good and beautiful in this world."

Nobody is saying that. what we are saying is do not divide people like murad or ahemed does. do nnot even talk about castes. do not divide indians on religious basis. but if you do then be ready acknowledge contributions of right people. indians need to be religion blind. most of hindus are. it's the muslim who would like their Islamic identity over ride thier indic identity.

i challnged masadi to have name mulla mandar multankar, and i will recite kalima as many times as he wants in hindi. i have not heard from him.

nkg: i am not going to try and change your view of the world. of course muslims contributed nothing at all in history. hindus..sorry, brahmins..invented the automobile in 7600 BC. the rest of the world may think that it was muslims who introduced paper in india after learning about it themselves from the chinese - but of course you and i know better, and it was hindus who taught the chinese the art of paper making as well as everything else including the art of cooking noodles, not to mention egg foo yong and aaloo mutter.

happy?

truth:

Here is url for one. You can google for more if you want. Frankly, I prefer to celebrate contributions of everyone instead of saying that only one community had a monopoly over everything that is good and beautiful in this world.
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/arts/Architec/MiddleAgesArchitectura l/IslamicArchitecture/MosquesShrinesinIsfahan/MasjedeSheikhLotfallah/lotfall.jpg

dost mian,

since u did not see does not mean they did built empires in langoti.

since u can see now, see whatis happening in afghanistan and backtrack to understand the history.

Re: # 342 name few and tell the archtects and enginners. mughals kept good log of their court meeting minutes.

where is the mention of somethng which took 16 years to build.

more importantly, how doe/did it contribute to the life of people? some alien lady grabbed by some alien guy, buries her and builds a tomb. even if we assume he built it, it must have made lakhs of people destitute.

truth#337:

I did not see any pictures of Porus or Chandragupta at all, let alone in Kurta or Pajamas ;).

And yes, there are marvellous structures in Iran which can compete in beauty and elegance to the Taj and other Mughal structures.

backtrack what is happening in afghanistan today, and you would know the real history.

islam creates fuedals that too bad one, not socialist or communists. there is something in this regressive ideaology which takes away humanity and asks for total submission to some thing alien.

for creativity, atleast a small dose of spirituality, ability to see goodness every where, conectedness or unity in diversity, re-spect of others, is needed.

moreover i would not consider tombs as contributions because even drug lord builds those tombs with drug money.

nkg:

Are you saying that politics is only being a king? Aren't kingmakers politicians?

No, I am not from the cow belt, but this does not distract from the contributions of Muslims. And since you are a Bengali, isn't Nazrul Islam considered next only to Tagore?

DM...
Little more...
Chanakya was professor of political science and economics at University of Taxila. He have authored book. He was more like PMs advisory board member/planning commission member than politician....

Kurta, Paijama? are you joking?

do you see porus, chandragupta or ashoka in langoti? may be your eyes use only spectrum near xray.

people who kept big Namas, definitely would have kept notes and financing part of building Tejo or Taj Mahal. these folks built which buildings in afghanistan, tajikisthan or uzbekisthan? can you name the architect engineers of these tombs?

you forgot mujra. todays bollywood is extension of it.` ganja and hafim ladden sad meloncholic words creates utterly slavish scumbag like Bahadur Shah Zafar. what is so good about ghazal. the gathering where those were sung was for selected few who made their living at the cost of blood and sweat of many. to morrow you will tell us british gave us cricket, a ganja for masses.
`

forget past

take today. India is building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges in Afghanistan. who is destroying them? what did taliban-pakistan do in their rule?

the faith which cares for life after death can contribute only destruction in this life. every creativity atleast small dose of spirituality, ability to see goodness every where, conectedness or unity in diversity, re-spect of others.

KABUL (Reuters) - Ordinary Afghans' mistrust of the Pakistani military and its spies deepened on Tuesday in the wake of a suicide car bomb attack outside the Indian Embassy in Kabul which killed 41 people and wounded 139.

Pakistan's Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani spoke of his country's goodwill towards Afghanistan while visiting Malaysia, but Afghans' suspicions of their interfering neighbor and its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency were running high.

"We know that Pakistan's ISI has orchestrated the attack on the Indian embassy because good relations between Afghanistan and India are not in Pakistan's interest," said student Nadir Shah a day after the attack in the centre of the Afghan capital.

"India plays a key role in building Afghanistan's infrastructure and is working on many vital projects for the people, whereas Pakistan wants to deter India by using Taliban to kill them and end their mission," he added.

The Afghan government has yet to level a direct accusation at Pakistan, though a spokesman on Tuesday said the attack bore the "hallmarks of a particular intelligence agency."

"I am not going to name it. I think it is pretty obvious," said spokesman Humayun Hamidzada.

Afghan state-run newspapers were less circumspect.

"The enemy is ISI of Pakistan, who fights on different fronts against Afghans and tries to fish in muddy waters through planning subversive attacks in Afghanistan," the Kabul Times said in an editorial.

The Dari-language Anis newspaper said Pakistan had been behind past attacks on Indian construction workers, who have been killed in bomb blasts or executed after being kidnapped.

Ahmad Fawad, a roadside money changer, said Pakistan was habitually blamed.

"Pakistan has been involved in Afghanistan's politics and security for years," Fawad said.

"So, the government blames Pakistan and its intelligence agency for any big attacks that happen in Afghanistan."

There is widespread suspicion Pakistan's ISI maintains contacts with some Taliban factions and other Islamist groups fighting in Afghanistan, although it at the same time works with Western forces and the Afghan government to counter cross-border militancy.

Pakistan has repeatedly denied the allegations, saying Kabul was trying to smear the ISI to deflect attention from its own shortcomings, including corruption and a lack of ethnic Pashtun representation in the government.

After a Taliban jailbreak in Kandahar last month, Afghan President Hamid Karzai lost patience and threatened to launch hot pursuit across the border to hunt down Taliban fighters who fled into Pakistan after carrying out attacks in Afghanistan.

Pakistan had supported the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan in the 1990s, and only abandoned the Islamist militia after the United States forced President Pervez Musharraf to reverse foreign policy following al Qaeda's attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001.

Having helped mujahideen, Islamic warriors, fight a guerrilla war to drive the Soviet army out of Afghanistan in the 1980s, Pakistani generals came up with the idea of "strategic depth," which meant cultivating influence in Afghanistan.

The Pakistanis wanted a friendly fellow Muslim nation on their western border ready to rally to the cause of any jihad, or holy war, against India.

Instead, they were stymied by deployment of Western forces in Afghanistan, heavy representation of the Taliban's old enemies in the Northern Alliance in Karzai's government, and India's increased diplomatic and economic presence in Afghanistan.

Re: # 330
Aslam...
It was Carly's level to reach upto middle east. But dig little deep through the likes of Niels Bohr, Albert Einstein, Nicola Tesla etc...the source shifts to the original place, India.

Re: # 329
DM...
Are you from cow belt (UP, Bihar...)? Then it was expected from you....
What is good about this urdooo, kawali etc...? Is there anything special, which makes qualitative difference.
Some people also mention Mumbai urdoo movies as cultural contribution....
I am talking about quality contribution....
Please don't start comparing Sir J C Bose with APJ Abdul Kalam...

Re: # 328
DM...
Chanakya was advisor to the monarch. He was political scientist/strategist not politician...I hope you understand the difference...

#330 Posted by aslam644 on July 8, 2008 7:28:35 am


“There was once a civilization


Emphasis on the past tense...

Re: # 326
Tahmed...
I have provided statistics and data....

Some section of people excell in some work....
Russians and eastern european people used to dominate in field of chess and mathematics.

To excell in life you need personal and social discipline. Islam is based on dogma,faith etc. which does not allow civilisation to grow. It was common in mediaval period (dogma and faith based society) and so mediaval is termed "dark age".
In one of the posts, I have referred Will Durant's
"The Story of Civilisation". Nice books; will provide you insight how nomadic barbarians from central asia and middle east destroyed Indian culture and civilisation...
Caste system and other issues are discussed in length and breadth several times.(Source. How it evolved. How it had become irrelevant...)...
Please, come with facts....
When Chinese people claim there contribution in ceramics and pottery, nobody objects...

it is no doubt unfair to single out any community of people for blame.


so people should just ignore the whole london bombing, sound of ministry bombing plot, the mass poisoning plot and the atlantic bombing plot..

this is a tactic used by the apologists for the jihadis..portray the islamofascists as victims..

Speech by carly fiorina ex ceo of Hewlett packard

“There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.
It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins.
One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of this civilization's commerce extended from Latin America to China, and everywhere in between.
And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration.
When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others.
While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.
Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth. Leaders like Suleiman contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic leadership.
And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population–that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions.
This kind of enlightened leadership — leadership that nurtured culture, sustainability, diversity and courage — led to 800 years of invention and prosperity.
In dark and serious times like this, we must affirm our commitment to building societies and institutions that aspire to this kind of greatness. More than ever, we must focus on the importance of leadership– bold acts of leadership and decidedly personal acts of leadership."

nkg#327:

How about the Taj Mahal, Ghazal, Urdu, Qawaali, Kurta Pajamas, tandoori cooking, Jalebi. Do you want more?

nkg#325:

"Brahmins never tried to enter in political domain...:

And who was Chanakya, a shudra?

thamed32:
I have no problem in ranting against anything or anyone, but sometimes people use it to distract from the topic under discussion.

give us ontributions of muslims in india for last 1K years.

we do not see any contributions but we do see lot of destruction.

does that mean should we hate present indian muslims?

answer is obviously NO.

but should we tell lies about contributions of Muslims and Islam?

answer is obviously NO.

it would be good idea if Islam reforms itself. otherwise rest of the world has to do it violently.

islam has outlived and outspaced its utility. it should had been dismantled just after life of mohammed and should not have gone beyond mecca and madina.

dost mittar: it is no doubt unfair to single out any community of people for blame. it is however equally out of place to single out any community of people for applause, which is what nkg was doing and to which i responded: if brahmins had a monopoly on intellectual contributions in india, as nkg was implying, then by the same token non-brahmins (not to mention muslims) contributed nothing.

so, i will take back what i said about brahmins being to blame for the evil caste system. and replace it with the more general problem with hinduism that adds insult to injury for reasons explained (and with which you agree, it is clear from your post); and replace it with the deeper malaise in indian society that is reflected in the daily and unprovoked rants against other people and their religion by the laddus, harimaus, jayps, nkgs, truths, ajeyas, arjuns and others on chowk.

pakistanis may rant too, but we have nothing compared to the "contributions" made by indians on chowk to reducing all discussion into a disparaging remarks about one another.

Re: # 324
DM...
As per as priesthood is concerned, Brahmins are less evil than their counter parts in Islam and Christianity...
Church have dark history of inciting violence. Mosques and Madressahs are meant for it. I have not seen any temple priest ranting against anybody. Even during Islamic period or British period, Brahmins never tried to enter in political domain...

But their exclusionist attitude towards Shudras created the whole mess...

tahmed#315:

Your criticism of the concept of karma and incarnation is quite valid but it is unfair to blame the brahmins for it; it is in the DNA of all Indic faiths, just as the concept of God using Prophets (instead of aakaash-vaani or Internet:)) to send messages to human beings is common to all Abrahmic faiths; neither Buddha nor Nanak disowned this philosophy.

Frankly, while I can see why some Hindus may curse Brahminism and the caste system for the downfall of their religion or society, I do not see any justification for your or Pakistanis' constant rants against them. Shouldn't you thank them for oppressing low-caste Hindus and providing you with a rich harvest for expanding your tribe? It was the Rajputs, Khshatriyas, Jatts and Marathas who fought against the Muslims and not the Brahmins; they did not indulge or incite the killings even during 1947 or Gujarat (Modi being a low caste Hindu). They were generally in cahoots with Muslim rulers and got prominent positions with them and the Nawabs in UP and Hyderabad. And while I do see upper caste Hindus in general complaining against the excessive use of quotas to restrict job opportunities to them, I do not see Brahmins leading even that fight.
So, go ahead and rant against Hinduism or Hindus, if you wish, but it makes no sense to single out Brahmins.

Compare the leadership at 47.

Gandhi Baniya probably Kshatriya 2K years back from Bihar
Nehru Bramhin
Patel Kunbi
Jaya Prakash Narayan Kayastha (half Bramhin half Kshatrriya)
If you check Musharraf's ancestory you will find Kayastha.
Swaran Singh Sinkh
Kripalani Sindhi Bramhin
Dange CPI Bramhin
Ambedkar Mahar Maratha

Compare them to Pakistanis. India was truly in good hands then. Instead of the list above if we had Paswans then we probably would be in same dire state as Pakistan.

Where you are born does not matter, by your deeds you become whatever you want to be.

Ref Mullah32 #304

I suppose slinking around in the US or Canada hoping nobody notices you, being singled out for body cavity searches at airports, etc., -- all because you have a Muslim name -- qualify you as a winner.

Ref okhla99 # 303

Thanks. I am doing well despite what might have been salmonella poisoning in Southwest Colorado.

You must have really liked that statement of mine. I don't think any low-life Islamic thug had a come-back when I wrote that.

Ref Shah2 #301

There is a difference between racism and honor killings.

Mohammad told you it is okay to marry across races so long as you convert the other person to Islam. He also told you that your women need to obey their fathers, brothers and husbands; otherwise they can and should be killed.

I am only surprised that the Pakistani arrested two days ago in Atlanta only strangled his daughter. I thought the appropriate Koranic punishment was stoning to death.

Ref Mullah32 #302

I knew you would have a come-back even when I point out that the World doesn't accept honor killings.

I am only surprised that you, with your Islamic education and vast Koranic knowledge, didn't quote from the Koran or Mohammad the Pedophile's life.

Re: # 315
Tahmed...
Brahmins were small in number and not financialy better than other upper castes (Vaishya, Kashatriya). So, the theory of Brahmin oppression is not very valid.
Your place (society) of birth definitely shapes your future to large extent...

Re: # 315
Tahmed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin
Search for notable Brahmins and follow the link to get their contributions...

Large section of mathematics, which later urdoos/moslems claimed as their own....
Medical science,
Literature...

There is a term called "Boston Brahmin"...learn more about that then will know, why they are called so..

Re: # 301
Shah....
So, this is honor killing to you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
First couple of sentences are sufficient....

#313 and what have the brahmins accomplished that they are so proud of? convince the rest of the duds in india that the rich and powerful are rich and powerful because they were good in their previous incarnation, and that the poor and oppressed are poor and oppressed as punishment for being evil in their previous incarnation!

but then, i am merely a lying muslim scoundrel, what do i know. :-)

Ghettoes are mini Pakistans. Same mindset which created Pakistan creates ghetoes. Pakistan is ghetto pof the subcontinent. But why do they do?

By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | Tuesday, July 08, 2008

Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Vijay Kumar, an émigré from India who is seeking the Republican nomination in a Tennessee primary Congressional race set for August. He is running on an anti-Sharia platform. Visit his website at kumarforcongress.com.





FP: Vijay Kumar, welcome to Frontpage Interview.

Kumar: Thank you. It is a pleasure to speak with you.

FP: I would like to speak to you today about the anti-Sharia program you are running on. But first let’s begin with your background. Tell us about your life in India, your emigration to the United States, and how you came to your anti-Sharia views.

Kumar: I was born in Hyderabad, India, in 1954. I grew up there in India, in a conservative, middle-class family. I studied classics, political science, and philosophy. During the late 1970s, I was working in human resources for a European construction company, and that work took me to Iran. From 1977 to 1979 I witnessed, firsthand, the radical transformation of Iran from a modern nation to a repressed, fundamentalist state and it left a lasting impression on me. I suppose you could say that my anti-Sharia views began there.



The American way of life and its values resonated strongly with me. I emigrated here in 1979 and have been living in the Bellevue area of Nashville for twenty years. I’ve been raising a family and managing my own insurance business, and during it all I’ve been interested in politics.

Right now, our country is dealing with issues – issues like illegal immigration, healthcare reform, the War on Terror – that will shape our politics for the rest of this century. Like many Americans, I’ve grown to feel that the politicians of this country are simply not accomplishing anything on these fronts. As low as the President’s approval rating has gotten, the approval rating for Congress is even lower. So, as a concerned and informed citizen, I’ve decided to run for Congress and help put things on the right track. That’s what living in a democracy is all about.

FP: What has made you make an anti-Sharia platform the central tenet of your campaign?

Kumar: The main focus of my campaign is the War on Terror. What so many politicians do not seem to realize is that our struggle is against more than just “terror.� Terrorism is simply a method, not an end itself. Terrorism is just one tactic being used by Islamic extremists in their effort to force their way of life on the rest of the world. Ultimately, then, this is a struggle over whether the nations of this world will be ruled under Sharia law or not. As Omar Ahmad, founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant.�



FP: What are your thoughts about CAIR?



Kumar: CAIR is a direct manifestation of Mohammed’s Sunna and jihad. CAIR is actually just one part of Islam’s strategy to annihilate the Western culture. It is far more dangerous than any Mohammed Atta or any other jihadists.



Lies and deceit are CAIR’s stock-in-trade. They claim to be akin to a “Muslim NAACP,� but everyone from the Department of Homeland Security, to FBI counterterrorism chiefs, to moderate American Muslims recognizes the extreme rhetoric that CAIR endorses. At least five of CAIR’s board members and employees have been linked to terrorism-related activities. They are fifth columnists, preying upon our values of tolerance and multiculturalism.



But CAIR is just one of an untold number of Islamic organizations in our government and university centers. People forget that Mohammed’s last words were to keep giving the money to kafir ambassadors and that is what Islam is doing in Washington, DC. Capitol Hill is awash in Saudi money and our dhimmi political types cannot get enough of it.

FP: What do you think it says about Islam that non-Muslims cannot enjoy the same freedoms in Muslim nations as Muslims enjoy in America and the West – and many countries around the world?

Kumar: This is proof of the legal inequalities that are built into Sharia law. Sharia is a set of laws designed to apply not just to Mulsims, but to non-Muslims as well. Everyone, believer and kafir alike, is supposed to live a life based upon Mohammed. However, kafirs – those who do not believe – are given distinctly different treatment than believers.

In America, we believe that all human beings are created equal, and that all human beings possess certain natural rights; our entire Constitution is just a logical extension of that one idea. To us, Muslims are humans just like everyone else, and therefore they should have the same legal rights as everyone else. Sharia law, on the other hand, is not based on logic or a belief in natural equality. It is based on religious customs, and part of its design is to elevate believers over non-believers.

Yet, we never bring up this inequality and lack of freedom under Muslim rule. We never point out Islam’s long history of destroying or oppressing other cultures. We never remember the suffering of non-Muslims in Muslim nations. We never teach that Turkey was once Christian, or that Islamic jihad has reduced Hindustani culture to half of what it once was. Muslim groups often like to point to Christians as aggressors, citing the Crusades of the Dark Ages, but the West remains silent about people being oppressed in the Middle East today, right now.



FP: Why do you think there is such a silence in the West about Muslim tyranny? Why do you think the Left refuses to stand up for those who suffer under Islamic despotism?



Kumar: The Left and Islam share many of the same values. Both deny that individuals have a personal ethic. A central authority should control all things. Both insult and denigrate their opponents and see themselves as victors in the movement of history. Both hate the native cultures and individual efforts.



The mindset of the Leftist is one of deliberate ignorance. I was a Leftist, a bleeding heart liberal until a few years ago. I came from a Marxist family in India. The Left, by its silence on the issue of radical Islam, has betrayed its own professed ideals, if it has any.



The fight against Political Islam should have been led by the liberal intellectuals in our universities, but instead they deliberately and systematically support a seventh century totalitarian ideology that negates all forms of rational thinking, intellectual pursuit, and pluralism - the very ideals which are supposed to be central to the philosophy of the Left.



The Liberals have become the lackeys of Islamic imperialism in their words and deeds. They fail to mention the 1,400 years of Jihadists' terror in this world. How can we cry for the genocide in Darfur and ignore the cause?



The media only has a concern for white oppression and white evil. If the source of evil is non-white and non-Christian, they don’t care. Our Leftist media is forcing us to fight this ideological struggle with both hands tied behind our backs. To them, saying anything negative about other countries or cultures is not telling the truth, it is racism. To them, portraying America’s values and accomplishments in a positive light is propaganda – and God forbid they indulge in anything so base as pro-American propaganda.



Another aspect of Leftist thought is that there is no absolute morality. Everything is relative, every kind of behavior and belief should be tolerated, and therefore the American system isn’t better than any other. How can we engage in a battle of ideologies when you see all ways of life – even those that preach an end to tolerance and an end to intellectual freedom – as acceptable? And as we can see in the Obama campaign, you can talk about change as long as you serve the same menu of old ideas with a new smile.



We cannot see what we do not understand. Our education system is bankrupt at all levels. Our universities do not prepare our young minds to see anything bad about Islam. Here in Nashville at Vanderbilt University you can get a degree in Islamic Studies and never read the life of Mohammed—and never read the entire Koran. You study Sufi poetry, Islamic art and Islamic history viewed as a glorious triumph. No kafirs suffer in this program and there is no history of Jew, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist suffering under Islamic rule for the past 1,400 years. A graduate from this program then goes out into the world professionally trained to be an apologist for Islam, a dhimmi. And this program is standard at all schools, not just Vanderbilt.



All of our textbooks teach a CAIR approved history and doctrine of Islam. All of the young minds are trained to never see any wrong in Islam and to blame all the faults of Islam on us.

FP: What should be done about Sharia law in America?

Kumar: First we have to understand that Sharia denies the values of our Constitutional government and that it has been the constant goal of radical Islam to make all peoples submit to Sharia. We must educate ourselves as to the actual nature of Sharia law and its history. Any American who is reasonably informed about Sharia law should recognize that it is incompatible with freedom and our way of life.

Sharia is the legal condensation of the Koran and the Sunna – the words and actions of Mohammed. Because it is based upon the political submission of everyone – Muslim and non-Muslim – to Islamic law, the Koran is a political document. Sharia dictates what literature and art must be. It dictates public behavior. It asserts that kafirs are legally inferior to Muslims. Sharia can’t be reformed, since it is based on religion and ideology. It is unchangeable and its laws can only be interpreted by select Islamic scholars. The heart of political Islam is that Sharia law must rule over everyone, not just those who choose to be Muslim. Sharia denies the Bill of Rights – it allows slavery; it asserts that women are legally inferior; it dictates cruel and unusual punishment, such as stoning or cutting off the offender’s hands and feet; it denies freedom of religion, freedom of the press, or freedom of expression. The goal of Islamic extremists is to see Sharia annihilate all other forms of law, including our Constitution.

Second, we must demand from any Muslim running for public office where they stand on the application of Sharia law in America. In fact, we should demand that all our politicians make their position on Sharia law clear. We must pass laws that ensure the brutality of Sharia law can never be applied to an American woman. Ultimately, it is vital that all of us understand that we are in a struggle of ideologies, with the ways of freedom, democracy, and human rights on one hand, and the ways of oppression, intolerance, and ignorance on the other.



FP: Are you optimistic that the West can prevail against Islamo-Fascism and that we will be able to defend ourselves against Sharia?



Kumar: No. Too many of our intellectuals do not recognize the threat of Islamo-Fascism. Our public is not being educated about the goals and beliefs of our enemies. Our government is trying to fight organizations, not the beliefs that give rise to them.



Terrorists are products of militant ideologies, not vice-versa. Unless we confront the ideology logically and persistently our efforts are futile. However, in the land of the brave and the home of the free we choke on the truth. Our culture is drowning in the growing cesspool of political correctness. The liberal left in the United States and Europe have become apologists for militant Islamic radicalism. They say that the terrorist attacks are the consequence of America's foreign policy in the Middle East and its unconditional support for Israel rather than the continuation of 1,400 years of jihad. How does this explain Al-Qaeda’s attacks in Indonesia and Saudi Arabia? The Left fails to understand the fact that there are few Americans or Jews in India, Thailand, The Philippines, Bali, Nigeria, Sudan, Russia and host of other countries where Islamic radicalism has been waging a relentless campaign of terror.



It is a moral imperative to oppose the nations that practice Sharia Law. We must start scrutinizing way more carefully immigration from Sharia practicing nations. Why should we let on our shores those who want to install and live by Sharia? The progenitors of Sharia Law and Universal Jihad are Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia – the true Axis of Evil. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not our allies; they are our enemies. These outlaw nations must be demilitarized, secularized, and democratized. That should be the goal of our "War on Terror.� Make no mistake: unless these nations forego their fundamentalist and militarist theology and join the secular humanity there will not be a lasting peace in the world.



FP: Well, the idea of demilitarizing, secularizing and democratizing these regions all sounds good – to an extent. For instance, it has to be ascertained who exactly we are demilitarizing and the problems this may cause, as there are forces in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, for instance, that are confronting Islamist terrorists. This doesn’t mean, of course, that those we think are our friends truly are our friends – many are our enemies and we have to become wiser about this. I am just saying there is a certain balancing act we have to shrewdly play. And how one goes about secularizing and democratizing the Muslim world with Muslim populations is a whole other story – and though it would be a providential godsend if this really did occur, it would be an “objective� on our part with huge complications and obstacles, and we’ll have to leave the discussion of this issue for another time and place.



Vijay Kumar, thank you for joining us.

Re: # 303
Okhla...

The Bengali Minister is Subhash Chakravarti (Sports and Youth). He has issued different statement. Your source may be wrong or you are moslem (liar and scoundrel).

Every Brahmin have reason to be proud of, for their collective achievements and discipline (the way handful of jews in post WWI dominating science, engineering, entertainment) of execution for more than 1000 years.
The way moslems carry very negative image in most part of the world (educationaly backward, trouble maker, scoundrels), Brahmins carry very positive image as per as education (that is their area or expertise) is concerned. Any top University in India, US or UK you will find couple of them occupying senior professor's post. Per capita graduation is also very high amongst Brahmins....

When serial blasts by the jihadis happened in India, pakistan refused to cooperate. Pathetic pakis like zeemax are still categorising the jihadis...kashmir jihadis who attack only india, anti hindu jihadis who bomb indian every where including afghanistan...now the poor pakis whave oto create a new class..serial bombing jihadis.

Newly added to thsi typology is the bank rober jihadis.

Take it from me pakis, jihadis are general purpose killers, they will kill any one whom the mullah orders them to kill. That si what has happened in karachi.

The poor reporter of the item below is mystified, better he reads and understands about jihad from my posts.
///////////////////////////////////
Series of blasts terrorises, mystifies Karachi



By Tahir Siddiqui


KARACHI, July 7: Terror struck the city six times within an hour on Monday as unknown terrorists triggered a series of blasts that wounded over 50 people, including children and policemen.

The blasts occurred between 7:05pm and 7:50pm, with an interval of eight to 10 minutes, at Banaras Chowk, Orangi Town, Pak Colony and Shahrah-i-Noorjahan.

The DIG of Karachi West, Aleem Jaffery, told Dawn that 41 people were injured in the series of blasts at five places. “No one was killed in the blasts, however,� he added.

Observers and analysts found the serial bomb attack in the provincial capital different from the usual pattern of terrorist strikes in the country. Most of the bombs used were of a low intensity and designed more to spread panic than to cause large-scale human casualty.

Now what happened post 9/11 was bribery of the generals to buy from them the country (that they dont own but act as they do) by rescheduling of debt, the flow of remittances from the US because Pakistanis

Messups of the Pakistan Army Part 2Posted: Jul 7, 2008 Mon 11:26 pm

In response to my article, Mkamd wrote

"Posted by mkamd on Monday July 7, 2008 10:28 pm
I think this ilog is as illogical as one could be. It portrays only one side of the picture. It does not address the fact that Civilian Leadership was given the chance several times and they were as corrupt, disorganized and short sighted as they could be. The so called democratic leaders like Bhutto, Benazir, Nawaz Sharif have no better record than military rulers when economy, education and human rights are concerned. I do not endorse Mr. Musharaff but it is hard for me to deny that he kept GDP above 7%, increase foreign debt by only 2 billions, increase foreign reserves so that IMF assistance program was stopped. In addition he increased education budget by 300%, give more freedom to press/cable news and foreign investment increased to record 7 billion in 2006-7 (compare to 9 billion in 6 times bigger India!!). In comparison 10 yrs of Benazir and Nawaz brought only 2% increase in GDP, foreign reserves were never above 1 billion, IMF assistance was sought every year. Judges/ Journalist were harrased/tortured and we all know the details. They acted like bullies and strife for totalarian age. I am no more fond of Military rule, but in our unique history, Civilians are no better.

America is blamed for all Pakistan's problems. Same american assistance helped in reviving Eugrope/Japan. Also helped in countries like us eg Korea to become world economic power. May be problem is not America. Problem is our own nation. Americans scrutinized their President top to bottom and reject someone who is a misfit even if he is own of their own majority color. We lack this courage and keep electing same losers just because they tell us they speak Punjabi or Sindhi and they will not betray us again. Our lack of education and unity are our biggest problems due to which we do not progress and can not make right decisions. America and Military are not the culprit. They are just a manifestation of what happen to those people who do not choose right leaders and who do not choose to educate themselves. It has happened to any and every nation who choose to be like us eg Egypt, Nigeria, Iraq, Phillipines, Vienam, Nepal etc. They all have the same problem. Those who choose right leaders and educate themselves like Malaysis, India, Korea etc reap the benefits. "


Response:

Posted by masadi on Monday July 7, 2008 11:21 pm

This army apologist mkamd has no clue about the workings of an economy, if in order to reward dictatorships, the US opens up spigots of its bribe money (after costing the country more than what it gave as a result of its wot), and consumption goes up both among the top few and as a consequence of a growing population, the growth is redistributed to the very rich and army generals, and we talk about a booming economy, with runaway inflation reaching almost 17%, cooked up numbers of well being, half the population food insecure and power cuts to equal war torn Iraq, we cannot really talk about development and success of an economy.

Now what happened post 9/11 was bribery of the generals to sell them the country by rescheduling of debt, the flow of remittances from the US because Pakistanis in the US feared that extra scrutiny of their funds might result in them being expropriated, and further bribe in access to US and European markets for Pakistani exports, and scandalous selling of local assets to foreign investors who then extracted and sent home their suplus, these bribes were small compared to what the miserable F'ck Musharraf did, he handed over the country lock stock and barrel to the Americans to do with it as they pleased, sparking a civil war and suicide bombings in the northern areas as well as the cities of this country.

Whenever civilian governments have come in and have tried to do for the common man what no military general ever has, they have been punished by those very powers that reward these military thugs, the end results of whose rule has always been a disastrous catastrophy for Pakistan and the vast majority of its impoverished people. Regarding education, nothing is being spent on it to make any difference in the lives of the people whatsoever, 9 years was a long enough time to make a marked difference in the lieracy rate but that didn't happen, no public schooling system was started just as no health care system for the poor was started, rather inflation has taken the very bread out of the mouth of the population..As usual he blames the victims, the people for "bad choices" in choosing their leaders and not the thugs of the Pakistan Army that have prevented all avenues of the people's will being exercised through civil institutions and have squandererd people wealth in rewarding their own officers, buying expensive and useless equipment from abroad and selling the nation to their foreign friends.

Saying that I do not address the fact that the civilian leadership was "given the chance"- as if ruling is the right of the military leadership, is BS. I know how a society works and how institutions interact, when civilians work subservient to the military thugs they can go in one direction and one direction alone if they are to survive and that is follow the military line or they are sent home packing...The so-called great economic success of the Musharraf era exists in the dimwitted minds of the generals and their peons, the people of this country, inspite of all the bribes that have flowed into the pockets of the very rich are in much worse shape due to inflation, unemployment and lack of basic servies than any time before in the history of this nation. Get a hold of the UN human development report even the WB indicators that put this nation as one the most underdeveloped nations of the world. So whereas the generals can cook numbers and convert every disaster they have brought on Pakistan into a victory for themselves, the people are as underdeveloped as they were at any time in previous history of this nation, and that is the direct consequence of military or military dominant rule.

In order to censor my ilogs, i.e. prevent them from appearing on the front page, after the great success of my anti-Pak Army ilog, the miserable chowk staff have altered their ilog system to prevent new ilogs from being posted on the FP

Never the less I have posted a new ilog, check it out

Pakistan is indeed a ghetto - it is based upon the ghetto ideology called TNT.

No wonder, wherever they go they take their ghetto mentality around.
They wear the TNT up their sleeves all the time and the other nation is the place of their migration.
There is a Pakistan in every Pakistani household- in every gali and mohallah where they live in ghettos as per their ideology of TNT.

Pakistani wants Afghanistan also ghetoised by putting hurdles in Afghan's communication with rest of the world.

Pakistan is an Islamic state, soon it will be a ghetoised or pariah state.

A policeman reacts after the attack on the embassy in Kabul. (Reuters)

The following is the account of an Indian media person stationed in Kabul between 2003 and 2005 who did not want to be named.

I am a little surprised about this terrible attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul. Indians are hugely respected in Afghanistan, especially in Kabul, because of our age-old and cordial relations.

In my years there, I felt no hostility from the Afghans. They are, in fact, very welcoming of Indians in most parts of that country. I would say the only exceptions are certain areas bordering Pakistan, and that animosity comes because of Pakistani influence.

I travelled throughout Afghanistan during my two years there and made many friends. I think the fact that I am a Sikh and I wear a turban and beard helped. I was identifiable as an Indian instantly by all of them. Even when the embassy used to order advisories from time to time about being extra careful, I would move around freely and never had a problem.

When I heard of the attack today, I called many of my friends and some of them called me. Thankfully, all of them are well.

But this attack is quite stunning. Nobody has claimed responsibility but knowing that the Afghan people are friendly towards Indians, I suspect it could only be the handiwork of Pakistan’s ISI, or of people backed by them.

I used to live very near where the Indian embassy is. It is located in a rented accommodation in central Kabul. In fact, it is situated right opposite the Afghan interior ministry, the Koocha-e-Wazarat Daakhila, in Shehr-e-Nau. It is a very busy, bustling road.

The Indians have bought a plot of land to build a new embassy but it is yet to come up. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh laid the foundation of the embassy building during his visit in 2005. I was in Kabul at the time, covering the visit.

My house was barely a hundred yards from where the blast took place. But I never felt unsafe or insecure. The embassy was itself fairly well guarded. There were about 10 Afghan police personnel posted outside the boundary wall, and inside the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was responsible for security. In fact, they manned the guardroom into which the suicide bombers rammed their vehicle today.

In my time, there used to be about 68 or so ITBP personnel guarding the embassy premises. But there was never any palpable sense of danger to Indians. But there are security concerns always. Kabul is a non-family station for all Indians. Only close family members are allowed short visits. My daughter once spent a fortnight with me while I was there.

Everybody knows the ISI is very active in Kabul and all over Afghanistan. Even I would get threats once in a while, but I used to ignore them. I never took a guard. My Afghan driver was my guard, interpreter and friend.

I would say even the Taliban would not attack Indians or Indian establishments unless they are under orders from the ISI. They have no independent reason to attack us. But the Pakistanis do, I think.

They are not happy with the Zaranj road project which is going to be completed later this month. That is because at the moment Afghanistan is virtually under Pakistani stranglehold. The Zaranj road project will change that because it will provide a link to key Afghan cities like Kabul and Kandahar and other parts of northern Afghanistan and Central Asia from the Iran side.

It can also be used to transport goods to and from the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas. This is a road of huge strategic importance that the ISI does not want completed.

In my experience, things were pretty good. People mixed with each other, especially Indians. In the evenings we used to sometimes go to a couple of Indian restaurants that are very popular. Or to international clubs. There was no problem.

But with this attack, this will have to drastically change, within and outside the embassy, for Indians in Afghanistan.

"The Communist minister Chakraborty in West Bengal, defending his attendance at a religious ceremony, said that he is seen as a brahmin first, a Bengali next and a Communist last.'

Incidently an oppertune moment to see his face in gallery he is monkey firt and minister next caged in Kolkata zoo

okla: greetings.

as for pandit harimau: so many losers on chowk, so little time...:-)

#300 Harimau


Welcome back Haramimau, How've you been !!!

Before you start preaching let me quote from your interact of April 2007:

QUOTE:

Harimau skewers the lower castes like you guys might skewer meat for sheesh-kebabs.

Harimau walks tall, knowing full well that just by birth alone he is superior to 95% of Indians and 100% of non-Indians. That kind of self-confidence is not easy to come by.

Harimau pities mlecchas like you who have the misfortune to be born into a strange cult and who can have no exit strategy short of death. In fact, he pities mlecchas more than he pities the lower castes who at least have reservations going for them.

When I go to a roadside temple near my home for a special puja, I deliberately wear a dhoti but no upper garments. You should see what happens: the sight of the sacred thread around my torso parts the crowd who stand a respectful foot away from me so that I won`t be defiled by their touch. This in the city of Chennai after 75 years of anti-Brahmin propaganda. Hey, I like that.

The Communist minister Chakraborty in West Bengal, defending his attendance at a religious ceremony, said that he is seen as a brahmin first, a Bengali next and a Communist last.

Nope, we don`t squirm. We walk with our heads held high. Squirming is for low-lifes, such as worms on a hook. UNQUOTE





HA HA HA!!!!!!! Haramimau talks of honor. LOL !!! LOL!!! ROFL!!!!!

shah: how dare you shake the moral pedestal on which the perfumed hindus pose on chowk?

Re: # 300

Harami its not Abdul or Ram matter Harami

Indian American gets life for black daughter-in-law’s murder
June 28th, 2008 - 2:09 pm ICT by IANS - Email This Post

New York, June 28 (IANS) An India-born businessman in the US has been sentenced to life imprisonment, a day after he was held guilty of hiring killers to murder his son’s wife because she was an African American. Chiman Rai, 68, was given a life sentence Friday by a Fulton County jury in Atlanta, Georgia. The jury held him guilty on seven charges, including felony, murder and burglary.

Prosecutors had sought death penalty for Rai.

“This particular murder (is) outrageous, wantonly vile,� prosecutor Sheila Ross said. “The brutal murder of this young mother not only justifies but demands the death penalty.�

The prosecutors contended that Chiman Rai had his son Rajeev ‘Ricky’ Rai’s wife Sparkle, 22, killed because he was racist and believed that an inter-racial marriage would embarrass his family.

In April 2000, Sparkle was found murdered, strangled with a vacuum cord and stabbed more than a dozen times within weeks of her wedding to Ricky. Their six-month-old daughter Analla was left unharmed in a nearby room in their Union City apartment in Georgia.

The case baffled investigators for years until two witnesses came forward and identified Cleveland Clark as the killer who was helped by his brother, Carl Clark. Both were serving time in a Mississippi prison for armed robbery when they were charged for the contract killing.

Prosecutors said Rai, indicted in 2006 for the crime, teamed up with Willie Fred Evans and Herbert Green who served as middlemen. The two co-defendants testified in court that they arranged the killing. Both have pleaded guilty to lesser charges and cooperated with prosecutors.

Prosecutors said $10,000 was passed to the Clark brothers. Cleveland, who also faces the death penalty in a separate trial, carried out the killing.

Defence attorneys contended Evans and Green lied to cover up their own role in the killing, which looked like a robbery gone bad.

The prosecution’s case was helped by Ricky testifying during the trial that he and the victim had moved cities to escape family pressure about the relationship.

He, however, recanted his earlier statement given to the police soon after Sparkle’s murder that his parents were “kind of racist�.

Rai’s defence projected him as a hardworking businessman who wanted his son to marry an Indian woman but was far from a racist. They produced many of Rai’s black customers and fellow inmates before the jury, and each described Rai as tolerant and compassionate.

His attorneys also reminded the jury that their client had taught mathematics at the historically black Alcorn State University in Mississippi and ran a supermarket in a predominantly black area in Jackson.

Rai brought his family to the US in 1970 from India. After teaching and running a supermarket, he bought a hotel in Louisville, Kentucky, where he hired Sparkle as a clerk.

Daughter of a news reporter, she fell in love with Ricky and became pregnant before their wedding.

Ricky also said in the court that he married an Indian woman after Sparkle’s death. He has not seen his daughter Analla, on whom he once doted, since shortly after the murder. He gave her custody to Sparkle’s father and step-mother.

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senna interesting what you say. Can you explain it in a little less breathless fashion please. I am confused.

November 21, 2006...9:01 pm
Are there ghettos in the UK?

Recent news coverage leads me to ask ‘where are the UK ghettos?’. This is an oft asked question when discussing community relations / cohesion, racism, and more recently terrorism. The pessimistic tell us that we are becoming ever more segregated into ghettos, and others like to emphasise how integrated we are. Both seem to have statistics to back it up. However, one key problem that gets ignored is the choice of the unit of analysis.
As an example, the recent work by Nissa Finney and Ludi Simpson, when garbled by the journalists at least (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1952282,00.html), says that terrorists are no more likely to come from ethnic or religious ghettos than places where people are integrated. The research, however, uses local authority areas as the unit of analysis. This is just crazy: you won’t find ghettos of this size (100,000 to 700,000 people). Ghettos are small places where lots of one kind of people are packed in and surrounded by another kind (by choice or force).
Indeed, if we were to choose the UK as the area of analysis, no-one could live in a ghetto. But if we were to choose a household, almost everyone would (4 white people only equals an all white ghetto).
I point this out in a letter to the Guardian (will it be published?):

Ludi Simpson’s finding that those living in areas with a high number of Muslims are ‘no more likely to become involved in terrorism (Study rejects claim that Muslim areas harbour terrorists, November 20) is entirely expected and in no way refutes Trevor Phillips assertion that maximising integration minimises extremism.
By choosing areas as large as cities, some with populations nearing a million people (e.g. Leeds), he mistakes high numbers of Muslim people for ghettoes. Newham may have a large number of Muslims, but the sheer numbers mean they are spread out: the highest concentrations of Muslims will be surrounded by areas with reasonably high numbers of Muslims. Ghettoes are more likely to occur where there are low numbers of ethnic others, not vice versa, where they are concentrated into a small area, which is surrounded by white areas.
It is true that Beeston, where three of the London bombers lived, has a low number of Muslims (the ward has 6.5% not the 3% mentioned in the article). However, Beeston has neighbourhoods that are a third Muslim (and one small area where 54.5% of the population are Muslim), while others nearby have next to none. It is in these circumstances in which prejudice and intolerance are likely to breed, not highly diverse areas such as Newham, Hackney and Lambeth.

Given that people live their lives around a fairly small locality it makes sense to look at it at this scale. Cities like Leeds, and Stoke where I work, have small numbers of BME people, and they are concentrated in a few small neighbourhoods. It is unlikely that those living in Beeston will look for friends at the other end of the city. In Stoke, the people of the all white estates in the north of the city won’t have friends at the other end. So this local ghettoisation does create divides.
In a very diverse area like Newham (24% Muslim, 34% white, etc. etc.) you are never that far from someone who isn’t like yourself. Yes, there may be pockets of concentrated groups, but these are less out of place because the rest of the borough is mixed. Just by dint of spread, there are no all white areas. In the northern cities however, the rest of the borough is white all over.

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Filed under Statistics and simplicity

Tahir Mamuji,

You read what was pasted carefully. Tell us what you accepted and what you rejected. The actions of Arab Muslims you need not own. They are not your ancestors. Do Good Bye Chumma to Umma.

You guys have this problem Jis plate se Khate hon Usi Main Hagte (shit) Ho. Accept the plate is your dear Hindu ancestor's property and you will take care of it by respecting it.

Tahir Mamuji,

"Have I ever ridiculed your idols or abused the deities?"

Please go and revist your posts.

Re: # 288 it's Good bye Chumma to Umma!

Re: # 292 Uncouth-100
"But that leaves the shit in Koran in tact"

First, I red-flagged you; second, I complained to the deaf chowkstaff; third, let me tell you that you've had low-quality education. Have I ever ridiculed your idols or abused the deities?

Shame on you; and you call me Mamu? Hasn't your real Mamu ever spanked you for uttering such non-sense?

The message to these 'moderates' is -- lip service is not enough. They must take a forthright stand and play an active role in reforming the Islam. All other religions -- Hinduism included -- have reformed themselves and continue to do so.


These records make it clear that there is no middle ground in Islam, of a spirit of live and let live. In the words of the philosopher KD Prithipaul of the University of Alberta (conveyed to this reviewer), Muslims can live only "as an oppressive majority or a turbulent minority". Even the Indian Sufi Shayk-Ahmad Sirhindi wrote: "Whenever a Jew is killed it is for the benefit of Islam." This was long before the creation of Israel.

In spite of this vast and unambiguous record spanning over a thousand years, there is no shortage of 'liberal' intellectuals who extol the tolerance shown by Islam. Economist Amartya Sen wrote that when the "Jewish philosopher Maimonides was forced to emigrate from an intolerant Europe in the 12th century, he found a tolerant refuge in the Arab (Muslim) world". The truth is that the 'intolerant' Europe Maimonides had to flee happened to be Spain then under Berber Muslim rule, which, according to Foujad Ajami, "made the life of Spanish Jews... utter hell".

The depth of hatred for Jews that permeates the Islamic scriptures is truly staggering, but Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) noted also a parallel tendency for denial: "Never did a nation molest, degrade, debate and hate us as much as they (Muslims)... Although we were dishonoured by them beyond human endurance,... we have acquiesced, both old and young, to inure ourselves to humiliation." This could well have been written about Hindus, especially their modern prophets of 'secularism.'

As part of this denial, Jews themselves joined hands with some apologist scholars to create the myth of a 'Golden Age' of Spain under Islamic rule. Jane Gerber explodes this myth: "The aristocratic bearing of a select class of courtiers and poets, however, should not blind us to the reality that this tightly knit circle of leaders was neither the whole of the Jewish history nor of Spanish Jewish society." This applies equally to the myth of India's 'Golden Age' under the Mughals with its 'synthetic culture' propagated by secularist historians.

Academic whitewashers of the Islamic record like Amartya Sen have now been joined by a brand of 'moderate' Muslims who claim that the extreme Wahaabi brand of Islam in force in countries like Saudi Arabia is a deviation from the true teachings. A prime example of these is Ed Husain, a reformed British radical Muslim and author of The Islamist. These 'moderates' are lionised by the establishment, especially in Britain. The same establishment, on the other hand, shuns serious critics like Ibn Warraq and the late Anwar Shaikh who raise uncomfortable questions.

A curious thing about these so-called moderates is that they live in open non-Islamic societies like the UK, the US and India where they enjoy the protection of democratic Governments. Their message of moderation is for public consumption and never taken to those who really need it -- the fundamentalists who rule Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, Al Qaeda and their ilk. In effect, they are little more than apologists.

The message to these 'moderates' is -- lip service is not enough. They must take a forthright stand and play an active role in reforming the Islam. All other religions -- Hinduism included -- have reformed themselves and continue to do so.

In summary, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism leaves little doubt that intolerance and violence are not a recent phenomenon due to Israel or Ayodhya or anything else, but only the latest phase in a theology and history that goes back 1,400 years. It is an indispensable source for every serious student of religion, especially of Islam and its history.

Re: # 290 Tahir Mamu,

Who is this Ibrahim dude? Some old semitic long bearded guy, we do not care about. Do you see the pathetic poor Abdul who was Hindu Haris pulling his cart late in the night. Talk about him, not some mythical alien Ibrahim.

The crus of the post is this that Murad like people can afford to deflect the focus on real issue by giving an appearance of moderation etc. But that leaves the shit in Kporan in tact. That is why I say For the peace in the world we need make this religion of peace permanently rest in peace.

"A curious thing about these so-called moderates is that they live in open non-Islamic societies like the UK, the US and India where they enjoy the protection of democratic Governments."

Laddu is ready to implode; he's had too much 'cholay'....

Re: # 289 Untruth-101

You're reading trash again. Anti-semitism does not mean anti-Jew only because the common thread is Prophet Ibrahim. Somehow the Jews have attained the copyrights to the word 'anti-semitism' for their own exclusive use.

Aybody who insults even Muslims is anti-semitic! The term "anti-Semitic" (or "anti-Semite") usually refers to Jews only. It was coined in 1873 by German journalist Wilhelm Marr in a pamphlet called, "The Victory of Jewry over Germandom".

Good luck as you stumble and mumble....

Chumma to Umma!

Revisiting Islam

It's a monumental study that throws light on the scriptural basis of intolerance and its manifestations in history, says NS Rajaram

The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History
Author: Andrew Bostom
Publisher: Prometheus Books
Price: $39.95

Islam, we are constantly told, is a religion of peace and brotherhood. According to this view, terrorists taking innocent lives in its name are either ignorant of the true teachings of Islam or are driven to violence as a last resort because of injustices suffered at the hands of the victims -- Hindus, Jews and Christians. This claim of scriptural innocence and the historical reality are examined in detail in the monumental work, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism, by Andrew Bostom, the compiler of the equally monumental The Legacy of Jihad.

But first we must ask: Can we accept teachings and conduct in the name of religion that would be unacceptable on humanistic grounds? Quranic passages -- "When the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God (Allah) wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them with every kind of ambush..."; and, "Gather against them all your armies and your horses so you may strike terror in the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies..." -- need to be reinterpreted.

The scope of The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism is broader than what the title suggests. It is better seen as a study of the theology and practice of intolerance than as a study limited to the persecution of Jews under Islamic rule. Unlike Hindus who encountered the full fury of Islam five centuries after its founding, Jews have had to deal with it right from the start in countries stretching from Spain to Iran. We thus have not only the authentic scripture of Islam but also abundant historical records by Jews, Christians and Muslims. These are presented in a systematic manner, allowing us to get a vivid picture of the treatment of non-Muslims.

These records make it clear that there is no middle ground in Islam, of a spirit of live and let live. In the words of the philosopher KD Prithipaul of the University of Alberta (conveyed to this reviewer), Muslims can live only "as an oppressive majority or a turbulent minority". Even the Indian Sufi Shayk-Ahmad Sirhindi wrote: "Whenever a Jew is killed it is for the benefit of Islam." This was long before the creation of Israel.

In spite of this vast and unambiguous record spanning over a thousand years, there is no shortage of 'liberal' intellectuals who extol the tolerance shown by Islam. Economist Amartya Sen wrote that when the "Jewish philosopher Maimonides was forced to emigrate from an intolerant Europe in the 12th century, he found a tolerant refuge in the Arab (Muslim) world". The truth is that the 'intolerant' Europe Maimonides had to flee happened to be Spain then under Berber Muslim rule, which, according to Foujad Ajami, "made the life of Spanish Jews... utter hell".

The depth of hatred for Jews that permeates the Islamic scriptures is truly staggering, but Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) noted also a parallel tendency for denial: "Never did a nation molest, degrade, debate and hate us as much as they (Muslims)... Although we were dishonoured by them beyond human endurance,... we have acquiesced, both old and young, to inure ourselves to humiliation." This could well have been written about Hindus, especially their modern prophets of 'secularism.'

As part of this denial, Jews themselves joined hands with some apologist scholars to create the myth of a 'Golden Age' of Spain under Islamic rule. Jane Gerber explodes this myth: "The aristocratic bearing of a select class of courtiers and poets, however, should not blind us to the reality that this tightly knit circle of leaders was neither the whole of the Jewish history nor of Spanish Jewish society." This applies equally to the myth of India's 'Golden Age' under the Mughals with its 'synthetic culture' propagated by secularist historians.

Academic whitewashers of the Islamic record like Amartya Sen have now been joined by a brand of 'moderate' Muslims who claim that the extreme Wahaabi brand of Islam in force in countries like Saudi Arabia is a deviation from the true teachings. A prime example of these is Ed Husain, a reformed British radical Muslim and author of The Islamist. These 'moderates' are lionised by the establishment, especially in Britain. The same establishment, on the other hand, shuns serious critics like Ibn Warraq and the late Anwar Shaikh who raise uncomfortable questions.

A curious thing about these so-called moderates is that they live in open non-Islamic societies like the UK, the US and India where they enjoy the protection of democratic Governments. Their message of moderation is for public consumption and never taken to those who really need it -- the fundamentalists who rule Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, Al Qaeda and their ilk. In effect, they are little more than apologists.

The message to these 'moderates' is -- lip service is not enough. They must take a forthright stand and play an active role in reforming the Islam. All other religions -- Hinduism included -- have reformed themselves and continue to do so.

In summary, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism leaves little doubt that intolerance and violence are not a recent phenomenon due to Israel or Ayodhya or anything else, but only the latest phase in a theology and history that goes back 1,400 years. It is an indispensable source for every serious student of religion, especially of Islam and its history.

Someone wrote about saying chumma to islam, I take it chumma means pappiaN. Well the simple answer to that is when islam has got you by jappiaN its hard to pappiaN.

Re: # 285

"after 9/11, they just came back home.."

Infact we must applaud the Americans for their successful strategy of fighting the war in the enemy land of Jihadis than in their own home land.........

In that sense Bush succeeded in ensuring that Islam now implodes from inside taking the bull by its horn .........

Prophet Bush Zindabad!!!

Re: # 284

We have to ensure that dhimmi values do not get propagated in the name of multi-culturalism. Islam is the biggest propagator of the dhimmi values amongst non-muslims and hindus have to ensure that they resist any attempt to impose Arabic bedioun values over them.

We musr resist the attempts to make us "sensitive" to their religious beliefs when they supposedly feel offended when we pray to our deities using idols.

Infact we must praise idolatory all the time so that the attempt to impose the "supremacy" of their reified ego of Mohammad called Allah fails on all counts.

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unless other religions are dismantled hindus need to organize themselves as religion for self preservation since Indian state is failing or has failed. it's like nuclear weapons. you need to keep yours till every one decides to get rid of them.

hindus/indians did not know this deadly biological weapon called religion and suffered historically in terms of genocide, loss of territory and psychological slavery. if AA in US have deserves affirmative action, then hindus deserve it ten times more, if one considers the atrocities done on them by Islamic hoardes.

But there is some thing good in their Dharma thatr theyt are so successful all over the world. This is just a beginning, more happy days are here again.

Re: # 281 all the more better then (T) he is not sufficiently wolly headed then (T)

Re: # 280

tahmed is not an economist - he is an Engineer ......

Re: # 277

"you are implying that hinduism is a religion.."

It is certainly not a "religion" as understood by muslims....

Re: # 277 Tahmed32, a quick question
you must have solved a general non-linear equation of the form y=a1x^n+a2x^n-1+.....+an-1x? e.g a quadratic and cubic are just two forms of the same. For any given y you can have multiple solutions. For a given y and a quadratic you can have x taking two values positve and negative. Its upto you to pick the one you want - the correct one (both are right answers, but not correct)

OTOH for a simple linear equation y=mx+c there is one solution. You cannot exercise your right to pick the "correct" answer.

Just thought I might just pass this by you, knowing you are an economist.

tahmed,

religions tend to loot, plunder, enslave and rape people by calling the victims as not-chosen people, kafir and heathen. Islamic one goes further it oblitertes ones identity based on history, ancestory, language and culture. Islam creates ultimate slave and fool.

Did Hinduism spread to SE Asia like that? Did Buddhism spread like that all over? Did Jain and Sikhism spread like that within India and now in west? Kis ko chutya bana rahe ho?

Somewhere on this site I told some bhatii guy, the difference between Finland and Afghanistan is one, ie Islam.
By 1978, Finland had less number of engineering, science and medicine graduates than Afghanistan which was also under soviet influence just as finland.

We can wake up a sleeping dog but not the one who is pretending.

take your all other chauvanisti faunaistic words and feed them back into your rear. Closed loop is stable! poor abduls need to beware of people like you. they should hang people like you by their balls from the nearest lamp post. you miserable one, blurs the vision of poor abdul. Mulla Mandar red hot lipstickwala is another one who needs the same treatment.

Muslims who shout Allahu all the time are sure to turn into supremacists - I would admit that muslims have understood the almighty the day they can see their Allah even in the lowliest of the filth- Unfortunately, that day would never come!!

laddu: you are implying that hinduism is a religion, while your learned colleagues nkg/truth say that it is not. I guess you must both be right - after all you are hindus, and we all know hindus smell of perfume.

cheema sahib: i think you have your work cut out for you in your noble task of freeing mankind from religion. If you think this will solve anything, you are mistaken - even if you were to succeed in getting 6 billion individuals that there are no gods or God at the other end of the line when you pray; that if a black cat crosses your path it does not mean you are doomed.

As a doctor, you would know that you should first diagnose the problem than prescribe solutions.

So this is my diagnosis: The underlying reason for hatreds and general strife among mankind is the result of 3 billion years of evolution that have given rise to the tribal instinct, to fear, to aggressive behavior and other animal instincts. Religious fanaticism (and indeed even simple religious rituals and prayers to gods or God) are merely one manifestation of this underlying problem. Do you disagree with this diagnosis doctor?

Re: # 274

Sure, Hinduism can never be a mafiaso cult like Islam that tries to put on a "superior" garb and postures itself as a "religion".

#273 truth/nkg: Thanks for your interesting response: hinduism is not a religion. \

So - hinduism has gods (more gods than perhaps any religion), hinduism has rituals (among the most rituals in any religion), hinduism has fanatics (at least as vicious as any religion), hinduism has chauvinists (certainly a lot more than islamic chauvinists on chowk), hinduism has prayers (like any religion)..but hinduism is not a religion.

well..ok, if you insist. :-)

tahmed,

""what is so great of being a hindu?"

Simple, it's not a religion!

World has banned slavery, it's high time it bans religion!

Yes to Dharma but big NOO to religion!

Re: # 269

My derisive objection to such a subjective statement is the very criteria of "greatness" (as it is so evident in the chants of Allahu)that the person adapts especially when he is a muslim.

For an idolator like me to me Allah is nothing more than a perverse ego of Mohammad. Allah is not "superior" or even "great" . It is the lowliest of all the concepts that a mafioso leader can conjure to keep his men inspired for eternal orgies in case they die subjugating and looting non-muslims.

For kafirs, Allah is the most "inferior" of the Bedouin superstitions and NO "greatness" can be ascribed to it or to its followers!!!

Cheema ji, you know what our problem is - our (your and mine) actual beliefs are very very similar (you have probably noticed that), but there are small differences, and those differences get on our respective nerves :)

Hope you won't mind me sharing my thoughts. (According to our view - your and mine) it is far far better to think of everything being silly than to assume everything is 'right' (that stupid, dangerous, anti-Indian, anti-Hindu notion introduced by the politicians Gandhi-Nehru).

BUT silliness is not the same as good or bad. If we define what we mean by good or bad, we can actually show, with a good deal of confidence, that in specific ways, different things are actually and significantly better/worse than others.

If that is true, then any implication that 'they are all the same' or 'equally good' or 'equally bad' is way of short-circuiting the brain. That can also be used in apologia before an ignorant audience. We can do better than that.

Just a friendly comment. Please don't misconstrue it.

Re: # 213
“Thus far over a million have been butchered in Iraq...�

Yes but butchered by whom? As far as I can see it most of the violence against the Iraqis is committed by the insurgents.

“all the so called religo-ethnic violence you cite in Iraq was caused by the US invasion, not before, most of it is contrived.�

Contrived, you have to be kidding me. Sunni/Shia violence is not contrived its been around for over a thousand years. Pre-2003 Iraq was merely a totalitarian state that exsited for the benefit of a single ethnoreligous minority (Sunni Arabs) at the expense of all others. In that context such hatred and violence is not surprising.

“Suicide bombings in Pakistan are a post 9/11 US WOT phenomena.�

Your point? Does this along with Darfur, Lebanon, etc. change the fact that these guys behave like barbarians?

“Regarding the US global domination that has reduced half of the known world to an sub human existance of less than $1 a day, anyone can see what kind of results it produces.�

Again this is so typical, blaming everyone else for ones problems. How did countries like Japan, South Korea turn themselves into developed countries? They certainly did not do it by bitching at the West. The biggest problems for these countries is a population that sits on their asses and complains instead of actually trying to improve themselves.
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler

Re: # 267; nb

they are all sillier than one another......complex concept perhaps but when you think about it, makes perfect sense

Re: # 245

"what is so great of being a hindu?"

That is a silly question that originates from the supremacist chant of Allahu......

Nothing is sillier than the others, akcheema, a friend of mine was laughing at the Raelians. I said to her, how are they weirder than anyone else?

Re: # 245

"what is so great of being a hindu?"

Well, I think not being muslim is quite enough these days. At least Hindus are not heading toward being pariahs of the modern world due to the behavoir of fundamentalists.

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=419121&Category=14 &subCategoryID=
http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=419121&Category=1 4&subCategoryID=


"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler

Re: # 234

"First law. Law of islamic virulence

. The virulence of islam in a country is inversely proportional to its distance from mecca. That is why paki islam is more virulent than that in indonesia.

Second law. Law of jihadic borders.

. There will laways be fights on jihadic borders, that is borders between a muslim country and a non-muslim country."

Jay ji,

I mus applaud your superior understanding of Islam.....that was very perceptive indeed.....every idolater and kafir must understand these two laws.....

Re: # 260; tahmed sahib

I don't like these tit-for-tat comparisons personally

it may come as a surprise to you but I am NOT anti-religion per se.....I am against the concept of its misuse to spread hatred amongst human beings and since currently it is the main force involved in such crimes, I condemn those elements in whichever religion they are found

unfortunately, dogmatic religions (such as abrahamic ones) are based on belief in an unseen deity....can't be proved and can't be disproved.....so to logically have a discussion on this is absolutely impossible......hinduism is perhaps even sillier..........all one can do is to appeal to someone's better nature to listen

Re: # 260
hamid...
If you are that eager...It does not stink...

Re: # 254
tahmed...
there is nothing called Hinduism...some of the thoughts are eternal...
some part of Geeta and other vedantic literature definitely very valuable for life...

These are comments from Will Durant about fall of civilisation to islamic barbarism
Persia-
“For barbarism is always around civilization, amid it and beneath it, ready to engulf it by arms, or mass migration, or unchecked fertility. Barbarism is like the jungle; it never admits its defeat; it waits patiently for centuries to recover the territory it has lost.�
and
India-
"The bitter lesson that may be drawn from this tragedy is that eternal vigilance is the price of civilization. A nation must love peace, but keep its powder dry."

"The Story of Civilisation" is his long researched work and written before WWII (so, post 9/11 clash of civilisation excuse should not be dragged)...

#259 i didnt know what you were talking about. that is why i asked. then i figured it out in #258.

cheema sahib: since nkg is not responding, could you advise if hinduism smells of perfume?

Re: # 257

sorry I was only referring to some of PoW "analyses"; what did you think I was talking about?

ok i get it. you mean peonofthewest should make more frequent appearances. agreed. otoh, perhaps his time is more usefully spent outside chowk.

cheema sahib: i didnt understand #252.

Re: # 255; tahmed

what do I mean about what sir?

#252 cheema sahib: what do you mean?

#253 nkg: and hinduism smells of perfume?

Re: # 247
Tahmed...
Indian school textbooks do not teach stink of Islam or true face of Islam and barbarism associated with it...

Material and circumstantial evidences teach it....

Re: # 251

hmmmm....very intelligent I reckon; sadly the appearance could be more frequent

akcheema sahib: i am overly influenced by peonofthewest, sahib. :-)

Re: # 249; tahmed sahib

that many "sahibs" sir!....people might mistake you for PoW sir!

#248 akcheema sahib: i have a couple of legitimate questions for mr. truth, sir. please dont discourage him from enlightening me with the truth sahib.

truth mian....there is a purpose to your presence here and that is to keep certain people (that you've successfully bonded with already) under control and occupied so they don't go out and blow up the peace

leave tahmed sahib alone.....he's a good man

#246 "stink of islam"

what else do they teach you in india?

"
Re: # 233
Aslam...

"bloody horrible hindus are behind a lot of this to malign muslims..."...
Indians have not maligned moslem or Islam. Rather, it has hidden the stink of Islam for long period....If you know the meaning of "bloody" and "horrible", then you should know whom it suits better...

1) Indians never highlighted islamic barbarism to others. Rather tried to hide it for long time. If Indian history of mediaval period is taught with evidences, Western World would have kicked out moslems long back (Europe). Cong led Govt. tries to paint Brits in different color, but circumstancial and material evidence says how islamic barbarism destroyed India. Will Durant's "History of Civilisation" will provides nice insight of Islamic destruction of Northern India....It is the Indians like Romila Thapar, who spreads false history to hide Islamic barbarism in 13th century to 17th century. Destruction of Nalanda University, Somnath Temple, Kashi Viswanath Temple, Mathura Temple, Hampi, Mysore... list is very big. If you retain little bit of human sense (and loose bit of islamic value), you should be ashamed about these activities...

2) Post British period India should have taught Islamic barbarism to world about Direct Action day (great killings in Noahkhali and Calcutta), Khilafat Movement in Kerala (Moplah killings)...Gandhi tried to hide it and so his assiatants post 1951...

3) Jihadi activities in Kashmir and resultant displacement of Kashmiri Pundits....Indians never used this to kill and displace moslems from rest of India...Post partition, the way non-moslems migrated from Sindh and BD to India, the reverse migration is less than 1% of that...

When this problem spread to european heartland and far east (Balkan problem, Chechenya, Thailand, Mynmar, Philipines...Islamic/terrorist activtities by moslems in Germany, France, UK, Australia, Spain) India can not hide it.

Till last year, India was at least providing some good image of Islam...But then you can not suppress stink for long time...Two scoundrels from the beautiful city of Bangalore involved in airport bombing in UK and all falsehood shattered....

"
Nkg,

Very concise and fluent! You held the Islamic mirror with no shaking. Now no one can say the image is blurry.


Most of the Indians think our converted brothers and sisters must not allow their Islamic identity override their Indic civilizational identity. Get rid of Arabic imperialism and Indianize Islam. Kar Do Good Bye Chumma to Islamic Umma!

Own this land, its Hindu or Dharmic culture, its languages, its saints (spiritual and social leaders) and celeberate its diversity. You can be Shri. Mandar Multankar, and still be five time Namazi Mulla. Only request is don't go to distant land for Haj. If your neighborhood is not Macca and Madina for you, then you will not find Macca and Madina in some desert land.

#234 truth: what is so great of being a hindu?

Pakistan has more or less reversed in practice all that the new government was talking about the way of tackling Islamic militancy: at election time they were emphasising that a purely military approach to fighting Taliban and extremists, such as the Americans insist upon, is unwise. The problem must be addressed by political means, though use of force has to be kept in reserve for sparing use.

The Army chief was entrusted with the task of fighting Islamic extremism as best as he can the other day. That apparently has gladdened the hearts of the Americans who, according to Samuel Hersh of the New Yorker, have three top US secret agencies, along with the US Special Forces and Pakistani intelligence agencies targeting the Taliban leadership inside Waziristan.

Richard Boucher arrived once again in Pakistan for three days on June 30. He will go round meeting all the bigwigs of the state and party leaders. This is apparently the start of what the Americans have wanted: a coordinated military effort by Americans, NATO and Pakistanis. In NWFP’s tribal areas the US National Security Agency, the CIA and Defence Intelligence Agency along with Special Forces and Pakistani intelligence are said to be already active.

The second was the demonstrative military action in Khyber Agency, just outside Peshawar by paramilitary forces.
There was talk of possibly losing even Peshawar because the warlord Haji Mangal Bagh of Khyber Agency had started extorting money and throwing his weight about in Peshawar.

There are now two categories of Pakistani observers: Those who think that Talibanisation of Pakistan is underway and is irreversible and the others say the state has to be firm and act as the Americans advise to contain the Taliban.

The fact is that much of Frontier’s tribal areas are already slipping out of Pakistani control. Prime Minister Gilani frequently asserts that the government will re-establish the writ of the state. Please mark this will.

Names of each warlord-cum-Taliban commanders of an agency are known; it is also known that they are the real governments that are realising taxes through extortion, administering rough justice and providing what security there is.

Look at the typical Taliban commander or warlord. All he has to do is to find a rich patron, probably a narcotics producer with money to help raise a Lashkar even of 70-80 armed people.

He proclaims himself a Taliban commander and, hay presto, he rules. All he has to do is to be ruthless in imposing taxes, administering simple, inexpensive and quick justice to follow the example of Arabian Peninsula’s Middle Ages’ customs. This elicits admiration from simple, gullible Frontier Muslims – indeed the Sunni Muslims of all the subcontinent.

This is now a cottage industry. Once a commander raises a Lashkar, he can extort more money and he becomes the locality’s ruler. What is not prohibited by Taliban Islam is murdering opponents or kidnapping them for ransom.

Recently, Pakistan’s ambassador to Afghanistan was abducted from near Torkhum. He was recovered after several months on payment of a (huge) ransom. Money otherwise is floating around in the Frontier largely because of the flourishing heroin and cannabis trade.

The beneficiaries are probably no more than 500 or so rich individuals. The spread of such Islam is paradoxical for a place where civilisation goes back 6,000 years. Pakistan areas were the first where vedic culture flourished, followed by Buddhist era and later by Islam.

The real vulnerability of Pakistan lies in the proneness of gullible Muslims to admire everything associated with medieval mores of Arabian Peninsula, particularly of Mecca and Medina. What Prophet Muhammad and his companions said and did in accordance with their local traditions elicits now unlimited admiration. The notion is that everyone received just treatment then.

Taliban too impart supposedly honest and ruthless justice quickly and inexpensively. These qualities are greatly admired by the subcontinent’s Muslims who yearn for establishing such an Islamic state, though scholars differ what can it possibly be.

There are local reasons in Pakistan too. For 60 long years Pakistan state has flourished on a hollow and often dishonest rhetoric of Islam. Pakistanis have to pay the wages of 60 years of shallow and deceptive Islamic rhetoric and manipulations by Pakistan’s intelligence outfits: for over 21 years Pakistan has organised a Jihad in which hundreds of thousands of Pushtoon and Frontier people have participated: first in Afghanistan, then in Indian-controlled Kashmir and later again in Afghanistan’s civil war that erupted 1993 onwards.

Taliban conquered Afghanistan for Islam — maybe for Pakistan also. Taliban established an Islamic state that all Deobandi Muslims regarded as authentic Islamic State that must be supported by all. Today in Pakistan’s tribal areas any number of warlords or Taliban commanders are establishing just such Islamic statelets. These are the wages of the 60-year long bogus rhetoric.

Pakistan’s real vulnerability is its people’s admiration for ruthless medieval mores adopted by charlatans today seeking power and pelf. Their game has to be exposed as a first real step to contain them. Otherwise Talibanisation will continue and the more the armies of Pakistan and others kill the ordinary Pushtoons the more militants and radicals will be produced.

Most of the Indians think our converted brothers and sisters must not allow their Islamic identity override their Indic civilizational identity. Get rid of Arabic imperialism and Indianize Islam. Kar Do Good Bye Chumma to Islamic Umma!

Own this land, its Hindu or Dharmic culture, its languages, its saints (spiritual and social leaders) and celeberate its diversity. You can be Shri. Mandar Multankar, and still be five time Namazi Mulla. Only request is don't go to distant land for Haj. If your neighborhood is not Macca and Madina for you, then you will not find Macca and Madina in some desert land.

Nkg,

Very concise and fluent! You held the Islamic mirror with no shaking. Now no one can say the image is blurry.

Most of the Indians think our converted brothers and sisters do not allow their Islamic identity override all their indic civilizational identities. Get rid of Arabic imperialism and Indianize Islam. Kahe Do Good Bye Chumma to Islamic Umma!

Own this land, its Hindu or Dharmic culture, its languages, its saints (spiritual and social leaders) and celebrate its diversity. You can be Shri. Mandar Multankar and still be five time Namazi Mulla, only request is don't go to distant land for Haj. If your neighborhood is not Macca and madina then you will not find it in some desert land.

Amen!

Aslam....
Some sample of Indian value system and islamic/pakistani one....

Jamia Hafsa in Pakistan ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utNK7_jV9uM

and

Jaya Row Talking about Vedanta...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1dKkt0Rh4c
(some information about Jaya Row...
http://www.mgmt.purdue.edu/centers/ciber/events/gmf.htm)

Re: # 233
Aslam...

"bloody horrible hindus are behind a lot of this to malign muslims..."...
Indians have not maligned moslem or Islam. Rather, it has hidden the stink of Islam for long period....If you know the meaning of "bloody" and "horrible", then you should know whom it suits better...

1) Indians never highlighted islamic barbarism to others. Rather tried to hide it for long time. If Indian history of mediaval period is taught with evidences, Western World would have kicked out moslems long back (Europe). Cong led Govt. tries to paint Brits in different color, but circumstancial and material evidence says how islamic barbarism destroyed India. Will Durant's "History of Civilisation" will provides nice insight of Islamic destruction of Northern India....It is the Indians like Romila Thapar, who spreads false history to hide Islamic barbarism in 13th century to 17th century. Destruction of Nalanda University, Somnath Temple, Kashi Viswanath Temple, Mathura Temple, Hampi, Mysore... list is very big. If you retain little bit of human sense (and loose bit of islamic value), you should be ashamed about these activities...

2) Post British period India should have taught Islamic barbarism to world about Direct Action day (great killings in Noahkhali and Calcutta), Khilafat Movement in Kerala (Moplah killings)...Gandhi tried to hide it and so his assiatants post 1951...

3) Jihadi activities in Kashmir and resultant displacement of Kashmiri Pundits....Indians never used this to kill and displace moslems from rest of India...Post partition, the way non-moslems migrated from Sindh and BD to India, the reverse migration is less than 1% of that...

When this problem spread to european heartland and far east (Balkan problem, Chechenya, Thailand, Mynmar, Philipines...Islamic/terrorist activtities by moslems in Germany, France, UK, Australia, Spain) India can not hide it.

Till last year, India was at least providing some good image of Islam...But then you can not suppress stink for long time...Two scoundrels from the beautiful city of Bangalore involved in airport bombing in UK and all falsehood shattered....

Islam is peace, but for the world peace, let Islam parmanently rest in peace!

Re: # 233; aslam sahib

may I urge you to snap out of this pathetic, rather melancholic and melodramatic, frame of mind and get up, claim "British-ness" to be a part of your life and be a productive citizen for your adopted homeland.......whether you like it or not YOU chose it as your adopted home; if you are still unhappy, you are welcome to choose from a variety of Islamic kingdoms/sheikhdoms/pseudo-democatic-doms and relocate so you can feel happy about yourself and life in general

on the same token, allow me to pose a question here; if you were living in Pakistan and a bunch of (say for arguments sake mohajirs) caused you some grief, would you turn against Pakistan as a result?......if the answer is NO, then extend the same respect to your new homeland and make it work....considering it to be an "internal" problem rather than whingeing and whining on-line about the apathy of the Ummah towards your cause (whatever that may be)...............you can't fool me with all this; someone who has spent more than 25 years of his short life in the country..(from birth on) and I am well aware of the "distress" suffered by my "community" there

Kind regards

http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/04bsp.htm

He says he came just a year ago. His family was close to Nawaz Sharif's people, he claims, and due to that factor alone, business had suffered quite a lot in Lahore. "So, how did you manage to get entry into America?" I ask. "Bahut mushkil se mila," he replies and tells me the story of his getting political asylum.

He had first come under a tourist visa, having paid a hefty amount to an agent for the visa facilitation. Having arrived in America he had the good fortune to get the right Jewish lawyer with a specialisation on asylum cases from Pakistan.

The lawyer arranged a medical examination to show the bruises that Rafiq had received from the treatment in the police station; he then got a testimony from a famous Pakistani political analyst at an American university -- and here Khan mentions a name that I recognise -- who charged $3,000 to testify how Nawaz Sharif loyalists had suffered under the previous regime in Punjab, and finally Rafiq himself had satisfied the judges about his knowledge and credentials.

The judge had cross-examined him to test whether he was a political activist or a fake and Rafiq was certainly more knowledgeable than the judge about the intricacies of South Asian politics. He was lucky, he says, mainly in finding the right lawyer. But after all this, now, his party has won. Will he be sent back? He is deeply worried. "Democracy to accha hi hai, phir bhi apna sochna padta hai," he says as I pay him and leave.

There are other laws as well:

Law of Identity

Law of Fanaticism of Recent Converts

Law of Abdulization of poor and Ahmedification of Rich who will sell their mothers to whites

It's not that simple. Some one here was saying Islam is simple. Islam may be simple but Islamification is weird and complex. It slowly takes away all your identities and implants Arab identity stronger than the native Arabs themselves.

A good sample is Mulla Mandar multankar with red hot lipstick and pink maskara.

#233 by aslam644

bloody horrible hindus are behind a lot of this to malign muslims, like....

Why just the "bloody horrible Hindus" yaar Aslam, the whole world is out to malign the oh-so-poor-and-innocent Muslims :-(

There are two laws of sociology, known as the first and second laws of islam, which help non muslims understand muslims.

First law. Law of islamic virulence

. The virulence of islam in a country is inversely proportional to its distance from mecca. That is why paki islam is more virulent than that in indonesia.

Second law. Law of jihadic borders.

. There will laways be fights on jihadic borders, that is borders between a muslim country and a non-muslim country.

Indo pak ( hindu muslim), Isreal palestine ( jew muslim), Philippines ( christian muslim )

bloody horrible hindus are behind a lot of this to malign muslims, like deeyah the muslim madonna in fact she has been exposed as a afghan-panjabi-hindus she claims she is a muslim to get publicity and that mullahs are after her because she changes from burkha to bikini it's been exposed as just a stunt to make millions.

#231 last two para to be interchanged...

Re: # 225
masadi...
In Sudan and Nigeria, it is arab/islamic barbarism vs. afrcan identity/christain identity. Rwanda is different story and I have not mentioned it (like Kashmiri jihadis are different from Naxalites in India)...
USA possess sophisticated arms, which can kill entire Iraqi population with bio-ammunitions and thermo bombs. Still they are judicious in killing (kill when US marines are attacked)...

Majority of the people killed in Iraq are from clash between Muqtada Al sadar's Mehdi Army and Sunni Groups...

On the other hand islamic barbarians leaving no opportunity to kill...

A good day...and you wonder why muslim gettos.

Suicide bombing in afghanistan against indians, suicide bombing in pakistan against fellow muslims, suicide bombing in iraq against shias.

I wonder why the world is suspicious of muslims.

By teh way, is there any mullah criticising any of this done in the name of islam.

Muslim ghettos of the west are part of a global trend to limit the jihadic crimes emnating from muslim countries. India has fenced paki border, israel has fenced islamic frontier, bangladesh is being fenced out.

All through the world, where there is an islamic frontier, there has been wars and the only way to contain thsi is to fence them out, deny technology and travel, and leave them there to fight and kill among them.

That is happening in pakistan, afghanistan and other muslim countries.

Ghettos are a reality and are infact NECESSARY for the migrants (with low skills or from country sides) with different cultures to integrate with the alien cultures.

The problem is that when the Ghettos becomes defined as a guerrilla warfare camp in the enemy land (dar-ul-harb) that the siege mentality sets in the dwellers who consider that Ghetto as their god's abode from where they must fight and subdue the alien culture instead of integrating with it!!

This is EXACTLY the state of muslim ghettos- they cannot integrate because the Arabian Allah wants the momeens to "subdue" other cultures with the Arabic Bedouin imperialism.

They want other cultures to "respect" their goatee, their camel and other aspects of Arabian nonsense in return for Dhimmitude so that they can live off the Dhimmi Tax like Allah's jamai!!!

Mulla Mandarji,

If you want to fight west and US in particular why dont you move to Macca and Madina and have your fight there. Leave poor paki Abdul alone. He is much wiser than you fool with pink maskara.

Re: # 224 Mulla Mandar Multankar with red hot lipstick,

"I didn't chop of history, you did regarding the colonial partition of India and the perpetrators of the Bangali Killing"

What about colonial partition, Mullaji with pink maskara? Mullaji isn't the fact that the only action Islamist like you ever did was the Day of Action in Naukhali and Kolkata, against innocent Hindus, and that you guys never raised even your little finger against colonists?

3 million might be underestimate because the media reporting was Time and newsweek which were siding you guys. Hindus interefered only when 10M refugees came to India, some of the women with stories of horrendous brutality such as gang rape, cutting of breasts and mutiliation of sexual organs.

Face it Mulla Red Lipstick, it is Islam stupid! If its followers are so brutal and barbaric then ther must be something in the Koran to make them that way.

nkg writes "...and millions killed in Sudan, Nigeria...displaced Copts in Egypt,..."

Comparing the ethnic/civil strife in countries like Rwanda and Sudan etc to the US jumping the ocean to destroy entire nation states with impunity is not credible, not to mention that the numbers cited by this fool are not credible as well. These civil wars are a legacy of the colonial past of playing one against the other- as in the case of Rwanda, and when they happen the major powers stand back and let them bleed or wait for an opportunity to intervene for material/political benefits to the detriment of the local populations-as in Somalia, they are part and parcel of the killings that go on. No nation has started wars against much weaker opponents killing millions in the process by jumping oceans as the US has and currently it maintains a network of over 800 military bases at strategic locations around the globe for just such domination, Sudan doesnt have them neither does Nigeria...

shi*101 writes "How about Pakistani butchering 3 Million in Bangladesh?.."

I didn't chop of history, you did regarding the colonial partition of India and the perpetrators of the Bangali Killing (3 million being an exaggeration) being the Pakistan Army, which was at the time totally subservient to the US elite- not to mention the role of Hindu F'cks whose interference only exasperated the response of the barbarians of the US occupation force, the Pakistan Army...

majumdar writes "Aint Iraq and A'stan worse victims of US imperialism than Pak?"

As hard targets yes but not regarding "changing the agenda of the world in fighting America's wars to the detriment of local need fulfilment and democracy", the context of those comments, in which Pakistan is ground zero; as usual you pick on non-issues to argue with me, lesser or greater wasn't the point, the point was America's global system of tyranny....

Re: # 103
SRK...
Adult according to Islamic law/Prophet or GB law? For moslems above 9 should be treated as adult....

British muslims have spoken and protested against injustices/persecution of muslims in Kashmir, Palestine, bosnia etc. why have the rest of the ummah forsaken us there has been not even a verbal protest from even one country among over 50 muslim countries. Our mosques have been firebombed, our women have been spat at, our girls hijabs have been torn. The right wingers among white-brits who used to wear islamaphobia has a badge of pride, even they are saying enough is enough.

Islam is very active again....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7492601.stm

Re: # 217

majamidar saab,

he is working on it saab. everything in the world is due to us-elite saab, that is what masadi saab's theory is saab

he puts it with lot of words and abuse saab and that is what his life is saab. no woman saab, that is the problem saab

#216 Truth...
...and millions killed in Sudan, Nigeria...displaced Copts in Egypt, butchered and diaplaced Pundits in Kashmir etc....
all in the hands of mullahs with very less equipment. What would have heppened, if you provide the sophisticated weapons (like that USA and Europeans possess) to these arabs and arab slaves?

Masadi sahib,

Aint Iraq and A'stan worse victims of US imperialism than Pak?

Regards

Re: # 213 Mulla Mandarji,

"Thus far over a million have been butchered in Iraq, 2 million or more in Vietnam, all the so called religo-ethnic violence you cite in Iraq was caused by the US invasion, not before, most of it is contrived."

How about Pakistani butchering 3 Million in Bangladesh? Why do you "chop off" history? Sewctarian violence in Pakistan is also caused by US, Mullaji with pink Maskara?

#214, post 9/11 fighting the US WOT, please read the comments in their context...

Masadi sahib,

Why do you say that Pak has been the foremost victim of US imperialism? There have been many others, no?

Regards

Shattered Sun writes "Butchering humanity in the millions? Since when the US kill millions of people? Unjust global system? Please be specific it is hard to answer generalities. "

Thus far over a million have been butchered in Iraq, 2 million or more in Vietnam, all the so called religo-ethnic violence you cite in Iraq was caused by the US invasion, not before, most of it is contrived. Suicide bombings in Pakistan are a post 9/11 US WOT phenomena. Sanctions on Iraq similar killed over a million. People kept impoverished by an unjust basic commodities trade regime ensure that infant mortality and deaths through basic disease that kill ov er 40,000 every day remain at a high level.

Regarding the US global domination that has reduced half of the known world to an sub human existance of less than $1 a day, anyone can see what kind of results it produces. Changing the agenda of the globe to fighting America's wars to a detriment of local need fulfilment and democracy, the foremost victim of which has been Pakistan is similarly going to kill hundreds of thousands if not millions in this coming decade. You need to get an education, my time is quite limited to go through this global system 101 basics with you

This is for the information of the Asadite heretic; your response where you likened me to a dog (interact 132) has been registered.

Re: # 101
"So - reflect upon this. Those who run from the west to Pakistan to seek to raise their girls in a "moral" environment have to be the biggest fools there are in the world. "

Moral education like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utNK7_jV9uM

Re: # 57
Arjun...
Sikh ghettoisation is definitely not good, though it is not problematic. What Guru Gobind Singh prescribed to sikhs to tacle islamic barbarism, is not applicable to Sikhs living in modern day India or UK. So, they should be little more flexible...

Hamid...
most of the indian engineers working in USA have little more civilised food habit (vegetarians) than average US citizens...lack of availability of such food is reason behind this mess...

Re: # 205

[I will speak whatever I wish]

Well said, Eklavya!

nb, good for you, and now bye.

You can say what you wish, chakkarbaaz, but I don't need to pay attention to it, which is why I didn't even read the post except to see that you were telling me not to insult cheema..will have to see how impressed cheema is with his new-found fan.

nb, I don't know what is between you and cheema bhai, but I will speak whatever I wish. Thank you for your consideration. :)

Re: # 179 Posted by Ahmadi_Mureed on July 6, 2008 4:20:16 pm

Ahmadi Mureed Sahib,

{.... Churches priests always dream about becoming billionaires} So? What would you say to those muslims (such as Ahmedis, Ismailis, Bohras, etc.) who collect millions of dollars, as well for their respective flocks?

You are confused between a society of material wants in this world, and a society that is geared towards a world of here-in-after.

{...hence their laws are pro individualism and consumerism.}

There is nothing wrong in being an individualist. It requires courage, determination, and responsibility for actions taken. These are better than the muslim land's communal laws. Aren't they?

As for Consumerism, this is becoming a thing of the past. People in the US, have been rudely awaken to the ills of high consumerism.

The muslim society moral police has rightly identified the issues that we face in the west. However, they have been unable to provide any alternative to be followed in this world.

Matloob Zaman, I see a day when cars will run on faecal matter and India will export all faecal matter overseas, not leaving enough for our own people.

Mr. Iftikhar, the problem is not confined in UK or Europe alone. I have seen similar ghettoes in metros in India too. These are called mini-Pakistans. In Mumbai it is in Bandra and VT areas (close to Crawford market), in Calcutta it is in Metiabruz and Rajabazar (den of criminals) and Rahmath Nagar in Bangalore. Whether it is cosmo Mumbaikars, or talkative, culture and politics loving Bengalees or cool and gentle Bangaloreans, all find it difficult to assimilate with typical urdoo/islamic practices.Common thread ... some mosques and madressahs, urdoo script and language (totally different from any Indian language and script), typical islamic dress burqa... for women and bearded, skull capped, bizzare dressed, strong and strangely perfumed... males...following mediaval arab rituals...very little involvement with local issues and cultural events....
The migration of muslims in Britain started during WWII and contineued couple of more decaded. Most of these people were involved in blue colored works in Britain. After 1970s, Britain is sliding rapidly in industry and so these workers are now redundant. They marry fellow Pakistanis and breed rapidly and change demographic pattern. This creates such a situation that it becomes impossible for civilised people to live in these areas...People starts avoiding the area...Last problem, I have seen in Calcutta in very large extent. In couple of roads (Bishop Lefroy Road- where Satyajit Ray used to live and Raja Dinendra Street...) the demarcation line between Urdoo/Moslem area and local people are very high....
Now, who to blame for this? People around India, Europe or muslims...You have to decide. In Sanskrit, one saying " yosmin deshe yadachara" in English it is called "while in Rome, do as Romans do"...
Regarding immigrant contribution, I don't think muslim contribution is above national average. The immigrant statistics include Chinks, Indians and Jews...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4434146.stm


Though, most of the immigrants face some sort of racial distrimination, it is duty of the immigrants to integrate...

Britain is still one of the most civilised places. Otherwise, where on earth they will tolerate such nuisance...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2784591.stm


Conclude with broken finger joke...
" A patient rushed to a doctor and complaints, "where ever I touch with my index finger, it hurts. There must be someting terribly wrong with my body". After investigation, doctor found that the patient has broken his finger.

Whether Cheema is offended or not is between him and me, don't presume to speak for him.

Pakistanis,

Beirutization or more accrately Kabulization of Islamabad has started. Mulla Mandar Multankar does not know that he will be the first one to be hanged from the lamp post because of his pink maskara. Plans for evacuation of ambessies

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=15823
By Ikram Hoti

ISLAMABAD: Important diplomatic missions in Islamabad, especially the US and the British missions, are discussing with Pakistani authorities new security plans which, according to sources, could include logistics of emergency evacuation, if at all needed.

Re: # 197
Yes, a lesson to be learned by those who continue to waste their waste.

nb, cheema bhai is an intelligent man. Please don't insult him by offering the kind of defense you offer.

No non-Muslim would object if Cheema bhai calls himself a Muslim (for his own safety, so long as he also stays in unIslamic lands). But to insist that others accept him as a Muslim too, when he has clearly rejected Islam (this week), would not be fair.

#196, hey that's pretty cool. I think that's fantastic!

Street Lights in India Powered By Poop!

Yes, you read it correctly: The street lights in the Indian town of Thiruneermalai are run on digested curry. As National Geographic describes it, the human waste from an area housing complex collects in a sump, where the methane gas produced by the "sludge" is used to operate a generator. This biogas produces 3,000 watts of electricity daily, enough to keep the town bright at night. And you thought ovens running on garbage were gross. A friend who lived there this past spring tells me it never smelled bad, but then again, he's been known to generate a fair share of biogas himself. (Just kidding, Gelf!) [National Geographic]
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071210-bioelex-vide o-ap.html

More curry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRjLgSkBOGU

Re: # 183
What are you talking about? Kaal? Kaal's not happy because he likes people to stay in neatly defined boxes. I would suggest it is a waste of your time talking to people who specialise in obsfucating the issues athand

#178 Posted by BJ2 on July 6, 2008 4:19:17 pm

really? fulltime students are allowed to work 60 hrs/week? OPT is after you complete your course, isn't it?

All about currrrrrrry


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkwtehQ0G3I

Re: # 180

Boys are raised by the society and daughters by the family.

Re: # 165 Mike,

Ghetoization suppsedly happens for preserving the identity. For Marathi or Pune muslim which identity is the most important? Muslim? That is also fine. You can make it the most important by doing five times Namaz, reading and contempalting on Koran. Why do you have to crush all other identities? Real understanding of Koran and meditation of Namaz will make you understand that Islamic identity is like a game, not eternal but temporal. You play it as per its rules but the rules need to be for the internal being and mind organs. Why do you have to change your name to Arabic names? Why Mullah Mandar Multankar needs to become Mohammed Asadi? Why western Hare Krishna folks need to have a choti and dhoti? If it is easy to dance, then they should wear only Langoti.

oh gosh, you get so upset over such a trivial thing, cheema ji.

cheema bhai, we should ALL oppose things and people that create confusion among others merely for their personal pleasure and personal convenience. Gain to you is personal and trivial (individual's belongingness), but the cost to all others is public and huge (confusion and increased opportunities for conflict).

Look, nobody wants to mislabel anyone. May be we should have a new group of people - Muslims Without Islam, or something of that sort - so nobody is confused. That's not asking for too much. :(

that's the whole thing....religious belief IS different....even within one person the ideas wander and change during the course of time.....so according to your twisted thinking they are muslim one minute and non-muslim the other??

that is a truly sick way of thinking you have ....may wash with some naive folk here but not with me matey! and that is precisely why you are on my tail constantly

and what about the "different" interpretations we have heard right here?..........if you have issues with people like Murad sahib about YOUR belief systems (he is the only muslim here attempting to speak on hinduism), take it up with him....I don't "interpret" your religion and you leave me alone.....take your sickness somewhere else; better still see a professional

yeah mohar, but hamidm is right about that darn smell. :)

----------------------

cheema bhai, it's precisely the same reason that people are strictly forbidden to put up wrong signposts on highways. Folks can make up any old signs and put them up within the four walls of their homes so nobody sees them and gets confused.

Re: # 172 hamid

well, if you think about - america is what it is because of the curry... Curry is what Columbus was looking for when he stumbled upon america - he wasn't looking for peanut-butter smeared on cold bread... he was looking for real food, real cuisine, invented and enjoyed by real civilized people...

so in that sense - it's high time curry found its rightful place in america, late as it may be... Curry has already taken over brit-land - next is america... ENough with cold turkey already...

Re: # 172 hamid

well, if you think about - america is what it is because of the curry... Curry is what Columbus was looking for when he stumbled upon america - he wasn't looking for peanut-butter smeared on cold bread... he was looking for real food, real cuisine, invented and enjoyed by real civilized people...

so in that sense - it's high time curry found its rightful place in america, late as it may be... Curry has already taken over brit-land - next is america... ENough with cold turkey already...

Re: # 172 hamid

well, if you think about - america is what it is because of the curry... Curry is what Columbus was looking for when he stumbled upon america - he wasn't looking for peanut-butter smeared on cold bread... he was looking for real food, real cuisine, invented and enjoyed by real civilized people...

so in that sense - it's high time curry found its rightful place in america, late as it may be... Curry has already taken over brit-land - next is america... ENough with cold turkey already...

I am still at a loss as to why the inclusion or exclusion of someone from Islam should bother a self-proclaimed right wing hindu so much?

Tahmed:

Thanks

enjoyed chatting with you, mureed sahib. I have to go now. Khuda Hafiz.

Ahmedi_Murad #179: yes indeed muslim nations need to work "more social welfare and better governance issues". but they are too busy operating on the right side of the decimal, like i said.

Pakistan is a wonderful place to raise children - if you are among the lucky few who can actually provide them with food, clothing and an education. For those like the couple in Thatta I mentioned, it clearly is not. These are burning issues, Mureed sahib. Not idle issues that mullahs entertain themselves with.

And I raised my children in the US, and I could have raised them in Pakistan (being among the lucky few mentioned above). And I am very pleased with the results. They were taught things in kindergarten in the US that had to do with morality that I have seen lacking in individuals raised in Pakistan who succeeded in getting MBA's from Harvard or became rich doctors in the US.