Swat: Can the deal work?

yaar mohar, but for minor differences in translation, the sermon won't change depending upon the source! I provided just the first link I found, and Pakistan3 kindly provided the entire text, because it is important.

The purpose of the five pillars and the last sermon is to create the group and individual identities and political orientations of Muslims. That's all. Those are not the source of any social set up. :)

Kaal

"cyberistan.org" is your source?... ha ha... I mean really - cyberistan?... wtf dude!!!

Anyhoo - five-pillars, ten-pillars - who cares?... Like you said - there are thousands of way so interpret the bedouin text written 1400 years ago... so, that cannot be the source of any modern social setup, even where muslims are majority...

Ladduji,

Do you ask to prophet Dawood or prophet Chota Shakeel?

Ahmed madani sahib,

Come a bit late to the Board. But thank you very much for wholesome entertainment that you have provided on this thread, especially your dissertations on the Moghals, Italians, Punjabis, grass eating Shastri and meat eating Ayub etc.

Although I am afraid your theories wont go down well with some folks.

Regards

Re: # 239

Please tell us the authenticity and source of this sermon.!!

#234 Posted by Eklavya

And the conflict or not has to be with the Message, not with these five pillars which are merely five ways of creating a very specific community and mindset.

LoL. If there had been any conflict with those five pillars, there wouldn't have been ANY Muslims left since long before - but only murtids. It is these five pillars with NIL opposition which keeps WCFBs etc under the same umbrella.

Let there be conflict with the 'message', it doesn't matter. The 'sixth' pillar adequately compensates for that! That's the perfection of the design.

Thanks, Pakistan3

That's a brilliant and powerful message to Muslims that defines what it means for one to call oneself a Muslim.

Please do keep an eye out if anything we get wrong here. We don't want to misrepresent or misunderstand. Thanks.

Re: # 238

THE LAST SERMON OF THE HOLY PROPHET (PBUH)

This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul-Hijjah, 10 A.H. (632 CE) in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat in Makkah. It was the occasion of the annual rites of Hajj (the pilgrimage). It is also known as the Farewell Pilgrimage.




After praising, and thanking Allah (The One True God) the Prophet began with the words:


"O People! lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore, listen carefully to what I am saying and Take These Words to Those Who Could Not Be Present Here Today.

“O People! just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that he will indeed reckon your deeds.

“Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligations shall henceforth be waived. Your capital is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) be waived.

“Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabiah ibn al-Harithiah.

“O Men! the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calender in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to prohibit which Allah has made permissible. With Allah the months are twelve in number. Four of them are holy, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Shaban.

“Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope of that he will be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

“O People! it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

“O People! listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers, fast during month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat (obligatory charity). Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly.

“Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware, do not astray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

“O People! No Prophet or Apostle Will Come after Me and No New Faith Will Be Born. Reason well, therefore, O People! and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QUR’AN and my SUNNAH (i.e., sayings, deeds, and approvals) and if you follow these you will never go astray.

“All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.

“Be my witness O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

As part of this sermon, the Prophet recited them a Revelation from Allah which he had just received and which completed the Qur’an, for it was the last passage to be revealed:


This day the disbelievers despair of prevailing against your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me (Allah)! This day have I perfected for you your religion and fulfilled My favor unto you, and it hath been My good pleasure to choose Islam for you as your religion (Surah 5, Ayah 3).
The sermon was repeated sentence by sentence by Safwan's brother Rabiah (RA), who had a powerful voice, at the request of the Prophet and he faithfully proclaimed to over ten thousand gathered on the occasion. Toward the end of his sermon, the Prophet asked “O people, have I faithfully delivered unto you my message?" A powerful murmur of assent “O Allah, yes!", arose from thousands of pilgrims and the vibrant words “Allahumma na’m� rolled like thunder throughout the valley. The Prophet raised his forefinger and said: “Be my witness O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

Those who wish to understand the identity can read the sermon here (in addition to thinking about the implication of the five pillars):

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sermon.html

About the instructions in the Quran, there is infinite flexibility of interpretation (so long as one actually reads and is sincere in one's beliefs) and there is NO (NONE) earthly way to judge someone completely right or wrong in any absolute or final sense.

It won't be easy to create a non-Muslim secular system that can be aligned with this way of being and thinking.

Dost-Mittar ji, what is considered fair and just is also an interesting issue (please note, some of us repeatedly warn that we must NEVER be caught in the dialogue of what is just and fair).

Anyways, I do have to run. And since it is important, may be, just clarify something simple. (and our Muslim friends may correct us, if necessary).

-----------------

Five Pillars + Final Sermon (Non-Muslims should read the final sermon a few times to grasp where Muslims as a community come from) create a very specific community and mindset.

The Quran provides the specific set of instructions to be followed. Most importantly, it gives the call to create a society that promotes virtue and oppose vice (as described in the book of instructions). (It is here the conflict may or may not arise).

(For many) the Prophet's life, deeds, and sayings provide amplications and clarifications regarding the instructions.

eklavya:

You seem to be taking the view that everything is "political" in the final anaysis, and you may have a point there. But "political" or not, as long as your actions are not designed to upset the apple-cart, it's all okay. It is for the society at large to be on guard and to closely monitor communal activities to ensure that they do not cross those boundaries. They did cross that threshhold in England and were close to doing so in Canada but were checked.

But here, too, justice and fairplay is important. For example, you cannot give rights to one religious community to run their separate schools (as is the case in my province of Ontario) and deny it to other religious communities. This was the critical issue in the last provincial elections and the party that advocated those rights to other communities (strangely, the Conservative party in this case) lost this election and one can see why some communities, including the muslim community might consider it unfair.

"Until then, "dialogue" serves no purpose. The side that has power, wins."

In fact, real and influential players in religious politicking don't even spend their time on 'dialogue.' They KNOW our hearts are closed. They focus exclusively on increasing a community's power through assorted means.

---------

Yeh tau hum aur aap hain jau waqt zaaya kartein hain 'agreemnent' talaash karne mein :)

dm ji,

Do you see those five pillars as pure religious politics or anything else? So, that is the first issue about whether anything like political or non-polical Islam exists, or not.

And the conflict or not has to be with the Message, not with these five pillars which are merely five ways of creating a very specific community and mindset.

-------------

"do not expect the country to make a different set of laws to suit your religious sensibilities."

That is just a matter of political power, as to who gets to make laws and how? If communities are relatively powerless, they cannot expect any such thing. Once they gain power, they make (and will make) laws according to their sensibilities. That is how it should be.

Until then, "dialogue" serves no purpose. The side that has power, wins.

Ekavya:

Those five obligations can be met because they do not conflict with any of the secular laws of most countries; this incidentally cannot be said of all religions; for example if a hindu says that it is his right not to be served food by a muslim, it goes against the individual rights of someone else and can be refused.

The point is that as long as your rights as a religious entity are consistent with the laws of the land, it is fine but do not expect the country to make a different set of laws to suit your religious sensibilities.

politics: arranging people's beliefs, language, and social relations and practices to gain and maintain power/supremacy for self and exercise direct and indirect control over others.

dm ji, the five pillars, as I roughly understand them, are as follows.

(1) There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's (final) prophet.

(2) A Muslim must pray (in arabic?) (five times a day) by facing toward Mecca.

(3) Must give alms. I am not sure who, in practise, the beneficiaries of those alms are - other Muslims alone or non-Muslims too. If it is Muslims, this is a great way of strengthening the communal brotherhood.

(4) Fasting to become better Muslims.

(5) Visit Mecca at least once (hajj) and thus become a hajji.

---------------

Opinions may differ if each of these is a different way of religious politicking or anything else.

Yes, individuals are important in every community, but are treated differently in different communities. Hamidm bhai knows exactly where he stands when it comes to the influence he can hope to attain.