Government Wins Manmohan Singh Loses

anil #: "That is where the west will remain involved with radical Islam till it is tamed, or it wins over the world."

...one of the biggest misconceptions i have noticed amongst americans is to equate themselves with the, "west"...the west and the usa are slowly turning into two different entities....not in domestic policies, but certainly in foreign policy.....hence the usa and west cannot be viewed as one any longer...

...i don't think radical islam can rule the world, and i don't think the usa can get rid of it either....it is definitely on the rise, however, and everything the usa has done has not been able to control this rise.....in fact, it may well have result in assisting the rise, inadvertently....

....the usa needs a complete rethink on its foreign policy.....ten years ago, the usa was viewed as a powerful singular superpower......today it is defeated everywhere....surely its planning hasn't worked....

.....radical islam on the other hand is about to claim two victories against the west - iraq and afghanistan (even if we consider these to be nationalistic wars of liberation, radical islam will claim them as its own)....

....in addition, islamist parties are winning everywhere from turkey to lebanon.....keep in mind that turkey and lebanon are, easily, the two most westernised muslim countries in the world.......

.....the rest of the west, contrary to what you are saying, seems to have absolutely no interest in fighting radical islam.....they are doing their best to simply stay away from it......the usa is getting very little cooperation from western allies in its military escapades......almost none....the european view seems to be to not take on radical islam, but to keep it outside its borders, as much as possible, without antagonizing the radical islamists in foreign lands.....

.....pakistan is also slowly and wisely realizing that negotiations are the best way to deal with people who have no problems in blowing themselves up, i.e. let them stay in fata.....if you fight them, they will end up in islamabad.....

.....the usa is set on leaving iraq and accepting defeat.....the reasoning it is presenting is that it will use those troops to fight the real war against radical islam, i.e. in afghanistan.....

.......i am afraid this will not work....the usa is going to get totally bogged down in afghanistan also, and will face far higher casualities in afghnaistan than it did in iraq, if its troop levels reach the same as that in iraq.....

and currently, other than pakistan, no other allied country is willing to commit more than a few thousand (if that) troops in afghanistan.......

......when the iraq war started, i had repeatedly stated on this site that the usa would lose.....trust me if the usa makes a full-fledged thrust into afghnanistan, its loss there, will make iraq look like a coffee party....

......in addition, the usa wants to go into fata......it will get bogged down there also......pakistani troops know the region, but got bogged down with 70k + troops.....how in the world will the usa fight there......i have visited that region a bit.......trust me those guys will beat the living daylights out of us troops.......the only thing usa will be able to do is aerial bombing, which will, simply, kill civilians......

i have always said, if the usa wants to invade fata, pakistan should let it do so, without supporting either side.......

on top of it, the usa is thinking of attacking iran!.....iran is three times the size of iraq, with a standing military and a much more homogeneous population, supported by a democracy.......they will bomb the strait of hormuz, and will target the remaining us soldiers in iraq....another war the usa will lose.......

........at the moment, it is radical islam 2 - usa 0......with the odds moving in favor of radical islam, even more.......

......i have seen hardly any intelligent discourse in the usa on how to handle radical islam......which is why the usa is losing, despite throwing everything, including the kitchen sink at radical islam......

.....the usa, in my opinion, has two choices......(the third choice of military defeating radical islam having hugely failed)...... a) it can do what europe is doing and simply avoid radical islam and secure itself internally to ensure no 9/11 occurs again.....b) revamp its complete foreign policy, regarding supporting dictatorships in the middle east, review its policies in israel/palestine etc....despite its support of dictatorships, oil still shot up beyond $140/barrell........

(europe has one huge advantage over the usa....there is no group in europe that can, overly, influence its foreign policy........in case of usa, i think the pro-israeli lobby has overwhelming influence, when it comes to what america does in the middle east, and due to this, i doubt the usa will be able to give up its previous policies......these are actually favoring the rise of radical islam)....

Vinash Kale Viparit Buddhi!

The time has come to reserve all property, jobs, govt contracts, education facility to Dharmic people just as they do it in Kashmir valley for Islamists. India needs to abandon democracy and secularism for five years and follow China in every respect.

Re: # 102

parthab,

A "blind" case is a case where there are no eye witnesses!!

This Jehadic blast was done in full view of hundred of hindu idolator witnessess.

Unless you also like most of the Islamists do not consider the testimony of idolators as per the Shariah Law!!

It would be "blind" only for blind dhimmis like you!

Re: # 103

Kaale Khan,

"..17 serial blasts ripped across the city on Sunday leaving 15 killed and 30 injured sending a wave of panic...."

You are obviously mouthing the Islamists propaganda.

I am sure idolators like me would be happy to see you and your family at place where those innocent people were killed in Jehad by the momeens.........

Why Islamists are compalining and saying India is now a client state?

India is the third largest economy. More than US Russia willl probably get benefitted. But this does not matter.

Khujli to Islamists is that US and West will help India grow further economically and will get a parmanent seat at the high table in UN. That is why the dry run of bombing in Bengaluru with SIMI's help by ISI.

We were visiting Delhi's Pragati Maidan Electronics Fair in 1978 during during Nirankari Vs. Akali (Bhindrenwale) show-down, I remember a poor haggard old faqir apparently for no reason shouting and weeping that there is going to be more bloodshed and India will suffer for coming 30 years, but there after India will rise to be the leader of the world. True India suffered so much in last 30 years. You know who is the culprit.

The deal may not solve energy problems but it cannot stop India's nuclear weapon build up for many obvious reasons. The biggest is west can not keep its technological lead and its aging population (in Europe the population is in fact decreasing).

Paki is already pure nuke nude!

Re: # 98

Ijaz sahib:

"...'where does pakistan's nuclear equation fall in all this? ..."

Pakistan's nuclear from my vantage must already be controlled by Americans. If America is ready to play eye-ball with Iran and got Libya out of its nuclear ambition, it is only a matter of time, when Pakistan and together with America will openly annouce the disposition of its nuclear program.

Pakistan hold world's largest Islamic Army, which is infiltrated by radical Islamists. It would be wrong to assume that such a standing Army can get away with the nuclear weapons. Rest of the world (outside Islamic countries) does not want Iran to have one that can threaten oil supply, it is very difficult to assume that largest standing Islamic army can have uncontrolled access to the triggers on nuclear weapons. You may know more who controls the trigger of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. I highly doubt CIA and America is not there to pre-empt any mischief.

In other words, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal has been rendered ineffective and will remain so.

I always believed that powerful institutions like ISI cannot survive without being under some kind of control of CIA or an American institution. America may be paying the price to ISI and Pakistani Generals to ensure control over nuclear program among other things.

I never believed that India or Pakistan can use their nuclear weapons and remain intact? Therefore, Indians have acted wisely and get this nuclear energy for economic growth. Several years ago I had met a venture capitalist in the Silicon Valley. He told me that he was actively involved in negotiations to offer American nuclear know how to India in 1950s. That's about the same time America, according to him was transferring this know-how to the U.K. According to him, the U.S. had estimated that India had enough experts to get nuclear program going without any help. America from that time onward had always believed India to be the buffer against communists - the last domino, or the first front. He also told me that Nehru rejected this offer, and formed Indian Atomic Energy Commission with Homi J. Bhabha as the head. This gentleman knew about the crash of Air India plane in the Alps, carrying top nuclear experts in early 60s. He implied a question to ponder how this could have happened? Obviously I thought that he was implying some hands in this crash that wiped out India's top nuclear scientists.

Therefore, according to me, if anyone thinks that Pakistanis can exercise independent control on its nuclear weapons is smoking somthing else. Especially now that Indian nuclear program is at least partially under international and the U.S. inspection. Nuclear screw on Pakistan will be tightened even more. It will eventually have to allow A.Q.Khan to be questioned by I.A.E.A if not by the CIA.

parthab

You are so right. Now, BJP has carried out bomb blasts in Ahmedabad. :(

The intelligence and investigation apparatus of the successive Congress governments is rotten to the core.

And yet, while the government has given 33000 crores to the feminists, they have hardly given a pittance to the investigations cell of the police!

As seen in the Aarushi murder case, the police are not fit solve a crime even with 'truth serum' forget about cases without eye witnesses!

Maybe the CBI would have liked to called this a 'blind blast'?

Why the low intensity blasts? Obviously to create communal tensions. Why now? Elections are nearing and the BJP suffered a blow in the house.

It is all falling into place. Remember Gujarat?

ijaz_gul:

I think that you are reading a bit too much into this. Yes, as I have said, India will pay a price in its independent dealings but the price may not be as high as you suggest. As has been pointed out by some posters, once more US corporate interests are tied to India, it will be difficult for the US to take action against India because of any policies it does not like, just as it finds it difficult to do anything about China following such policies now; this is a consequence of inter-dependence. Neither Russia nor China seems to think of this deal as against them and are likely to support it in the IAEA.

Pakistan does not seem to know how to react. On the one hand, it is saying that it is against this deal and, on the other, it wants a similar deal for itself. I suspect that the Americans are going to promise Pakistan that it too could get a similar deal when things stabilise and AK Khan episode is a distant memory.

Iran is a wild card. It is playing a high-stake game of "chicken" with Israel. Last week, it seemed that Israel had Bush's go-ahead to strike against Iran and this week it seems that the US is ready to engage Iran. Who knows what will be the story next week?

Brijesh Mishra has been on the record supporting this deal. Jaswant Singh either genuinely feels that the deal is not in India's interest or is just following the party line; I am not sure, which?

Ashley Tellis is of Indian origin and genuinely believes that this deal is the best thing for India, since Mughal Biryani.

And finally, since you are from Pindi, all I would say is "Hudsee tay rung kudsee".

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Re: # 90

Tahir,

Your post raises a few questions.

1) What do you mean by aloo-qeema and why that commodity would/could be used for any exchanges?

2) What/who is axe-man of NY?

3) What/who is a Q-cumber?

4) Do I understand it correct that you don't consider the Brailvis and Deobandis, or the "Raiwand people" as true Muslims?

5) Who is "Meiji baby"?

6) Please tell us how your post is relevant to the article being discussed?

Anil.
A very good response from your end with a very realistic view.
My question is, 'where does pakistan's nuclear equation fall in all this?

Ijaz sahib:

The economic view of this pact is written in the latest Business Week says that Russian and French will benefit more from the nuclear pact that gives a $30 billion dollar opportunity over the next ten years. I am certain American companies will get their fair share.

The political view, in my view, is that the nuclear companies probably provided all the cash that may have been used to complete cross-voting. In America similar act is called lobbying.

The geo-politically, neither India, nor the U.S. can afford to allow instability on Pakistan's western borders to move to its eastern borders. It will create instability in a huge market and resource pool that the world is now looking at. Therefore, external forces will not allow implosion, which does not help Russia and China with Muslim population either. If India can sustain 7% GDP until 2015, it would, with its close to trillion dollar economy, will be a different game for old hands in Pakistani establishment to maintain an aggressive posture with India.

As I see Pakistan will have powerful Iranian economy on one side of the border, and Indian economy on the other side of the border. Its peacetime role is very clear to me to provide trade hub. For this to happen, Pakistan must push the problem out its cities to FATA and confine it there with Afghanistan border. That is where the west will remain involved with radical Islam till it is tamed, or it wins over the world.

Regarding Iran, sooner or later Iran will understand that it risks a third world-war and get destroyed. Even if in unlikely outcome, it prevails in the world war, western economies, in this scenario, will be so damaged that it will not have market for its resources. Where would be its markets? Please do not forget that oil became important after the First World War, third such world war will end world's dependence on oil.

Therefore, according to me, Iran will come around and settle to a formula with the west on nuclear standoff and Israel. If this happens, Iran will be a force in the Middle East. It will allow the world to divide oil between Sunni oil and Shia oil and try to create competition in suppliers, just as Indian and Chinese demands is creating competition on the demand side.

As I see, it is Pakistani leadership's call to make its future. Americans have worked with almost communist Venezuela to get oil, as much as it has worked with theocratic Saudis. What the world cannot work with is the radical Islam, just as it did not work with Nazis.

India's future lies in not confronting China, but making it a trading partner and together create world's largest market that contains 40% of the world population. In this it will play three cards, China, Japan and EU/America. In the coming world I see India's collaboration with Islamic countries will be more on economic basis, than on anything else which may have played Islam's role. Pakistan has vestiges of that Indian past; three generations of Indian have moved a long way away from those delusions of grandeur.

As per latest reports, Munir Akram Pakistan's envoy to UN and who served Pakistan for a very long time as a worthy diplomat on issues on weapon conventions is being replaced with Haroon.
Is this a measure of things to come?

"IN THE fullness of time, last week's nuclear agreement between India and the United States will be seen as one of those decisive moments in international politics when two powers who have been courting each other for some time decide finally to cross the point of no return. The U.S. and India have `come out', so to speak, and the world will never be the same again."

IF this comment is taken on face value, India has joined the stronger in a uni polar/oligopolar world. This is a departure from its past policy and gives impetus to a matching alliance comprising China-Russia-Iran initially and MAYBE PAKISTAN SUBSEQUENTLY. The world will be divided between West and East.

Now how does this help India in controlling proliferation when its policies of smiling Buddha led Pakistan to become nuclear?

According to latest non proliferation reports, Pakistan also actively assisted N. Korea and Iran in development of theirs. N. Korea is already off the hook while Iran is in Sharp Focus. Rice offering negotiations to Iran has to be viewed in this context and unless (I reiterate) Iran is a farce, will resist. If it does not, then the only irritant that remains is Pakistan.

Hypothetically, Pakistan could be led to a irreversible stage of implosion in which case Indo US cooperation both on WOT and decapitation is most urgent.

Re: # 3
majumdar and dost,
Does that mean Indian politics has taken a departure for the worst because previously as far as core policy issues were concerned, major Indian parties always had consensus?
However, I differ on your response.

The Brijesh Misra and Jaswant Team had led the initial negotiations. They are also the ones who formulated the Indian Doctrine and Policy that remains unchanged. So could men of such high standing just oppose for the sake of it?
I would say No.

I would confirm what I have been saying all along. Its the strings to the main treaty in form of preambles etc that seriosly curtails India's political liberty. It makes India's independent decision making now subject to scrutinies by USA and perhaps also IAEA. India has now become an allied state and as Eklava said, at a point of no return. Unless the entire Iran issue is a farce, India stands to lose much more in the region than gain by becoming an indirect member of the nuclear club and gain parity against China.

Last, Ashley Tellis that Eklava mentins had been specially placed in Delhi to facilitate all this.