Government Wins Manmohan Singh Loses

Re: # 139
Izaj....
Pakistan will not get much of the US high tech stuff due the following reason...

1) Tech Transfer to China- the major worry for USA
2) Pakistan administration is vulnerable to be in the hands of Jihadis....

And these worries are not very uncalled for....

USA wants to learn lesson from Iran. During Shah's rule they have sold all the latest arms to Iran. And, when the Govt. changed, they were biting their nails....
Indians are not very much against USA. In any formation of Govt., either BJP or Congress have to be part of the govt. So, USA can trust India in terms of technology transfer. In fact, if India would have sided with USA, India would have seen booming industry in Nuke power equipments, the way India in progressing in space industry, may be 5/6 years later, India will launch US satellites and on behalf, India have to sponsor part of NASA programs....
Those who are talking about proliferation, they are quite stupid. The nuke deal is kind of way ( through hyde act and 123 agreement) they are binding India...

Re: # 138 You have point it is better to be late than never.

I feel PM has gone and their in usa and he is parroting "american line" we are fighing for pakistan. It is quick sand once you enter it sucks and finally kills stuck up animal.

Problem is PM is very intelligent man he understands all or better than all us. As they say a blind can be told of danger ahead but nonblind sees and jumps nothing can be done.
The die is already caste. Reckless things done will take time to get bitter fruits but they will.
I appreciate you put out neck and try to analyse and suggest. I like that, its better to tell what and why you think and speculate. Mistakes do happen who do any thing. Management position is always to try and if wrong correct worst thing is not to anything.
You have practical attitude. Please do not get sisturbed by some little person and his familar antics.
If time permits you can write about past air encounters/ airforce betwwen and Indian and pakistani. Hope fully as pavo puts different points you can put. He does not write about air battles or encounters. Or over long landscape of battle field air action never much affected outcomes as Pavo never mentions air activity.

For your service this little delightful bandish in Shuddha Kaylan. Enjoy and have good day.She recently performed same in Lahore I am told.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/52e39cd2-a416-4a0b-b4f0-d018998a671a/Ashwini-Bh ide-Deshpande-Raag-Shuddha-Kalyan.mp3

Re: # 115
Pak N-diplomacy comes to a full stop




Monday, July 28, 2008

By Shireen M Mazari

ISLAMABAD: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) has finally sprung into action to counter the Indian efforts to get a country-specific safeguards agreement from the IAEA and then move on to seeking similar concessions from the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG).

Pakistan has always supported a criteria-based principle for any exception to the nonproliferation norms to be made by the IAEA and the NSG. In this regard, Pakistan had already sent a letter to the IAEA Board of Governors (BoG), which will be taking up the Indian dictated IAEA draft in the coming days, asking for a vote in the BoG on this issue.

There were two reasons behind this move: One, to expose those member states that have been holding forth on nonproliferation but would go along with making an exception to India; and, two, to see how many of Pakistan’s Arab allies, who are presently members of the IAEA Board would vote. The US and India are seeking an agreement by consensus without putting the issue to vote.

In addition to a letter from Pakistan’s ambassador to Austria and the IAEA, as part of the MFA’s strategy on this issue, the foreign secretary also wanted to send a letter to the NSG states asking them to adopt a criteria-based approach for sensitive technology transfers rather than country-based exceptions.

The third leg of the MFA strategy was to send an envoy - preferably a seasoned diplomat - to our ally China to get them to lend support to the Pakistani approach vis-a-vis the IAEA and the NSG.

Unfortunately, as soon as the Pakistani letter was sent to the IAEA BoG, the US got moving and conveyed to Islamabad that Pakistan had already given a commitment, through a previous Foreign Secretary, that it will offer no opposition to the US pursuing India-specific exceptions at the IAEA and the NSG.

As a result the MFA was asked to stop all activities meant to counter India-US moves on safeguards and technology exports at the IAEA and the NSG respectively. The net result has been that all diplomatic efforts by Pakistan have come to a grinding halt and the special envoy’s mission had to be aborted midway.

This despite the fact that many Western IAEA and NSG members are firm adherents to the non-proliferation regime and are uncomfortable with the Indo-US nuclear deal - which is why the US and India do not want to put the safeguards agreement to vote in the IAEA BoG. Incidentally, the halting of the MFA’s diplomacy took place while the foreign secretary was in India for talks.

It is important to remember that Pakistan has been signing the normal non-NPT member states’ Safeguards Agreement with the IAEA, seeking no exit clauses or other exceptions. Interestingly, although the US has consistently and publicly stated that it will not sign a nuclear deal with Pakistan on similar lines to the Indo-US nuclear deal, Pakistan’s new de jure foreign minister has naively sought to declare, like his predecessors, that Pakistan will seek such a deal.

Some outsiders inducted in the Foreign service by the present government have been intervening in foreign policy decisions. At international moots, they check and rewrite all speeches prepared by the MFA. They allegedly informed the foreign secretary that the MAF should stop focusing on China as Pakistan’s major ally because now there was going to be a major reorientation towards the US and India. Perhaps that is why the prime minister has chosen to go to the US before visiting our ally in good times and bad, China. Could that also be the reason for negotiating with the Indian-owned Mittal for the exploitation of Thar coal rather than the Chinese companies with whom Pakistan had been negotiating for the last few years?
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16264

ahmedmadani #: "IS is Still time to with drew from WTO or now it is too late...."

it is a bit late now..... but better late than never.....all other countries have more or less withdrawn....there was one explosion in spain and it withdrew....britain is withdrawing....canada is seriously thinking of moving out of afghanistan.....none of the even closest nato allies of usa are willing to put in more than a few hundred to thousand troops.....

turkey was asked for logistics support for iraq, but it refused.....pakistan has done more than its part.....it needs to move out now......tell the usa to leave, and stop providing any more logistical support.....

after that if the usa wants to fight taliban in fata, let the two fight it out.....there isn't much pakistan can do to stop either....

as long as there is peace and quiet in the major cities of pakistan, quite a few entities from china to the middle east will invest heavy money.......and if pakistan improves business relations with india, indian companies will as well.....

the deeper pakistan gets into this violence, the more dangerous a place pakistan will become....america has the luxury of withdrawing back to its distant borders...pakistan does not.....

the longer this war is going on, the more powerful the taliban inside pakistan have become......there wasn't a single suicide bomb in pakistan, prior to 9/11.......and swat used to be a place where people had summer homes, prior to 9/11.......

one need not be a genius to figure out the impact of unstinted support given to usa after 9/11, in pakistan....

infact, prior to the first afghan war, in which pakistan was also a frontline ally of the usa, there were no drugs and klashnikovs in pakistan......

Most probably ISI is stealing from Unkil

The terror email which came just 4 minutes before ahmedabad blasts has been traced to an American-Indian. English media channels like CNN-IBN have censored his identity, as expected.

Neighbours say, they have seen european kids playing in the garden below regularly.

So called truth-seeker CNN-IBN has turned news to sports events.

Interesting thing is, if this guy were some normal Abdul, he would be grabbed by neck by now and dragged into police van in front of media. But, police team has not allowed media teams even in vicinity of the building where this raid is being gone.

In past, there was a report on Zee-news of american special-mission oritented fast reaction time pistols being recovered from Paki terrorists in J&K. But, that news report disappeared within 1 hour and wasn't repeated again on that day.

Nice cover-up of american connections(CIA) in terror blasts.

#134 peon sahib: do you mean "makhhichoos" but are too polite to say that and so say "makhanchoos", sir?

Re: # 133

they are all makhanchoos tahmeedi saab

#129 bulleya: "...i am not sure if it needs to align its goals with the interests of islam......it simply needs to avoid radical islam and not reach out to fight it; specifically in a manner where it ends up killing so many innocent muslims...unless it is, itself attcked first...."

hmmmmmm...you dont say!! I'll be damned!! This why our kakul graduates rule the world - they think such profound thoughts!!

#124 mkamd: "Natzi ( not 'Nazi') "

ahmedmadani: and all your life you have been saying 'Nazi'!! now, thanks to mr. mkamd, you know better.

Re: # 127 Romair I have agreement with you ,that america will declare victory and go home defeated.
What is your feeling moderate political people/ parties/army may not able to withstand general thrust towards settled areas. If usa stops help to army and with no support from people can Our Taliban come to I-Bad as Talibans went easily to Kabul ?
Or they will feel overstretched to do that will go for control of Peshavar but still leaving Pakistani govt with city so it will get supplies ?
The Roman Barbarians did similar things for rome they controlled access for many years before finally took over.Wonder will usa after defeat will just abandon pakistan or still the geocentric position of pakistan will demand full USA attention.
In coming problems will nationalist of B.Stan loose appeal due to fear of P.Taliban and get more cemented to country or they will take advantage to go away? Will usa like independent B.Stan so they can control gas and mineral wealth ?
Too difficult to imagine how things will go.
I think you were saying right for long time to disengage from WOT now army is unnecessarily got lumped with USA army. Problem with usa is they are putting less people in A.stan number of police in karachi. What some body said ( Ayubkhan) enimity with usa is bad but friendship with usa for junior partners is fetal. There quite truth in that.
Any way corroupt practices and sin ful ways and white washing for bhuttos for their money NRO , and people of pakistan have to pay through lives and disunity for american and bhutto elites greedy and unwise ways.
IS is Still time to with drew from WTO or now it is too late.

Good evening.

With unflinching idealism we propose joint ownership with India of Pakistani ISI before any CBM on Kashmir.

Ths will solve most of the problems in the subcontinent.

eklavya #: "The only option for the US, too, is to align its own goals and interests with the goals and intersts of Islam. "

...i am not sure if it needs to align its goals with the interests of islam......it simply needs to avoid radical islam and not reach out to fight it; specifically in a manner where it ends up killing so many innocent muslims...unless it is, itself attcked first....

...this is where the usa overstreched itself.....when 9/11 happened, it should have first concentrated on obl....the taliban were ready to hand him over to a muslim country, if the usa provided public proof.....the usa refused, citing security of its intelligence resources, after which the whole next six years of violence started, which has, had huge negative impacts on the region....

...at that time, the usa should have made its evidence public, called the taliban's bluff and taken obl.....after which it should have stopped supporting the taliban (along with pakistan and saudi arabia, the two other countries that supported them), and should have meticulously dismantled the taliban regime, through money, development and some force if needed......

.......it should have, then, along with the rest of the world invested hugely in development in afghanistan.....with a fraction of the money it put into the iraq war......

and it should not have entered iraq.......or started GWOT...there was actually no GWOT needed.....al-qaeda was a small organization based in afghanistan, which carried out small attacks here and there.....it didn't even claim the 9/11 attacks till three years or so afterwards, and still has been unable to explain how it carried them out from the remote hills of afghnistan.....

...i think there were various other more powerful entities waging this war against the usa, from other parts of the middle east....none of whom advertise themselves.....

however, by starting this GWOT, the usa has now placed itself in a situation where al-qaeda has become an ideology, and the usa is now stuck in a GWOT....

-- i, thus, find it hugely ironic that americans are now arguing that they should back out of iraq, so that the GWOT can be limited to afghanistan........

it was limited to afghanistan to begin with.....the usa, itself made it a GWOT, by taking it to other areas.......now it wants to bring it back to afghnistan!!.....

...some of us had suggested that the usa should keep the war in afghnistan, years ago....the same people who are pushing the ideas of briging it back to afghanistan disagreed with us back then......

i think it maybe a bit too late now for the us to confine this genie back to afghnistan......the usa spread it, all over the place, itself......it has tasted power......and the best thing to do is to just avoid it, as much as possible......

#127 Posted by bulleya on July 27, 2008 12:35:28 am


1. my prediction had been that the usa would be defeated in iraq


And people wonder why you're sitting on a huge stack of t-shirts with paki flags...you actually believe your own BS...

US now winning Iraq war that once seemed lost

* Combat phase ends, new phase focuses on training Iraqi army and police
* Top US commander in Iraq sees early indications Al Qaeda shifting focus to Afghanistan

BAGHDAD: The United States is now winning the war that two years ago seemed lost.

Limited, sometimes sharp fighting and periodic terrorist bombings in Iraq are likely to continue, possibly for years. But the Iraqi government and the US now are able to shift focus from combat to building the fragile beginnings of peace.

Despite the occasional bursts of violence, Iraq has reached the point where the insurgents, who once controlled whole cities, no longer have the clout to threaten the viability of the central government.

Focus: That does not mean the war has ended. It means the combat phase finally is ending, years past the time when President George W Bush optimistically declared it had. The new phase focuses on training the Iraqi army and police, restraining the flow of illicit weaponry from Iran, supporting closer links between Baghdad and local governments, pushing the integration of former insurgents into legitimate government jobs and assisting in rebuilding the economy.

Scattered battles go on, especially against Al Qaeda holdouts north of Baghdad. But organised resistance, with the steady drumbeat of bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and ambushes that once rocked the capital daily, has all but ceased.

It reflects a fundamental shift in the outlook for the Sunni minority, which held power under Saddam Hussein. They launched the insurgency five years ago. They now are either sidelined or have switched sides to co-operate with the Americans in return for money and political support.

Al Qaeda: Gen David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, told The Associated Press this past week there are early indications that senior leaders of Al Qaeda may be considering shifting their main focus from Iraq to the war in Afghanistan.

Ryan Crocker, the US ambassador to Iraq, told the AP on Thursday that the insurgency as a whole has withered to the point where it is no longer a threat to Iraq’s future.

Militias, notably the Mahdi Army of radical cleric Muqtada Al Sadr, have lost their power bases in Baghdad, Basra and other major cities. An important step was the routing of Shia extremists in the Sadr City slums of eastern Baghdad this spring.

Al Sadr and top lieutenants are now in Iran. Still talking of a comeback, they are facing major obstacles, including a loss of support among a Shia population weary of war and no longer as terrified of Sunni extremists as they were two years ago.

Maj Gen Ali Hadi Hussein al-Yaseri, the chief of patrol police in the capital, says, “Even eight months ago, Baghdad was not today’s Baghdad.� ap

anil #: "Instead I am saying that radical Islam (by that I mean OBL types) would be confined and fought in FATA and Afghanistan border. This will continue until either side wins or looses."

...this seems to be the new buzz line in us politics...i have yet to figure out on what this is based....

...the usa is about to retreat from iraq.....retreat, as in being defeated outrightly in iraq by radical islam and/or nationalistic forces (depending on how you want to look at it)....

...it is, now, also being defeated in afghanistan.....once again, by radical islam and/or nationalistic forces....

...please explain how it will be able to limit radical islam to afghanistan......what is going to happen in iraq, once the usa withdraws?........is it simply going to calm down......and turn into a first world dmeocracy......

1. my prediction had been that the usa would be defeated in iraq, after which it would withdraw and iraq would turn into an afghanistan with oil......if radical islam has won in iraq what makes you think it will, simply, pack up from there, once the usa leaves....

...wouldn't it make more sense for radical islam to use iraq as a base to make further inroads into the middle east, instead of packing up from there, after winning.....

2. what will happen to the usa, once it beefs up in afghanistan.....will the same military, which lost in iraq, demoralized and defeated have more successes in afghanistan than it did in iraq......keep in mind that afghanistan is a far far more difficult terrain to fight in.....and afghanis (radical islam or otherwise), unlike iraqis, have a very long history of fighting invaders....

in addition, usa had clear supply lines to afghanistan from qatar.......if it beefs up in afghanistan, it will have to radically increase its supply routes through pakistan, which will not be accepted by pakistanis and may destablize pakistan further......

3. in terms of political islam (radical or otherwise), it is rising by the day.....the biggest and perhaps only beneficiary of usa policies has actually been iran......it has a potentially client govt. in iraq and a close ally in afghanistan.....it is no longer afraid of usa threats to its nuclear policies.......and it has a client hezbollah fighting the israel......

.....radical and political islam are both on the rise at the moment.....and i am quite convinced these are unnatural political phenomenons, which are rising due to the counterproductive actions of the usa.......the more the usa bombs places, the stronger these two ideas become.......

.......as stated earlier, the usa needs to rethink its policies......either it would need to get out of foreign escapades and ensure, like europe, that internally its domestic society remains protected from radical islam....

the best policy, however, would be to revamp its support of middle east clients and solve the israel/palestine issue in a fair way, and most of all, to stop killing the hundreds of thousands of muslims that it kills there in the form of state terrorism......

if it does the later, i think radical (and political) islam will die a natural death.....

p.s. i don't foresee two many successes for the usa in afghanistan, if it increases troop levels there.....it will be a much tougher fight than in iraq.......

India’s N-deal with US


By Tariq Osman Hyder

THE US-India agreement for cooperation in civil nuclear energy is the high-water mark of the US-India strategic partnership.

Only a few isolated voices in the international arms control community, particularly in America and India, have voiced concerns. George Perkovich of the Carnegie Endowment perceptively noted inter alia two US objectives: that a more powerful India would balance China’s growing power and influence in Asia, and that changing national and international laws on nuclear cooperation would also help bolster India’s strategic capabilities, including nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, which will further balance China’s strategic power.

India would get access to nuclear fuel, technology and reactors for its ambitious nuclear power development programme which was already facing problems due to limited uranium reserves. The chairman of India’s Atomic Energy Agency, Anil Kakodkar, stated on July 4 that India’s long-term energy security faces a huge gap if India is unable to import nuclear reactors or nuclear fuel under international cooperation. Alternatively it would be required to import 1.6bn tonnes of coal in the year 2050 alone.

The opportunity was missed to introduce a criteria-based non-discriminatory system which would have brought both India and Pakistan fully into the global non-proliferation regime and given both fossil-fuel deficit countries access to civil nuclear energy under IAEA safeguards, while encouraging strategic restraint in South Asia and furthering global non-proliferation objectives. India should have been asked to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. While India has pledged to work towards a fissile material cut-off treaty, the agreement enhances rather than restrains its fissile production capabilities.

Of India’s 22 power reactors, six of which are already safeguarded, only an additional eight will be placed under safeguards, not immediately but progressively up to 2014. If run for that purpose, the eight un-safeguarded reactors can comfortably produce 1,400 kg of weapons-grade plutonium a year, which is sufficient for around 280 nuclear weapons. As all safeguarded reactors would have access to imported fuel there is no economic rationale for excluding these reactors.

Even when run for power generation alone, the un-safeguarded reactors would provide reactor-grade plutonium, in lesser quantities, which could be used for nuclear weapons and for India’s ambitious breeder reactor programme which has also been kept outside safeguards. The first Indian breeder reactor would be able to produce 135 kg of weapons-grade plutonium every year. Four larger breeders are planned which eventually could produce some 500-800 kg of weapons-grade plutonium a year. In comparison, the annual production of India’s existing military reactors is estimated at 33 kg.The Indian separation plan presented to its parliament on May 11, 2006 states that India would include in the civilian list of facilities under safeguards only those determined not to be relevant to its strategic programme. Hence the agreement, while fulfilling India’s energy requirements, frees its limited 60,000 tons of uranium reserves for its strategic programme and objectives, an outcome lauded by India’s leading strategist K. Subrahmanyam. The US justification that the agreement is placing additional Indian reactors under safeguards amounts to scraping the bottom of the non-proliferation barrel.

India is moving fast towards a nuclear submarine-based second-strike capability, as well as an ICBM capability which will require plutonium for missile warheads. Bharat Karnad, professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi, is of the opinion that India’s new ‘cold start’ doctrine will give it the ability to wage limited war against Pakistan, secure in the fact that its growing strategic capabilities will neutralise Pakistan’s deterrence. The fact is that strategic stability is under threat and an unnecessary arms race may result.

While the agreement is between the United States and India, a draft umbrella safeguards agreement between the IAEA and India will be examined, as per requirements, by the IAEA’s board of governors at the end of July. It remains to be seen how far it will accord with global non-proliferation objectives. This also holds true for subsequent discussion in the Nuclear Suppliers Group. Now is the time for the board of governors and then the NSG to use their leverage to get it right. If the board of governors succumbs to pressure, as is likely, even more responsibility devolves on the Nuclear Suppliers Group, which was set up to prevent or at least restrict proliferation. If it is to retain any credibility, the group must do the right thing.

The IAEA has different models of safeguards agreements. Almost all are based on facility-specific agreements, which apply safeguards in perpetuity and extend safeguards on the material produced. There are no conditionalities. The five permanent members of the Security Council have voluntary offer agreements, placing certain facilities under safeguards, which they can withdraw at any time for reasons of national security.

The draft India-IAEA agreement is a hybrid of the two models. India retains the right to take unspecified corrective measures to ensure uninterrupted operation of its civilian nuclear reactors in the event of a disruption in foreign fuel supplies. A high-level Indian team briefing the board members in Vienna recently was unable to clarify what this meant. The agreement would also subsume existing and stricter safeguards agreements on Indian reactors. Moreover, the accord with the US has been brought into the preamble of the draft India-IAEA agreement. Since military nuclear facilities and programmes are mentioned in the former, it is clear that India seeks legitimisation to further its military programme.

India’s concurrence to safeguards is dependent on continuous access to fuel supplies as well as a strategic reserve of fuel over the lifetime of India’s reactors. There is no mention of moving towards an additional protocol with the IAEA, which is another requirement of the agreement with the United States. No list of facilities has been listed, although the separation plan is a public document. There is no safeguard against the transfer or replication of imported nuclear technology to the benefit of the military. In effect the draft agreement is a blank cheque. It should be brought in line with the unconditional permanent safeguards model, with no room for interpretive ambiguity.

The objective of the international community should be to link support for India’s legitimate energy needs with extending safeguards to all its power generation and breeder reactors, leaving a limited military capacity, and to use it as a model for other non-NPT states. To do otherwise would be a grave disservice to non-proliferation objectives, and to regional and international peace and security.

The writer, a former diplomat, headed Pakistan delegations in nuclear CBMs talks with India from 2004 to 2007.

Re: # 120

'The west can work with theocratic Saudi and almost communist Venzuela. The rest of the world, not just America, will not work with radical Islam, just as it did not work with Nazis.'

Argument: Comparison of IJ and Natzi ( not 'Nazi') is comparing apple's with Oranges. Natzi were striving to take over whole europe while in Afghanistan IJ claims that they are trying to free their country from Foreigners, just like they did with Russians.

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eklavya bhai #118: why are you treating romair as if he is an utter fool? a nincompoop of gargantuan proportions? why??

bulleya: " the west has, now, climbed so high on the pole of prosperity that they have far too much to lose in this war"

muqarrar!! Shakespeare himself could not have coined such a stratrospheric phrase...a javelin of Olympian heights flung towards the sun by a man of herculean literary strength...the har-fan-maulaa field marshall romair himself!!

Now that Romair has come out with his forcast for defeat of USA, keeping in mind his past record, my money is on USA.

Re: # 111

Kaal:

"...they call radical Islam) has been licked in Iraq, Afghanistan...."

No Kaal that is not my position. Instead I am saying that radical Islam (by that I mean OBL types) would be confined and fought in FATA and Afghanistan border. This will continue until either side wins or looses.

The west can work with theocratic Saudi and almost communist Venzuela. The rest of the world, not just America, will not work with radical Islam, just as it did not work with Nazis.

Eklavya#118:

"The other option is for Americans, and all others, to change their whole approach to the struggle."

Could you please elaborate what this approach should be? And please use uncoded language that everyone can understand.

romair, I agree with you. Europe has already changed (or seems about to). The only option for the US, too, is to align its own goals and interests with the goals and intersts of Islam.

Some would call that as little else than surrender to Islam before Islam/Muslims take over fully. But that is merely an interpretive nicety, and one can choose to call that situation anything one likes.

The other option is for Americans, and all others, to change their whole approach to the struggle. That they cannot do. They will keep thinking that by bombing this place or that, or by making money they will solve all problems.

http://audio.theuniversalwisdom.org/hindu_religion_swami_aksharananda.mp3

Eklayva #: "They will keep doing so until one side is totally destroyed."

yes.....this is where it is headed.....however, i don't think any side will be totally destroyed.....both sides are too big to be totally destroyed......

....the battle is not between islamic countries and the west.....it is between the usa/israel and a certain minority % of people in islamic countries, who are now, radicalized to the point of militarily taking on the usa, against all odds....

.....i am quite convinced that europe and canada and the rest of the west, now, just want to be out of this war.....the us supporting conservative groups tried very hard to get canada into the iraq war, but it did not go....wisely......

....the rest of the west has assessed the situation correctly.....they know it is impossible to fight someone who is willing to kill himself.....

more importantly, the west has, now, climbed so high on the pole of prosperity that they have far too much to lose in this war.....while those involved in radical islam have nothing much to lose (or so it seems).....

the usa is getting stuck deeper and deeper in this, and is slowly, being left alone by all its allies....

....the usa just had a disaster in iraq, fighting against a country, which for the past so many decades to centuries has a history of being defeated in battle.......how in the world is it going to fight in afghanistan - a land which is known for only two things: pomegranates and defeating superpowers......

obama is going to have his hands full if he thinks he can, simply, relocate troops who failed in iraq into a far more difficult terrain and environment of afghanistan (or fata for that matter).....

the problem with american strategists is that they only look at last word in the phrase, "radical islam".....when in fact they should look at the first word, i.e. radical.....these are radicalized individuals due to political reasons, who are using islam as a vehicle to excercise their radicalism.......not the other way around.....

either the usa can defeat this militarily (which it has not been able to do) or it requires a complete rethink of policy (which it is unwilling to do, or cannot do due to the strong control of the pro-israeli lobby on its middle east foreign policy)......

the best thing for any country - including pakistan - to do in this war between radical islam and usa is to stay out of it......the only reason pakistan got radicalized in the first place, was because it became a front-line state in a usa led war in 1979......it should stop making the same mistake again.....

Re: # 104
Anil,
If your point it accepted then Hawks like Munir Akram and Shirin Mazari are Adiue.

"You agitated our sentiments and disturbed us by arresting, imprisoning, and torturing our brothers in the name of SIMI (Students Islamic Movement of India) and the other outfits in Indore, Ujjain, Mumbai, and in other cities of Karnataka.

"We hereby notify you, especially the ATS and the STF and the governments of Madhya Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh, to release them all, lest you become our next targets and victims of our next attack," the email read.

The mail hits out at Maharasthra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh and Deputy Chief Minister R.R. Patil for his alleged torture of Muslim communities.

"To the Maharashtra government and Vilasrao Deshmukh and R.R. Patil, we announce the deadline to take heed before it is too late. Don't think we are unaware of the SRPF (state reserve police force) attacks on our Masjids and our homes…" the mail said.

India's richest man, Mukesh Ambani, is on top of the hit list of the terrorist outfit.

"We also alert Mukesh Ambani to think twice before usurping and building a citadel on a land in Mumbai that belongs to the Waqf Board, lest it turns into horrifying memories for you which you will never ever forget," Indian Mujahideen warned.

The terrorist group also called upon the Andhra Pradesh government, specifically the Hyderabad police, to "release the imprisoned Muslim youth immediately".

The terrorist outfit termed the serial blasts a revenge for the 2002 Gujarat riots in which over a 1,000 people, especially from the minority community, were killed.

"In the light of the injustice and wrongs on the Muslims of Gujarat, we advance our Jihad and call all our bretheren under it to unite and answer these irresolute kafireen of India," the email said.

Using harsh language, the mail termed Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi a "spineless coward" and called Muslims to fight against Hindu groups like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS)

Referring to the Gujjar agitation, the mail said: "If a petty population of Rajasthani Gujjars can use force for fulfilling their needs, then are we even more subjugated than these backwards?"

India has once again been attacked. This time the target was Bengaluru and Ahmedabad. The ease with which these attacks are being conducted only gives rise to one question -- Is terrorism becoming as common as a case of theft?

Looking at the numerous incidents of terror across the country, one could come to the conclusion that it's slowly becoming a part of our life.

Political parties have been using terrorism as a weapon to get back at opponents. While the mudslinging continues, fact remains that almost all incidents of terror, which have taken place across the country in the last year, remain unsolved.

(Click the icons for investigation status)

The Shahid Bilal Angle
The HuJI operative has figured in at least 5 of the 8 cases. Cops in all the terror-hit states feel that Bilal -- who originally hails from Hyderabad -- will be the key person to divulge correct details regarding all these attacks.

However, while Pakistan claims he is dead, Indian intelligence says this is not true. Now, the Hyderabad police commissioner has confirmed that the HujI operative is dead. The officer is, however, basing his statements on the information received by the family. For the record -- the family has been maintaining since the past five months that Bilal was dead. The fact remains Bilal's name seems to crop up only when an act of terror is committed in this country.

Re: # 111 Aik Love Ya
"They will keep doing so until one side is totally destroyed. I don't see it will be Islam."

Yaar, taray muNh maiN ghee shakkar, yaar!

romair # 109, a good post.

But in a real sense, both sides are wasting their time on such discussions. Non-Muslims, all, including anil ji, are convinced that Islam (what they call radical Islam) has been licked in Iraq, Afghanistan, and is on its way to being tamed in Europe.

Nothing that each side can say to other will change minds. They will keep playing completely different games, fighting totally different wars, in completely different ways. The West is using tanks and bombs against armies and 'extremists' and pushing 'individualism' and its own idea of 'democracy.'

They will keep doing so until one side is totally destroyed.

I don't see it will be Islam.

Re: # 109 Bull-Eye

A good primer for those who pretend they don't know! If only the Amrikans could fill in the blanks you left.

For now, they're headed the way of the Roman empire: bleeding slowly but surely.

anil #: "That is where the west will remain involved with radical Islam till it is tamed, or it wins over the world."

...one of the biggest misconceptions i have noticed amongst americans is to equate themselves with the, "west"...the west and the usa are slowly turning into two different entities....not in domestic policies, but certainly in foreign policy.....hence the usa and west cannot be viewed as one any longer...

...i don't think radical islam can rule the world, and i don't think the usa can get rid of it either....it is definitely on the rise, however, and everything the usa has done has not been able to control this rise.....in fact, it may well have result in assisting the rise, inadvertently....

....the usa needs a complete rethink on its foreign policy.....ten years ago, the usa was viewed as a powerful singular superpower......today it is defeated everywhere....surely its planning hasn't worked....

.....radical islam on the other hand is about to claim two victories against the west - iraq and afghanistan (even if we consider these to be nationalistic wars of liberation, radical islam will claim them as its own)....

....in addition, islamist parties are winning everywhere from turkey to lebanon.....keep in mind that turkey and lebanon are, easily, the two most westernised muslim countries in the world.......

.....the rest of the west, contrary to what you are saying, seems to have absolutely no interest in fighting radical islam.....they are doing their best to simply stay away from it......the usa is getting very little cooperation from western allies in its military escapades......almost none....the european view seems to be to not take on radical islam, but to keep it outside its borders, as much as possible, without antagonizing the radical islamists in foreign lands.....

.....pakistan is also slowly and wisely realizing that negotiations are the best way to deal with people who have no problems in blowing themselves up, i.e. let them stay in fata.....if you fight them, they will end up in islamabad.....

.....the usa is set on leaving iraq and accepting defeat.....the reasoning it is presenting is that it will use those troops to fight the real war against radical islam, i.e. in afghanistan.....

.......i am afraid this will not work....the usa is going to get totally bogged down in afghanistan also, and will face far higher casualities in afghnaistan than it did in iraq, if its troop levels reach the same as that in iraq.....

and currently, other than pakistan, no other allied country is willing to commit more than a few thousand (if that) troops in afghanistan.......

......when the iraq war started, i had repeatedly stated on this site that the usa would lose.....trust me if the usa makes a full-fledged thrust into afghnanistan, its loss there, will make iraq look like a coffee party....

......in addition, the usa wants to go into fata......it will get bogged down there also......pakistani troops know the region, but got bogged down with 70k + troops.....how in the world will the usa fight there......i have visited that region a bit.......trust me those guys will beat the living daylights out of us troops.......the only thing usa will be able to do is aerial bombing, which will, simply, kill civilians......

i have always said, if the usa wants to invade fata, pakistan should let it do so, without supporting either side.......

on top of it, the usa is thinking of attacking iran!.....iran is three times the size of iraq, with a standing military and a much more homogeneous population, supported by a democracy.......they will bomb the strait of hormuz, and will target the remaining us soldiers in iraq....another war the usa will lose.......

........at the moment, it is radical islam 2 - usa 0......with the odds moving in favor of radical islam, even more.......

......i have seen hardly any intelligent discourse in the usa on how to handle radical islam......which is why the usa is losing, despite throwing everything, including the kitchen sink at radical islam......

.....the usa, in my opinion, has two choices......(the third choice of military defeating radical islam having hugely failed)...... a) it can do what europe is doing and simply avoid radical islam and secure itself internally to ensure no 9/11 occurs again.....b) revamp its complete foreign policy, regarding supporting dictatorships in the middle east, review its policies in israel/palestine etc....despite its support of dictatorships, oil still shot up beyond $140/barrell........

(europe has one huge advantage over the usa....there is no group in europe that can, overly, influence its foreign policy........in case of usa, i think the pro-israeli lobby has overwhelming influence, when it comes to what america does in the middle east, and due to this, i doubt the usa will be able to give up its previous policies......these are actually favoring the rise of radical islam)....

Vinash Kale Viparit Buddhi!

The time has come to reserve all property, jobs, govt contracts, education facility to Dharmic people just as they do it in Kashmir valley for Islamists. India needs to abandon democracy and secularism for five years and follow China in every respect.

Re: # 102

parthab,

A "blind" case is a case where there are no eye witnesses!!

This Jehadic blast was done in full view of hundred of hindu idolator witnessess.

Unless you also like most of the Islamists do not consider the testimony of idolators as per the Shariah Law!!

It would be "blind" only for blind dhimmis like you!

Re: # 103

Kaale Khan,

"..17 serial blasts ripped across the city on Sunday leaving 15 killed and 30 injured sending a wave of panic...."

You are obviously mouthing the Islamists propaganda.

I am sure idolators like me would be happy to see you and your family at place where those innocent people were killed in Jehad by the momeens.........

Why Islamists are compalining and saying India is now a client state?

India is the third largest economy. More than US Russia willl probably get benefitted. But this does not matter.

Khujli to Islamists is that US and West will help India grow further economically and will get a parmanent seat at the high table in UN. That is why the dry run of bombing in Bengaluru with SIMI's help by ISI.

We were visiting Delhi's Pragati Maidan Electronics Fair in 1978 during during Nirankari Vs. Akali (Bhindrenwale) show-down, I remember a poor haggard old faqir apparently for no reason shouting and weeping that there is going to be more bloodshed and India will suffer for coming 30 years, but there after India will rise to be the leader of the world. True India suffered so much in last 30 years. You know who is the culprit.

The deal may not solve energy problems but it cannot stop India's nuclear weapon build up for many obvious reasons. The biggest is west can not keep its technological lead and its aging population (in Europe the population is in fact decreasing).

Paki is already pure nuke nude!

Re: # 98

Ijaz sahib:

"...'where does pakistan's nuclear equation fall in all this? ..."

Pakistan's nuclear from my vantage must already be controlled by Americans. If America is ready to play eye-ball with Iran and got Libya out of its nuclear ambition, it is only a matter of time, when Pakistan and together with America will openly annouce the disposition of its nuclear program.

Pakistan hold world's largest Islamic Army, which is infiltrated by radical Islamists. It would be wrong to assume that such a standing Army can get away with the nuclear weapons. Rest of the world (outside Islamic countries) does not want Iran to have one that can threaten oil supply, it is very difficult to assume that largest standing Islamic army can have uncontrolled access to the triggers on nuclear weapons. You may know more who controls the trigger of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. I highly doubt CIA and America is not there to pre-empt any mischief.

In other words, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal has been rendered ineffective and will remain so.

I always believed that powerful institutions like ISI cannot survive without being under some kind of control of CIA or an American institution. America may be paying the price to ISI and Pakistani Generals to ensure control over nuclear program among other things.

I never believed that India or Pakistan can use their nuclear weapons and remain intact? Therefore, Indians have acted wisely and get this nuclear energy for economic growth. Several years ago I had met a venture capitalist in the Silicon Valley. He told me that he was actively involved in negotiations to offer American nuclear know how to India in 1950s. That's about the same time America, according to him was transferring this know-how to the U.K. According to him, the U.S. had estimated that India had enough experts to get nuclear program going without any help. America from that time onward had always believed India to be the buffer against communists - the last domino, or the first front. He also told me that Nehru rejected this offer, and formed Indian Atomic Energy Commission with Homi J. Bhabha as the head. This gentleman knew about the crash of Air India plane in the Alps, carrying top nuclear experts in early 60s. He implied a question to ponder how this could have happened? Obviously I thought that he was implying some hands in this crash that wiped out India's top nuclear scientists.

Therefore, according to me, if anyone thinks that Pakistanis can exercise independent control on its nuclear weapons is smoking somthing else. Especially now that Indian nuclear program is at least partially under international and the U.S. inspection. Nuclear screw on Pakistan will be tightened even more. It will eventually have to allow A.Q.Khan to be questioned by I.A.E.A if not by the CIA.

parthab

You are so right. Now, BJP has carried out bomb blasts in Ahmedabad. :(

The intelligence and investigation apparatus of the successive Congress governments is rotten to the core.

And yet, while the government has given 33000 crores to the feminists, they have hardly given a pittance to the investigations cell of the police!

As seen in the Aarushi murder case, the police are not fit solve a crime even with 'truth serum' forget about cases without eye witnesses!

Maybe the CBI would have liked to called this a 'blind blast'?

Why the low intensity blasts? Obviously to create communal tensions. Why now? Elections are nearing and the BJP suffered a blow in the house.

It is all falling into place. Remember Gujarat?

ijaz_gul:

I think that you are reading a bit too much into this. Yes, as I have said, India will pay a price in its independent dealings but the price may not be as high as you suggest. As has been pointed out by some posters, once more US corporate interests are tied to India, it will be difficult for the US to take action against India because of any policies it does not like, just as it finds it difficult to do anything about China following such policies now; this is a consequence of inter-dependence. Neither Russia nor China seems to think of this deal as against them and are likely to support it in the IAEA.

Pakistan does not seem to know how to react. On the one hand, it is saying that it is against this deal and, on the other, it wants a similar deal for itself. I suspect that the Americans are going to promise Pakistan that it too could get a similar deal when things stabilise and AK Khan episode is a distant memory.

Iran is a wild card. It is playing a high-stake game of "chicken" with Israel. Last week, it seemed that Israel had Bush's go-ahead to strike against Iran and this week it seems that the US is ready to engage Iran. Who knows what will be the story next week?

Brijesh Mishra has been on the record supporting this deal. Jaswant Singh either genuinely feels that the deal is not in India's interest or is just following the party line; I am not sure, which?

Ashley Tellis is of Indian origin and genuinely believes that this deal is the best thing for India, since Mughal Biryani.

And finally, since you are from Pindi, all I would say is "Hudsee tay rung kudsee".

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Re: # 90

Tahir,

Your post raises a few questions.

1) What do you mean by aloo-qeema and why that commodity would/could be used for any exchanges?

2) What/who is axe-man of NY?

3) What/who is a Q-cumber?

4) Do I understand it correct that you don't consider the Brailvis and Deobandis, or the "Raiwand people" as true Muslims?

5) Who is "Meiji baby"?

6) Please tell us how your post is relevant to the article being discussed?

Anil.
A very good response from your end with a very realistic view.
My question is, 'where does pakistan's nuclear equation fall in all this?

Ijaz sahib:

The economic view of this pact is written in the latest Business Week says that Russian and French will benefit more from the nuclear pact that gives a $30 billion dollar opportunity over the next ten years. I am certain American companies will get their fair share.

The political view, in my view, is that the nuclear companies probably provided all the cash that may have been used to complete cross-voting. In America similar act is called lobbying.

The geo-politically, neither India, nor the U.S. can afford to allow instability on Pakistan's western borders to move to its eastern borders. It will create instability in a huge market and resource pool that the world is now looking at. Therefore, external forces will not allow implosion, which does not help Russia and China with Muslim population either. If India can sustain 7% GDP until 2015, it would, with its close to trillion dollar economy, will be a different game for old hands in Pakistani establishment to maintain an aggressive posture with India.

As I see Pakistan will have powerful Iranian economy on one side of the border, and Indian economy on the other side of the border. Its peacetime role is very clear to me to provide trade hub. For this to happen, Pakistan must push the problem out its cities to FATA and confine it there with Afghanistan border. That is where the west will remain involved with radical Islam till it is tamed, or it wins over the world.

Regarding Iran, sooner or later Iran will understand that it risks a third world-war and get destroyed. Even if in unlikely outcome, it prevails in the world war, western economies, in this scenario, will be so damaged that it will not have market for its resources. Where would be its markets? Please do not forget that oil became important after the First World War, third such world war will end world's dependence on oil.

Therefore, according to me, Iran will come around and settle to a formula with the west on nuclear standoff and Israel. If this happens, Iran will be a force in the Middle East. It will allow the world to divide oil between Sunni oil and Shia oil and try to create competition in suppliers, just as Indian and Chinese demands is creating competition on the demand side.

As I see, it is Pakistani leadership's call to make its future. Americans have worked with almost communist Venezuela to get oil, as much as it has worked with theocratic Saudis. What the world cannot work with is the radical Islam, just as it did not work with Nazis.

India's future lies in not confronting China, but making it a trading partner and together create world's largest market that contains 40% of the world population. In this it will play three cards, China, Japan and EU/America. In the coming world I see India's collaboration with Islamic countries will be more on economic basis, than on anything else which may have played Islam's role. Pakistan has vestiges of that Indian past; three generations of Indian have moved a long way away from those delusions of grandeur.

As per latest reports, Munir Akram Pakistan's envoy to UN and who served Pakistan for a very long time as a worthy diplomat on issues on weapon conventions is being replaced with Haroon.
Is this a measure of things to come?

"IN THE fullness of time, last week's nuclear agreement between India and the United States will be seen as one of those decisive moments in international politics when two powers who have been courting each other for some time decide finally to cross the point of no return. The U.S. and India have `come out', so to speak, and the world will never be the same again."

IF this comment is taken on face value, India has joined the stronger in a uni polar/oligopolar world. This is a departure from its past policy and gives impetus to a matching alliance comprising China-Russia-Iran initially and MAYBE PAKISTAN SUBSEQUENTLY. The world will be divided between West and East.

Now how does this help India in controlling proliferation when its policies of smiling Buddha led Pakistan to become nuclear?

According to latest non proliferation reports, Pakistan also actively assisted N. Korea and Iran in development of theirs. N. Korea is already off the hook while Iran is in Sharp Focus. Rice offering negotiations to Iran has to be viewed in this context and unless (I reiterate) Iran is a farce, will resist. If it does not, then the only irritant that remains is Pakistan.

Hypothetically, Pakistan could be led to a irreversible stage of implosion in which case Indo US cooperation both on WOT and decapitation is most urgent.

Re: # 3
majumdar and dost,
Does that mean Indian politics has taken a departure for the worst because previously as far as core policy issues were concerned, major Indian parties always had consensus?
However, I differ on your response.

The Brijesh Misra and Jaswant Team had led the initial negotiations. They are also the ones who formulated the Indian Doctrine and Policy that remains unchanged. So could men of such high standing just oppose for the sake of it?
I would say No.

I would confirm what I have been saying all along. Its the strings to the main treaty in form of preambles etc that seriosly curtails India's political liberty. It makes India's independent decision making now subject to scrutinies by USA and perhaps also IAEA. India has now become an allied state and as Eklava said, at a point of no return. Unless the entire Iran issue is a farce, India stands to lose much more in the region than gain by becoming an indirect member of the nuclear club and gain parity against China.

Last, Ashley Tellis that Eklava mentins had been specially placed in Delhi to facilitate all this.

Both Left and congress better be divorced.
Now Govt can do things which it was not doing ( economic changes etc and major policies not carried out due to left). There is more than sufficient time to these things. Which will be good for indian people as they can see themselves which things give results and they can pick up party on basis of performance than slogans.
Also Rahul Gandhi is old enough and will get chance to lead India if so then congress party will get second pole to coagualte around second gandhi. Mrs gandhi will be slowly getting old and if problems of succession are are solved can give stability and courage to regional satraps and inspire them , Gandhis are like flag ( like bhuttos). and people gather around to protect and party will flousrish. Now its up to Rahul generation to carry on legacy and hopefully produce a child or or two ( safety factor). I wonder he has some "problems" or what. I heard he has some problems and he avoids taking treatment as opposition will jump on. His problems can have effect on pakistan as who rules india affects neighbour. Hopefully Bilawal Bhutto has more children to b ring stability to pakistan. It is so fascinating to watch ruling families and their leading lights and their future wives as finally all depends on new childrens. We may not have everythings things as usa but some things are only possible in Desi lands.

DM as usual good article as expected of mature person.
Govt win is true and only after election one can say if Singh lost or won.

Re: # 89 Parthaab...... I did not follow that word. And you are right I have no good idea about many things. I should not write even about things , am ignorant of. All are aware the male female marriage is very difficult always its like driving car always controlling and prone to crashes. As men have been cruel to women , women have been cruel and some times in west they can shield by laws which favor them and can take revenge. A simple allegation of child abuse can lead to man in jail withnout much problem. Women are also abusive specially mentally and economically in west. Some students who deceived me by not paying and went to usa were punished by allah through their earlier wives. I did not feel their life is destroyed by evil women and not much can be done as laws are framed under unsaid assumption of men are guilty.
I am not aware men movements in pakistan as it will be shame to belong to such organization as man is supposed to be beating and tormrnting women.
Now i am also abused by daughters. They do not ask me any thing or consult me about their children and always say I do not understand. My younger daughter use to tell me to shut up as I do not know nothing about modern world. Daughters are like watering far away neighbors garden some times I feel. I have stopped telling anything but listen to stupid thinngs they tell on telephone. Really old age you learn tounderstand all is to forgive all.
If I said some thing it only inadvertently without malice.
Good morning, good day to all.

Re: # 77 Meiji Baby :)
"I am not asking you to sell them, merely exchange them."

You seem determined to cut a deal but I really don't deal in religious junk! Besides I can't exchange inanimate junk for your real men!

The folks you want are 'aloo-qeema' (ask the New York axeman) or Q-cumbers (if you ask me). The Indian Rupee is stronger than the Pak one but you may start bidding, let's say: batees Rupay aaTh anay (32.5 Rupees) 'sikka raij al-waqt' (currency of our time) per Q-cumber?

"These (Deos & Brels) guys are truest Muslims, no?"

Truest? From which angle? Islam is not 'lota, manjan, and surmah'! Exactly what do two million 'true' Muslims achieve in Raiwind each year?

Islam is non-stop action.

Re: # 67 ahmedmadani saheb,

There is a phrase in Hindi, that goes 'Koop mandook'. But you dont seem to know about the mens rights movement in Pakistan itself, and think it is an 'India specific phenomenon'! So how do you claim to know how villagers in India behave?
http://www.pakistanlink.com/Commentary/2004/Dec04/24/03.htm
http://www.buzzvines.com/husbands-rights

Males, please support the mens movements in your own country! Dont wait for injustice to reach you first!

Re: # 85 DM this is the kind of psycho-babble which did it in the 1920-30s-40-50-60s for the indians.....Sikh, Punjabi Muslims, et al are all now Indians in heart mind body and soul- very different W.Poonjabi muslims and Pathans and the Sindhis and the Baloochs who are all ethically different nations

Re: # 81 There is a song from Anokhi Raat - mile to kaantein se dosti karli or something like that....(its there on the UP thread). This was a song my partner was singing when the news broke out...and iwas told it was apt for the occasion...

DM sahib no offence, that sounds like a load of crap.

eklavya:

Yes, I can think of Sikhs, Punjabi Muslims and Pathans whose dosti is always "achhi" but not their "dushmani". Indira Gandhi could have told you that; they remained faithful to her even during the Emergency, but when she made them her enemies, her own bodyguard turned against her.

Re: # 82 "...just as I was about to respond......." damn damn damn damn....age is catching up....

Utam Kumar was (or is still is) a great bongo bongo actor

Ekalavya, I was reading DM and just I wanted to respond I saw your response ...DM's response reminded me of a song from way back in the mists of time (he will know it...)

raahi naye-naye rasta naya-naya tum na badalein main na badala sab-kuchh badal gaya raahi
naye-naye yaad suhaani bachapan ki patthar pe khinchi rekha pahalaa-pahala pyaar dilon se mitate
nahin dekha tuufaan samay ke bujha na sake dip jala to jala tum na badalein vaqt ke saath badal
jaaye use pyaar nahin kahate jo har mod pe mud jaaye use yaar nahin kahate yaar vahi jo saathi ban
kar dukh mein saath chala - 2 tum na badalein

"na inki dosti achhi, na inki dushmani achhi"

DM Ji, are there some other countries jinki dosti achhi hai, ya jinki dushmani achhi hai?

ahmadmadani:

I second majumdar's comment in #64:

Jo bhee ho tum khuda ki kasam lajawaab ho!

arjun:

The difference is that now the US President is bound by the US legislation to take action. I do agree however that things are not that clear-cut.

It is Iran today and could be another country or issue tomorrow. Frankly, my opinion re. the US is: "na inki dosti achhi, na inki dushmani achhi". You need them but you don't want to be in too tight an embrace with them.

Re: # 76 tahir dum ho to aaja UP ke maidaan mein....dekheinge kissme kitna dum hain (T)

Tahir mian,

(I can't sell our precious Q-cumbers)

I am not asking you to sell them, merely exchange them. Our Commies and mullahs hate being Indians and you guys hate your Q-cumbers. Win win for both sides!

(we just can't have enough of the Deobandis,why would we want more of the same merchandise?)

Why not? These guys are truest Muslims, no?

Regards

Re: # 75
Look Maj,

I'm not a slave-trader so I can't sell our precious Q-cumbers to you at Rupees thirty a kilo; they were already picked up cheap over a century ago. Get the idea?

And what would you do with Murtids, re-cycle them at Qadiyan? Ask ChowQ to send you some from Torn-apart-ronto.

And look, we just can't have enough of the Barelvis and Deobandis you sent us, why would we want more of the same merchandise?

As for the rich ABCDs, they ought to remain where they are, banished from the Land of the Poor.

Tahir mian,

(But if I were to give them to India, I would not be showing love for your country but rather animosity!)

What is considered good or bad for a nation may be different for different countries/societies.

Let me make an offer to you what I have already made to Zee sahib. You give us your Mirzaees, murtids and Ao Paos to us and we can give you our commies and mullahs in return.

Regards

Re: # 71
Arjun's versions upgrade very fast...After next patch upgrade major version number(2x)....

Anjun-13 is NOT a human being but rather an unclear (nuclear?) missile that keeps coming at us in upgraded forms!

Re: # 70 Maj

"If you love people who downgrade English, you can take them to Pakistan and give you English speakers to us in exchange. Deal?"

The only specimens worth exporting are Sheikh Rasheed and Chaudhry Shuja'at! But if I were to give them to India, I would not be showing love for your country but rather animosity!

Let me think hard now....

PS: I made numerous offers to Laddu and other poisonous ones but they refused to appear in person at the Wahga Border post!

Re: # 56 Neither arjun.

as you go through more reincarnations some of those brain cells are not being regenerated.....:(

Tahir mian,

Re: 69

If you love people who downgrade English, you can take them to Pakistan and give you English speakers to us in exchange. Deal?

Regards

Mumbai, a modern Babel, downgrades English!

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080725/twl-life-india-mumbai-languag e-dc-9020220.html

Ahmed madani sahib,

Re: 67

Interesting story. Btw tell us not only what happened to this gora sahib in Punjab but also rural Sindh, Karachi and more importantly in NWFP. Did the Pushtoon men take interest in this gora sahib?

Regards

Re: # 64 Well indioa and pakistan has also similar reputation.
I asked one real white man what come to his mind when Pakistan,and Inda etc.
He told me honeslt sir not much. India is just full of bunch of hindus feasting on vegetable and smoking dope and mediating. tHEY ARE CUNNING PEOPLE. I told him I know that he said no you do not know.
He told me story.
He was bit romantic and decided to go out of way in his car.
In place no civilision his car got sturk up in big ditch. Ditch was covered with branches and grass. Now white was concerned. How to get got of this ditch of his car. He was also worried as he knew some dark indian women may kidnap them ( You indian partho babu is worried about women) as he was so gora milk white.).
He began to pray for savior Jesus Christ etc.
To his surprise few children came and brought him bottled water and then he talked on phone then few little indians came soon 20 indian men came. Without asking they started helping and with some effort and helf of 20 people bullocks pulled out , he offered them money. He said you indians are so kind. Then people said you come to food with we poor people. So eat with them and then time to departure came and many women we looking at him and she began to sweat. He knew those women were dark and strong like buffollow and what will happen if they kidnap him for fun.
Finally he thanked head man and asked what you do. He said we help all when motor car get struck up in that big "pot" hole. And we wait to help stranded motorists. Then that white man was fool and asked them why you do not put earth and make road ok. Then head man said sir we made hole it took time , its our livehood. Simple Indian life of village. Then few women began to say "Kitana Gora Hay". Then white man jumped and never saw back till he reached airport and on airplane. He never went back to India and he avoids indian airspace as what will happen to him if he survives and surrounded by wild buffollows in rural side.

Pakistanis he has also some steorotype which is bad.
He said "Pakis" are bunch of fools and over estimate themselves.He sid they are wild bunch of people roaming with big beards and with AK-47 and hitting their wives and girl friends.( he did not knew there are no girlsfriends here). Other thing about Paki is like thier bloody hindu neighbours. They are conservative but when comes to free liquior from white man they forget all and drink like fish.
He told his experience in heart land of Punjab. But that to bad and hurt feeling of punjabis. So I will leave it now as I do not like such stuff at all.
Now africa south is dark and not arab but north afriica is full of arabs and they have their heros like king of Morroco and he gets all drugs from paksiatan. Then you have reformed Col Gaddaffi. It appears "jungle life" is disappearing in africa but in general all over africa is just all jungis. Karachi is very nice place and nice moist humid weather and lack of power no fan works sweats lots and toxins go out.
Any way I will write gora's experience in punjab next time.

Re: # 61
Ahmed....
This is hilarious....You make people laugh...
Centuries of arab slavery have kept the entire Pakistani populace to forget that, once their ancestors were civilised people... and you Pakistanis are talking about slavery!!!!!....
I can reall this song from Dr. Alban....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e-VtxFOAQ0

Re: # 62 For to get gas deliverd to India, India needs to keep pakistan andn Iran happy.India building "real nyclear power Plant" like lifting 500 pound by person useing braces. Lot of management is needed to run "1000 MW N.Plant". May be aftrer 50 yeears. As they need to make effiorts to make passable roads first. Now bridges built by indian are washing out fast ( as they are made up of concrete, old bristish engg built in real still and still doing good) , they were building N.Plant but that dome came down itself as Chor Indian contractors mixed earth replacing 30 % cement. One should not attempt to big things as no nuclear power plant work will be completed. All dreams against IPIPipe line

AM sahib,

does really make any difference? all black countries and all problems just difference 8n degree.

There is no one quite like you on chowk, sir!!!

Regards

Re: # 60
does really make any difference? all black countries and all problems just difference 8n degree.

#59 Posted by anil on July 24, 2008 8:52:04 pm

So the two issues that people bring up are moot..

i.e.
1. OH NOES!! India can't test

2. Oh NOES!! what about Iran...

Re: # 54
#92 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 22, 2008 4:58:57 pm
Re: # 89 Mr. Shah please do not get fooled by Indians.
Not indian love for land, then recent events do not match that thing.
oday India lost freedom and accepted USA as master or lord of India. East India compaNY IS NOW AMERIOCAN COMPANY.Indian elect leaders voted by majority to give freedom away and become slave of america. Now america will be micromanaging indian atomic activity. The usa govt knew no live pakistani leader including Mily ruler can dare to do that type of deal which will allow american access to bomb secrets and Dr. Khan. So wisely they never tried to apply such "remidy" on pakistan and try to destroy family jewels and national assets. Mr. Gandhi if present would have died due to sad feeling.
America tried that medicine but in muslim countries it does not work.This strange compared to Inda. Pakuistan govt is vassal state of usa true BUT. But they new that to impose condition on like india will lead to war. They nknew they will have to invade pakistan like iraq and A.Stan still people will not allow usa to control nukes. That is contrast between india and PK. Indians actively anf freely became slaves of usa, while pakistan is vassal state still they are afraid of Pakistani awam as they know if they touch nuclear material things will explode.
Also no point in worshipping rives and animals and mountains. Most of world knows India as buch of Hindus worshipping animals and feeding grains to rats. Let us not loose sense due to their strange habits like feasing on veggies and strange breathing and moving part of body ( yoga stuff) but being exotic does not mean good.

Harimau sahib

Re: 32

Well said. One correction, though Mugabe is the Prez of Zimbabwe, not Zambia.

Regards

Re: # 57
Arjun:

I can answer your questions.

1. No India could not have gone on another round of tests without serious consequences on the economy. That is why I could not understand BJPs opportunistic stand, and CPM's ideological stand on "independence" someone said it the deal was China they would jumped up.

2. Iran does not play much role in India, but it is going to be a Middle Power, the U.S. and others will have to back down and accept it, as long as it accepts to co-exists Israel. Iran is needed to divide Oil between Shia and Sunni oils to have competition. IPI pipeline is the only issue, I do not know the details, I am certain, Indian bania must have done their risk reward analysis, and how to get capital investment protected and pay back. For a would be trillion dollar economy (in the life time of IPI pipeline) a couple of billion dollars investment in the present money can make sense.

#36 Posted by pmishra2 on July 24, 2008 9:04:48 am


You would think that before this vote indian democracy was completely free of corruption or vote buying !


You nailed it...and to hear the kuldip nayyars tell it, you'd think India's relationship with Iran was the most important relationship in India's history EVER...or that india could have just tested a whole bunch of nukes if it hadn't signed this deal...

#30 Posted by dost_mittar on July 24, 2008 7:51:52 am


it will have to decide how to vote on the Iran issue.


Two questions....

1. What if the deal hadn't been signed...do you think it would have been easier for india to go for another round of tests?

2. Why is it a big deal if India throws Iran under the bus or sits on the fence? what great strategic interest does India have with Iran...and is this interest bigger that it's relationship with the US...

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#22 Posted by dost_mittar on July 24, 2008 7:09:54 am

Like I said, this deal is only important until india can get the U-Pu-Thorium cycle going...once that's done, it'll have enough power from it's thorium plants while having saved it's indigenous supplies of uranium for bombs...

to hear pakis tell it, the deal means slavery for india...if so, why are they begging for a deal even after being repeatedly turned down....?

Pakistan desire similar nuclear deal with US; Qureshi PDF Print E-mail

LONDON, July 24 (APP)-Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has said his country desire a similar nuclear deal with US as it has done with India. Responding to questions at the conclusion of his keynote address at the British Security think tank-International Institute for Strategic Studies- on Thursday afternoon, the Foreign Minister said Indo-US nuclear agreement must not be discriminatory in nature.

“Pakistan should be eligible for the same facility,� he said citing country’s growing energy requirements and needs.

pmishra#52:

You are right, both about the situation and the source of my sadness.

Manmohan got the job done - he understood this was an opportunity - worked with Sonia mai to force a showdown - Advani ended up sounding like a idiot (which he is) - Prakash Karat like a blow-hard graduate student (which he is).

Maybe you are upset that Prof Manmohan has become neta Manmohan...

Re: # 42

Dost sahib:
I still cannot see Manmohan Singh as failing. His venture into taking on "Indian" politicians without stooping to their level is remarkable lesson of "Niti" that he showed. Amar Singh & Company did the dirty work, not him. Besides, the reality is this how the votes are exchanged in legislative houses all over the world. You cannot tell me that Canadian parliament no horse trading has ever been made to get votes. This is true in the U.S. house and senate (favors are called pork-barrel), in British parliament scratching each others back happens every so often.

Bottom line is CPM showed their colors. I think they will contiue to win in WB, because the election machine they have there. BJP's opportunism became open for all to see. I hope BJP retires Advani before the election and bring some fresh blood.

dehliwala#48:

I am not a socialist and never was; somehow escaped it even while studying at DSE. Even in those days, I liked Rajgopalachari and his Swatantra Party, which was unfortunately patronised by only a few industrialists and feudals.

I still admire Manmohan Singh's courage. But I do feel sad that even a man of his character could not avoid the "chheentay" of the "keechad" of Indian politics.

GT#47:

Yes, we do and no hard feelings. I regard democracy as merely a form of governance which has to prove itself with superior results;it may be suitable under some circumstances and not so in other circumstances. I would prefer the limited democracy of today's China where freedom of some people in my position is traded off for the greater good of the common man and woman.

Dear DM sahib:
It is very easy to criticize anyone from outside.
There is no such thing as clean politician in the World.

Other side of the spectrum is that he has proven and beaten all the master stratgcians of the world by not only surviving 5 years in Power but also acheiving his promise and goal of treaty.

It has raised his stature in my eyes. My father used to work under Manmohan Singh Jee's organization and he had a reputation of drving in his tootee-footee Maruti Car himself when everyone else was using official cars.

Maaf Karna.....Sir lekin People of your generation who grew up in Indira raj and have socialist inclination(including my own dad) have this concept of "clean image politican", "selfless image" etc.
They dont mean a JACK. Who is clean in this world?
did MMS made this clean image himself or did people like you started calling him that way....did he advertise himself as that...NO....

He was labeled by Advani as the honest, but weak and Nikaama PM who does not understand Politics. Now he has proven otherise.


Appki Nazro mai koi aisay shaksh hai jo clean politican ho?

D_M,

It is nice to know that we agree to disagree on fundamentals. Have a very good day Sir.

Regards.

GT#44, 45:

I agree that we do not share the same ethical framework.

It has nothing to do with "shoodra", etc. It is the system we have created and that some people do not find anything wrong with.

As for Mushy, he was okay until he felt the need for proving his democratic credentials and held a referendum to prove his legitimacy and held "rigged elections". From then on, it was a steady downfall for him.

D_M,

".... a man of utmost integrity, such as Manmohan Singh, had to stoop to levels of Amar Singhs and Laloos in order to succeed ...."

Aah Manmohan the angel stooping to the level of the shuddar Amar Singh!

India should be thankful to all the three above. They are brilliant, shrewd, cut-throat and great facilitators. That is why we elect them to rule on our behalf. It is because of people like them we are different from the great burmese republic.

D_M:

1. V.P. Singh did nothing either. IMF had better access to Rajiv's govt. compared to previous govts. Montek, Shankar etc. were mouth-pieces then and were used .... just like Montek had used Rajan now. Anyway, in the broader scheme, all of them are pawns ... of course bigger pawns than me.

2. "But it is Manmohan Singh who is generally credited with ending the license-quota raj." Given what you said previous to this sentence, have you asked why? And are you convinced?

3. "But unlike you, I do not celebrate it as a "gift" but a "curse" of democracy..."

Why? What is wrong with buying or selling your vote as long as you are not forcing the other party? Indira Gandhi never bought votes from MPs .... it makes her more moral than Manmohan?

4. "... handed down to a people who were not ready for the responsibility that this system of government relies upon."

I agree, bring the Brits back to rule over these brown, uncivilized masses. Better still, get an enlightened dictator like Mushy baba. Did Mushy have to buy votes? Just asking.

GT:

I am not creating myths. I have been on record that economic reforms in India were started by none other than the dye-in-the-wool leftist, V.P. Singh when he became Finance Minister under Rajiv Gandhi. He was the one who cut income tax rates in a dramatic way and showed that they increased rather than reduced total government intake, thus proving the bankruptcy of earlier policies. And people like Shankar Acharya and Montek Ahluwalia imported from the World Bank. But it is Manmohan Singh who is generally credited with ending the license-quota raj.

It is not my contention that politicians are more corrupt than other sections of the Indian society. But unlike you, I do not celebrate it as a "gift" but a "curse" of democracy handed down to a people who were not ready for the responsibility that this system of government relies upon.

anil#37:

I agree with you re. Advani and the BJP. There is no doubt in my mind that Mandir and other communal issues will be brought to the forefront in the next election, either directly or in the coded language of fighting terrorism.

I am not so much critical of Manmohan Singh as the sad state of politics in India that even a man of utmost integrity, such as Manmohan Singh, had to stoop to levels of Amar Singhs and Laloos in order to succeed.

pmishra#36:

The lament is not about the degeneration of Indian democracy but of the personal devaluation of Manmohan Singh. At the same time, I do admire his courage of conviction which made him take on the Left and, more importantly his own Congress colleagues, for something that he believed in.

As for IPI pipeline, I really do not know what the impact will be. No less a person than the head of the India caucus in the US Congress, Gary Ackerman, has warned that there will be price to pay for India if it goes ahead with the pipeline project.

iron:

"But who are Mr Dasgupta, Mr Phelps and Mr Bhatia and mr Walker? Are these the high members of the Borg Collective?"

That is the point. I do not know them too. But I do not call this club of lobbyists (brokers or dallals) - "Mr. Manmohan Singh".

Re: # 38 GT as usual straight to the bone. Come on you need to add "excuse me DM sahib", "by your leave Sir" etc etc and tug a few fore locks etc etc

Yes youdo have a point there. But who are Mr Dasgupta, Mr Phelps and Mr Bhatia and mr Walker? Are these the high members of the Borg Collective?

D_M:

1. Not only you, but even the Economist is into creating myths. We know why the Economist does so. I do not know why you do so. Manmohan did not liberalize the Indian Economy then, neither is he the "only one" single-handedly getting the deal through. The deal got through because of behind the scene brokers (we used to call them dallals earlier) like, Mr. Dasgupta, Mr. Phelps, Mr. Bhatia, Mr. Walker etc. etc. If you do not know them, then just call them brokers. Do not call the collective "Mr. Manmohan Singh".

2. If the Congress bought votes, it is OK. In every democracy you buy votes through money, favors or promises. Voluntary, buying and selling leads to Pareto improvements. If constituents do not like their "netas" selling out on the deal then "democracy" will ensure that the neta will loose. If on the other hand the neta is able to "buy" constituents for Rs.100 each, that means that the constituent does not give a rat's ass to the deal. And you and I got to respect that.

3. I simply do not understand why we hold our netas to such high degrees of "morality" when we ourselves cheat without blinking an eye-lid. We forget that "elections" etc. are costly and money is needed. Plus, WE have given our netas "power" to fight "bad-people" on our behalf. We need to provide them with material needs at par with the power. I do not understand why we need to take moral high grounds, and make heroes out of unwilling average people, while living in "reality" 24/7/360 ourselves.

Dost sahib:

I do not understand your "Manmohan Loses" stand. As I see, this leftist economist made transition to market economist guided Indian reforms very successfully, and he even took politicians, played their game and won the crucial vote.

Looser has been Advani, his blind ambition for PM ship, really showed with as the worst opportunist in the current parliament. He may have problem getting dalit, vote, muslim votes and even upper class hindu votes. BJP will need more substantial "riot" to polarize votes nationwide all over again.

I am surprised at the negative tone of this article. You would think that before this vote indian democracy was completely free of corruption or vote buying !

I think this is a small but important decision for india. There is a need for diverse sources of energy - nuclear is one component - creating a gas pipeline from iran is another component. I hope the govt will take that forward as well.

Re: # 30 It is now even more incumbent on India to follow the non-proliferation rules - irrespective of who is in power... so India has to vote along with the US and others on this.

Re: # 32 that goes without saying harimau (T). WE should do it the chinese way....

Full text of Manmohans speech - he wasnt allowed to deliver it by our netas...

http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/23/stories/2008072356391100.htm

Ever y day that I have been Prime Minister of India I have tried to remember that the first 10 years of my life were spent in a village with no drinking water supply, no electricity, no hospital, no roads and nothing that we today associate with modern living. I had to walk miles to school, I had to study in the dim light of a kerosene oil lamp. This nation gave me the opportunity to ensure that such would not be the life of our children in the foreseeable future.

Ref Dash_Dot #16

[....interesting and lovely...Pakistan wins friend..it is the unravelling of the united indian consensus on foreign policy!]

The united Indian consensus on foreign policy has been one of standing at the edge of a precipice on an icy mountain and pissing against the wind and getting a warm feeling from the experience!

Good thing someone dumped this sh!t. The next thing that should go is the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) and any association with creeps like Robert Mugabe and other Presidents-for-Life in African countries. The only deal we should have with Mugabe is the right to exploit Zambia's copper mines no matter who comes to power there.

Ref zeemax #15

[What's this news about Shiv Senaks barging into Taj Mahal to do puja? Have they made a new God/dess out of Shah Jehan/ Mumtaz Mahal now?

But what about passages from the Qur'an all over the walls?]

Well, are Delhi's Muslims about to perform namaz at the mosque near Qutb Minar?

What are they going to do about all those figures of celestial nymphs on the pillars of that mosque?

Are they the 72 virgins promised the shahids? Will they then make love to the pillars? Does the lack of foreskin improve the act of intercourse with figures carved in granite?

Zeemax, we all have questions but the answers are short in supply!

Dash#29:

Indians have to make that choice anyway, don't they? Whether or not India signs the nuclear deal, it will have to decide how to vote on the Iran issue. Whatever understanding Singh may have given to Bush is of not much significance; for all we know, neither of them may be in power a year from now.

Re: # 28 yes. But there is very little that can be done ...the safe guards are for the civilian reactors, and new uranium obtained from now on.

With old material, there is very little that can be done. Secondly, it is incumbent on all parties to adhere to agreements. If one party reserves the the right to abrogate international agreements (generally multilateral) then it is open season. So if the US tests, China tests, russia tests, India will test. but this is in the realms of castle in the air.

What is more important is "whether india has the taste for being a patrolling partner on the non-proliferation issue"? That is the real test. The rest as they say is just add-ons.

Dash#24:

The way I read the deal (and someone can correct me if I am misreading), one should separate the issue of adding to the nuclear stockpile and of doing new testing. As for as the former is concerned, the agreement with the US or IAEA does not put any restriction on India adding to its nuclear arsenal using material from reactors not specified by it as civilian. But conducting a new test, even with non-civilian reactors, could potentially trigger Hyde Amendment.

Re: # 26 Django, may you live a thousand years (or what ever is the saying), and I was reading the eConomist on this

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11779444&a mp;a mp;source=features_box3

and you are on the money (T) ;)

The outcome was a particular triumph for Mr Singh, who has waged a lonely campaign on behalf of the nuclear agreement. The indifference exhibited by many in Congress towards it has been almost as problematic as the Communists’ opposition. Free of these trials, the deal—or, more precisely, a safeguards agreement required by it—is now expected to go before the IAEA’s board of directors on August 1st. If the board approves, the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group will be asked to rewrite its rules to accommodate the deal. America’s Congress would then be asked to give a final blessing to the arrangement.

watch what ecomomist says..if it says its good then its pro-NATO.

we must thank the left and the BJP-SP for opposing the bill, this makes it more "valuable" to amrica/NATO. Also, this deal is good for getting better pricing from iran for IPI gas.

DM,
"There has never been a foreign policy issue which has divided India as much as the Indo-US nuclear deal. "

Hmmm, i do not think this is true. Overwhelming majority of people are for the deal. Except for Communists almost all the parties were ok with the deal. Two things,

First BJP simply didn't wanted Congress to have all the credit for the deal. They wud've passed the same deal if they were in power.

Second Communists wanted to topple the govt and BJP saw an opportunity for forcing elections and they tried maximum to oppose the deal.

Re: # 22 One the things people forget is that nuclear material is diferent from any other resource. Every gram of it has to be accounted for, and every gram of it can be traced. There are international agreements on this, and india has been (or has become) a signatory to these treaties, The Nuke deal adds to this.

thus if any material got under the deal goes missing (or is unaccounted for), india could be in the same situation as Iraq, saddam and the WMDs. in Iraq, this materail went mising, and no one believed Saddam when he said he did not have ...and this material is even now missing - where has it gone...your guess is as good as mine.

Thus it is important that India adheres to all such agreements and treaties. Even for weapons testing, it cannot use material got under this treaty....then India is in trouble (as DM says in #22). If India were to use its own material not obtained under the safe guards regime (the para quoted t DM some time back), or pre-existing material India can get away with it.

But what this agreement does is to make India a partner to the Non-proliferation deal, and make it a patrolling partner ...ala U.K. Whether this is India's cup of tea or not is something which time will tell.

Dont hold your breath regarding power/energy....this is not what the deal is about.....that is just the Indian Industrial houses wet dream (esp Ambani's). This deal is about non-proliferation, and making use of India for some future purpose.

India had a first test of its role as a responsible country (re:non-proloferation patrol partner) when it voted against iran at the IAEA. the next test is coming soon, when Iran comes up again....that is the real deal of this deal.

vengat:

Although the language is deliberately vague, the Hyde Amendment clearly warns of consequences if India does conduct another test or goes against the US interest.

But I do accept the argument that once the interests of the US companies are tied to India, it would be difficult for any US administration to take any steps that hurt those companies in a big way.

arjun#7:

The US could also terminate the agreement if India conducted another test, according to the Hyde Amendment or if it pursued policies inimical to the US.

And if we go back to what happened in 98, what do we gain, except being hostage to greater shortage of uranium, heavy water, etc. than now?

I wonder why no one seems to know the price of this deal - which is in the range of $150 billion over the next 15 years!

At thee prices, electricity would cost THREE TIMES as much as the alternatives.

Why is this important part being ignored by the Congressi types?

Dash#2:

I merely said that there have been reports. The sting operation by CNN-IBN shows that money indeed did change hands.

Ijaz#1:

Majumdar gave you the answer. Brajesh Mishra, Vajpayee's foreign policy advisor, has said that he would have accepted the deal. But the BJP has also lost an important constituency, the NRIs and the "India-Shining" types by its opposition to the deal.

I also believe that some BJP people genuinely feel that India has lost its ability to do further nuclear testing.

P.S. I sent you an email.

ekalavya, dont get me wrong....here...MMS has done something which is far more important and better than what BJP managed to do.....(all the while keeping the nuke deterent intact..there has been no capping of it...).and in this I agree with Sid Varadarajan when he says and I quote:

IN THE fullness of time, last week's nuclear agreement between India and the United States will be seen as one of those decisive moments in international politics when two powers who have been courting each other for some time decide finally to cross the point of no return. The U.S. and India have `come out', so to speak, and the world will never be the same again.

Every world order needs rules in order to sustain itself but sometimes the rules can become a hindrance to the hegemonic strength of the power that underpins that order. Following India's nuclear tests in 1998, the U.S. had two options: continuing to believe the Indian nuclear genie could be put back, or harnessing India's evident strategic weight for its own geopolitical aims before that power grows too immense or is harnessed by others like Europe or China. The U.S. has chosen the latter option, and the joint statement released by President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on July 18 is the most dramatic textual manifestation of what Washington is attempting to do.

India too, had a choice. It could use its nuclear weapons status as a lever to push for a multipolar world system as well as for global restraints on the development of weapons of mass destruction. Or it could use its status as an instrument to help perpetuate an order based on the production of insecurity and violence in which it eventually hoped to be accommodated as a junior partner. The erstwhile Vajpayee Government was never interested in the former option and longed desperately for the latter. The fact that Dr. Singh has managed this is the real source of the BJP's bitterness, not the fact that India's nuclear weapons capability is to be capped (which it is not).

Ref: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=VAR20050729& amp; amp;articleId=756

For those who believe that this ia capping of the Indian deterent should carry on reading the analysis, and it says

"By integrating India into the non-proliferation order at the cost of capping the size of its eventual nuclear deterrent," Ashley Tellis argued in a recent monograph, "[the U.S. would] threaten to place New Delhi at a severe disadvantage vis-à-vis Beijing, a situation that could not only undermine Indian security but also U.S. interests in Asia in the face of the prospective rise of Chinese power over the long term" (India as a New Global Power: An Action Agenda for the United States, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2005). This, then, is the real value of the deal in American eyes and the Indian public should be aware of it.


Sid my man, goes on to say Of all the misgivings present in the public mind, it is the fear of a quid pro quo on some other front that the Prime Minister most needs to dispel. It is this aspect of the deal which MMS has not been convincing enough. I do not see anything anywhere from the minister or the govt on this apsect. This is what is worrying, the blithe matter of fact manner in which the likes of Sibal et al are going about today (in fact the vote went through) makes me wonder.

The agreement would not prohibit India from testing a bomb. The advisory part of the agreement states India to abstain from testing, which does not make it incumbent on us. Like the Chinese agreement's advisory part asks them to end human righ violation in Tibet, allow people to practise religion etc...China went ahead and signed the agreement.

Re: # 14 Ekalavya, reading you reminded me of this song...sort like you singing it ;)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ljLg7Lw7hqs

Seriously, you heard Omar Abdullah's speech just before the division on the trust motion...."he said...it was about our land...."...and then today he announced he was going to Pakistan to plead with Pakistan to stop killing their people in kashmir....interesting and lovely...Pakistan wins friend..it is the unravelling of the united indian consensus on foreign policy! ;)

What's this news about Shiv Senaks barging into Taj Mahal to do puja? Have they made a new God/dess out of Shah Jehan/ Mumtaz Mahal now?

But what about passages from the Qur'an all over the walls?

Dash, Pakistan has every reason to vote against India at IAEA meeting or any other meeting of any importance. But how does India lose her voice?

I didnot expect to do it twice...but there its called chowk-interface- incontinence (CII) ..... blushing icon here

Re: # 10 uh! are you sure about this? the US in a statement after the vote said, it will try to convince Pakistan not to vote aginst India at the IAEA meeting.

Come on, ekalavya, this one deal has resulted in India losing its voice and is now at the beck and call of pakistan ...it was covert...now it is overt....so what has MMS done....chickens, home, roost etc are words whic come to mind ;)

Re: # 10 uh! are you sure about this? the US in a statement after the vote said, it will try to convince Pakistan not to vote aginst India at the IAEA meeting.

Come on, ekalavya, this one deal has resulted in India losing its voice and is now at the beck and call of pakistan ...it was covert...now it is overt....so what has MMS done....chickens, home, roost etc are words whic come to mind ;)

Dr. Singh performed a feat of highest personal integrity, and unbelievable courage for an Indian politician. Indeed, it's still hard to believe that he single handedly took on and stood up to a gang of malicious and vicious leftist thugs for the greater good of India, knowing full well that they could have destroyed him.

i completely agree with arjun.

hats off to MMS for going ahead with the decision to operationalize the nuke deal. india is growing and is hungry for energy. all sources are welcome.

as far as nuclear testing etc is concerned, once india does business with west, i am sure a lot of things can and will be over looked. money is the best balm for a lot of problems....as our mps proved it!!!!!

The Congress is busy finding issues to divert attention from the economic crisis and inflation, that is looming large over the country. Its largesse to the feminist groups and the loan defaulters is going to haunt the Indian economy.

When the BJP handed power, its slogan was 'India shining'. When the Congress goes to the election, what will it say? It will pray that the issue is about Amarnath yatra, or Ram Setu or nuke deal! Did MMS bribe Advani also to divert from the main issues of the people? Anything could be possible!

The bottom line, is that Sonia Gandhis Prime Minister, has lost the faith of his people, never mind his cutting deals with 'allies' who can now make more and even more money for another year at the least.

The country is governed now, by corrupt ministers, who have a few people like MMS, as their mask, for carrying on their nefarious activities.

The economic mismanagement of the government ( 100000 crores for 1. loan defaulters - so that they dont have to pay back, and 2. the feminists - so that they dont need one ) has resulted in an inflation rate which is threatening to go beyond control already.

The arrogance of the Congress is sky-high, especially in their anti-male laws, which are their USP, is atrocious. The male victims of these laws will no doubt be praying for the ruination of such an insensitive political party.

The opposition is incompetant and banks too much on its own communalism and casteism vote-banks, which is demoralising their own ranks. The nation should rather reform its political process to see more responsibilty and accountabilty from the elected persons. But it should also allow only elected people to represent their voices.

as it imposes a virtual ban on any nuclear weapons testing by India while its adversaries, especially China, face no such restriction.


The only way this would be a ban is if india were giving away it's nuclear weapons...and, as you say in your article, it's not..

so this point is moot...india can test if it wants...the consequences will be no worse than what happened in 98..

hats off to manmohan...the best leader india has had...ever..

Re: # 2
"Maya to gaya"- she has to face CBI...and Amar Singh will oversee the whole investigation.
The nuke deal is kind of opportunity for SP to mint money from Ambanis (Anil and Mukesh)...
BJP central leadership is supposed to be greatest loosers and Advani should wait for shock in next general election.

Win in Karnataka and Gujrat is more of personal effort from Modi and BSY. In other places, BJP won due to infighting in Congress...

Re: # 3
Majumder...
Not exactly...
The group in BJP, who started the negotiation (AVB, Jaswant Singh) were very soft on safeguard issue. RSS wants little more concession from USA and NSG to be at per with China. Some minor changes in Hyde Act would not have created such situation. Due to opposition from CPI(M), Congress have ignored couple of BJP initiatives (Pension reforms...). So, BJP was quite adamant of not helping Congress...

Why MMS will loose for such event?
Most of the BJP defectors were supposed to vote for MMS due to internal problems. Advani is not very powerful now in BJP ( what he was 10 years ago),such that, he can dictate terms. Uma Bharti, Madan lal Khurana etc. episode has proved that very well...BJP was forced into such situation by CPI(M). CPI(M) wanted to dump the Govt. for inflation and other generic issues and moslem vote bank.
People like H T Sangliana were very close to Congress administration and due to NDA wave for Centre, he has used BJP as platform to win election. Manorama Madhwaraj was angry with BJP leaders in K'taka, specialy BSY, for promoting Sobha Karandlaje...Dissent in Gujrat is very high. So, along with Soma Patel, there should have been couple of more BJP MPs,who voted for Congress/UPA.
If Nuke Deal is not important enough for the ruling alliance to sacrifice Govt., it is not such an issue that opposition has to topple Govt. Some day or other, India had to sighn such deal, or it had to wind up DOE. USA is constantly blocking transfer of technology, nuclear fuel from Russia. Russia used entertain us,due to its monopoly over Indian arms market. But, when that has broken, Russia is also not interested to protect India from international (better to say NATO) pressure...
I know CPI(M) etc... from outside they look very principled...talk about american imperialism etc... but when it comes to education, civilian technology etc... they prefer USA over any other country...
BJP, though talk very tough, at ground level is pretty ordinary....
Mayawati, TDP etc... have nothing to gain or loose from the Nuke deal etc. They were just trying fish in troubled water.....

Here is the thing which is missed out in the reams of papers and hours of TV and Tera-bytes on the net:

the Govt had promised, before the vote, that before the actual operationalisation of the treaty and other things, they would come back to seek the vote and approval of the parliament and the nation.

Now after the trust vote, it would be take as a given that they have been given carte-blanche to do all of the above without returning to the parliament.


Apart fromt he churning I mentioned below, this is the other aspect or outcome of the vote. Watch the way this will be spun out in the coming months

Ijaz sahib,

Why did BJP back off though they began the negotiations?

It is the duty of an opposition party to oppose, that is why.

Regards

BHai DM, you are making allegations and repeating canards of bribery, in an otherwise reasonably good article. Where is the proof. The devaluation of democracy is a standard operation in the subcontinent, this is done by chucking around wild allegations.

It is understood that the politicians are a venal lot, and that they can be sweetened. but, Sir, where is the proof I ask when you make this allegation of Rs 25 Crore!

So the 13/15 who cross voted must each have been paid Rs 25 Crore, which equates to some Rs 300 Crore approximately (actually more than this but let us go with the lower figure). For this level, you need proof. You do not have it.

The anti-deal grouping, could not develop their arguments coherently, and unfortunately they are a weird amalgam of ideologically driven groups
(a) BSP
(b) CPI(M)
(c) FB
(d) RPI
(e) CPI
(f) BJP
(g) TDP
(h) JD(S)
etc etc

All of these people, the real big hitters with the intellectual clout i.e the CPI, CPI(M), TDP and the BJP (the rest are basically pissed off parties) could not develop a coherent strategy:

(a) CPI(M) and Co: Ideologically driven opposition was the appearence they gave and could not shed their image of chinese handling, nor did they go beyond their anti-big business rethoric (check http://youtube.com/watch?v=cjEYYDLu7Ac for part I and part II of the speeches given by Bardhan at the Convention on the deal held last year). Failed rethoric is the cause for their failure is large part outside the parliament, and big-boots-syndrome (hubris) inside it.

(b) the BJP: What can one say about these guys? Do you recall the CTBT fiasco? Isnt this better than the CTBT? If it is not, then the BJP failed intellectually to raise to the challenge and deserved to be defeated.

The rest of the rotten vegetables the less said the better.

but the no-trust vote (one called by MMSingh) has resulted in some interesting groupings. The one thing which it did, and note in this context, Advani's 100 day remark, is to churn the parties and trhough up some new allignments. In the coming days, and months and years it will be interesting to see what the new handlers of Mayavati and the BSP do with this new opportunity to enter UP.

Dost,
Why did BJP back off though they began the negotiations?