Fissures in the Middle

#405, 406.

Guru sahib

How are you doing? A piece of advice to you. Nobody reads long copy pastes so you waste chowk space and your own precious time and with every long copy paste, the members learn to ignore you with greater speed- please tell me if I am wrong, other members.

So, why don't you keep your posts short, try to reduce your thoughts to a paragraph or two. If you cannot do that, just a simple "Islam sux" would do, we get your drift.

Thank you for your generous attention.

Arjun writes "#398 Posted by masadi on August 5, 2008 7:46:34 am

1. I don't care what pakis think of me..
2. Your country's jihadi policies have killed a lot of indians..so it's only fair that I get to enjoy the civil war that's resulting from your jihadi policies..if you think that's unfair, see point # 1. "

Arjun sahib,

Thank you for your vitriolic response. As you know quite well and as you have elaborated in many a nasty post, no democracy exists in Pakistan. So my friend how can you blame the "jihadi policies" of Pakistan on its people? Now the Pakistan Army would say that the Indians have killed a lot of Kashmiris through their state terrorism, and the average joe of Pakistan would conclude similar to what you are concluding. Might I remind you that hunger and disease have killed many more Indians than any "Jihadi" policy of the illegal Pakistani governments, who have certainly killed more of their own than any Indians they have killed?

I'm sure you care little about what Pakistani's think, but the little you care is enough, if you didn't care at all, you wouldn't make post after post on Chowk to make the Pakistani's feel different about their country. Saying you don't care is like saying you don't care about a good portion of your waking life.... think about it, there is yet a cure for your disease if you give that sleeping brain in your skull a chance to look past the cobwebs of hate that maybe your own inadequacies have created?

Have a good day now,

The "new and improved" Masadi.

Dost writes :"He pointed out that during the Interim Government of 1946-47 when Nehru was the Prime Minister and Liaqat Ali the Finance Minister, every social or economic bill that came for consideration was discussed not on its merit but how if would affect Hindus or Muslims. Thus, ML would veto any legislation for land reforms as it would adversely affect Muslim landlords and also veto any legislation that would help industrialists who were largely Hindus. His prognosis was that if India had remained united, the same division would have continued preventing any kind of economic reforms."


Dost sahib

I understand your dilemma. However, this division had a history much shorter than the history that says otherwise. Divisions are created and manipulated, once they assume a reality of their own, leading them to the conclusion of how they were contrived to begin with is not the correct path to take.These divisions were nourished and used by the Colonials, they were the authors of them. Once the colonial yolk was taken away, Muslims and Hindus could have better than what ensued, taken the democratic path to fix their problems rather than play in the hands of the colonials and feudals, relegating the vast majority of India and Pakistan to dispicible conditions much worse than the political bickering among the elite Hindu/Muslim.

#374 majumdar

[Harishbhai,

Pls refer to YLH's write-up "Jinnah's India". The main argument against him is not that he was a Hindoo, but a man was a medievalist who pandered to communalists and Liberal MUSLIMs have been far more bitter at him for pandering to MUSLIM communalists/fundoos rather than Ram Rajya.]


Okay, So is that YOUR main argument against Gandhi as well?

#398 Posted by masadi on August 5, 2008 7:46:34 am

1. I don't care what pakis think of me..
2. Your country's jihadi policies have killed a lot of indians..so it's only fair that I get to enjoy the civil war that's resulting from your jihadi policies..if you think that's unfair, see point # 1.

22-yr-old Hamza Shakoor has been identified as the bomber who carried out the suicide attack outside the Indian Embassy in Kabul, according to sources. The blast killed more than 40 people including a Brigadier of the Indian army.

According to sources, Hamza Shakoor hails from the Gujranwala district of Punjab in Pakistan.He was an activist of the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Shakoor is said to have been recruited by the Gujranwala chapter of the Jamaatul Daawa as a jehadi operative in 2006. He was chosen for suicide-hit training earlier this year.

Sources say that the chief of the JuD Hafiz Saeed has quoted Hamza Shakoor as an example to other young militants while speaking about the importance of suicide attacks.

A suicide bomb that struck Kabul last month (June, 2008) blew off the gates of the Indian Embassy. The car bomb, which exploded just as two diplomatic vehicles entered the compound, rattled much of Afghanistan's capital. Dozens were killed and a large number of injuries were re

Secular strategies that help terrorists
By Shivaji Sarkar

A serious threat perception has engulfed the country from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Minorityism seems create a perception that the majority has little space in this secular nation.

A mere 100 acre of land for pilgrims to Amarnath was denied because a section of the people in Kashmir Valley could not agree to it. The way Jammu reacted to it was not unexpected. If such denials of just rights continue by the ilk of Mehbooba Mufti’s PDP and Omar Abdullah’s National Conference it may lead to serious consequences.

A sequence of events reveals a disturbing trend and lack of political will to sternly deal with soft and hard terrorism. Withdrawal of land to Amarnath Shrine Board is an instance of soft terrorism. Incidents in Bengaluru, Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Hubli, Varanasi, Jaipur and UP courts expose the real harder and cruel side of terrorism.

It also seems to be a planned move to rock Bengaluru and Ahmedabad for diverting attention from the Amarnath shrine issue. Terror planners have subtle strategies and the politicians are seemingly buckling under it. Mufti and Abdullah have marked communal overtones in their speeches in and outside Parliament. It is strange that despite that some so-called national parties consider them “secular�. Are Mufti and Abdullah in league or coerced by terrorists?

Former Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad in his last speech before resigning mapped out the links of PDP and terror elements. He also was clear enough to suggest their Pakistani, Talibani and West Asia links. It is painful that despite this the new Governor N.N. Vohra chose to withdraw what is due to the pilgrims of Amarnath, apparently for the sake of vote bank politics in the Valley.

It is no secret that pilgrims are treated most shabbily. Even the very basic necessities elude them. The labourers, coolies, ponnywallahs and local traders fleece them. The state government prefers to buckle under them than create proper conditions because that hurts the deep pockets of the locals, who thrive on such exploitation.

The overtone in the entire incident is anything but secular. Unfortunately, political leaders refrain from calling it so. They would like to see it as localised events of the Valley or Jammu forgetting the terror plans to weaken the Indian state, conceptually and physically. The nation is losing it to subtle terror plans, which take shelter in ‘secularism’.

If the terrorists are attacked, arrested or killed, the secular bogey, obviously with the backings of subtle terror planners, raise hue and cry to the extent of tarnishing the image of security forces. The forces often function with their one hand tied and that is a great moral booster for the terrorist and their supporters. Abdullah’s cry for withdrawing land from the security forces should be viewed that way. In any other country, except for tolerant civilised India, he would have been tried for sedition.

These elements forget what Nehru had said about the unity in this diverse country. If this diversity is not respected and unipolarity is created in the society, as has happened in the Kashmir Valley by evicting the Pandits, the basic fibre starts breaking. The Kashmir Valley has started suffering it that is how Ghulam Nabi Azad and Abdullah speak differently.

They also forget the ramifications of such strong-arm methods can lead to. Jammu is burning. It may be only a precursor to what may happen to the rest of the country, if such brazen supporters of terrorism are not contained and brought back to the national fold. The bogey of minorityism is certainly not the panacea for seeking solutions.

Unfortunately during the past few years not a single terror attack has been solved. The minority’s “right first to the national resources� concept has further communalised the budgeting process in plan allocation. This has hurt the sentiments of the people. A secular nation means a government that is equal to all religions. If it is partial to any of the religious groups, it cannot boast of being secular. It also creates feelings, which is certainly not in the interest of unity. If such moves continue and except one all other community continue to suffer it may lead to a volatile situation. The government and political leaders need to sit together to evolve a formula so that terrorism is dealt as such and not equated with a community. If it is not done body fibre of the nation may be under strain leading to an uncontrollable state of affairs.

(The writer is senior political and economic journalist.)

masadi#380:

As a victim of the Partition, I would have been very happy if India had remained undivided. But I changed my view after I read Gunnar Myrdal's 3-volume "Asian Drama" about India. He pointed out that during the Interim Government of 1946-47 when Nehru was the Prime Minister and Liaqat Ali the Finance Minister, every social or economic bill that came for consideration was discussed not on its merit but how if would affect Hindus or Muslims. Thus, ML would veto any legislation for land reforms as it would adversely affect Muslim landlords and also veto any legislation that would help industrialists who were largely Hindus. His prognosis was that if India had remained united, the same division would have continued preventing any kind of economic reforms.

Jammu's Hindu uprising
Kanchan Gupta

August 05, 2008
Jammu is burning. And as of now it appears unlikely that the rage sweeping through the entire province can be doused in the coming days. On Monday, the police, clueless as to how to handle the situation and directed by an inspector general of police who is an outsider, shot at protesters in Samba. They did not shoot to injure or scare away the crowds chanting slogans against Governor N N Vohra and waving the national tricolour. They shot to kill by aiming their guns at the protesters' heads.

The brutal response of the administration and Vohra's inability of to gauge the extent of popular disquiet and outrage have only strengthened the resolve of the protesters to continue with their agitation. The relentless bandh and blockade of highways has been extended by another five days. People continue to defy curfew and army pickets, pouring into the streets in hundreds, something unprecedented in India.

What we are witnessing in Jammu is a Hindu intifada: The young and old, men and women, youth and children are locked in an unequal battle with the police -- and, since Friday, the army -- demanding the immediate revocation of the government order cancelling the transfer of 800 kanals of land to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board. The land was meant for creating temporary facilities for pilgrims who trek to the Amarnath shrine every year, braving inclement weather and jihadi attacks.

It's been more than a month that the Hindus of Jammu have taken to the streets, burning tyres, taunting policemen, braving tear-gas and real bullets, violating curfew and blockading the highway to Srinagar [Images]. The images emanating from Jammu are eerily similar to those that emanated from Gaza and the West Bank during the Palestinian intifada. More tellingly, the tactics that have been adopted by the protesters are those that have often brought the Kashmir valley to a standstill. If you look at the photographs of the Hindu intifada, you will get a sense of how Jammu has decided to give Kashmir a taste of its own medicine -- in this case it is Dum Dum Dawai (a public thrashing).

The details of the land transfer fiasco are well-known. The Congress-Peoples Democratic Party government headed by Ghulam [Images] Nabi Azad had instructed the forest department to transfer the land to the SASB. Within days Muslims in the Kashmir valley, led and instigated by pro-Pakistani separatists, took to the streets, insisting no land should be provided for pilgrim facilities.

The All-Parties Hurriyat Conference spread three canards: First, the transfer amounted to alienation of 'Kashmiri land'; second, it would lead to intrusion of 'Hindu culture' in Muslim Kashmir; and, third, it would cause ecological damage.

Amarnath pilgrims deserve better

The PDP, sensing an opportunity to revive its pro-separatist -- if not brazenly anti-India/anti-Hindu -- image in the run-up to the assembly election in Jammu & Kashmir, joined the protest and subsequently withdrew from the government. To his credit, Azad stood firm and refused to budge from his government's decision, till N N Vohra took over as governor, replacing Lieutenant General S K Sinha (retd).

Vohra, in his capacity as ex-officio chairman of the SASB, wrote a letter to Azad, returning the land and also offering to relinquish the board's task of organising the annual yatra, thus making the pilgrimage to the Amarnath shrine subordinate to the valley's Muslims �ber alle (above all) politics and Delhi's [Images] equally odious politics of Muslim appeasement.

Vohra reportedly sent his letter to Azad at 8.30 pm on June 28. "The news of that abject surrender provoked an explosion of outrage across Jammu," says a senior member of the Amarnath Yatra [Images] Sangharsh Samiti, a broad-based organisation without any political affiliation which is at the forefront of the protest.

"The governor has violated the SASB Act. He cannot act unilaterally. Any decision of the board has to be endorsed by at least five members," says Professor Hari Om, academic and vice-president of the Bharatiya Janata Party's Jammu and Kashmir [Images] unit. "He is also in contempt of the high court which had passed an interim order approving the transfer of 800 kanals of land to the board in Baltal," he adds.

For all his efforts to appease the Muslim protesters in the Kashmir valley by 'returning' the land that had been allotted for Hindu pilgrims, Vohra was unable to save the Congress-PDP government. The PDP pulled out from the ruling alliance on June 28; on July 1, Azad, obviously under mounting pressure from his party bosses in Delhi, reversed the earlier decision.

Images: Pilgrims' progress

Meanwhile, in Jammu there was a spontaneous shutdown on June 30. "I don't recall such a massive bandh in recent years," says a lawyer who has been involved with the protest; he does not wish to be named, fearing harassment by authorities. Neither do the protesters wish to be identified because they fear they will be picked up from their homes by the police who take their instructions from Srinagar.

So, every morning, afternoon, evening and night, students, workers, professionals, senior citizens and housewives take to the streets, engaging the police in dogfights, hurling tear-gas shells back at their tormentors, chasing cops when they are outnumbered, retreating into narrow alleys when the men in uniform re-gather, and then surging out all over again. Their faces masked with handkerchiefs, they hurl stones; their eyes reflecting their rage. Scores have been shot and wounded; three of them have died; a young man was chased across rooftops by the police -- he jumped to his death.

"Each death only makes us more determined. We are not going to be bullied by the valley anymore. Jammu wants a voice of its own. Jammu's Hindus will no longer tolerate oppression by Kashmir's Muslims," says a young protester, still in his teens, from his house in downtown Jammu. His voice has just begun to crack.

The day after the June 30 bandh, Jammu flared up with street marches and protest rallies. The authorities responded by clamping curfew, in an effort to force people to remain indoors, till July 7. Women came out of their homes and dared the police to shoot them. An enduring image of the Hindu intifada is that of an aged woman, a Pandit who was forced out of the valley along with her family and three lakh other Pandits in the early days of jihadi terror, threatening a Kalashnikov-sporting policeman at a curfew picket with her tattered and torn slipper.

On July 7, the Congress-PDP government officially exited office; the next day the Sangharsh Samiti suspended its agitation, giving the governor a fortnight's time to either have the land restored to the SASB or resign from office. "Vohra did neither. He only added fuel to the fire. He has been insensitive and his actions have only served to provoke the protesters," says a senior official in the Jammu administration.

"Years of neglect of Jammu by Kashmir has resulted in what you are seeing today. The people are frustrated. The Pandits have at last found a platform to vent their anger. Jammu has more people than Kashmir, but the lion's share always goes to the valley," says Professor Hari Om.

Jammu province has 37 assembly seats and two Lok Sabha constituencies. The Kashmir valley has 46 assembly seats and elects three Lok Sabha members of Parliament. Of the 37 assembly constituencies in Jammu province, 25 have a Hindu majority population; the remaining 12 have a Muslim majority profile. "Our voice naturally gets drowned," says an advocate who is a member of the Sangharsh Samiti.

The natural beneficiary of the Hindu intifada would be the BJP. It could end up sweeping all the Hindu majority seats in Jammu province and even emerge as the single-largest party in the next assembly. The Muslim vote in the valley would be divided between the National Conference and the PDP. The Congress could get wiped out -- it has little to claim as support in the valley; following the intifada in Jammu, it can't look forward to winning 15 seats in this province as it did in 2002.

This should have set alarm bells ringing at the Congress headquarters in Delhi. Strangely, the party's 'high command' doesn't seem to care. Or so it would seem from the near non-response to the protest.

Vohra and his patrons in Delhi have "clearly underestimated the determination of Jammu's long-suffering Hindus who have had to cope with denial and deprivation for decades as the state government focuses only on the Kashmir valley," the advocate- activist says.

This explains what happened on July 22. Kuldeep Raj Dogra, in his mid-30s, who was participating in a hunger strike at Jammu's Parade Ground, decided to do something tragically dramatic: He consumed poison, stood up to read out a passionately patriotic poem he had penned, faltered and fell dead. "It was his way of registering his protest against Omar Abdullah's speech in Parliament... he was incensed by the National Conference leader's duplicity," says Professor Hari Om.

The police panicked. They forcibly took away Dogra's body to his hometown, Bisnah, 15 km from Jammu, and "tried to cremate it using old tyres, kerosene oil and liquor", according to a Sangharsh Samiti leader. His widow Shilpi tried to prevent the cremation and raised a hue and cry. The police have been accused of "insulting, abusing and assaulting" Shilpi to silence her. But a huge crowd gathered and snatched Dogra's body from the police. It was taken to Jammu and the situation subsequently just went out of control.

Since then, the Hindu intifada has gathered both force and speed. Curfew has been clamped on all of Jammu and Samba. The army has been called out. The governor has been virtually forced to remain confined within the Raj Bhavan by protesters who continue to gather at the gates in large numbers with every passing hour. Vohra's 'eight-point formula', which included 'allowing' the SASB to 'maintain infrastructure during the yatra period', to end the deadlock, has been spurned. The Sangharsh Samiti is adamant that it will settle for nothing less than restoration of the 800 kanals of land to the SASB for Hindu pilgrims.

Just how determined the protesters are can be gauged from the manner in which thousands of them laid siege to the airport after hearing that Farooq Abdullah of the National Conference and PDP President Mehbooba Mufti were flying in. They had to be flown from the airport to Raj Bhavan in a helicopter after the protesters refused to let them through.

Since Friday night, the intifada has escalated and spread to virtually every corner of Jammu province. Protesters, defying curfew, have been relentlessly pouring out into the streets throughout the night, daring policemen and army personnel to shoot them. Two men were shot dead, 35 were injured when the police fired on protesters ransacking the district magistrate's office in Samba. By mid-afternoon on Saturday, the intifada was truly raging in Jammu and beyond.

All trucks headed for Srinagar have been stopped by protesters at Samba and on the Jammu-Pathankot national highway. No trucks are being allowed to enter Jammu from Srinagar. Kashmir's Muslims could yet get to know what it feels like to be at the receiving end of popular fury and mass anger, as opposed to the valley's made-in-Pakistan rage.

Rememeber Chattispura before Clinton visit. Before the nuclear deal and baki further sinking they had to do more killings of Hindus and Sikhs. Kabul Ambesy, Bangaluru and Karnavati bombings are new Chattispura. Abrahmic religions which includes the 19th century one as well practice the most vicious communalism.

The Chittisinghpura massacre refers to the shooting to death of 35 adherents of the religion of Sikhism (called Sikhs) by the Islamic Fundamentalist militant group Lashkar-e-Toiba on March, 2000 , in the Kathua District of the State of Jammu and Kashmir in India.


The killers were disguised in Indian Army fatigues to avoid detection. The massacre took place when the militants opened fire on the villagers, resulting in a large number of deaths. The sole survivor of the massacre was one Nanak Singh Aulakh , who recounted the events to reporters.[1]

The residents were killed by Lashkar-e-Toiba as part of their Islamist campaign in the region. An Lashkar-e-Toiba militant named Sohail Malik of Sialkot, who was arrested in December of the same year, admitted to the involvement of the group and had no regret in perpetrating the anti-Sikh massacre. Malik said he had opened fire because he had been ordered to do so by his commanders. He also said that he knew nothing about the plot to kill the Sikhs until he stood in an orchard where the 35 people were killed.Pakistan Rangers had taught Malik marksmanship and mountain climbing. He infiltrated into India in October 1999, with the equivalent of USD 200 in expense money, in order to participate in the massacre. [2].

Aftermath

The killings of 36 Sikhs was a turning point in the Kashmir issue, where Sikhs had usually been spared from militant violence.

The villagers ensured that the local school was up and running just two weeks after the killings. The massacre created tension and distrust between the Sikh and Muslim residents of the area, but no problems developed at the joint Muslim-Sikh village school.[1]

In 2005, Sikh organizations such as the Bhai Kanahiya Jee Nishkam Seva Society demanded a deeper state inquiry into the details of the massacre[3] and for the inquiry to be made public. The state government ordered an inquiry into the massacre. A day after the inquiry was ordered, NDTV special correspondent Barkha Dutt went to the village.[1]

Clinton Controversy

The massacre coincided with the visit of United States president Bill Clinton to India. In an introduction to a book written by Madeleine Albright titled The Mighty and the Almighty: Reflections on America, God, and World Affairs (2006), he accused "Hindu Militants" of perpetrating the act. This error created a major incident, with both Hindu and Sikh groups expressing outrage at the inaccuracy. Clinton's office did not return calls seeking comment or clarification. In the hours immediately after the massacre in March 2000, the US condemned the killings but refused to accept the Indian government's contention that it was the work of Pakistani Islamist groups. That changed as soon as Clinton's error was exposed. The publishers, Harper Collins routed a correction through Albright's office. In a public statement they acknowledged the mistake.[4]

Page xi of the Mighty and the Almighty contains a reference to Hindu militants that will be deleted in subsequent printings, both in America and in international editions. This error was due to a failure in the fact-checking process.[4]

Mishra Controversy or Communalism of Marxism

The apparent error was aggravated by Clinton's refusal to acknowledge it, and exacerbated by Pankaj Mishra's book Temptations of the West: How to be Modern in India, Pakistan, Tibet and Beyond where he repeated the allegations against Hindus even after the confession of the Lashkar-e-Toiba militants.[5].

[edit] Chittisinghpura massacre in film

The massacre was depicted in the commercial Bollywood film Adharm (unholy) directed by Adeep Singh.

[edit] References

1. ^ a b c Inquiry into Chittisinghpura Massacre comes too late residents say, ndtv.com
2. ^ Lashkar militant admits killing Sikhs in Chittisinghpura,Rediff.com
3. ^ Sikhs want CBI probe into Chittisinghpura Massacre, tribuneindia.com
4. ^ a b Clinton goofs up on J&K killings,Times of India
5. ^ Mishra, Pankaj, Temptations of the West : How to Be Modern in India, Pakistan, Tibet, and Beyond

You all take it easy, I have to get going...

#393 Tahmed sahib while you talk of the Glorious revolution of the White Man in the UK, and diss on your own, let me remind you that while the white man was fighting his own battles of liberation (not as a result of a superior conscience but as a result of a changing economic structure that required just such devolution to undo the old order), he was enslaving a large portion of mankind and denying them habeas corpus and a right to a free elected government. While those struggling against his enslavement were busy with fighting liberation wars to get themselves freedom making every sacrifice you can imagine only to be ignored by you because history is written by the powerful...

Arjun writes to anil "you're wasting your time..."

I think your problem with Anil is that he showed some genuine concern for Pakistan, while your posts, while informative, are done for the purpose of soothing your bigotry. I think the people have moved past your kind of "reasoning" towards more of the Anil kind....even though he misses the mark most of the time and at times his reasoning masks the objectives of your type of "reasoning" even though he might not realize it: i.e. his claim that the keyboard has liberated the average joe....

Tahmed sahib, once again your reply is devoid of substance yet you talk of "discussion". I know you (and possibly) your friend Hamid, want me to return to my previous ways caused by frustration by just these kinds of "nonsense" responses. I for one understand that the Church of WMW and your beliefs keep you from benefitting from any and every discussion involving the global power structure dominated by the white man. That is ok, others might benefit from these posts of mine.

Anil sahib,

I think people know what the solutions are, what keeps them from trying them are the vested interests and power dynamics of our social structure. All economic analysis is devoid of substance as solution, if it ignores these... Thank you for showing concern...

majumdar#367:

Excellent, succinct presentation.

#394 Posted by anil on August 5, 2008 6:52:59 am

you're wasting your time...did you read capt clueless' interactions from 2005 I posted below...you tried to show him the light but the capacity of the paki mind to delude itself is unlimited..