The Tribal and I

Re: # 11

I partly agree with your analysis. I often feel that cultural relativism as an ideology is relevant only for anthropological perspective and in the field of policy-planning one often needs to get past this idea. This was in fact the general thesis behind my article on the limitations in transporting the concept of relativism beyond the ambit of the academic world.

Here i feel i should point out that being cultural relativist dose not necessarily entails being against scientific advancements. All it really challenges is the neo-liberal development model, whereby sudden transformation are made with minimal local population interaction. Such development i feel often have a damaging effect on the natives social sphere. case in point being the Gawadar project. Also, cultural relativists raise their eyebrows(they really cant do much other than that) 'reform' project being pushed on societies working on a model different from the western-liberal model. By reform projects i mean educational 'reform' project, judicial reform project or administrative reforms. These projects often undertaken singularly and not an overarching reform project, often seriously disturb 'local' social systems. So cultural relativism really just question foreign forces imposing these reforms and not self-initiated programs.

Your article is something I would say I totally relate to..!!

Ameem Lufti...

What British have imposed on Indians, which is harmful? Arabisation/Islamisation was always harmful for India, and due to internal conflicts within India states, it grew. Islam has some savage method to grow (Kashmir inquisition). Anyhow, after Brits arrived, Indians grew in several fields with the help of Brits - be it in education, industry, law, civil and military administration.

How long do you want to adopt this notion of cultural relativism and what purpose does it solve?

It is almost impossible to isolate any culture or nation from rest of the world. Cultural relativism can be used to ignore past mistakes, though you run the risk of not learning from them, but it can not be used to isolate nations or cultures forever. Because it is simply not possible.

It was not possible for us to remain monkies for ever. It is not possible for anybody to remain tribal of any sorts forever. Change is not that we are imposing on ourselves, it is something that nature imposes on us.

When world becomes a global village you can not go inside a tube-well and claim that you will remain there for-ever. You will have to come out of it for more than one reason. There will be several factors that will force you to do it.

So the question is how long do you want to delay and for what purpose. There are two things, first you know some idea is better than other but you can not prove it for the time being then you have right to differ and find ways to prove it. Second, you run out of ideas and are internally convinced that your idea is not better than the otehr idea, in this case you should accept it and move in the direction of that other idea.

When you say primitive, you know that definitely you can find more things wrong or irrational in tribal system than in the other system. You also know that the other system is open for change and can accomodate lot many different ideas. So the delay is not for any good, but only a non-action.

Re: # 6 HP.... I like they way put forward real situation. It is complex and yes democracy mean differet things to different people. Basically its way of protest to say things are not fine. When elections are over and rulers face of governing start problems. To govern is very difficult only statesman can govern and lead to some thing good. Many people have wrong idea of things on ground. It is said by great famous Arab professor, It is impossible to herd ships sitting on Camel.
I agree your observation that T.Taliban Pakistan can come near cities but hard to get support in "established" areas. Tribal who have come to city side have escaped "tribal areas" and they do not want live in tribal society. Only left , educated sitting in usa support TTP and generally they do not want to involved as if they really any thing usa govt may really send they may back to pakistan, ditters revolutionary type people. TTP is strong and now but with time if govt can face them squarely they will fade and mellow.
Real problem is not tribal but over long term is B.Stan. As they want to have have new arrangement, they want like "Kurdish" independent that can be real problem. As they become that day they can be Rich. Presently gas is sent and sold at about $3/ million BTU while world price is between $7 to $10 per million BTU. I have met B.Educated people they say why be poor pakistani but rich Balochi as Dubai. As mr. Bugti is fugitive and A.Stan and supported by Afghan GOVT which can not happen with objection from USA. And B.Stan has sea coast , is not landlocked and 42% of mass of country. I wonder if USA is sofdtly supporting BLA and kinds. If usa decides today country can implode with Balochistan as a catalyst. President and PM can tell usa softly to stop "playing" in B.Stan.

did Brits create the Ummah! You know the one that causes the British Pakistani dudes to blow themselves up for the alleged atrocities against the Palestinians?

Predator or pakis

The poor tribals of fata are in a bad situation. In the name of paki authority, teh tribvals are being bombed and strafed by the paki airforce. They would have been better of if the paki govt did not have such fancy notions of soverognity and leave the tribals to teh predators. Such attacks are more precise, and are clearly targeted.

The pak military are ill trained for battle, they are used to ruling over the civilians and naturally, the bombs are missing targets and more of women and children are killed compared to what the US and nato would have done.

It will be good for concerned of teh paki troops leave the fata and tribals are dealt with by the Us forces.

As the military of the islamic republic of pakistan attack theior own in the tribal areas with bombers and helicopter gunships, this is what the foreign minister of pakistan had to say. It is interesting to note that no pakistani dares to point out the hypocrisy of the actions.

FM condemns use of force in Kashmir


ISLAMABAD, Aug 11: Expressing his grief over the murder of APHC leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said on Monday that Pakistan called for immediate steps to end violence against Kashmiris.

In a statement issued here, he said: “The government of Pakistan condemns the excessive and unwarranted use of force against the people of Indian Occupied Kashmir.�

#4 Posted by ameem
“We the liberalized portions of the population have a very narrow and single tracked model of modernity and we feel that we would be at the zenith if it wasn’t for these undeveloped primitives tribal.�

A classic straw man argument! I doubt there is any section in the Pakistani society, which believes that the tribes are holding them back. They may think that some development in the tribal areas is required but in reality the most liberalized 0.01% of the population are still beholden to the tribal cultural influences. In fact, the dilemma is that the liberals in Pakistan are at best moderates or slightly to the left of the fanatics. The Baloch or Sindhi or even the Punjabis who promote secularism, the rule of law and democracy in Pakistan are barely above their own tribal affiliations. Now I am not using the tribal affiliations literally.

The support of democracy in Pakistan is a method to oppose the army rule or the army dictatorship. The support of democracy is not meant to bring in the democracy in the country. It is only to present an alternate which could help some groups that are not entirely satisfied with the army rule or don’t have the share in governance they covet.

The Baloch are the most vociferous supporters of the democracy and secularism but when they get the power in their province, they too hesitate to remove the tribal hierarchy in their own backyard. The situation in Pakistan is much more complex than just a few liberalized portions of the society. However, whatever progress Pakistan makes towards the democracy is positive. It is a time consuming process but better than any other alternate available.

Interesting but somewhat false dilemma!

“My friend was right, relativism extended to the maximum results in complete paralysis. A pure relativist can not be a party to any campaign for social or cultural change.�
So the question really is how can we strike a perfect balance between the two? How can we be supporters of social change without being social architects?�

I am not sure cultural relativism has some purity in it. There are differing opinions and the strict application is not about some social or cultural processes that are subject to evolution. Even the use of a purely entertainment tool such as radio in a tribal culture is a part of the evolution. That does not necessary require a social engineering on a collective or individual basis but the change in the method of just being entertained promotes the evolutionary process.

Anthropologists approach cultural relativism as a means to understand the cultures and to avoid looking at the different cultures from the Western glasses. Therefore, the debate in the specific Pakistani or the Pashtoon tribal background is a little superfluous and perhaps is not applicable.

“Specifically, in terms of Pakistan, a post-colonial nation state in which the majority of the population adheres to a sense of cultural modality quite distinct from the liberalised world, how can we advocate any change in these alternate cultures while at the same time not falling into the 'oriental' trap of failing to be culturally relative?�

The first question is whether the Pakistanis are in general cultural relativist or even purely cultural relativist. If they are, then we have a serious issue of ‘the oriental trap of failing to be culturally relative’.

I am not sure that even the tribes refuse any social engineering. So why do you think it is a problem.
Since you have not provided the answer in your article, let us hear it from you now to discuss the issue, which seems to be the purpose of this article.

Krbhatti:

Even the British rule managed to establish a complete hegemony and even during the British rule the cultural exchanges did go both ways (British fascination with the ideas of mysticism and the whole Edward said argument).

Also, it was never my aim to present the ideas of 'development' under which the tribal are being dealt with, as inherently sinister. The point was to argue that we too have these ideas of progress and development. We the liberalized portions of the population have a very narrow and single tracked model of modernity and we feel that we would be at the zenith if it wasn’t for these undeveloped primitives tribal. The metaphor surrounding them is always one in which it seems that sat around at the train stop watching the train of modernity to leave and now with the help of the 'liberalized' portions they must somehow try to catch the train.

Jayp: firstly, pashtoons do not account for all the tribal, even though i must admit that post 9/11 it is tribal has almost become synonymous with pashtoons. In terms of Pakistan alone there is a large population of balouchs who have also been coined as tribals. Unlike, the pashtoons they have remained secular throughout, so no not all tribal are killing machines. Also i don’t understand your point of view, are you trying to say that there were no pashtoon before 47? You make it seem like the tribal are cyborgs of some sorts, with no culture and values and have been created by the Pakistan army to do its dirty work.

Thousands flee Bajaur area



By Anwarullah Khan


KHAR, Aug 10: Air force planes and Cobra helicopters bombed Lowi Sam and other areas of Bajaur Agency on Sunday, forcing thousands of people to leave their homes for safe places.

Witnesses said seven people were killed and dozens of houses were damaged in Lowi Sam and adjacent localities, including Banda Rashakai, Tang Khata and Charmang, while militants started moving towards Khar, the regional headquarters.

Helicopters continued heavy shelling till late in the evening.
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As the tribals flee from the islamic bombs dropped from the helicopters and aircraft by the fellow islamic soldiers of teh islamic country, they should be cursing teh stupidity of their forefathers who fought in kashmir. The hindu troops have never used this kind of methods on the enemy muslims.

As the paki PM assures full support for the human rights of kasmir muslims, he was ordering the bombing of paki muslims.

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Interesting article...

Author wrote that:

"Specifically, in terms of Pakistan, a post-colonial nation state in which the majority of the population adheres to a sense of cultural modality quite distinct from the liberalised world, how can we advocate any change in these alternate cultures while at the same time not falling into the 'oriental' trap of failing to be culturally relative?"

Well as far as acadamic discussion is concerned, this raises quite an interesting questiions regarding the type of orientalism that was practiced by the western authors, acadamics and gora saab bahadurs in sub continent. As rightly ponited out in the start of the article that this had a very basic desire of ruling (a political motive) as its basis, I think it would be quite another thing and wrong thing to raise the question of cultural relativism in post independent scenario.

The cultural exchange in post colonial era is the cultural exchange that is always a contineous process rather than the type of cultural hegemony that was at the root of gora and western orientalism, and this was going on before colonization and will keep on going. Now it is not the process of imposing cultural hegemony in the garb of orientalism but the both ways assimilation/exchange of multiple cultures in the vicinity of each other that takes a natural course of actions whenever two distinct cultures are placed together.

The infleuences of islamic and hindu cultures on each others is one example of it and that is what is actually going on between pashtoon vs non pahtoon cultures. As far as the changes in the name of development are concerned, again they do not have the gora notions of ruling at its root but stem from the genuine desire on parts of the constituent elements to move ahead with the changing circumstances....