It's Politics Uber Alles In Kashmir ..... And India

#242 tahmed32

[i was told that there is one indian soldier for every 3 civilians in kashmir!!]

If it was up to me, it would be 5 Indians from all the Indian states for each civilian in kashmir.

[as for the two crimes you imply kashmiris have - i.e. love of their land and of their religion of islam. This is exactly the mindset that causes kashmiris to have nothing to do with india.]

Indians don't want these ungrateful mofos either. They can take their mindset and start walking towards Mecca right now.

Get out!! RIGHT NOW!!

pinku #239 i have talked to indian kashmiris. what i hear is "independence" and freedom - people like to rule themselves. they dont want to be ruled by a majority that has made a hindu chauvinist party a mainstream part in the country. i was told that there is one indian soldier for every 3 civilians in kashmir!!

as for the two crimes you imply kashmiris have - i.e. love of their land and of their religion of islam. This is exactly the mindset that causes kashmiris to have nothing to do with india.

#238 imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. calling me an idiot because i called you an idiot...

(see, even i can be flattered into giving you a charity post!)

That was great comment by tahmed32, I didn't know that all Islamic states get some extra self-esteem for their people compared to non-islamic ones:-) All this thanks to Islam.

Re #236 Posted by tahmed32
But they are ok to live in the same world that I live in or not??? Or they have problem with that as well?

low self esteem? you mean, just me or all Indians? So they want to upgrade their self-esteem by leaving India?? And who will give them that extra self-esteem? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia or Hurriyat or Taliban?


Better talk to them to know why they want to separate from India and then let us know, don't make assumptions. If you hear "land" and "Islam" too many times don't be surprised:-)

#236 tahmed32

[er...problem in kashmir is kashmiris dont wish to live in the same country with you.]

No, idiot, only MUSLIM kashmiris don't want to live in the same country as us. Hindu Kashmiris (those that have not been terrorised away) still DO WANT to live in the same country as us.

Painting this as a Kashmiri problem, as opposed to a MUSLIM problem, is typical of the lying nature of the Muslim ummah.

#234 ajeya: must i remind you that my idiot-time quota for you is over for 2008?

#235 er...problem in kashmir is kashmiris dont wish to live in the same country with you.

i know that is hard to handle when you already suffer from low-self esteem...

To put it bluntly (if my other remarks were not blunt enough):


If identity (of being muslim) creates political problems, whether in Kashmir or anywhere else, then it is Islam that creates those problems...And in that case Islam is at the root of problems.



And if you don't understand it as a muslim then of course you are not unbiased and/or are not that much inclined to rationality.

If you don't understand it as a non-muslim, you are simply irrational (You didn't have an ego attached to Islam so it is not that which is preventing you from seeing the reason). Some of you may be doing it to show your pseudo modesty without knowing that it is not at all modest to support lies or to ignore truths when life of many people is at stake.

#225 tahmed32

[indeed ironically, it is individuals lacking such strong roots in their own heritage and culture who have a need to put down other cultures. ]

Criticizing Islam and it's evils is not criticizing a "culture and heritage". Pakiland has a different "culture and heritage" than Morocco or Turkey, but both are infected with Islam.

Tahmed is all swelled up like a weathercock - the deflation will take some time. The "popular democratic movement" only succeeded because the very large component of jihadi sympathizers in Paki society were hell-bent against Mushu-baba. Mushu-baba came to power with their help. But he bit the jihadi hand that fed him, and now the US feels that propping him up any more would be counterproductive. A new "democratic" puppet government would be more useful. Until such time as when another strongman will be required to do their bidding.

Mushy probably feels that this is a good way to get off the tiger without being eaten up, and the US will now help him "settle" in the future.

Tahmed would do well to quit waxing eloquent on such topics as "human brotherhood", "universal peace" and the "message of islam". Because he won't like others quoting these back to him later.

test

I hope my Indian Muslim friends are reading this: they are supporting Umma and not merely self-determination in Kashmir. I still think that India can do better without such people.

url:http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/18amar4.htm

Hurriyat wants UN peacekeeping troops in Kashmir

Krishnakumar P and Mukhtar Ahmad in Srinagar | August 18, 2008 17:34 IST

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, chairman of the hardline faction of the All Party Hurriyat Conference, on Tuesday demanded the immediate withdrawal of security forces from the Kashmir Valley.

Addressing a mammoth gathering of over 1,00,000 people at Srinagar's [Images] Tourists Reception Centre Grounds along with fellow leaders Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, Shabbir Shah and Yasin Malik, Geelani laid down three immediate demands: The withdrawal of security forces from Kashmir, the continuation of the peaceful agitation for right to self-determination and the unity of the Muslim Ummah.

The Amarnath Row

The Hurriyat, which had announced a three-day suspension of its agitation from Tuesday, changed its decision and declared that the complete shutdown in the valley will continue.

The Hurriyat leaders also called off their planned march to the United Nations Military Observers Group office. "Either we all go, or nobody goes. Since the security forces won't allow all of us, we will not go to the United Nations office today," Yasin Malik said.

Kashmir: Thousands take part in Hurriyat rally

"The United Nations must send its peacekeeping troops to ensure the safety of the people both in the Valley and Jammu," he said, adding that the Valley will take the Muslims of Jammu along with them in their fight for self-determination.

"But at the same time, we also assure that we will safeguard the lives, property, religious places and the honour of the minority in the Valley," he said.

'Right thinking' people must bring peace to Valley: PM

Geelani, who was the last speaker, also criticised General Pervez Musharraf [Images], who had stepped down as Pakistan President, moments before his speech began.

"Musharraf had destroyed both Pakistan and Kashmir. Now he has had to step down. The people of Pakistan have rejected him. We take this opportunity to urge the new establishment in Pakistan to change its policy towards Kashmir," he said.

'Now, people are leading the leaders'

Upping the separatism rhetoric, Geelani said, "Pakistan was created for Islam and must continue to safeguard the interests of Islam.

"Likewise, here in Kashmir, nationalism will not work, the American world order will not work. Only Islam unites us. We have religious affiliations with Pakistan and we will continue to remain affiliated with that country," he added.

Hamid Mir says Musharraf was about to solve Kashmir issue.[from today's rediff.com]

How Musharraf missed the Nobel Peace Prize

August 18, 2008


Pervez Musharraf is still living in a fool's paradise. He resigned as Pakistan's president not out of any guilt but he resigned under political pressure. Just a few minutes before his speech on Monday he told one of his close friends that the coalition partners will start fighting with each other very soon, there will be more political instability in his absence, people will come out on the roads in the next six months and they will demand, 'come back Musharraf'. That is the reason Musharraf is not going out of Pakistan. He will stay in Pakistan under heavy security and he will wait for the people to call him back.

He is badly mistaken. The people of Pakistan had already rejected him and his policies on February 18. They were sick of him and that was why even US President George W Bush [Images] abandoned him in his last days. but Musharraf still thinks that Pakistan cannot survive without him. He claimed in his Monday's speech that Pakistan was about to be declared a terrorist state in 1999 but he rescued Pakistan and gave it a new identity.

He never mentioned Kargil [Images] which gave a bad name to Pakistan, he never mentioned anything about the judicial crisis he created in 2007 and he never mentioned anything about the assassination of Pakistan People's Party leader Benazir Bhutto [Images]. Her death started Musharraf's downfall. His government lost its writ for at least one week after Benazir's assassination. There was violence everywhere and the government evaporated. That was the time when the Army decided to stay away from Musharraf to save its credibility, and that was how Musharraf lost his power.

Benazir Bhutto's assassination was also a big blow to the peace process in South Asia.

Don't humiliate Musharraf, US tells Pakistan

President Pervez Musharraf [Images] and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] had agreed on an "out of the box "solution to the Kashmir dispute after many rounds of direct and indirect talks. They decided in 2006 to resolve the Kashmir dispute latest by the end of 2007. US President George W Bush was also on board with them. Both the leaders were hoping for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2008 but now they have missed the chance.

Musharraf is no more in a position to sell an "out of the box" solution to the Kashmir dispute. Manmohan Singh will also face difficulties from the Indian parliament for the approval of an "out of the box" solution to Kashmir after the recent violence in Jammu and Kashmir [Images].

Musharraf and Manmohan Singh first met during the UN Summit in New York when the Indian prime minister called on the Pakistani president at his hotel in New York on September 24, 2004. It was an extremely pleasant encounter. Musharraf met Manmohan Singh again on April 18, 2005, during a one-day cricket match between India and Pakistan in Delhi [Images]. India lost the match but Musharraf and Manmohan Singh decided that they will find a Kashmir solution in which no side will be a loser but all will be winners.

After a few months they had another dinner on September 14, 2005, in New York, during the UN General Assembly. Musharraf proposed demilitarisation of Jammu and Kashmir, self-governance and joint management mechanism of the troubled valley. Initially Manmohan Singh raised many objections but later on both of them decided to continue their efforts for reaching on an "out of the box" solution without compromising the stated positions of their governments.

Indian National Security Adviser MK Narayanan and Pakistani National Security adviser Tariq Aziz continued their quite diplomacy in Dubai to discuss some more details. The Indian side convinced the People's Democratic Party's pro-Delhi leader Mehbooba Mufti and the Pakistani side took into confidence separatist Kashmiri leaders Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Yasin Malik for resolving the Kashmir dispute in the year 2007. The details of the great Kashmir solution were finalised in June 2006.

Musharraf wanted Manmohan Singh to visit Pakistan in July 2006 but the Indian prime minister was looking for a politically suitable opportunity to break the ice. Musharraf sent a message to Benazir Bhutto that the Kashmir problem will be resolved soon and she will have to support an "out of the box" solution.

Unfortunately 2006 was wasted and 2007 began. That was the year Musharraf started committing suicidal blunders. He sacked and arrested a sitting Chief Justice of Pakistan. Lawyers and civil society came out on the streets against him. He lost a legal battle in the Supreme Court of Pakistan on July 20, 2007, and Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry was reinstated.

Musharraf never digested this legal defeat. He struck a deal with exiled opposition leader Benazir Bhutto with the help of the USA and the UK. Musharraf agreed to take off his Army uniform and hold elections. Benazir Bhutto agreed to support the war against terrorism in return for free and fair elections. Benazir returned to Pakistan in October but there was a lot of trust deficit between her and Musharraf. She was not ready to take a clear position against the Chief Jutice. An agitated Musharraf imposed emergency in Pakistan on November 3, 2007, mainly against the Supreme Court and "rebel media".

Benazir Bhutto declared this emergency as martial law and announced that she was stopping her dialogue with Musharraf. Elections were announced on January 8, 2008, but Benazir Bhutto suspected rigging and started making noises against it. She had a long meeting with the director general of ISI, Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, on the night of December 26, 2008. Taj warned her about some security threats and suggested she abandon her election campaign. Benazir Bhutto refused. The next day she was assassinated in Rawalpindi.

This assassination actually marked the political death of Musharraf. He lost his popularity in Pakistan completely. He delayed elections for one month but his rigging plans failed because the Army decided to stay away from politics. Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kyani even ordered the ISI not to support any political party in the election. The neutral role of the Army was a big blow to Musharraf. His supporters lost with big margins. The February 18 election was a clear vote of no-confidence by Pakistani voters against Musharraf, but he never accepted his defeat. He was not happy with the Army Chief. He was in a position to sack the Army Chief as the supreme commander of the armed forces but he was aware that the Army could defy his orders, like he defied the orders of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in 1999 as Army chief. He decided to wait for an appropriate time to hit both the Army chief and the new coalition government.

Musharraf was sure that only he could resolve the Kashmir dispute, he was sure that only he has the guts to pave the way for the recognition of Israel by Pakistan. He was also sure that the Pakistan Army [Images] needs him despite the fact that he was no more in uniform. He thought that only he could negotiate more and more military aid from the US. He was sure that he will catch Osama bin Laden soon and the West will force the new coalition government to accept him as President for the next five years. Musharraf delayed the government-making process in Pakistan for more than one month. He tried to make deals with PPP leader Asif Ali Zardari and Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz chief Nawaz Sharif through top US diplomats but he failed. Musharraf is still popular in Western capitals but he is the most unpopular human being in Pakistan.

The new coalition sent him messages to resign but Musharraf threatened to use his constitutional powers. His rough attitude created problems, and finally the coalition leaders decided to impeach him. All his old buddies have ditched him. The US and the UK were not in a position to help him. They requested the new coalition to provide a safe passage to Musharraf instead of impeaching him. He has lost everything. All his friends want him to say goodbye.

Musharraf ruled Pakistan for more than eight years but he never ruled the hearts and minds of his people like a true leader because he never came to power through the ballot but through the bullet. He was definitely in a position to become a real peace-maker with the help of Manmohan Singh and Benazir Bhutto in 2007 but he missed this golden chance. He missed 2007 because he created a political turmoil in Pakistan by attacking the judiciary. He also missed a chance to win the Nobel Peace Prize along with Manmohan Singh due to his self-righteousness. He has missed everything now. He will soon realise that there is no use in staying on in Pakistan and ultimately he will leave the country because it's difficult for him to face the common people. He will also miss Pakistan very soon but the people of Pakistan will not miss him.

Musharraf was definitely the last military dictator of Pakistan; many people will remember him not only as a dictator but also as a traitor who broke the constitution of Pakistan not once but twice.

Guest Columns

Re #207 Posted by dost_mittar on August 18, 2008 4:44:18 am

dost mittar

You said:
[[
Islam has a strong political element in it but to most devout muslims, their religion means its five pillars which are devoid of any political content.
]]

Most of devout muslims??? Devout to what??

Do you know what the first pillar is?
There is no God but Allaha and Muhammad is his messenger.

And now what Messenger says??? All that is in Kuran.

So if you tell about these five pillars of Islam to an Islamist (there are more than you can imagine and you can find the Islamists when you do some proper talking not by praising Islam in front of them), he won't give even 10 percent importance to the rest of them.

After first pillar (a very political statement that starts with negative tone of saying "no god but Allaha", a fairly stupid comment if you pretend to be an intellectual), what you have is Kuran.

Kuran itself doesn't summarize five pillars of Islam, it was an attempt to make things more meaningful given the number and kind of things Kuran says. It was a good attempt, but the very first pillar is the political basis of Islam.

Now on what kind of muslims you have met:
=========================================

I am from a locality where we have lots of muslims so I know both good muslims, bad muslims and everything in between. Even here on chowk we are talking with muslims, but highly educated ones. If you have not seen devout muslims, who are fanatics than probably you have not seen many muslims. The subji-wala (in those days around 35 year old) that I used to interact with was a devout muslim and he was a good hearted man, but his father was more devout than him and used to consider hindus dirty humans (I don't know about his boys as to what they started thinking about different muslims).

If you create some troublesome questions the way I did earlier and ask muslims to respond. What you will find is that utterly poor muslims are more open minded while middle class muslims are less open minded and highly educated ones are again more open-minded.

You should check some Islamic scholars in Islamic states and see what they say to their musilms brothers, check the devoutness of these muslims and then count the number of such scholars and think how many devout muslims follw them.

You are making wrong guesses by checking ultra poors. A poor in south-asian nations hardly has an option to follow anything, whether it is muslim or a hindu poor. Check middle class people.

Lastly, nobody is pure evil, all those Islamists are victim of the political nature of Islam, they are not hijacking Islam. Islams hijacks them. If an ideology can be hijcaked so comprehensively for something so wrong then that ideology is anyway wrong or not needed.

Bye Mush...


Hie Kaytoe Tahmed, TNI,

TNI will not be published on lulu.com any more, that appears for sure...unless he doubles the amount payable (and pays it prompltly).

Tahmed writes "With regard to your kind offer to translate, what exactly is this mysterious form of worship that you find embedded in my posts: "..now you can return to your white man worship."? Is this white man Massa Mills, perchance, whose humble messenger you are? "

Tahmed sahib, thanks for the reply and revealing to us the moral confusion that you suffer from. On the one hand you support every official lie and distraction offered by those whose entire structure of world governance is based on white supremacy and on the other hand when exposed you quickly retract...that can be a slight positive were it not for your spineless hypocrisy. Mills an anti establishment, anti white man supremacy intellectual has nothing to do with white man worship, I merely use his ideas that are well established to clarify the bs of the white man's system, and have never used his work as stand alone authority just because he happened to be white, unlike you who will take stands all across the board just so long as nothing bad is reflected on the official BS of the white man...

Have a good day, and return to the WMW you partake in on these boards.....

TNI Masadi