It's Politics Uber Alles In Kashmir ..... And India

No more comments on Kashmir???

It seems easy to ignore truths and hide behind your ego, but you hardly lived your life then. It was more of an illusion.

Better face the truth in this life and live a truthful life, because you may not get a second life to understand reality of this world. And even if you do get a chance, you may not be able to live the moment of truth that is passing now.


Remember---

Truth alone triumphs because there is no way to defeat a truth, you can only defeat your own mind

Cobra, you need to think again. I used to think that way; the violence around the Amarnath yatra and some of the "secular" reaction to it, including this article, is probably responsible for changing my mind. Today I feel that people who deny their Hindu fellow Kashmiris the right to their homes and deny other human beings the right to toilet facilities have lost their humanity, and giving in to them would be seen as a victory for violence. It is much easier to give in here, but where does it stop? This is a war we have to wage. I feel like a fake saying it from the safety of my home, but India is mine in a way no other country can ever be.

Free Kashmir that is the only solution.

Bihar from where GOI got Iron, Coal and other minerals gets Rs.600 per capita per year loan and these scumBaigs get grant ie gift of Rs. 30K per shantic kashmiri per year. Because of these testicular type fukhat ka khane wale India has to spend Billions of $s on defense.


We need to move all Bhayyas from Mumbai into Srinagar. Sanatani I think you are in India so would you please start the movement for Kumbha Mela at Dal lake.

Re: # 252
Satya....
This terrorist leader (Gillani) gathered all these at the expense of Pundits. Most of the moslems were illiterate and poors. Pundits used to be progressive and rich one. Using Islam/Jihad, they have captured properties of pundits. Now, even if USA do not allow this scoyundrel to touch their land, GoI provides health facility in top Mumbai Hospitals.

I will repeat ad nauseaum the problem is not Muslims it is Islam.

We need to do something about it and that something is deislamisation. Exactly what the choice Muslais gave to Hindus must be returned leave Islam or Die even expulsion is not an option.

Santani

Dost,

You should have written about Rs. 10K grant per capita from GOI. Kashmiri Shantic folks must have stole Jammu's and Ladakh's share. So I feel Kashmiri Shantic folks ate rs. 30K per year per Kashmiri shantic capita for six decades. No wonder Bihar who gets loan of Rs. 600 per capita per year is in such dire state. One crore Biharis need to be settled around Dal lake. Mind that grant is gift

Yet another Shantic draculla. 10 Million DeshPremi Indians need to have long march of Mao type and settle in Kashmir valley. Next Kumbh Mela needs to be held at Dal Lake Srinanagr.

====

IN July 2001, the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi hosted a reception for President General Pervez Musharraf, who was then on his way to Agra for his summit meeting with Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee. In the middle of the genteel gathering, a venomous argument broke out between Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the Imam of the historic Jama Masjid in Delhi, and Syed Ali Shah Geelani, perhaps the most visible figure of the Islamist Far Right in Jammu and Kashmir. The debate, which began over Bukhari's claim that the interests of Indian Muslims were at stake in Jammu and Kashmir, ended emphatically. "Kashmir will become a part of Pakistan," Geelani declaimed, "I am a Pakistani."

Not, it seems, when it comes to taking a favour or two from the Indian state. On April 21, Geelani swore out an affidavit before Daljit Singh, the Sub-Divisional Magistrate in charge of the Karol Bagh area of New Delhi, proclaiming that he was a "Senior Citizen of India." The affidavit, which also recorded his date of birth and the address of his home in the upmarket Malviya Nagar area, was filed in order to obtain discounts offered by Indian Airlines Ltd. for senior citizens. The intelligence officials who trail the Jamaat-e-Islami leader were delighted, and promptly leaked copies of the document to journalists in New Delhi.

A cheap shot? The affidavit illustrates, if nothing else, the opportunism of the most hardline figure in the secessionist All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC). Geelani has, over the years, repeatedly called for boycotts of elections in Jammu and Kashmir. He, however, continues to draw a pension of Rs.7,100 a month due to him as a two-time member of the State's Legislative Assembly. The veteran politician had, at that time, no qualms about taking office bound by the Indian Constitution. Indeed, Geelani, like other Muslim United Front MLAs elected in 1987, stayed in office until late 1989, hesitant about joining the early armed struggle in the State. None of Geelani's children joined the jehad he energetically advocated all families in Jammu and Kashmir to contribute their sons to.

Geelani's relationship with the Indian state has continued to be ambiguous. After his arrest last year, under the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act, he was shifted to the Birsa Munda prison in Ranchi, Jharkhand. The prison cell he was housed in was a two-room block custom-built to house former Bihar Chief Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav. The closest thing to a five-star accommodation available in the Indian prison system, Geelani's accommodation was in stark contrast to that given to most other prisoners from Jammu and Kashmir.

Early this year, a tumour in Geelani's kidney was found to be malignant. He was promptly flown to Mumbai from Ranchi, on the Jammu and Kashmir government's official twin-engine Beechcraft. A personal doctor flew on the plane from Srinagar, and was in attendance at the luxury suite made available to Geelani at the Tata Memorial Hospital, a premier cancer-care facility. On his return to Srinagar, however, he complained about poor prison conditions and healthcare, perhaps an effort to shore up his legitimacy with his understandably sceptical constituency.

The circumstances of Geelani's release, like those of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front leader Yasin Malik, remain somewhat opaque. The Public Safety Act order issued on June 9, 2002 specified that Geelani be imprisoned for two years. The Act allows for the parole of prisoners for a specified period and on specific grounds. The order granting Geelani parole cites no specific reasons for his release, nor mandates the conditions that he must adhere to during his parole period. The Jamaat-e-Islami leader has been politically active since his return to the State, a violation of the normal parole conditions. Once again, the state has been inexplicably generous to one of its most hostile enemies.

Meanwhile, Income Tax proceedings initiated against Geelani last year appear to have fallen into limbo. Income Tax officials who raided Geelani's home and those of his immediate family members found Rs.10.25 lakhs in cash, another $10,000, vouchers for recently purchased jewellery and documents relating to the purchase of two new homes in an upmarket neighbourhood in Srinagar. Geelani employed 14 servants at a monthly salary of Rs.2,000 each, an expense which in itself exceeded his disclosed monthly income of Rs.17,100. If the cases collapse, it will just be the last in a long string of hawala and income tax charges brought against the politician, which were subsequently withdrawn for no apparent reason.

Soldiers who fight wars, it is said, best understand the value of peace. Geelani has never fought in the campaign that has cost the lives of thousands of Hizbul Mujahideen cadre, the organisation he patronises. In late April, Hizbul Mujahideen cadre, allied to the recently assassinated pro-peace leader Majid Dar, raided their organisation's head office in Islamabad. Office staff loyal to Geelani's most loyal follower, Hizbul Mujahideen supreme commander Mohammad Yusuf Shah, was driven out. The dissidents briefly took possession of Rs.1.37 crores in cash, along with eight cars, before Pakistani intelligence officials stepped in and sealed the building.

In his own ranks, Geelani seems to have few friends left. That, oddly enough, cannot be said of the state that he so bitterly opposes.

Nearly 2 lakhs court arrest for shrine land
www.earlytimes.in
8/18/2008 10:39:24 PM


Early Times Reporter
Jammu | Aug 18

It was a quick and grim reminder of Indian freedom movement today when several thousands people –rather few lakhs –marched to the Police several stations across the region and offered their arrests in a gesture of strongest protest against the government for its inability to restore 800 kanals of forest land at Baltal to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board.
The first phase of the ‘Jail Bharo Andolan’ launched by Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti and supported by over three dozen other organizations, saw a sea of humanity pouring into various Police Stations to offer their arrests. Though the situation was tough for the Police to handle but no curfew or other restrictions had been imposed to curb the movement of agitators.
Though today it was the turn of men to court their arrests but thousands of women and children also marched to the Police Stations. The women folk said that they were pained over the situation and were in no mood to wait till their turn. “Although woman folk was not asked to participate in today's Jail Bharo Andolan, still more than 10,000 women offered themselves for arrest. Women would offer themselves for court arrest on August 19 followed by programme of court arrest of children on August 20�, said a Samiti spokesman.
Strength in the court arrest march was unprecedented but an exact figure of those who courted their arrests could not be worked out. The Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti claimed that more than three lakh people in all districts of Jammu region courted arrests. Barring a couple of Police Stations, no other Police officer could confirm the exact number of protestors who reached their respective jurisdiction. However, computation reports as gathered by our reporters in the City and other parts of region suggest that by any estimate the total strength of protesters was between 1.75 lakhs to 2 lakhs. “We have never seen such an unprecedented response to any movement so far�, said a senior Police officer wishing not to be identified.

Re: # 242
tahmed...
Yep, we know that Kashmiris love islam and they have demonstrated that towards pundits in 1990s. How to tackle such scoundrels without using huge amount of armed soldiers? If they behaved civilised way (at least stopped behaving like moslem), India would have been spared of some resources....

Re: # 232
DM...
This is the age old result of financial support provided by GoI and allowed these scums to loot and occupy pundit properties. The best solution should have been something different. The more you pamper these creatures, more trouble they create for you.

Okhla writes "TNI will not be published on lulu.com any more, that appears for sure...unless he doubles the amount payable (and pays it prompltly.."

Okhla sahib,

I admire your skill in sneaking my name into every post you make. I have made quite an impression on you for sure. Regarding lulu, they do not charge anything for the files you upload, only when you order a finished product is the charge applied. If you cannot counter my arguments trying these cheap tricks (lulu etc) at discrediting my work reflects extremely poorly on you. Just some sincere advice,

Have a nice day,

TNI masadi

Re #246 Posted by ajeya,

Ajeya, tahmed32 is very intelligent and nice guy. Even when I am replying to him, I am not saying things just to him. It is more for those muslims who simply avoid truths. He may be avoiding it only in few cases. He is not in favour of many things that Islam does, but as usual he would like Kashmir to be free so that Islam gets more land. Same inferiority complex problem that I discussed earlier in those "scenarios".

most of what I am saying is known to everybody, the repitition is to make their intellect fight against their ego. Give proper/solid reasons. Repeat it, so they know they are deceiving or lying. When you do it often, you just have to say the first statement and they will remember all of your logic. Later, you don't have to say anything, the moment they try to deceive themselves, they will remember all you said.

The problem is that the humbleness and modesty that we learn doesn't work against people who have lost this humbleness or modesty in some context. These people can still be much more humble and modest than I am in many contexts but when it comes to ISlam, they are neither honest, nor humble nor modest. They only try to fake it to keep you off the topic.


My ego is attached to a good society and I feel hurt with what Islam has done or is doing and will do if not restrained. If it was upto me, you give me Islamic idiocy (get rid of it) and I will give you Hinduism, Christianity, India or whatever. You can create as many nations and states as you want, have union or whatever and live as good humans.

But I am not ok when you feed this monster Islam with new states and more people and more land.

You can lie all your life, but future generations will prove that you were lying and your repetitive lying will not turn a lie into trut. Future will never be on your side.

pinku

It is no point railing at Tahmed. Mooslas will be mooslas and do moosla-giri wherever they go in the world. The good news is, that we are not alone. Mooslas have done moosla-giri in Europe, and the backlash has been the Serbian holocaust. Turkey and Greece do not speak to each other. In the American presidential debates, the candidates try to outdo each other in their sworn enmity to moosla-giri. Nobody can tolerate moosla-giri for any length of time. So in this one respect, the world is uniting more and more every day. The mooslas will keep bombing men, women and children around the world, and the world will keep uniting against them more and more every day.

Moosla-ism will be abolished from the world one day. That day will come.

Re #242 Posted by tahmed32

Excellent comment tahmed32, great reasoning, keep it up.


So hindus are chauvinist even if they end up having a party but muslims are not even when they demand nations for themselves. Ha Ha:-) Your billion muslims all living in their nations and demaning more daily are not Chauvinists??? Well, if they are not you should find some term that is more evil than this, if you have to comapre them with those hindus.

They want freedom for themselves after killing and forcing hindus out of that land??? Who will rule them? Why they can't tule themselves under Indian federation? What do they want to rule? Their own defence and they will fight and rule over whole world??? Their own foreign policy and they will help Pakistan in managing Jihad better? Or their own state and its economy which they can manage even now?


Love for land??? Who in this world doesn't not that kind of love for land? Any idiot can wish all land be his/hers??

And love for religion, what in religion do they love?

If they love freedom others love freeing them from their so caled love for land and religion. For others it is obsession with land and religion at the cost of well being of society. Others don't want them to create another nation on the basis of Islam. Doesn't matter how much they love such separations.

#242 tahmed32

[i was told that there is one indian soldier for every 3 civilians in kashmir!!]

If it was up to me, it would be 5 Indians from all the Indian states for each civilian in kashmir.

[as for the two crimes you imply kashmiris have - i.e. love of their land and of their religion of islam. This is exactly the mindset that causes kashmiris to have nothing to do with india.]

Indians don't want these ungrateful mofos either. They can take their mindset and start walking towards Mecca right now.

Get out!! RIGHT NOW!!

#242 tahmed32

[i was told that there is one indian soldier for every 3 civilians in kashmir!!]

If it was up to me, it would be 5 Indians from all the Indian states for each civilian in kashmir.

[as for the two crimes you imply kashmiris have - i.e. love of their land and of their religion of islam. This is exactly the mindset that causes kashmiris to have nothing to do with india.]

Indians don't want these ungrateful mofos either. They can take their mindset and start walking towards Mecca right now.

Get out!! RIGHT NOW!!

pinku #239 i have talked to indian kashmiris. what i hear is "independence" and freedom - people like to rule themselves. they dont want to be ruled by a majority that has made a hindu chauvinist party a mainstream part in the country. i was told that there is one indian soldier for every 3 civilians in kashmir!!

as for the two crimes you imply kashmiris have - i.e. love of their land and of their religion of islam. This is exactly the mindset that causes kashmiris to have nothing to do with india.

#238 imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. calling me an idiot because i called you an idiot...

(see, even i can be flattered into giving you a charity post!)

That was great comment by tahmed32, I didn't know that all Islamic states get some extra self-esteem for their people compared to non-islamic ones:-) All this thanks to Islam.

Re #236 Posted by tahmed32
But they are ok to live in the same world that I live in or not??? Or they have problem with that as well?

low self esteem? you mean, just me or all Indians? So they want to upgrade their self-esteem by leaving India?? And who will give them that extra self-esteem? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia or Hurriyat or Taliban?


Better talk to them to know why they want to separate from India and then let us know, don't make assumptions. If you hear "land" and "Islam" too many times don't be surprised:-)

#236 tahmed32

[er...problem in kashmir is kashmiris dont wish to live in the same country with you.]

No, idiot, only MUSLIM kashmiris don't want to live in the same country as us. Hindu Kashmiris (those that have not been terrorised away) still DO WANT to live in the same country as us.

Painting this as a Kashmiri problem, as opposed to a MUSLIM problem, is typical of the lying nature of the Muslim ummah.

#234 ajeya: must i remind you that my idiot-time quota for you is over for 2008?

#235 er...problem in kashmir is kashmiris dont wish to live in the same country with you.

i know that is hard to handle when you already suffer from low-self esteem...

To put it bluntly (if my other remarks were not blunt enough):


If identity (of being muslim) creates political problems, whether in Kashmir or anywhere else, then it is Islam that creates those problems...And in that case Islam is at the root of problems.



And if you don't understand it as a muslim then of course you are not unbiased and/or are not that much inclined to rationality.

If you don't understand it as a non-muslim, you are simply irrational (You didn't have an ego attached to Islam so it is not that which is preventing you from seeing the reason). Some of you may be doing it to show your pseudo modesty without knowing that it is not at all modest to support lies or to ignore truths when life of many people is at stake.

#225 tahmed32

[indeed ironically, it is individuals lacking such strong roots in their own heritage and culture who have a need to put down other cultures. ]

Criticizing Islam and it's evils is not criticizing a "culture and heritage". Pakiland has a different "culture and heritage" than Morocco or Turkey, but both are infected with Islam.

Tahmed is all swelled up like a weathercock - the deflation will take some time. The "popular democratic movement" only succeeded because the very large component of jihadi sympathizers in Paki society were hell-bent against Mushu-baba. Mushu-baba came to power with their help. But he bit the jihadi hand that fed him, and now the US feels that propping him up any more would be counterproductive. A new "democratic" puppet government would be more useful. Until such time as when another strongman will be required to do their bidding.

Mushy probably feels that this is a good way to get off the tiger without being eaten up, and the US will now help him "settle" in the future.

Tahmed would do well to quit waxing eloquent on such topics as "human brotherhood", "universal peace" and the "message of islam". Because he won't like others quoting these back to him later.

test

I hope my Indian Muslim friends are reading this: they are supporting Umma and not merely self-determination in Kashmir. I still think that India can do better without such people.

url:http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/18amar4.htm

Hurriyat wants UN peacekeeping troops in Kashmir

Krishnakumar P and Mukhtar Ahmad in Srinagar | August 18, 2008 17:34 IST

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, chairman of the hardline faction of the All Party Hurriyat Conference, on Tuesday demanded the immediate withdrawal of security forces from the Kashmir Valley.

Addressing a mammoth gathering of over 1,00,000 people at Srinagar's [Images] Tourists Reception Centre Grounds along with fellow leaders Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, Shabbir Shah and Yasin Malik, Geelani laid down three immediate demands: The withdrawal of security forces from Kashmir, the continuation of the peaceful agitation for right to self-determination and the unity of the Muslim Ummah.

The Amarnath Row

The Hurriyat, which had announced a three-day suspension of its agitation from Tuesday, changed its decision and declared that the complete shutdown in the valley will continue.

The Hurriyat leaders also called off their planned march to the United Nations Military Observers Group office. "Either we all go, or nobody goes. Since the security forces won't allow all of us, we will not go to the United Nations office today," Yasin Malik said.

Kashmir: Thousands take part in Hurriyat rally

"The United Nations must send its peacekeeping troops to ensure the safety of the people both in the Valley and Jammu," he said, adding that the Valley will take the Muslims of Jammu along with them in their fight for self-determination.

"But at the same time, we also assure that we will safeguard the lives, property, religious places and the honour of the minority in the Valley," he said.

'Right thinking' people must bring peace to Valley: PM

Geelani, who was the last speaker, also criticised General Pervez Musharraf [Images], who had stepped down as Pakistan President, moments before his speech began.

"Musharraf had destroyed both Pakistan and Kashmir. Now he has had to step down. The people of Pakistan have rejected him. We take this opportunity to urge the new establishment in Pakistan to change its policy towards Kashmir," he said.

'Now, people are leading the leaders'

Upping the separatism rhetoric, Geelani said, "Pakistan was created for Islam and must continue to safeguard the interests of Islam.

"Likewise, here in Kashmir, nationalism will not work, the American world order will not work. Only Islam unites us. We have religious affiliations with Pakistan and we will continue to remain affiliated with that country," he added.

Hamid Mir says Musharraf was about to solve Kashmir issue.[from today's rediff.com]

How Musharraf missed the Nobel Peace Prize

August 18, 2008


Pervez Musharraf is still living in a fool's paradise. He resigned as Pakistan's president not out of any guilt but he resigned under political pressure. Just a few minutes before his speech on Monday he told one of his close friends that the coalition partners will start fighting with each other very soon, there will be more political instability in his absence, people will come out on the roads in the next six months and they will demand, 'come back Musharraf'. That is the reason Musharraf is not going out of Pakistan. He will stay in Pakistan under heavy security and he will wait for the people to call him back.

He is badly mistaken. The people of Pakistan had already rejected him and his policies on February 18. They were sick of him and that was why even US President George W Bush [Images] abandoned him in his last days. but Musharraf still thinks that Pakistan cannot survive without him. He claimed in his Monday's speech that Pakistan was about to be declared a terrorist state in 1999 but he rescued Pakistan and gave it a new identity.

He never mentioned Kargil [Images] which gave a bad name to Pakistan, he never mentioned anything about the judicial crisis he created in 2007 and he never mentioned anything about the assassination of Pakistan People's Party leader Benazir Bhutto [Images]. Her death started Musharraf's downfall. His government lost its writ for at least one week after Benazir's assassination. There was violence everywhere and the government evaporated. That was the time when the Army decided to stay away from Musharraf to save its credibility, and that was how Musharraf lost his power.

Benazir Bhutto's assassination was also a big blow to the peace process in South Asia.

Don't humiliate Musharraf, US tells Pakistan

President Pervez Musharraf [Images] and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] had agreed on an "out of the box "solution to the Kashmir dispute after many rounds of direct and indirect talks. They decided in 2006 to resolve the Kashmir dispute latest by the end of 2007. US President George W Bush was also on board with them. Both the leaders were hoping for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2008 but now they have missed the chance.

Musharraf is no more in a position to sell an "out of the box" solution to the Kashmir dispute. Manmohan Singh will also face difficulties from the Indian parliament for the approval of an "out of the box" solution to Kashmir after the recent violence in Jammu and Kashmir [Images].

Musharraf and Manmohan Singh first met during the UN Summit in New York when the Indian prime minister called on the Pakistani president at his hotel in New York on September 24, 2004. It was an extremely pleasant encounter. Musharraf met Manmohan Singh again on April 18, 2005, during a one-day cricket match between India and Pakistan in Delhi [Images]. India lost the match but Musharraf and Manmohan Singh decided that they will find a Kashmir solution in which no side will be a loser but all will be winners.

After a few months they had another dinner on September 14, 2005, in New York, during the UN General Assembly. Musharraf proposed demilitarisation of Jammu and Kashmir, self-governance and joint management mechanism of the troubled valley. Initially Manmohan Singh raised many objections but later on both of them decided to continue their efforts for reaching on an "out of the box" solution without compromising the stated positions of their governments.

Indian National Security Adviser MK Narayanan and Pakistani National Security adviser Tariq Aziz continued their quite diplomacy in Dubai to discuss some more details. The Indian side convinced the People's Democratic Party's pro-Delhi leader Mehbooba Mufti and the Pakistani side took into confidence separatist Kashmiri leaders Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Yasin Malik for resolving the Kashmir dispute in the year 2007. The details of the great Kashmir solution were finalised in June 2006.

Musharraf wanted Manmohan Singh to visit Pakistan in July 2006 but the Indian prime minister was looking for a politically suitable opportunity to break the ice. Musharraf sent a message to Benazir Bhutto that the Kashmir problem will be resolved soon and she will have to support an "out of the box" solution.

Unfortunately 2006 was wasted and 2007 began. That was the year Musharraf started committing suicidal blunders. He sacked and arrested a sitting Chief Justice of Pakistan. Lawyers and civil society came out on the streets against him. He lost a legal battle in the Supreme Court of Pakistan on July 20, 2007, and Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry was reinstated.

Musharraf never digested this legal defeat. He struck a deal with exiled opposition leader Benazir Bhutto with the help of the USA and the UK. Musharraf agreed to take off his Army uniform and hold elections. Benazir Bhutto agreed to support the war against terrorism in return for free and fair elections. Benazir returned to Pakistan in October but there was a lot of trust deficit between her and Musharraf. She was not ready to take a clear position against the Chief Jutice. An agitated Musharraf imposed emergency in Pakistan on November 3, 2007, mainly against the Supreme Court and "rebel media".

Benazir Bhutto declared this emergency as martial law and announced that she was stopping her dialogue with Musharraf. Elections were announced on January 8, 2008, but Benazir Bhutto suspected rigging and started making noises against it. She had a long meeting with the director general of ISI, Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, on the night of December 26, 2008. Taj warned her about some security threats and suggested she abandon her election campaign. Benazir Bhutto refused. The next day she was assassinated in Rawalpindi.

This assassination actually marked the political death of Musharraf. He lost his popularity in Pakistan completely. He delayed elections for one month but his rigging plans failed because the Army decided to stay away from politics. Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kyani even ordered the ISI not to support any political party in the election. The neutral role of the Army was a big blow to Musharraf. His supporters lost with big margins. The February 18 election was a clear vote of no-confidence by Pakistani voters against Musharraf, but he never accepted his defeat. He was not happy with the Army Chief. He was in a position to sack the Army Chief as the supreme commander of the armed forces but he was aware that the Army could defy his orders, like he defied the orders of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in 1999 as Army chief. He decided to wait for an appropriate time to hit both the Army chief and the new coalition government.

Musharraf was sure that only he could resolve the Kashmir dispute, he was sure that only he has the guts to pave the way for the recognition of Israel by Pakistan. He was also sure that the Pakistan Army [Images] needs him despite the fact that he was no more in uniform. He thought that only he could negotiate more and more military aid from the US. He was sure that he will catch Osama bin Laden soon and the West will force the new coalition government to accept him as President for the next five years. Musharraf delayed the government-making process in Pakistan for more than one month. He tried to make deals with PPP leader Asif Ali Zardari and Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz chief Nawaz Sharif through top US diplomats but he failed. Musharraf is still popular in Western capitals but he is the most unpopular human being in Pakistan.

The new coalition sent him messages to resign but Musharraf threatened to use his constitutional powers. His rough attitude created problems, and finally the coalition leaders decided to impeach him. All his old buddies have ditched him. The US and the UK were not in a position to help him. They requested the new coalition to provide a safe passage to Musharraf instead of impeaching him. He has lost everything. All his friends want him to say goodbye.

Musharraf ruled Pakistan for more than eight years but he never ruled the hearts and minds of his people like a true leader because he never came to power through the ballot but through the bullet. He was definitely in a position to become a real peace-maker with the help of Manmohan Singh and Benazir Bhutto in 2007 but he missed this golden chance. He missed 2007 because he created a political turmoil in Pakistan by attacking the judiciary. He also missed a chance to win the Nobel Peace Prize along with Manmohan Singh due to his self-righteousness. He has missed everything now. He will soon realise that there is no use in staying on in Pakistan and ultimately he will leave the country because it's difficult for him to face the common people. He will also miss Pakistan very soon but the people of Pakistan will not miss him.

Musharraf was definitely the last military dictator of Pakistan; many people will remember him not only as a dictator but also as a traitor who broke the constitution of Pakistan not once but twice.

Guest Columns

Re #207 Posted by dost_mittar on August 18, 2008 4:44:18 am

dost mittar

You said:
[[
Islam has a strong political element in it but to most devout muslims, their religion means its five pillars which are devoid of any political content.
]]

Most of devout muslims??? Devout to what??

Do you know what the first pillar is?
There is no God but Allaha and Muhammad is his messenger.

And now what Messenger says??? All that is in Kuran.

So if you tell about these five pillars of Islam to an Islamist (there are more than you can imagine and you can find the Islamists when you do some proper talking not by praising Islam in front of them), he won't give even 10 percent importance to the rest of them.

After first pillar (a very political statement that starts with negative tone of saying "no god but Allaha", a fairly stupid comment if you pretend to be an intellectual), what you have is Kuran.

Kuran itself doesn't summarize five pillars of Islam, it was an attempt to make things more meaningful given the number and kind of things Kuran says. It was a good attempt, but the very first pillar is the political basis of Islam.

Now on what kind of muslims you have met:
=========================================

I am from a locality where we have lots of muslims so I know both good muslims, bad muslims and everything in between. Even here on chowk we are talking with muslims, but highly educated ones. If you have not seen devout muslims, who are fanatics than probably you have not seen many muslims. The subji-wala (in those days around 35 year old) that I used to interact with was a devout muslim and he was a good hearted man, but his father was more devout than him and used to consider hindus dirty humans (I don't know about his boys as to what they started thinking about different muslims).

If you create some troublesome questions the way I did earlier and ask muslims to respond. What you will find is that utterly poor muslims are more open minded while middle class muslims are less open minded and highly educated ones are again more open-minded.

You should check some Islamic scholars in Islamic states and see what they say to their musilms brothers, check the devoutness of these muslims and then count the number of such scholars and think how many devout muslims follw them.

You are making wrong guesses by checking ultra poors. A poor in south-asian nations hardly has an option to follow anything, whether it is muslim or a hindu poor. Check middle class people.

Lastly, nobody is pure evil, all those Islamists are victim of the political nature of Islam, they are not hijacking Islam. Islams hijacks them. If an ideology can be hijcaked so comprehensively for something so wrong then that ideology is anyway wrong or not needed.

Bye Mush...


Hie Kaytoe Tahmed, TNI,

TNI will not be published on lulu.com any more, that appears for sure...unless he doubles the amount payable (and pays it prompltly).

Tahmed writes "With regard to your kind offer to translate, what exactly is this mysterious form of worship that you find embedded in my posts: "..now you can return to your white man worship."? Is this white man Massa Mills, perchance, whose humble messenger you are? "

Tahmed sahib, thanks for the reply and revealing to us the moral confusion that you suffer from. On the one hand you support every official lie and distraction offered by those whose entire structure of world governance is based on white supremacy and on the other hand when exposed you quickly retract...that can be a slight positive were it not for your spineless hypocrisy. Mills an anti establishment, anti white man supremacy intellectual has nothing to do with white man worship, I merely use his ideas that are well established to clarify the bs of the white man's system, and have never used his work as stand alone authority just because he happened to be white, unlike you who will take stands all across the board just so long as nothing bad is reflected on the official BS of the white man...

Have a good day, and return to the WMW you partake in on these boards.....

TNI Masadi

tahmed:

As for my celebrations, I already posted something suitable on UP under "to pakistani chowkies". :)

tahmed#225:

I think that you know my views about Pakistani politics. I would celebrate if in a couple of years, the Pakistani civilian society does not get disillusioned by Pakistani politicians' shenanigans, which the politicians inevitably indulge in, and start wishing for another strong man to save them.

dost mittar: agreed. thus - living in North America, both you and I obviously have strong roots (i.e. emotional ties and interests with the panjab, with the respective religions and countries we were born in). and indeed, it is these strong roots that make it possible for us to have the self-confidence needed to appreciate the great cultures of North America we live in - indeed ironically, it is individuals lacking such strong roots in their own heritage and culture who have a need to put down other cultures.

Thus, you too can take pride today in this achievement of the Pakistani people - who have overthrown an absolute, lawless dictator through a democratic struggle led by lawyers! He was not dragged out on the streets and hanged like a common thug (as the romanian dictator was, e.g.), but allowed to resign - with the prospect of being brought to justice if the Chief Justice is restored.

This is an example of the "step forward" (not just for pakistanis, but for the entire region and indeed the world) that we can all celebrate, regardless of the fact that we are pakistani or not.

I fully agree with you. But I also believe that having strong roots make it for a strong tree. Other than that, I am with you.

#222 dost mittar: the rest of humanity (i.e. outside one's own ethnic, religious, group) feels "remote" only if one choses to treat it as alien. Love, like knowledge, does not diminish by being extended. So - wherever men and women have struggled to take us (humanity) a step forward (in science, in political philosophy) - we can applaud that and take pride in their achievement. when i used to travel (a lot!) i used to fall in love with every country i visited. so, while i love panjabi music e.g., i love bengali folk songs too.

if it helps, look at it this way - we are all together on this lonely planet. it is no longer a dream - but a reality we must recognize if we wish to see humanity as a species even survive the next few generations. and, like i said earlier, it also makes one's life that much more fun.

tahmed:

I agree, but it is easier to get self-esteem from something you can relate to in a less remote way, even if it is being an economist or a physicist.

#217 dost mittar: please dont say "zindabad" - hamidm said that about musharraf, and look what happened to him. :-(

but seriously - i think life is much more fun if one takes pride in the entire human experience, and does not simply restrict it to one ethnic, religious or other group. if nothing else, it drives some people nuts - thus, masadi gnashes his teeth when i tell him about the great American Revolution and the US Bill of Rights; arjun goes berserk when i talk about the message of Islam; hamidm starts swivelling like a murgha on a weathervane when i talk about the great struggle of the lawyers of Pakistan.

Thanks. I should thank Mr Madani for asking that question; it clarifies the reason behind the title of the artilce.

Dostmittar, the third verse of the song is the German national anthem, Deutchsland uber alles is not used because of the nazi affiliations, perhaps?

nb:

I read the same book by Mikes (pronounced Mikesh), maybe your mom and I had similar tastes. For all I know, it may still be Germany's national anthem.

tahmed#216:

tahmed zindabad! You have now started taking pride in your heritage and not equate it with your African ancestors.

Cobra: maybe when you become an IT billionaire, you can fund a Panini museum at Margalla hills.

Dostmittar, Deutschland uber alles is also the first line of the song of which the German national anthem is a part. It used to be a Nazi anthem, and is still (tahir or others who live there can correct me) used by neo-Nazi groups.
Regarding George Mikes, I remember reading How To Be An Alien as a kid, it was a copy which belonged to my mother in school a long time ago. His views on Nehru were interesting, but the book was funny, even though it was not just politically incorrect, it was outright bigoted and racist.

#213 your heritage is safe with us in Pakistan. inshallah one day there will be a monument to Panini - the great pothwari grammarian - at the place where he lived and worked. Islamabad!

We may even permit hindu pilgrims to come to Pakistan to bathe in the sacred river on the banks of which the hymns of the Vedas were first sung - the Indus. Till then, Ganges will have to do.

True that but we are not giving our name and the heritage. :)

#211 Indians are not Indians (i.e. from the river Indus) either. Kashmiris are the only true Indians (river Indus flows through there).

Give them freedom. They are no Indian's any way. What's the point in holding them by force and or coaxing?

arjun#209:

Yes, I do think so. Most of those who took part in WTC bombings were not devout. Neither are some of the strongest proponents of political islam on chowk.

This thing really came home to me during my six week stay in Bangladesh; I found Bangladeshis to be much more devout than Pakistanis, every truck, bus, schooter, even cycle riksha had the kalima printed on it. On the other hand, similar vehicles in Pakistan have much more colourful art work. People who like heeramandi are more likely to turn jihadis than those who go to Data Durbar.

#207 Posted by dost_mittar on August 18, 2008 4:44:18 am


it but to most devout muslims, their religion means its five pillars which are devoid of any political content.


huh? If I understand you correctly, you're saying devout muslims stay out of the politics shit...

ahmedmadani#199:

Good morning to you, too, sir.

Long tme ago, I read a very funny book by British-Hungarian writer, George Mikes, in which he made satirical commentaries on various nations. The one on Germans was entitled "Deutschland uber alles", the German anthem which means "Germany above all"; it referred to the patriotism of Germans who put their country above everything else. My use here signifies that for Indian politicians, it is politics above all, nation be damned.

pinku#187:

Islam has a strong political element in it but to most devout muslims, their religion means its five pillars which are devoid of any political content.

Kashmir is real stupidity created by the JLN and congress people. It is the greatest burden on India. Either it should have been integrated with India, with chinese policy...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/Swaminathan_A _Aiyar/Swaminomics/Independence_Day_for_Kashmir/articleshow/3372132.cms

testicularji wrote

"
#187 "good ideas from Hinduism"

and what exactly are these?
"
Pinkuji you can wake up the sleeping dog but not the pretending one!

Name a civilization which allowed to settle and prosper persecuted people such as Syrian Christians, Jews and Zarotrostian, testicularji.

Sarve Sukhinah Bhavantu ... Pinkuji please throw at this dog bones from our civilization-al treasure.

But I feel "word" especially in alien tongue and rooted in alien distant culture is the worst idol. If humans go through the experience/living/effort of creating an idol then it gets divinified. Since Shanti was forced because of slavery, economic and political exploitation the "wordy book" idol was never rediscovered/recreated by individual Shantic convert's efforts. The sweat on the forehead of a farmer and laborer is better indicator of divinity of his creation. Pinkuji, while observing my mother's and wife's elaborate rituals I find this divinifying the idol every day by individual's effort of body-mind-intellect. That is why five times Namazi is always better than intellectual scumBaig. The Namazi would be helped more if Shanti is localized to Marathi, Pandharpur becomes Macca and IIT Mumbai becomes Madina, Shivjayanti becomes Eid and Holi becomes Moharram.

Pinkuji, pardon me somewhere you wrote about "different truths," don't you think truths appear different because of instruments to observe the one and the only one truth? If the instrument is changing ie non-shashwat then we see the Truth in different colors and forms. Human intellect and its power constantly changes because of Vasana/ego so it is not the best instrument for observing Truth. Truth is observed/lived the best when ego is dissolved.

Anyway, for our Shantic testicularji and other bakis the best we can do is to push "afghani dostum in baki rectum. " It's utterly hopeless please see Zaid Hamid's videos.

Ahmedmadani sahib,

even having barbarous neighbour neighbours help.

Who is this barbarous neighbour? I hope you are referring to India 'cos if not, the Talibs are going to come after you.

Location of pakistan is unique and and so get compension

You can get your compensation all right but in turn you will also to export Dr Afia's. I hope you are OK with these terms?

Regards

Re: # 202 Mr. Mujumdar sad fact is Balochistan is full of gas and minerals. That means USA can be flaming situation by allowing BLA type and mr. Bugti openly lives in A.Stan he can not do if USA decides.
Gas is important but but ironically even having barbarous neighbour neighbours help. We have no gas but we have A.Stan which is like gas field to be exploited. A.Stan is like a gold mine and american are struck there and so just like gas export money Pakistan is entrace to A.Stan and who ever wants to go with army need to pay Pakistan. Money is money. Now you can understand what Jinnah to Musharaff talking of unique geographical position. In wars location of everything as one american said Pakistan is unsinkable carrier against soviet Union . Location of pakistan is unique and and so get compension , that just like having gas fields.

Ahmedmadani sahib,

wonder Kashmiri are not doing like that ?

1. There are no gas field in Kashmir.
2. Kashmir imports power from rather than export to rest of India.

Hope that explains, sir.

Regards

All boil down to power. Russia moved its forces in Georgia and was able to achieve , If we were strong militarily same way Pakistani Tanks would have moved and liberated. Once mr. Pavo said is right spitist forces won if backed by big powers. Same way China suppress muslims but nobody says words. Life is not fair for many people.
But if Pakistani Nation really puts mind 200% things can change. Once problems are solved internally and western/ northern front war is won then can concentrate on eastern front in general and Kashmir in particular. It is long running mile match , those who have great threshod of pain and long term view patience will kashmir. Both India/pak. are are troubled by centrifugal forces. So the country will survive which can develop more centripetal force than centrifugal. In both cases economic interest is binding force to be in respective federation. B.Stan and Kashmir/part are both want to go different way and both govt are behaving differently. In balochistan irregular armed forces are blowing raiways, electric pylons, gas lines wonder Kashmiri are not doing like that ?
Just wonder. Is american invisible hand stirring fire in both cases ?

Mr. Z... How much Cigar costs in USA. And how much regular cigarettes cost. ( I have heard 20 units per pack is correct ?). Cigar only smoked by rich elites only ? Is it like Mercidez driving , status symbol?
Is State express 555 smoking are also status in North America?
Just curious about things in USA.
Good morning

Re: # 186 DM..... Good Morning.
Why you used "German" word Uber ? What is something special meaning or under current or is it American or Canadian slang.
With best Regards

Mr. Masadi: Thank you for your kind consideration. You are indeed a patient scholar to whom illiterates like me can look up to for enlightenment and right-guidance.

With regard to your kind offer to translate, what exactly is this mysterious form of worship that you find embedded in my posts: "..now you can return to your white man worship."? Is this white man Massa Mills, perchance, whose humble messenger you are? And am i supposed to recite
"There is no god but Massa Mills, and Masadi is his prophet" when I worship?

Free Kashmir!

In #194 read "While comparing phenomena, try to keep consistency in units of analysis.

#193 Tahmed sahib, sorry to have confused you, let me assure you that it was not deliberate. If some portions of my post are not clear, please let me know and I will try my best to clarify them.

Enjoy your day,

TNI Masadi

Arjun writes "None of these things are new

robbing
raping
murder

and yet the US government(and US elite) are unable to stop themm..'

Arjun sahib, Thank you for your kind and generous observation. However your observation comparing the sum total of rape, murder, robbery to a particular (type of) incident of murder/suicide whose alleged proponents were being tracked by the US authorities is quite disingenuous. Try to keep consistency in units of analysis. The 'not new' point is not emphasised by Muslims but by excuse mongers among the US administration to cover their preceived failure saying that such acts they could not have anticipated, which is an obvious lie.

The most advanced analysis of the 9/11 case as US government conspiracy has not come from Muslims but from concerned American citizens themselves. While the US government is in the business of preventing and protecting attacks on the homeland by foreign enemies, law enforcement is usually not in the business of prevention by active intervention because they do not have a NORAD like system in place that detects robberies, murders and rapes....

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Masadi: Congratulations on learning a foreign language. Is this greek you are writing in today? Could you please translate this into plain english so non-scholars like myself?

#191 Posted by masadi on August 17, 2008 2:03:37 pm


The not so ingeneous idea of using civilian aircraft as weapons was not new or novel


None of these things are new

robbing
raping
murder

and yet the US government(and US elite) are unable to stop themm..

It's funny how even the pakis who say they're not jihadis push the 9/11 conspiracy theory...with muslims as the victims...

Tahmed writes "zeemax #173 no doubt the hijackers caught the US with its guard down on 9/11. NORAD was built and operated to look for missiles and bombers flying into US from outside, not airliners straying off course within the US. And NORAD was in fact alerted within reasonable time - I myself saw the rare event of a military jet fly low above where I was soon "


Salam and greetings of peace Tahmad sahib. How are you doing this fine sunny day? How is retired life treating you? Seen any low flying jets lately?

I see that you are again trying to downplay the fact that the US administration with its bucket full of tools stood down on 9/11, facilitating the "attacks" at the very least. Norad is not such a "dumb" system as you are implying. The not so ingeneous idea of using civilian aircraft as weapons was not new or novel, and the effects of aircraft hitting tall buildings had also been studied before. Once NORAD had a very good idea of what was going on, it still stood down. According to the 9/11 report of the US govt's commission, chance after chance was missed to stop the attacks, making the US authorities at the very least guilty through criminal neglect, what happened thereafter told everyone that knowing what was going on the US govt as facilitator allowed, what amounted to be a major opportunity for its evil designs around the globe (Iraq being just one such case), 9/11 to happen.

Thank you for your time, now you can return to your white man worship. Have a good day,

TNI masadi

zeemax #183 20 years from now, if not sooner, al qaeda will be a footnote in history. like the Red Brigade of the 1960's, or the Thugs of India of the 19th century.

because it requires a genius to build, and any fool can destroy.

and only a fool thinks a civilization is big buildings - germany and japan lost thousands of buildings and other infrastructure, and yet came back stronger than ever.

#187 "good ideas from Hinduism"

and what exactly are these?

add to #187 Posted by pinku


[[There are two differences, first is of degree and second is the scope. Both the lies and the ego created by those lies have global scope for Islam and carry weight of "words of God".]]

the word of God is the third difference compared to most other beliefs except Christianity.

re #179 Posted by dost_mittar on August 17,

dost mittar,

[[To a non-believer, this would be true of any person with faith, including the followers of Sai Baba. ]]


There are two differences, first is of degree and second is the scope. Both the lies and the ego created by those lies have global scope for Islam and carry weight of "words of God".

Sai baba stuff doesn't try to rule all of world, they don't have any "words" of Sai baba that says you need to fight all non-believers or have to rule the whole world or all other truths are invalid except theirs. They may want to increase their numbers but again not because Sai-baba has given them written "words" by making them believe they are words of God. Rest you can do a survey to know how many muslims can confess even in private that those words are not "words of God". Here Murad-Baig is above billion others.

Let me know if you want to discuss this further, I can clarify this difference with more exmaples. I simply don't like people trivializing the factual difference by saying that all other religions can be considered similarly.

Everybody is both good and bad the difference is between degrees. And nope, it is false to say that good or bad are arbitrary, you can say so till you don't know what good or bad is. and you won't be able to argue for long.

The moment you set an objective (that too can't be set arbitrarily), you have a direction. There are infinite truths in this world, no one truth can negate others they simply give clear contexts for their own validity. If one negates the other one of them is false. Goodness is the ability to be more in sync with these truths (or to move towards that sync) and badness is to help conflict with truths. The problem with Islam is that it creates fake truths which are even in confict with uninversal truths and it is in conflict with majority of the universal truths. It has maximum conflict any religion has with universal truths. That is its dgree of badness. Lies and deception and use of all means by a large part of humanity that too to support worst possible ideas is a curse on humanity. If Christianity used to be like that then during those times it was also a curse to humanity. If hinduism was like that for even 10 years it was a curse then, but Islam in its current form and psychology seems to be longest living curse


Kashmir is a land problem. Anybody who lived in KLashmir or will live in Kashmir is a kashmiri, including those hindus that have been thrown out. Including those Brahmins who thousand years ago settled in Kashmir and were forefathers of both the Budhdhist that follwed and these muslim converts. These Kashmiris are not root of problem. The problem is land that Islam needs. Remember root of Kashmiriyat is not Islam but good ideas from Hinduism.

Even if you kill all Kashmiris you have currently, the problem will still remain. The fact is thare is no way you can solve this land problem related to Islam, doesn't matter whether you solve middle-east problem or Kashmir proplem or not. They are neither first nor will be last.

sadna:

Thanks for correction. I was somehow under the impression that Mehbooba, being the party leader, was also the CM.

d_m
I meant to mention. It was Mufti Mohammed Syed the father, who was CM, not the daughter, Mehbooba Mufti. Congress had more seats but since the PDP insisted, the Mufti became CM first, not Ghulam Nabi Azad.

#174,

Roachmail, roachmail. hindoo_monkey@roachmail.com.

I don't respond to roachmails, as you may have found.

But I know piss drinkers like roaches have no ghairat in the least.

#180 Posted by tahmed32,

Okay now this is going into the entire conspiracy theory. But whose conspiracy? No one knows. I don't claim to know.

What height the planes were flying? Forget it.

I only know one thing. Whoever did 9/11 was so brilliant that he/she will manufacture and take over a World Government, by hook or by crook. That guy was a Genius.

DM,
I gave you the reference before too. Its on my other computer and shall post it. The Hindu right was certainly for doing away with Kashmir. This is a sign of growing radicalism.
Secularism, Liberalism a la Jatti etc is just a facade.

#176 Posted by ijaz_gul on August 17, 2008 6:52:20 am


The issue is the the most important party is Kashmiris.


Sorry..that's not how it works...the "kashmiris" don't get a veto..the will of the indian people, as expressed by their parliament, is what's most important..The indian parliament may pay lip service for now but when push comes to shove, there's a bipartisan consensus..when robin raphael, boucher's predecessor in foggy bottom, said kashmir was a disputed region, the indian parliament stuck it to her by passing a resolution declaring kashmir part of india..

the bottom line is that there is nothing capable of changing the status quo in kashmir...not the jihadis, not the pakis...The US or the west is clearly not on your side...they're not going to piss around with india for something that doesn't benefit them...

zeemax #173 no doubt the hijackers caught the US with its guard down on 9/11. NORAD was built and operated to look for missiles and bombers flying into US from outside, not airliners straying off course within the US. And NORAD was in fact alerted within reasonable time - I myself saw the rare event of a military jet fly low above where I was soon after watching live the terrible event of the twin towers collapsing.

Given the sky-high bar of evidence you have set in seeking to be convinced about al qaeda, I am surprised to see the virtually no bar that you set in reaching the conclusion that it was the girls' parents who themselves destroyed their children's schools!! Having been involved with NGO schools in Pakistan for over a quarter century now and seen how much effort people have put into building those schools - I can assure you that those poor people saw these schools as the best hope for their children. So, do you have any video evidence showing parents of these children gloating about destroying those schools? And how many schools (other than training centers for terrorists) did al qaeda build?

pinku#160:

"What Islam does is, it forces illusion and lies on you, when you live with them for long you get attached to them and your intelect is not even allowed to work against this ego."

To a non-believer, this would be true of any person with faith, including the followers of Sai Baba.

Ijaz#176:

"The issue is the the most important party is Kashmiris."

Maybe now, but back then there were only two parties, India and Pakistan. Even in the UN resolutions, Kashmiris were to be given only two choices - India or Pakistan, there was no other choice.

ijaz_gul:

" Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of the article, the President may, by public notification, declare that this article shall cease to be operative or shall be operative only with such exceptions and modifications and from such date as he may notify:

Provided that the recommendation of the Constituent Assembly of the State referred to in clause (2) shall be necessary before the President issues such a notification."


This seems to be a legalese to satisfy two opposing viewpoints. The use of "notwithstanding" would seem to over-ride everything else; at the same time "Provided" adds a qualification to it.

But I also note that there is a reference to the state constituent assembly. I believe that such an assembly may have been formed in 1951 but does not exist any more.

But your understanding of the viewpoint of the Hindu Right is not correct. Although Patel is rumoured to have proposed a swap of Hyderabad for Kashmir to Liaqat Ali (which he apparently rejected), the Hindu Right wanted to continue the Kashmir Operation until all of Kashmir was with India; indeed, they have never forgiven Nehru for calling the ceasefire and taking the Kashmir issue to the UN.

arjun,
The issue is the the most important party is Kashmiris.

#168 Posted by ijaz_gul on August 16, 2008 10:59:20 pm

Stop deluding yourself...the indian government can yank 370 the minute it wants...nothing in the constitution prevents them from doing that..it'll only happen when all parties agree..they're not doing it now because there's no reason to do it right away...and then there's the whole pandering to muslims things..

#173 Posted by zeemax on August 17, 2008 5:21:26 am


I would have actually preferred some proof on how Usama Bin Ladin managed to evade NORAD over Manhattan twice in less than 20 minutes with two hijacked wide-body airliners


inbred retard....are you going to ask any questions of your own or are you just going to recycle BS from loose change?

#172 Posted by tahmed32,

Alright. so it's established you have video proof, reinforced with circumstantial evidence. Nothing else.

That's OK. You have plenty of company.

I would have actually preferred some proof on how Usama Bin Ladin managed to evade NORAD over Manhattan twice in less than 20 minutes with two hijacked wide-body airliners, and again over Pentagon with a third one an hour later when all was red alert and the two towers were already dust. But, never mind.

Re "the fact is that in pitched battles the taliban are no match for the pakistani forces - lacking air cover, lacking big guns, armored vehicles, training, and now - with the democratic government in charge - the legitimacy of being a national army. Pakistani soldiers dont need to hide behind civilians - it is the taliban and al qaeda who hide in caves, popping their heads in public briefly like Saddam used to do to pretend they are in power and then quickly hide when the military comes after them."

That's wordy and emotional.

Regular armies need cover when faced with rebels coming out from 'caves' in the dark. It is Standard Operating Procedure to take over the Government structures from which to operate. More than a hundred of them in Swat alone - convenient. That's Military SOP and I don't oppose it. But then, the enemy will blow up those structures wherever they find them.

It's got nothing to do with Girls' education. These people have been educating their daughters in the same schools since these were established. Now they have to blow them up.

zeemax: Contrary to what you say - video is in fact widely used as admissible evidence in court. And like all evidence, the authenticity of the video is determined by the circumstances surrounding which the video was made. And there is plenty of evidence in addition to the video (e.g. motivations, interviews, and so forth).

And I am not obfuscating when I refer to the burning of girls schools - the fact is that in pitched battles the taliban are no match for the pakistani forces - lacking air cover, lacking big guns, armored vehicles, training, and now - with the democratic government in charge - the legitimacy of being a national army. Pakistani soldiers dont need to hide behind civilians - it is the taliban and al qaeda who hide in caves, popping their heads in public briefly like Saddam used to do to pretend they are in power and then quickly hide when the military comes after them.

So - the fact is that tens of girls schools and even colleges have been burnt by these rogues, and thousands of young people who had hoped to secure a better future through education are now sitting at home while youth around the world have schools to go to. It does not take a genius to realize the extent of the damage these scoundrels whom you take so much pains to defend have done to the same muslims whom they claim to represent!!

Re Roachmails about Fallujah:

The Fallujah rebellion started the insurgency which has still not ended, resulting in preventing control of Iraq by the Americans despite trying for six years. Entire Fallujah was destroyed in the process, and thousands killed - yes.

Americans should never have used that girls school if they had any sense to succeed in Iraq.

Remember how the fallujah "rebellion" ended? the marines sent a couple of thousand jihadis to allah's strip clib...


:-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_naVAiFByxw

yeh saala arabonse badhakar arab hain.

this kind of explains how bakis lie thru their teeth with all the emotional drama and flowery language. i think that explains charasi allama. why dont you guys work for your own individual salvation and not do all the time chumma to distant umma.

waht is this allama? does allah have mom? was the charasi a female?

what history do you guys teach? Do you tell how Prithwiraj and DharmaVeer Sambhaji were killed? Do you tell how Gandhi stopped massacre of Shantic folks in bihar and bengal?

arjun friend, I already owe you a ehsan. please add this too.

Provided that the recommendation of the Constituent Assembly of the State referred to in clause (2) shall be necessary before the President issues such a notification.

efnboglJeJeeÅeebveer yee@cyemHeâesš Ie[efJe}s ns ceLeUs JeeÛetve ceve ØemeVe nesles, heCe ns mHeâesš efnbotbvee peKeceer keâjCÙeemee"er nesles ns JeeÛetve ceeve çejcesves Kee}er peeles.



efnbotbÛes Hegâmekesâ yee@cye!

keâe Fppele Iee}Jelee?

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#164 Posted by zeemax on August 16, 2008 10:51:35 pm


Remember how the Falluja rebellion started?


Remember how the fallujah "rebellion" ended? the marines sent a couple of thousand jihadis to allah's strip clib...

#163 Posted by ijaz_gul on August 16, 2008 10:45:14 pm


Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of the article, the President may, by public notification, declare that this article shall cease to be operative


Operative clause...

#158 Posted by tahmed32,

burning girls schools ... because there were pakistani soldiers hiding in them ... you chose to disbelieve even the terrorists themselves!!

Even though this is an obvious attempt at obfuscation to avoid the 9/11 proof question, but nevertheless ...

I am not believing 'the terrorists'. I'm believing the PPP Member National Assembly from Matta (Swat), Alauddin who appeared several times on nationwide TV saying Pakistan Army was using schools as bunkers.

This is nothing new. Army obviously uses any available government structure to use instead of sitting under tents in the open as sitting ducks. Remember how the Falluja rebellion started? Americans had taken over a girls school.

Watch 03:10 onwards:

http://pkpolitics.com/2008/07/31/capital-talk-31-july-2008/

'Article 370 Temporary provisions with respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir'

2. If the concurrence of the Government of the State referred to in paragraph (ii) of sub-clause (b) of clause (1) or in second proviso to sub-clause (d) of that clause be given before the Constituent Assembly for the purpose of framing the Constitution of the State is convened, it shall be placed before such Assembly for such decision as it may take thereon.

3. Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of the article, the President may, by public notification, declare that this article shall cease to be operative or shall be operative only with such exceptions and modifications and from such date as he may notify:

Provided that the recommendation of the Constituent Assembly of the State referred to in clause (2) shall be necessary before the President issues such a notification.

I hope this clarifies. In fact it is an article that ensures seperatism. My question is, why temporary only for Kashmir? and what of areas India absorbed after 1949?

Its a long legal case I discussed already with Dost Mittar few years ago. Article 370 is based on malafide intentions as was the 1948 Kashmir Resolution. It was based on the insistence of ANC. Ar that time the Hindu Right wanted nothing to do with Kashmir.

Re: # 47

The IUML is a party that represents muslims - a minority, and hence cannot be compared to the BJP, a mainstream party that thrives on MAJORITARIAN politics - a far more dangerous movement. There are several other examples of parties representing small interests, such as the PMK and TDP. Majoritarian, and alarmist politics, gather votes quickly, but have no real ideology oriented to the future.

Re: # 49

This is hardly a national news, and if you want to give it publicity, you will have to give us links.

#157 Posted by tahmed32,

one blurred video? i think there is not one but several videos

There may be a hundred videos. You Sir, being a great and honorable supporter of law and order, would surely not be unaware videos etc are inadmissible as proof in any ordinary court of law, let alone as basis for invading other countries.

Now, my question again. Do you have proof? Just give me one, or admit you have none.

#155 Posted by dost_mittar,

good comment.

Well, I don't normally use terms like "heart", when we are actually talking about mind, but i did, so let me explain.


The scenarios that i gave you show how ego and its inferiority complex can shadow your intellect. A very simple illustration though. By "Heart" I was referring to sub-conscious intellect, Islam rules your ego, not your conscious or sub-conscious intellect.

Eventually, what is important is not hardware of brain, not even its circuits that have acuired capability to process fine logic but the psychological environment that lets it use that processing capability or not. Ego is the iedntity or attachment to anything that blocks you from seeing things properly. It may be something you can not even figure out.

What Islam does is, it forces illusion and lies on you, when you live with them for long you get attached to them and your intelect is not even allowed to work against this ego.

It is similar to what happenes to animals, if you chain them by thin rope since their young age, they won't try to break free when they become adult and capable of breaking that rope. They won't try, this rope is now part of their environment, their collective identity.

bakiTeesara,

little lies you spread little lies they spread for their (IBN) masters in London and DC.

Aug. 16 is a lie:


By Deepika Mitra
Font Scale:
Posted 19 June 2008 @ 09:47 pm GMT

It's high time Shantic folks needs to be paid "Dostum in Rectum" way to defend India and its civilization. Ask your self why Tehelkas are having their meets in London. What Balasaheb conveyed is common sense to all.

to correct myself - you are not being fooled by terrorists (who make no apologies for 9/11, no bones about burning girls schools, or for their numerous attacks on pakistanis or for their blatant attempts at taking advantage of pakistan's political crisis to try and carve out a bit of pakistan for themselves). you chose to disbelieve even the terrorists themselves!!

zeemax #119 one blurred video? i think there is not one but several videos from al qaeda taking responsibilty for 9/11. i mentioned one such video i saw only a month or so ago on geo - where the pakistani man refused to accept even al qaeda's proud claim to have perpetrated 9/11 (saying basically that the al qaeda rep was lying in order to gain some advantage!!).

when the first girls school was blown up in swat, i recall urstruly saying this was probably because there were pakistani soldiers hiding in them. now that scores of schools have been burnt or blown up - what is the excuse?

you may chose to be fooled by terrorists. but the rest of the world is not fooled by them.

Re: # 152
from

INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS TIMES
India | Saturday, 16 August 2008
Reported by: Deepika Mitra

pinku#149:

"Islam try to rule over land not hearts of people."

The rest of your post could be used as an exhibit to show how Islam rules the hearts of its people, namely the Muslims. It is never supposed to rule the hearts of non-muslims; if anything it is supposed to strike terror in their hearts until they accept its supremacy.

satyamvada#144:

I saw your video. And while this guy may be extreme, the very fact that he is allowed to speak like that on Pakistan TV shows that there is a sizeable receptive audience for such talke. Now, do you want people listening to such tapes to be part of your country?

satyamvada#145:

Mao was not a disciple of Confucius and his teachings were banned during much of the communist rule. It is only recent that Confucius is being rehabilitated in China and rapidly so. So, it is quite possible that China will be a harmonious society twenty years from now.

Re: # 151

"Fight fire with fire," is what Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray meant to say when he urged Hindus to form suicide squads to take on the Muslims suicide squads. However, his rhetorics bombed when both the secular Congress as well as political allies the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the RSS criticized him for his insensitive remark.


In an editorial in Saamna, Shiv Sena's mouthpiece, Thackeray said a "Hindu bomb" was needed to counter the "Muslim bomb." Thackeray's rhetorics was related to the bomb attacks in theaters in Thane, Vashi and Panvel earlier this month and the subsequent arrests of those suspected to be involved in planting the bombs. While the police managed to defuse the bomb planted in Vashi in time, bombs exploded in Thane and Panvel, injuring several people.


Initial police investigations revealed that the suspects belonged to the Sanatan Sanstha and the Hindu Jana Jagriti Samiti outfits.


Though the Hindu radical outfits have denied having any hand in the bomb attacks, yet, investigations revealed that the attacks were targeted against a controversial Marathi play Aamhi Pachpute, which was being staged in Thane and Vashi and was ridiculing Hindu deities. The attack on the Panvel theater was targeted at the screening of the movie Jodhaa Akbar, which, some Hindu hardliners claimed, portrayed the Hindu community in poor light.


Criticizing the two outfits, Thackeray said the two Hindu bodies should have "held talks with the playwright or the director on the vexed points" instead of orchestrating "ridiculous and stupid" bomb attacks that left several Hindus injured.


Thackeray said he was "happy" that the bombs were made by Hindus, but was saddened by the fact that innocent Hindus were injured. He also criticized the attackers for planting such a weak bomb. "No one but a Hindu could be responsible for a bomb that caused such little injury and was such a wasteful enterprise," he said.


"Think big," the Shiv Sena chief said. "[You] should prepare to meet the bigger task of combating Islamic fundamentalism."


"A Marathi bank clerk will lose his job by indulging in small-time misappropriation. If you want to practice corruption, then be a Ketan Parekh or a Harshad Mehta," he said.


"The need of the hour is to plant a strong bomb in Bangladeshi bastis (slums) that have mushroomed in Thane and elsewhere in Maharashtra," Thackeray said.


"The threat of Islamic terror in India is rising. The only way Islamic terror can be tackled was by unleashing Hindu terror. It is time to set up Hindu suicide squads to ensure safety of the Hindu society and to protect the nation," the firebrand leader said, quoting Manusmriti to prove his point: "Retaliate if under attack. Whether your father or a learned Brahmin attacks you, an attack is an attack."


"The Hindus were safe during the Mughal invasion only because the Maratha warrior Shivaji had the courage to raise his swords against them," he added.


However, Thackeray's rhetorics did not go down well with powerful BJP ally, which condemned his remark.


According to BJP vice president M. Venkaiah Naidu, Thackeray should be reasonable as the people "should not take law into their hands."


It's duty of the government to counter terror. There are more democratic methods to address the problem of terrorism," Naidu said.


Advising Thackeray to abide by the rule of law, Naidu said BJP believes in principles of "democracy and the Constitution."


Hindu nationalist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) also condemned Thackeray's inflammatory remarks, saying Hindu scriptures do not endorse terrorist activities or violence.


Congress also slammed the hardline Hindu party, saying the comments made by Thackeray were "subversive, anti-national and prejudicial to the secular fabric of the nation."


"The Congress strongly condemns the remarks said to have been made by Mr. Bal Thackeray with regard to the formation of suicide squads. This is a clear call not only to lawlessness and violence but will be also the death knell of peaceful democracy," Congress spokesperson Jayanthi Natarajan said.


"We condemn this irresponsible remark and reject it with contempt," she said.


Meanwhile, Maharashtra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, though not directly condemning Thackeray's comments, said the arrest of the alleged terrorists belonging to the Hindu outfits proved that "criminals don't belong to any religion."


ABOUT SHIV SENA


Shiv Sena (Shiva's Army) is a Hindu right-wing extremist party that was linked in the past to waves of mob violence in Maharashtra and held power in Bombay from 1995 to 2000.


Under the garb of nationalism, Shiv Sena has long advocated attacks against minority communities like Muslims and recently was in the news for attempting to stir up native pride by demanding that more should be done to promote the rights of "local" people in the state rather than "outsiders" and threatening to oust the immigrants from the state.

Re: # 89
Tahmed, you can take my silence to indicate it was late night in Australia. I still do not believe the BJP plantd those bombs. People like Dm don't need any proof when it comes to the BJP, but want proof of guilt every time it is a terrorist act committed by radical Islamist groups.

"Only option is to live the way Taliban wants you to live."

Huh. How did you reach that conclusion, pinku?!

It's right to say that Muslims - no matter where and how they live - are committed to Islam and to its success over others, but there is no one type of Islam they all subscribe to. In fact, they will constantly fight among themselves, in their own ways, to establish their specific type of Islam.

That Taliban type of Islam is so visible is merely because "Taliban-type" of Muslims are willing to fight the hardest and the longest for their Islam.

The extraordinarily high degree of intelllect used around such political topics seems to suggest as if these issues are of divine nature.

Kashmir is a land issue not political issue. Islam try to rule over land not hearts of people.

Many people will be surprised that how come intelligent and educated Indian muslims like Murad Baig can say that Kashmir should get indepenence but will not be able to answer, "why they think so?".

It is simple, these people have learned a lot from environment, their mind can understand what is right or wrong but they can not still side with anything other than Islam. And Islam doesn't care about right/wrong or anything else. It knows only one thing: expansion in terms of land and number of people.

Let's talk about Indian muslims who would like Kashmir to be separated and see why they think so???

Scenario-1
===========
So imagine this scnario, say you tell Murad Baig (and other muslims Dost Mittar mentioned) that muslims in India will be butchered if you separate Kashmir and will have second or third class citizenship forever once that happens. Still they will say that Kashmir should go away. Why? because first and most important things is land, Islam needs it badly. People they can produce in any number whenever they want. So answer is because internally they feel it helps Islam.


Scenario-2
==========
Say you ask such muslims that only Kashmir's land is given to Islam and a Islamic state is created but those Kashmiris are absorbed in India, would you be happy? They will say yes. Because Islam got the land:-)

Now you should do it after doping them with some drug so you can get honest answers.

The reason:
===========

Most people do not understand the reason. They are troubled how an intelligent indian muslim can think so, and even if he can think how come he doesn't feel shame in saying so? Dost Mittar is a little confused he feels if he was an Indian muslim he would have said Kashmir should remain with India (he would have felt asamed that being an Indian and a muslim you can ask separation based on Islam).

What DOst Mitar doesn't understand is that unless you confront your coplexes the intellect never helps. So an inteligent person can have even a high degree of a complex than a not so intelligent one. Such intelligent muslims do not have superiority coplex. They have a a very high inferiority complex. This bounds their ego and they sub-consciously want to help Islam, which is their group ego. Now if Islam represent more bad things than good, they will end up helping bad things, doesn't matter how good they themselves want to be.

Future:
=======

If people like dost-mittar simply side with such things on the basis of "see they will never accept, they are muslims, they need separate land, if they live together", then you are loooking for more future surprises.

Based on the psychology I have given, the intelligent biased muslims are capable of supporting much more dangerously wrong decisions and the group ego of Islam can never be satisfied. Only option is to live the way Taliban wants you to live. And everybody people in Europe/USA should then live like that.

Re: # 74; tahmed sahib

nb .... a BJP fanatic??? ..... who would have thought eh?!

HP sahib:

All I would add is that if ISI & Co. is not trying to get the leverage out of the situation, then they need to be fired up. It is their business, no different than CIA or RAW, to create unfair advantage for the establishment or their bosses. Don't you think that it is a game of chess, really?

Bajaur military operation: No food, no shelter for displaced people

By Manzoor Ali Shah

PESHAWAR: Thousands of displaced people from restive Bajaur Agency, where armed clashes between security forces and militants are going on, are reaching Peshawar in abject conditions and facing severe shelter, food and other problems, people reaching here told Daily Times on Saturday.

The displaced people reaching Peshawar are facing great difficulties in getting houses on rent and many families have returned to the agency after failing to find residences in the city as the property dealers and owners have doubled the rents keeping in view the situation of the people.

DM wrote: There could be many alternatives. I am a believer in the Confucian concept of a harmonious society, whereas the British Parliamentary system is based on confrontational politics

Amazing :). So China is a 'harmonious society' now.

So your constitution will be the 'holy book of Confucious' eh ? :) But why should your Confucious book be any more
valid than a holy book from the mid-east ?

aah - that "harmonius society" where you can go to wagah , hold a candle, sway and sing with kuldip nayar. Maybe
Arundhati Roy will be there and sign a book for you.

Dostmittar,

You outdo yourself in inanities time and time again.
Thankfully people like you are not in the IFS.

For the past 60 years, its the folks in the valley asking for more and more, now for the first time, its the other way and demands are being made on them to give back land to Hindus.
This is indeed a dramatic turn of events and reflective of situation.

Btw, look at the quality of this Pak strategist
on Independence day :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_naVAiFByxw

Watch all the related vides for more humor and note
what he speaks is same as the usual delusions of YLH,Tahmed etc. This kind of hate talk would never be on the TV of any decent society,but then we are talking of pakistan here.

This fellow is the elite of Pakistan society !
Remember how Musharraf said that Pakis eat cows wheras
Indian worship cows. This is the level of talk of the self styled CEO/President of a country.

There is not even basic honesty, introspection and acknowledgement of facts. Its always about anger and finding someone else to blame and abuse.

No other country in the world suffers from such massive
societal delusions.

The ISI Connection

I have finally found the ISI link in this issue. (btw, I do believe that ISI helped broker the India-US nuke deal too.)

The diplomats and the military establishment in Pakistan are not happy with US-India nuke deal but the US had forced them to keep a low profile and not oppose the deal publicly or lobby other nations against the deal. After the 18th Feb elections, it seemed that Pakistan establishment realized that until Musharraf is sidelined, they will remain bound by his commitment to the US on this issue. There was no urgency however as it seemed that the Left and Congress disagreements on the nuke deal had blocked the deal anyway.

The situation changed after the Mohni Mohni Sarkar was able to drop the left and positioned itself to finally sign the nuke deal. This development made Pakistani establishment go in overdrive. Their first challenge was to convince the ISI to drop its support of the nuke deal. As I mentioned above the ISI had brokered the US-India deal. The Pakistani establishment blackmailed ISI by issuing an order that the ISI would be placed under Rahman Malik, the well known NO security expert in Pakistan. That made the ISI come to its senses and the ISI developed the strategy to oppose the nuke deal and decided to use its surrogates in the Kashmir Valley.

Mehbooba Mufti was in Pakistan just before this whole issue came to surface. She met Zardari(another ISI man) and the top military brass in Pakistan( Zardari called her his sister as he was reluctant to disclose his relations with another woman after Benazir’s death just a few months ago). Mehbooba (cute name) paid a courtesy visit to the ISI headquarters, located under the ruins of Lal Masjid.

She was the CM and had originally approved the grant of the land. When the issue came up in the Kashmir cabinet meeting after the CM position was passed on to Ghulam Nabi Azad. She and her party changed their position by following the ISI strategy. Omar abdullah, another ISI man in Kashmir and her party made it a public issue and some other ISI sponsored elements in the Kashmir Valley joined her party.

The Ghulam Azad ministry was brought down but not before he was forced to cancel the grant of Land. He presumably acted on his party, Congress’s high command advice from Delhi (ISI controls the Congress president-She is non Hindu).

While the ISI sponsored a protest movement in the Valley, it also approached the BJP high command (BJP President is a former Pakistani, a Sindhi) to stir up the Hindu majority Jammu area. Now the Kashmir valley is on fire and all Indians are fighting over their new strategy in Kashmir including letting it go to Pakistan. (The ISI would never allow this to happen because if it does happen, the ISI will have to find another state in India, it can use to stir up political turmoils in India at will.)

On the Pakistan side, the ISI forced its man Zardari to begin impeachment proceedings against Musharraf to drop him completely and open the way for Pakistan to launch its campaign in the international media against the US-India nuke deal!

The turmoil in Kashmir and spreading of Hindu-Muslim violence in other parts of India would allow the Pakistan foreign ministry to start lobbying other government and some circle in the US to block the nuke deal by portraying India as an unstable state which is not ready to handle the delicate issue of importing nuke plants. This campaign would further show that India will use the nuke technology to launch attacks against its neighbors. The ISI’s next step is to force new national elections in India and maneuver results that bring in a hung parliament thus making it difficult to form a government in the center. An increase in communal violence is expected before the elections too.

Would the ISI strategy work? We don’t know yet! but all the signs show that so far the Indians are following the ISI script to the letter and the ISI would be able to scuttle the nuke deal between U.S. and India.

The irony is that after the great success in brokering the deal, the ISI now would help break it too. This would be another feather in the ISI’s crown and they will show this off around the Lal Masjid and in the FATA areas to tease the US army and the CIA there.

Dost sahib:

I know why you are saying article 370 has very little to do with Center-State relationship or devolution of power. In the part article 370 created separation. I am talking about integration, where Indian Kashmir is equal partner in the Union. South Asian economic union needs to be between India with Indian Kashmir, Pakistan with Pakistani Kashmir and other members of SAARC. Yes, I agree this is the future, but present is certainly not what ISI & Co. plans.

anil:

Article 370 has very little to do with the centre-state relations in general. Such an article won't stand even in the European union; it's a unique formula to maintain the demographic balance in the State.

If in future, there is a Europe like union in south asia, then, maybe, article 370 may become subject to change as part of a larger south asian entity.

anil:

Article 370 has very little to do with the centre-state relations in general. Such an article won't stand even in the European union; it's a unique formula to maintain the demographic balance in the State.

If in future, there is a Europe like union in south asia, then, maybe, article 370 may become subject to change as part of a larger south asian entity.

Re: # 127

Kaal:

"...With article 370 in place, there can be no integration of any consequence.

I suspect Kashmiri Muslims don't WANT integration with Hindus. But I may be wrong...."

First on article 370. I have mentioned it was a costly mistake, and not easy to remove. Unless it is reviewed in the wider Center-State devolution of power framework.

Regions develop economic integrations, EU has proven it don't you think?

Re: # 133

Sadna:

"...According to me, yes, Advani could have highlighted the Amarnath religious angle..."

I agree with you. Religious fault line is Pakistani view. Advani is certainly giving a new twist, because that will win him votes in the South also, which too has been affected by terrorism.

BJP's separatist and nationalist angle is not surprising, its RSS elements certainly will bring nationalism and fascism in the election to play.

Problem is that alternative and clear Indian Kashmir policies are not defined in India.

Dost sahib:

Indian Kashmir not being the poorest state should be a good enough reason for economic planners, don't you think?

Writing off a part of India, because founding fathers made mistakes is abdication of responsibilities. Please remember, the British general of Pakistani army refused to take Jinnah's order to march beyond the ceasefire line, and India did not send its forces till Pakistan got to ceasefire line. A lot more than what meets the eye got decided then.

It may not look like an economic problem, and rightly so. Could it be because you are refusing to see beyond obivious solutions?

Dost sahib:

"...and do you think that it is a "resolved issue"? ..."

You have asked a very different question, I hope you realize that. My emphasis is about ISI & Co trying to create a leverage, not "if it is resolved". If it was solved then why would I talk about India realizing mistakes, economic integration and social developments.

Yes, I do not believe in ISI & Co's solution of tearing Indian Kashmir out, which you seem to concede.

anil#123:

"No one should expect otherwise from ISI & Co to create leverage for themselves, after all they believe that Kashmir is unresolved issue."

...and do you think that it is a "resolved issue"? Then what are we talking about and why?

"HP and Ijaz sahibs know this reality too. What concerns me more is when Dost Sahib’s pass the judgment that Indian Kashmir should be separated. Why don’t Dos sahib’s think of great economic integration, even Pakistan’s Zardaris, Nawaz Sharifs and Musharrafs are talking."

I do not for a moment think that economics has anything to do with the Kashmir issue, my degree in Economics notwithstanding. No Kashmiri in his right mind would want to be a part of the country like Pakistan whose very passort makes you a candidate for suspicion almost anywhere in the world, which has fewer economic opportunities than India, where even religious freedoms are less than in India (no Indian Muslim has died when praying in a mosque, unlike what routinely happens in Pakistan), where provinces have much fewer rights than Indian States, where Kashmiriyat has as much chance as it has in the Pakistani Kashmir (none!) and where dictators rule more often than elected leaders. It has all to do with the attraction for the Ummah for Muslims. Indians can keep their collective head buried in the sand and not see the reality but they will do so only at their peril.

"Indian policy needs to recognize it, and start economic integration of Indian Kashmir with the rest of India, so that they also feel the benefits of Today’s India, and dream of being part of Indian dream."

If you had made this statement with respect to the separatists in the North Eastern states, I would have agreed with you. But Kashmir is now very well integrated with India, or at least as much integrated as it wants to, a greater integration would require Kashmiris to let Indian businesses buy assets in Kashmir for doing business there, which is currently not permitted under Article 370.

Kashmir is not the poorest state in India and it is the lowest or one of the lowest in terms of people below poverty line.

if BDs can have ration cards in West Bengal then i am sure himachalis can have second one in jammu.

when jammu & ladakh pop is more than 2/3rd of total, with right jerry-mandering you can get state 2/3 rd votes in assembly for amending the j&k constitution.

d_m
According to me, yes, Advani could have highlighted the Amarnath religious angle and talked of Hindu religious rights without being disqualified. I see it as somewhat significant that he didn't, but I don't know how long the restraint will last.

DM Ji

So in India, one cannot say that Kashmir is an out and out Hindu-Muslim issue?!!

This is ridiculous, but is it true?

#129 Posted by dost_mittar on August 16, 2008 12:00:27 pm


Someone has pointed out that it also needs a resolution by the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly.


That would be ijaz "indian-israel radars in Kyrgyzstan are being used to jam all frequencies in pakiland" gul...

take that with a pinch of salt...

sadna#122:

Do you expect Advani to openly say that it is a Hindu-Muslim issue and get his party disqualified by the Election Commission? Even Modi was careful to always use the words "terrorists" and not Muslims. They will use the coded language and let their underlings spread the "true" message at the ground level.

Actions speak louder than words; he did not attend the all-party meeting called by the Prime Minister.

arjun#120:

Do you or anyone else know to which of the three categories of amendments does Article 370 fall?

Someone has pointed out that it also needs a resolution by the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly.

stuka#121:

I thought that I had written even more useless ones, but they may have escaped your notice. :)

"Look, even if Kashmir Valley is to be given to Pakistan, it should be done at our choosing"

Who gives up anything without any pressure? It is unimportant whether a solution is found under pressure or without it, as long as it resolves the problem permanently.

I used to be somewhat reluctant in suggesting giving away Kashmir because of its potential catastrophic effects on Indian Muslims; however, it seems that most of them don't seem to be bothered by it, so they probably don't expect too much negative fallout for themselves.

anil ji, those who see integration as the way forward must push for the removal of article 370 with everything they have.

With article 370 in place, there can be no integration of any consequence.

I suspect Kashmiri Muslims don't WANT integration with Hindus. But I may be wrong.

anil
Yup. Indians need to be more stout-hearted and stoic than they appear on chowk.com.

BJ2:

Article 370, no doubt was a costly mistake. It cannot be undone that easily, however, it probably can be reconsidered within the greater framework of Center-State devolution of power. This would allow India to come up with a single consitutional framework. There is another thorny issue of separate personal laws, that mistake too needs to be corrected in a wider framework. The U.S. constitution has been re-interpreted to outlaw slavery, which was earlier constitutional. Democracies are good in reviewing its previous acts.

Article 370 is a part of the Indian Constitution. The Indian Constitution is a highly malleable document - as proven in no uncertain terms during 1975-77. It gets modified quite often to suit politicians' whims. Its provisions regarding J&K consent requirements on dropping 370 can be also dropped if the Indian leaders have the political will to do so.

However, both the Congressis and the BJP have a vested interest in keeping the pot of hate boiling while paying lip service to the farce that in India is called "secularism"! Article 370 is the surest guarantor of that hate.

Dost Sahib:

Indian government has been quite involved in all the mistakes and manipulations you mention in your essay. Indian parliament needs to apologize to the Sikhs and Indian Kashmiris to start.

These mistakes are not fatal to India. Given the current situation, it is not even in Pakistan’s interest to pick a fight with India.

Pakistani mindset needs to accept, and let Indian Kashmiris accept that India is going to play a dominant role in South Asia in reorganizing the economic and social structure.

There is very little Pakistanis can do other than what their ISI & Co. is doing. Their acts bring reactionary forces out in India. Indian fabric will tolerate ISI & Co. and Indian reactionary. They forget that right now it is Pakistani fabric that is more strained. No one should expect otherwise from ISI & Co to create leverage for themselves, after all they believe that Kashmir is unresolved issue. HP and Ijaz sahibs know this reality too. What concerns me more is when Dost Sahib’s pass the judgment that Indian Kashmir should be separated. Why don’t Dos sahib’s think of great economic integration, even Pakistan’s Zardaris, Nawaz Sharifs and Musharrafs are talking.

There is no mood in the world to create another nation on religious lines, and that too an Islamic nation. Sloganeering aside, Indian Kashmiri leaders understand this too; otherwise Mehbooba would not have been a Chief Minister, Yasin Malik would not break his fast unto death. You and I had expected BJP to use Amarnath issue, and they are doing it, and they may even come to power by doing so. May be Mehbooba and others like to deal with BJP more than Congress.

Ras sahib proposes something he calls "self-rule" not separate country as the solution. Nothing in India can be called "self-rule" any longer, but this is a sign of openness from the Pakistani side. Also in India, time is coming to review center-state relationship; greater devolution of power for all states, including Indian Kashmir is yes. Pakistan still has longer way to go than India to accept ground realities in Indian Kashmir, but they seem to be making progress.


Indian policy needs to recognize it, and start economic integration of Indian Kashmir with the rest of India, so that they also feel the benefits of Today’s India, and dream of being part of Indian dream. It certainly looks like that there is something lacking among Indians.

d_m
Advani said it was not a Hindu vs Muslim issue, not a Jammu vs Kashmir issue, it is a separatists vs nationalists issue. Which is benign on the face of it but we have to see whether the message remains benign throughout the rigours of a general election campaign.

Dost Mittar: This is one of the most useless articles you have written. Look, even if Kashmir Valley is to be given to Pakistan, it should be done at our choosing. Not under blackmail. It should be done after the Kashmiris have been decimated to the extent that their coming generations remember Indian Army just as we Hindus remember Nadir Shah and Abdali. The first stage is also to inflict pain on sympathizers of Kashmiri Muslims (even if they are Hindu) as they should suffer in the same way that the Kashmiri Hindus have suffered.

#113 Posted by ijaz_gul on August 16, 2008 9:46:43 am


In the legal Battle, 370 is a manifestation of India's double policy and hence a loophole. Without the consent of Kshmiris it cannot ge annulled.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India#Amendm ents

Article 368 of the Constitution provides that amendments to the Constitution can take place in three ways. These are;

* By simple majority of the Parliament: Amendments in this category can be made by a simple majority of members present and voting, before sending them for the President's assent.
* By special majority of the Parliament: Amendments can be made in this category by a two-thirds majority of the total number of members present and voting, which should not be less than half of the total membership of the house.
* By special majority of the Parliament and ratification by at least half of the state legislatures by special majority. After this, it is sent to the President for his assent.

#95 Posted by tahmed32, #90

I missed this:

When thug musharraf proudly claims he violated the constitution on nov 3, i believe him. When thug ben laden proudly claims he was behind 9/11, i believe him ...

When thug musharraf proudly claimed he violated the constitution on nov 3, you believed him without reading the Constitution. I didn't need to hear musharraf for evidence that he violated the Constitution. Neither did most Pakistanis.

And you say you believe "thug ben laden" proudly claiming he was behind 9/11, and you believe him blindly on the basis of a blurred 'Fat Bin Ladin Video' ... no other evidence.

If you do, please present it. And that's a challenge not only to you but the entire Chowk.

DM ji, you probably meant 'blinfolded law'. Justice is a controversial concept.

"there is no consensus in its favour even in the Indian polity."

And it would be wrong to 'blame' Dr Manmohan Singh for not being 'strong enough' to address the problem that arises. The problem (for those who think there is a problem) is far deeper and broader. It is, first and foremost, within us.

Chacha Zee,

Your #84 is truly fantastic.

and..... you are 52 years old.

(I know a 26 year old aadhaa-paagal).

eklavya#112:

I believe in the laws being enforced by a blindfolded justice. If India considers Kashmiris to be Indian, then they must be entitled to the rights of every Indian citizen.

I do think that Article 370 was a monumental blunder, among many such blunders, by our leadership of the time. But it is too late to do anything about it. Never mind the separatists in Kashmir, there is no consensus in its favour even in the Indian polity.

jang:

The opportunity I see is for the BJP to repeat its performance of 1989 and exploit this situation to the hilt. And I have no problem with the Jammu people venting their anger and doing a blockade as everyone else does in India. But, then, it was the duty of the Central Govt. to remove that blockade (which they have belatedly done) and to subsidize airlift of the Valley produce in the meantime.

ijaz bhai, article 370 is deeply symptomatic of the great flaw in Indic thinking, and hence loophole is a good way to describe it.

Thanks for the information about Baloch Sardar Khosa. May be he was something like Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan (even though the Gaffar Khan was most likely religiously conservative, like Gandhi).

For these people, before they accepted Islam politically, Pakistan could have held little interest.

In the legal Battle, 370 is a manifestation of India's double policy and hence a loophole. Without the consent of Kshmiris it cannot ge annulled.
EKHLAVA,
Yes your comment on Balochistan is valid. The then Baloch Sardar Khosa who was a communist athiest went ruuning to Maulana Azad and told him in explicit terms that he wanted to be part of the Indiam Dominion. Maulana Azad convinced him that his future was with Pakistan. It was pursuant to this that the Great Baloch jirga was held for accession with Pakistan. Later Khosa decanted and accepted Islam from Maulana Sindhi.
But all this is another story.

Zee,

There is no real reason for ordinary Balochis, or Sindhis or Punjabis to want independence from Pakistan! With Kashmiri Muslims we have a different story.

Yes, DM ji tells us that even in India that same situation applies between Hindus in Himachal Pradesh (and some other areas) and the rest of India. DM ji probably knows but ignores that those are entirely different situations than between Kashmiri Muslims and rest of Indians/Hindus. There are absolutely no significant problems between Himanchali Hindus and Hindus from the rest of India.

DM ji mixes up because he remains our DM ji! :)

-------------

guru bhai, I must protest, again. We are lucky to have a great man like Dr Manmohan Singh as our PM! This problem is not HIS problem, nor can we expect him to solve it. It is a problem of you, and me, and DM ji. We and we alone, as ordinary people, with our own unique preferences, are to blame (if blame is to be apportioned. May be we can blame the class of 'politicians' but politicians arise from amongst us.).

#110 Posted by VRV,

I can only laugh at this.

Zee,

That's BS (self-determination 3-way option of azadi, merger with India or Pakistan). Azadi is never an option as per the dispute btw India and Pakistan.

The basis for dispute in this Indian Princely state is that the King acceded to India when he faced aggression from irregulars from Pakistan dominion.

As per India Independene Act this Pricnely state got to go to Pakistan based on demography but Pakistani irregulars problem khada kardiya tha. Hence India came into picture. Else Kashmir wud have been urs. U guys cudnt wait till it happened.

Much water flowed in Indus since this happened.

We cant follow the UN route for the solution coz the state in no longer what it was in 1948. India is in a position to say no to the 'solutions' proferred by Pakistan now. It cud get much worse in future when India gains more strength in terms of economic clout and nuclear might.

So there.

this is the right time to scrap 370 and settle 370K armed forces families around all the temples and shrines. unkil is actually winking to india. but manmohan buddha hogaya hain. Kashmiri Shantists ingrates only deserve Dostum-In-Rectum treatment. A Sanatani Putin will arise soon to do this job of integrating India.

#106 Posted by Eklavya,

I think there's a huge misunderstanding over this thing about Kashmir becoming part of Pakistan. Pakistan has always stood for the right of self-determination, and that is it's stand still. Kashmiris can decide to remain with India, go independant, or merge with Pakistan.

Some people have equated Kashmir with Baluchistan. I believe if Baluchistan really wanted to go their own way anywhere near the way Kashmir does, Pakistan would not suppress it. But it isn't like that in Baluchistan. It's the worst feudal society with a small separatist group controlled by a few Sardars with gas reserves. Kashmir isn't. There's no comparison.

There's also been talk of buying property by Indians in Kashmir and vice versa. Pakistanis can't buy property in the Northern Areas because these are disputed territories (I wanted to in Hunza), but the Northern Area people CAN buy property anywhere in Pakistan. That's the difference.

"I think that the current problems are purely home grown"

DM sahib where you see problems, i see opportunity to move polity. There is nothing wrong with politics..let everyone play it to their hearts content. Commies do blockades, gujjars do blocakades, kashmiris do valley bandh for various important issues like danish cartoons, its the way we do things to highlight what is important to us. This is the style of lively politics of India. People are not stupid, they do these things because they are important to them, and yes they also use ISI in their games whenever useful.

I know you are from a quasi-scietific background (economics), so consider the problem of finding optimal solution. Sometimes you tend to settle in a local optimum, which is a false solution. So the right thing to do is disturb the system so that the search for the more optimum solution again begins. Its fantastic that the Jammu and Kashmir folks are attempting to resolve their internal issues, we should all welcome this opportunity. The only thing we should do is that the disturbance is enough to move the solution over the brink of the local optimum, else it will again settle in the same old solution, and the effort is therefore not wasted.

We should definately seek help of ISI in this matter, they are not enemies, they are also interested in a solution.

guru, yaar that abuse is unhelpful. We should try to fix problems peacefully.

----------

zee, Ijaz

Yes, zee! And I agree. The BEST option for Muslims right now is to NOT ask for the merger of Kashmir with Pakistan, and to 'respect' the LOC. That allows for greatest motivational engine for Muslims and capability against Hindus, and in general defense from all non-Muslims.

And this 'separation' is not a very new idea in Pakistan. HP, for instance, has always followed this appraoch. From Pakistan's pov it will be suicidal, especially right now, to allow outsiders to connect the two (unless Pakistan wants abandon all its past!). (Zee - remember - all such situations must be seen, by large majorities of outsiders, to be SEPARATE to keep others off balance.)

Ijaz:

Since you are the second person (after HP) to object to my reference to ISI, I went again to read if my statement could be misinterpreted; so this is what I said,

"The Pakistani army was busy fighting insurgents in its tribal areas along the Afghanistan border; the jihadis fighting the insurgency had lost crucial support and training camps in the Pakistan Administered Kashmir, and the ISI was busy playing internal power games in Islamabad."

It is clear that I am suggesting that the ISI has its priorities elsewhere and is not responsible for the troubles in Kashmir now. In any case, let me reiterate, I think that the current problems are purely home grown.

Yaar guru,

Why do you think anyone will c/p your roachmail and watch those URL's you keep c/p'ing and want them to watch?

That's quite typical of roaches when they're flipped on their backs and they flap their legs around but can't get straightened up to walk away - and they die flapping their legs.

Eklava,
Though it remains India's wish to merge the two, Pakistan never would.
Talibanisation is in fact Arabisation in the extreme Wahabi-Salafi mould. It crept into Pakistan due to the Mock Jehad of Afganistan and Pakistanis working in SA. CIA Dollars worked wonders in the interim to set up these jehadi factories.

Though Pakistan tried to replicate its experience of Afghanistan in Kashmir, the two were never merged.

Thats why the LOC has to remain quite despite provocations.
Zakrias reasoning just skims the surface.

#97 Posted by Eklavya,

Thanks. This writer is an extremely rational thinker. I guess Daily Times only publishes her to balance it's neo-con policy.

But have you thought about ijaz_gul's remark?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJG1z0jpwu4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i YKttCG44v4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BHWgAILP7I


http://www.youtu be.com/watch?v=Njs2xkXrB4Y

Kashmiri Omar Ga..du first lived in Sharad Pawar's flat when he started his college but then his ga.du dad bought one for him on Netaji Subhash Chandra Road (aka Marine drive). Lot of Kashmiris are in drug biz and are buying land in places such as Goa. Ingrate Kashmiris who are separatist should separate their undies which are also subsidized by GOI and start walking to Shantibad in Baki land before winter sets in. they will get royal treatment similar to one they recd in 48. Kashmiris need to be freed from India and not Kashmir. These guys do not even pay income tax. If you scratch their ancestary you would realize that the most ga..dus and baniyatic people converted to Shanti for their own protection and material well being.

Is our friend Pandit Mandar Multankar this guy http://www.youtube.com/v/IeNz9ZhQBW4

"my problem is with the politicians who are exploiting the situation to consolidate their vote banks."

The only people we should have problems with are those who want politicians to not be politicians. Who want to create a society which will be at peace when politicians (of one specific community?) are angels.

-------------

Pathaab? We know Parthaab. Again, the question is: Where is Pranay Rupani?

#93 Posted by VRV,

I saw a surprising remark by nb that Kashmiris can leave without their land. This line of thought is repulsive, if not downright disgustingly naive.

I see you belong to the same category.

vrv, dm ji

All this is ok with dm ji and some Hindus like him, but I am personally shocked. And if I didn't have an inkling, I am sure most Hindus haven't thought of any of this earlier either. To South Indian Hindus this issue may have been even more remote.

But just because Hindus have been unaware or unconcerned, it doesn't mean the sitaution is not VERY VERY DANGEROUS situation. In terms of its implications, it is far worse than zealous Muslim leaguers and supporters staying back in India and being granted high positions in government by Nehru.

Before this situation turns totally unmanageable in some hands, it MUST be corrected.

We should be afraid for what lies in store if we close our eyes right now.


--------------------

ijaz_gul, zee

Did you see the following article? It makes addersses that same concern, and makes the argument that this Pakistani diffidence is unwarranted. -

Pro-Kashmir, anti-Taliban —Rafia Zakaria

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008816story_16-8-2008_pg3_ 3

nb:

I have no problem with the people of Jammu protesting against the government buckled down; my problem is with the politicians who are exploiting the situation to consolidate their vote banks.

As fegards Surat bombings, I do not have any evidence (but do read parthab's post#37). But there is strong circumstantial evidence that the Surat 'bombs' were planted. With the record of Indians in this respect, it requires a huge leap of faith to expect that they were able to discover all 20 or so bombs without even one of them going off.

#90 When thug musharraf proudly claims he violated the constitution on nov 3, i believe him. When thug ben laden proudly claims he was behind 9/11, i believe him.

in both cases, like i said, there is ample additional evidence that corroborates what they say.

i recall a pakistani tv discussant who refused to accept an al qaeda spokesmen's repetition of ownership for 9/11 even after they played the video as part of the discussion on geo.

#88 Posted by ijaz_gul,

I haven't heard that song, but I get what you mean.

Hmmm ...

Zee,

We know each other's viewpoint. So I dont like to argue but make a suggestion. This way we can get rid of our respective floatsam.

Pakistan can get rid of all the willing minorities (Hindu, Sikhs, Isais and prolly Mohajirs), Ahmadis and India can exchange them for separatist Kashmiris.

U can get superior race Muslims and get rid of unwanted muttarwas and minorities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSev8AbB2SA&feature=related

#87 Posted by tahmed32,

... the proof that 9/11 was done by al qaeda is there - i have seen even al qaeda reps have publicly and proudly claimed credit on TV for this.

So you believe 'terrorists' beyond a shadow of doubt? They must be the most reliable and credible then - certainly more than anyone in history I've known.

Fine. Now let's not distract DM's good thread :)

nb: i take your silence to mean that you have realized the error of your blind support for BJP. Congratulations on this realization.

Zeemax,
Its not intriguing. Heard that song by Kenny Rogers,'gamblers advice to his son'

Know when to walk away
Know when to run
Never count your money when you'r sitting at the table,
there be time enough to do it;
when the deal is done.

zeemax: we must stay above the level of extremists. the proof that 9/11 was done by al qaeda is there - i have seen even al qaeda reps have publicly and proudly claimed credit on TV for this.

to say that al qaeda did not do it is to turn one's face away from clear evidence the way those opposed to evolution do.

#83 Posted by ijaz_gul

Its just that the issues of terrorism have eclipsed freedom movements where interests of USA are not served. Pakistan's hibernation on the issue is to make sure that Kashmir never links up with terrorism and therefore the pause.

This is an intriguing comment. No one has mentioned anything like this before.

Do continue ...

FV has risen from slumber and iloged the petition of some acdemics from nowherepura!

Whereas another Indian Muslim i.e Murad Baig claimed that Valley is self-sufficient and therfore desreves independence

but

the ilog talks abt the economic blockade that criipled the lives there.

Though there's an attempt to block traffic to/from Valley recently it was not that it sustained for many days. It's as if the Valley was never under 24 hr curfew for weeks an weeks together. It's a lie that's being used by separaists and pro-separatists like Mahboobas and FVs.

The Recommendations as enlisted in the petition:

Recommendations:

1. The Government of India should immediately end the economic blockade and ensure that goods and services, including emergency medical and food supplies, can move in both directions along the Srinagar-Jammu border.

A: There's no bloackade and Governor himself ensured it.

2. The Government of India should open the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road, a promise repeatedly reiterated by successive governments of India and Pakistan, though never implemented. This would ensure that the current crisis situation is not repeated as well as mark a concrete step forward in addressing injustices and the peace process.

A: It's the sovereign decision of GoI along with GoP to decide.

3. Take immediate action to stop the violence against the Muslim minority in Jammu and bring those responsible to justice.

A: Why nobody talks abt violence against Hindu-minoty in the valley for years? Btw, there're some instances of hut burning by 'some' miscreants in Jammu (isolated). Hindus and Muslims are together in Jammu as it's evident from news reports.

4. Put an end to ongoing human rights abuses by Indian forces and pro-India militias as repeatedly promised by the Indian Prime Minister and expected of democratic governments.

A: HR violations is a norm in India. Some Jammu Hindus were killed there. Some Hindu Gujjars were shot dead in northern India recently. Even 10-odd farmers were shot dead a few day ago by the 'Inian forces' in Uttar Pradesh.

There're NO pro-India militias there. There used to be Ikhwanis but not now. Btw, Farzana is OK with pro-Paaki militias. What a wh%$+!

5. Take steps for a long-term resolution of the conflict by beginning talks with all sections of the Kashmiri leadership and civil society.

A: We now that long-term solution doesn include complete accesion to India! Right?

6. Take steps to hold the Indian state accountable under the provisions established by the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, Constitution of India, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and International Laws and Conventions.

A: It's a natural process. However the Hurriyat never recognises Indian laws then wherew the argument?

tahmed/nb,

Okay let's put it another way.

I say the September 11 bombings were committed by ETA of Spain assisted by LTTE of Sri Lanka in connivance with US White Supremacists of Oklahoma.

What do you have to prove me wrong?

Dear Dost,
A needless introduction to an otherwise good article, perhaps in awe and predisposition of ISI.

Like all intelligence organisations, ISI has different desks and the right hand does not know what the left does. The desks for internal situation, External operations and Kashmir ought to be entirely different. One does not take over the responsibility of the other.

Its just that the issues of terrorism have eclipsed freedom movements where interests of USA are not served. Pakistan's hibernation on the issue is to make sure that Kashmir never links up with terrorism and therefore the pause. Its like the ASANA.
As simple as that.
Cheerios

#81 Posted by tahmed32,

(sigh) yes, 9/11 was conducted in the name of muslims by al qaeda.

Your heartfelt sigh is not sufficient proof. Is it Sir?

zeemax #80 (sigh) yes, 9/11 was conducted in the name of muslims by al qaeda.

nb #78 (sigh). when you wrote "All this time, we needed to stop the BJP from making bombs..who would've guessed. ", you implied that BJP was incapable of such murderous actions. and (sigh), you are indeed wrong in implying this.

#79 Posted by nb,

As you know, many here do not believe that the September 11 bombings were not committed by Muslims

err ... September 11 bombings were committed by Muslims? I haven't seen any proof. Have you?

(I mean proof other than Muhammad Atta's passport found intact on the sidewalk when everything else had turned to dust.)

#78 is to tahmed32.

Who talked about no lawless communal acts by the BJP? All that I asked him was for proof that those bombs in Surat were planted by the BJP. As you know, many here do not believe that the September 11 bombings were not committed by Muslims; when people like dostmittar talk of conspiracies against Islam, it just sets them off further.

There are some in Karnataka, Kerala and TN. I now of a Kashmiri who married an Iyer girl there.

Ekalavya, thi is a few weeks ago.

http://chowk.com/articles/kashmir-experiencing-hyderabad-raoof-mir.htm

(S ome excerpts)

Kashmiri’s recently have started moving to southern states of India as well where they are experiencing a very different response than what most of Kashmiri’s experienced in Northern states of India. One of such states where Kashmiri’s have recently started inflowing is Andhra Pradesh. In the city of Hyderabad loads of Kashmiri’s have arrived. Most of these Kashmiri’s have either came for business purposes, educational purposes or to settle here by taking several professions in different sectors.

Students from Kashmir have secured numerous seats in reputed institutions from last four years. In university of Hyderabad, which is a central government institution declared by University Grants Commission (UGC) as a “university with potential for excellence� about ten students have secured admissions only in last two years.

“It is almost 3000 kilometers that we have traveled all the way from Kashmir only to acquire some cultural capital and to get reformed� says Mushtaq Dar, a student of M.Phil from political science.


Hyderabad, now one of the most important cities of India has proved to be an employment destination for some section of the Kashmiri’s. Most are recruited in bank sector and IT sectors.

DM ji

So, Kashmiri Muslims CAN and HAVE been buying land in the rest of India?!!

P.S.: I know that you feel they should be able to. That is not the issue.

I really had no idea Kashmiri Muslims have been buying land in the rest of India. This is a NATIONAL issue.

nb: and, further to below, it seems to me it is you who is giving killers of humans a pass when you pretend that BJP has not committed lawless communal acts.

nb: where do you see DM exempting any killer?

Dost mittar, I do not think you do Indian or other Muslims any favours by exempting them from the expectations we have of other humans, such as not killing other humans. What do you expect the people of Jammu to do?
Also, what evidence do you have that the bombs were hoaxes planted by the BJP? All this time, we needed to stop the BJP from making bombs..who would've guessed.

Re: # 68; dost

thanks for the "try"; surely you are in a better position to answer than those who may have "dil mein chor" so to speak!

any right minded Indian Muslim should think twice about the possible repercussions elsewhere in India; they have only just got over the 1947 fiasco

#69 you are doing fine by yourself, dm sahib. I merely add a "kyoon nahiN! kyoon nahiN!" applause from the sidelines.

tahmed saheb:

Thanks for your support. I think that I will need some on this Board.

akcheema#59:

If I were an Indian Muslim, I would be resolutely against the only Muslim-majority state in India leaving the country; but I am not. On the other hand, Baig saheb, my good friend Farzana Versey and the majority of Muslims (exceptions are there) who take part in such forums (foraa?) and letters to the editor seem to be either indifferent on this issue or favour giving independence to kashmir. So, they should be the ones to answer your question.

eklavya#57:

What are you up to Kautalya? Aren't Kashmiris Indian according to Indian constitution? so, why should they not be able to buy land there?

BTW, the ban on purchase of land by non-kashmiris pre-dates Kashmir's accession to India and was imposed by the Maharaja. A similar ban is in place in Himachal Pradesh on the non-residents of the state.

#65 a "harmonized society" is one based on universal principles that are then enforced - with lawbreakers being treated like the cancerous cells (while permitting basic freedoms to permit "mutations" that cause individuals as well as societies to gradually evolve).

in other words, the rule of law.

it may have been a dream 3000 years ago, but much progress has been made since then - and unaccountable rulers are no longer the norm.

There could be many alternatives. I am a believer in the Confucian concept of a harmonious society, whereas the British Parliamentary system is based on confrontational politics

It's one thing to imagine an idealised harmonious society. It's another to live in a practical world.

I would be happier with a President/Governor type of set-up where the elections are only held every six years

I don't see how the above model would solve problems like this.

dost mittar #61 You hit the nail on the head with this post!!

masanmamuthu:

There could be many alternatives. I am a believer in the Confucian concept of a harmonious society, whereas the British Parliamentary system is based on confrontational politics. And the way the elections are held in India, there is an electoral campaign going on all the time, whether for legislatures or for municipal corporations; and the issues are the same whether it is to elect the Member of Parliament or a dog catcher. So, the government is always worried about the election and not about the governance.

I would be happier with a President/Governor type of set-up where the elections are only held every six years.

"BTW, I support Kashmir going to Pakistan for the same reason that Patel reportedly did, because it has a Muslim majority which will never accept to be part of a Kafir country; what is your reason?"

No, at this point in time, the best course for Muslims (no matter where they are located) would be to frame Kashmir situation in terms of 'independence.' This is not the best moment for asking merger with Pakistan. Having an 'indendepent' Kashmir would also give maximum power and flexibility to Muslims wrt Hindu.

If stars are aligned, that merger can always follow - de jure or de facto.

parthaab:

Sorry, I haven't read your links, but I fully believe that the Surat "bombs" were a hoax, most likely by Modi supporters to reestablish his bruised reputation for having successfully fought terrorism in the state.

I also agree that the BJP is a communal party. But I also think that its success is a reaction to the pseudo-secuarist parties who have ignored the real needs of Indian Muslims - giving them protection and safety and a fair access to job opportunities - and compensating it with pandering to their demands based on Muslim identity.

HP#29:

Wow!

You must have misread what I wrote. In that first paragraph, I specifically excluded the ISI from any blame (or credit depending upon your pov!) for what is happening. In any case, that para is just a preamble and not the substantive part of this article.

Re: # 56; dost_mittar

Don't you think that would be setting the wrong precedent? Where do you think it will stop?

zeemax#28:

Yes, it was a mistake and should have been Muzaffarabad. Thanks for being vigilant.

Beej bhaiyya, this is serious. I hope somebody was just joking about Kashmiri Muslims being able to 'buy' land in rest of India.

If not, we need to know where/which land have Kashmiri Muslims 'bought' in India.

muradbaig#19:

I would rather that Kashmir goes to Pakistan than have an independent country there and risk having a nest of international intrigues in the neighbourhood.

BTW, I support Kashmir going to Pakistan for the same reason that Patel reportedly did, because it has a Muslim majority which will never accept to be part of a Kafir country; what is your reason?

Kashmiris already have as much self-rule that the Indian Constitution allows(and they have it even more than other Indian states). They vote in their own political leaders to power. That is more than the Pakistani rulers allow their own people.

The Kashmiri population of the valley does not believe in democracy. If it did, it would not be resisting when it is given a chance to vote – for which many people have died all over the world fighting. People who vote in elections do no favor to anybody but themselves – yet the Kashmiris have convinced themselves otherwise.

The Kashmiri population of the valley does not believe in secularism. If it did, it would not have driven off the small number of Hindus from its midst.

The Kashmiris do not believe in regionalism either – that is just a pretense. That is just a petense because the Kashmiris of the Pakistani-occupied portions of Kashmir do not have a problem with other Pakistanis settling in there but the valley Kashmiris have a problem with other Indians coming in. The Kashmiri regionalism is merely communalism in disguise.

The Kashmiris of Indian Kashmir have been ill-served by their politicians. However, the Kashmiris of Indian Kashmir like it this way and will keep forever returning those types of dishonest leaders – so anybody portraying the Kashmiris as innocent victims is intellectually dishonest.

What we are seeing in Jammu is the inevitable Hindu reaction to the communalism of the Kashmiri Mussalmans. Unless it is recognized for what it is and addressed at its root (which lies in Kashmir) – it will spread to other parts of the country.

The Kashmiri Mussalmans are stuck with the current situation for at least the next 50-100 years at least. This is so because no Indian government will have the mandate to cut these individuals off from India because India is a democracy and Hindus have more votes than Muslims and Kashmiri Mussalmans have lost all sympathy among the Hindu (and perhaps the Muslim) masses of the rest of India.

Kashmir should be administratively separated from Jammu and Ladakh so its problems are not automatically transferred to those states and, through them, to other Indian states.

In the valley, no further concessions should be given to Kashmiris – they already have too many.

Pakistan, through ISI, will always have an “opportunity� to fan the communalism of the Kashmiri Mussalmans even more. They can choose to do it – but it will cost them in other ways – including lost economic opportunities and increased domestic Islamic fundamentalism. If Pakistanis want it that way, they are welcome to it – although frankly, the Kashmiris are not worth it.

Re: # 52

Eklavya, Mr. Rupani had to leave for the bathroom on urgent business.

GT:

I am glad you liked the summary. The first para is merely a preamble and you can ignore it. But if you want to raise issue about any statement there, please do and I will try to respond.

One outcome good for all of us has been that parthaab is finally playing his role.

Where is Pranay Rupani?!

-------

kashmiris are allowed to buy land in India? What on Indian earth for?!

Does someone here know the details? You mean, Kashmiri Muslims can buy land in India?

Hope that is a bad joke. If not, how much land have Kashmiri Muslims "bought" in India, and where?

this is where hindu inferiority complex posing as hindu nationalism leaves india - after 60 years, this country cant even pass the low bar required to ween Kashmiris away from their desire to be with Pakistan (despite all the problems caused by mullahs and rogue generals in pakistan)!!

Temporary structures on occupied land tend to turn into permanent ones pretty soon. I'm sure Kashmiris are aware of the Palestinian settlements examples.

I am sure of that too. Otherwise why would Kashmiris come all the way from Kashmir and buy land at many times the existing value in Kerala(Munnar) and set up temporary structures?

Only Keralites were not so sure though....as are most of other Indians!

Temporary structures on occupied land tend to turn into permanent ones pretty soon. I'm sure Kashmiris are aware of the Palestinian settlements examples.

I am sure of that too. Otherwise why would Kashmiris come all the way from Kashmir and buy land at many times the existing value in Kerala(Munnar) and set up temporary structures?

Only Keralites were not so sure though....as are most of other Indians!

Here is another proof, if a proof was needed, that the British Parliamentary system, with its electoral politics catering to the basest emotions, is ill suited for the Indian masses.


So what do you think is the solution, if British parliamentary system is not suited for Indian masses.

1. One idea is to go back to live the 'dhimmi' life.
2. or to the communal electorates.

I would like to know the alternatives you have in mind.

How about a totally secular party like the "Indian Union Muslim League" as opposition for a change????
Forget the opposition, the most secular of them all, the Congress are ruling, have been ruling all along.


By the looks of it, Congress will manage to gain more support for the RSS,VHP than BJP if it continues as it is now.

#26 Posted by Ras on August 15, 2008 11:01:40 pm

Ras,

Kashmir is indeed having self-rule (if that doesnt mean independence). Kashmir is ruled by themselves.

Unlike other states, Kashmir had its own flag, Constitution and it's not like other states of India i.e. electins take place every 6 years i/o 5 years (other states).

The Union govt had limited powers visavias Kashmir. India didnt allow outsiders to settle there as Pakistan did in its part of Kashmir (or as China did in Tibet and Xinjiang). This preservation has become our undoing now.

If settlement means ceding Valley to Pakistan then I am sorry it's not going happen. In the meanwhile u guys can send ghazis and we're ready for shooting practice.

watch inbred retards protest outside the indian embassy in nyc..

yeah...this is the key..a dozen inbred retards protesting...now india is doomed fer sure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovWrrxVqLCk

pathaab,

i dont know bjp, but if i were u i will join them just as i join shantic folks on friday in their khutba prayers whenever time permits, instead of this ga..ndugiri. try to bring people together by ur actions and expression.

It is a shame on the country, to have a COMMUNAL party, the BJP as its principal opposition. The Congress is ineffiecient and is ideology less. Their only aim is to go home every night, to a bigger mansion, with more of the corrupt money.

The inability of the BJP to nail the Congress on economic mismanagement, and its continued dependance on dividing Hindus and Muslims, ( even by planting bombs? ), is a SHAME on the country!

Now, go ahead and call me communist, if that satisfies you!

Similar des-information was spread on the eve of Clinton's visit.

"

The Chittisinghpura massacre refers to the shooting to death of 35 adherents of the religion of Sikhism (called Sikhs) by the Islamic Fundamentalist militant group Lashkar-e-Toiba on March, 2000 , in the Kathua District of the State of Jammu and Kashmir in India.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 The killings
* 2 Aftermath
* 3 Clinton Controversy
* 4 Mishra Controversy
* 5 Chittisinghpura massacre in film
* 6 References
* 7 See also

[edit] The killings

The killers were disguised in Indian Army fatigues to avoid detection. The massacre took place when the militants opened fire on the villagers, resulting in a large number of deaths. The sole survivor of the massacre was one Nanak Singh Aulakh , who recounted the events to reporters.[1]

The residents were killed by Lashkar-e-Toiba as part of their Islamist campaign in the region. An Lashkar-e-Toiba militant named Sohail Malik of Sialkot, who was arrested in December of the same year, admitted to the involvement of the group and had no regret in perpetrating the anti-Sikh massacre. Malik said he had opened fire because he had been ordered to do so by his commanders. He also said that he knew nothing about the plot to kill the Sikhs until he stood in an orchard where the 35 people were killed.Pakistan Rangers had taught Malik marksmanship and mountain climbing. He infiltrated into India in October 1999, with the equivalent of USD 200 in expense money, in order to participate in the massacre. [2].

[edit] Aftermath

The killings of 36 Sikhs was a turning point in the Kashmir issue, where Sikhs had usually been spared from militant violence.

The villagers ensured that the local school was up and running just two weeks after the killings. The massacre created tension and distrust between the Sikh and Muslim residents of the area, but no problems developed at the joint Muslim-Sikh village school.[1]

In 2005, Sikh organizations such as the Bhai Kanahiya Jee Nishkam Seva Society demanded a deeper state inquiry into the details of the massacre[3] and for the inquiry to be made public. The state government ordered an inquiry into the massacre. A day after the inquiry was ordered, NDTV special correspondent Barkha Dutt went to the village.[1]

[edit] Clinton Controversy

The massacre coincided with the visit of United States president Bill Clinton to India. In an introduction to a book written by Madeleine Albright titled The Mighty and the Almighty: Reflections on America, God, and World Affairs (2006), he accused "Hindu Militants" of perpetrating the act. This error created a major incident, with both Hindu and Sikh groups expressing outrage at the inaccuracy. Clinton's office did not return calls seeking comment or clarification. In the hours immediately after the massacre in March 2000, the US condemned the killings but refused to accept the Indian government's contention that it was the work of Pakistani Islamist groups. That changed as soon as Clinton's error was exposed. The publishers, Harper Collins routed a correction through Albright's office. In a public statement they acknowledged the mistake.[4]

Page xi of the Mighty and the Almighty contains a reference to Hindu militants that will be deleted in subsequent printings, both in America and in international editions. This error was due to a failure in the fact-checking process.[4]

[edit] Mishra Controversy

The apparent error was aggravated by Clinton's refusal to acknowledge it, and exacerbated by Pankaj Mishra's book Temptations of the West: How to be Modern in India, Pakistan, Tibet and Beyond where he repeated the allegations against Hindus even after the confession of the Lashkar-e-Toiba militants.[5].

[edit] Chittisinghpura massacre in film

The massacre was depicted in the commercial Bollywood film Adharm (unholy) directed by Adeep Singh.

"

Hi.da Paki might be hi.da Parthaab. They cause destruction and massacre of innocents and poor. Granted few in police are honest all the time but most are not dishonest all the time. System still works and catches number of`terrorists without getting mentioned in media. India needs to Putin and should declare emergency/martial law for a decade to save it from evil designs of Abrahmic folks that include Marxists.

#33,34 Posted by pinku

"1. No ISI didn't ask for initial land approval, they are still intellliegnce service for Islam so they won't ask land for hindu yatra."

Oh I see so the ISI is not involved in this case. Good,at least one problem in India not caused by the ISI!

“2. Not they didn't ask for cancelallation, because Indian administration will never follow their advice even if they were right.�

I was told that the ISI controls everything in India now you are telling me differently. I will check Indian Newspapers to see what they have written.

“So those subsidiaries of ISI in India asked and threatened Indian govt to cancell it. Do you get that??�

So it is ISI behind that. Why are you making contradictory statements? In one line you wrote that India is not controlled by the ISI and in the next you write that it is the ISI subsidiaries that control India. Okay, they have indirect control of India.

Look, please don’t be upset I am just trying to figure out the whole thing.

“Not just Indians but even Americans are afraid of ISI, after all it is working for God.�

Wow! This ISI is really something! I see why Indians are so afraid of ISI, I would be too!

"The discovery was also often quite by chance. Sanjay Kaporia (35), a lace-cloth supplier from Varachha, for instance, saw something odd in the dustbin outside his shop. Unmindful of the risk, he walked with the live bomb for 22 metres to Labeshwar police chowki. "I thought it is best to bring it here," he said. Bhimji Budhna, BJP councillor from Varachha, also detected one. "I was passing by Mini Market when I saw a green plastic bag stuck between signboards of two shops. It looked like a bomb, like the ones I've seen on TV. So I called the police."
"
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3300863.cms

It is unreasonable to expect the police force to 'suddenly' rise up to global standards to investigate REAL terrorist activities.

For YEARS now, the police force has been busy using draconian, POTA-like, laws made by the WCD ministry to scuttle domestic family disputes. They are being used ( along with the lawyers ), by feminists to settle scores, take revenge, socially ostracise and simply, make more money from young Indian sons-in-law.

The priorities of the government are obvious - while the investigation and research wings of the police, recieved a pittance, Rs. 33000 crores was doled, in the previous budget, to the feminist ministry to carry on with their propaganda! Meanwhile the police continues its primitive third degree methods - 'truth serum', planting evidence and 'encounter' killings, to 'investigate' even petty crime!

Draconian, anti-male laws mean that it is easier to murder, or to plant bombs in the city, than to verbally challenge your spouse! It is the utter irresponsibility on the part of the government to make gender biased laws to intimidate its own future males citizens, while doing nothing to truly empower the police. The effects of the incompetence and lopsided priorities, are becoming obvious now.

Re: # 23

Arjun,

I checked again, and found aall links working.

http://tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne230808Incoldblood. asp

http://tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne230808descriptionof_astruggle .asp

http://sify.com/news/cities/chandigarh/fullstory.php?id=14729496

http://w ww.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=595728

TEHELKA is known for its raw reporting, and its fearlessness. Remember that MJ Akbar, a relatively neutral journalist, was tamed by the Congress by removing him from the Deccan group?


I find it amusing that there are people who still think that all questions about the communal parties objectives and methods, are solely the prerogative of the muslims and communists!

Among the 'master sleuths' who found the bombs, was one Bhimji Budhna, who tipped off the cops about ELEVEN of the 22 recovered bombs! A BJP corporator, he "doesn't remember who informed him about the bombs." But he was pretty good at finding them. He found one hanging from a tree, another hidden behind a billboard, and a third behind a tree guard (whatever that is).

About two dozen bombs were discovered in the city, some at unlikely places--tucked behind hoarding bills and up on trees. But no one appears to know who first spotted a bomb.... The police seem to have been tipped off about MOST of the bombs by one group of BJP activists. But in most cases they weren't the ones who spotted the bombs. They were TOLD about it by others. Now, in being asked, they
seem to have forgotten who were the people who told them about the bombs."

Just imagine ONE single person being able to find 11 bombs in the space of the time for a morning walk! Any police team would normally put him under the scanner. But not the BJP police.

Another guy, Sanjay Kapooria, who isn't a party member but Budhna described as "one of us," actually brought a bomb to the police station, where he claimed he'd fished it out of a trash can near his jewelry shop. Obviously a very courageous fellow, he says that after 18 unexploded bombs were recovered, he was sure that this one wouldn't go off either.

An American was arrested for sending prank emails from the 'Indian Mujahideen' from his computer. He claims that his computer was hacked. And no doubt the PM will be under tremendous American pressure to let him go uninvestigated too. We can expect more such American pressure in the n-deal regime too.

The Indian police are too pre occupied with raking in money from husbands incarcerated by draconian laws in domestic disputes.

Will the Home Minister resign? Please?

ISI is anglo baby delivered by draculla mom.

add to #34 Posted by pinku,

Not just Indians but even Americans are afraid of ISI, after all it is working for God. Everybody else is working for Satan and ISI works for God, for God's sake every good deed around the world, be it drug trafficking, helping saints like Dawood or purging sins of Afganistan or terrorist internships, everywhere it is doing God's job, so others will certainly be afraid of such an almighty organization?????

Re #29 Posted by HP on August 15, 2008

[[
Did the ISI ask one Kashmir CM to approve the land grant?
Did the ISI ask the another CM to cancel that?
Did the ISI ask the hindus to block the highway? Did the ISI ask the Indian PM to sit on the issue until the things get out of hand and he can exploit that for elections?

]]

1. No ISI didn't ask for initial land approval, they are still intellliegnce service for Islam so they won't ask land for hindu yatra.

2. Not they didn't ask for cancelallation, because Indian administration will never follow their advice even if they were right. But these ISI guys own highly intelllectual and philanthropic institutions/people world-wide, other people calll such institutions as separatists/jehadi and terrorists. So those subsidiaries of ISI in India asked and threatened Indian govt to cancell it. Do you get that?? And because India is not China it doesn't normally say "to hell with your threat, we will threaten you twice and with double measure if you ever threatened us"
So ISI doesn't control India, but it controls many so called intellectual organizations world-wide and those people use AK-47 to celebrate birthdays, not crackers.

ISI is still innocent because it is doing it for God ultimately. It has people who are more Godly than God and it doesn't work for its government either, only for God.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#21 Posted by parthaab on August 15, 2008 9:40:31 pm
Who are the REAL terrorists?

I looked at those links and I think people are asking the right questions. You can’t blame everything on ISI and wash your hands off the issue! Why Indian court system lifts bans from the SIMI, if they are so involved in terrorism?

It is always a good idea to look at every issues from different angles and it is investigative agencies job to check out every lead and every accusation. I am sure no one from any investigative agencies has contacted this guy. If RSS /BJP think he is lying, they should take him to task.

RSS is a fascist organization and there is no reason to not investigate the possibility of the some of its members in Bomb blasts.

Apparently, the Samjhoota Express blasts on Lahore-Delhi line were a handiwork of the Hindu fascist organizations but that too is dumped on some Hyderabadi Muslims. What a shame!

Dost Mittar,

As usual not read your article but must be usual JNU equal-equal. Bakis and Kashmiri ingrates and political ga..dus like Parthab deserve not dost-mittar treatment but only "Dostum in Rectum."

Ethan-Allen and Angloes might have organized a feast for hi.da Parthaab type folks for which they might be spreading all kinds of lies. These guys are supported by evanjihadis and angloes. They will suck the blood of poor. When you join and work as foot soldiers of their organizations you would immediately understand that these folks are the most materialistic folks than so called capitalistic bania grocer against whom they do lot of Narebaji. These folks eat without shame govt scholarship for doing research on Biogas but never apply their knowledge for the real up-liftment of the poor village folks la Swadesh. They only spread their stinking gas of fatalism and emasculating criticism of India all over media.

Murad, when are you going to organize Auto Technical fair in the nearby Masjid on earliest Jumme ke din. Tum sa..la bahut english fekta hain. Hum tumse better Shantic Hain.

re #19 Posted by muradbaig
[[The valley Kashmiris want to be independant of both countries and as it is a self sufficient valley there is no real reason why they should not be. ]]

What is this self sufficiency? Even a single family with some money can declare itself self sufficient? A part of already self-sufficnet state can still be self sufficient.

Enough of Islamic states are already there, there should be no question of creating another Islamic state. Sooner or later India should declare that if Kashmiri want independence then they can leave Kashmir, and it should show similar determination as China shows on its hold on Tibet.

If a few million Kashmiris are extra smart compared to rest of the 1 billion Indians and if they deserve a better Islamic state then they should move out of Kashmir. Those Huriyat and other such organizations will give them the same Islamic state eventually, doesn't matter where they create their own state and how they start. If it was possible for them to manage themselves they could have lived happily as a state with-in India. BUT THEY DON"T WANT IT?? They are extra smart?? Those billion people in rest of India need not suffer for the sake of fake freedom and Islamic mental confinement of these few millions for forever. So request them to move out and let India keep this land for 1 billion people. They can get land in Islamic nations, you have tons of them. This was not their original Islamic place and they have already thrown kashmiri hindus out of it, so they be told that now it should be their turn, they owe it to others.

#8 Posted by dost_mittar
"HP#5:Are you suggesting that there is no Kashmir desk in the ISI? "

What kind of silly question is this? Did you mention Kashmir desk of ISI in your article? You wrote a full para about the ISI. My question was about the need for that in the article.

Did the ISI ask one Kashmir CM to approve the land grant?
Did the ISI ask the another CM to cancel that?
Did the ISI ask the hindus to block the highway? Did the ISI ask the Indian PM to sit on the issue until the things get out of hand and he can exploit that for elections?

Okay let me answer this right here:
Yes the ISI did all that and more. The ISI even asked the BJP to run with the issue and ISI asked the Indian army to fire on Kashmiris and the ISI asked the police to fire in Jammu too.

I will post more once I get more info on what else the ISI did to help promote this issue but I know ISI controls India!

You guys see ISI in your dreams too!

dost_mittar,

The fact that the land transfer was being leased to SASB to build only temporary facilities which would be dismantled each year at the end of the pilgrimage was never properly communicated and was ignored by protesters.

Temporary structures on occupied land tend to turn into permanent ones pretty soon. I'm sure Kashmiris are aware of the Palestinian settlements examples.

On the other hand Indians argue Kashmir is not occupied territory. Nothing could be more ludicrous.

(P.S. Is Muzaffarnagar a mistake or is it what they call Muzaffarabad over there?)

#6 Posted by dost_mittar

The only credit to be given is their not being as dumb as musharraf. Everyone saw what the consequences of heavy-handedness in Pakistan were.

Kashmiris need self-rule, that is certain.

The question is, should they also have a country to

go along with that self rule?

It is time to utilize maximum creativity.

We all need to put 1947 behind us for a new south Asia.

India is very much in the driver's seat "at the moment".

Kashmir is the last wound of Partition. It has to be

healed. Our people need to move on...

re #24 Posted by pinku on

There are many such people who ask such innocent question like who are terrorists, there are people who innocently suggest that a terrorist may be anybody even if a terrorist himself/herself says he did it. So such pretentious innocent people rasing such doubts should be dealt with properly. They should be given enough reason that they can not fool atleast their own mind (and if they can, at least they feel some shame internally).

re #22 Posted by parthaab

You said:
[[
#22 Posted by parthaab on August 15, 2008 9:48:23 pm
Re: # 14

It is not surprising that you assume I am communist, simply because I have questioned the veracity of the identity of the terrorists.

Brings us to an important point : Do only communists ask the right questions?
]]

So the question is asked by Digvijay Singh, a congress person and you reached a good point that only communist ask valid question???? How valid is that???

Asking valid question is not sufficient you should reach valid conclusions as well. You can not give any assumption as an answer to a so callled valid question, same for communists and Digvijay Singh. Digvijay singh is neither an authority nor a reputed person to (check wikipedia summary below), and even if he was you still can not make a conclusion. It is still a question by someone who has a state which has significant muslims population. He may be a person who can say anything to get back his seat.

So even if you have say 100 such people asking this same question, you only have a question there, if you have thousands other, mainly the intelligence agencies (who will provide you some evidence as well) who are 100 times less biased than him and who are working for his own political party congress then it will be your folly if you still give his statement more weight than all other institutions/people/admiinstration.

And if you do this deliberately when you can reason this much, then actualy you should be forced to answer more questions than you have heard so far.



===========

on digvijay singh, from wikipedia

In year 2001 Income tax authorities seized a diary from a liquor baron. They found the names of several officials and politicians of the state and money written against their names in the diary. There was one entry with just CM against the amount .It was not known and not found out of what state the CM the diary entry referred to. Digvijay Singh was chief minister then. [1]

In 2001 he appointed A. N. Singh as the Director-General of the State Police . A. N. Singh's name had figured prominently in the tell-tale diaries seized in a raid by the income tax authorities some months ago. When those diaries first made headlines, Singh was the additional DGP (Intelligence).[2]

A Jhabua court issued a warrant against Digvijay Singh and 14 others for alleged remarks on the 1998 Jhabua nuns rape case accusing Hindu organisations of being involved in the inicdent, following a civil defamation suit filed by a local lawyer. A Bhopal court later cancelled the warrant after he appeared in person and furnished a surety bond for Rs. 5,000. [3]

#21 Posted by parthaab on August 15, 2008 9:40:31 pm

comrade: I tried your links...Most of then are 404...the sify link is about the american who was associated with the terror e-mails...but who was let go because the cops gave him a clean chit...so your link proves diddly squat...

we're not all pakis here, you know..

Re: # 14

It is not surprising that you assume I am communist, simply because I have questioned the veracity of the identity of the terrorists.

Brings us to an important point : Do only communists ask the right questions?

Who are the REAL terrorists?

http://tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne230808Incoldblood. asp

http://tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne230808descriptionof_astruggle .asp

http://sify.com/news/cities/chandigarh/fullstory.php?id=14729496

http://w ww.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=595728

#19 Posted by muradbaig on August 15, 2008 9:29:55 pm


The tragedy is that the congress have quite unnecessarily handed


murad baig has nothing to say about the islamofascist reaction to a few hectares of land being given to a shrine board...

why am I not surprised?


there is no real reason why they should not be.


I'll give you a reason...the will of the indian people..as expressed by the resolution passed by their elected parliament..

Very comprehensive and fair. Truly a tragedy of errors, stupidities, fanatacisms and political opportunisms. The tragedy is that the congress have quite unnecessarily handed the cause-less BJP a cause that they will exploit throughout India.

When I last visited Kashmir I did not find that any Kashmiri was interested in going to Pakistan though most were anti India. The valley Kashmiris want to be independant of both countries and as it is a self sufficient valley there is no real reason why they should not be.

D-M,

Nice summary. The first and last paragraphs are opinions which could have been written and elaborated in a different article. I of course, disagree with your last para based on what I know. I would like to know how you would go about defending your first paragraph. Forget Urstruly .... he is shaping up to be the next Romair. This is chowk's loss really, I mean Urstruly.

meanwhile, while urstruly is already here...not as bad as the t-shirt post but comes pretty close..

#89 Posted by Urstruly on July 14, 2001 7:26:51 pm

I also request all Indian warriors to start smelling the reality now. The word ``Taliban`` is out now-nobody cares about them no more; the word ``terrorism`` in conjunction with Pakistan is out too-US congress is in the process of repealing Presseler Ammendment. Kashmir and Indian atttrocities to its people have never been exposed so much before this summit.

A-o-A....72 times (460+22)...do the math..



Pakistan Says 460 Militants, 22 Troops Killed in Bajaur
By Ayaz Gul
Islamabad
15 August 2008



Pakistani officials say security forces have killed at least 460 al-Qaida-linked militants in a tribal region bordering Afghanistan. VOA's Ayaz Gul reports, the week-long clashes also have left 22 troops dead and forced more than 200,000 people to flee to safer areas.

I wonder if capt clueless will post on this thread...I wonder if I'll need to post his hilarious predictions on the kashmir issue being resolved in pakiland's favor...

I'll do this..paki ruppe is at 77 already...if it goes to 80 to the $$, I'll post it...to give pakis some comic relief

Partha,

Cant diasgree on the links u gave. It's indeed those ppl who gave ammunition to the separatists. Secondly the nonchalant attitude of the Union govt, aggressive Hindutva of RSS coupled with faslehoods propagated by the Valley leadership contributed to this mess in Kashmir now. The Pakistan factor just happened for no fault of its own. It's the Hurriyat pl who flaunted it. There's no Riaz Khokar in Dehli now. ;)

It's clear now that Union govt dont have any policy or pulse on the hapenings in Kashmir.

Left liberalism is admirable in open societies but plz do remember that ppl like u wud be hauled on coals in Islamic countries. Communist Paty of India who voted for creation of Pakistan cudnt open shop there. Therefore pl dont feed milk to snakes.

#12 Posted by dost_mittar on August 15, 2008 7:07:51 pm


..and about 40 lakhs who agree with me


They are free to move to pakiland...

arjun:

"There are about 40 kashmiris who'd disagree with you...if they were alive, that is.."

..and about 40 lakhs who agree with me, or you going to send them to the same place where the '40' went?

Who are the REAL terrorists?

http://tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne230808Incoldblood.asp

http://tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne230808descriptionof_astruggle.asp

http://sify.com/news/cities/chandigarh/fullstory.php?id=14729496

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=595728

#1 Posted by Urstruly on August 15, 2008 3:34:42 pm

What happened to your master plan...you know...the one where you wanted the government of pakiland to start an immigration scheme for indian muslims..especially entrepreneurs..

how's that going? you think azim premji will come to pakiland?

why don't you extend that plan to the "kashmiris" you love so much?

#7 Posted by dost_mittar on August 15, 2008 6:16:57 pm


Your security forces can't handle the fallout from a temporary transfer of a meagre 100 acres of land


There are about 40 kashmiris who'd disagree with you...if they were alive, that is..

Kuldip Nayyar types have been saying india had no choice but to give up kashmir for a long long time...and yet, nothing has changed on the ground...

HP#5:

Are you suggesting that there is no Kashmir desk in the ISI?

arjun#4:

Your security forces can't handle the fallout from a temporary transfer of a meagre 100 acres of land, and you think they will be able to cope with the repeal of article 370?

Urstruly:

You should give Indians some credit; at least they are not using helicopter gunships or white powder.

This is an interesting article on the situation.
India-Pakistan relations in free fall
By M K Bhadrakumar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JH15Df01.html

DM Wrote a factual article but I don't get this shtick about the ISI in the first paragraph. The article would have been better without that.

This is not the first time the ISI had nothing to do with the issue in Kashmir. Both Congress and BJP played a little game in Kashmir which is getting out of hands now.

I think the Indian Security establishment must be big time PO-ed at the Mohni Mohni Singh sarkar... They will shave his beard off...Elections in November!

How could any one blame Pakistan for the problems in Kashmir? They are all created by Indians themselves... and they cry like babies when the sht in diaper begins to dry and chip inside!

kuldip nayyar thinkgs it's politics uber alles...

and the "kashmiris" rioting over land given to a trust isn't islam uber alles..

the only solution to this is to repeal article 370 and do to kashmir what the hans have done to tibet and are doing to xinjiang...

#1 Posted by Urstruly on August 15, 2008 3:34:42 pm


Let these people go.


They are free to go...to pakiland..for good..
I'll pay the bus fare for the first 100 "kashmiris" who want to go to pakiland...

I agree. Muslims of Kashmir will never accept to be part of India.

After seeing Shekh Abdul Aziz shaheed taking 3000+ unarmed Kashmiris to LOC boldly announcing that they want to celebrate 61st anniversary of Pakistan in Azad Kashmir's capital Muzaffarabad and how cowardly Indian Army shot at those unarmed Kashmirsi, killing 100s, indiscriminately, does even a modicum of doubt remains in your and anyones mind that Kashmiris want to stay with India?

Abdul Aziz Shaheed's body was drapped in Pakistani flag, in the heart of Sri Nagar, amid a funeral crowd of over several hundered thousand; despite a shoot-to-kill curfew order. There is no more bold statement than that that they will never submit to the tyrranny of Hindu and accept the vassalage of hindu occupation.

In the name of good conscience I appeal to every Hindu:

Let these people go.
Free them.
Free Kashmir.
Live and let live.