Musharraf and Me

Re: # 48 nkg, both imperatives are unlikely to happen. Idealism does not work. So sad.

Re: # 45 majumdar; to be 110% honest, I do not read a lot on chowk, so I don't know if there is a propaganda existing on chowk. I recall the material I know in my youth years and the common sense which can glean the truth even without much material. I have lost all those reference books, so I can only recall that historically it can be proved that it were these feudal who wanted Pakistan, because Congress had land reforms in his program. Events after events prove how these people supported it and how ordinary people were duped by their emotions. I really do not want to discuss all this. It is very painful what happened in 1947 (and even more painful that so few people realize its long erm consequences in whole of this region) and no one ever ever can convince me otherwise. I hear even today the screams of people fleeing their homelands and .... (no words can describe all that through which people to have go through - for what??????????????) - no I don't want to talk about it.

Re: # 42
quin...
Feudalism to democracy is not easy transition....It can be achieved in peaceful manner in two ways....
1) Upper class have to create new source of wealth without exploitation
2) Lower class have to unite and create a political power base for them.

In West Bengal, CPI(M) started as communist party, but strengthened democracy to large extent...

Re: # 45
majumder....

ha ha ha....nice attempt to make a dog believe that, it is human.....

Ouch! That must have hurt Majumdar bhai? Not for the first time, even Pakistanis questioning the partition?

Quin sahib,

We divided India so that feudal of Punjab, Sindh, Blochistan and NWFP can flourish.

Looks like you have fallen prey to the nefarious propaganda of Hindoo hatemongers on chowk. Pakistan was created in the name of minority rights and provincial autonomy.

Regards

Re: # 7
Arjun...

Good news and Bad News for you...
Good one...
Bomb kills more than 25 people in Pakistan....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7569786.stm

Bad one...
10 French soldiers lost life while fighting with Islamists...
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSSP16416020080819?feedTy pe=RSS&feedName=topNews


For Pakis it be reverse....

Re: # 32
Tahmed...
If Nawaz had committed any mistake and violated constitution, he whould have recevied proper response in the next election. Who is army chief to take action against an elected PM? Does he have any authority to take such action? What accountability he has towards common people? Do people of Pakistan have the authority to sack an Army chief, whenever you think it suits?

Tenure of a Govt. is at most 5 years. As part of human history, it is very small time and can not cause permanent damage to a nation.
If you have formulated a process stick to it or try to refine it gradualy. If you abundon it for misdeed of an executioner, then you will never able to create stabel process.....
Let Nawaz Sharif, Bhutto commit crime, people will create new leadership, if they deserve a better one....

I normally do not find enough inspiration to participate in any political discussion. It is all so hopeless. But at this point, I feel urge to share one of my strongest convictions. (so strong that I am posting it on every interact on this topic - directly related or not)
Gosh, how to say it. I will support only that government / party that is sincerely and totally committed to abolish feudalism in Pakistan. That is our key problem. People get excited about this or that leader. People talk about merits and demerits of despicable military rule or corrupt political parties rule. People get ensnare in a bit of hero worship. People get worked up with their emotions and erupt like lavas. But what we forget is the fact that no party, no military rule has ever made the fundamental change in our society; the only fundamental change which will take our country forward is the structural change to break the social and economic grip of bastard feudal lords. It may sound old fashioned classical socialist line, but the fundamentals never change. There is a feudal-military, feudal-political alliances which will never allow this to happen. That is why right from the start, when Jinnah and Liaquat have been murdered, no government have ever taken a single serious step towards liberating the poor masses from their horrible shackles. Even Bhutto, the socialist, even the Musharaf the enlightened one, failed miserably in this respect. The former betrayed the latter ignored. In the final analysis, they (and all others for that matter) were in alliance with those feudal bastards, (knowingly or unknowingly - the games are played in those circles in different ways.) So to hell with all the political parties; to hell with military rule- where country’s daughters and sisters and mothers, if they speak their mind, are raped in the streets and buried alive in the fields. What more despicable portrayal of a country can be than shown in one of Tazeen's iLog. And then people still do not see how it is these feudal bastards who are enemies and - emotions aside - are fundamental problem of Pakistan. With their firm grip on the politics and social fabric they stilt any real growth in culture, economics and arts. It is from that milieu of feudalism from which also all the religious fanaticism flourishes too.
We divided India so that feudal of Punjab, Sindh, Blochistan and NWFP can flourish. We committed horrible crimes in then East Pakistan so that Majeeb could not come to power and break the power of feudalism. We build nukes so feudal can be safe. Hell all. This is real blindness. We don't see the real enemies and are swayed by one or other hero worship. Messiahs will keep coming and leading us nowhere until people are blind and do not see their enemies and their own power. How they will see it. I don't know. If history is any evidence, then it will be through hell of bloodbath.

see the delusional, liar, racist and bigot.

Have a good day and keep it real,

TNI masadi

#36 Majumdar sahib, what NS did was done in a structure in which the judiciary had always promoted the status quo, it was a subordinate branch whose subordination was moreso to the military and the establishment than the people's government. It was a "mistake" but certainly not greater than the "mistake" by the judiciary of legitimizing every military rule in this country and conspiring with the military to undo democractic rule. It is high time that the people (who certainly aren't the ghoondas that tahmed talks about) storm every branch of the state and take what is rightfully theirs

Have a good day, and keep it real,

TNI Masadi

tahmed writes "no president of the US ever sent ghoondas to storm the Supreme Court as Nawaz Sharif had done back in the 1990's"

The US has indeed sent "ghoondas" to storm entire countries to change their regimes, and the executive misusing his office to manipulate the appointment of judges to dilute the independance of the judiciary is commonplace in the US as well. What tahmed sahib is doing is opening a path for the military to interfere in state affairs which by itself is a circumvention of the constituion of both the US and Pakistan that assigns a specific role to this military, which does not include capturing the state. I understand that the military upbringing of tahmed in the Pakistan Army tradition is preventing him from seeing these things. On the other hand the US military as the dominant institution together with the economic and the state operates in ways that are little different to how the Pakistan military operates except that you don't see an explicit officer in uniform commandeering the state. The state (in the US) decides based on decisions that see things in the military pov, their budgets and tax spending is skewed in that direction, and compared to all other affairs of the state, the military and military men of affairs, and their reliationship with the militarized economy is at the top of their list. The US for all intents and purposes is a military garrison state to a similar or greater degree than the military republic of Pakistan, the only difference is that it comes with more sophisticated window dressing. The Zardaris of this system have greater experience and a system that masks those that pull their strings much more effectively. The "deal making" that occurs behind the scenes never makes it to the public arena unlike the Zardari case...

Tahmed sahib,

I agree that what NS did to SC in 1998 wasn't exactly very nice. But the right thing to do would have been to start a political agitation and judicial proceedings against NS. Something like the Lawyers Movement. Agreed that given the poor state of crucial institutions- media, EC, Courts- in Pak (at least in 1999) there was no guarantee that this kind of effort would succeed. But still it was better than a coup. Inviting or supporting the army was never a great idea.

And it would have been easy to understand had Mushy intervened when NS stormed the Court (or was it JK who was COAS then?) but Mushy overthrew NS because he himself was sacked, not becuase the Constt of Pak was being violated.

Mushy overthrowing NS becuase of his concern for Constt of Pak is about as plausible as USA invading Iraq because of overthrowing a tyrant or WMD.

Regards

#28 majumdar: No one (other than a fool) thinks he knows the future. i do hope though musharraf is the last military officer in Pakistan who abused the trust of the nation by turning the nation's army against itself.

Re: # 28
Majumder...
Any political process, at least, involves common illiterate people. At least, they get the option to choose worse amongst worst....

#31 nkg: no man is an angel (or a devil either). but at any given time, a man is taking the right stand on an issue or he is not. I could argue (e.g. on the basis of what I say in #32) on behalf of the CJ on the first coup - but will not. I will however argue, as I have been, on behalf of the CJ on his historical and courageous stand in the second coup.

nkg/majumdar: agreed that for the military to have to be called in to defend the Constitution would have to be a very rare event indeed. in it's 2 centuries plus years, the US has not had to call out the military for this purpose, for example. but then - no president of the US ever sent ghoondas to storm the Supreme Court as Nawaz Sharif had done back in the 1990's. nevertheless, i am simply relating a fact when i say that every military official in the US (as in Pakistan, and I am sure in other countries too) is required to take this oath to "defend the constitution". In Pakistan's case, this was the basis given by the Supreme Court to give an indemnity to Musharraf in his first coup (against the PM).

Re: # 30
Tahmed...
Oh, what this angel(C J) was doing, when Musa usurped power in 1999?

#27 hamidm: it is no doubt impossible for you to imagine someone not grabbing any moolah offered to him, but think about this:

if the Chief Justice had wanted, he could have had more wealth by simply rubber stamping musharraf's illegal "second term" than anything zardari can give him.

so, while i know that the average IQ of a tinpot lota is 0, that of a lota-man is definitely in way up there in the low teens. So use that fine brain that God gave you...

Re: # 23
Tahmed...
Then what for police force is maintained?

Kamath....
Most of the people in this part of world (Pakis may be little worse than Indians) are stupid and emotional fools. When Indira Gandhi died, people without knowing much, voted for Congress. Logically, what ability Rajiv Gandhi showed to be fit for the topmost post, during 1984 elections? But Rajiv wave wiped entire country, even the cities (I am not talking about cow belt alone).
During 1989 election, Rajiv Gandhi was kind of universal villain. I have not seen any prime minister so maligned, not even PVN...

Tahmed sahib,

#20, #23

I am surprised to read this. Politicians are no angels and are bound once in a while to make a mess of things. Would you again welcome a coup then?

Regards

Re: # 26

mad masadi,

.... don't fret, the droopy eyed cj and his gaggle of worthless pco-1 judges will be restored ..... they might have to take a oath of allegience to zardari and his gang of thieves, but it is a small price to pay for a plush residence in the margalla foothills ..... zardari will also make sure that they are spayed or castrated before they ascend the bench, but knowing the history of the judiciary i wouldn't be surprised it they feature prominently in the next coup ...........

...... the more things change, the more they remain the same ..... my biggest regret is that i did not convert the rupee into the almighty dollar ...... sloth is the biggest sin

Delirium "Now what ? "

Now the exit of Nawaz Sharif from the lawyer's movement, and thus a major blow to it, such has been the strategy of the establishment. Let us see if it pans out....

Tahmed sahib,

The military has nothing to do with "defending the constitution", these sly gaps open up the path for military interference in the affairs of the state, in which it has no business whatsoever. "Defending the constitution" implies that it stay out of state affairs and fulfils its role of defending the borders and staying in the barracks, B & B. People brought up in the Pakistan military tradtion of meddling in state affairs, like yourself don't get that.

Have a good day,

TNI Masadi

p.s: And Pakistan is not the US neither is it supposed to be a colony of the US (though as objective fact it is), so no need to bring the objects of your worship up as "standard setters" every opportunity you get. Have some shame and self respect.....

Sincerely stated,

TNI Masadi

Not that many of his actions can be justified but atleast the man had the guts to resign. Perhaps he did sometimes mean "Sub sey pehle Pakistan".

Now what ?

Another rift within the coalition to capture the presidency ?

#22 the military is required as part of its constitutional duty to defend the constitution in Pakistan (as in the US, e.g.). so, such an action per se is not undemocratic, as you think.

LOL.."people were right then because NS had made the mistake of choosing an undemocratic path..."

hahahahaha

so they welcomed the most undemocratic of paths to remove the undemocratic path....hahahahah

Re: # 19

Naqshbandi Sahib

Last days of Musharraf were not so honorable, he had many chances to walk away with some dignity but chose not to, thus the public jubilation at his departure. Sad but true.

As for the talibanization, it prospered under Musharraf, a direct result of his erroneous policies pampering the mulla brigade to keep himself in government. This policy has been the state policy for the last thirty years but was elevated to new heights under Mushy. Will it change? As long as we have gringo breathing down our necks in the west these policies of promoting talibanization are doomed.

stuka #18 i think i already explained this in #14 when i wrote "was that mush did not respect his own word and backed off - and so steadily lost popular support."

people were right then in welcoming the coup, and people are right now in welcoming the end of musharraf.

people were right then because NS had made the mistake of choosing an undemocratic path, and gave mush the benefit of the doubt when he said he would call fresh elections. they are right now because NS has taken the democratic path in 2007, while musharraf betrayed the benefit of the doubt that was given to him then.

now, that wasnt so hard to understand, was it? :-)

i am actually feeling quite sad at his resignation. he was an honourable enough man to resign. now the looteray are going to rob the country dry again. we will rue this just as musharraf will be rueing why he took off his uniform...

Allah help Pakistan (and save it from the talibanisers!)

TAhmed: Musharraf took power in a coup - he should never have been entitled to any sort of welcome. If Nawaz Sharif was a bad ruler, he should have been voted out, not kicked out by the 111 Brigade. This was not the first coup in Pak - what made the Paksitani people think that this time was different? It was their dependence on a individual savior rather than faith in process.

Besides myself, the three people who were consistently against Musharraf were SameerJB, Zeemax and Sobia. Rest all Pakistanis were doing Bhangra when Musharraf came in.

So are pakis dancing in the street now or what?...

one of the earliest childhood memories I have is when we were visiting Pakistan in 1977 ... i must have been 6/7 perhaps ... ZAB's government was toppled by "amir-ul-momineen" and there was just pure jubilation on the streets.... people literally dishing out "halva" (a term used to spite the maulvis by the PPP wallas), dancing about and all sorts ....... almost feels like de ja vu! .... perhaps in a different direction ..... one only hopes the "right" one! though if I were a betting man ..

#13 this is the standard indian line. What happened, my friend, was that mush did not respect his own word and backed off - and so steadily lost popular support.

Why is this so hard to understand for Indians on chowk to understand? Is it because "who" (ethnically, religion-wise) a person is is more important than his actions to you gentlemen? this is a serious question.

Re: # 6 Tahmed Buddy:

You have either amnesia or selective memory and warm appreciation of thinking of mob ( people in the streets. These are the very people who danced in the streets welcoming General Mush as the liberator.

Now what happened?

kamath

#11 hamidm: you lost 25% of your ass!!

Re: # 8

zeemax,

..... i have already been made a murgha by the two fools who are in charge of this sinking ship - i have lost 25% of my rupee assets (yes, shame on me for not converting to a fe25)......... in another six months the daily paper will cost 500 rupees as the fools battle over cement permits for their nephew and duty free cars for their mistresses ...... let's just hope altaph bhai does not start a war with the 'taliban' of landi and lyari ......

brigadier muzaffar zindabad !

Moral of the story is this: When you see Pakistan in dire
situation(s) and you are in a position of power, your
friends goad you and ask you "what are you
doing to save the country?" "You should do something! We
will support you!"

When such a time comes, and you have this urge to step
up to the plate and attempt to save the country that you
love and whose borders you defended all your life, politely
say, "no thank you! You do it if you want".

#8 Hamidm is too busy being a lota right now..swivelling 180 degrees to face what he thinks are the new rising suns!!

hamidm2,

Murgha please. Thank you.

That's the honorable thing to do.

Thanks.

#6 Posted by tahmed32 on August 18, 2008 4:55:38 am


it is the ordinary people of Pakistan.


which ordinary people? the ordinary people dancing in the streets when nawaz was overthrown by mushy?

Amer bhai: despite having invented the internet, you dont really get it. it is not "kiyani" or "nawaz sharif" or "zardari" any scoundrel needs to fear - it is the ordinary people of Pakistan. Who brought the rogue general to his knees. And whom politicians and even generals with the nations guns at their disposal can ignore only at their peril - as musharraf found out. as zardari (who has a similar arrogant disregard for the public, regardless of his fake humility) will find out if he continues his current path of palace intrigues.

hamidm #4 sheikh rashid and kiyani suggest you do the lota dance in someone else's honor...you were doing "hosni muhsarraf zindabad" last year, and look what happened to him!!

...... okay, the dog finally caught the car ! ..... now let us see what he does with it .......

sheikh rashid zindabad !
general kiyani zindabad !

Excellent post but its like kicking someone when he is already down. I am amazed that how a lot of people have suddenly found morality (Dr. Amir Liaquat) and balls to stand against Musharraf when they realized he is weak.

Amer Nazir

Excellent post, so there is retribution.

Watch here:

http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/56760