Save Me From Charismatic Leaders!
Dost Mittar August 29, 2008
#75 Posted by harimau on September 7, 2008 7:49:08 pm
Ref dost_mittar #25
[The Maruti car, including the name, was actually Sanjay Gandhi's project although he died before its complettion.]
Actually, the Maruti car project was an utter failure.
Bansi Lal, the thug of a chief minister of Haryana, appropriated 200+ acres of prime farmland for the factory. Having curried favor with Indira Gandhi by supporting her son, he ran a ruthless administration in his state with no opposition from the Centre.
The factory was a mess. Sanjay Gandhi's sole qualification was that he was apprenticed to an automobile manufacturer in England (when he flunked academic studies... not anything unusual: his mom flunked college too!). The car he produced was more like a golf cart and would not have met any roadworthiness standards. In any other country, Sanjay Gandhi would have been jailed for securities fraud: he collected millions of rupees from dealers hoping to sell his car and could not pay them back. He was bailed out by bringing in Suzuki as the foreign collaborator and a TamBrahm as the MD of the enterprise. With that combination, the first Suzuki cars were assembled in India and the nameplate "Maruti" was tacked on to the car to prove it was an indigenous car.
We have a saying in Tamil: "trying to make an idol of Ganesh and ending up with a monkey". Sanjay's car factory is an example of what happens when you attempt to start making a monkey (Maruti)!
[The Maruti car, including the name, was actually Sanjay Gandhi's project although he died before its complettion.]
Actually, the Maruti car project was an utter failure.
Bansi Lal, the thug of a chief minister of Haryana, appropriated 200+ acres of prime farmland for the factory. Having curried favor with Indira Gandhi by supporting her son, he ran a ruthless administration in his state with no opposition from the Centre.
The factory was a mess. Sanjay Gandhi's sole qualification was that he was apprenticed to an automobile manufacturer in England (when he flunked academic studies... not anything unusual: his mom flunked college too!). The car he produced was more like a golf cart and would not have met any roadworthiness standards. In any other country, Sanjay Gandhi would have been jailed for securities fraud: he collected millions of rupees from dealers hoping to sell his car and could not pay them back. He was bailed out by bringing in Suzuki as the foreign collaborator and a TamBrahm as the MD of the enterprise. With that combination, the first Suzuki cars were assembled in India and the nameplate "Maruti" was tacked on to the car to prove it was an indigenous car.
We have a saying in Tamil: "trying to make an idol of Ganesh and ending up with a monkey". Sanjay's car factory is an example of what happens when you attempt to start making a monkey (Maruti)!
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#74 Posted by harimau on September 7, 2008 6:28:57 pm
Ref dost_mittar #50
[He (Nehru) was swayed by the Fabian Socialist philosophy which was quite fashionable in the intellectual circles in England during the time he was a student there; if he had gone to Chicago during the 60s, he would have been a Friedman free-market man.]
No matter where and when he lived, he would have been a faggot.
[He (Nehru) was swayed by the Fabian Socialist philosophy which was quite fashionable in the intellectual circles in England during the time he was a student there; if he had gone to Chicago during the 60s, he would have been a Friedman free-market man.]
No matter where and when he lived, he would have been a faggot.
#73 Posted by harimau on September 7, 2008 6:25:23 pm
Ref satya100 #56
[If mahatma had lived 10 years longer and if we had emocratized science and technology by Hindiazing, Marathiazing .. smart IITians and their professors working with rural ccoperative sugar and cotton mills we would not see todays extremes of Ambanies, Tatas and suicides of farmers.]
Give me a break!
Some 10 years back, an American visited factories in China and India to see where he can source products for the US market.
His observation wa that China had factories but India had organized cottage industries trying to make industrial products!
With Gandhi alive, we would have been spinning charkhas (wheels spinnming cotton into yarn, a technology that went out in the 17th century) cometing against mills in Lancashire that were producing a mile of yarn every 40 seconds in the 18th century... God only knows what the current speed of those machines might be.
Gandhi would have ensured that we all lived in villages, made our own clothes, raised our own crops, washed our own clothes and died a miserable death without the use of modern medicines after a short brutish life.
Of course, Nehru and Indira Gandhi ensured that that remains the fate of 85% of India's population, thus fulfilling Bapuji's vision.
[He should have banned Crompton Greaves, greaves Cottons, Hindustan Motors and even Tatas unless they indianize and innovate using local resources and talents. Those guys were mere traders.]
Tatas built India's first steel plant in Jamshedpur. Gandhi wasn't forcing them to Indianize anything at that time. In fact, Tatas had to fight the cheap British steel imports to establish their factory.
[Imagine what would have happened if we had Marathiazed Resnick Halidays, Tomo Shinkoes and even Xenu. Our village kids in vernacular media could have acquired B. Tech level understanding at age 18.]
The grand experiment in taking technology education to the village masses is being attempted in Tamil Nadu. All entrance exams to engineering institutions have been abolished and close to 50% of engineering admissions in Tamil Nadu have been from rural folks educated in the Tamil medium through their high schools years. The fact that they are flunking out is a totally different story!
[If one looks at Hungarian, Rusian and now Chinese math circles in preparation for Math Olympiad we see this in working.]
You have no clue about the Math Olympiad or any other educational Olympiad for that matter. Though Indian kids are taught in English, they have managed to acquit themselves respectably in the Math Olympiads, winning medals. (My sister-in-law is one among the teachers who coach the Indian Olympiad team so I can claim to know a bit more than you do). They have also done well this year in the Informatics/Computer Science Olympiad.
[If mahatma had lived 10 years longer and if we had emocratized science and technology by Hindiazing, Marathiazing .. smart IITians and their professors working with rural ccoperative sugar and cotton mills we would not see todays extremes of Ambanies, Tatas and suicides of farmers.]
Give me a break!
Some 10 years back, an American visited factories in China and India to see where he can source products for the US market.
His observation wa that China had factories but India had organized cottage industries trying to make industrial products!
With Gandhi alive, we would have been spinning charkhas (wheels spinnming cotton into yarn, a technology that went out in the 17th century) cometing against mills in Lancashire that were producing a mile of yarn every 40 seconds in the 18th century... God only knows what the current speed of those machines might be.
Gandhi would have ensured that we all lived in villages, made our own clothes, raised our own crops, washed our own clothes and died a miserable death without the use of modern medicines after a short brutish life.
Of course, Nehru and Indira Gandhi ensured that that remains the fate of 85% of India's population, thus fulfilling Bapuji's vision.
[He should have banned Crompton Greaves, greaves Cottons, Hindustan Motors and even Tatas unless they indianize and innovate using local resources and talents. Those guys were mere traders.]
Tatas built India's first steel plant in Jamshedpur. Gandhi wasn't forcing them to Indianize anything at that time. In fact, Tatas had to fight the cheap British steel imports to establish their factory.
[Imagine what would have happened if we had Marathiazed Resnick Halidays, Tomo Shinkoes and even Xenu. Our village kids in vernacular media could have acquired B. Tech level understanding at age 18.]
The grand experiment in taking technology education to the village masses is being attempted in Tamil Nadu. All entrance exams to engineering institutions have been abolished and close to 50% of engineering admissions in Tamil Nadu have been from rural folks educated in the Tamil medium through their high schools years. The fact that they are flunking out is a totally different story!
[If one looks at Hungarian, Rusian and now Chinese math circles in preparation for Math Olympiad we see this in working.]
You have no clue about the Math Olympiad or any other educational Olympiad for that matter. Though Indian kids are taught in English, they have managed to acquit themselves respectably in the Math Olympiads, winning medals. (My sister-in-law is one among the teachers who coach the Indian Olympiad team so I can claim to know a bit more than you do). They have also done well this year in the Informatics/Computer Science Olympiad.
#72 Posted by teshah on September 7, 2008 6:53:21 am
A boring article by a 'chrismatc' writer.
You did not say any thing about Mahatma Gandhi who pushed Nehru into leadership perhaps to prevent Subhash Bose, another chrishmatic (a super-one perhaps)leader, to become the president of the Indian National Congress.
You did not say any thing about Mahatma Gandhi who pushed Nehru into leadership perhaps to prevent Subhash Bose, another chrishmatic (a super-one perhaps)leader, to become the president of the Indian National Congress.
#71 Posted by tahmed32 on September 4, 2008 8:07:48 pm
quin #70: I agree that emotions have their place as does reason. its just that there is a time for both.
I am reminded of a joke here (and please excuse since it is a bit off-color): Man says that the perfect wife would be one who is an economist in the kitchen, an aristocrat in the living room, and a whore in the bedroom. His friend replies, but suppose she turns out to be an aristocrat in the kitchen, a whore in the living room, and an economist in the bedroom.
Ii see a similar mixup when you form opinions about the US based on fears and emotions that are the remnants of colonial rule, rather than based on an objective look at today's facts and realities. Lets leave emotions aside, and look at the cold, hard political realities of today - the tremendous opportunities as well as dangers facing mankind as a whole today. If anything, one needs to use one's reasoning abilities even more - not less - than when designing a plane.
Nice chatting with you.
I am reminded of a joke here (and please excuse since it is a bit off-color): Man says that the perfect wife would be one who is an economist in the kitchen, an aristocrat in the living room, and a whore in the bedroom. His friend replies, but suppose she turns out to be an aristocrat in the kitchen, a whore in the living room, and an economist in the bedroom.
Ii see a similar mixup when you form opinions about the US based on fears and emotions that are the remnants of colonial rule, rather than based on an objective look at today's facts and realities. Lets leave emotions aside, and look at the cold, hard political realities of today - the tremendous opportunities as well as dangers facing mankind as a whole today. If anything, one needs to use one's reasoning abilities even more - not less - than when designing a plane.
Nice chatting with you.
#70 Posted by quin on September 4, 2008 6:24:43 pm
Re: # 67 tahmed32, I appreciate for your thoughtful response.
I don't think there is any fundamental contradiction which need to be reconciled between my two posts . It is true that one could be said to be from right brain and the other from left. But don't we need both parts of our brain to really understand things in their totality. I know first we need to analyze, but then we do need to synthesize. And that is where both brains are needed. David Thoreau said, knowledge comes in flashes (meaning not just in details).
Anyway, the point is that the feelings I expressed about Obama's presidency are personal. Having said that, I do think that we make decisions by a mix of logic and emotion. This fact can't be denied. Examples are everywhere. True, planes and such engineering and scientific work cannot be done by emotions only, but even in those emotions (passion) and imagination have been driving the logic and inquiry in many cases. Einstein’s ideas about light came from his ridiculous feelings of his traveling over the beam of light.
What I was trying to say that the two ideas one being objective about political matters, and the other being subjective about Obama's presidency, do not contradict, because I am not presenting my subjectivity as an argument. That subjectivity is expressed in spite of the argument. Politics is not a feat of engineering. Politics does involve both parts of our brains no matter how much we want to be objective. And that subjectivity is part of the bigger objective truth.
Therefore I can analyze to see where I will cast my vote in the best interest (not in US of course - I don't live there) of civil society, but I may still have personal reasons for wishing that my candidate does not win. It must be called paradoxical-irony. The world is full of paradoxes and ironies and sometime they combine like hydrogen and oxygen to make something new.
And talking about terminologies, I did not use empiro-imperialists for neo-cons. Empire building will not stop no matter who is at helm of affairs until the helm is a helm of an empire. This is an "American Century", words from neo-cons lexicon. The words may change in a democratic government but this still will remain an American Century for foreseeable future – definitely not going to change in next 4 to 8 years – no matter how much slogan of CHANGE is drummed up. Probably Bill Clinton was right when he said, Obama's is the biggest fantasy. Still I would like that Obama wins, but I dread for the regrets which many will have later.
I don't think there is any fundamental contradiction which need to be reconciled between my two posts . It is true that one could be said to be from right brain and the other from left. But don't we need both parts of our brain to really understand things in their totality. I know first we need to analyze, but then we do need to synthesize. And that is where both brains are needed. David Thoreau said, knowledge comes in flashes (meaning not just in details).
Anyway, the point is that the feelings I expressed about Obama's presidency are personal. Having said that, I do think that we make decisions by a mix of logic and emotion. This fact can't be denied. Examples are everywhere. True, planes and such engineering and scientific work cannot be done by emotions only, but even in those emotions (passion) and imagination have been driving the logic and inquiry in many cases. Einstein’s ideas about light came from his ridiculous feelings of his traveling over the beam of light.
What I was trying to say that the two ideas one being objective about political matters, and the other being subjective about Obama's presidency, do not contradict, because I am not presenting my subjectivity as an argument. That subjectivity is expressed in spite of the argument. Politics is not a feat of engineering. Politics does involve both parts of our brains no matter how much we want to be objective. And that subjectivity is part of the bigger objective truth.
Therefore I can analyze to see where I will cast my vote in the best interest (not in US of course - I don't live there) of civil society, but I may still have personal reasons for wishing that my candidate does not win. It must be called paradoxical-irony. The world is full of paradoxes and ironies and sometime they combine like hydrogen and oxygen to make something new.
And talking about terminologies, I did not use empiro-imperialists for neo-cons. Empire building will not stop no matter who is at helm of affairs until the helm is a helm of an empire. This is an "American Century", words from neo-cons lexicon. The words may change in a democratic government but this still will remain an American Century for foreseeable future – definitely not going to change in next 4 to 8 years – no matter how much slogan of CHANGE is drummed up. Probably Bill Clinton was right when he said, Obama's is the biggest fantasy. Still I would like that Obama wins, but I dread for the regrets which many will have later.
#69 Posted by pinku on September 3, 2008 3:23:34 pm
Re #61 Posted by dost_mittar on,
So you mean to say that we shouldn't hurt political Islam necessarily or unnecessarily? or in other words politics of Islam?? In that case all countries should be amde into Islamic countries (because that is what you will need to do eventually, if you don't want to hurt Islam, doesn't mater whether they use bomb or sword or politics or whatever).
You are right, there were no bombs exploding before babri masjid, but all problems related to Islam (all over the world) were same. Earlier, you used to have hindu-muslim riots, right?? Now we have graduated to bombs and AK-47s?
The Babri masjid demolition is something good in one way, first it gave an idea that Hindus can do large scale violence. Secondly people in India got to know of at least one problem properly. The fight was on something stupid and in all probability whatever Hindus say about Babri Masjid is true and muslims know it. But this symbolic fight made both the communities aware of the actual situation with respect to their religious biases and how it can lead to confrontation.
There was no time when political Islam was not doing what it is doing today, even if means were different. We didn't have RDX and AK-47s not so long ago, but we did have conflicts because of political Islam. Babri masjid and 9/11 exposed the basis, extent and potential of political Islam. Pakistan created Taliban much before 9/11 and Saudi Arabia has been spreading Wahabi Islam (with petro dollars) since ever and whatever Taliban finds in Kuran was not written recently nor was their interpretation new. Even the middle east problem was there for long.
So the difference is that eventually fundamentalist Islam graduated into new era war-fare, the RDX and AK-47. Do you know of any country where muslims are not in majority and they don't have animosity towards majority in that country??
So you mean to say that we shouldn't hurt political Islam necessarily or unnecessarily? or in other words politics of Islam?? In that case all countries should be amde into Islamic countries (because that is what you will need to do eventually, if you don't want to hurt Islam, doesn't mater whether they use bomb or sword or politics or whatever).
You are right, there were no bombs exploding before babri masjid, but all problems related to Islam (all over the world) were same. Earlier, you used to have hindu-muslim riots, right?? Now we have graduated to bombs and AK-47s?
The Babri masjid demolition is something good in one way, first it gave an idea that Hindus can do large scale violence. Secondly people in India got to know of at least one problem properly. The fight was on something stupid and in all probability whatever Hindus say about Babri Masjid is true and muslims know it. But this symbolic fight made both the communities aware of the actual situation with respect to their religious biases and how it can lead to confrontation.
There was no time when political Islam was not doing what it is doing today, even if means were different. We didn't have RDX and AK-47s not so long ago, but we did have conflicts because of political Islam. Babri masjid and 9/11 exposed the basis, extent and potential of political Islam. Pakistan created Taliban much before 9/11 and Saudi Arabia has been spreading Wahabi Islam (with petro dollars) since ever and whatever Taliban finds in Kuran was not written recently nor was their interpretation new. Even the middle east problem was there for long.
So the difference is that eventually fundamentalist Islam graduated into new era war-fare, the RDX and AK-47. Do you know of any country where muslims are not in majority and they don't have animosity towards majority in that country??
#68 Posted by dost_mittar on September 3, 2008 6:15:44 am
Majumdar#62:
In general, it is true that political parties would favour the country of the majority community, but you should remember that the majority political party in Kashmir was headed by Sheikh Abdullah, a friend of Nehru and no friend of Jinnah.
In general, it is true that political parties would favour the country of the majority community, but you should remember that the majority political party in Kashmir was headed by Sheikh Abdullah, a friend of Nehru and no friend of Jinnah.
#67 Posted by tahmed32 on September 3, 2008 5:23:22 am
quin #60 The broad-guaged perspective you provide in this post is indeed what we need to keep in mind in discussing large issues like the role of the US or the west. In other words, you are rightly pointing out that "progress", driven in recent centuries basically by the west, is a double edged sword - while on the one hand it provides undoubted benefits, on the other hand it can have unintended affects (environmental impact e.g.).
How do you reconcile the above with what you say in post #59 that you wrote just before the above, where you say " I don't want to see Obama winning - though personal feelings aside - it may be good for history - as it will expose further true face of empiro-imperialists."?
By "empiro-imperialists" i think you are merely coining a dramatic term for what are commonly known as neo-cons, and who are now on retreat after Bush's disastrous term comes to an end. This clearly implies that you have this belief, as so many Pakistanis (even otherwise intelligent and successful Pakistanis, and even those with sons and daughters in the US) do, that the US is some kind of an omnipotent being ruled by an "inner circle" that has god-like powers with satanic intentions.
So, while your post #60 seems to represent the "left side of the brain", i.e. reason and understanding, post #59 represents the "right side", i.e. atavistic emotions and fears. You design planes using facts and reason, not emotions and fears. Shouldnt one form political views on the same basis?
The reason I seem "passionate" in referring to the contributions of the west is because I think it is this blind, emotional anti-westernism that has caused muslim societies to lag behind the rest of the world. To become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution, to the challenges that face all humanity. Not because of the "white man's worship" as Masadi keeps parroting every day.
How do you reconcile the above with what you say in post #59 that you wrote just before the above, where you say " I don't want to see Obama winning - though personal feelings aside - it may be good for history - as it will expose further true face of empiro-imperialists."?
By "empiro-imperialists" i think you are merely coining a dramatic term for what are commonly known as neo-cons, and who are now on retreat after Bush's disastrous term comes to an end. This clearly implies that you have this belief, as so many Pakistanis (even otherwise intelligent and successful Pakistanis, and even those with sons and daughters in the US) do, that the US is some kind of an omnipotent being ruled by an "inner circle" that has god-like powers with satanic intentions.
So, while your post #60 seems to represent the "left side of the brain", i.e. reason and understanding, post #59 represents the "right side", i.e. atavistic emotions and fears. You design planes using facts and reason, not emotions and fears. Shouldnt one form political views on the same basis?
The reason I seem "passionate" in referring to the contributions of the west is because I think it is this blind, emotional anti-westernism that has caused muslim societies to lag behind the rest of the world. To become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution, to the challenges that face all humanity. Not because of the "white man's worship" as Masadi keeps parroting every day.
#66 Posted by nkg on September 3, 2008 2:01:45 am
Re: # 65
Majumder...
S N Bose may not be successful, but he felt the need for translating science and technology books in local language to make it popular...
Large number students were deprived of quality content due to language barrier. Fortunately, now a days, people are getteing better quality local books.
Majumder...
S N Bose may not be successful, but he felt the need for translating science and technology books in local language to make it popular...
Large number students were deprived of quality content due to language barrier. Fortunately, now a days, people are getteing better quality local books.
#65 Posted by majumdar on September 3, 2008 12:46:14 am
Nkg moshai,
He tried to make science and technology books avilable in Bengali.
Can you name one Bengali scientist who made it big after reading one of SNB's S&T book in the Bangla language?
Regards
He tried to make science and technology books avilable in Bengali.
Can you name one Bengali scientist who made it big after reading one of SNB's S&T book in the Bangla language?
Regards
#64 Posted by nkg on September 3, 2008 12:42:52 am
Re: # 61
DM...
Exactly, these are the excuses the terrorists are making everywhere- be it in London, Madrid, Thailand, India, Philipines etc....
What about bombing in Bangalore, Coimbatore, Hubli?
Muslims know, in this era of fractured mandate, how 15% vote matters. Let the BJP gets 2/3 majority in next election. All these will go away....
DM...
Exactly, these are the excuses the terrorists are making everywhere- be it in London, Madrid, Thailand, India, Philipines etc....
What about bombing in Bangalore, Coimbatore, Hubli?
Muslims know, in this era of fractured mandate, how 15% vote matters. Let the BJP gets 2/3 majority in next election. All these will go away....
#63 Posted by nkg on September 3, 2008 12:36:12 am
Re: # 50
DM...
Yes, whatever I have said is correct, but you put in decent way. Nehru's intention was clear. To make name from the 3000 year old civilisation. With his personal ability, he could, at most, have been legal advisor to a landlord; nothing more. What organisation he has created himself? How much of India he travelled and known? Where he showed his success in showing organisational skill?
Nowhere. Apart from being part of dirty mobsters like Nasser, Tito etc..., he has no good friends in international arena.
He had inherited monopoly of Congress and exploited that in full extent....
Satya, I fully agree with you. Even, noted scientist, like S N Bose (Boson particle named after him), were votary of that. He tried to make science and technology books avilable in Bengali.
China and Russia is good example of how to develop science by translating the books into local language. Even Iran is trying that....
Your comment about Nehru and Indira was correct....
Anyhow, India is changing. The new regional leaders should take initiative and make their own state prosperous. That will contribute more to India. Congress has to be cornered to maximum extent. Fortunately, so far, BJP is doing quite well.
DM...
Yes, whatever I have said is correct, but you put in decent way. Nehru's intention was clear. To make name from the 3000 year old civilisation. With his personal ability, he could, at most, have been legal advisor to a landlord; nothing more. What organisation he has created himself? How much of India he travelled and known? Where he showed his success in showing organisational skill?
Nowhere. Apart from being part of dirty mobsters like Nasser, Tito etc..., he has no good friends in international arena.
He had inherited monopoly of Congress and exploited that in full extent....
Satya, I fully agree with you. Even, noted scientist, like S N Bose (Boson particle named after him), were votary of that. He tried to make science and technology books avilable in Bengali.
China and Russia is good example of how to develop science by translating the books into local language. Even Iran is trying that....
Your comment about Nehru and Indira was correct....
Anyhow, India is changing. The new regional leaders should take initiative and make their own state prosperous. That will contribute more to India. Congress has to be cornered to maximum extent. Fortunately, so far, BJP is doing quite well.
#62 Posted by majumdar on September 2, 2008 10:37:29 pm
DM sahib,
Re: 51
I think we have read more or less the same version. INC's position was that state political parties were to be consulted, which was ethically correct and meant de facto TNT because parties in Muslim dominated states were likely to vote for Pak, In Hindoo states to vote for India. In that sense you have to say that INC had a more consistent state.
MAJ (pbuh) and ML OTOH took a different stand and the whole subcontinent paid a price for it. If I remember correct it was GM who encouraged MAJ (pbuh) to intrigue with Nizam.
Regards
Re: 51
I think we have read more or less the same version. INC's position was that state political parties were to be consulted, which was ethically correct and meant de facto TNT because parties in Muslim dominated states were likely to vote for Pak, In Hindoo states to vote for India. In that sense you have to say that INC had a more consistent state.
MAJ (pbuh) and ML OTOH took a different stand and the whole subcontinent paid a price for it. If I remember correct it was GM who encouraged MAJ (pbuh) to intrigue with Nizam.
Regards
#61 Posted by dost_mittar on September 2, 2008 6:23:31 pm
pinku#57:
If you think that those things will resolve Kashmir issues for you, go ahead and try; but don't start complaining if the blowback makes things worse; remember, there were no bombs exploding in India before the Babri masjid demolition and Ahmedabad killings.
If you think that those things will resolve Kashmir issues for you, go ahead and try; but don't start complaining if the blowback makes things worse; remember, there were no bombs exploding in India before the Babri masjid demolition and Ahmedabad killings.
#60 Posted by quin on September 2, 2008 6:21:39 pm
Re: # 49 tahmed32,
My assertion might have been simplistic as the topic is so big that many books can be written on this. I add here just a few more remarks.
I know West has made important contribution, in all fields of life, from science to art, from culture to politics. Its contribution has been part of its material progress. And the material progress has been through empire buildings. Empire building is a curse that humanity has not learned to avoid. With progress or rather hand in hand with progress comes this curse.
I do admire your passion for defending the good aspects of the West. In a way, it does express a part of my convictions. But at the same time we cannot discount the fact that with material progress comes this curse of desire to control and exploit the resources from all over the world. That is why in every phase of the history there have been empires who brutally tried to control the rest of the worlds. Ours is an American Century. That is all.
I have no hostility towards any empire. Being hostile to an empire is as being hostile to let us say a tornado or to an ice-age. It is a phenomenon beyond our control. All we can hope to do is to better understand mechanism of this phenomenon and come up with some practical solutions to channel the energies towards the benefit of all humanity.
Truth always lies somewhere between the two extremes, beyond the paradox, beyond black and white.
Regarding half-baked ideologies which you have disdained, I agree the one you have cited are extremely misguided attempts which have been fundamentally attempts in each of those particular geo-political entities to solve their issues. The Islamic one is the worst as it has drained all good energies of meaningful progress in those areas. However, there have been better attempts to solve their issues through still half baked ideologies, for example former USSR and in China. The question fundamentally is that is it better to make an attempt to change things or accept the status quo.
Regarding basket case analogy - to me in the final analysis the whole world is a basket case because of our extreme immaturity. This world is run by "boys in suits" as one of my colleague used to say.
My assertion might have been simplistic as the topic is so big that many books can be written on this. I add here just a few more remarks.
I know West has made important contribution, in all fields of life, from science to art, from culture to politics. Its contribution has been part of its material progress. And the material progress has been through empire buildings. Empire building is a curse that humanity has not learned to avoid. With progress or rather hand in hand with progress comes this curse.
I do admire your passion for defending the good aspects of the West. In a way, it does express a part of my convictions. But at the same time we cannot discount the fact that with material progress comes this curse of desire to control and exploit the resources from all over the world. That is why in every phase of the history there have been empires who brutally tried to control the rest of the worlds. Ours is an American Century. That is all.
I have no hostility towards any empire. Being hostile to an empire is as being hostile to let us say a tornado or to an ice-age. It is a phenomenon beyond our control. All we can hope to do is to better understand mechanism of this phenomenon and come up with some practical solutions to channel the energies towards the benefit of all humanity.
Truth always lies somewhere between the two extremes, beyond the paradox, beyond black and white.
Regarding half-baked ideologies which you have disdained, I agree the one you have cited are extremely misguided attempts which have been fundamentally attempts in each of those particular geo-political entities to solve their issues. The Islamic one is the worst as it has drained all good energies of meaningful progress in those areas. However, there have been better attempts to solve their issues through still half baked ideologies, for example former USSR and in China. The question fundamentally is that is it better to make an attempt to change things or accept the status quo.
Regarding basket case analogy - to me in the final analysis the whole world is a basket case because of our extreme immaturity. This world is run by "boys in suits" as one of my colleague used to say.
#59 Posted by quin on September 2, 2008 5:47:40 pm
Re: # 43, there are no better words than how you have described the gist of the matter in a succinct and brimming metaphor.
BHO ...."is their lubricated condom."
and this is shamefully ironic. I just cringe at the idea of seeing a black (almost a Muslim) to be sacrificed on their altar. Call it genetic stuff or leftist sympathy, or what, I don't want to see Obama winning - though personal feelings aside - it may be good for history - as it will expose further true face of empiro-imperialists.
thanks for your input
BHO ...."is their lubricated condom."
and this is shamefully ironic. I just cringe at the idea of seeing a black (almost a Muslim) to be sacrificed on their altar. Call it genetic stuff or leftist sympathy, or what, I don't want to see Obama winning - though personal feelings aside - it may be good for history - as it will expose further true face of empiro-imperialists.
thanks for your input
#58 Posted by SR on September 2, 2008 2:23:29 pm
Re: # 44 hamzaad re: Why Burraq
To lend a helping hand to Fox. They want to say he is a Muslim. Spread the word.
Burraq, is the legendary horse, lightening fast, upon whom Mohammed is supposed to have ascended to the heavens during miraj (mirage?) ...
Follow the money:
BHO = 61%
JMcC = 39%
This is the breakup for the flow of funds into the electronic futures contracts. This is real money. The market clearly seems to predict an almost landslide for the Democraps.
These 'market predictions' have been consistently accurate since their inception in 1988. That is five presidential races so far. Sixth one coming up now.
...SR
To lend a helping hand to Fox. They want to say he is a Muslim. Spread the word.
Burraq, is the legendary horse, lightening fast, upon whom Mohammed is supposed to have ascended to the heavens during miraj (mirage?) ...
Follow the money:
BHO = 61%
JMcC = 39%
This is the breakup for the flow of funds into the electronic futures contracts. This is real money. The market clearly seems to predict an almost landslide for the Democraps.
These 'market predictions' have been consistently accurate since their inception in 1988. That is five presidential races so far. Sixth one coming up now.
...SR
#57 Posted by pinku on September 2, 2008 12:20:36 pm
Dost Mittar,
Pakistan did a good job of killing around 500 militants recently. Do you think we can kill say around 50 militants in Kashmir in similar fashion (with smoe Air Force Jets and Helicopters and asking people to leave Kashmir till we bomb it):-) That will break the backbone of Islamic militants but their head in ISI and Saudi Arabia will still survive.
What do you say?
Do you think we should have a UN resolution separating religion and states and disallowing Shaira as state law, that will break the head of the militants:-)
Can we get some vote on this from citizens of Islamic states, like Pakistan. A plebcite of sorts:-) (Do we need that, it is almost obvious so just do it??)
Then we should disallow union of nations on the basis of religion.
Then "no book is word of God" will be on all UN seals, an emblem of sorts.
Just do these things and world will start accepting muslims as normal people and Islam as normal religion.
with regards,
God
#56 Posted by satya100 on September 2, 2008 8:08:08 am
If mahatma had lived 10 years longer and if we had emocratized science and technology by Hindiazing, Marathiazing .. smart IITians and their professors working with rural ccoperative sugar and cotton mills we would not see todays extremes of Ambanies, Tatas and suicides of farmers.
He should have banned Crompton Greaves, greaves Cottons, Hindustan Motors and even Tatas unless they indianize and innovate using local resources and talents. Those guys were mere traders. Imagine what would have happened if we had Marathiazed Resnick Halidays, Tomo Shinkoes and even Xenu. Our village kids in vernacular media could have acquired B. Tech level understanding at age 18.
If one looks at Hungarian, Rusian and now Chinese math circles in preparation for Math Olympiad we see this in working.
Indians should have made sure that anglophile BA (Hon.)s of Murarilal G types have no place in democratic Panchayat Raj India. yes one more India should have banned Mughlai G-giri in the garb of Hindi cinema who only created melancholy of type 'Khiza Ke Phhol Pe Sathi Kabhi Bahar Nahin. " Those G poets and shayar should have been used for rifle firing practice.
He should have banned Crompton Greaves, greaves Cottons, Hindustan Motors and even Tatas unless they indianize and innovate using local resources and talents. Those guys were mere traders. Imagine what would have happened if we had Marathiazed Resnick Halidays, Tomo Shinkoes and even Xenu. Our village kids in vernacular media could have acquired B. Tech level understanding at age 18.
If one looks at Hungarian, Rusian and now Chinese math circles in preparation for Math Olympiad we see this in working.
Indians should have made sure that anglophile BA (Hon.)s of Murarilal G types have no place in democratic Panchayat Raj India. yes one more India should have banned Mughlai G-giri in the garb of Hindi cinema who only created melancholy of type 'Khiza Ke Phhol Pe Sathi Kabhi Bahar Nahin. " Those G poets and shayar should have been used for rifle firing practice.
#55 Posted by satya100 on September 2, 2008 7:49:35 am
I remember reading about Sanjay getting demoed Ichalkaranji mfged Panditrao designed car, better than Maruti 800cc but with price tag of less than Rs.4K in 1972. Panditrao was exporting fuel injection gear and even the machine blocks to go with it to Australia, UK and Poland. Our folks such as Mahadba Mistries were copying and manufacturing very well Fire Engines and other assorted mechanically high tech stuff even in small places such as Kolhapur. Given an opportunity they might not have designed and developed better T72 but at least an armor carrier.
These good simple folks did not have any representation in Delhi Durbabr full of durbari Gs whose only qualification was Doon school accent.
We should have had more Vasant Dada Patils, Narsimh Rao and Chaudhary Charan Singhs. Nehru and his daughter was not good for them.
In all fairness Nehru was good for India, but as Foreign Minister or as a permanent ambassador to UN or UK. He was a good man of principles, honest to the core and sacrificed a lot for India for which we need to celebrate his birthdays and name lots of roads in his honor. He was way above dracula and Allha ki Maa as a human and leader. His daughter was better. She was "real" man in 70s. She should have continued emergency to discipline the country and to get rid of corruption.
These good simple folks did not have any representation in Delhi Durbabr full of durbari Gs whose only qualification was Doon school accent.
We should have had more Vasant Dada Patils, Narsimh Rao and Chaudhary Charan Singhs. Nehru and his daughter was not good for them.
In all fairness Nehru was good for India, but as Foreign Minister or as a permanent ambassador to UN or UK. He was a good man of principles, honest to the core and sacrificed a lot for India for which we need to celebrate his birthdays and name lots of roads in his honor. He was way above dracula and Allha ki Maa as a human and leader. His daughter was better. She was "real" man in 70s. She should have continued emergency to discipline the country and to get rid of corruption.
#54 Posted by satya100 on September 2, 2008 7:28:10 am
Genesis of Cashmere problem is Nehrus chiknaness "Log (British chiknas) Kya Kahenges?"
He tried very hard but he could not get rid of his firangness and Mughlai out of him. Delhi durbar was crowded by BA (Hon.)
who were eloquent of type "To be or Not To be" types. We should have had Indianized Panchayat Raj to make sure that Murarilals (aka Murad ScumBaig) and Rukhsana Sultanas were NOT TO BE in delhi durbar.
He tried very hard but he could not get rid of his firangness and Mughlai out of him. Delhi durbar was crowded by BA (Hon.)
who were eloquent of type "To be or Not To be" types. We should have had Indianized Panchayat Raj to make sure that Murarilals (aka Murad ScumBaig) and Rukhsana Sultanas were NOT TO BE in delhi durbar.
#53 Posted by satya100 on September 2, 2008 7:15:45 am
Nehru was a trying to remain Chikna in western eye. In domestic affairs he was autocratic.
Two things should have happened:
1. Dissolution of kangress in 1947 as per Mahatma Gandhis suggestion
2. Ban on Northies becoming PM for next 100 years, because Mughlai had seeped to their DNA. Mughlai and British Shahi where sychophants are rewarded with watans will not allow true democracy, pride in native culture and talent.
I might add one more moving capital to Nagpur.
Two things should have happened:
1. Dissolution of kangress in 1947 as per Mahatma Gandhis suggestion
2. Ban on Northies becoming PM for next 100 years, because Mughlai had seeped to their DNA. Mughlai and British Shahi where sychophants are rewarded with watans will not allow true democracy, pride in native culture and talent.
I might add one more moving capital to Nagpur.
#52 Posted by satya100 on September 2, 2008 7:08:52 am
"When the time came for Thimayya to retire, it was expected that the brilliant commander of proven ability, Gen S P P Thorat, would be made chief superseding Gen Thapar. But the government opted for the meek and submissive Thapar, much to the disappointment of almost the entire officer cadre in the army.
"I remember many a time when our senior generals came to us, and wrote to the defence ministry saying that they wanted certain things... If we had had foresight, known exactly what would happen, we would have done something else... what India has learnt from the Chinese invasion is that in the world of today there is no place for weak nations... We have been living in an unreal world of our own creation."
Jawaharlal Nehru, Rajya Sabha, 1963
Instead of "I", Nehru used the collective "we", a clear indication of his reluctance to own up his own mistakes as a man.
"
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/18chin.htm
"I remember many a time when our senior generals came to us, and wrote to the defence ministry saying that they wanted certain things... If we had had foresight, known exactly what would happen, we would have done something else... what India has learnt from the Chinese invasion is that in the world of today there is no place for weak nations... We have been living in an unreal world of our own creation."
Jawaharlal Nehru, Rajya Sabha, 1963
Instead of "I", Nehru used the collective "we", a clear indication of his reluctance to own up his own mistakes as a man.
"
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/18chin.htm
#51 Posted by dost_mittar on September 2, 2008 5:31:05 am
majumdar#47:
I have read a somewhat different version of what happened wrt princely states. The Congress did not ask for division on the basis of religion of the majority but to take the will of the state political parties into consideration; Jinnah rejected this proposition and said that only the sovereign rulers should have the authority to make such a decision; the British accepted Jinnah's position. As you have correctly pointed out, he was thinking primarily of Hyderabad because he thought that Kashmir would fall into his lap like a ripened apple.
I have read a somewhat different version of what happened wrt princely states. The Congress did not ask for division on the basis of religion of the majority but to take the will of the state political parties into consideration; Jinnah rejected this proposition and said that only the sovereign rulers should have the authority to make such a decision; the British accepted Jinnah's position. As you have correctly pointed out, he was thinking primarily of Hyderabad because he thought that Kashmir would fall into his lap like a ripened apple.
#50 Posted by dost_mittar on September 2, 2008 5:24:11 am
nkg#41:
I do not doubt Nehru's intentions; I am sure that he loved India as much as you and I do and probably more, and he had visions of a great India playing an important role in the world.
His father was not a "munshi" but a well-known lawyer of Allahabad and his grandfather was a darogha in Delhi. He was swayed by the Fabian Socialist philosophy which was quite fashionable in the intellectual circles in England during the time he was a student there; if he had gone to Chicago during the 60s, he would have been a Friedman free-market man.
I do not doubt Nehru's intentions; I am sure that he loved India as much as you and I do and probably more, and he had visions of a great India playing an important role in the world.
His father was not a "munshi" but a well-known lawyer of Allahabad and his grandfather was a darogha in Delhi. He was swayed by the Fabian Socialist philosophy which was quite fashionable in the intellectual circles in England during the time he was a student there; if he had gone to Chicago during the 60s, he would have been a Friedman free-market man.
#49 Posted by tahmed32 on September 2, 2008 5:21:36 am
quin #39 You wrote: Whatever mess they created for themseleve and for others will be hard to fix for the new adminstration. And I don't think this assertion is absurd.
Agreed that this is not absurd. Although it is, as I think you will agree if we discussed this further, still quite simplistic.
But this is not the assertion I had said was absurd. The assertions I had said were absurd as noted in #35, and they were different from the above because they implied that the US was a basket case of some kind, incapable of correcting its mistakes while wreaking havoc on the world. In fact the opposite is true - more than perhaps any nation on earth, the US has demonstrated the ability to move forward and steadily improve itself, to correct mistakes made by the US. And far from wreaking havoc on the world, the US has in fact provided the leadership in fighting off those who sought to rule the world or to force their half-baked ideologies on the rest ofthe world - the Japanese and Germans in WWII, the Soviets in the Cold War, and the islamic nuts of today.
Agreed that this is not absurd. Although it is, as I think you will agree if we discussed this further, still quite simplistic.
But this is not the assertion I had said was absurd. The assertions I had said were absurd as noted in #35, and they were different from the above because they implied that the US was a basket case of some kind, incapable of correcting its mistakes while wreaking havoc on the world. In fact the opposite is true - more than perhaps any nation on earth, the US has demonstrated the ability to move forward and steadily improve itself, to correct mistakes made by the US. And far from wreaking havoc on the world, the US has in fact provided the leadership in fighting off those who sought to rule the world or to force their half-baked ideologies on the rest ofthe world - the Japanese and Germans in WWII, the Soviets in the Cold War, and the islamic nuts of today.
#48 Posted by pinku on September 2, 2008 3:30:56 am
ke ho rio hai bhai???
nehru ka bhi langot khol diya??
dhoti sambhal ke... thara ke bigada hai in logon ne??
arre thode kapde un Arab logon ke bhi ootar lo, sala garmi main mar rahe hain labaadde pahan-pahan ke... khud saal bhar nahin nahate aur India/Pakistan ke logon ko daily khoon se nahalane main lage hain..
#47 Posted by majumdar on September 2, 2008 2:49:09 am
Nkg moshai,
Nehru was born scoundrel and pure low life.
Nehru got the free ground due to dirty politics of Gandhi
Surprise, surprise, we agree.
Kaka,
Khan who in turn accorded unmerited disrespect towards Shastri during Tashkent summits.
The real reason for Ayub showing disrespect to LBS has been documented very well by Ahmed madani sahib. Ayub was a tall meat eater who towered over the dimunitive veggie LBS.
FM Romair,
Re: JLN's two blunders
he dıd not agree to the cabınet mıssıon plan....whıch would have resulted ın a quebec lıke canada ın south asıa....
It would have created a Yugoslavia or Rwanda with a billion plus people. Whoever sabotaged CMP-46 did a great service to the sub-continent.
and he created the kashmır problem
No, not he alone. MAJ (pbuh) was as much an accomplice in this. Very simply, the Kashmir dispute would have been unnecessary had he accepted the principle that the Princely States fate would be decided by the religion of the population. India in 1947 would have happily traded J&K for Hyderabad but Jinnah sahib for his eagerness on getting his hands on Hyd and possibly the Rajputana provinces refused a compromise and forced Pak into an unequal war.
(Amin sahib agrees incidentally on this)
Regards
Nehru was born scoundrel and pure low life.
Nehru got the free ground due to dirty politics of Gandhi
Surprise, surprise, we agree.
Kaka,
Khan who in turn accorded unmerited disrespect towards Shastri during Tashkent summits.
The real reason for Ayub showing disrespect to LBS has been documented very well by Ahmed madani sahib. Ayub was a tall meat eater who towered over the dimunitive veggie LBS.
FM Romair,
Re: JLN's two blunders
he dıd not agree to the cabınet mıssıon plan....whıch would have resulted ın a quebec lıke canada ın south asıa....
It would have created a Yugoslavia or Rwanda with a billion plus people. Whoever sabotaged CMP-46 did a great service to the sub-continent.
and he created the kashmır problem
No, not he alone. MAJ (pbuh) was as much an accomplice in this. Very simply, the Kashmir dispute would have been unnecessary had he accepted the principle that the Princely States fate would be decided by the religion of the population. India in 1947 would have happily traded J&K for Hyderabad but Jinnah sahib for his eagerness on getting his hands on Hyd and possibly the Rajputana provinces refused a compromise and forced Pak into an unequal war.
(Amin sahib agrees incidentally on this)
Regards
#46 Posted by satya100 on September 2, 2008 12:05:12 am
Dost,
Are you paid to write by agencies so that Baki Jihadis drop their AK 47s and grab nearest key board. Retired BA (Hon) are good at shakespearian "wordy" G-giri. Just read first few lines of your article.
Charismatic leader are Star-Dusty or Film-Fairy media creation. Obama almost planned his rise after his community developmental work by cultivating friendships with high-ups in both parties. He is a very good political animal with vision abilities not too better than Bobby Jindal. The biggest difference is that he DID work at grass-root. None of your other charismatic leaders did the same. He is also a good organizer. Bobby Jindals are merely opportunists who might even sell their mothers to rise up. Most our leaders such as Dracula and Chikna Nehrus are Anglo nurtured and media propped leaders.
==========
CHICAGO - An unlikely visitor came calling one day in 1986 at the offices of the tony Chicago conservation group Friends of the Parks: a gangly, boyish community organizer from the rough-and-tumble far South Side named Barack Obama.
Dressed in a black leather bomber jacket, he made his pitch softly and earnestly to the group's community planner. Parents in the blighted, minority neighborhoods where he worked were desperate for safe, inviting play areas for their kids, but they lacked clout. Friends of the Parks had clout but sought ways to increase its efforts for minorities.
Together, Obama argued, the two groups could persuade Chicago's recalcitrant parks district to improve green areas on the far South Side, which had been devastated by steel-plant closings.
The meeting was scheduled to last 30 minutes but stretched to two hours, recalls Johnny Owens, the community planner. "He had an air of authority and a presence that made you want to listen," Owens said.
It was the first step in an informal partnership between Obama's constituents and Friends of the Parks that led to renovations and increased security in a handful of far South Side parks and playgrounds.
Ensuring that swings have seats and sandboxes are free of glass might not seem requisite skills for a man who could be president of the United States. But associates say Obama's approach to the unglamorous task illustrates his style as a community organizer - an experience he cites as "the best education I ever had," qualifying him to unite a racially and socially fractured nation and "create change from the bottom up."
"Barack realized that to get things done, you need to mobilize people in a collaborative way," said Gerald Kellman, the Chicago community organizer who hired Obama to work in the far South Side in 1985.
"He was a bridge-builder," recalled Friends of the Parks president Erma Tranter.
A tour of Obama's far South Side haunts and interviews with past associates paint a somewhat more complex picture.
A few critics claim Obama, now 46, exaggerates his accomplishments, particularly in spearheading asbestos cleanup at a low-income housing project. He omits from his account of that fight a longtime community activist who many people say played a significant role.
And for all his emphasis on the value of grassroots organizing, Obama eventually decided he also needed a law degree to enact lasting change, attending Harvard University. Many associates also view his seven years in the marbled halls of the Illinois State Senate and three years in the U.S. Senate to be as formative as his three years in far South Side trenches.
Further blurring the picture are his descriptions of community organizing in his youthful memoir, "Dreams From My Father," in which he admits he disguises names, creates composite characters, switches some chronologies and uses "approximations" of dialogue.
But what is clear is that Obama got a tough lesson in confronting entrenched political interests - one he relentlessly uses in trying to cast Hillary Rodham Clinton, his rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, as the establishment candidate.
"While I was working on those streets, watching those folks see their jobs shipped overseas, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on the board at Wal-Mart," Obama told Clinton in a debate in January. "I was fighting these fights."
What is also clear is that by the time he left for Harvard in 1988, he already had created a buzz.
"Even back then people were talking about how one day he could be president," said Michael Evans, associate director of the Developing Communities Project, the nonprofit organizing group Obama led here. Evans, who joined the DCP two years after Obama left the group, said he didn't initially understand the excitement over "this skinny young dude" whose nickname was "Baby Face." Then Obama invited him to lunch during a visit to Chicago from law school. By the time the lunch ended, Evans said, "I had decided the sky was his limit."
Obama laughed off a shot at the White House, saying he was contemplating a run for mayor, Evans said.
In "Dreams From My Father," Obama writes that his only goal was "organizing black folks at the grass roots for change" when he took the $1,000-a-month job at the DCP. He was 23 and the only paid staffer.
"He was very idealistic - so idealistic that it was a problem initially," recalled Kellman, who hired Obama during their first in-person interview, at a Lexington Avenue diner in Manhattan. For example, Obama was often surprised that local politicians or pastors would come after him if his ideas threatened their vested interests, Kellman said.
Among other insults, detractors branded Obama as "an Ivy League elitist" and "a pawn of the Jews and Catholics," Kellman said. Many early DCP supervisors were Jewish or Catholic but the group soon drew black, evangelical pastors as well.
Learned skills that would help later
By the time he left Chicago, Obama was much more pragmatic, Kellman said. And he had picked up several influential contacts, including the outspoken pastor of the Afrocentric congregation he joined, the Trinity United Church of Christ. He also picked up the organizing skills that have made his grassroots campaign operations the strongest of any presidential hopeful.
The son of a Kenyan father and a Kansan mother, Obama was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia and "struck me as incredibly comfortable with diversity," Kellman recalled. His unusual background, he said, also made him "used to being an outsider," an asset on the far South Side, where black, Latino and white communities were reeling from plant layoffs and government neglect.
Not all of Obama's associates agreed. "A good community organizer never feels like an outsider in part because you want people to trust you and to bring them in," said Robert Ginsburg, an environmental activist who worked on the South Side during Obama's years at the DCP.
Obama's task was to help far South Side residents press for improvements ranging from pothole repair to job training. Working out of a two-room office of a Roman Catholic church in the Roseland neighborhood, the neophyte went door-to-door, seeking to make 25 new contacts a week as he heard community concerns.
"Ninety percent of the people in the U.S. would be terrified to walk the streets that Barack Obama walked," said Greg Galluzzo, whose Gamaliel Foundation served as a Chicago umbrella organization for groups including DCP.
The cigarette-smoking, basketball-playing Obama, who favored spinach salads over burgers, looked so young and skinny that older women made it a cause to feed him. He wore his hair in a short Afro and dressed simply in button-down shirts and slacks.
He worked so hard that friends joke they had to coax him out to parties. Despite his seriousness, friends say he was a sought-after bachelor with a quick sense of humor.
Obama shared a one-bedroom apartment with his gray cat, Max, in Hyde Park-Kenwood - the racially and economically diverse University of Chicago neighborhood where he lives today in an elegant Georgian revival house with his wife, Michelle, and their two daughters. Back then he owned little more than a bed, a table and crates stacked with fiction and social science books.
Martin Luther King Jr. his hero
One of his favorite tomes was "Parting the Waters," a study of civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. At Kellman's suggestion, he also read "The Power Broker," Robert Caro's portrayal of New York master-builder Robert Moses as a ruthless visionary.
If Moses provided a cautionary tale in unchecked power, King was Obama's hero. The young South Side worker's mantra, then as now, was that "ordinary people can do extraordinary things."
Fans say he helped them do just that.
"He did not do our work for us, he taught us how to do it," said Loretta Augustine-Herron, a far South Side schoolteacher who worked with Obama. "We would come away knowing we could accomplish something."
Obama trained his pupils almost obsessively and watched them like a den mother when they met with local officials. If they became rowdy, he would glide over to sit among them as a signal to quiet down.
"Barack would tell us, 'Don't get angry. It will just stray your focus,'" Augustine-Herron said. When frustrated, she said, he would put his head down and shake it before saying, "Come on, people, this is serious."
Obama earned a reputation for being civil during confrontations with authorities, according to Illinois state Sen. Emil Jones Jr. He met Obama when the community organizer was leading about 30 picketers to protest soaring high-school dropout rates. The rally took place near Jones' office and he invited the group in.
"I was used to different groups coming in to state there was a problem. What impressed me about Barack was that he also had a list of recommended solutions," Jones recalled.
Their discussion led to DCP obtaining public funds for South Side at-risk high school students.
Jack Wuest, executive director of Chicago's Alternative Schools Network, marveled at Obama's ability to obtain the grant. "There were a lot of groups trying to get that money," he said.
Old ally assisted current campaign
Obama got more than the money. Jones, now president of the Illinois State Senate, helped launch Obama's political career. More recently, he rounded up 28 of the legislature's 37 Democrats to campaign for his protege in Ohio, which along with Texas holds a Democratic primary Tuesday.
Yet some critics claim one of the causes Obama promoted best during his organizing years was his own. The most cited case is his role in a campaign that forced authorities to remove the carcinogen asbestos from a problem-plagued public housing project. The complex of decrepit, two-story row houses, called Altgeld Gardens, was built for black World War II veterans and ringed by toxic waste sites and one of the nation's biggest landfills.
In his book, Obama implies he helped discover the asbestos and played a leading role in its removal, starting with a bus trip he organized for a group of tenants to confront city authorities on the issue. "I changed as a result of that bus trip, in a fundamental way," he writes. " ... That bus ride kept me going, I think. Maybe it still does."
Obama does not mention a recognized Altgeld Gardens activist who also had been investigating asbestos there.
In an office with a leaky ceiling and walls decorated with photos of her meetings with former Presidents Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush, the activist, Hazel Johnson, 73, said she had discovered the asbestos long before Obama latched onto the issue. Obama, she insisted, was taking undue credit "to make himself look good."
"I liked Obama and I still like him, but I ain't gonna lie for him," she said.
Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.), who at that time was a Chicago alderman, was quoted last year as saying he was "offended" that anyone would detail the asbestos controversy without mentioning Johnson.
Rush, a former Obama rival who now endorses him, declined interview requests. In a statement, he said he didn't want to waste time "looking in the rear-view mirror" and was "satisfied" with Obama's account of why Johnson was not in his book. He did not retract his previous statement.
Obama also declined interview requests. His staff says the book is a personal account and not a history book. Suggestions that Obama was trying to take sole credit for asbestos removal are "false" and "misleading," spokesman Tommy Vietor said.
Several community organizers and Altgeld Gardens tenants confirmed Johnson was working on asbestos but said Obama organized residents to act. "He got people to vote with their feet" on the issue, organizer Madeleine Talbot said. At the time, Talbot worked at the social action group ACORN and initially considered Obama a competitor. But she became so impressed with his work that she invited him to help train her staff.
At the peak of the asbestos controversy, Obama worked on it "10 to 12 hours a day," said community organizer Linda Randle, who helped him on the issue.
Impact on Latinos and whites
In rallies, Obama often says he helped prevent far South Side blacks, Latinos and whites from turning on each other after they lost their jobs. Many residents and community organizers say his work primarily involved African-Americans. But DCP projects such as renovating parks did benefit Latinos and whites as well.
Moreover, Obama held "weekly brainstorming sessions" with his Latino counterparts and worked closely with them on several important projects, said Phil Mullins, the head of UNO, a social action group in Chicago that represents Mexican-Americans. One was a job-training program. Another was a successful campaign to stop a backroom deal between a waste management company and local leaders to expand a landfill into wetlands surrounding southeast residential areas.
Obama supporters say he helped plan actions including a surprise visit by a group of whites, blacks and Latinos to a room above a bank where waste management officials were meeting with a local official to discuss the landfill expansion. The group surrounded the meeting table while one activist made a statement chiding local officials for making deals behind closed doors. Then the protesters filed out.
"We were trying very hard to connect neighborhoods and he was part of that," Latina organizer Mary Gonzales said.
Soon after the landfill protests, Obama left for Harvard. But he took steps to keep his group going, hiring away his ally Owens from Friends of the Parks to groom as his replacement and returning regularly to conduct training workshops.
"Barack didn't just look back, he reached back," said Augustine-Herron.
Not all of Obama's far South Side achievements endured. Unemployment and despair still plague Altgeld Gardens. The swings work in Palmer Park, a Roseland park he helped renovate, but drug dealers and thugs have reclaimed much of it as their own.
The Obama legend proved more resilient. Owens, among others, marvels at how larger-than-life his friend has grown.
Learning that Obama would speak at Chicago State University shortly before he announced his bid for the presidency last year, "I went just hoping to say hello and shake his hand," Owens recalled. "Instead of just shaking my hand he pulled me toward him and hugged me."
For a couple of minutes, Owens said, Obama locked his gaze on him and the two spoke as if they were alone. Then the crowd swelled around Obama like a sea and pulled him away.
Are you paid to write by agencies so that Baki Jihadis drop their AK 47s and grab nearest key board. Retired BA (Hon) are good at shakespearian "wordy" G-giri. Just read first few lines of your article.
Charismatic leader are Star-Dusty or Film-Fairy media creation. Obama almost planned his rise after his community developmental work by cultivating friendships with high-ups in both parties. He is a very good political animal with vision abilities not too better than Bobby Jindal. The biggest difference is that he DID work at grass-root. None of your other charismatic leaders did the same. He is also a good organizer. Bobby Jindals are merely opportunists who might even sell their mothers to rise up. Most our leaders such as Dracula and Chikna Nehrus are Anglo nurtured and media propped leaders.
==========
CHICAGO - An unlikely visitor came calling one day in 1986 at the offices of the tony Chicago conservation group Friends of the Parks: a gangly, boyish community organizer from the rough-and-tumble far South Side named Barack Obama.
Dressed in a black leather bomber jacket, he made his pitch softly and earnestly to the group's community planner. Parents in the blighted, minority neighborhoods where he worked were desperate for safe, inviting play areas for their kids, but they lacked clout. Friends of the Parks had clout but sought ways to increase its efforts for minorities.
Together, Obama argued, the two groups could persuade Chicago's recalcitrant parks district to improve green areas on the far South Side, which had been devastated by steel-plant closings.
The meeting was scheduled to last 30 minutes but stretched to two hours, recalls Johnny Owens, the community planner. "He had an air of authority and a presence that made you want to listen," Owens said.
It was the first step in an informal partnership between Obama's constituents and Friends of the Parks that led to renovations and increased security in a handful of far South Side parks and playgrounds.
Ensuring that swings have seats and sandboxes are free of glass might not seem requisite skills for a man who could be president of the United States. But associates say Obama's approach to the unglamorous task illustrates his style as a community organizer - an experience he cites as "the best education I ever had," qualifying him to unite a racially and socially fractured nation and "create change from the bottom up."
"Barack realized that to get things done, you need to mobilize people in a collaborative way," said Gerald Kellman, the Chicago community organizer who hired Obama to work in the far South Side in 1985.
"He was a bridge-builder," recalled Friends of the Parks president Erma Tranter.
A tour of Obama's far South Side haunts and interviews with past associates paint a somewhat more complex picture.
A few critics claim Obama, now 46, exaggerates his accomplishments, particularly in spearheading asbestos cleanup at a low-income housing project. He omits from his account of that fight a longtime community activist who many people say played a significant role.
And for all his emphasis on the value of grassroots organizing, Obama eventually decided he also needed a law degree to enact lasting change, attending Harvard University. Many associates also view his seven years in the marbled halls of the Illinois State Senate and three years in the U.S. Senate to be as formative as his three years in far South Side trenches.
Further blurring the picture are his descriptions of community organizing in his youthful memoir, "Dreams From My Father," in which he admits he disguises names, creates composite characters, switches some chronologies and uses "approximations" of dialogue.
But what is clear is that Obama got a tough lesson in confronting entrenched political interests - one he relentlessly uses in trying to cast Hillary Rodham Clinton, his rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, as the establishment candidate.
"While I was working on those streets, watching those folks see their jobs shipped overseas, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on the board at Wal-Mart," Obama told Clinton in a debate in January. "I was fighting these fights."
What is also clear is that by the time he left for Harvard in 1988, he already had created a buzz.
"Even back then people were talking about how one day he could be president," said Michael Evans, associate director of the Developing Communities Project, the nonprofit organizing group Obama led here. Evans, who joined the DCP two years after Obama left the group, said he didn't initially understand the excitement over "this skinny young dude" whose nickname was "Baby Face." Then Obama invited him to lunch during a visit to Chicago from law school. By the time the lunch ended, Evans said, "I had decided the sky was his limit."
Obama laughed off a shot at the White House, saying he was contemplating a run for mayor, Evans said.
In "Dreams From My Father," Obama writes that his only goal was "organizing black folks at the grass roots for change" when he took the $1,000-a-month job at the DCP. He was 23 and the only paid staffer.
"He was very idealistic - so idealistic that it was a problem initially," recalled Kellman, who hired Obama during their first in-person interview, at a Lexington Avenue diner in Manhattan. For example, Obama was often surprised that local politicians or pastors would come after him if his ideas threatened their vested interests, Kellman said.
Among other insults, detractors branded Obama as "an Ivy League elitist" and "a pawn of the Jews and Catholics," Kellman said. Many early DCP supervisors were Jewish or Catholic but the group soon drew black, evangelical pastors as well.
Learned skills that would help later
By the time he left Chicago, Obama was much more pragmatic, Kellman said. And he had picked up several influential contacts, including the outspoken pastor of the Afrocentric congregation he joined, the Trinity United Church of Christ. He also picked up the organizing skills that have made his grassroots campaign operations the strongest of any presidential hopeful.
The son of a Kenyan father and a Kansan mother, Obama was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia and "struck me as incredibly comfortable with diversity," Kellman recalled. His unusual background, he said, also made him "used to being an outsider," an asset on the far South Side, where black, Latino and white communities were reeling from plant layoffs and government neglect.
Not all of Obama's associates agreed. "A good community organizer never feels like an outsider in part because you want people to trust you and to bring them in," said Robert Ginsburg, an environmental activist who worked on the South Side during Obama's years at the DCP.
Obama's task was to help far South Side residents press for improvements ranging from pothole repair to job training. Working out of a two-room office of a Roman Catholic church in the Roseland neighborhood, the neophyte went door-to-door, seeking to make 25 new contacts a week as he heard community concerns.
"Ninety percent of the people in the U.S. would be terrified to walk the streets that Barack Obama walked," said Greg Galluzzo, whose Gamaliel Foundation served as a Chicago umbrella organization for groups including DCP.
The cigarette-smoking, basketball-playing Obama, who favored spinach salads over burgers, looked so young and skinny that older women made it a cause to feed him. He wore his hair in a short Afro and dressed simply in button-down shirts and slacks.
He worked so hard that friends joke they had to coax him out to parties. Despite his seriousness, friends say he was a sought-after bachelor with a quick sense of humor.
Obama shared a one-bedroom apartment with his gray cat, Max, in Hyde Park-Kenwood - the racially and economically diverse University of Chicago neighborhood where he lives today in an elegant Georgian revival house with his wife, Michelle, and their two daughters. Back then he owned little more than a bed, a table and crates stacked with fiction and social science books.
Martin Luther King Jr. his hero
One of his favorite tomes was "Parting the Waters," a study of civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. At Kellman's suggestion, he also read "The Power Broker," Robert Caro's portrayal of New York master-builder Robert Moses as a ruthless visionary.
If Moses provided a cautionary tale in unchecked power, King was Obama's hero. The young South Side worker's mantra, then as now, was that "ordinary people can do extraordinary things."
Fans say he helped them do just that.
"He did not do our work for us, he taught us how to do it," said Loretta Augustine-Herron, a far South Side schoolteacher who worked with Obama. "We would come away knowing we could accomplish something."
Obama trained his pupils almost obsessively and watched them like a den mother when they met with local officials. If they became rowdy, he would glide over to sit among them as a signal to quiet down.
"Barack would tell us, 'Don't get angry. It will just stray your focus,'" Augustine-Herron said. When frustrated, she said, he would put his head down and shake it before saying, "Come on, people, this is serious."
Obama earned a reputation for being civil during confrontations with authorities, according to Illinois state Sen. Emil Jones Jr. He met Obama when the community organizer was leading about 30 picketers to protest soaring high-school dropout rates. The rally took place near Jones' office and he invited the group in.
"I was used to different groups coming in to state there was a problem. What impressed me about Barack was that he also had a list of recommended solutions," Jones recalled.
Their discussion led to DCP obtaining public funds for South Side at-risk high school students.
Jack Wuest, executive director of Chicago's Alternative Schools Network, marveled at Obama's ability to obtain the grant. "There were a lot of groups trying to get that money," he said.
Old ally assisted current campaign
Obama got more than the money. Jones, now president of the Illinois State Senate, helped launch Obama's political career. More recently, he rounded up 28 of the legislature's 37 Democrats to campaign for his protege in Ohio, which along with Texas holds a Democratic primary Tuesday.
Yet some critics claim one of the causes Obama promoted best during his organizing years was his own. The most cited case is his role in a campaign that forced authorities to remove the carcinogen asbestos from a problem-plagued public housing project. The complex of decrepit, two-story row houses, called Altgeld Gardens, was built for black World War II veterans and ringed by toxic waste sites and one of the nation's biggest landfills.
In his book, Obama implies he helped discover the asbestos and played a leading role in its removal, starting with a bus trip he organized for a group of tenants to confront city authorities on the issue. "I changed as a result of that bus trip, in a fundamental way," he writes. " ... That bus ride kept me going, I think. Maybe it still does."
Obama does not mention a recognized Altgeld Gardens activist who also had been investigating asbestos there.
In an office with a leaky ceiling and walls decorated with photos of her meetings with former Presidents Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush, the activist, Hazel Johnson, 73, said she had discovered the asbestos long before Obama latched onto the issue. Obama, she insisted, was taking undue credit "to make himself look good."
"I liked Obama and I still like him, but I ain't gonna lie for him," she said.
Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.), who at that time was a Chicago alderman, was quoted last year as saying he was "offended" that anyone would detail the asbestos controversy without mentioning Johnson.
Rush, a former Obama rival who now endorses him, declined interview requests. In a statement, he said he didn't want to waste time "looking in the rear-view mirror" and was "satisfied" with Obama's account of why Johnson was not in his book. He did not retract his previous statement.
Obama also declined interview requests. His staff says the book is a personal account and not a history book. Suggestions that Obama was trying to take sole credit for asbestos removal are "false" and "misleading," spokesman Tommy Vietor said.
Several community organizers and Altgeld Gardens tenants confirmed Johnson was working on asbestos but said Obama organized residents to act. "He got people to vote with their feet" on the issue, organizer Madeleine Talbot said. At the time, Talbot worked at the social action group ACORN and initially considered Obama a competitor. But she became so impressed with his work that she invited him to help train her staff.
At the peak of the asbestos controversy, Obama worked on it "10 to 12 hours a day," said community organizer Linda Randle, who helped him on the issue.
Impact on Latinos and whites
In rallies, Obama often says he helped prevent far South Side blacks, Latinos and whites from turning on each other after they lost their jobs. Many residents and community organizers say his work primarily involved African-Americans. But DCP projects such as renovating parks did benefit Latinos and whites as well.
Moreover, Obama held "weekly brainstorming sessions" with his Latino counterparts and worked closely with them on several important projects, said Phil Mullins, the head of UNO, a social action group in Chicago that represents Mexican-Americans. One was a job-training program. Another was a successful campaign to stop a backroom deal between a waste management company and local leaders to expand a landfill into wetlands surrounding southeast residential areas.
Obama supporters say he helped plan actions including a surprise visit by a group of whites, blacks and Latinos to a room above a bank where waste management officials were meeting with a local official to discuss the landfill expansion. The group surrounded the meeting table while one activist made a statement chiding local officials for making deals behind closed doors. Then the protesters filed out.
"We were trying very hard to connect neighborhoods and he was part of that," Latina organizer Mary Gonzales said.
Soon after the landfill protests, Obama left for Harvard. But he took steps to keep his group going, hiring away his ally Owens from Friends of the Parks to groom as his replacement and returning regularly to conduct training workshops.
"Barack didn't just look back, he reached back," said Augustine-Herron.
Not all of Obama's far South Side achievements endured. Unemployment and despair still plague Altgeld Gardens. The swings work in Palmer Park, a Roseland park he helped renovate, but drug dealers and thugs have reclaimed much of it as their own.
The Obama legend proved more resilient. Owens, among others, marvels at how larger-than-life his friend has grown.
Learning that Obama would speak at Chicago State University shortly before he announced his bid for the presidency last year, "I went just hoping to say hello and shake his hand," Owens recalled. "Instead of just shaking my hand he pulled me toward him and hugged me."
For a couple of minutes, Owens said, Obama locked his gaze on him and the two spoke as if they were alone. Then the crowd swelled around Obama like a sea and pulled him away.
#44 Posted by hamzaad on September 1, 2008 10:44:02 pm
SR,
kaka doesn't know what your training is in, but your inflection of Obama's first name as 'Burraq' belies some 'insider understandng' that you are posing to have. It would be advisable to explain why you are 'pHudak-ing' around with that spelling. That is if you haven't already done so.
As a matter of plain speaking, Burraq would be the intense form of 'baraq' (jolt) and Barraak would be the intense form of 'barak' (blessing). Please advise as to what the helll is on your mind..
kaka doesn't know what your training is in, but your inflection of Obama's first name as 'Burraq' belies some 'insider understandng' that you are posing to have. It would be advisable to explain why you are 'pHudak-ing' around with that spelling. That is if you haven't already done so.
As a matter of plain speaking, Burraq would be the intense form of 'baraq' (jolt) and Barraak would be the intense form of 'barak' (blessing). Please advise as to what the helll is on your mind..
#43 Posted by SR on September 1, 2008 9:29:22 pm
Re: # 39 quin re: US "empire" & Obama
Most readers understand what you wanted to say and, I'm sure many agree with the gist of your argument.
The real owners of America are not stupid. They are fuming at the huge global PR disaster that George W has created. They are mad because they didn't expect him to be such an idiot when they backed him. But he's pissed in their drinking well and they are going to have to do something to undo some of the damage he has wrought. They have, thanks to George W, realised that they can not continue to "dry sodomise" the rest of the world (including the US public)... they realise that from now on they need to use lubrication and use a condom.
Burraq Hussein Osama fits the bill prefectly. He is their lubricated condom.
...SR
Most readers understand what you wanted to say and, I'm sure many agree with the gist of your argument.
The real owners of America are not stupid. They are fuming at the huge global PR disaster that George W has created. They are mad because they didn't expect him to be such an idiot when they backed him. But he's pissed in their drinking well and they are going to have to do something to undo some of the damage he has wrought. They have, thanks to George W, realised that they can not continue to "dry sodomise" the rest of the world (including the US public)... they realise that from now on they need to use lubrication and use a condom.
Burraq Hussein Osama fits the bill prefectly. He is their lubricated condom.
...SR
#42 Posted by nkg on September 1, 2008 8:26:09 pm
41 contd...
The way Islam had proved to be lethal for Pakiland, Nehru and his daughter was far worse for India....
The way Islam had proved to be lethal for Pakiland, Nehru and his daughter was far worse for India....
#41 Posted by nkg on September 1, 2008 8:08:00 pm
DM...
Nice written article. Nehru was born scoundrel and pure low life. His father was clerk to a moslem lawyear. His intention was clear; destroy India and wipe out its rich history, create good name for himself. The situation in USA now and India during 194x is different. Obama will not be able to make himself a destructive, self indulging leader due to the current, well built setup in USA.
Nehru got the free ground due to dirty politics of Gandhi (M K Gandhi). He hade removed most of the prominant leaders from Congress, who used to disagree with Gandhi....
I don't think that USA will be cursed with such a rascal like Nehru...
Nice written article. Nehru was born scoundrel and pure low life. His father was clerk to a moslem lawyear. His intention was clear; destroy India and wipe out its rich history, create good name for himself. The situation in USA now and India during 194x is different. Obama will not be able to make himself a destructive, self indulging leader due to the current, well built setup in USA.
Nehru got the free ground due to dirty politics of Gandhi (M K Gandhi). He hade removed most of the prominant leaders from Congress, who used to disagree with Gandhi....
I don't think that USA will be cursed with such a rascal like Nehru...
#40 Posted by quin on September 1, 2008 6:41:41 pm
Re: # 36, It is a double failure (of expectations, we may say). Thanks for asking, if you wish to discuss this aspect in more detail, we have to do at some other time. I am getting ready for morning's ardous journey.
#39 Posted by quin on September 1, 2008 6:37:21 pm
Re: # 35, I will keep working to improve my linguistic skills, Sir. But my basic argument is that USA's foreign policy has created a mess in the world as well as for USA. I am not saying USA is responsible for everything. However, like every big empire in the history, their policies have the biggest impact. Whatever mess they created for themseleve and for others will be hard to fix for the new adminstration. And I don't think this assertion is absurd.
Regarding popularity contest, we all here 'seems' to be for rather infamy contest, not for popularity contest. I have the right to say where I agree, and where I do not, so what's the big deal.
Regarding popularity contest, we all here 'seems' to be for rather infamy contest, not for popularity contest. I have the right to say where I agree, and where I do not, so what's the big deal.
#38 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 6:13:33 pm
HP:
You are correct in assuming that I have not taken any classes in political science or international affairs; the three leaders that I have discussed, however, are routinely referred to as charismatic leaders in common parlance.
Nehru also seems to satisfy some of the definitions posted by you:
"Charismatic Leadership involves creating a self-image so powerful that people are naturally drawn to you."
This was certainly true of Nehru.
"Conger & Kanungo (1998) describe five behavioral attributes of Charismatic Leaders that indicate a more transformational viewpoint:
Vision and articulation;
Sensitivity to the environment;
Sensitivity to member needs;
Personal risk taking;
Performing unconventional behavior."
Some, if not all, of these characteristics applied to JLN,
"Musser (1987) notes that charismatic leaders seek to instill both commitment to ideological goals and also devotion to themselves."
This was certainly true of Nehru; he influenced a whole generation of Indians to commit to his vision of a socialist, secular, democratic, non-aligned India.
As far as loyalty, it has already went beyond him and passed on to three generations of his descendants.
"Max Weber distinguished three ideal types of political leadership, domination and authority:
charismatic domination (familial and religious),
traditional domination (patriarchs, patrimonial, feudalism) and
legal domination (modern law and state, bureaucracy)."
One could argue that Nehru met almost all of these criteria to a greater or lesser extent.
"Charismatic authority grows out of the personal charm or the strength of an individual personality. It was described by Weber in a lecture as "the authority of the extraordinary and personal gift of grace (charisma)"; he distinguished it from the other forms of authority by stating "Men do not obey him [the charismatic ruler] by virtue of tradition or statute, but because they believe in him."
This almost seems to describe Nehru.
You are correct in assuming that I have not taken any classes in political science or international affairs; the three leaders that I have discussed, however, are routinely referred to as charismatic leaders in common parlance.
Nehru also seems to satisfy some of the definitions posted by you:
"Charismatic Leadership involves creating a self-image so powerful that people are naturally drawn to you."
This was certainly true of Nehru.
"Conger & Kanungo (1998) describe five behavioral attributes of Charismatic Leaders that indicate a more transformational viewpoint:
Vision and articulation;
Sensitivity to the environment;
Sensitivity to member needs;
Personal risk taking;
Performing unconventional behavior."
Some, if not all, of these characteristics applied to JLN,
"Musser (1987) notes that charismatic leaders seek to instill both commitment to ideological goals and also devotion to themselves."
This was certainly true of Nehru; he influenced a whole generation of Indians to commit to his vision of a socialist, secular, democratic, non-aligned India.
As far as loyalty, it has already went beyond him and passed on to three generations of his descendants.
"Max Weber distinguished three ideal types of political leadership, domination and authority:
charismatic domination (familial and religious),
traditional domination (patriarchs, patrimonial, feudalism) and
legal domination (modern law and state, bureaucracy)."
One could argue that Nehru met almost all of these criteria to a greater or lesser extent.
"Charismatic authority grows out of the personal charm or the strength of an individual personality. It was described by Weber in a lecture as "the authority of the extraordinary and personal gift of grace (charisma)"; he distinguished it from the other forms of authority by stating "Men do not obey him [the charismatic ruler] by virtue of tradition or statute, but because they believe in him."
This almost seems to describe Nehru.
#37 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 5:59:31 pm
pinku#29:
"Nehru's best contribution was creation of a political environment that was stable even if messy... "
I don't think that the political situation was too messy during Nehru's time, unless you are referring to the economy.
"Nehru's best contribution was creation of a political environment that was stable even if messy... "
I don't think that the political situation was too messy during Nehru's time, unless you are referring to the economy.
#36 Posted by tahmed32 on September 1, 2008 5:42:25 pm
#31 quin: and you say about your immigration to Canada: "If I am given another life, though I may arrange things differently. We are all wiser in hindsight. "
Is this because Canada failed to live up to your expectations, or because you yourself failed to live up to your expectations?
Is this because Canada failed to live up to your expectations, or because you yourself failed to live up to your expectations?
#35 Posted by tahmed32 on September 1, 2008 5:35:45 pm
quin: This is what you wrote to what you objected to: If he wins, he will regret it in his old age like hell. No fundamental 'change' is possible in the face of realities on the ground. If he tries to make any fundamental change, the hounds will ground him in no time. There's is an evil empire. On the other hand, if he does win, I wish him best. His failures will expose a lot about USA..
This is what you now say you wrote: All I said was the mess which USA has created in the world will be a hell to deal with for any new adiminstration which is not totally committed to those principles from which their messy policies ensued.
Your first statement is long-winded and absurd. Your re-stated view is not as lengthy and still absurd. It is absurd because it gives the impression that if it was not for the US, the rest of the world would be a peaceful place. And it is absurd because it implies that despite the fact that the democratic nations of the world are allied with the US in its just fight against mullah thugs (i.e. cleaning up the mess created and sustained by Pakistan), it is the US that is on the wrong side in this fight.
PS: I am criticizing your views only, you will note. I have no reason to doubt that you are anything but a fine gentleman. Also, please dont look for applause from other posters, even distinguished Nobel Prize winners like Masadi. Neither you nor I are running for popularity contests in chowk - lets just try to stick to the views, like you said and like I am doing.
This is what you now say you wrote: All I said was the mess which USA has created in the world will be a hell to deal with for any new adiminstration which is not totally committed to those principles from which their messy policies ensued.
Your first statement is long-winded and absurd. Your re-stated view is not as lengthy and still absurd. It is absurd because it gives the impression that if it was not for the US, the rest of the world would be a peaceful place. And it is absurd because it implies that despite the fact that the democratic nations of the world are allied with the US in its just fight against mullah thugs (i.e. cleaning up the mess created and sustained by Pakistan), it is the US that is on the wrong side in this fight.
PS: I am criticizing your views only, you will note. I have no reason to doubt that you are anything but a fine gentleman. Also, please dont look for applause from other posters, even distinguished Nobel Prize winners like Masadi. Neither you nor I are running for popularity contests in chowk - lets just try to stick to the views, like you said and like I am doing.
#34 Posted by quin on September 1, 2008 2:35:02 pm
Re: # 27 "Blaming" is not a pasttime, since for those that suffer from the effects of what America does, as it is doing in pakistan, there are life and death consequences"
Well said, Masadi. I just responded about personal attack by tahmed32. Thanks for telling the spade a spade.
Regarding Obama's presidency, I agree what you have said in your next post (#28).
Well said, Masadi. I just responded about personal attack by tahmed32. Thanks for telling the spade a spade.
Regarding Obama's presidency, I agree what you have said in your next post (#28).
#33 Posted by hamzaad on September 1, 2008 2:28:23 pm
HP # 30
You are an idiot. Charisma is not defined by lame writers of dictionaries and quoted by morons half a century later. Charisma is EXPERIENCED by kids (DM) while growing up under the myth building of freedom fighters.
Another witness of Nehru's 'charisma' was Qudrutullah Shahaab who could not understand why Ayub Khan (no slouch himself) gave so much coin to Nehru during negotiations and his conclusion was that Nehru's stature as a pioneer freedom fighter scored heavily on Khan who in turn accorded unmerited disrespect towards Shastri during Tashkent summits.
Josh's account of Nehru was also of polished sophistication coupled with love of culture etc.. something that idiots of haari background cannot appreciate.
You are an idiot. Charisma is not defined by lame writers of dictionaries and quoted by morons half a century later. Charisma is EXPERIENCED by kids (DM) while growing up under the myth building of freedom fighters.
Another witness of Nehru's 'charisma' was Qudrutullah Shahaab who could not understand why Ayub Khan (no slouch himself) gave so much coin to Nehru during negotiations and his conclusion was that Nehru's stature as a pioneer freedom fighter scored heavily on Khan who in turn accorded unmerited disrespect towards Shastri during Tashkent summits.
Josh's account of Nehru was also of polished sophistication coupled with love of culture etc.. something that idiots of haari background cannot appreciate.
#32 Posted by quin on September 1, 2008 2:28:17 pm
Re: # 26 DM, You said that right, "Obama would be more belligerent to "prove" his patriotism"
That is why I am not too excited, though I would love to see a black, a woman, a jew or a muslim or any one from disadvantage groups, contesting the ticket. Rather I pity, in a funny way, Obama will save his face if does not win. But that is my personal opinion and I am not sharp enough in political analysis.
That is why I am not too excited, though I would love to see a black, a woman, a jew or a muslim or any one from disadvantage groups, contesting the ticket. Rather I pity, in a funny way, Obama will save his face if does not win. But that is my personal opinion and I am not sharp enough in political analysis.
#31 Posted by quin on September 1, 2008 2:23:21 pm
Re: # 22 tahmed32, I did not say all of our problems are caused by USA. All I said was the mess which USA has created in the world will be a hell to deal with for any new adiminstration which is not totally committed to those principles from which their messy policies ensued. So the point was that Obama will be facing huge difficulties even it is all a charade - almost all (just being rehtorical).
Anyway, it surpise my why we cannot keep our discussions focused on the issue and not start personal attacks. I am not an illegal immigrant. I am hard working middle class professional who immigrated to Canada only because I could not see opportunities of professional growth in Pakistan. If I am given another life, though I may arrange things differently. We are all wiser in hindsight.
Anyway, it surpise my why we cannot keep our discussions focused on the issue and not start personal attacks. I am not an illegal immigrant. I am hard working middle class professional who immigrated to Canada only because I could not see opportunities of professional growth in Pakistan. If I am given another life, though I may arrange things differently. We are all wiser in hindsight.
#30 Posted by HP on September 1, 2008 1:40:14 pm
Nehru was a charismatic leader and his daughter was charismatic too? What kind of joke is that? I think the author needs to take classes in political science and international affairs to learn about Charismatic leaders. If that is not possible then a little search on the net or even wiki would have helped him learn a few things about Charisma and Charismatic leaders as defined in politics.
Here is some info which I have pulled from the Net in less than two minutes. I will discuss this in details after the author explains what he meant by charisma!
All quotes below are from the net.
Charismatic Leadership involves creating a self-image so powerful that people are naturally drawn to you.
Conger & Kanungo (1998) describe five behavioral attributes of Charismatic Leaders that indicate a more transformational viewpoint:
Vision and articulation;
Sensitivity to the environment;
Sensitivity to member needs;
Personal risk taking;
Performing unconventional behavior.
The Charismatic Leader and the Transformational Leader can have many similarities, in that the Transformational Leader may well be charismatic. Their main difference is in their basic focus. Whereas the Transformational Leader has a basic focus of transforming the organization and, quite possibly, their followers, the Charismatic Leader may not want to change anything.
Musser (1987) notes that charismatic leaders seek to instill both commitment to ideological goals and also devotion to themselves. The extent to which either of these two goals is dominant depends on the underlying motivations and needs of the leader.
Max Weber distinguished three ideal types of political leadership, domination and authority:
charismatic domination (familial and religious),
traditional domination (patriarchs, patrimonial, feudalism) and
legal domination (modern law and state, bureaucracy).
Main article: Charismatic domination
Charismatic authority grows out of the personal charm or the strength of an individual personality. It was described by Weber in a lecture as "the authority of the extraordinary and personal gift of grace (charisma)"; he distinguished it from the other forms of authority by stating "Men do not obey him [the charismatic ruler] by virtue of tradition or statute, but because they believe in him." This form of authority can be seen in populist dictatorships where one individual exerts control by virtue of their personal popularity and following. Many states based on this model do not survive the death or fall from power of their original leader.
•
William Aberhart(Bible Bill for his religious preaching, was a Canadian politician and Social Credit Premier of Alberta between 1935 and 1943.)
Fidel Castro
Bill Clinton
Pim Fortuyn (was a controversial, openly gay, charismatic politician in the Netherlands who formed his own party)
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Founder of Turkey Republic)
Muhammad Ali Jinnah (Founder of Pakistan: The greatest force behind partition of India.)
Mahatma Gandhi (also involved in religion)(?)
Adolph Hitler
Winston Churchill (?)
Saddam Hussein
Gamal Abdel Nasser
Barrack Obama
John F. Kennedy
Rajiv Gandhi( yeah he is from the Nehru family but was no Nehru!)
Ronald Reagan
Lech Wałęsa
Yulia Tymoshenko (PM of Ukraine)
Ayatollah Khomeini
Sukarno (First Indonesian President)
#29 Posted by pinku on September 1, 2008 1:39:46 pm
bulleya gave some remarkable ordering of charisma, decision making and management skills.., He very accurately described the decision making ability of Indian businessmen..
For most of the charismatic people their biggest asset is their communication skill, their fluent and fast paced responses.. Language can be any....
The second characterirtics is their warrior like approach during any conversation, they try to win each conversation quickly and move to next..
What they lack most often is depth of analysis, they start quickly and won't go to great depths while giving their opinion... They can start with any bias and may not even know that they are strongly influenced by any bias..
There is a class of rare people which can be described as anti-charisma people,,, these people ignore almost anything initially and always look for depth in opinions, largely un-affected by the status or credibility of others, these people are often the ones who give hard times to easy life of charismatic people...
Mccain is somewhat like that except that he belongs to republican party which doesn't give him much option to show his uniqueness..
Mccain is sufficiently anti-charismatic to beat a charismatic candidate but his association with republican party doesn't suit him at present..
========
Nehru's best contribution was creation of a political environment that was stable even if messy...
His next best contribution was to popularize India in world politics, he was a very good orator and a good writer as well... and he made India a more or less socialist state..
For most of the charismatic people their biggest asset is their communication skill, their fluent and fast paced responses.. Language can be any....
The second characterirtics is their warrior like approach during any conversation, they try to win each conversation quickly and move to next..
What they lack most often is depth of analysis, they start quickly and won't go to great depths while giving their opinion... They can start with any bias and may not even know that they are strongly influenced by any bias..
There is a class of rare people which can be described as anti-charisma people,,, these people ignore almost anything initially and always look for depth in opinions, largely un-affected by the status or credibility of others, these people are often the ones who give hard times to easy life of charismatic people...
Mccain is somewhat like that except that he belongs to republican party which doesn't give him much option to show his uniqueness..
Mccain is sufficiently anti-charismatic to beat a charismatic candidate but his association with republican party doesn't suit him at present..
========
Nehru's best contribution was creation of a political environment that was stable even if messy...
His next best contribution was to popularize India in world politics, he was a very good orator and a good writer as well... and he made India a more or less socialist state..
#28 Posted by masadi on September 1, 2008 1:27:21 pm
The fact is,
(hello and greetings of peace friends and freindettes, baal? bacha, if you have any?, haal, chaal? isteqbaal?)
that just like the Pakistan Army, the US establishment is going through a legitimacy crisis and need some "shocking" legitimacy management. For the purpose of this they have thrown up a black man, the first, record shattering, history splattering, black president of the USA, who talks the talk of the white man from head to toe! So, those of you pinning your hopes on Obama, let me tell you what I told those jumping for joy in the Feb Pakistan elections, it is a farce, and just like you are being shocked so many months after it where nothing has occurred, (while to me its no shock, it was supposed to be business as usual), don't be shocked when Obama tries to outdo GWB in his militarism across the globe once in office. He is a mere stooge, though of higher standing than the White Man stooge the tahmed specimen we have on chowk,
Have a nice day,
Keep it in view, have some beef stew,join the cleaning crew, conspiracies do not brew, Same bs nothing new!
TNI Masadi
(hello and greetings of peace friends and freindettes, baal? bacha, if you have any?, haal, chaal? isteqbaal?)
that just like the Pakistan Army, the US establishment is going through a legitimacy crisis and need some "shocking" legitimacy management. For the purpose of this they have thrown up a black man, the first, record shattering, history splattering, black president of the USA, who talks the talk of the white man from head to toe! So, those of you pinning your hopes on Obama, let me tell you what I told those jumping for joy in the Feb Pakistan elections, it is a farce, and just like you are being shocked so many months after it where nothing has occurred, (while to me its no shock, it was supposed to be business as usual), don't be shocked when Obama tries to outdo GWB in his militarism across the globe once in office. He is a mere stooge, though of higher standing than the White Man stooge the tahmed specimen we have on chowk,
Have a nice day,
Keep it in view, have some beef stew,join the cleaning crew, conspiracies do not brew, Same bs nothing new!
TNI Masadi
#27 Posted by masadi on September 1, 2008 1:21:27 pm
tahmed writes to quin "blaming america is favorite pasttime of pakistani retired faujis, overweight maulvis, and unemployable "intellectuals". I assume you represent another category - which on is it? the illegal immigrant living in europe?.."
Tahmed sahib, salam and greetings of peace. Haal chaal? Chai pani?
"Blaming" is not a pasttime, since for those that suffer from the effects of what America does, as it is doing in pakistan, there are life and death consequences. The fact that America does not even make an effort to hide its barbarism, like the recent killing of civilians in Afghanistan that was condemned by their man in Kabul himself, and leaves such defending to its third rate peons like you, tells me that its days of hoodwinking the masses are numbered. Instead of a response you decided to attack Quin as an "illegal immigrant"- this tell us all how helpless you are in your current religious practice of white man worship,
Have nice day for the judgment is nigh,
TNI Masadi
Tahmed sahib, salam and greetings of peace. Haal chaal? Chai pani?
"Blaming" is not a pasttime, since for those that suffer from the effects of what America does, as it is doing in pakistan, there are life and death consequences. The fact that America does not even make an effort to hide its barbarism, like the recent killing of civilians in Afghanistan that was condemned by their man in Kabul himself, and leaves such defending to its third rate peons like you, tells me that its days of hoodwinking the masses are numbered. Instead of a response you decided to attack Quin as an "illegal immigrant"- this tell us all how helpless you are in your current religious practice of white man worship,
Have nice day for the judgment is nigh,
TNI Masadi
#26 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 12:49:27 pm
SR/quin:
On present reckoning, I do not see much difference between Obama and McCain on Iraq and Afghanistan, the two seem to be converging, I am afraid however that Obama would be more belligerent to "prove" his patriotism; on social issues, I do not expect Obama to veer too much towards welfare state, although I wouldn't mind if the US citizens have the same kind of access to medicare that the citizens of most civilised countries have.
On present reckoning, I do not see much difference between Obama and McCain on Iraq and Afghanistan, the two seem to be converging, I am afraid however that Obama would be more belligerent to "prove" his patriotism; on social issues, I do not expect Obama to veer too much towards welfare state, although I wouldn't mind if the US citizens have the same kind of access to medicare that the citizens of most civilised countries have.
#25 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 12:41:42 pm
ahmadmadani:
Madani saheb:
Too early to say anything about Rahul Gandhi but early indications are that he might turn out to be like his father.
The Maruti car, including the name, was actually Sanjay Gandhi's project although he died before its complettion. Another of his very successful projects was the Noida satellite township. And if Indira had not ended her Emergency when all active opposition to it had died down, that scoundrel may have solved one of India's greatest obstacles to progress, namely the unrestricted population growth.
Madani saheb:
Too early to say anything about Rahul Gandhi but early indications are that he might turn out to be like his father.
The Maruti car, including the name, was actually Sanjay Gandhi's project although he died before its complettion. Another of his very successful projects was the Noida satellite township. And if Indira had not ended her Emergency when all active opposition to it had died down, that scoundrel may have solved one of India's greatest obstacles to progress, namely the unrestricted population growth.
#24 Posted by tahmed32 on September 1, 2008 12:40:31 pm
#23 dost mittar: "Nehru can only take credit for not destroying them. "
Not destroying something useful is a good way to start.
Not destroying something useful is a good way to start.
#23 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 12:35:35 pm
tahmed#7:
"Nehru who laid the foundation ("western education", stable civilian governments) for India's "tryst with destiny
Western education and civilian govt. were both given to us by the British; Nehru can only take credit for not destroying them.
"Nehru who laid the foundation ("western education", stable civilian governments) for India's "tryst with destiny
Western education and civilian govt. were both given to us by the British; Nehru can only take credit for not destroying them.
#22 Posted by tahmed32 on September 1, 2008 12:13:33 pm
#21 blaming america is favorite pasttime of pakistani retired faujis, overweight maulvis, and unemployable "intellectuals". I assume you represent another category - which on is it? the illegal immigrant living in europe?
#21 Posted by quin on September 1, 2008 11:35:04 am
In the face of the kind of the mess USA has created in the world, it will be great Divine favour to Obama if he won't win. And I pray for that, only because I wish him well. If he wins, he will regret it in his old age like hell. No fundamental 'change' is possible in the face of realities on the ground. If he tries to make any fundamental change, the hounds will ground him in no time. There's is an evil empire. On the other hand, if he does win, I wish him best. His failures will expose a lot about USA.
#20 Posted by SR on September 1, 2008 9:30:39 am
DM ["... I don't want Obama to be president..."]
Mittar ji
A nice historical summation of 'the gaffs committed by chrismatic leaders' ... But I am afraid your wish shall remain unfulfilled.
Burraq Hussein Osama (or Barak Obama, if you prefer to substitute a 'B' in place of an 'S') will be the next president of the USSA. No 'IFs' or 'BUTs' about it. He will take more than 35 states and may end up having a Reagan style landslide. His coat tails might just put the senate over 60/40. In fact on THAT the Republicans ought to be taking their last stand. The fate of McPain is sealed with heart ache, as was that of Bob Dull, Walter NonHale, Mike DueTaxes, at el.
(Just follow the money. Bookmakers are giving very lopsided odds... Osama is the hands down favourite. McPain a looong shot.)
You might think I am an Osama (aka Obama) fan. In fact I dislike both John McPain and Hussein Osama. They are both hustlers. One peddles the 'Warfare State' while the other touts the 'Welfare State'... both kinds of states are an anethema to Liberty and Justice loving, constitution respecting American individualists (my candidate was Ron Paul, who unfortunately never had a realistic chance).
Much in keeping with your examples, I fear that Mr. Osama's administration will be long on rhetoric and short of substance. He may even end up committing monumental blunders. A (would-have-been) McPain administration, on the other hand, might have been lack luster and unremarkable -- though we'll never find out.
No one can know the future, for sure, but this is how the tea leafs read.
...SR
Mittar ji
A nice historical summation of 'the gaffs committed by chrismatic leaders' ... But I am afraid your wish shall remain unfulfilled.
Burraq Hussein Osama (or Barak Obama, if you prefer to substitute a 'B' in place of an 'S') will be the next president of the USSA. No 'IFs' or 'BUTs' about it. He will take more than 35 states and may end up having a Reagan style landslide. His coat tails might just put the senate over 60/40. In fact on THAT the Republicans ought to be taking their last stand. The fate of McPain is sealed with heart ache, as was that of Bob Dull, Walter NonHale, Mike DueTaxes, at el.
(Just follow the money. Bookmakers are giving very lopsided odds... Osama is the hands down favourite. McPain a looong shot.)
You might think I am an Osama (aka Obama) fan. In fact I dislike both John McPain and Hussein Osama. They are both hustlers. One peddles the 'Warfare State' while the other touts the 'Welfare State'... both kinds of states are an anethema to Liberty and Justice loving, constitution respecting American individualists (my candidate was Ron Paul, who unfortunately never had a realistic chance).
Much in keeping with your examples, I fear that Mr. Osama's administration will be long on rhetoric and short of substance. He may even end up committing monumental blunders. A (would-have-been) McPain administration, on the other hand, might have been lack luster and unremarkable -- though we'll never find out.
No one can know the future, for sure, but this is how the tea leafs read.
...SR
#19 Posted by tahmed32 on September 1, 2008 9:27:29 am
Talking about charisma...
Palin’s 17-Year-Old Daughter Is Pregnant
By Katharine Q. Seelye
ST. PAUL — The 17-year-old daughter of Gov. Sarah Palin, John McCain’s running mate, is five months pregnant, Senator McCain’s campaign advisers announced today. ..Groups that oppose abortion rights had been thrilled with Mr. McCain’s selection of Mrs. Palin, the governor of Alaska, as his running mate, partly because of her opposition to abortion. It is not clear how social conservatives will respond to the latest news.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/01/palins-17-year-old-daught er-is-pregnant/?hp
Palin’s 17-Year-Old Daughter Is Pregnant
By Katharine Q. Seelye
ST. PAUL — The 17-year-old daughter of Gov. Sarah Palin, John McCain’s running mate, is five months pregnant, Senator McCain’s campaign advisers announced today. ..Groups that oppose abortion rights had been thrilled with Mr. McCain’s selection of Mrs. Palin, the governor of Alaska, as his running mate, partly because of her opposition to abortion. It is not clear how social conservatives will respond to the latest news.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/01/palins-17-year-old-daught er-is-pregnant/?hp
#18 Posted by ahmedmadani on September 1, 2008 8:53:14 am
Re: # 11 As person having seen this things tell your feeling why indian companies and pakistani companies are failing. Are bothside have same weakness or there are better things and worst things of both country companies.
IT type companies ( agile and fast changing business) need different things than say boring industries ( long life,basic product same) like coal mining,Grinding grais, sugar making etc steelmaking , housebuilding etc ?
China companies are world leaders what makes them better than india company. ( Is chinses race better in artistic and individualistic way or just hard working race ,not bothered too much about "soft and do good things". It appears that that race is physically stronger than( white, dark, brown) any race - look at medals )
IT type companies ( agile and fast changing business) need different things than say boring industries ( long life,basic product same) like coal mining,Grinding grais, sugar making etc steelmaking , housebuilding etc ?
China companies are world leaders what makes them better than india company. ( Is chinses race better in artistic and individualistic way or just hard working race ,not bothered too much about "soft and do good things". It appears that that race is physically stronger than( white, dark, brown) any race - look at medals )
#17 Posted by ahmedmadani on September 1, 2008 8:38:42 am
Re: # 13 He started first modern car company in india with company from japan that will out live everything.
#16 Posted by ahmedmadani on September 1, 2008 8:34:54 am
Re: # 15 Bilawal Z.Bhutto has all qualities suggested by Romair.
How is mr. Rahul Gandhi rated in these depts.
Mrs Soniya Gandhi appears more quitely doing working type. Mr. Zardari wanted to follow mrs Gandhi, he needs to work quitely without making waves ?
Altafbhai has all qualities and his manages party very well except once he made mistake of not contesting in Karachi but then he corrected himself. One person who had know Altafbhai said about his management. He said he does not like his subordinates to over analysis and become paralised. He says do not get in that situation , always make decision and stick to it and if he finds it is mistake he says correct it. Altafbhai generally feels it is better to be in active mode and make mistakes and then correct than paralised. He hates "suspense or pralization due to over analysis."
Mr. Zardai management is little different. He let things slips it appears but he is in full control and has method for his madness and pralysis as that is his planed strategy. It appears mr. Z is setting traps for NS and he may walk in to it. Only time will tell.
How is mr. Rahul Gandhi rated in these depts.
Mrs Soniya Gandhi appears more quitely doing working type. Mr. Zardari wanted to follow mrs Gandhi, he needs to work quitely without making waves ?
Altafbhai has all qualities and his manages party very well except once he made mistake of not contesting in Karachi but then he corrected himself. One person who had know Altafbhai said about his management. He said he does not like his subordinates to over analysis and become paralised. He says do not get in that situation , always make decision and stick to it and if he finds it is mistake he says correct it. Altafbhai generally feels it is better to be in active mode and make mistakes and then correct than paralised. He hates "suspense or pralization due to over analysis."
Mr. Zardai management is little different. He let things slips it appears but he is in full control and has method for his madness and pralysis as that is his planed strategy. It appears mr. Z is setting traps for NS and he may walk in to it. Only time will tell.
#15 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 8:09:19 am
bulleya#10,11:
I largely agree with you (especially about my mediocre writings style).
I was not writing about India/Pak issues but I agree with you regarding the Kashmir issue (I used to have the same viewpoint as you re. cabinet mission plan but thanks to sadna's hard work and research of original documents and correspondence on this issue, I am less sure of that now). On Kashmir, he was totally inconsistent and contradictory; if he believed in a plebiscite, then it should have been held and he should have not used technical loopholes to get out of his commitment.
But if he really wanted Kashmir to be integrated with India, then regardless of the morality issues, he should not have introduced Article 370 which made it impossible to change the demography of Kashmir, which is the only way Kashmir problem could have been permanently resolved in India's favour. Here is an excerpt from Kuldip Nayar's recent column on this issue:
"Soon after Kashmir’s integration with India, then Home Minister Sardar Patel wanted some migrants from Pakistan to be settled in the Valley. Jawaharlal Nehru not only took him to task, but offered apologies to Sheikh Abdullah, then heading the Kashmir Government."
I agree with you that a visionary needs someone to complement his vision with management skills (which to me includes decision-making skills as well); if someone has both skills, it is "sone pe suhaaga".
I largely agree with you (especially about my mediocre writings style).
I was not writing about India/Pak issues but I agree with you regarding the Kashmir issue (I used to have the same viewpoint as you re. cabinet mission plan but thanks to sadna's hard work and research of original documents and correspondence on this issue, I am less sure of that now). On Kashmir, he was totally inconsistent and contradictory; if he believed in a plebiscite, then it should have been held and he should have not used technical loopholes to get out of his commitment.
But if he really wanted Kashmir to be integrated with India, then regardless of the morality issues, he should not have introduced Article 370 which made it impossible to change the demography of Kashmir, which is the only way Kashmir problem could have been permanently resolved in India's favour. Here is an excerpt from Kuldip Nayar's recent column on this issue:
"Soon after Kashmir’s integration with India, then Home Minister Sardar Patel wanted some migrants from Pakistan to be settled in the Valley. Jawaharlal Nehru not only took him to task, but offered apologies to Sheikh Abdullah, then heading the Kashmir Government."
I agree with you that a visionary needs someone to complement his vision with management skills (which to me includes decision-making skills as well); if someone has both skills, it is "sone pe suhaaga".
#14 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 7:52:14 am
tahmed32#7
Obama is proving more and more to be a normal politician. His acceptance speech was quite a barn burner, but it was more like someone trying to rally troops, with standard jibes against his opponent. Instead of a promise of change, I saw it as more of the same.
But as they say in Pindi, "hud-si tey rung kud-si".
Obama is proving more and more to be a normal politician. His acceptance speech was quite a barn burner, but it was more like someone trying to rally troops, with standard jibes against his opponent. Instead of a promise of change, I saw it as more of the same.
But as they say in Pindi, "hud-si tey rung kud-si".
#13 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 7:45:53 am
Sanatani#5:
I do not regard Rajiv Gandhi as a charismatic leader but merely a member of a charismatic dynasty. I think that if he had not started off with a massacre of the sikhs and had managed the bofor affairs well, his legacy would not have been that bad; indeed, he started the process of economic reforms, in particular in the telecommmunications sector; remember, he started using a laptap!
I do not regard Rajiv Gandhi as a charismatic leader but merely a member of a charismatic dynasty. I think that if he had not started off with a massacre of the sikhs and had managed the bofor affairs well, his legacy would not have been that bad; indeed, he started the process of economic reforms, in particular in the telecommmunications sector; remember, he started using a laptap!
#12 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 7:42:13 am
rf786:
Yes, this is the message. As long as we don't get swept off our feet and do not treat them as messiahs who would deliver us to the promised land, it's okay to have someone provide a vision.
Yes, this is the message. As long as we don't get swept off our feet and do not treat them as messiahs who would deliver us to the promised land, it's okay to have someone provide a vision.
#11 Posted by bulleya on September 1, 2008 6:30:36 am
...a thırd qualıty needs to be mentıoned here, along wıth charısma and management skılls - decısıon makıng...
thıs ıs somethıng ı have seen ın ındıan IT executıves...they are, generally, extremely weak ın the charısma area....relatıvely medıocre ın the management area...but extremely good ın the decısıon makıng area...
they are excellent at judgıng deals, judgıng clıents, judgın the market etc...
...to be a good leader, the order of ımportance ın qualıtıes would be - charısma, decısıon makıng, and then management skılls....
...to actually achıeve success, the order of ımportance would be - decısıon makıng skılls, management skılls, and then charısma...
ıf a person can make a correct decısıon on a deal, he/she can hıre charısmatıc people to close the deal, and can hıre people wıth good management skılls to execute the deal to completıon....
however, ıf a person wants to convınce other people that he/she can do a job, whıch he/she has never trıed before, charısma ıs the decıdıng factor....
thıs ıs somethıng ı have seen ın ındıan IT executıves...they are, generally, extremely weak ın the charısma area....relatıvely medıocre ın the management area...but extremely good ın the decısıon makıng area...
they are excellent at judgıng deals, judgıng clıents, judgın the market etc...
...to be a good leader, the order of ımportance ın qualıtıes would be - charısma, decısıon makıng, and then management skılls....
...to actually achıeve success, the order of ımportance would be - decısıon makıng skılls, management skılls, and then charısma...
ıf a person can make a correct decısıon on a deal, he/she can hıre charısmatıc people to close the deal, and can hıre people wıth good management skılls to execute the deal to completıon....
however, ıf a person wants to convınce other people that he/she can do a job, whıch he/she has never trıed before, charısma ıs the decıdıng factor....
#10 Posted by bulleya on September 1, 2008 6:11:03 am
you mıssed out on two of nehru's bıggest blunders....somethıng for whıch hundreds of mıllıons are stıll payıng the prıce...
he dıd not agree to the cabınet mıssıon plan....whıch would have resulted ın a quebec lıke canada ın south asıa....and he created the kashmır problem, by backtrackıng on the obvıous solutıon of a vote, after suggestıng ıt hımself...
had congress been led by gandhı at that tıme, south asıa would have been a much dıfferent place...
your analysıs ıs very ınterestıng (though wrtıng style ıs quıte medıocre, as usual)...ıt ıs obvıously too much of a generalızatıon...
charısma ıs the rarest of qualıtıes, whıch very few humans possess...ıt can neıther be defıned, nor learned...ıt ıs at the heart of leadershıp...though not at the heart of management...
ı have seen thıs ın busıness a lot...charısmatıc ındıvıduals can lead, but they cannot manage on charısma alone...ı thınk thıs ıs the dıfferentıatıng poınt that, perhaps you are hıntıng towards...
the best combınatıon ıs charısma plus management skılls....or at least the abılıty to put the rıght people ın the rıght place...
the best combınatıon of charısma plus management, ın recent tımes, has to be bıll clınton...the worst example of someone wıthout eıther would be george bush...a good example of charısma plus no management skılls would be benazır...
good managers are a dıme a dozen....charısmatıc ındıvıduals are a rarıty...
p.s. ı thınk you may be hugely underestımatıng obama...a black guy, wıth muslım roots, payıng hıs own way through college, and comıng from nowhere to defeat a shoe-ın future presıdent (hıllary) has more than chrısma...
he dıd not agree to the cabınet mıssıon plan....whıch would have resulted ın a quebec lıke canada ın south asıa....and he created the kashmır problem, by backtrackıng on the obvıous solutıon of a vote, after suggestıng ıt hımself...
had congress been led by gandhı at that tıme, south asıa would have been a much dıfferent place...
your analysıs ıs very ınterestıng (though wrtıng style ıs quıte medıocre, as usual)...ıt ıs obvıously too much of a generalızatıon...
charısma ıs the rarest of qualıtıes, whıch very few humans possess...ıt can neıther be defıned, nor learned...ıt ıs at the heart of leadershıp...though not at the heart of management...
ı have seen thıs ın busıness a lot...charısmatıc ındıvıduals can lead, but they cannot manage on charısma alone...ı thınk thıs ıs the dıfferentıatıng poınt that, perhaps you are hıntıng towards...
the best combınatıon ıs charısma plus management skılls....or at least the abılıty to put the rıght people ın the rıght place...
the best combınatıon of charısma plus management, ın recent tımes, has to be bıll clınton...the worst example of someone wıthout eıther would be george bush...a good example of charısma plus no management skılls would be benazır...
good managers are a dıme a dozen....charısmatıc ındıvıduals are a rarıty...
p.s. ı thınk you may be hugely underestımatıng obama...a black guy, wıth muslım roots, payıng hıs own way through college, and comıng from nowhere to defeat a shoe-ın future presıdent (hıllary) has more than chrısma...
#9 Posted by dost_mittar on September 1, 2008 6:05:20 am
chowk staff:
Thank you for publishing the article. There is a screw-up in the first part of the fourth paragraph (by me or by the editor, I can't say). It needs to be unscrambled.
Instead of:
"One of the young men who were mesmerized by Nehru’s charisma was the Junior Senator from Massachusetts, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Kennedy’s candidacy was considered path-breaking in a similar way that Obama’s candidacy is being vwhen he defeated his Republican rival Richard Nixon. And when hiewed now: he was an Irish Roman Catholic in a country which had until then elected only Anglo-Saxon Protestants as Presidents; he was youthful and promised to usher in a brave new world. I was in India when Kennedy won his election for the US Presidency in 1960. We almost danced in the streets e gave his famous “ich bin ein Berliner� speech, we rejoiced as if he had said “Main Hindustani hooN� I came to the United States after his tragic assassination but soon enough to realize that his Presidency had produced a lot of sizzle but very little steak during his short tenure as its incumbent: his legacy can be summed up as (1) sexual peccadilloes which would make Bill Clinton seem like a monk (2) the bungled Bay of Pigs crisis which consolidated Fidel Castro’s hold over Cuba (3) pushing the US into the disastrous Vietnam war, and (4) the Cuban missile crisis when the world survived a world war by a hairbreadth though it is touted as his great success. The real reforms in the United States were brought about by his dull successor, Lyndon Johnson, who introduced dramatic reforms with his War on Poverty and the Affirmative Action Program to provide real opportunities to America’s black community"
It should be:
"One of the young men who were mesmerized by Nehru’s charisma was the Junior Senator from Massachusetts, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Kennedy’s candidacy was considered path-breaking in a similar way that Obama’s candidacy is being viewed now: he was an Irish Roman Catholic in a country which had until then elected only Anglo-Saxon Protestants as Presidents; he was youthful and promised to usher in a brave new world. I was in India when he defeated his Republican rival Richard Nixon. We almost danced in the streets when he gave his famous “ich bin ein Berliner� speech, we rejoiced as if he had said “Main Hindustani hooN�. I came to the United States after his tragic assassination but soon enough to realize that his Presidency had produced a lot of sizzle but very little steak during his short tenure as its incumbent: his legacy can be summed up as (1) sexual peccadilloes which would make Bill Clinton seem like a monk (2) the bungled Bay of Pigs crisis which consolidated Fidel Castro’s hold over Cuba (3) pushing the US into the disastrous Vietnam war, and (4) the Cuban missile crisis when the world survived a world war by a hairbreadth though it is touted as his great success. The real reforms in the United States were brought about by his dull successor, Lyndon Johnson, who introduced dramatic reforms with his War on Poverty and the Affirmative Action Program to provide real opportunities to America’s black community"
Thank you for publishing the article. There is a screw-up in the first part of the fourth paragraph (by me or by the editor, I can't say). It needs to be unscrambled.
Instead of:
"One of the young men who were mesmerized by Nehru’s charisma was the Junior Senator from Massachusetts, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Kennedy’s candidacy was considered path-breaking in a similar way that Obama’s candidacy is being vwhen he defeated his Republican rival Richard Nixon. And when hiewed now: he was an Irish Roman Catholic in a country which had until then elected only Anglo-Saxon Protestants as Presidents; he was youthful and promised to usher in a brave new world. I was in India when Kennedy won his election for the US Presidency in 1960. We almost danced in the streets e gave his famous “ich bin ein Berliner� speech, we rejoiced as if he had said “Main Hindustani hooN� I came to the United States after his tragic assassination but soon enough to realize that his Presidency had produced a lot of sizzle but very little steak during his short tenure as its incumbent: his legacy can be summed up as (1) sexual peccadilloes which would make Bill Clinton seem like a monk (2) the bungled Bay of Pigs crisis which consolidated Fidel Castro’s hold over Cuba (3) pushing the US into the disastrous Vietnam war, and (4) the Cuban missile crisis when the world survived a world war by a hairbreadth though it is touted as his great success. The real reforms in the United States were brought about by his dull successor, Lyndon Johnson, who introduced dramatic reforms with his War on Poverty and the Affirmative Action Program to provide real opportunities to America’s black community"
It should be:
"One of the young men who were mesmerized by Nehru’s charisma was the Junior Senator from Massachusetts, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Kennedy’s candidacy was considered path-breaking in a similar way that Obama’s candidacy is being viewed now: he was an Irish Roman Catholic in a country which had until then elected only Anglo-Saxon Protestants as Presidents; he was youthful and promised to usher in a brave new world. I was in India when he defeated his Republican rival Richard Nixon. We almost danced in the streets when he gave his famous “ich bin ein Berliner� speech, we rejoiced as if he had said “Main Hindustani hooN�. I came to the United States after his tragic assassination but soon enough to realize that his Presidency had produced a lot of sizzle but very little steak during his short tenure as its incumbent: his legacy can be summed up as (1) sexual peccadilloes which would make Bill Clinton seem like a monk (2) the bungled Bay of Pigs crisis which consolidated Fidel Castro’s hold over Cuba (3) pushing the US into the disastrous Vietnam war, and (4) the Cuban missile crisis when the world survived a world war by a hairbreadth though it is touted as his great success. The real reforms in the United States were brought about by his dull successor, Lyndon Johnson, who introduced dramatic reforms with his War on Poverty and the Affirmative Action Program to provide real opportunities to America’s black community"
#8 Posted by rf786 on September 1, 2008 5:41:18 am
Re: # 5
Santani Jee
Longtime not see, its good to hear from you even though it comes with its obvious baggage.
Zulfie was charismatic and for sure did fk the country, but the same cannot be said for BB (a) she was not charismatic and (b) never had the chance to really fk the country.
Zulfie may have fornicated with the truncated Pakistan but is still revered as one of the greatest, compare that to the bakra Zia ul Haq, boring, unpleasent, uncouth character yet he has left this country with a malignancy that refuses to go away.
Charismatic people are remembered for their good and bad deeds whereas the average joe may have screwed the whole system but then again is easily forgettable, no charisma.
Santani Jee
Longtime not see, its good to hear from you even though it comes with its obvious baggage.
Zulfie was charismatic and for sure did fk the country, but the same cannot be said for BB (a) she was not charismatic and (b) never had the chance to really fk the country.
Zulfie may have fornicated with the truncated Pakistan but is still revered as one of the greatest, compare that to the bakra Zia ul Haq, boring, unpleasent, uncouth character yet he has left this country with a malignancy that refuses to go away.
Charismatic people are remembered for their good and bad deeds whereas the average joe may have screwed the whole system but then again is easily forgettable, no charisma.
#7 Posted by tahmed32 on September 1, 2008 5:37:19 am
DM bhai: The secret to being "charismatic" is to give hope of a better future.
Some political leaders provide hope by making empty promises. Examples include ZAB and his empty promise of "roti, kapra or makan", Lenin and his empty promise of a "workers paradise", Nasser and his empty promise of "pan-Arabism", Musharraf and his empty promise of a "return to democracy".
Other political leaders provide hope by making promises they have the intention and the ability to actuall deliver on: Examples include Ataturk who salvaged a viable nation from the "sick man of europe", Jinnah who created Pakistan, Nehru who laid the foundation ("western education", stable civilian governments) for India's "tryst with destiny". If Nawaz Sharif continues down his current path of standing firm on the promise of "democratic politics" and the "rule of law" he may well end up joining the ranks of such truly "charismatic leaders".
Coming to Obama - not only is he making many right promises (improved communication with all nations, more emphasis on education, improved healthcare), they are also realistic ones. More important, these promises define his priorities.
As for McCain, he isnt making any promises other than some pretty stupid ones - staying in Iraq for a 100 years. And now he is trying to pick up some vague kind of "charisma" by picking a youthful woman as his VP.
Some political leaders provide hope by making empty promises. Examples include ZAB and his empty promise of "roti, kapra or makan", Lenin and his empty promise of a "workers paradise", Nasser and his empty promise of "pan-Arabism", Musharraf and his empty promise of a "return to democracy".
Other political leaders provide hope by making promises they have the intention and the ability to actuall deliver on: Examples include Ataturk who salvaged a viable nation from the "sick man of europe", Jinnah who created Pakistan, Nehru who laid the foundation ("western education", stable civilian governments) for India's "tryst with destiny". If Nawaz Sharif continues down his current path of standing firm on the promise of "democratic politics" and the "rule of law" he may well end up joining the ranks of such truly "charismatic leaders".
Coming to Obama - not only is he making many right promises (improved communication with all nations, more emphasis on education, improved healthcare), they are also realistic ones. More important, these promises define his priorities.
As for McCain, he isnt making any promises other than some pretty stupid ones - staying in Iraq for a 100 years. And now he is trying to pick up some vague kind of "charisma" by picking a youthful woman as his VP.
#6 Posted by Sanatani on September 1, 2008 5:31:34 am
No unfortunately Narendra Bhai has made Gandhi Nagar even better than it was.
Sanatani
Sanatani
#5 Posted by Sanatani on September 1, 2008 5:30:22 am
Re: # 2
Yes your charismatic Zulfie and beebie fkd ur country inside out. How that for making the world an interesting place.
Man if this is you level of thinking you r no different from the traitorious scum in India who worship Nehru.
At least no one in your country died starving many in ours did.
DM sahib is right though he forgot to add Rajiv Gandhi another of those charismatic fks who screwed our country inside out.
Santani
Yes your charismatic Zulfie and beebie fkd ur country inside out. How that for making the world an interesting place.
Man if this is you level of thinking you r no different from the traitorious scum in India who worship Nehru.
At least no one in your country died starving many in ours did.
DM sahib is right though he forgot to add Rajiv Gandhi another of those charismatic fks who screwed our country inside out.
Santani
#4 Posted by majumdar on September 1, 2008 5:23:06 am
Sanatani,
Well said and welcome back, sir!. We would need a similar epitaph for the G-man as well. Any suggestions?
Regards
Well said and welcome back, sir!. We would need a similar epitaph for the G-man as well. Any suggestions?
Regards
#3 Posted by Sanatani on September 1, 2008 5:15:23 am
Re: # 1
No the best epitaph to Nehru is Nehru place, a stinking slum and Delhi's worst District center.
Someone should bring out a photo exhibition nehru place a true tribute to nehru.
Sanatani
No the best epitaph to Nehru is Nehru place, a stinking slum and Delhi's worst District center.
Someone should bring out a photo exhibition nehru place a true tribute to nehru.
Sanatani
#2 Posted by rf786 on September 1, 2008 4:38:24 am
DM Sahib
Thoroughly enjoyed your style of writing but with all due respect disagree with your thesis. Had it not been for charismatic people like Kennedy, Nehru this world would have been a dull and dry place with little vision and no passion. World needs more people like these, unfortunately or fortunately human beings are generally herd followers searching for their messiah.
Thoroughly enjoyed your style of writing but with all due respect disagree with your thesis. Had it not been for charismatic people like Kennedy, Nehru this world would have been a dull and dry place with little vision and no passion. World needs more people like these, unfortunately or fortunately human beings are generally herd followers searching for their messiah.
#1 Posted by majumdar on September 1, 2008 2:59:04 am
DM sahib,
After ruling over India as an unchallenged democratic dictator for seventeen years, Nehru left India in shambles when he died
A better epitaph for JLN could not have been written. A well written piece, sir!
Regards
After ruling over India as an unchallenged democratic dictator for seventeen years, Nehru left India in shambles when he died
A better epitaph for JLN could not have been written. A well written piece, sir!
Regards
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