There is no ‘honour’ in killing

Fellows: Please
#116 anil #115 majumdar #114 anil #113 anil #112 majumdar
#111 anil #110 majumdar #109 anil #108 majumdar #107 anil
#106 anil #105 majumdar #104 HP........

Do you have anything to say about honour killings?
Kamath

Majumdar:

You can say that for all countries. There are some people, some infrastructure. I had seen in Erfurt, shortly after the fall of Berlin Wall, the computer manufacturing infrastruture. This was one of their largest companies, believe me, it was worse than Lajpat Rai Market where entrepreneurs crank out 1,000 tape decks a month out of small khokas. That is the difference between entrepreneurship and other form.

Isn't this the point you also are trying to make to Masadi sahib? I have written about it many times. Entrepreneurship shown in Taiwan is not even matched in Korea. Absence of markets, absence of entrepreneurs - what can you do with damaged infrastructure. I have dealt with entrepreneurs all over Europe, the U.S. and East Asia (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan and Korea). I would not put Germans or French anywhere near the U.S. and East Asian entrepreneurs. There is more entrepreneurship in England than Germany.

German industries are quite structured, and entrepreneurs play more limited role. France is almost socialist. Sarkozy may change now.

Anil,

Both Germanies had significant industrial infrastructure, Ruhr in West, the Upper Saxony Region in East. Sure, East Germany had no entrepreneurs and markets but they had people and knowhow no. And with Soviet help they did rebuild, of course with not as much success as West which had superior knowledge, tecnhology, capital and access to markets.

Regards

Majumdar:

Germany was divided and lost substantial industrial infrastructure that was in E. Germany - Erfurt, Leipzig (??), Berlin. During E. Germany days, there were no entreprenurs, or market. Economy was completely reorganized.

I think you might like to investigate a little more.

Re: # 112

Majumdar:

Don't you think that is like saying, army and bureaucracy also has people in place? These cases I mentioned are good ones to read, good management restructuring was done, and lot of purging was done. Also please do not forget that Japan's industrial basis were nuked that means a lot of people too. Similarly Krup example is kind of unique. German corporate structure was also family owned, so many Nazi sympathizing families lost out. Quite a few migrated to Latin America. These were mostly powerful people who migrated to escape prosecution.

Anil,

The Korean name for a conglo is Chaebol.

Of course, my main point was that the basic structure (technology, entrepeneurs, skilled workers and culture) were already in place.

Regards

Majumdar:

I was going to tell you about these two. There are HBS cases that you can read for more.

German industrial infrastructure was not destroyed, and was needed to revive. Krup was put on trial and jailed, and only then released as there was no buyer. Quite akin to it it Baath Party members being brought into civil service in Iraq.

Japanese Zaibatsu has three elements - Manufacturing arm, trading arm and Banking arm. These three together work. Mitsubishi (as I recall now many years after reading the case) was able to reassemble under Keiretsu , where supply chains have cross holdings. Even now Toyota has holdings in its suppliers. T. Boone Pickens tried to break Keiretsu created by Toyota in 80s, did not work and sold his shares.

Mitsubishi Bank provided money to its suppliers, while trading house sold. Americans wanted total reforms in Japan, and did not succeed, much like Krup's case, even in Japan the same thing happened. Mitsubishi's post war history is very fasscinating I would love read it again. Korea was later reconstructed much the same way as Japan. There is a Korean name for Japanese equivalent of Keiretsu. Hyundai, Samsung, LG, Daiwoo, and one more, in all five were created. Entrepreneurial story of Hyundai founder is very interesting. Americans had called for tender to dismantle and remove the bridge over Seoul River. All bidders charged money to dismantle and remove, Hyundai's founding Chairman offered to buy for $1 instead. He used the steel scrap to build his first capital. All five were quite corrupt in the early days.

Anilji,

You might wnat to comment on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp

After Germany's defeat, when Gustav proved incapable of going on trial, the Nuremberg Military Tribunal convicted Alfred as a war criminal in the Krupp Trial for his company's use of slave labor. It sentenced him to 12 years in prison and ordered him to sell 75% of his holdings. In 1951, as the Cold War developed and no buyer came forward, the authorities released him, and in 1953 he resumed control of the firm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi

Also, like many other large Japanese corporations at that time, it made use of slave labor from Allied POWs and the Japanese captured territories, like Korea and China. With poor working conditions, many people died during this period. Mitsubishi participated in Japan's unprecedented economic growth of the 1950s and 1960s.

Regards

Not really cosmetic changes, you would then say cosmetic changes to their Army also. In Japan, the change was very dramatic, Allied forces created special economic zones, and controlled contract awards and projects to weed out fascists. In Germany, Marshall Plan was little more accomodating in reorganizing, Gasellschaft. Old one's were all denied access to capital and contracts.

Many years later, in Keiretsu people started to come back. Memoirs of Geisha depicts this era. I do not know if you read the novel or watched movie.

Bottom line is corporate governance was purged too.

Anilji,

Cosmetic changes, sir. The same Mitusbishis and Suzukis and Siemens and Krupps who dominated Jap and German industry continued after with a makeover.

Regards

Re: # 106

Correction:

In "Pre" was Japan, corporate structure was Zaibatsu.

Majumdar:

Without going into other part of the debate. In post war Japan corporate structure was Zaibatsu that was destroyed by the Allies during the reconstruction. The same was done in Germany Gasellschaft system was destroy too. Complete new corporate governance called Keiretsu was put in place in Japan. Whereas in Germany, Gasellschaft was revamped and reorganized.

This was done to ensure everything was rid of any traces of Nazis and fascism.

The War may have devastated Germany and Japan's factories it did not destroy the corporations, the technology and a good chunk of the skilled manpower which set up these factories in the first place. So the Marshall Plan was working on fertile ground. And in any case USD 10 bn or so was worth a lot more in 1940s than what Pakistan received in the 1990s and 2000s.

Regards

Asadi, your posts are tiring, lack substance and coherence, and downright petty.

Please present some numbers and sources to make your point. Abuses and cusses don't impress me at all.

Here are some facts from Germany and Britain after the war and see the numbers yourself. If you have some shame you will acknowledge that even the Japanese GDP at the end of the war was hinger than Pakistan's current GDP.
Here are GDP.
Allied and Axis GDP
http://www.onwar.com/articles/0302.htm

Marshall Plan aid to Germany was not that large. Cumulative aid from the Marshall Plan and other aid programs totaled only $2 billion through October 1954. Even in 1948 and 1949, when aid was at its peak, Marshall Plan aid was less than 5 percent of German national income. Other countries that received substantial Marshall Plan aid had lower growth than Germany.

Moreover, while Germany was receiving aid, it was also making reparations and restitution payments that were well over $1 billion. Finally, and most important, the Allies charged the Germans DM7.2 billion annually ($2.4 billion) for their costs of occupying Germany. (Of course, these occupation costs also meant that Germany did not need to pay for its own defense.)

Here are some numbers about the British war production of aircrafts only.
http://spitfire-site.com/history/articles/2007/09/british-aircraft-produc tion-1938-1944.htm

The production of fighters, however, was not affected, consuming roughly between 20-30% of the overall industrial effort during the period 1941-1944.

In 1944 alone, British manufactured 26,452 different kind of aircraft including Heavy Bombers 5,507, medium Bombers 2,396, and fighter+ fighter bomber 10,730

I am done with your ridiculous empty revolutionary zeal.

HP writes "looked at that article and your posts there, I guess then you had no such thoughts. You were the most prolific poster on that article.
In fact, I have barely used the word "Islamist" in that article. Jihadi is what they go by. That is how they are known. The theme was that Iraq in 2003 was a revenge for what the arabs supposedly did and that still holds true. there were some other reasons too but that article dealt with a specific side of the conflict."

Salam and greetings of peace my worthy friend. I was indeed prolific then and am prolific now but never did I agree with your assertion of the US war being "revenge", the US is not a gamienshaft community type society to undertake revenge punishment. Its punishment is restitutive, as signifies societies with a high division of labor, a gesellschaft, it is for the purpose of restitution, bringing the rogue back into the system. That was the purpose behind the US war on Iraq. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because I thought that you knowing the excesses of the system that goes hand in hand with its foreign investment would give up on its BS but you have started pushing it full force for some reason. That is quite intolerable.

HP writes "here is no harm in it and reading would prevent you from cussing when someone more knowledgeable shreds your posts to pieces. Even the population in those countries was better educated and had more technical skills than what we have in Pakistan now."

Mian sahib, nothing in your posts shreads mine to pieces, as usual you can make claims with no meat. So now after having being caught with your pants down regarding the industrial base, which was next to zero after the war you seek refuge in technical skill. That is not the same my friend and the $10 billion that you tout as the Army figure would be big enough to buy all the technical skill you need to develop, it is not the money or the capital it is the system that keeps these countries down, and not only Pakistan. Yes your advice about reading applies more to you than to me, read some, and do not partake in self stupefication, as I had sincerely suggested, that is destroying whatever morality your posts might have had in the past....

Thank you kindly for your attention and advice,
Take care now, and stay away from the company of your old employers, the CIA,

TNI Masadi

"The destruction and control of Iraq was essential in shattering the Jihadi spirit and to stop the cycle of revenge let loose after the first Gulf war
http://www.chowk.com/articles/10431
Now please explain to us in your confusion if Jihadi=Arab and Arab=Jihadi. Even though it is immaterial you reason is so outlandish and stupid that it doesn't deserve a second thought."

Asadi,
I looked at that article and your posts there, I guess then you had no such thoughts. You were the most prolific poster on that article.
In fact, I have barely used the word "Islamist" in that article. Jihadi is what they go by. That is how they are known. The theme was that Iraq in 2003 was a revenge for what the arabs supposedly did and that still holds true. there were some other reasons too but that article dealt with a specific side of the conflict.

"They did not have a "larger industrial base" after the war was done with its ravages."

I guess if you read you will find the truth. Do some research and learn. There is no harm in it and reading would prevent you from cussing when someone more knowledgeable shreds your posts to pieces. Even the population in those countries was better educated and had more technical skills than what we have in Pakistan now. Records are not difficult to find. All you need is an open mind that you lack so obviously. I don’t know what the $10 billion in 1948 would be in today’s value but it would be substantial.
“because the US wanted them built up,�
That is a different issue…I don’t think that US is the only sources of development and investment funds in the world NOW!

Try and sleep more...staying up all night makes you groggy and confused!