There is no ‘honour’ in killing

Re: # 42
HP...
The best example of land reforms is West Bengal and village sides are quite prosperous compared to other states. Bihar , UP and Rajasthan are states, where land reform was least effective and now causing feudal wars between Ranvir Sena (Land Lords) and Naxalites(farm labours). In Maharashtra Bhudan movement by Acharya Binova Bhave, succeeded well....
As per GOI, a family can hold upto 54 acres of land. That is sufficient for a 7/8 member family of three generations. But, how many people holds that much of land?

Re: # 43
Vengat...
To some extent correct. Secondarily land holding par capita decreased due to natural reasons ( population is growing but there is not enough jungle left to be converted into cultivable land). There were 2 options left in such situation
1) Increase productivity without increasing input cost much-
Due Govt. subsidy farmers in Punjab and Hariana exploited it.


2) Create good market for produces-
I know, for perishable vegetable, farmers are still very much dependent on others, and sometimes the price drops so low that, they prefers throwing rather than selling....


Majumder-
Socialism/capitalism is not any issue as per as economic success is concerned. What will you treat ancient Indian system as? It was still the best model for growth, without creating social disharmony.

In any society, every person has to get some assigned job, which he likes and skilled at. Then pay accroding to what it produces ... and "ma faleshu kadachana" (Bhagwat Geeta).

There are couple of flop sides in US capitalism. It creates corruption in upper layer, which you do not see directly ( the way police takes bribe etc...).

Well said, Masadi sahib. Social Justice indeed!!

PS: The opposition is hiding in the closet, sir. Not daring to step out!

Now, I must get going, but beware, the social justice stand will never go away and there will be no apologies for defending it.

Thank you kindly,

TNI Masadi

Kulharee sahib, you are acting as a fine gentleman today with your peacemaking in ramazan. May Allah reward you for your kind generosity in bringing people back in line...

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Salam and greetings of peace my worthy friend,

This is TNI Masadi, the old masadi got out of the bag for a little while because of some people trying to push the pov of the uber tyrants of this world, which he develops a short fuse over.

Let me apologize on his behalf to HP sahib and the rest of the offended gang. Nothing personal but we wont agree to sell the nation to the "lowest" Western bidder so that he can drain our blood like he as the past 60 years under one excuse or pie in the sky and another. If foreign investment is to come in, it must come in with strict conditions of reinvestment of profit in Pakistan, proper wages to the people and local infrastructure and human capital building, with ownership control with the locals with strict government oversight. If not, it can go to India, there is no way an "industrial base" can ever develop in Pakistan with predatory foreign investment of the kind we have been seeing in the past 60 years, in the next 60 years if alive these people will be making the same arguments when half the country has starved to death and sixteen pieces of Pakistan have declared "sovereignty".

Thank you kindly for your time and attention, and let me apologize again for any personal offense I might have caused.

TNI Masadi

Please don't fight guys, it is Ramzan.

Masadi Sahib makes a good point, and GDP is a useless indicator for economies where a good chunk of the economic activity is either undocumented or is underground. International comparisons of this indicator will always have built in biases. The success of European postwar recovery lies in IMF, the World Bank, favorable tariffs and the steel industry.

HP writes "f you claim that GDP numbers are inaccurate, present the right ones, just saying it will not do it."

Regarding the GDP figures you threw out, please note that they are in "International Dollars" (if you have learned how to read tables), meaning having purchasing parity with one US $ (yeah check on that also). Pakistan GPD in PPP in 2006 was around US $ 437 Billion, higher than all of the European "industrial base" countries you show in that cheap table (http://www.onwar.com/articles/0302.htm),you linked to, and higher than France and Italy and most certainly Japan, even when we translate these 2007 prices into 1990 price by dividing by 1.6 approximately; which of course brings your non point to a crashing collapse. I am not an "emotional wreck", but you certainly are a moron, and the facts are on my side, no historian worth the name will claim that the post war recovery of the war ravaged countries of Europe was due to their preexisting "industrial base". This point you pulled out of your fat a$$, as you often do.

In #124, and not understanding the things you read.

HP writes "his is your example of Industrial production? and you think you're smart.....what food shortages have to do with Industrial base?"

That was not my example of industrial production, it was an example of the state of the British economy that you implied "took off" because of its industrial base post war. Industrial base had nothing to do with it. Food shortages have a lot to do with an economy, "industrial base" means nothing when a country cannot even feed itself. Your point is a non-point because that "base" was destroyed by the war and needed institutional support together with Marshall Aid to pull the out, and previous "base" or not they could never have managed to come out of it were it not for such institutional support. Of course the economy is going to grow during the war with war time production and everyone employed, why is it not supposed to grow, but when the war was done with there was hardly any infrastructure or factories left in Germany to explain its growth thereafter. Not a single scholar places Germany's recovery post war on its previous infrastructure. I had challenged you to show that and instead of doing that you selectively copy paste quotes to obfuscate from the issue at hand. That is the difference between claiming yourself "educated" because you can read stuff here and there and understanding the things you read.

Here is another example of your illiteracy: "You have not shown anywhere yet, that that was not the case! Pakistan’s GDP in 2007 was $143B. Even going by 1990 pricing, Japan was twice the Pakistan size. In 1990 Pakistan GDP was perhaps $20 billion (estimate)."

When you show the 1940s GDP in 1990 prices it does not refer to what the budged of country x in 1990 was. Pakistan's 2007 GDP can be translated into 1990 prices and it will still amount to more than what you table showed Japan's GDP (after years of plunder and industry) was. Once again you manufacture and pull numbers out of your fat a$$.

Then he writes "But so far you have not presented any reference to support your claim that the industrial base was completely devastated in the 2ww"

Very clever, "industrial base" means shit when your workforce does not have food, when your factories are destroyed, when you infrastructure is in total shambles, and when there is no transportation. What "base" remained in Germany except the indication that once that rubble was a factory. You are outrageously stupid. Then in the Jstor article, the gist of the review of the post war construction papers is clear: it was the Marshall aid together with institutional expediency offered by the US that led to such growth in Germany. You are so dishonest that you claim that the $1 or so billion the Germans gave as reparations showed that their industrial base was intact while the $10 or so billion of Pakistan's manufacturing sector controlled by the Army is peanuts to you all for the purpose of supporting the ulterior motive of pushing foreign investment of the predatory type that in the past 60 years has drained the country and kept it in the situation it is in together with the Army.

Get an education, an 8th grade education wont do. You have learned how to read and write but your comprehension and analysis is way poor, and needs massive work. Throwing out GDP numbers while not having a clue how they "prove" your point says nothing except reveals your dumb a$$. Regarding my level of "sophistication", these posts are not meant to reveal that my academic work, papers and articles do. An eighth grade huh, where do those big claims of being a "student-activist" come from, more lies that you have pulled out of your a$$, before you were hired by the CIA?

Have a nice day

#121 Posted by masadi
"Throwing out GDP numbers so that his nonsense points appear automatically authoritative is the kind of "scholarship" you would expect from the Pakistani rote learned scholar."

Go on with your nonsense. You are showing your own class!

I have never claimed to be a scholar. In fact, I admit that I passed 8th grade and that is my highest level of education. Except for a little work that I did for Georgetown.
I am truly the aathween(middle) pass you see in Pakistan not even the Dusween pass.
I hope that helps you. Now show me some of your academic sophistication that you might have acquired through higher eduction and college degrees.

Asadi,

“Here is the economic condition of the UK at the beginning of the war, not much better than pakistan's
At the beginning of World War II, the UK imported 55 million tons of foodstuffs per year (70%), including more than 50% of its meat, 70% of its cheese and sugar, nearly 80% of fruits and about 90% of cereals and fats…..�

This is your example of Industrial production? and you think you're smart.

Many European countries were beset with food shortage during the war…what food shortages have to do with Industrial base?

Here is what I have maintained all along:
“Marshall plan was in 1948 for countries that despite the ravages of the war, had a much larger industrial base than Pakistan has now�

You have not shown anywhere yet, that that was not the case! Pakistan’s GDP in 2007 was $143B. Even going by 1990 pricing, Japan was twice the Pakistan size. In 1990 Pakistan GDP was perhaps $20 billion (estimate).

All your posts are mere shrieks. You are an emotional wreck because you can’t counter the facts and run along wherever your wondering mind takes you. Show some signs of being a scholar. At least present your thoughts with some sophistication instead of some low-brow erudition.

You are just a rube nothing else. If you claim that GDP numbers are inaccurate, present the right ones, just saying it will not do it. The more you throw temper tantrums, the crazier you appear. You claim to be an academician and a scholar but so far you have not presented any reference to support your claim that the industrial base was completely devastated in the 2ww, at least present some numbers and facts to counter what I have posted. I posted the aircraft numbers to show that the industrial base was NOT completely destroyed. There was no way the British could have possibly manufactured 26000 aircraft if the industrial base was completely destroyed. (Pakistan still can’t do that.) There is no doubt that there was lots of devastation but it was not complete as you claim! Show any reference that ALL manufacturing units/factories in Germany or England were completed bombed out or destroyed!

And please copy paste any relevant info from that www.jstor.org article not everyone has subscription to it.
Rea some more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

“ Much of the doubt about the effectiveness of the bomber war comes from the oft-stated fact that German industrial production increased throughout the war. While this is true, it fails to note production also increased in the United States, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, Canada and Australia. And, in all of those countries, the rate of production increased much more rapidly than in Germany. Until late in the war, industry had not been geared for war and German factory workers only worked a single shift. Simply by going to three shifts, production could have been tripled with no change to the infrastructure. However, attacks on the infrastructure were taking place. The attacks on Germany's canals and railroads made transportation of materiel difficult.�

“The attack on oil production, oil refineries and tank farms was, however, extremely successful and made a very large contribution to the general collapse of Germany in 1945. In the event, the bombing of oil facilities became Albert Speer's main concern; however, this occurred sufficiently late in the war that Germany would soon be defeated in any case. Nevertheless, it is fair to say the oil bombing campaign materially shortened the war, thereby saving many lives.�

Warfare between 1939 and 1945 was thoroughly industrialized. The major combatants mobilized between a half and two-thirds of their industrial work-force, and devoted up to three-quarters of their national product to waging war. This was war waged on an unprecedented scale. The economic commitment was partly a result of the nature of modern weaponry, which could be reproduced in mass by utilizing existing production methods and the civilian work-force and management. The cluster of new industries which emerged before 1939--motor vehicles, aviation, radio, chemicals--could easily be converted at speed to produce tanks, fighters, or explosives. The Oxford Illustrated History of Modern War. Ed. Charles Townshend. New York: Oxford UP, 1997.

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20060406-bombing-strategic -world-war-ii-grayling-among-dead-cities-germany-japan-civilians-royal-air-force -atomic-bomb-richard-pape-terrorism-russia-axis.shtml
Grayling at one point quotes a British estimate that strategic bombing, apparently both area bombing and precision attacks, reduced German armaments output by just 1 percent in 1944.
They begin with the notion that the RAF targeted German civilians because early in the war it couldn’t directly attack German production without ruinous loss. Daylight raids on heavily defended positions were catastrophic for Bomber Command, and most bombs dropped in the first years of the air war failed to land within five miles of their targets; the only targets big enough to hit with any level of accuracy were cities. Cities contained factories and industrial workers,

Btw HP sahib went through similar pains when confronted by Agha Amin here a while back. After having shown HP the door because as usual HP has the habit of pulling nonsense (unbacked by anything) from his (fat) behind, he felt he had lost his so-called analyst position on this site. Amin sahib even though his conclusions are uncalled for at times is quite thorough in his tabulations, more so than anything I can say for the sorry pieces HP writes. Throwing out GDP numbers so that his nonsense points appear automatically authoritative is the kind of "scholarship" you would expect from the Pakistani rote learned scholar. Doesn't work with people who can think and who just don't pull history from their rear ends.....Industrial base my a$$, Europe couldn't feed itself after WW2 and had the US and its institutions done with it what they do with the Third World, they would be worse than the least developed countries of the world...

Here is some reading from the Journal of Economic Literature totally in line with what I have been writing, not some pitting GDP figures (provided by an economic illiterate who can only read GDP figures without knowing what they signify) of European recovery after WW2, and it has nothing to do with the devastated industrial base.

http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-0515(199706)35%3A2%3C814%3AEPR%3E2. 0.CO%3B2-L

HP writes "I am done with your ridiculous empty revolutionary zeal."

Losers are always "done", and after being done partake in self stupification. Your posts and your points were pathetic. I challenge you here to provide for me one academic source that says that Europe was able to recover after WW2 due to its preexisting industrial base. I challenge you to do that. You cannot do it because as usual you pull out claims and manufacture them from your fat behind....

they set up shop to exploit cheap labor

HP writes "Please present some numbers and sources to make your point. Abuses and cusses don't impress me at all.

Here are some facts from Germany and Britain after the war and see the numbers yourself. If you have some shame you will acknowledge that even the Japanese GDP at the end of the war was hinger than Pakistan's current GDP"'

HP sahib, caught with your pants down claiming that the industrial infrastructure of Europe was not devastated by the war when it was thoroughly and totally destroyed, you come up with GDP numbers that prove nothing at all, the drastic fall of over 25% in Germany's GDP tells a lot. What you have to do to "prove" your point (and btw Japan's GDP at the end of the war was not "higher" than pakistan's, those are 1990 numbers that some author has manufactured, get your numbers correct). German factories were a pile of rubble after WW2, and relatively little input lifted them up, much of the infrastructure was destroyed as well. GDP doesn't measure such "destruction". Another cheap effort by HP to save face by denying the fact that Europe devastated by WW2 with relatively little input was allowed to rise to domination.

Nevermind that argument, let us consider your bs regarding private investment lifting up Pakistan when the facts show that these foreign investors don't build up the country to make it equal competing partners, they set up show to exploit cheap labor and then then drain the profit through reparations from the country. How does Japan's GDP post during World War 2 prove your point?

HP writes "n 1944 alone, British manufactured 26,452 different kind of aircraft"

They still don't manufacture 26,452 "different kinds" of aircraft. Get a grip on the BS you are writing. Their aircraft production might have been 26,452, that certainly does not prove their current standing in the world today, they had a long history of industrialization which was completely and thoroughly devastated during the war, less than Germany's but devastated nonetheless.

HP writes "Asadi, your posts are tiring, lack substance and coherence, and downright petty. "

What is petty is your immoral attempt at lies and manufacturing history and presenting estimates of GDP figures as if they were the "real thing" and as if they show the state of European industry after the war had devastated it. Wrong on both counts. What else is petty is that you have not even approached proving your point that pakistan will be saved by foreign investment when history shows otherwise, unlike European history where industry is built by draining the Third World.

Here is the economic condition of the UK at the beginning of the war, not much better than pakistan's

At the beginning of World War II, the UK imported 55 million tons of foodstuffs per year (70%), including more than 50% of its meat, 70% of its cheese and sugar, nearly 80% of fruits and about 90% of cereals and fats. It was one of the principal strategies of the Axis to attack shipping bound for the UK, restricting British industry and potentially starving the nation into submission (see Battle of the Atlantic).

In order to deal with the extreme shortages the Ministry of Food instituted a system of rationing. Each person would register with their local shops, and was provided with a ration book containing coupons

Throwing out BS numbers of GDP that do not measure the condition of an economy, just its size says nothing to prove your nonsense that European industry wasn't destroyed during the war. If your education only affords you to read GDP numbers, then you are a sorry case indeed.


Majumdar writes "So the Marshall Plan was working on fertile ground. And in any case USD 10 bn or so was worth a lot more in 1940s than what Pakistan received in the 1990s and 2000s"

It doesn't matter what Pakistan received what it gave out is a lot more than multiple Marshall plans put together. The "fertile" ground was the will to make it develop and not any infrastructure or factories that could be salvaged. That is just HP pipe dream to cover his BS after being caught with his pants down. Can you imagine this nonsense? he is claiming that European industry escaped unhurt from World War 2 and that was the base that the Marshall plan worked on!

Fellows: Please
#116 anil #115 majumdar #114 anil #113 anil #112 majumdar
#111 anil #110 majumdar #109 anil #108 majumdar #107 anil
#106 anil #105 majumdar #104 HP........

Do you have anything to say about honour killings?
Kamath

Majumdar:

You can say that for all countries. There are some people, some infrastructure. I had seen in Erfurt, shortly after the fall of Berlin Wall, the computer manufacturing infrastruture. This was one of their largest companies, believe me, it was worse than Lajpat Rai Market where entrepreneurs crank out 1,000 tape decks a month out of small khokas. That is the difference between entrepreneurship and other form.

Isn't this the point you also are trying to make to Masadi sahib? I have written about it many times. Entrepreneurship shown in Taiwan is not even matched in Korea. Absence of markets, absence of entrepreneurs - what can you do with damaged infrastructure. I have dealt with entrepreneurs all over Europe, the U.S. and East Asia (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan and Korea). I would not put Germans or French anywhere near the U.S. and East Asian entrepreneurs. There is more entrepreneurship in England than Germany.

German industries are quite structured, and entrepreneurs play more limited role. France is almost socialist. Sarkozy may change now.

Anil,

Both Germanies had significant industrial infrastructure, Ruhr in West, the Upper Saxony Region in East. Sure, East Germany had no entrepreneurs and markets but they had people and knowhow no. And with Soviet help they did rebuild, of course with not as much success as West which had superior knowledge, tecnhology, capital and access to markets.

Regards

Majumdar:

Germany was divided and lost substantial industrial infrastructure that was in E. Germany - Erfurt, Leipzig (??), Berlin. During E. Germany days, there were no entreprenurs, or market. Economy was completely reorganized.

I think you might like to investigate a little more.

Re: # 112

Majumdar:

Don't you think that is like saying, army and bureaucracy also has people in place? These cases I mentioned are good ones to read, good management restructuring was done, and lot of purging was done. Also please do not forget that Japan's industrial basis were nuked that means a lot of people too. Similarly Krup example is kind of unique. German corporate structure was also family owned, so many Nazi sympathizing families lost out. Quite a few migrated to Latin America. These were mostly powerful people who migrated to escape prosecution.

Anil,

The Korean name for a conglo is Chaebol.

Of course, my main point was that the basic structure (technology, entrepeneurs, skilled workers and culture) were already in place.

Regards

Majumdar:

I was going to tell you about these two. There are HBS cases that you can read for more.

German industrial infrastructure was not destroyed, and was needed to revive. Krup was put on trial and jailed, and only then released as there was no buyer. Quite akin to it it Baath Party members being brought into civil service in Iraq.

Japanese Zaibatsu has three elements - Manufacturing arm, trading arm and Banking arm. These three together work. Mitsubishi (as I recall now many years after reading the case) was able to reassemble under Keiretsu , where supply chains have cross holdings. Even now Toyota has holdings in its suppliers. T. Boone Pickens tried to break Keiretsu created by Toyota in 80s, did not work and sold his shares.

Mitsubishi Bank provided money to its suppliers, while trading house sold. Americans wanted total reforms in Japan, and did not succeed, much like Krup's case, even in Japan the same thing happened. Mitsubishi's post war history is very fasscinating I would love read it again. Korea was later reconstructed much the same way as Japan. There is a Korean name for Japanese equivalent of Keiretsu. Hyundai, Samsung, LG, Daiwoo, and one more, in all five were created. Entrepreneurial story of Hyundai founder is very interesting. Americans had called for tender to dismantle and remove the bridge over Seoul River. All bidders charged money to dismantle and remove, Hyundai's founding Chairman offered to buy for $1 instead. He used the steel scrap to build his first capital. All five were quite corrupt in the early days.

Anilji,

You might wnat to comment on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp

After Germany's defeat, when Gustav proved incapable of going on trial, the Nuremberg Military Tribunal convicted Alfred as a war criminal in the Krupp Trial for his company's use of slave labor. It sentenced him to 12 years in prison and ordered him to sell 75% of his holdings. In 1951, as the Cold War developed and no buyer came forward, the authorities released him, and in 1953 he resumed control of the firm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi

Also, like many other large Japanese corporations at that time, it made use of slave labor from Allied POWs and the Japanese captured territories, like Korea and China. With poor working conditions, many people died during this period. Mitsubishi participated in Japan's unprecedented economic growth of the 1950s and 1960s.

Regards

Not really cosmetic changes, you would then say cosmetic changes to their Army also. In Japan, the change was very dramatic, Allied forces created special economic zones, and controlled contract awards and projects to weed out fascists. In Germany, Marshall Plan was little more accomodating in reorganizing, Gasellschaft. Old one's were all denied access to capital and contracts.

Many years later, in Keiretsu people started to come back. Memoirs of Geisha depicts this era. I do not know if you read the novel or watched movie.

Bottom line is corporate governance was purged too.

Anilji,

Cosmetic changes, sir. The same Mitusbishis and Suzukis and Siemens and Krupps who dominated Jap and German industry continued after with a makeover.

Regards

Re: # 106

Correction:

In "Pre" was Japan, corporate structure was Zaibatsu.

Majumdar:

Without going into other part of the debate. In post war Japan corporate structure was Zaibatsu that was destroyed by the Allies during the reconstruction. The same was done in Germany Gasellschaft system was destroy too. Complete new corporate governance called Keiretsu was put in place in Japan. Whereas in Germany, Gasellschaft was revamped and reorganized.

This was done to ensure everything was rid of any traces of Nazis and fascism.

The War may have devastated Germany and Japan's factories it did not destroy the corporations, the technology and a good chunk of the skilled manpower which set up these factories in the first place. So the Marshall Plan was working on fertile ground. And in any case USD 10 bn or so was worth a lot more in 1940s than what Pakistan received in the 1990s and 2000s.

Regards

Asadi, your posts are tiring, lack substance and coherence, and downright petty.

Please present some numbers and sources to make your point. Abuses and cusses don't impress me at all.

Here are some facts from Germany and Britain after the war and see the numbers yourself. If you have some shame you will acknowledge that even the Japanese GDP at the end of the war was hinger than Pakistan's current GDP.
Here are GDP.
Allied and Axis GDP
http://www.onwar.com/articles/0302.htm

Marshall Plan aid to Germany was not that large. Cumulative aid from the Marshall Plan and other aid programs totaled only $2 billion through October 1954. Even in 1948 and 1949, when aid was at its peak, Marshall Plan aid was less than 5 percent of German national income. Other countries that received substantial Marshall Plan aid had lower growth than Germany.

Moreover, while Germany was receiving aid, it was also making reparations and restitution payments that were well over $1 billion. Finally, and most important, the Allies charged the Germans DM7.2 billion annually ($2.4 billion) for their costs of occupying Germany. (Of course, these occupation costs also meant that Germany did not need to pay for its own defense.)

Here are some numbers about the British war production of aircrafts only.
http://spitfire-site.com/history/articles/2007/09/british-aircraft-produc tion-1938-1944.htm

The production of fighters, however, was not affected, consuming roughly between 20-30% of the overall industrial effort during the period 1941-1944.

In 1944 alone, British manufactured 26,452 different kind of aircraft including Heavy Bombers 5,507, medium Bombers 2,396, and fighter+ fighter bomber 10,730

I am done with your ridiculous empty revolutionary zeal.

HP writes "looked at that article and your posts there, I guess then you had no such thoughts. You were the most prolific poster on that article.
In fact, I have barely used the word "Islamist" in that article. Jihadi is what they go by. That is how they are known. The theme was that Iraq in 2003 was a revenge for what the arabs supposedly did and that still holds true. there were some other reasons too but that article dealt with a specific side of the conflict."

Salam and greetings of peace my worthy friend. I was indeed prolific then and am prolific now but never did I agree with your assertion of the US war being "revenge", the US is not a gamienshaft community type society to undertake revenge punishment. Its punishment is restitutive, as signifies societies with a high division of labor, a gesellschaft, it is for the purpose of restitution, bringing the rogue back into the system. That was the purpose behind the US war on Iraq. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because I thought that you knowing the excesses of the system that goes hand in hand with its foreign investment would give up on its BS but you have started pushing it full force for some reason. That is quite intolerable.

HP writes "here is no harm in it and reading would prevent you from cussing when someone more knowledgeable shreds your posts to pieces. Even the population in those countries was better educated and had more technical skills than what we have in Pakistan now."

Mian sahib, nothing in your posts shreads mine to pieces, as usual you can make claims with no meat. So now after having being caught with your pants down regarding the industrial base, which was next to zero after the war you seek refuge in technical skill. That is not the same my friend and the $10 billion that you tout as the Army figure would be big enough to buy all the technical skill you need to develop, it is not the money or the capital it is the system that keeps these countries down, and not only Pakistan. Yes your advice about reading applies more to you than to me, read some, and do not partake in self stupefication, as I had sincerely suggested, that is destroying whatever morality your posts might have had in the past....

Thank you kindly for your attention and advice,
Take care now, and stay away from the company of your old employers, the CIA,

TNI Masadi

"The destruction and control of Iraq was essential in shattering the Jihadi spirit and to stop the cycle of revenge let loose after the first Gulf war
http://www.chowk.com/articles/10431
Now please explain to us in your confusion if Jihadi=Arab and Arab=Jihadi. Even though it is immaterial you reason is so outlandish and stupid that it doesn't deserve a second thought."

Asadi,
I looked at that article and your posts there, I guess then you had no such thoughts. You were the most prolific poster on that article.
In fact, I have barely used the word "Islamist" in that article. Jihadi is what they go by. That is how they are known. The theme was that Iraq in 2003 was a revenge for what the arabs supposedly did and that still holds true. there were some other reasons too but that article dealt with a specific side of the conflict.

"They did not have a "larger industrial base" after the war was done with its ravages."

I guess if you read you will find the truth. Do some research and learn. There is no harm in it and reading would prevent you from cussing when someone more knowledgeable shreds your posts to pieces. Even the population in those countries was better educated and had more technical skills than what we have in Pakistan now. Records are not difficult to find. All you need is an open mind that you lack so obviously. I don’t know what the $10 billion in 1948 would be in today’s value but it would be substantial.
“because the US wanted them built up,�
That is a different issue…I don’t think that US is the only sources of development and investment funds in the world NOW!

Try and sleep more...staying up all night makes you groggy and confused!

HP writes "Wow! Asadi, I just took you to task and you are already down to cussing me!
Please provide me link to where I said,"the US attacked Saddam to punish the Islamists"....I guess like the phobia neocons you can't see the difference in Islamist and the Arabs."

Salam and greetings of peace, HP sahib,

Where and when did you take me to task? You like tahmed are backtracking from your CIA training to obfuscate the facts. You wrote in that pathetic piece of manufactured BS :
"The destruction and control of Iraq was essential in shattering the Jihadi spirit and to stop the cycle of revenge let loose after the first Gulf war

http://www.chowk.com/articles/10431

Now please explain to us in your confusion if Jihadi=Arab and Arab=Jihadi. Even though it is immaterial you reason is so outlandish and stupid that it doesn't deserve a second thought.

Then he writes "Asadi, It does not hurt to learn new things. Some of what was written in 1955 may not apply now. Socialism is history it is not coming back because there is NO force that could bring socialism back..."

It doesn't matter when it was written if you can back up what you are out to prove with evidence as I do, it does indeed apply. Just because you say socialism is of the past doesn't make it so and just because you say foreign investment will work magic when it has not because in a greed based skewed economy it can never, does not mean you are right.

Then he writes "Marshall plan was in 1948 for countries that despite the ravages of the war, had a much larger industrial base than Pakistan has now. Why don't you read up on stuff instead of dreaming of socialist revolution in Afghanistan?"

They did not have a "larger industrial base" after the war was done with its ravages. It was built from near zero because the US wanted them built up, unlike the Third World that is given funds so that greater funds can be extracted. A whole history of examples is before us as is the condition of the world. You are the one imagining and running away from reality when you see the condition of the world and what the capitalist system has done to it and then pooh pooh the only viable alternative.

Jannat and the Taliban have nothing to do with it but just as a pathetic moron clinging at straws you try to do the same, the result of self stupification caused by private property relations, embodied in the escape offered by liquor that has fried your brain.....my friend

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Asadi, It does not hurt to learn new things. Some of what was written 1955 may not apply now. Socialism is history it is not coming back because there is force that could bring socialism back..

Correction:
Asadi, It does not hurt to learn new things. Some of what was written in 1955 may not apply now. Socialism is history it is not coming back because there is NO force that could bring socialism back...

"BTW the amount you quote of Pakistan's manufacturing economy is still greater than the Marshall Aid that the US gave Europe post WW2"

Marshall plan was in 1948 for countries that despite the ravages of the war, had a much larger industrial base than Pakistan has now. Why don't you read up on stuff instead of dreaming of socialist revolution in Afghanistan?

"imagine what that can accomplish in the health and education sector. Imagine what the properly managed agricultural revenue could accomplish, imagine what a proper taxation scheme could accomplish and image what getting rid of the under and unemployment could accomplish."

I guess pragmatism is not in your dictionary! Politics and economics are serious business and most jannat seekers end up in some squalor. Hopes are good but you got to match them with realities on the ground! Sorry, my imagination will never fly as high as yours!

"From your Iraq article claiming that the US attacked Saddam to punish the Islamists (CIA magic trick)and other nonsense you've proven yourself to be a typical product of colonial education illiterate, regardless of the high pedestal you've put yourself on, on this site...."

Wow! Asadi, I just took you to task and you are already down to cussing me!
Please provide me link to where I said,"the US attacked Saddam to punish the Islamists"....I guess like the phobia neocons you can't see the difference in Islamist and the Arabs.

Asadi, It does not hurt to learn new things. Some of what was written 1955 may not apply now. Socialism is history it is not coming back because there is force that could bring socialism back...

Unless the cave dwellers and Taliban are thinking of creating a socialist state in Afghanistan! Well, you would know more about that for sure!

HP writes "I think you smoke more and read less. "

No sirji, I have read more in the past week I can guarantee you than you've read this year. And I don't smoke. The liquor self-stupification, pathetic and repulsive, that you partake in helps you make these ignorant comments...

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

HP wrote "his sums up your knowledge of the Pakistan manufacturing sector. I think you smoke more and read less. It is peanuts because $36 billion total manufacturing is really peanuts.

GDP (2007 est., official exchange rate): $143.8 billion.
Manufacturing 25% of the GDP about $36 billion.
30%(army owned) of the total Manufacturing = $10.8
You think you are going to change the economy by taking over manufacturing worth $10.8?
Some koolAid!"

What sums up your knowledge is a cheap skate copy paste. $10 billion over nearly a decade by the US made the Pakistan army jump up and down all over the place, imagine what that can accomplish in the health and education sector. Imagine what the properly managed agricultural revenue could accomplish, imagine what a proper taxation scheme could accomplish and image what getting rid of the under and unemployment could accomplish. BTW the amount you quote of Pakistan's manufacturing economy is still greater than the Marshall Aid that the US gave Europe post WW2, the entire region that with a better structure, a near socialist protected structure could emerge from rather than more of the same BS of the Musharraf era that you are suggesting without btw having any knowledge of the economics involved. You are a sellout just like tahmed, and as all sellouts you happen to be a word manipulator and certainly not a scholar...

Asadi,
"they might be riding the tide but when it goes down they will crash and crash bad."

Anything to back this up? Or this is just wishful thinking?
Let it go, you have no argument left.

"Only these countries that tried the socialist path were kept from being decimated during the lost decade of the 1980s that took your neo-liberally private capitalized countries down the tube."

And those countries are?
Don't just make speeches show something to back up your claims.

"HP sahib wants more of the same maybe so that Sindh can be liberated when Pakistan is destroyed"
Hp: This does not even deserve a response.

Why doesn't it deserve a response. You are an ethno-freak who wants Sindh seperate, why hide it like tahmed hides his worship of the white man? Your methodology of "saving" Pakistan has brought it to the condition that it is in, socialism will develop the country's human capital, and there is enough capital to do that, when it starts doing that your friends in the IMF and WB that are asking for and getting subsidy removal will stop the funds and try to starve the country, only releasing them when their "foreign investment" can further enslave the country by policies that have to date kept over 80% of the people living at the margins...

Have a nice day, and get an education, just because you can put two words together doesn't mean you know sh**. From your Iraq article claiming that the US attacked Saddam to punish the Islamists (CIA magic trick)and other nonsense you've proven yourself to be a typical product of colonial education illiterate, regardless of the high pedestal you've put yourself on, on this site....


TNI Masadi

"HP sahib wants more of the same maybe so that Sindh can be liberated when Pakistan is destroyed"
Hp: This does not even deserve a response.

Why doesn't it deserve a response. You are an ethno-freak who wants Sindh seperate, why hide it like tahmed hides his worship of the white man? Your methodology of "saving" Pakistan has brought it to the condition that it is in, socialism will develop the country's human capital, and there is enough capital to do that, when it starts doing that your friends in the IMF and WB that are asking for and getting subsidy removal will stop the funds and try to starve the country, only releasing them when their "foreign investment" can further enslave the country by policies that have to date kept over 80% of the people living at the margins...

Have a nice day, and get an education, just because you can put two words together doesn't mean you know sh**. From your Iraq article claiming that the US attacked Saddam to punish the Islamists (CIA magic trick)and other nonsense you've proven yourself to be a typical product of colonial education illiterate, regardless of the high pedestal you've put yourself on, on this site....


TNI Masadi

Asadi, your Razor wit is sharper than Marvi Memon's Tongue!

"30% of Pakistan's manufacturing economy is not peanuts,"

This sums up your knowledge of the Pakistan manufacturing sector. I think you smoke more and read less. It is peanuts because $36 billion total manufacturing is really peanuts.

GDP (2007 est., official exchange rate): $143.8 billion.
Manufacturing 25% of the GDP about $36 billion.
30%(army owned) of the total Manufacturing = $10.8
You think you are going to change the economy by taking over manufacturing worth $10.8?
Some koolAid!

For crying out loud: look at the shit they Are manufacturing!
http://www.pide.org.pk/pdf/Working%20Paper/Working%20Paper-27.pd f

Here is a snapshot of Pakistan's economy.
GDP (2007 est., official exchange rate): $143.8 billion.
Real GDP growth rate (2005): 7.8%.
Per capita GDP (2007 est., PPP): $2,600.
Natural resources: Arable land, natural gas, limited oil, substantial hydropower potential, coal, iron ore, copper, salt, limestone.
Agriculture: Products--wheat, cotton, rice, sugarcane, eggs, fruits, vegetables, milk, beef, mutton.
Industry: Types--textiles & apparel, food processing, pharmaceuticals, construction materials, shrimp, fertilizer, and paper products.
Trade (2007 est.): Exports--$16.31 billion: textiles (garments, bed linen, cotton cloth, and yarn), rice, leather goods, sports goods, carpets, rugs, chemicals and manufactures. Major partners--U.S. 21%, United Arab Emirates 9%, Afghanistan 7.7%, U.K. 5.1%, China 5.3%. Imports--$30.33 billion: petroleum, petroleum products, machinery, plastics, paper and paper board, transportation equipment, edible oils, pulses, iron and steel, tea. Major partners--China 13.8%, Saudi Arabia 10.5%, United Arab Emirates 9.7%, Japan 5.7%, U.S. 6.5%, Kuwait 4.7%, Germany 4.1%.
Pakistan's manufacturing sector accounts for about 25% of GDP. Cotton textile production and apparel manufacturing are Pakistan's largest industries, accounting for about 70% of total exports. Other major industries include food processing, beverages, construction materials, clothing, and paper products. As technology improves in the industrial sector, it continues to grow. In 2005/2006, the manufacturing sector grew by 8.6%. Despite government efforts to privatize large-scale parastatal units, the public sector continues to account for a significant proportion of industry. In the face of an increasing trade deficit, the government seeks to diversify the country's industrial base and bolster export industries.
Net foreign investment in Pakistani industries is only 0.5% of GDP.

I am done with this debate w/you.

HP writes "China the only socialist country showing some economic promise, was forced to look for the private investments as they realized the paucity of capital as the main reason for their slow pace of development.

Indian economy did not show any promise of improvement until the foreign capital was encouraged."

More BS from the "economics guru", they might be riding the tide but when it goes down they will crash and crash bad. Only these countries that tried the socialist path were kept from being decimated during the lost decade of the 1980s that took your neo-liberally private capitalized countries down the tube. What has private capital done for the people of Pakistan, please explain. So is it that you've changed your profession from the CIA to the neo-liberal "think tanks" which are going to "tank" thanks to your support?

TNI Masadi

Btw Mr. HP, salam and greetings of peace,

read a couple of books and get some education. Your posts show how much you lag behind in that area. Throwing together words that repeat the dictators arguments with claims, proves nothing. Foreign capital has not and will not do anything for Pakistan, period. 30% of Pakistan's manufacturing economy is not peanuts, why is that in hands of the military? Given food prices agriculture can be developed without foreign direct investment by land reform, to gain capital, for starters. Just saying it cannot be done so let us sell the nation to the lowest western bidder is horse dung.

Thank you kindly,

TNI Masadi

HP writes "However, following your pathetic knowledge of economics and insistence of implementing socialism through the force of State would result in faster destruction of the country."

Salam and good evening to you my worthy friend. How goes this fine day? Baal Bacha?

Your answer is a prime example of the Pakistani, rote learned student who cannot think worth sh** but writes pages and pages worth nonsense to impress his teacher. Your point that Pakistan doesn't have the "capital" to invest in industry is BS. Its capital problem resides in its badly structured economy which, and I offered you the equally pathetic nature of Korea, can be turned around. The example fo the past 60 years of private investment keeping the structure dependent falls on deaf ears because not only can you not rebut it, your BS regarding your knowledge of economics comes through clearly.

What should I rebut in your totally unbacked by evidence, undocumented, BS post that tries to add words without making one single concrete argument. Marx wasn't my economics guru but compared to illiterates like you (and that is what your posts amount to), he was an intellectual giant.

Thank you kindly and have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Asadi,

“You are presenting a solution of "aggressive capitalism" to bypass the so called bloody solution regarding socialism. I was merely showing that capitalism is much more bloodier and not as holy and sacrosanct as you were presenting it.�

I explained what I meant by Aggressive capitalism. Yes, I will again insist that socialist solution failed and at two prime model locations, i.e. Russia and China it was brutally implemented completely disregarding the situation on the ground and put into action as an ideological solution rather than the economic solution. I think in over 60 countries in pretty much all continents, barring Western Europe and North America, Land reforms failed. The most recent failures are Zimbabwe and South Africa. A little search on the net will get you the information.

More countries have gone through the capitalism peacefully. The US follows its interests aggressively but that does not mean that capitalism be blamed for that as an economic system. Even your economic guru Karl Marx understood the need for capitalism before getting to the next phase. In the practical sense, in the socialist economy, the state instead of relying on the private capital, takes over the responsibility of providing capital. There is not a whole lot of difference in management. Socialism just means removing the personal greed and profit-making motives of the individual capitalists.

The reason this approach cannot succeed now is simple. Most of the states in the third world countries don’t have the capital to invest in industries. Some countries also don’t have the technical knowhow to manage complex projects and production.

China the only socialist country showing some economic promise, was forced to look for the private investments as they realized the paucity of capital as the main reason for their slow pace of development.

Indian economy did not show any promise of improvement until the foreign capital was encouraged.

You may have your ideological reasons to disagree with me but the reality is that Pakistan cannot afford the hackneyed solutions. Capitalists in the past too encouraged land reforms but the results are so pathetic that I doubt anyone should recommend land reforms as now there are plenty of ways to manage the productivity and development of large farms without going through yet another solution that may have some political value. Land reforms have not shown to have much economic value anyway.

In Pakistan, many consider feudalism as a political problem as large landholders can influence electoral decisions in some areas. That is the main reason for this demand of the land reforms but the reality in Pakistan is that so far electoral power has not changed much in the country. I seriously doubt that any political party would indulge in the luxury of land reforms and setting the rural areas in long-term economic turmoil.

“HP sahib's manufactured numbers and points regarding Pakistan being able to do nothing without foreign investment of the "blood sucking" type. He himself has admitted that the white man has no love lost for Pakistan or care for its people many a time.�

Actually you did not rebut anything. Show me where is excess capital in the Pak government hands?

I am astonished at your suggestion that taking over the Army owned industries would turn the country around. In principle, I agree that the army should not be in the private sector because that is not army’s job. However, taking over a few sugar mills, cement and cereal plants that army operates, is not the solution for the economy. It is a good thing to do politically, but sugar plants and cement plants are minor investments. They don’t turn the country around. It is funny that you think taking army’s industries over from the army Bureaucrats and transferring them over to civilian bureaucrats would help anything.

What that has to with what white man does? I have no problem with a White Capitalist. Every capitalist regardless of his/her color of skins operates for one purpose—make profits. It is your job to negotiate a better deal. 90% of new investments that could possibly come to Pakistan are owned by Arabs and Asians. White man is not the only source of capital any more. Which world do you live in?
I guess you have taken a leave from good judgment.

"HP sahib wants more of the same maybe so that Sindh can be liberated when Pakistan is destroyed"
This does not even deserve a response.
However, following your pathetic knowledge of economics and insistence of implementing socialism through the force of State would result in faster destruction of the country.

Maj writes "I am glad that you now share my admiration for Korea. You failed to mention of course that industrialisation in Korea was carried out by private entrepreneurs, not by idiot bureaucrats that is characterised as socialism."

Salam and greetings of peace Majumdar sahib. How are you doing today? Haal Chaal? Raazi Baazi? Baal Bacha?

Where did you read in my piece that I have "admiration" for Korea? I was just rebutting HP sahib's manufactured numbers and points regarding Pakistan being able to do nothing without foreign investment of the "blood sucking" type. He himself has admitted that the white man has no love lost for Pakistan or care for its people many a time. For Pakistan to be "Korea" it need occupation by US troops and breakup into two. I don't think that is a good option or example to follow. Regarding external investment, I think the loans that structurally adjust Pakistan and the sale of assets to the "not so high" western bidder have only impoverished the country and kept it on the wrong path. HP sahib wants more of the same maybe so that Sindh can be liberated when Pakistan is destroyed. Thank you kindly

TNI Masadi

Masadi sahib,

through land reform and properly regulated and protected industry, like Korea.

I am glad that you now share my admiration for Korea. You failed to mention of course that industrialisation in Korea was carried out by private entrepreneurs, not by idiot bureaucrats that is characterised as socialism.

HP sain,

Your conclusion that land reform ruined Bihar and UP is completely untrue, for the simple reason that land reform (and other social changes) completely bypassed these states. The most prosperous region in this whole belt is Western UP, where much of the land has historically been owned by medium sized peasantry (Jats, Gujjars, Tyagis etc.), not landlords.

Regards

masadi,

some spineless excuse for an schizo has access to your account and is posting ilogs, pretending to be you:

So LongPosted: Aug 2, 2008 Sat 05:13 am Views: 143 Interacts: 2 After making peace with everybody as The New and Improved Masadi, Mr. Masadi has decided to call it quits on Chowk. I will return only to reply to interacts on my articles if the chowk staff decide to publish them.

In the meantime, I remain
Slightly elusive, never abusive

The New and Improved Masadi....


That's All Folks

HP writes "My use of the term was generic and was in reference with the land reforms. You brought up US for no reason at all"

You mean it was not generic but rather situation specific. My point was not regarding the US it was regarding "capitalism", which you cannot neatly package into situations alone. It works as a system where the "bloody" part is all too evident in Pakistan, and the bloody part has gone side by side with the opening up markets and stealing resources part....

Have a nice day and keep it real,

TNI Masadi

HP writes "Asadi sahib Answer the questions. There is no need to invoke musharraf baba he was not my phupparr!"

Oh I did in that very post, you just didn't get it because he indeed was your intellectual phupparr (whatever that means).

My post said: "Sounds like you're repeating Musharraf's speech, the kind of foreign capital that has left the country in the shape that we find it in today...."

Whereas your "claim" that land reform hasn't worked in other lands so it cannot work in Pakistan (even though based on mostly manufactured history on your part which you have a tendency of throwing together every now and them...CIA training?) is not as potent compared to mine that capital infusion from foreigners who want to invest to drain the blood of the country, will not work because it has not worked not only in other countries (the trickle down is bs) but has factually not worked in Pakistan.....

Have a nice day, and search your conscience, if you have any left,

TNI Masadi

HP writes "You brought up US for no reason at all. What land reforms have to do with US attack on Iraq?"

Salam and greetings of peace HP sahib, Haal chaal? Baal Bacha?

There was absolutely no side tracking on my part though deliberate obfuscation on yours. You are presenting a solution of "aggressive capitalism" to bypass the so called bloody solution regarding socialism. I was merely showing that capitalism is much more bloodier and not as holy and sacrosanct as you were presenting it.
Regarding solutions you offer more of the same that has not worked in our history of the past 60 years, you make claims and throw out imaginary numbers you know nothing about, all to push what Musharraf has been pushing and that is a nation being enslaved to the "not so high" bidder just because he finances a part of mind you, the Pakistan military. Further, you end the discussion as if my rebuttal of your assertion of the bloody socialism solution was the only point in my various posts...

Have a nice day, and say hi to your CIA buddies from me

TNI Masadi

Beena,

Yet another pathetic attempt to side track the issue.

Answer a simple question, there was a murder, why was no one charged with any crime, why the police did not register the murder as a crime.

Beena, learn it from me, murder is not a crime against the state in pakistan.

Beena, learn it from me, that is because of teh hoodood ordinance, the law of pakistan.

Now tell the readers Beena why neither the supreme court, nor teh sharia court, nor the parliment, nor any president will dare to change the hoodood ordinance.

For once as a jounalist, do not blame anything on Zia, he is dead and gone, any president even mushy who changed so much of pak constituiton did not dare to touch hoodood.

Beena, ple..aase..tell the truth.

Asadi,
My use of the term was generic and was in reference with the land reforms. You brought up US for no reason at all. What land reforms have to do with US attack on Iraq? But land reforms have great reference to socialism because the socialist pioneered the concept of land nationalization and distribution to landless or to the collective farms.

This is not a serious approach and shows your attempt to side track the discussion.

There is no honor in "honor killing"
Topic started by iron_mask on Sep 7, 2008 1:07:03 am

HP was right on the FP to question the the plebs (sorry the sorry-elitist-prigs) on this topic - by asking them rather searching questions with regard to "feudalism" and "land reform".

For a start, by calling such murders, "honor killings" the people are almost justifying these - its like the self-defence argument. We need to understand that no honor is preserved or served by such killings - it is plain criminality, it is the bastardisation of our mental thought process which has led to this situation - where such killings are called "honor killings".

The issue is not one of feudalism or land reform or what ever here. It is our very thinking (at its fundamental level) which needs changing.

Much as I disagree with a lot of Sarah Palin's stances (re:ID and creationism etc), I admire her strength (mental ofcourse) and determination to have a baby who has downs. The fact that she valued life. This is one thing most South Asians need to learn from the Christian west.

I gotta go now, look for some baal bacha so that I can be raazi baazi, you all take care

TNI Masadi

HP writes "Asadi sahib, please keep every thing in Pakistan's context."

Salam and greetings of peace HP sahib, my worthy friend. How goes? Where does one find baal bacha?

Your attack on socialism causing bloodshed was not limited to the pakistan scene why do you want me to limit the capitalism debate to Pakistan.

Thank you kindly for your patience and read some Quran, it does a mind good....

TNI Masadi

"Sounds like you're repeating Musharraf's speech, the kind of foreign capital that has left the country in the shape that we find it in today."

Asadi sahib Answer the questions. There is no need to invoke musharraf baba he was not my phupparr!

" how aggressive capitalism would not help end the feudalism without the kind of bloodshed that would follow the socialist type attacks of feudalism?" HP

"Aggressive capitalism has recently killed over a million in Iraq and its growing pains killed tens of millions during the 2nd WW."

Asadi sahib, please keep every thing in Pakistan's context.

I did not mean the war type of aggression. I meant the fast paced investments and major capital infusion.
Thank you!

later....

HP writes "It is next to impossible to make any industrial progress in Pakistan without encouraging foreign capital and private capital."

Sounds like you're repeating Musharraf's speech, the kind of foreign capital that has left the country in the shape that we find it in today....

TNI Masadi

HP writes "Come out of utopia. It is next to impossible to make any industrial progress in Pakistan without encouraging foreign capital and private capital. You can’t expect god fearing capital to come to invest. Capital is tied with profit no matter how bad you feel about the excessiveness of that."

Sir, my worthy friend, it is not my utopia but your "200 years" that you throw out even though we have examples of equally poor countries adopting the right policies and coming out of both their feudalism, through land reform and properly regulated and protected industry, like Korea. Your "more of the same" foreign investment will keep Pakistan a military state, as per your own contention and it will keep it just at the level of a colonized state as it has the past 60 years of its history. Your medicine is poison for the country.

HP writes "You should always be ready to deal with the CIA too."

Was that a threat that you're going to come visit me again my friend : ) Welcome anytime! Capital might not be god fearing but the state can sure put the fear of God in capital...

Thank you kindly for your time,
TNI Masadi

"Did the CIA contact you for their services?"

Asadi sahib, I retired from the CIA a long time ago.... Don't worry about CIA spoon feeding me now. This paranoia is not good for your health and intellect. You should always be ready to deal with the CIA too.


"that can be done by legislation, cutting the budget of the military, incorporating military business and land and redistribution. Then you will see how many "resources" it comes up with, I have nothing against regulated (non blood sucking private capital), and I say NO to private capital when it involves selling the state to get it"

I can't argue with this kind of information about the economy.

Sir, Pakistan army's budget is paid for from the outside. The amount of yearly payments Pak makes on it to repay some loans will not change the country for another 200 years. I would suggest you to go through the numbers and see for yourself.

Military owned businesses look good in a country where overall industrial investments and ownership is not huge. You take over the Military owned businesses and still you cannot turn Pakistan around in another 200 years.

Come out of utopia. It is next to impossible to make any industrial progress in Pakistan without encouraging foreign capital and private capital. You can’t expect god fearing capital to come to invest. Capital is tied with profit no matter how bad you feel about the excessiveness of that.

In Pakistan you end feudal and feudalism by turning to industrializing the agricultural economy. With the kind of resources we have now, this industrialization is impossible without outside investment.

Please find some baal bacha so that we can pray for them too.

Ahmad Madani writes "It will catastrophe to attack system without other social system which can give some protection.
Most people forget that while sitting in cafes in Karachi Lahore and drinking liquior or cpoffee or tea. That is intelluctual satisfaction but no protection for peasants and famalies."

Salam and greetings of peace madani sahib, haal chaal? tabyat seyhat? raazi baazi?

HP sahib, my worth friend's post is apologetics and legitimation for captialism as the only panacea against feudalism. That is certainly not the case sir. Private capital sucks on the blood of the people, we don't want to replace one bad master with another that is going to make them even more miserable due to its mode of production. Please understand this. Land reform with government help thereafter to make the peasants viable is the first way to go, regulating of industry is the second way to go. Just throwing in capitalism to a feudal structure with mega cities already bursting at the seems is no solution my friend. Thank you kindly for your time and attention. No money is required, thank you

TNI Masadi

Friend Masadi and Mr. T you are both not following what HP said and little distorting.
Now feudalism is social sytem and at this time there is no other system specially present in Rural Sindh.
Fudal lord some protection and safety to landless peasants. Without his protection and financial support poor can not survive. He may not be ideal master but still he has some obligations mentally to these skillless hands. He offers some protection to women folk of peasants. Miscreants keep away and do not play bad evil plans on helpless peasants, hios women and their children. It is his proprty to him and he needs to protect his property.That adds protection for poor people. And because of fear bad people keep away. Not best system but better than no system. If there is new system to replace feudal system then it is preferable than no system. What skillless poor haris can do ?
It will catastrophe to attack system without other social system which can give some protection.
Most people forget that while sitting in cafes in Karachi Lahore and drinking liquior or cpoffee or tea. That is intelluctual satisfaction but no protection for peasants and famalies.
Also Capitalism is more refined system where there are big centers where people work and have huge productivity. Most farming is marginal and not much surplus wealth is produced in Farming.
Hope babus do not destroy system without which atleast give minimal protection.
I think animals even make right choice, a misused dog lives with man as man may be bad but atleast man sees he survuives.
Please understand what HP is saying. That is what I feelo he is saying. He can correct me.
Good day.

HP writes "Aggressive capitalism would not help end the feudalism without the kind of bloodshed that would follow the socialist type attacks of feudalism?"

I almost missed answering this, salam and greetings of peace my worthy friend. Aggressive capitalism has recently killed over a million in Iraq and its growing pains killed tens of millions during the 2nd WW. Socialist reform need not be bloody, they are bloody only when they try to Aggressively capitalize without concern for the people. In other words it is precisely your "solution" that causes the bloodshed, not to mention the fact that capitalism from its start has been inherently bloody, and I would even blame it for the bloodiness in the implemented from on top "communist" programs,

Thank you kindly for your time

TNI Masadi

Btw my worthy friend HP, capitalism and submitting to the status quo and letting the "invisible hand" take care of everything, even thought the elite regulate their affairs to split-hair perfection, is not the way to go and tells us that you are drifting to the wrong side of the equation. Did the CIA contact you for their services?

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

HP writes "where the state does not have the resources to practice state capitalism and dictatorial reforms..."

The state does not have to practice either state capitalism or dictatorial reform, what it does need to do is serve the people, and that can be done by legislation, cutting the budget of the military, incorporating military business and land and redistribution. Then you will see how many "resources" it comes up with, I have nothing against regulated (non blood sucking private capital), and I say NO to private capital when it involves selling the state to get it. Private capital relations have to be changed to trusteeship, where if they transgress it can be expropriated, otherwise private capital leads to self-stupification.

Thank you kindly for your time,
TNI Masadi

HP writes "Lets just forget the White men bogey and talk about how aggressive capitalism would not help end the feudalism without the kind of bloodshed that would follow the socialist type attacks of feudalism?"

Salam and greetings of peace my worthy friend. How is the weather where you are? Thandee hawain chal rahe hain ya nahi?

There is no bogey involved regarding the white man. You know what he has done to the world and is doing even today. Why this turnaround? To appease tahmad sahib?

Regarding feudalism, the natural trajectory in Europe was capitalism doing away with it because it was weakened. from that model we take its weakening through land reform, and set in place a managed economy with the bourgeoisie which in Europe used the peasants for their assault on the feudals, now assist the state in incorporating the bourgeoisie in this march to the future.

Have a nice day, and rest in peace on your bed that is!
TNI Masadi

HP writes "Land Reforms which really end feudal hold of the lands have been a failure every where."

Salam and greetings of peace my worthy friend. How goes this fine night in USA?

Land reforms in "theory" (if power is on your side) are a sure way out of feudalism. That is what "logic" dictates and that is what European history of feudalism has proven as well. Your examples try to link land reform with failure that was caused not by land reforms but by concomitant policies both of the Chinese and the Soviets. If it is implemented half heartedly or is made to fail does not mean that the logical theory of land reform is wrong. If it has not worked in various regions (due to their varying circumstances) does not at all mean that it cannot work in Pakistan. It has a LONG history going back to Roman times, and you sure as hell haven't exhausted all examples in proving that it has not work. Korea, Cuba and Japan are good examples of success.Even land reform in china worked before collectivization, as it would have in the Soviet Union w/o collectivization.

Asadi,

Lets just forget the White men bogey and talk about how aggressive capitalism would not help end the feudalism without the kind of bloodshed that would follow the socialist type attacks of feudalism?

Specifically in the case of Pakistan, where the state does not have the resources to practice state capitalism and dictatorial reforms,how changes can be made in the rural economy without the influx of private capital.

You are against the private capital and then you are against the feudal but you still wanna end the feudalism...tell me how on the earth can you accomplish that?

Asadi, I am not sure if you are serious here or just being contrarian as usual.

“The way the land reform is implemented is what will determine its success or failure, that is what they say but mean not what I mean because of their ulterior motive and that is what I had said.�

This defies logic. So far every example that we have is a failure but then you come up with excuses like the halfhearted efforts. This is completely non-serious. Provide citation where the land distribution succeeded positively as an agent of change in the society. How could anyone ensure that land reforms would be implemented correctly when the results are always 10 -15 years down the line? Most of the land reforms failed in eradicating feudalism. Where extreme measures were taken such as Russia and China and a few other places, the upheaval in the society lasted for a very long time.

Instead of generalizing, be specific and tell us how feudalism in Pakistan can be eliminated. Don’t just avoid the real subject under the pure garbage that you are writing such as halfhearted and how the reforms are implemented!

Land Reforms which really end feudal hold of the lands have been a failure every where. There are some limited success in Land reforms where the agrarian society was already in major decline due to wars. But those successes are not the answer for the problem in Pakistan.

Tahmed Land reforms in India has lots of material available on the net so there is no point in discussing that here. Here are two extracts for reference.

The major contributor to success in Indian Punjab was free electricity for agricultural needs and that led to abundance of water supply via the tube wells.

“indicate that inequalities have increased, rather than decreased.
The number of landless labor has gone up and the top ten percent
monopolizes more land now than in 1951. Meanwhile, the issue of land
reforms has over the years, either unconsciously faded from public
mind or deliberately been glossed over. Vested interests of the
landed elite and their powerful nexus with the political-bureaucratic
system have blocked meaningful land reforms and /or their earnest
implementation. The oppressed have either been co-opted with some
benefits, or further subjugated as the new focus on LPG has altered
government priorities and public perceptions. As a result, we are
today at a juncture where land, mostly for the urban, educated elite,
and who also happens to be the powerful decision-maker, has become
more a matter for housing, investment and infra-structure building.
In the bargain, the existence of land as a basis of livelihood -- for
subsistence, survival, social justice and human dignity has largely
been lost.�

“Rural land problems in India have not gone unnoticed. In the decades following Independence, many Indian states passed land reform laws aimed at broadening access to rural land. But these efforts—except for a few notable successes—were poorly designed and implemented. Measures aimed at taking significant land from larger landowners (with very little compensation) and strictly regulating the landlord-tenant relationship were difficult to administer and aroused strong opposition. They provided little relief to the rural poor and women and, in many cases, led to perverse results that stymied land access and rights for the poor. Until recently, these failures caused Indian policy-makers to conclude that land reform was not an answer to problems plaguing India's countryside.�

In addition, the white man does not want roti kapra and makan for the toiling "Third World" folk, he wants to suck their blood, and comparing the US with Latin America that was raped by the US, that grew its economy on the back of unpaid labor of the Africans whom it had converted to slaves by deceit, is disingenuous.

Ahmad sahib, have some shame, and have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

tahmed writes "
ZAB reneged in his promise of "roti, kapra, makan" by refusing to do land reforms"

He did not, you mean to tell me his power base in the rural areas in many cases controlled by the feudals would have just sat by and let him do it when the army and the bourgeoisie were already after his blood. The reality dictated that he maneuver slowly and he was indeed doing that but being boxed in from all sides....Why make land reform a populist agenda at all if he was not interested in implementing it. No the reality is more complex, only white man rules like King while talking about democracy, the people's leaders have to undo a structure first and that requires slow moving or hanging, and we know what occurred in ZAB's case

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

HP #50 I think you are mistaken on the results of land reforms in India - before partition, w. panjab was more productive than e. panjab. That situation held until there were land reforms in indian panjab (6 hectares max). That, plus good extension service schemes, led indian panjab to take the lead.

so it is incorrect to say that land reforms dont work.

also, if you look at the economic history of the US vs latin america, you will see that initially the two were at par economically. the US then moved forward after the mid 19th century due to small family farms in the US vs Hacienda economies (feudal estates) of s. america.

ZAB reneged in his promise of "roti, kapra, makan" by refusing to do land reforms (and an adviser he had brought in from abroad and who wanted to see land reforms take place resigned his job with ZAB as a result).

Rural sindh is not going to see improved conditions for the average sindhi unless land reforms are held. Dont look to zardari to have them though.

Hamid writes "the only cure for feudalism is capitalism which, in my simple mind, is that fairest system of all -"

Capitalism cannot and will not arise till feudalism is strong. Only when it became progressively weak in Europe did the bourgeoisie assault on the feudals yield any results.. There is nothing fair about capitalism which from the very start has walked side by side with racial prejudice and keeping the colored man/woman down and behind...

Thank you kindly for your time.

TNI Masadi

Hamid writes "the only cure for feudalism is capitalism which, in my simple mind, is that fairest system of all -"

Capitalism cannot and will not arise until feudalism is strong. Only when it became progressively weak in Europe did the bourgeoisie assault on the feudals yield any results.. There is nothing fair about capitalism which from the very start has walked side by side with racial prejudice and keeping the colored man/woman down and behind...

Thank you kindly for your time.

TNI Masadi

HP writes "I wrote that late last night and I did not have a chance to research it but cfr article mostly supports my conclusions and not yours."

HP sahib, salaam and greetings of peace to you my worthy friend. How goes this fine saturday in USA? Haal chaal? Roti chai pani? Tabiyat sehat.

Actually I wrote my response to you before I located that CFR article and I read it just to find out what the sophisticated conservatives who want to preserve the capitalist system at all cost were saying about it, and lo and behold they agree with my post and definitely not yours. The way the land reform is implemented is what will determine its success or failure, that is what they say but mean not what I mean because of their ulterior motive and that is what I had said. You on the other hand were using a very illogical conclusion saying in a very generalizing way that it has NEVER succeeded in the world and therefore is not feasible. That is a very unscientific and feudal apologetic stance to take. Even your comments show bias, read this :"The initial communist idea was to take over the land and distribute that amongst the landless. Soon they realized their folly and tried to bring the land control under the government and hired peasants to work in the collective farms."

So you assumed it was a folly before any results came through. The Soviets didn't realize their "folly" they thought that petty bourgeoisie would arise out of private ownership of land which would be a detriment to their so-called communist structure. That was no "folly" of land reforms my friend.....

You take it easy, and think clear about people's rights and freedom not American bs.

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

http://cruiserdeep.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/ift-sept-2008.pdf

HP, though you bring an interesting perspective but what do you say on this:
1. If there were problems in land reforms elsewhere, does that mean that the land reforms have no value AT ALL?
2. Is the lesson from those experiences is that let the feudal lords keep the progress a hostage?
3. How otherwise we can move forward? (Even for the growth of Capitalism, landlords' grip has to be loosened. It happened naturally (intrinsically) in the West. It cannot happen that way in the East anymore.)
4. What is the road to progress otherwise - even to capitalism?

The political philosophers and economists have to come up with solutions. We cannot just say that it is of no use.

HP, well I was just commenting that it's a little unfair to talk about the failure of land reforms only with respect to USSR and China. A better example would be land reforms in Japan and Korea carried out by Gen. MacArthur after WWII. They are supposed to have been quite successful and drastically changed the land ownership patterns. But I really doubt that these conditions could be reproduced for Pakistan today and probably land reform through tax reform is a better approach.

hp,

.... you know that i am a simple minded guy and not much for high falutin discussions, so please bear with me and forgive me if my solution sounds simple minded.....

.... the only cure for feudalism is capitalism which, in my simple mind, is that fairest system of all - it took mankind thousands of years to stumble on it ......

“show me how they would end feudalism in Pakistan and what plans they have to deal with the ensuing unrest and the social upheaval that would follow the land taken over by the state.�- HP

Rabia and Asadi- You have not answered my question above. The CFR article that Asadi quoted pretty much confirms my narrative of the events. Veng I think does not even understand the poverty in the Indian village is mostly due to fragmentation of lands, and peasants not owning enough lands to sustain them economically. These are generally the results of thoughtless land reforms of limiting the holdings to a smaller number. Thus resulting in the further fragmentation in the next generation and leaving not enough cultivable area for a family. Only the Fruit farms and Mango orchard owners were points of success in the Indian land reforms. Currently only 23% own most of the arable land in India. (I have not researched this 23% part. just from the memory)

Asadi where is my apology to feudal? I am raising a legit question as to how you are going to end feudalism based on the facts that I showed and the CFR article endorsed from the historical data available from many countries. I wrote that late last night and I did not have a chance to research it but cfr article mostly supports my conclusions and not yours.

“Feudalism was successively weakened in Europe and then finally crushed with various revolutions, which are not so different than a revolution through legislation. In Russia it ended in 1917 through a revolution. Criticizing its effects because those that took on the reform did so halfheartedly is no defense.�

Actually both statements above are factually incorrect.
The five principal Feudal European countries, England, Germany, France, Italy, and Spain never went through any land reforms. There are still I believe no limits on land holdings there.

Feudalism disappeared from only France and Germany due to the first and the second ww. In France, the social upheavals after several failed adventure to conquer colonies resulted in political loss of power for feudal. Germany as we know was conquered twice and was under immense political and economic trauma for almost the first fifty years of the 20th century and that resulted in the elimination of big land holding and not some government actions.

England, Spain, and Italy still have large landowners though they are not feudal due to the nature of the civil laws in these countries.

Blaming the halfhearted ideologues in Russia is just ridiculous when in Pakistan we expect people with no ideology at all to end the feudalism.

#48 rabiawsti writes "I dont think it makes sense to associate the success or failure of land reforms in general with that of Soviet collectivization"

True, they are both different ends of the spectrum, one converts the state into a mega feudal lord (collectivization), the other distributes land, small farms among the peasant farmers and breaks up feudal estates that suck on the blood of the people. That is what made the manufactured case against land reforms in #42 so nincompoopish.

Thank you for your time and kind attention,
TNI Masadi

#42
well, land reforms predated the Russian Revolution, and Stolypin's land reforms during Nicholas II's times were considered to be quite effective. I don't think it makes sense to associate the success or failure of land reforms in general with that of Soviet collectivization

Venga writes "HP, this is unexpected nincompoop from you"

TNI agrees, very unexpected and sadly nincompoopish....

Have a nice day

TNI Masadi

Here is an article on land reform by the CIAs well loved Council on Foreign Relations. As you will note even this conservative think tank gives a higher grade to land reforms that HP sahib will allow..

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9475/land_reform_revisited.html

HP writes "were large feudal states and moved from the feudal economy to industrialization through a long process that included some colonialism and exploitation of countries outside of Europe. But never by taking over lands and abolishing feudalism by decrees..."

Salam and greetings of peace HP sahib. Raazi Baazi?
Why are you becoming an apologist for the feudals now? It is hard to understand you at times. Feudalism was successively weakened in Europe and then finally crushed with various revolutions, which are not so different than a revolution through legislation. In Russia it ended in 1917 through a revolution. Criticizing its effects because those that took on the reform did so halfheartedly is no defense. What happened to the freed slaves after emancipation in the US was bad too, but that doesn't mean emancipation was a failure so slavery should have continued. If the feudal tyrants who have been stripped of their illegal land ensure afterwards that the peasants to whom the land is give fail and the state just leaves them alone after distribution without initial help with input and what not, then of course the results will be bad. Leaving feudalism to its natural process in countries like Pakistan where the bourgeoisie are weakened by being part of a subordinate system will ensure that it continues indefinitely. We definitely need legislation to undertake land reform and first of all to break the feudal army and take its land away from it.

HP sahib, very disappointing post from you which plays fast and loose with history, you have a keen creative insight in manufacturing it like the CIA. Do you or did you ever work for them?

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

And Zamindars exploited the poor labours to the hilt...

"Within a generation, a thriving countryside in these states turned in to a cesspool of poverty. Hordes of people left small villages and created major social and economic issues/crises in the Indian cities. Studies would prove that more Indian villagers were forced to leave their villages from 1960 to 1990 than any time in the Indian History."

HP, this is unexpected nincompoop from you. Urbanisation happened for two reasons:

1. Agriculture failure due to failed monsoons
2. Thriving business/opportunity in urban centers

You just cant buy now whatever you bought out of selling 1kg of rice 20 years back. Prices of agriculture produce has not appreciated because of the governments price control efforts. More to write but gtg...

I often see posts from people on this and many other Pakistani sites that feudalism and tribalism are the source of problems in Pakistan. The demand always is to abolish feudalism and miraculously all social and cultural problems will be resolved.

Okay, fine feudalism is bad but how do you end it?
Mostly the solution is to take away lands from the feudal and distribute to the landless peasants. Appears to be a very noble gesture and a good solution, I totally endorse that. The problem is that taking over lands and distributing to the landless peasants has never been successful in any country in the world. Most of the present day industrialized nations in Europe, were large feudal states and moved from the feudal economy to industrialization through a long process that included some colonialism and exploitation of countries outside of Europe. But never by taking over lands and abolishing feudalism by decrees.

The Russians were the first to introduce this unique scheme for pseudo economic and social progress--which to this date our friends think would end social evils in the country-- after the communist revolution in 1917. The Communists just did not know what they were getting into. The first purpose of their land Nationalization was to destroy the political opposition as most of the land owners were czarist. So, the Russian land nationalization had more political than economic or social motives. Well, the announcement plunged Russia in to a bitter civil war. In fact, this one act of extreme political and economic stupidity started the later plunge of Russia into the bureaucratic control under Stalin and the socialist dream died within years of its birth.

The initial communist idea was to take over the land and distribute that amongst the landless. Soon they realized their folly and tried to bring the land control under the government and hired peasants to work in the collective farms. That too proved to be a fatal error. The agriculture produced dropped and the country for more than ten years just lived of potatoes that people were mostly growing in their backyards. The ensuing civil war lasted for over 20 years and millions of Russians died. The 2nd WW helped end the civil war but not before millions had died, the countryside was totally destroyed and the millions were butchered and some more millions were sent to Gulags and Siberia! Some people ought to read books or at least one book by Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago to really figure out the horrors of the society shaken by the stupid actions of a few.

Chinese revolution was actually a peasant revolution and they understood how the mechanism worked. By the time Mao and the CPC took over, China was already devastated by 2nd ww and the civil war. The agrarian economy was already destroyed and most of the feudal had died at the hands of the revolutionaries or Japanese and some just left their lands to save their lives. Still the Chinese land reformed managed by the peasants themselves, wrought havoc in the countryside.

Land distribution and collective farms both failed and Chinese suffered one famine after another from 1949 to almost the 1980s. The system finally begun to stabilize when the country started to switch to mechanized farming, forced birth control in rural areas and later a limited ownership of lands transferred to the peasant. China also made some smart moves in opening up its economy to attract foreign capital and reduce the dependence on agriculture.

I would mention one more country before I finish and ask learned posters to show me how they would end feudalism in Pakistan and what plans they have to deal with the ensuing unrest and the social upheaval that would follow the land taken over by the state.

Congress supported land reforms in India and after years of struggling with the political opposition, finally managed to destroy big landowners and feudalism in some Indian states, such as Bihar, UP, and AP. These reforms completed in 1960, when the upper limit for land holding was reduced to approx 200 acres maximum and that too for the fruit orchards. Within a generation, a thriving countryside in these states turned in to a cesspool of poverty. Hordes of people left small villages and created major social and economic issues/crises in the Indian cities. Studies would prove that more Indian villagers were forced to leave their villages from 1960 to 1990 than any time in the Indian History.

The three Indian provinces that I mentioned are still the basket case of the Indian economy. AP has made some progress due to IT industry recently.


That is all I have to say on this issue and I hope people will respond to my questions after their blistering attacks on feudal and feudalism has left me speechless!

Re: # 35
nb...
Laws are quite OK in India. Problem is implementation is very slack.

Re: # 39 by quin
You highlight a very important factor that is a major contributor to prevalence of such culture and traditionalism.

Feudalism in all forms as existing in Pakistan is one of the biggest curses which was never dealt with by any govt. throughout the history of this nation, like you mention instead it has always been promoted and provided safe-heaven and definitely the beneficiaries have been the ruling few since they did not need to worry about controlling the masses in entireity and through the feudal lords in whom they confide the powers to control masses at the root level are assigned to these feudal lords who are free to use and abuse masses under their control.

The feudal lords come with many titles, the Nawabs, Sardars,Gaddi Nasheens, Murshids, Peers, Waderas, Chaudries and many more while they treat masses in a manner alike slavery and go to the extent of micro-managing their complete living systems like domestic affairs, marital affairs and even in matters of seeking education.

No one ever asked where these lords got their unlimited rights over the masses they assume to be ruling and micro-managing but it is quite evident that by allowing this system to work those who rule Pakistan have an easier time since they don't have to worry to listen to or provide for the masses ruled by the feudal lords instead the rulers are able to conduct themselves much easily by consolidation of masses under smaller controlled groups and the feudal while reaping the benefits rightfully belonging to masses submit to the rulers as if they are collective bargainers.

Now these less than humans like Zehri are even insisting to legitimize their shameless and heinous acts in the name of culture and traditions and admonishing the Parliament & Senate to stay out of these matters and "not create a fuss about these affairs! such characters should be brought to justice and eliminated altogether for their corrupt mindset.

Honour killings and women treated as cattle has not much to do with politics (even if a politician is involved) or with religion (even if mullahs are involved in that). It has more to do with the society as whole and culture of that society.
Ours is a deeply feudal society which has not been able to get itself free from the shackles of values of a medieval mindset. Even the people living in cities or educated in universities belonging to our society display one form or other of that mindset.
The elite of military and industry all basically comes from a deeply feudal background and culture. Ancient feudal values are ingrained in their genes. This clutching hold of feudal values is everywhere with different intensities. In cities and even so called liberated classes, it is in a different form. That can be observed for example the way some interacts happen here on Chowk.
But of course, in the real backward rural areas, its atrocious grip is deadly. This hold has never been broken because - because the backbone of feudal lords has never been broken by any government in Pakistan.
All these bastard feudal lords have been supported by consecutive military regimes as well as so called civilian governments – no government abolished feudal system – rather allowed it to prosper. So the culture of brutality and humiliation of masses, at the peril of Pakistan’s stability and welfare flourished. On top of that, religion has been used to justify or defend such gender based atrocities.
For Pakistan to move forward the first and fundamental step to take is to abolish feudalism - to put limit to how much land one can hold. This is not an old socialistic idea – every sensible nation in modern times knows importance of this fundamental step for progress. Only this step can release the energy of 80% or so rural population of Pakistan. Only this step will eliminate that power which hold people hostage to ancient traditions. That fundamental step will start the process of fundamental change. No one talks about this important principle.
These incidents remind us to look deeply into the root cause of our problems. We must examine and analyze things to get at the root cause of these things. We must spread education, spread ideas which are useful and informative and talk about possible solutions at same time we talk about the problems and the reasons for the problems. We may differ but we must have debates and dialogues about solutions as well as problems.
Hail to the writers who bring up such important topics for information and discussion. Hail Beena Sarwar.

HP I agree that balochis for the most part are not generally religious radicals but religion is not the only reason for crimes against women. Tradition is equally to blame as in this case.

What is a FACT is that this heinous crime took place and some kutta called israr zehri standing for the BNP stood up in the senate and DEFENDED IT.

Whatever you may think of the political struggle of the baloch people this is not propaganda its a real problem and has to be acknowledged. Lets not be ostriches.

I am a little shocked and pleased that the NWFP assembly (not known for open mindedness) condemened israr strongly and called him mentally ill.

Re: # 23
HP mian, these so-called fundamentalists use one and only thing in their defense when interrogated, tradition camouflaged by "their" understanding of faith.

Please don't comment on things you don't know anything about.There is no religious involvement in this case and what you wrote is just ridiculous.

I wont call your understanding of my comments ridiculous not knowing how much you yourself know about these traditions, but my understanding is about what I know, killing or taking a human life "for any reason" specially such as understood from the given story is nothing more than inhuman while there are those who commit these acts and consider it to be fulfillment of their faith based understanding, which may or may not be related to this particular case.

Mullah is nobody in the Baloch life. In Balochistan, you will rarely find mosques or Mullah using loudspeakers to spew his non-sense. This hooliganism of building mosques in every galli and mohalla was brought to Pakistan from India after 1947.
Mosques and fundamentalism is not part of Sindhi, Balochi or even Punjabi culture. So please keep your posts to the issue and do not bring in your own prejudices in this matter.
The Balochistan I know always had Muslims and Masjids, similarly it goes for all other regions that you have mentioned, the word Mullah in my humble understanding represents those who aspire to take up religious leadership on their own while lacking the proper knowledge.

In case where readers of comments do not agree with what another has to say, those who are in their proper senses discuss the matter and refrain from personal attacks on others, however one chooses to comment merely reflects on the description of their own personality measuring which in this instance measures quite low, while your "hatred" against others is quite obvious based on your writing.

Talk about hooliganism, it drips from every word in your comments, which is not very impressive, while it fails to suppress when and what I have to say in terms of opinion and I don't find it necessary to for an HP to validate my statement of opinion.

#35

Is ther eany law FOR protection of men .We condenm honor kiling like murder ,rape, domestic violence etc etc.Men are automatically considered as perpetrator or strong by themselves .Its fact there are men weaker than women & also vulnerable to be kiled abused under threat of in laws or laws .Men are never seen as victim and i am saying here although its not the topic but we seldom protect men only women

I am not twisting words. I am pointing out that he doesn't disagree with this; talking about his problems with India's dowry and divorce laws, both of which, btw, are still underutilised by still-suppressed women, is inappropriate for this board.

Oh, and parthaab, your views on the Aarushi murder also denigrate two men: the father who blames himself for being unable to save his daughter and was accused wrongly of her murder, and the domestic worker who seems to have been killed by Aarushi's murderers for trying to protect a young girl he apparently loved as a father. So before trying to fit everything into your narrow line of thought, think again.

Re: # 32; nb

Parthab bhai was actually writing against and not for ... as far as my understanding goes

please stop twisting words ... his and mine

akcheema, parthaab, does either of you think honour killings are acceptable?

Re: # 30; parthab bhai

I am beginning to come around fast to your point of view ... I think it has enough merit to be discussed with a level of openness that we extend towards our female counterparts from time to time

Re: # 29

nb, You are a woman - so your reaction does make sense.

My principle is - when you see an injustice, never let it pass - ESPECIALLY if it has the potential to be done to another. As a woman though, I do not know if such advice is applicable to you.

Parthaab, please go and do your rona dhona somewhere else. thanks!

Israel :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Israel_in_a_fix_over_killer_mother s/art icleshow/3441905.cms

America :

Fight with boyfriend - Woman COOKS baby alive!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/29/microwave.baby.ap/index.html

Re: # 24

Females, almost by instinct, blame their husbands for any of their troubles. To such an extent, that feminists in India have brought in draconian anti-male legislation, through which females wield enormous powers to extort money from their husbands.

All I was saying, is that in this context, I would be happy if the females looked at their OWN family/father, who would nt give them their due in family inheritance, and would kill their lovers/husband at a moments notice. I am NOT defending any kind of killing.

Unmarried people here might not know it, but whenever there is a problem in the family, the wife usually turns to her father and HE in turn, usually does all he can to intimidate the son-in-law and destroy his family. Male stereotypes help in the social and media ostracisation. Financial extortion is the name of the game, and goes by other names, including 'alimony'. It would be a change for the better, therefore, if the females looked within their own family, and asked themselves if they were really that trustworthy to be trusted with domestic problems.

In all the examples I have quoted, it was not the wife, but her husband who needs police or legal protection - from the wifes father!

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20080903/812/tnl-more-than-dowry-property-laws-m ake-g.html

In a significant study, that brings out the true relevance of dowry in India today, the CSR has found that female foeticide is related to property inheritance, rather than dowry.

Dowry itself, is a form of female inheritance in India, but has been unfairly blamed on the son-in-law. The anti-male laws, called 'anti-dowry' laws, are misused, when there is a discord in the family, and the draconian features of
these laws, destroys the family quickly. Lawyers and judges are clearly not interested in genuine or cheap resolution of 'divorce cases', and divorce comes after a long time and price for the harassed husband - all in the name of 'dowry
harassment'!

Unlike studies sponsored by feminist NGOs, to show males in poor light ( such as the recent one suggesting that divorces are due to 'male genes'), this CSR study thrashes the feminist propaganda that dowry is responsible for mothers killing their female children, and finds the real reason for the existence of dowry elsewhere - in the unwillingness of the girls parents to share their property
equitably.

Since males rights is a bad word in India, while womens welfare is not, MALE AWARENESS of these issues is a huge problem, particularly among the unmarried, and needs to be CREATED.

#22 Posted by HP,

Thanks for placing this whole matter in the correct perspective, instead of the madness being spewed by these ignoramuses.

Re the Dr. Shazia Rape Case which you have mentioned, I had asked the (then) Director Finance (now the MD) of Pakistan Petroleum who's a close friend as to what's the true story. PPL owns the Sui Gas fields on which the rape is alleged to have been committed.

He had simply said "Yeh bohat lamba chakkar hai". You would know what he meant of-course.

Phosha #16, you and parthaab make a fine couple.

Re: # 6
Partha-babu....
These are mere exceptions. In most part of India, female literacy rate and cash earning, work force participation is quite low. So, the womenfolk in society are generaly vulnerable. I request you, not to draw conclusion based on one or two observations and seeing, what is happening in Kolkata/Durgapur/Mumbai etc...The issue is something definitely serious.

"Another sad chapter scripted by the ignorant so-called fundamentalists who in their hollow minds assume they did something good by killing those who wanted to exercise their God given right to chose their life-mate."

MatloobZaman,

Please don't comment on things you don't know anything about.There is no religious involvement in this case and what you wrote is just ridiculous.

Mullah is nobody in the Baloch life. In Balochistan, you will rarely find mosques or Mullah using loudspeakers to spew his non-sense. This hooliganism of building mosques in every galli and mohalla was brought to Pakistan from India after 1947.

Mosques and fundamentalism is not part of Sindhi, Balochi or even Punjabi culture. So please keep your posts to the issue and do not bring in your own prejudices in this matter.

While agreeing with Beena and there are no words strong enough to condemn Mr. Zehri’s statements in the Senate, I would also point out that it seems that case is unraveling. From five women shot, and buried alive to we have come down to two women. We also see weird stories that women were hit with a blunt object to now sticks and stones.

It will take a little while to get to the bottom of the whole story but let’s just first look over some realities in Baluchistan.

I am not going to say that men and women are not murdered in Balochistan but for every one woman perhaps 100 men die first. How many reports do we see of women being killed in Balochistan in the national or in the local media? While stories of Kara-kari are common place from Sindh and different parts of Pakistan, we almost never hear these stories emanating from Balochistan.

The Baloch never at any time in history followed the mainstream sunni or shia Islam. Baloch follow a branch of mysticism that is influenced by Persian Sufism and Buddhist culture so whatever the truth we find in the story, this thing is not related to Islam in any way.

Allegiance to the tribe takes precedent over ethnicity, flag and religion for Baloch. Things are changing though and many Baloch who have had some education and are politically active prefer to be called Marxist and atheist.

Whatever we say about the Baloch traditions and tribal culture in Balochistan, burying women alive is not a Baloch custom at all.

I have serious doubts about the story that these poor women had chosen to marry of their own or wanted to marry outside of the tribe. The way the segregation in the tribal cultures works, it is next to impossible for a woman to find her soul mate all by herself and out side the tribe. Yes, poor Baloch women work in the fields but young and unmarried girls are rarely allowed to help out in the fields. And even when they work outside, they are mostly working with people of their own tribe and not with outsiders.

Honor in the tribal societies is a fact of life and a cause of many murders but in Balochistan the honor killings are not about women, they are about men. A Baloch will defend his honor. Baloch also know that another Baloch would never disgrace women no matter how outrageous the tribal rivalry is. So chances are we will find men murdered for honor rather than the women.

I hope readers would understand the cultural issues and also that there are some aspects of this case that cannot and will not stand media scrutiny.

Whenever the Baloch nationalist movement picks up steam, we see some incident in the media to malign the Baloch and undermine their political struggle in Pakistan. Couple of years ago, when the Pak army was busy fighting the Bugti tribe and Sardar Bugti over the Gas royalties, a case of rape in Dera Bugti suddenly made the headlines and behind those headlines, the army multiplied its forces in the area. Thanks to the newly awakened Pakistan media then, the story quickly turned against the army itself when the media discovered that there was actually some hanky-panky and the involvement of one army officer was established. That army officer was never brought to any trial.

Israr Zehri has a history of supporting the federal government in the area. In fact, the patriarch of this tribe Sardar Nabi Bux Zehri used to be the biggest government supporter and held pretty much all the marble mining rights in Balochistan.

I hope the media follows through and digs for more details. Like the prior incident, media may find some hidden hands in this matter too.

Another sad chapter scripted by the ignorant so-called fundamentalists who in their hollow minds assume they did something good by killing those who wanted to exercise their God given right to chose their life-mate.

What fundamentals and whose fundamentals do they follow?

Imposing a spouse on someone is not what the religion is about, and when the time is right one should seek to indulge in an appropriate relationship of their choice.

No doubt the parents in most cases specially when they are learned enough are able to carry on this as an "assisted marriage" instead of an "arranged i.e. imposed marriage".

Its no hidden fact that the mullahs who pretend to be gazing down are one of the class who are blessed with more than one wives while they peep through their long beards for the next one on line, but when it comes time to counsel those who approach them to seek scholarly advice under such conditions, such people are always blessed with the screwed up opinions concerning how to stop a child from seeking a spouse of their choice and declaring the choice of spouse as an illegal even a corrupt action!

It is mullahs too who brainwash ill-educated masses with such concepts that the parents have the entire authority over who they can or cannot be married to, it is also mullahs who provoke such unfortunate events by ill-advising the illiterate parents as to what the religion says about exercising their rights and how to frame up and portray innocent ones to have committed the worlds biggest crime by seeking a life mate, by visiting one or being seen meeting one, that is ultimate for these mullahs to encourage the illiterate by prescribing death penalty for those who merely met the person and no more.

Back to the future we return with the existence of this mullah culture and their followers, who readily pretend and assume the worst without having witnessed even a fraction of a crime they blame on someone and execute them cruelly.

Where all these who dramatize the situations and execute innocent individuals will be situated in the day of judgment and how will they defend their heinous crimes?

Its hightime that the rulers of the nation places a chastity belt over the faces and mouths of all these misguiding mullahs without any relief, as well as those parliamentarians who defend such crimes and telling their colleagues to hush and not fuss about the so-called traditions, they certainly deserve to be treated like the tradition they talk about.

‘Buried alive’ women were hit by blunt instruments - http://www.dawn.com/2008/09/04/top7.htm - the bodies of two victims have been found & exhumed. Apparently they were already dead when buried, and also they were not shot but hit with stones and sticks. But as stated in my article, these are details in the larger picture.

Parthaab, stop making allegations about Aarushi's father now. How dare you say this about a man who has had all charges dropped against him, and how dare you continue to imply that Aarushi's killing was an honour crime. Try and stay out of things instead of going on like a stuck record.
Chowk editors, kindly note, this is character assassination of a murder victim and her father.

I don't care if my gentle hindu friends call us names on this...instead of pointing to others, we need to look to accept this with humility. As a people, our inaction in honor killings makes us all complicit in the actions of the few.
with much respect,
thinking storm

People are killing their daughters and giving it a honour killing name,No its IGNORANCE,ITS 2008,men and women have feedom to choose their partners. today all over the world Pakistan is known as a country of terrorists and ignorant people, cold blooded and barbaric honor killing of five innocent women in Balochistan is another black spot on nation’s character,NOT ONLY THAT,these bunch of idiots and ignorant people make it Islamic thing,as afew weeks ago this pakistani guy killed his daughter in US state of GEORGIA,because his daughter was asking for divorce from her husband,father killed her and told the court that it is against islamic teachings to get divorce,the problem is Pakistanis are brain washed by fanatic mullahs who does not know anything about Islam.
Mwaqar

Re: # 5
Partha-babu
Rizwan's case is different. Any father of stature Ashok Todi will not see his daughter at the hands of dirt poor, cheat. He had money and can not punish his daughter. So, the poor chap had to secrifice."

So why should not Dirt Poor women /girl be deal the same way as Rizwan was dealt that is killed

Why should not powerfull rich let his son marry a gold digger 'neeche aurat'for 'phasaoing his blessed son .Why the standards are different for equally 'exploited' men as bleeding hard only for fairer sex .Men die silenly of stress high B.P. Heart not reporatable as death caused by demanding women

Only those familiar with the cae of Rizwan quoted by NKG need comment

Oh, allow me, you ignorant religious nutcase (re #14) …

Such issues should be the focus of the ummah … which is too busy chasing Ahmadis out of mosques and looking for apostates to kill on a Friday afternoon. And you zee MiaN, are in bed with these nutcases.

There really was no need to bring up religion here, you know … but you just couldn't help taking a cheap shot ...

As long as you don't drag religion into it, you ignorant socialite NGO type, I'm fine with what you say.

Leadenwinter writes "We employed Mr. Haseeb-Ur-Rehman in the capacity of Temporary Legal Consultant upon recommendation by associates..."

Arjun mian, why don't you employ your bot skills and find for us who this person is and where he is employed. This person who is a front for the Pakistan Army criminals must be exposed...

Thank you for your itme

Leadenwinter Amry apologist writes "The only "crime" any General has committed is not letting the Pakistani civilian leadership and the "democratic community" (read prostitutes) steal money for a decade or so. Anything else which the public objects to.. they only do so in their illiteracy and fundamentalism"

To Leadenwinter, the Generals of the Pakistan Army are like angels who descend from on top to guide the nation, being free of any corruption. The condition they have left the nation in after another bout of their direct rule reveals otherwise. It reveals nearly a decade of incompetence and lost development that has put us on the bottom of the world of nations in almost every social indicator of worth. The petty "corruption" of the civilians that he uses as smokescreen to hide the crimes of the generals reveals total incompetence in assessing a social structure. In a structure where the military is the dominant institution and its deliberate and oft interference in the state has turned it into a rudimentary predatory institution, you expect such corruption, but its blame lies directly with the generals of the Pakistan Army and their interference in state affairs, even then their own corruption where they have captured not only a few billion here or there but a substantial portion of the country's economy, wholesale, not to mention its land, and the fact that they have destroyed all institutions of civil society and show complete contempt for the people of this country (like leadenwinter) tells me that they should be de-wardified and hung, the whole lot of them for crimes against humanity....

Leadenwinter, your cheap-shot regarding me making money is a pathetic attempt at absolving the barbarians you worship. I have not made a red cent from any government source, other than being underpaid for teaching 4 classes at below market rate....

In #10 Ignore Mr. Haseeb-Ur-Rehman's letter of reference. :)

To whom it may concern,

We employed Mr. Haseeb-Ur-Rehman in the capacity of Temporary Legal Consultant upon recommendation by associates. He worked with us for the period of four weeks earlier this year. He proved to be diligent and hard working often putting in extra hours of his own accord and provided solid advice and guidance invaluable to our concerns. Haseeb also produced documents and drafted letters for our use. He is friendly, of good character and a pleasure to work with.

There'll be another martial law soon enough.. . The World's political climate is far to dangerous these days to let monkeys play parliamentary democracy for very long and its either that or the nation of Pakistan come November.

The only "crime" any General has committed is not letting the Pakistani civilian leadership and the "democratic community" (read prostitutes) steal money for a decade or so. Anything else which the public objects to.. they only do so in their illiteracy and fundamentalism.

Enjoy your democracy .. and Masadi :) .. you should steal as much as you can now.. you wont get a chance later.. maybe you can invite me to dinner.

"Change in Pakistan, as in every other case in history can only come from above. "

Change like punishing rogue generals for their crimes? And change coming from above like a hangman's noose descending from above on your hero Musharraf? The punishment for his multiple crimes that he escaped thanks to Zardari.

"What many found astounding was that Saima’s parents were not some illiterate people from a remote tribal area, but educated, influential, city dwellers. The father was a businessman who had headed the Peshawar Chamber of Commerce and Industry while the mother was a gynaecologist"..

All this goes to prove is that the so called educated city dwellers are in fact totally illiterate for all intents and purposes. From here a benchmark of the general standard of the Pakistani public can be drawn. Change cannot and will not come from the people as this American pro-democracy wet dream inflicted on us, would have us believe. Change in Pakistan, as in every other case in history can only come from above.

Male dominated cultures and religions can NOT perform any better, they can, however, get a lot worse.

It is frustrating how all the emphases is on the news that these helpless women were 'buried alive'. Those innocents were murdered. Period.

Re: # 4

"Special law is required to protect women..."

Well, in the BELOW cases that I just described, special laws may be required definitely for young SONS-IN-LAW for their safety from their fathers-in-law.

What makes YOU think that MALE lives alone are expendable? Dont they have fathers and mothers who care about them too?

Partha-babu
Rizwan's case is different. Any father of stature Ashok Todi will not see his daughter at the hands of dirt poor, cheat. He had money and can not punish his daughter. So, the poor chap had to secrifice.

Re: # 3
Partha...
Partha-babu
Special law is required to protect women, when society is not treating them properly. You may not see attrocities against women in your place, but cow belt and Pakistan etc. are totaly different place. Sitting in Kolkata, it is better to stop commenting about something in Pakistan.

As Rizwan's and Chiranjeevi's daughter's cases have showed, the Indian girl enjoys a very strange and perplexing relation with the father, who is just as willing to kill her, as he could be against any 'son-in-law' whom he does not like, as the recent Aarushis murder case has proven.

Here are a few links where the girls father has been involved against his son-in-law :


http://www.deccan.com/chennaichronicle/City/Citynews.asp#Man%20held%20for%20ki lling%20sister’s%20lover http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Actor_beau_kill_production_house_head/a rticleshow/3061001.cms http://telegraphindia.com/1080604/jsp/nation/story_9362690.jsp http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Man_beaten_to_death_by_lovers_dad/artic leshow/3139100.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bangalore/Dowry_demand_costs_man_dear/article show/3139492.cms

Only yesterday, a 30 year old coolie in a village, Bodi, Tamil Nadu, was lynched to DEATH by his father in law, who claimed to the police later, that the man came up to his house 'drunk' ( a huge crime! ), and 'beat' his daughter ( who knows! ). But male lives are expendable, especially for the cause of the huge female ego! The laws and judiciary are blatantly unfair!

There are too many scorned females out there today, who will support this father-in-law to get away with his crime. Too mesmerised by their personal vendetta, they carry it over to ALL males, who they oppose.

"The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan recorded over 600 cases of ‘honour’ killings or ‘karo kari’ last year" -- wow.
In the nearest language, it always works.

What would make us a better, stronger nation: dealing with the issue, or burying it in the sand?

Definitely dealing with the issue.