The God Delusion

#144 Posted by quin on September 17
That is a wrong assumption.

Let’s be bold again and let’s be arrogant once again, amen…. In the name of God all unkown, yet to be known


These assumptions are made and even protected because we don't try to understand concepts but rely on terms. Science is tomorrow’s religion. It does and will cover theory of God, philosophy is tomorrow’s religion, psychology is tomorrow’s religion. And all of them give better scriptures then religious books. All of them are clearer than scriptures. And all of them satisfy your other dimension of extending to infinity by keeping things open. And what is the proof that they do provide you that dimension, proof lies in the number of people/philosophers/scientists who believe in God but not in religions. All of them have much solid dimension that a common person.

So that lady, despite her great academic background doesn’t accept the fact that world keep on changing. We evolve, ideas evolve, we do not remain monkeys for ever.

She is for religion and haven't thought what can or is replacing it. She under-estimates intelligence and its evolution both.


Ideas evolve, so God outside of the context of these religions is evolution of this Godly idea. Even religions themselves should have b

The proof lies in how US, which is and was very religious society is moving away from religion. Their polls/census all show the shift and how significant it is. So far Christians call them athiests, though most of them simply do not believe in religion and are not against idea of God. Pope is begging in his great empire for people to remain theists (again a term deliberately misused, they mean stick to religion, not God).

Again, till it happens people will not believe it. World is more amazing then what we want it to be, it is much more changing and those fixed dimensions need to evolve. Nature will not let them stay there for long. In all probability, we are close to the time where idea of God completes a circle and comes out of evil clutches of religion and moves to new area of science of philosophy for general masses. Some day you will again get into some fixed ideas for long and then some other day they will again evolve.


Those who want to support status-quo because of their ego deceive themselves first and other later. I can write much more and I do not have high enough status to engage with those people and to argue against their ideas-cum-beliefs. But here on chowk so far I have that luxury and I am humbly misusing itï?Š Believe me I a more humble than religious people, who know what God is and what he wantsï?Š

god's delusion ........




gabby (preening his wings with his beak): al-lah mian, this stuff is really bad ....... i think it is time for me to make another trip to earth ...... this time i suggest you send me to the south of france so that i can pick up some decent wine ......... i really don’t understand your fascination with the bedouins ....... why do you keep on sending prophets to a people who can’t even make a decent drink ...... pass me a pakora ........by the way, do you know that people on earth are saying that you are delusional ?

al-lah: ........ please

gabby: please what ?

al-lah (sighing and looking at gabby with his single eye in the forehead): “please pass me a pakora� ........ gabby, just because you are my favorite angel does not mean that you get to forget your manners ....... now say, please .....

gabby: oh, puleeese !

al-lah: that’s better ........ now, what were you saying about me being delusional ...... i know that i drink too much and eat too many of these pakoras but i am certainly not delusional .......chitrali ?

gabby: heck, no ..... your warriors in swat have sealed off chitral and now all we get is this stuff from the hills around bari imam ..... those malangs at bari imam are the only people who really love you and think you are not delusional ........

al-lah(looking a little cross ): okay! ....... who thinks I am delusional and why ? ........ and how do they know i am delusional – i have never shown myself to any man other than mo of mecca – and what a mistake that was ..... just because the man had an audience with me he began to think that he was the best of the prophets and the last one ..... now that is delusional! ...... who? who? ...... who thinks i am delusional !

gabby (taking a sip from his styrofoam cup): al-mian, why can’t we drink out of the crystal glasses – are you saving them for a special occasion ? ..... look, we haven’t had company since mo ..... you did not want to invite joe smith, guru nanak and mirza ghulam ahmed because of your prejudice against non-bedouin prophets .....

al-lah: gabby, you are going off on a tangent again, me-damn-it! who is calling me delusional ? ...... i want to know now !

gabby: jesus christ ! ...... calm down ..... for one, there is hamidm ...... he thinks you are delusional because you think that you are a bigger and better god than the spaghetti monster and his homosexual lover ......

al-lah : don’t take my son’s name in vain ...... and i didn’t know that the spaghetti monster is a homo; heck , i don’t even know who is this the spaghetti monster ..... and you know that i know everything, i created everything, i am omnipotent and omnipresent and i have the power to create and the power to destroy !

gabby (looking a little bored and preening his left wing with his beak): all right, all right ........ calm down ..... for your sake, i know that you have not been created and cannot be destroyed , but you are about to blow a vein ..... look, al-lah mian, this spaghetti monster is just another one of your avatars – like the elephant nosed ganesh and the seven armed kali and the flute player Krishna and his girlfriend radha and ......

al-lah: (looking a little vary and confused) : i know all that gabby, i was there ...... i wish i had just sent down a single prophet to those darn hindoos like I did to the bedouins ...... but the hindoos are slow learners and have a flair for the dramatic, so i had to put on silly makeup and go down myself to do what a ten cent prophet could have done ...... i really hated it when i had to dress in drag and play radha ......

gabby: ..... hey, allah mian… that was neat! ..... how did you manage to be krishna and radha at the same time ? .....

al-lah (ruffling gabby’s father with his sixth finger): gabby, i can do anything if i want to do it ...... i can be at many places at the same time or be nowhere .... i can be here, there and everywhere ......

gabby: but that was just too freaky! ..... it was like watching a ball of mercury split and not split at the same time … al-lah mian, you are the greatest ...... awesome !...... i wish your daughters could have seen that – they would have more respect for you .....

al-lah (with a sad look on his face) : let’s not talk about lat and manat – i sent those girls down to mecca to stand in for me and what did they do ? ..... they let mo run them out of town ..... i tell you that prophet was on some kind of a power trip – totally out of control, if you ask me !....... but, i still don’t remember dressing up as the spaghetti monster ..... when did i do that?

gabby (holding up a peyote pakora) : al-lah mian, you need to lay off these .... you had to be the spaghetti monster because you are the only game in the universe ...... unless there is a parallel universe out there .......

al-lah: stop that nonsense! ...... there is no parallel universe ..... and if there was i would know about it because i create everything .......

gabby (rolling his eyes and muttering): yea, sure ......

al-lah: what was that ? ...... are you suggesting that I am delusional ? … after all I have done for you; fired iblees and made you the chief angel, trusted you with my messages to imbeciles, guaranteed eternal employment with great benefits and a health and dental plan ......

gabby (wrapping his wing around al-lah): oh come, al-lah mian ...... i didn’t mean to hurt your feelings ..... you know how it is; people talk – some say you don’t exist, others like hamidm think you are delusional and then there are those who think you are incompetent ..... these people are ignorant and they know not what they say … maybe we should speed up the timetable for armageddon and let them have it ...... that will teach them!

al-lah mian (beaming): come her gabby, we can’t do that – you know i have a plan for everything and just as we won’t sell any wine before it is time, we will not destroy the earth until we are ready - although i am a little worried about that haldron thing down in france ..... these fools might manage to destroy the world themselves and suck it up into a black hole ......

gabby (looking a little worried): .... but you can take things out of a black hole, can’t you?

al-lah (his single blue eye twinkling): i can do anything ..... i can even be the spaghetti monster

Re: # 138 & 143: pinku
No matter how much we wish, we cannot just "dilute" the presence of the scriptures in human life. The reason is that they satisfy our existential needs like no other thing does. We can only hope to have a better understanding. I am copying below another of my interact, where I elaborated on this idea a bit:

"How to approach religion is not a topic which can be settled in one sitting - or in one life for that matter.

One thing is sure, that it is never going to be resolved until people want to see things only with their linear thinking - in yes or no, in black and white, in right and wrong. Often the answer lies beyond the categories. The ‘kuans’ of Buddhism were meant to bring that reality closer to us.

There are many who have approached the Sacred Scriptures in a transcendental way. They don't find that it conflicts with their reason or logic. If I tell about my own approach, I may be blamed for being apologist of this or that. So I want to give example of Karen Armstrong. A non-religious scholar, trained in best tradition of academia, and then in her seeking she find wisdom in ancient scriptures. She studies them all, she contemplate on them and do research and write books. That is an interesting story worth knowing and following. Here I present an excerpt from her book "In the Beginning":

“In almost all cultures, scripture has been one of the tools that men and women have used to apprehend a dimension that transcends their normal lives. People have turned to their holy books not to acquire information but to have experience. They have encountered a reality there that goes beyond their normal existence but endows it with ultimate significance. They have given this transcendence different names ….., however we choose to describe or interpret it, it has been a fact of human life. We are constantly are of an ideal level that contrasts with world around us. We may not regard this realm as supernatural; we may prefer to find it in art, music or poetry rather than in a church or synagogue. But human being have persistently sought a dimension of existence that seems close to our normal lives and yet far from them. Scared scripture has been one of the principle means of introducing people to a world of ultimate truth, beauty and goodness.�

The key point is experience. She continues:

“But we have to know how to read our scriptures. They demand an imaginative effort that can sometimes be as perplexing and painful as Jacob’s wrestling match. The true meaning of scripture can never be wholly comprised in a literal reading of the text, since that text point beyond itself to a reality which cannot adequately be expressed in words and concepts. …..�
“… Scriptures … enabled millions of men and women to know at some profound level that human life has an eternal dimension, even though they have not always been able to express this insight in logical, rational form. [Scriptures] imply that it is a hard struggle to discern a sacred reality in the flawed and tragic conditions in which we live and that our experience will often be disconcerting or contradictory. Like Jacob, we will have to wrestle in the dark, denied the consolations of final certitude and experiencing at best only transient, elusive blessing. We may even find that we have been wounded in the course of our struggle�

The last sentence is reference to Biblical event of Jacob’s wrestling with God.

No matter how much we wish that scriptures either disappear, or read only one way or other, their reality defies will keep defying us all. We must learn to come to terms with it. And that is going to take a long time. Very long."

Add #138 Posted by pinku on ,

People in west, like Richard Dawkins and others are already challanging the "word of God" thing openly. Only Islam is capable of killing anybody who challanges its "word of God". The problem is because even the educated in Islam do not have sufficient number who can accept this. Even they somehow cling back to "book is good" people are stupid. Which is their problem. Understand, accept and then comunicate that "book" is not needed.

Re: # 139
sir, would you consider that forming a group(pressure group) through the medium of Chowk comprising of people who want to stem this path of destruction by terrorism and religio-zealots, can be an idea.
The objective will be to pressurize the new government into implementing such policies as you mentioned, legislature against religious or otherwise (ethnic) incitement, hate mongering and intolerance preaching.
Also, to put pressure on media. Maybe others can come up with ideas about other measures.
Can it be done? I am just throwing wild idea. I believe that our intelligentsia, especially the people settle in West who have access to more intellectual as well as physical resources can play an important role in that. Does not mean that other fine people I have seen settle in the Middle East and also, from the sub-continent cannot play their role. All those who wish to contribute towards this effort can do their part, but we need to develop leadership within the intelligentsia.
How we do organized such campaigns through the internet / Chowk?
Any ideas?

nycoolest #135 trust a mullah to come up with sexual implications to pillion-riding!! maybe that is why pillion-riding is the favored method for sectarian killings in Pakistan (pillion riding has actually been banned a couple of times as an anti-terrorist effort, that is how popular it became with the mullahs).

Re: # 136 khurram,
A point to contemplate. I like the notion of mediation of "spiritual experience to the cultural situation."
But it needs a lot of watching - 'taqwa'. Life's is thorny path.
Need more study on that aspect. Thanks

#135 I have seen enough of them to know what they are saying
it is basically superstition and/or plain stupidity masquerading as islam. E.g. (one woman spent an hour describing how the hadith says the prophet went to bed, how he dusted the bed with his left hand to ensure he would not kill any odd ant that might be there (she actually said that, and in a very saintly manner!), how he slept on his right side.

One can certainly try the email method you mention. Thus, e.g., in UK, after the bus bombings they finally moved against the mullahs by passing legislation to make "incitement to violence" a criminal act. It took the booting out of just a couple of mullahs from UK for these rogues to stop misusing mosques to encourage terrorist acts by harping on "muslim victimization" and other political bs.

Re #131 Posted by quin on September

That is good. You are doing the right thing in your own ways. It may be difficult for you to understand what I am doing?? I am not justifying Kuran, I am saying that Kuran and initial Islamic conquests and thier mode are at the root of problem not those muslims. Your short cut to portray Kuran in right light of yours will help, so unless you can do anything better that is the best thing to do.


But the root of the problem is adhering to Kuran and not its interpretation. DILUTE this adherence, no amount of interpretations will help. Dilute the need for religion between God and man. Kuran is religion not God. You already have several interpretations of it, you have several translations, you can give many others but they will get blurred with each passing day (and sooner than you think). If you have to give a better interpretation you have to write a new Kuran, purge its verses that are not good. The way Turkey is probably trying to do. Otherwise hoping for improvement is mere hope while you arbitrarily ignore things.




Bottom line is dilute religion, don't just give people another reason to stick to it and if we don't understand why, then we should first discuss that.

Tell people that Theism and Atheism exist without religion, tell them that you don't need those fake "word of God".

On a mass scale this is the fastest way if you give proper reason. Proper reason is the reason why no book can be word of God. Tell that why and get big people in line first. Get educated people in line first. Challanage those who for their evil egos or purpose say that "any book is word of God". Force educated people to say it publicly.


This is something that will have some intial hurdle but this will spread like wild-fire. Just tell them that you can love/worship God without needing to rely on any book.

That is what I am doing, here..

I am sitting on choraha of yours and am biting whoevere comes close to me, like a dog. But I can't do it for long:-)

Tahmed Bhai, I used to visit my cusions in rawalpindi. came to know that the mullah of mohallay ki masjid declared the mortorcycle shaitani ride as the riders may have ibleesi thoughts when getting in close contact with each other....Same kinda jaali fatwas were passed for loud TV and images but then they bend rules for their propogation. There is no limit to their stupidity.

Re: #129 quin
Your work on the Quran is extremely worthy and I look forward to more of it.
But, please don't dismiss theology. Theology is what mediates spiritual experience to the cultural situation.
Insofar as you do that, you DO have a theology, even if it is unconventional or new.
Bad theology is one that gets disconnected from the spiritual core. You can replace bad theology with good theology but not with no theology. That is just a fantasy.

Re: # 134
worth considering - but then how we know what they are saying and doing. That is where the media problem comes. Maybe new government is made to realize that it is important to stop hate mongering for the stability of the country and region.
Maybe a e-mail campaign just like the one referred in post #69.

further to #132: the problem we have, of course, is that mullahs are using TV like Geo to propogate their BS, just as they misuse loudspeakers in Pakistan to shove their azaan down everyone's ears.

With summer over and Pakistan "loadshedding refugees" back in Pakistan, I plan to stop subscription to Geo and write to them to let them know why - they are being used to propagate mullahism. This is one thing expat Pakistanis can do to save Islam from mullahs - take away the TV from them.

#132 agreed on the other "games" - "bearded politicians" of the mullah fazloo stripe play their game which is to gain political power; "bearded bandits" of the taliban stripe play their game, which is to carve out a piece of turf for themselves; plain old "bearded students" of the jamaatiya type play their game which is to bully other students.

no need to anguish though - as a muslim, I find it quite easy to deal with these "bearded" hooligans of various stripes - all I tell them in effect is "RTBM" (Read The Blessed Manual") then talk to me. Then I watch them squirm and disappear (there used to be a lot more on chowk, but now urstruly is the last jamaatiya around, and you may wish to try this out with him).

Re: # 130 tahmed32:
"Organized religion", "theology" and so forth are merely ways to make bucks." and relish in their egos and narcissism, ... (and then there are deeper games too)

well said sir, I am so glad to hear that there are others who think this way.

I have not read all the archived material on Chowk. It is so much and the time is premium with day job and all that.

But the anguish is overwhelming too, so we have to keep tilling ... thank you for your words.

Re: # 128 pinku,
Finally, someone said the words, the root cause of the problem. Amen
So let's talk about that.
What is it?
How religion became to so dominate our culture and politics?
What are the other factors in the equation.
How can we identify?
Once we identify, what we can do about it.
Every single person is in their unique situation. Not every one is a social activists. How different people can contribute.
Or maybe, we even don't need to do as much analysis, and rather just do what we can.
I am doing my work in my own way which I trust will help understand Quran in a light which will weakens the case of fundamentalism.
I refer here another effort done on similar lines. The following is copied with slight modification from another paper I read at a seminar.

"An article titled “Koranic Duels Ease Terrors� appeared in the Christian Science Monitor some time ago. It describes the efforts of Yemeni Judge Hamoud al-Hitar to bring peace to his troubled country by challenging terrorists of Al-Quaida to enter into dialogue with him. According to the article, Hitar challenges Al-Quaida activists to a verbal duel by proposing: "If you can convince us that your ideas are justified by the Koran, then we will join you in your struggle, but if we succeed in convincing you of our ideas, then you must agree to renounce violence."

Now, two years later, … relative peace reigns in Yemen. … Western experts who doubted this experiment are courting Hitar, eager to hear how his "theological dialogues" with captured Islamic militants have helped pacify this wild and mountainous country previously seen by the US as a failed state like Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Yemen's strategy has been unconventional certainly, but it has achieved results that we could never have hoped for," says one European diplomat. …Hitar explains that his system is simple. He invites militants to use the Koran to justify attacks on innocent civilians and when they cannot, he shows them numerous passages commanding Muslims not to attack civilians, to respect other religions, and fight only in self-defense. He uses the passages to bolster his argument against bombing Western targets in Yemen - attacks he says defy the Koran … (and its teaching that ) … under no circumstances should women and children be killed. If, after weeks of debate, the prisoners renounce violence they are released and offered vocational training courses and help to find jobs.�

Hitar says, "along with acknowledging freedom of expression, intellect and opinion, you must listen and show interest in what the other party is saying."… He says that most militants are ordinary people who have been led astray. Just as they were taught Al Qaeda's doctrines, … so too can they be taught more moderate ideas. "If you study terrorism in the world, you will see that it has an intellectual theory behind it," says Hitar. "And any kind of intellectual idea can be defeated by intellect."
What Hitar has said in his above interview, touches upon the central point which I want to present ..."
For full article pl see:
http://familyofheart.com/05/Dec112005/Presentation_AMM.htm