The God Delusion

Re: # 273 pinku
you keep ignoring the central point - that is why it is said that mind is not always trustworthy - granted you never evre ignore all the achievements of mind - no one is saying that. And there is no romanticism in seeing things for what they are: half naked. Do you claim to know everything?

To reiterate, the central point was in the centre:

"All sacred can be turned profane
Yet in profane there some sacred remains

More for #269 Posted by quin on September 21, 2008 2:55:26 pm

[[There is more to it than our eyes can meet.
]]


There is more to it then even our mind can meet. But what our mind has already met successfully should not be ignored else it is our problem. So no excuses for ignoring mind and comforting ego.

Re #269 Posted by quin on,

[[World is not always what it seems to be]]

Good romantic thoughts, if it happens sometimes that you don't know what is fair and what is foul, it ok.

But when fair is foul and foul is fair and if that happens too many times there is something wrong with mind, and if that is done deliberately then you lost control over it completely.

Overall when this happens because of conditions out of your control it is still acceptable but if somebody justify stupidities based on this then it is not a romantic thought, it is root of deception or evilness.

Re: # 270 saqibtahir,
These are the real issues, and real perspective on such issues. These are the type of the posts we need to have in order to understand various aspects of a social problem which is brought to the table by a writer. It is a very commendable and refreshing post bringing back to focus the problems put forth in the original 'article'.

And above all, this response is an example which shows the potential of engaging into various aspects of an issue in a sensible and productive way at the Chowk forum.
I am unaware of internal working of Ahmedia group, but coming from a member (or ex member), it is revealing, though it never justifies any violence against anyone.

Violence is unjustifiable in any fashion, in any type, by any group or person against any group or person or even an animal. That is my conviction.

I hope someone else more knowledgeable can throw light on the aspect which post # 270 brings forth.

Thank you Saqib Tahir.

Crimes against Ahmedies in Pakistan and rest of Islamic world are condemnable and Ahmedies should be allowed freedoms to practice their religion. All discriminatory laws against Ahmedies must be scraped.

At the same time I advise Ahmedies also to change their policies and stop cruel practices like 'social boycott', expulsions, hate propaganda, forced divorces and family breakups that they use against people who chose to leave Jamaat or express dissent about the policies or personal behaviour of Ahmedi leadership. It is highly hypocritical that Ahmedies don't allow any Ahmedi to object on any belief or people of Mirza family but expect that others will tolerate their beliefs that are in conflict with some basic tenants of Main stream Islam.


A lot of problems against Ahmedies are direct result of social isolation that Ahmedies have self-created due to their policy of not having marital and social relations with non-Ahmedi Muslims. This policy of Ahmadiyya has made this community a fortress community that is held hostage by their own dogmas - many purely based on hate.


I am an Ahmedi by birth and held many positions in Jamaat in my youth. Right now I am facing a severe social boycott by Ahmedi community including families of me and my wife. Is such practice human? My only crime was that I criticize corruption among clergy and so-called holy Mirza family and also some wrong practices including discrimination against women.

"Fair is foul and foul is fair"
Macbethean witches of Shakespeare say.
All sacred can be turned profane
Yet in profane there some sacred remains
World is not always what it seems to be
There is more to it than our eyes can meet.

#267 Posted by quin on

Sorry quin, you can cherish your thoughts, but Kuran is most stupid book i have ever read.

And even with the maximum amount of twisting of its verses (say you use all of your intelligence to translate it into something good), you can not get anything close to wisdom.

[[
"We revealed to you a Book, which entails
A meditative discourse, to contemplate"]]

Nope you are lying Sir; Dear God of Kuran, you wrote deceptive, tribal words or whatever you could come up and that makes many people live like fools.

[[
"Do you wonder on this discourse,
And laugh but not weep!
]]

Well we do wonder who can be so stupid when talking on behalf of God?? But we feel pity and feel sad but we do not weep because we think that the mind given by nature (original God) is eventually capable of finding much wonderful thoughts, and much more amazing God, who doesn't speak idiotically.

[[
And amuse yourself in vanities."
"Ya hasratan ala ibadi
Man is surely at loss"
]]

Ha Ha:-) You created him at loss?? Don't worry the journey of Men will be more fruitful than yours and we don't need hell and heaven. Anyway we are not competing with you:-) All that is there is part of us and we are part of it even without knowing about all the different worlds. And we don't need to know about your hell/heaven and other worlds, we have much better ideas. Once we die, whoeever gets us should take care of us, in whatever way he feels good. If you get a chance, do whatever you can.

"Men only know but the outer things.
Life of this world is all that they think.
Unmindful of its sure ending.
Only if they would care to reflect
On that which lies within their own selves,
And that which lies in heavens and on earth,
And that which lies between the two.
Only if they would knew!"
"We revealed to you a Book, which entails
A meditative discourse, to contemplate"
"Do you wonder on this discourse,
And laugh but not weep!
And amuse yourself in vanities."
"Ya hasratan ala ibadi
Man is surely at loss"

From Quran.

God delusion,
ke Islam delusion,
ke Pakistan delusion,
ke US delusion.....

delusion settle hua ki nahin????

ho ke riyo hai... kon se delusion main chal rahe ho abhi???

Rahiman delusion hi bhala,
jo apni jeb ka na kutch jaaye
kahat kabir suno by sadho
bas marte dum tak raha jaaye

oopar ki chaar lina kabir aur rahim donon ne milke badi muskil se likho hain..

Re: # 264

masadi,

.... have you looked under your bed lately? .... the guy with the beard and scabies is a taliban and not a member of the us elite .....

So the Americans have sent a message through their suicide bomber in the heart of Islamabad to remove glitches in establishing a large scale base near Islamabad, and to give a clear message to Zardari before his upcoming US trip (Tuesday), isn't it a 'self fulfilling prophecy' of some months back which said that if they Pakistanis didn't follow the US line, including the punctuation and what not that similar attacks like the one that killed BB could follow!:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-fg-mullen19- 2008sep19,0,1310930.story

U.S. military advisors may soon head to Pakistan

The U.S. and Pakistan have cleared remaining obstacles, so the long-delayed team may arrive within weeks, Joint Chiefs Chairman Michael Mullen says.

Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 19, 2008

A long-delayed plan to send dozens of U.S. military advisors to Pakistan to train its army in counterinsurgency could begin in a matter of weeks under a new agreement on a training base, according to the top U.S. military officer.

Washington for months has urged the Pakistani military to accept the training team. Pakistan has resisted, asking for additional weaponry and equipment some U.S. officials believe is best suited for its standoff with regional rival India.

But Navy Adm. Michael G. Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the primary stumbling block had been the fact that Pakistan could not build the training site, near the western town of Peshawar, quickly enough. The two sides have agreed to use an alternative base north of the capital.

"We're still going through some administrative delays, but I do see it happening," Mullen said in an interview en route from Washington to his hometown of Los Angeles, where he plans a series of talks in coming days. "I think it's in the next few weeks."

..... see what people will do on an empty stomach? ... the deluded people have brought their god's war to islamabad and the marriott is no more ........next?

Re: # 261

SR mian,

.... for the record .... i have never insulted anyone who did not deserve to be insulted - this too is in keeping with the tradition of the bedouin prophet, so please give me some credit ..... i will agree that mad masadi has calmed down a little bit and does not hurl his feces at passers by as he sits naked under a tree reading mills and boon ... but if i were you, i would still give him a wide berth ......

.... i like your ideas on reforming the ancient bedouin ritual of fasting to make islam into a more regular religion, but first we have to tackle the five times a day prayer which is the root of all evil ...... you see, this incessant prayer keeps the moslem in a state of constant agitation and results in the barbaric behavior that has been the scourge of mankind - suiciders, homiciders, pillaging, looting, the destruction of somnath and the destruction of the grand temple of mecca ..... if we can restrict praying to once a week it will give the believer sevn days to recover from the trauma ...... this, i think, should be the number one priority ......

......as far as fasting goes, i like the catholic approach of giving up something for a day or two much better than total abstinence - i, for one, am willing to give up the tonic in my gin for a day or two .........

masadi ... congratulations

Masadi sahib

This is just a generic observation, not participating in any discussion because I have barely enough time to read and none to write. However, I did want to express my appreciation that you have, of late, abandoned your unattractive style of hurling personal insults at those who did not agree with you. Now that you mostly stick to your argument and do not abuse everyone in the forum, more people should start taking you seriously. I have also stopped ignoring your messages as I'm sure many others must have too.

Now that your posts are decently written, your arch nemesis, Hamid Murtid, is the one who utters insults while you keep your dignity and do not stoop to his level. You have started following the a good character trait of 'Mo of Mecca' (as the Murtid calls him) ... When people made fun of him and insulted him, he kept his cool and maintained a dignified demeanur. Congratulations and well done.

...SR

PS:

What, BTW, do you say about having 52 fasts during the year; 32 mandatory and 20 optional, once a week, on Friday, with flexibility as to which 32 you choose to keep. We could still have Eid at the end of Ramadan, and Jumma-tul-Vida would still be the same, but it would be for the whole year's worth of fasting instead of all concentrated in one month.

hp mian,

... the reason i quoted homi was because i don't have any idea what he is talking about - not a clue! ..... similarly, i have no idea what masadi is talking about ..... either masadi is as clever or homi bhaba, or they are both as dumb as door knobs ....... i suspect it is the latter ......

#256 Posted by hamidm2

Hamid Khan, thinking that quoting from Homi Bhabha's book "The Location of Culture" would get you off the hook, then you were seriously mistaken.

I don't understand why are you making this simple thing a mystery? What is so hard to figure out? Asadi responding to your post with the Nacirema reference. So the clue is in your own post.
I will help you solve the mystery, if you follow my lead.

You are like Jesus goat right now!

#2 Posted by TaureanKhan:
If you are located in Greater Toronto (Canada), there is a forum called, "Family of the Heart", where you will feel at home, regarding all what you say your expectations are.

www.familyofheart.com

Najeeb Kazmi

Mr. Hamid Bilal,

Your studies on performance was a pleasure to read.

Your obedient student,

GT

Re: # 255

masadi mian,

..... i am not trying to be obtuse or obstinate - i really don't get it .... you can call me stupid but i would appreciate an explanation - what is it that you are trying to say ? ...... i am a powerpointologist - not a sociologist or anthropologist - so please restrict your explanation to four or five or less bullets that will fit on one page ......

having said that, i believe that if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to `normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality ......

Hamid sahib, you totally lost it in the Nacirema article. Your rant sounds even more pathetic everytime you repeat it. I think we should say your namaz e janaza on Chowk and move on from there...

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

Sociology is justified by the belief that it is better to be conscious than unconscious and that consciousness is a condition of freedom. To attain a greater measure of awareness, and with it of freedom, entails a certain amount of suffering and even risk. An educational process that would avoid this becomes simple technical training and ceases to have any relationship to the civilizing of the mind...

Peter Berger, Invitation to Sociology: A Humanistic Perspective

majumdar bhai#253 it would appear so. after all, to every new advancement in weapons technology the enemy comes up with a way to neutralize its affect.

Tahmed sahib,

the next time I see a Talib on my land I am going to screw him as hard I can

I suppose any Talib landing up at Lakki Marwat shud carry a bottle of vaseline with him.

Regards

hamidm: to cheer you up, let me switch from the financial section to international news. Here is good news from the War on Terror as innovative new battlefield tactics are adopted by the Allies against the Taliban:

In Lakki Marwat, home to Pakistan’s second-biggest Pushtun clan, a florid-faced hereditary ruler called Anwar Kamal has maintained a firm and secular grip. By way of explanation, he said: “I told the Taliban, in traditional language, that the next time I see a Talib on my land I am going to screw him as hard I can.� B
(reported by the Economist)

hamidm #250 you are the one worrying about your retirement income, not me. so what makes you think i could benefit from investment lessons from you?

Re: # 249

tahmed mian,

.... it is called diversification ..... the way i see it, social security is part of your portfolio and there is nothing wrong with having a certain percentage in government backed securities ...... and to be honest i don't mind subsidizing the dumb asses who did not diversify - after all, i am my brother's keeper even if my brother happens to be tahmed .....

#248 hamdim: you mean you are a smart dumb ass? One who cheers Texas George and Matchstick Coulter, but at the same time understand that they are out to screw "little guys" like you who actually have to pay taxes and worry about retirement funds??

Now you have me as confused as your offspring who thought a speeding ticket was a Certificate of Aryan Descent and stuck it on the fridge!!

Re: # 245

tahmed,

.... this might surprise you but i have always been against privatizing social security because and believe that government has a responsibility to take care of the dumb asses who can't take care of themselves ..... it is a hedge against social turmoil and has nothing to do with morality and all that other nonsense ......

hamidm
[.. people like bedouins and hindoos ...]

Don't you dare mix bedouins and hanoods together - last time that happened, we got pakis as result, some fine garbage that created... :)

hamidm #244 you also need a good history teacher.

Hamidm:

Thought for the day - Thank God and the Democrats for your Social Security. If the Texas George, Matchstick Coulter and Bridge Palin had had their way, your Social Security would have been "invested" by Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros, and backed by kindly old AIG. And gone the way of the rest of their "investments" - in foreclosures and sky-high salaries to their CEOs.

But then..you could have blamed your washed up state to the "unwashed masses" of the third world, thus taking another giant step towards achieving your ambition of becoming a redneck Coulter fan...

Re: # 243

hp.

... sorry .... i read all that stuff on wiki a long time ago and read it again to see if i missed something, but i still don't get it ...... to me there has never been any doubt that western civilization - which is the result of thousands of years of man's struggle for perfection - is much much superior to the 'culture' of papua new gunieans and other primitive people like bedouins and hindoos who still haven't discovered eating utensils ......... is there any doubt about that ?

..... and i certainly don't understand what sarah palin has to do with it ? ...... she is one heck of a fine women and like everyone else i love those glasses .... she makes my heart go pitter patter and i can't wait for her to get into the white house if and when mcain croaks .....

Hamidm (various posts in the state of redneck clueless-ness!)

Even before the article, this little intro would have helped you!

“Most cultures exhibit a particular configuration or style. A single value or pattern of perceiving the world often leaves its stamp on several institutions in the society. Examples are "machismo" in Spanish-influenced cultures, "face" in Japanese culture, and "pollution by females" in some highland New Guinea cultures. Here Horace Miner demonstrates that "attitudes about the body" have a pervasive influence on many institutions in Nacirema society.�

Wiki has the answer at the top. Read the complete article here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacirema
Various sociologists have used the term Nacirema to examine (with a degree/pretense of anthropological self-distancing) aspects of the behavior and society of American people — citizens of North America. Nacirema offers a form of word play by spelling "American" backwards.

Now do you see the relevance? Or you need help from Sarah Palin!




#235 Posted by tahmed32 on September 18, 2008 6:15:04 pm
"HP: I am not sure how the hair salons came in - but I did get a haircut only yesterday."

Remember this post Tahmed? That is where the hair salon came in!

#183 Posted by tahmed32 on September 17, 2008 8:08:37 pm
Distinguished and Most Gracious Mr. Masadi: i never heard of women baking their heads in small ovens. is this a spa of some kind?

His pain is certainly

HP mian, I think Hamid still hasn't got it. His pain is a certainly a pleasure to observe. A unique opportunity where the wannabe is making a clown of himself....

Enjoy while it lasts,
TNI Masadi

hamid writes "i think he is somehow trying to diss americans and american culture,..."

Give an anthropological bent to rituals of others that people are used to "dissing" and the ethnocentric think they are being "dissed". I think the Nacirema have greater utility than I thought. Hamid mian put a mirror to your face and see it clearly and then put a mirror to Nacirema and see what is revealed. Can i make it clearer?

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

hamid writes "... masadi has posted the nacirema thing at least once before and i still don't see what it has to do with the price of dates in mecca ....."

HP sahib hamid is really pissed, I can tell. The Nacirema would react similarly to such "provocation" regarding their way of life. Regarding my finding out, I read it the first time exactly three days back and have never shared it with anyone until today...

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

hp mian,

..... unfortunately sarah palin has put me in a quandary .... i don't want to ditch ann coulter for her .... can i love them both?

Re: # 231

hp mian,

.... i didn't get the one about tahmed's haircut - what did i miss ?

.... masadi has posted the nacirema thing at least once before and i still don't see what it has to do with the price of dates in mecca ....... i think he is somehow trying to diss americans and american culture, but coming from a primitive creature like him it doesn't make much sense ..... masadi is just another hate-filled fool who keeps on blaming america for his own inadequacies - there are at least a billion of them out there .......

Re: # 230

GT,

... i didn't ask god for relief - i asked bush and paulson and they obliged ..... i only ask god for what he can handle - like making sure that the moon comes out on time so that we can end this silliness of ramzan ........

HP: I am not sure how the hair salons came in - but I did get a haircut only yesterday. Same time as the stock market was getting a haircut. Mine was a lot less expensive than the $85 billion haircut of Wall Street ($14 plus tip), and I felt a lot better after my haircut than Wall Street gnomes did after theirs.

Hamid sahib, concentrate on this word

Nacirema

Does it ring any bells? drums? trumpets?

HP sahib, thank you kindly for the appreciation. My part was just the link. I didn't write that beautiful piece of anthropology : )

ye quin ke 218, party waale comment ke liye:-)
miss ho gaya tha..

kya oodi oodi si batain hain
kya chadhe chahde se log
khauf khuda ka laha-ra raha
bandon ki chal rahi moj

#224 Posted by masadi

Asadi the piece about Nacirema was just wonderful. Finally, your sense of humor trumped the redneck wannabe Hamidm.

Interestingly both the real redneck and the Redneck wannabe could not figure out the connection... You need Sarah Palin to teach the rednecks.....

Btw, it seems that tahmed hasn't been to some better salon for haircut in a long time.

Visit this in wash DC http://www.ohairsalon.com/

Or try this for specific knowledge!
http://www.fotosearch.com/MDG007/55915252/

Maybe Tahmed would like this one
http://www.fotosearch.com/PHD539/aa038604/
Or this one.
http://www.fotosearch.com/BDX342/bxp65029/

Hamid,

"...... this week has proven beyond doubt that god does not exist and if he does, the us government is much stronger than him ......... "

In the name of the One who is most merciful, please shut up. You will make all of us sink. You cannot ask for relief and make fun of God at the same time. Now do go and wash some dishes .... and yes with your hands.

Re: # 227

GT,

.... in principle i am against any kind of a government bailout, but as masadi will tell you in my religion principle takes a back seat when my rear is being hung out to dry ....... and if god really did exist a big thunderbolt would have struck wlal street and the tresuary department every time paulson opened his big mouth ...... this week has proven beyond doubt that god does not exist and if he does, the us government is much stronger than him .........

Hamidm: Vote for Obama and he will make sure you have a chicken in every pot in the house after retirement!! Not just any chicken, but USDA certified kosherized and totally hilal chicken!!

Hamid,

I understand. Actually you may have to work for more than 5 years, I would say around 7 to 10 more years. But thanks to your team of bushmen, your gardener will end up paying more taxes so that you can indeed retire after just 3 years. I keep on telling you God exists, but you refuse to see His mercy. If you keep on with your God jokes, the Congress may refuse to create the big garbage bag and you may have to kiss your retirement goodbye.

Re: # 215

GT,

.... i did not sell my morality on wall street this week but i did get buggered by some very immoral people - church and synagogue goers, every one of them! ..... now i have to work for another five years instead of devoting my energy to work for the betterment of mankind on chowk ..... i am afraid tahmed will have to bear that burden alone

In #224 read "is not reacting like a mad man" as

"is now reacting like a mad man"

hamid writes "masadi,

.... i bet you the person who wrote that piece of nonsense is a tenured professor of some pseudo science, like sociology or anthropology, who should be collecting food stamps and government cheese ......"

Salam and greetings of peace Hamid sahib. How goes? baal bacha raazi baazi? It seems that I have totally pissed you off by linking to the Nacirema article (which was not written by me but by an anthropologist). In fact you are so pissed off that not only are you rubbishing that article (based on zero evidence, it is very true btw) but you are writing off the entire field as well as another field of sociology as "pseudo science". Such is the rambling of a mad man who having being caught with his pants down where they were supposed to be up is not reacting like a mad man, and how do you end your ramble, as the usual morally shallow capitalist peon who makes money the measure of all things...the Nacirema are real people, living a real life, and their rituals and rites are quite outlandish and exotic...sometimes even to themselves

Have a nice "ethnocentric" day,
TNI Masadi

bottom line is what remains at top of the agenda..
another joke:-)


Islam has hijacked muslims with two tings: strong identity/ego (arab identity) and an inferiority complex (that further requires more people to join that identity to be in a better position to defend it).. and so these two things support each other


From the days of Muhammad, muslims suspected and knew something is wrong with Islam (as shown by Kuran/Hadiths written by muslims themselves) but Muhammad blamed it on conspiracy against believers, the same idea Mullahas have used since then. The inferiority against reason is in Islam from day one, and because of such a long presence of this inferiority complex, the whole Islamic machinery has built elaborate lying/propaganda machinery against it. And that is why it is so easy to suppress reason in muslim societies, the society is used to that kind of suppression for long, nothing new...

#216 Posted by tahmed32

Ha Ha,:-)
"resonable" is for person only, ideas are rational or irrational... I can only make my posts or ideas rational, not reasonable...

See Islam needs confrontation through ideas not through bombs as US is doing it... Of course Islam will cry that it needs no confrontation at all, it just needs some occasional blood, some more nations and some conversion:-)

#210 Posted by masadi

You should add your eternal assurance to one of your scriptures, perhaps with my jokes in original, that will give lots of joy to believers.

[[Dilution is the solution to pollution.]]

:-), well said, including pollution through religions.

Re: # 185 Hamid Murtad ["... and what about the silly ritual of starving yourself for a month which is going on as we speak ? ..."]

This can be fixed with modern ijtihaad. I propose that instead of having 30 compulsory and 10 optional fasting days in a year, there should be an ammendment.

The number of compulsory fasts should be raised to 32 and on top of that there should be an additional 20 optional ones.

Fasting should not be done every day and that too just in Ramadan. Instead, every Friday should be a fasing day, all around the year. 52 fasts in all. You are required to do at least 32. Do any 32 and you've met the requirement. Or do as many more as you desire upto a maximum of 52 for the year. It's like earning CECs... bits at a time. Much more consistent and meaningful.

This will be fair to all parties. And on top of that we won't get this madness of one whole month of frenzy and hysteria. Spread it out thinly.

Dilution is the solution to pollution.

...SR

I don’t mean to interrupt the party going on here, but after the interacts I had, a few quotes came to my mind this morning, so I thought I would share it, though as if someone cares:

“Am I my brothers keeper?� - from Bible

“The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.� – Karl Marx

“hay paray sarhad-e-idraak se apna masjood
Qiblay ko ahl-e-nazar qibla nama kehtay heiN� - Ghalib (as quoted by Khurram)

"Fuzzy logic is a problem-solving control system methodology that can be implemented in hardware, software, or a combination of both. Fuzzy logic provides a simple way to arrive at a definite conclusion based upon vague, ambiguous, imprecise, noisy, or missing input information. It is an excellent choice for control system applications since it mimics human logic� – from a Manual of ISA (Instrumentation, Systems, and Automation Society)

You don't have to respond to this ...

#214 Posted by hamidm2 on

hmmm hamid, sounds good but a bit confused..... I also have something to say on this, but nobody is ready to listen....

Masadi #210 Very well put, sir. I somehow have the sense that Pinku is a more reasonable person than her posts make her appear...but then, I have the same feeling about myself and everyone else on chowk.. :-(

Could you tell me what is wrong with me?? (in 500 words of less)

Hamid,

Are you all right? You do not happen to be one of those who sold their morality cheap in Wall Street this week?

here is what my guru has to say about the pursuit of 'truth':

I think it’s very difficult to understand the question of truth without some form of narrative because even if you assume that truth is an innate quality of something, in the same spirit that Keats said ‘Truth is beauty, beauty truth’, then truth is still going to be a form of judgment, and judgment assumes some kind of temporality in which you balance various things, and you need language to communicate that.


... wow !!!!!

Hamid,

Not to worry ..... morality is nothing but bait for the gullible. Right now it is being bought at a very cheap price in Wall Street.

Re: # 208

masadi,

.... i bet you the person who wrote that piece of nonsense is a tenured professor of some pseudo science, like sociology or anthropology, who should be collecting food stamps and government cheese ...... there are a lot of self-hating americans out there - like ward churchill, cornel west and howard zinn ...... and i don't even know if they are self-hating .... it seems that they are hypocrites who are in this business to make money ... did you know that cornel west makes over 500,000 a year at princeton ? ...... imagine, you could have been part of his gang if only ......

Re: # 206

gt,

... that too, but morality hits me at a personal level since i consider myself to be a very moral person regardless of my penchant for prosciutto and merlot and an aversion to washing my rear end with my hand - left or right ....

Pinku writes "They are good jokes"

I can assure you that your posts are bigger jokes than anything found in religious texts,

have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

hamid writes "my biggest problem with religion is that people have been conditioned to equate religiosity with morality when in my experience it is an inverse relationship .."

Another ignorant conclusion without any measures of religiosity or any sampling to determine this relationship, neither any operational definitions of morality. So religiosity is based now on claim and holding of office, and mass media propaganda. Masha-allah, what a fine dimwitted way to lead your life on brain farts

hamid writes ".... i think that the muslim ritual of allowing a man to share his bed with four 'wives', fourteen concubines and a boy is much more 'exotic' than anything the poor nacirema can come up with - crowded, but exotic ..... what about the islamic tradition of burying women alive as practiced in balucistan and sind ?.... and what about the silly ritual of starving yourself for a month which is going on as we speak ? ....."

So now you are reduced to inventing straw-men to support your biases, isn't that how typification works when facts go against your stereotypes? There is nothing islamic about either sharing your bed with 4 or burying women, on the contrary whatever is written in that piece about the Nacirema is 100% true and they are real, as real as you sitting on the computer typing this sh**. You just don't get it because it does not fit in with your prejudiced typification. The Nacirema are a very exotic people with odd rituals, in fact so odd that when confronted by an anthropological rendition of their rituals they are themselves surprised!

Ha Ha...

I also like religion if people don't follow them and their prophets. They are good jokes. Read the book with opoen mind, you will enjoy it.

Hamid,

".... my biggest problem with religion is that people have been conditioned to equate religiosity with morality ...."

Bas itni si baat? I thought that you were averse because it is equated with civilization and knowledge.

Re: # 201

GT,

.... my biggest problem with religion is that people have been conditioned to equate religiosity with morality when in my experience it is an inverse relationship ...... the more religious the person, the more immoral - if you want proof, you don't have to look further than the pope or osama bin laden or your neighbor with the callouses on his ankle and the mark of the devil on his forehead ....... to me this proves that religion is the biggest immorality of all ..... but then, i am a simple minded person who can't get past alif laam meem, while tahmed is a wise man who understands the koran 'haaa meem' and all .....

#197 Posted by muradbaig on

Hmmm... so the gold standards of prophet-giri were set by Abrahm himself and Muhammad just tried to beter it??? That is why muslims do not want to blame mo??

I would say that the Mrs is a wise person.

Re: # 201

gt mian,

..... this is the holy month of ramadhan and mrs hamidm is in a religious frenzy atoning for her sinful behavior during the year - things like making me do the dishes, wearing capri pants and living in sin with an apostate ...... i am sure that you will agree that the first one is a mortal sin but the other two are nitpicks ..... no?

What is there to be confused about? Just ask the Mrs.

Re: # 199

GT,

ummmmmm .... now i am really confused !

Hamid,

God exists and signs are everywhere in chowk. Had it been left to evolution, many in chowk (me included) would not have existed.

#194 Posted by nkg on
nkg,
nobody is capable of disputing those assertions, they can only be ignored. So you have to repeat them occasionally, that is what i do:-)

Re: # 3

Just saw this and I have to sadly agree with most of Richard Dawkins book. Unfortunately a large number of illiterate and a few literate followers of almost all religions (that all profess to promote peace and brotherhood)have been hijacked by bigoted priests of religion to make `religion' the greatest trigger to hatred and violence. Dawkins correctly says... " evil things are never done with such glee and pride as when they are done in the name of religion."

Dawkins also very convincingly rubbishes many prophets of religion. If you read the accounts about Abraham (the founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam),as recorded in the Old Testament, you will be shocked at his many human frailties and deceitfulness.

nkg#194:

I did not dispute hamidm's contention; merely said that tahmed saheb's views on this issue are well-known to most of us.

#194... contd...
and leading life of a pet dog...
Eating dog biscuits/rice/vegetables , sleeping in sofa etc...

Re: # 189
DM...
Hamid is correct.. at least the second para... those who are studying that subject (mo's revealitions) throughout their life and and teaching the same, should be trated as more authentic than any other person. The behaviour of islamic experts (in regard to hate speach, immoral activties...) accross the globe is same. So, you can not bring social influence etc... here....
If Imams/Hazis in Britan, Egypt, USA, Pakistan and India explain mo's revealition in such a way that it looks nothing but a gangsters manual with cooked up stories, linked with Bible etc... how can you discard all of them as wrong interpretation? Can you claim that Islam got changed in it's birthplace- arab land? At least, here is no historic reason (like large scale migration etc...) behind it. How is islam is practised in arab land?....


We know the problem of mixed creatures like masadi, tahmed and other Pakistanis, specialy those who got some decent education or know something outside Islam....Neither can they condemn 6th century beduinism (centuries of identity as arab slave) nor can they adopt it (knowing fully well that, it is very much destructive and can not survive with it)...

The only way left is deception.....

#187 Posted by hamidm2
Gypsies are the people who left north western India (that time including Pakistan) to save themselves from killings and conversions. Practically, they mark the time when things were most difficult for people living in those areas.

The other part is conversion of Rajputs to Bhangis. Islam really helped India to evolve into much worse society.

Re #188 Posted by hamidm2 on,
I gave same reasoning. Reason wise, I think everybody understands how hollow "muslim hijack islam" kind of statement is. But as you know a muslim is supposed to be loyal to Islam and Kuran and not to logic or even to humanity, so argument is optional and mostly redundant for them.


I also explained to quin how the other dimension stupidly mentioned by an extremely intelligent and educated lady of religions (somebody called Armstrong and not headstrong) gets better support from science/philosophy/psychology, and how they are religion of future and they can discard their current ones. But as you know all those arguments are redundnt for army of pope, mullahs and religions.

Also, the difference between theism without religion and theism with religion should have been quite clear to people who run after atheism, but again everything is an option when you are working for your EGO.


So while love is dissolving your ego for soething else, what muslim do is dissolve their intellect for Islam, they expand their ego to protect Islam.

The question is why? Answer is inferiority complex.


OK here is another stupid question?
WHY HINDU PRIESTS DO NOT TEACH SAME JIHAD or"us vs them" kind of philosophy to Hindus. Why their mandirs are not giving lectures to how they should get rid of non-believers or muslims? WHy they have not been able to hijack Hinduism for last 4000 years (when Temur lung, Ghori or Aurangjeb killed them, or even when they just ruled them?).

Mullahs in Saudi Arabia, know 10 times more arabic than most in Pakistan and elsewhere and they understand what is written in Kuran, they know it since it was written.

How much a religion can be exploited does depend to a great extent on that religion itself. And that is why all religions are not exploited in diffeent ways. You get Islamic warriors from Islam and Dakhshina taking Brahminsfro Hinduism.

But in any case congratulations to you guys for at least thinking in right direction (that something needs to be done to eliminate terrorism) and further to arrive at some solution (whatever it is). Rest will evolve over time.

dost mittar sahib #189: Thanks. Hamidm is becoming lazy in his old age and simply posting re-runs. :-(

#188 hamidm:
You have every right to contradict me.
You have the right to contradict common sense.
You have even the right to contradict today what you said yesterday.

But..(drum roll, cries of "Allah o Akbar")..you have no right to contradict yourself in the same very post!

Thus, I reject your post #188 as negating itself through self-contradiction. i.e. you start with "i have not surrendered islam to the mullahs" and then proceed to detail your unconditional surrender to the mullahs the right to define Islam.

hamidm#188:

Will this comedy ever end? you keep asking the same question and, by now, even I know what tahmed's saheb answer would be.

BTW, I am sure others have suggested that alif-lam-meem mean ilm or knowledge. Why is this not acceptable? [it could also be the arabic version of AUM [this is to please laddu bhai :) ].

Re: # 179

tahmed,

.... i have not surrendered islam to the mullahs, i am waiting for you to complete your version of islam ......

..... look, this is a silly argument that the mullahs don't speak for islam - they are the 'experts' in this field and if they don't, then who does ?...... most of the ummah cannot read in their own language - leave alone arabic - so how can they speak for islam or anything else ...... the mantra that islam has been hijacked by the mullahs is nothing but a hollow slogan riased by well meaning, but clueless, people like you ...... most muslims take their cue from the ulema and since most of them are illiterate and ignorant they tend to follw them blindly ...... unlike most of the catholics who listen to what the man in the silly hat and frock has to say but then use their own common sense and judgement ......

.... so lets see what you have to offer and then we will talk .... till then the mullahs rule

masadi mian,

..... when i was growing up my mother used to tell us that the 'lachis' (gypsies) kidnapped little children and ate them .....

..... then there was this cousin - a jamatia creature like you - who refused to shake hands with a nacirema ..... and like you, he ended up in america, working for the white man but hating him at the same time and now lives on social security form the us government ......

..... in the first case, my mother (god bless her soul) just didn't know better and cannot be blamed for her irrational prejudice .... on the other hand, my cousin - like you - is a shameless hypocrite ...... there is a major difference between the two

masadi mian,

.... and one more thing - i for one, recognize satire when i see it ....... you cannot pull the same thing twice ...........

.... the nacirema might not be real, but moslems are .....

Re: # 180

masadi mian,

.... i think that the muslim ritual of allowing a man to share his bed with four 'wives', fourteen concubines and a boy is much more 'exotic' than anything the poor nacirema can come up with - crowded, but exotic ..... what about the islamic tradition of burying women alive as practiced in balucistan and sind ?.... and what about the silly ritual of starving yourself for a month which is going on as we speak ? .....

Tahmed sahib, thank you for your kind and gracious response, how are you doing btw?

Maybe we can discuss these issues later, this experiment is interesting and some time should be allotted before I say something.

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

Distinguished and Most Gracious Mr. Masadi: i never heard of women baking their heads in small ovens. is this a spa of some kind?

Nishadha:

No help from Google either.

What is the relevance of the Nacirema to any of the criticism's against Islam you say, well keep thinking...

Hamid writes "... i think the nacirema are less weird than the moslems ..... have you ever seen them bang their head on the floor five times a day and torture their ankles?"

Hamid mian, who taught you how to pray? I have never seen any Muslim "bang" his head and only if his fat a$$ is hard for his ankles to hold will they be "tortured" to sit or do the sajda. In fact the ritual of the Nacirema are quite exotic compared to a simple sajda by the Muslim. Don't you think this one regarding their women:


Special women's rites are performed only four times during each lunar month, but what they lack in frequency is made up in barbarity. As part of this ceremony, women bake their heads in small ovens for about an hour. The theoretically interesting point is that what seems to be a preponderantly masochistic people have developed sadistic specialists.

hamidm #170 "..... and then there is this whole question of war, strife, famine, plague, babies dying of cancer, head lice and tahmed ....."

tsk! tsk! such bitterness towards poor tahmed. even after i solved your difficult problem of what to do with alif, laam, meem.

As for your determination to surrender islam to the mullahs by claiming that what mullahs say is what islam says - i can understand that now. after all, you dont get to be Lota Hamidm by being merely honest.

Mike, have you heard the parable of the little lamb that fell in love with a long-toothed fox?

To Whom It May Concern:

It is easy to hate and it is difficult to love. This is how the whole scheme of things works. All good things are difficult to achieve; and bad things are very easy to get.
Confucius

Re: # 173

masadi mian,

.... i think the nacirema are less weird than the moslems ..... have you ever seen them bang their head on the floor five times a day and torture their ankles? .... that, my friend, is much harder to understand ....

Re #174, Hamid I don't think you have either the brains or the morals to come to any conclusions regarding "God", with special emphasis on the "brains" part.

Re: # 172

masadi mian,

... don't put words in my mouth - i never said god does not exist ..... i just think he is incompetent, a slouch, a bum and a reprobate who is high on bad hooch and peyote pakoras .....

Your short comments on the Nacirema and what you think of them will be appreciated. Thank you kindly,

TNI Masadi

hamid writes "..... and then there is this whole question of war, strife, famine, plague, babies dying of cancer, head lice and tahmed ....."

And what do you want to do about those things, close your eyes and invoke the "Great American Dream" to solve those problems and rubbish the efforts of those who want to uncover the "causes"? Or better still remove the real culprits from any blame and blame a God you say doesn't exist! Very convenient don't you think? So, science is ok where it concerns disproving "God" but where it concerns positive evidence for such a "thing"~ possibly similar to how scientists perceive "dark matter and energy" is "real" and "exists", you say "NO, it cannot be done". I say, you all are closer to the mullah then either you or CIA mike would like to admit...

Have a nice day, and get a brain, brain farts wont do....

TNI Masadi

CIA mike writes to hamid "This is the funniest f.... post I have ever read. You should be a SNL writer."

CIA mike how goes? Found some piece of garbage and want to expand its worth just because it fits in with what you dumb mentality and its prejudice. If you want "funny" read this

Body Ritual among the Nacirema
https://www.msu.edu/~jdowell/miner.html

Let us see how smart you and your pal Hamid are to discover just how relevant this is to your sorry cases...

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 160

masadi mian,

..... you mean to tell me that it has been three years since i have been stuck on alif laam meem? .... damn! .... how time flies when you are pondering the divine navel ..... the muslim ummah has been pondering those three words for fifteen hundred years and they are still waiting for tahmed to explain it to them ...... some of them are so frustrated by those words that they have taken to blowing themselves up and beheading others .......

.... masadi mian, i am a deeply spiritual man and i would really really like to believe in god or the spaghetti monster if they would give me a reason - all i need is a sign .... anything ... i am afraid of things that go bump in the night, but i just can't be afraid of a god who threatens you with fire and brimstone and wants you to pray to him five times a day and kill goats and go out and kill hindoos ...... i don't like the horrible hindoos and i don't care much for goats either, but i just can't go out and kill these poor miserable creatures just because he wants me to ...... it is really that simple .... and then there is this whole question of war, strife, famine, plague, babies dying of cancer, head lice and tahmed .....

quin ji

I disagree with your views, and your analyses/explanations are extremely wishy-washy, but you seem to be a sincere person trying to do good in your own apolitical way. You come across more a poet than anything else. When people are not locked in a political fight, differences large or small don't matter.

-------------

With your poetic gifts, your sensitive soul, and your passion for your views, you may be able to do much. Just avoid the pitfall of spending most of your time merely preaching to the converted, or convining people who are not your real opponents. Whatever I or any other unbeliver/outsider actually think of your approach is immaterial, so long as you have these wonderfully apolitical set of goals.

-------------------

mike, are you new here? If you found that funny, then you don't know what you have missed from hamidm earlier.

#145
Hamidm:

This is the funniest f.... post I have ever read. You should be a SNL writer.

I have a question for you about methods employed by Colonel Rodgers (1899-1902 Islamic insurgencies in the Philippines). I understand Russian security forces used such methods to deter potential Chechen terrorists from future attacks.

tahmed writes "to save islam from the grip of the mullah"

As long as the global capitalist system ensures that the vast majority of people living in Muslim majority lands are kept uneducated, with no state support, the Mullah will keep his hold on the masses. Those that benefit from this setup, the capitalist elite and their employed (by proxy) Mullah will always win the battle if you merely rely on "newspapers" etc, which is an unintelligent way to combat the Mullah. But since tahmed sahib is in support of the structure that maintains the Mullah, is he really sincere in his advocacy of "rescuing" Islam from the grip of the Mullah. Certainly the psycho-solutions of the Sohail variety only help the Mullah and do nothing to loosen his grip on Islam...

Cheema sahib, everyone can improve and I certainly can but that improvement does not imply I move towards the direction of sellouts and dimwits, rather it is a move in the other direction. Hope that answers your question,

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 159 dear cheema sb.,
It was not me who said, "iko alif taray darkar"
Bulley Shah said it. And of course you understand what this metaphor means. Or you really don't?

I won't even try to explain that because if every metaphor could be explained why there will be metaphors in the first place. Why there will be need for figurative language. Why there would be poetry, music and art.
Personaly for me, this metaphor of Bulley Shah is like a an ocean which knows no bounds but I don't consider it an imperative for me to explain it.

If we cannot appreciate this type of metaphor, and only find it fit for reidicule, what can we understand of the mythical and mystical language of Quran?

But just to give a hint to those who can take, I quoted Theorue earlier who said, knowledge comes in flashes - (of course without detail there is no knowledge) - but what is the catalyst for those flashes - that which systhesize and internalize the details into knowledge?

Regarding 'alif laam meem' - I recall part of a story of a student (seeker), who went to learn from a Buddhist monk. Serving him the tea, the monk kept filling it while it was overflowing. The seeker brought his attention to it and the monk said, if your cup is already full how can I give you more.

Re: # 158 Eklavya bhai,
many thanks for your kind words. I agree about my logic - rather you labeling it as logic shows your generosity - in fact it is not logic at all.
As I said earlier somewhere, if all we need is logic, then we probably don't need literature, and other arts. Where linear and logical thinking ends, that is where these other modes of expressions start. And that is why I said my voice is a voice of loner.
My post about 'The God Delusion' was not as much addressed to doubters, as per your term, but more to express my anger at believers. So I don't know why you are advising me to not waste time on doubters. Second, even the so called believers can be doubters too. Without doubt, there is no authentic faith. Who can examplify that more than the founder of monotheism Prophet Abarahm. He was the biggest doubter. These are all paradoxes and with our logical mind which just want to see the black and white, we cannot see the nature of these paradoxes. So I waste not time on anything.
The preassumption built in your advise is as I am trying to convert anyone to a certain view point. That keep coming again and again, and I have to repeat it that I am just expressing what I feel strongly. And by some fluke I found Chowk as a venue to give expression to those feelings / sentiments / pardoxical ideas, whatever you can call it.
I hope you are not saying that Chowk is not a place for expression of this sort, so I should not be here. Won't that come under exclusivity we so hate in religion?
Or this time, I am misreading you, as at occasions you have misread me.

#163 chowk has too few "eyes" looking at it to be useful for any efforts at the national (let alone international) level to save islam from the grip of the mullah. you should chose a newspaper/tv etc. with greater readership or viewership.

as long as you dont surrender islam to mullahs and chose to use your own common sense - you are doing fine anyway.

Re: # 148 tahmed23,
good points, though I am past 2 & 3 stage and do not subscribe to Geo anyway.
But point about not bashing Islam and bringing its good aspects to the fore so that mullahs' grip may be weakened is very important.
I will keep looking to find some platform to contribute - and still wondering if a venue like Chowk can be of any help.

Re: # 148 tahmed23,
good points, though I am past 2 & 3 stage and do not subscribe to Geo anyway.
But point about not bashing Islam and bringing its good aspects to the fore so that mullahs' grip may be weakened is very important.
I will keep looking to find some platform to contribute - and still wondering if a venue like Chowk can be of any help.

Re: # 160; masadi sahib

whatever happened to the TNI sir? no need anymore?

one quick question ..... does acknowledgement and ownership of the TNI title imply that there WAS a need/room for "newness" and "improvement"?

Regards.

will check your response later

hamid writes "..however, i got stuck on 'alif laam meem' ..... can you explain to me what that is all about so that i can move "

Three years back he made the exact same comment on the thread of one of my articles. HP answered him, asking him to move on from there and not make excuses, yet after three years he repeats the same in order to delude and deceive, providing empirical evidence for the part in the book that says that for those whose hearts have been sealed (due to their perversions) will find no guidance. Hamid mian, you're wasting your time reading the book, a more worthwhile spending of time for you would be to read the labels off those cans/bottles you buy for the purpose of self-stupification.......trying to pass yourself off as a Homer Simpson wont work, after all you are not the right skin color in that land of hypocrisy and racism...

Re: # 154; hamidm sahib
[[just tell me what alif, lam, meem means]]

Sir I can't help you on that personally but quin sahib here tells me one can forget about the "lam and meem" quite safely .........

......... according to him "ikko 'alif' tere darkaar"! ..... now it would be his turn to tell us all what that "alif" is??

thanks for the latest in the al-lah/gabby saga sir!

Khuda Hafiz for now

quin ji

You seem to be genuinely interested in bringing about a change (as you think necessary) among Muslims.

Sincere best wishes. Many of us might find your logic pretty weak, but good people have never been stopped by others who accused them of being illogical. So don't waste your time on us doubters, and march ahead, as you would like to. May you have much success.

(Yours is not a lone voice.)

I can make a fool understand the whole world, but can not make a believer understand a single new word. Believers simply eat reasoning and digest it very well.

Father of Albert Einstein

hamidm: hmmm...no more religious questions? there must be some problem i can fix for you!!

#154 that means you skip it.

(they dont pay me by the word on chowk to answer your religious question, so excuse the brief answer).

Re: # 152

tahmed,

.... okay, forget about the sex part - that obviously is out of your league .... just tell me what 'alif laam meem' means so that i can go on with my home study program .....

thank you for your guidance

#151 you obviously never had an empty stomach.

hamidm #150 you are a big boy now, and dont need my guidance on when to have sex. if you still have this urge for guidance, send your question in to some TV mullah - they love such questions.

Re: # 150 Posted by hamidm2 on September 17, 2008 12:31:45 pm

hamid mian,

[.. i am particularly interested in finding out if you can have sex after sehri before the azan ..]

How can you have sex with a full stomach? Usually people have sex first and then the food part comes. Did you not know how we desis function? No wonder...

Re: # 148

tahmed,

.... i tried to follow your advice and started reading the blessed manual (no, i wasn't looking for the reciepe for a suicide vest) ...... however, i got stuck on 'alif laam meem' ..... can you explain to me what that is all about so that i can move on an ..... i am particularly interested in finding out if you can have sex after sehri before the azan .......

thank you for your guidance ....

quin: so those are some thoughts. if you wish to spend the time and effort needed to organize a movement, hope these ideas will prove helpful. if not, then at least we are living our own lives as our common sense tells us we should, not the way some paid flunky on TV or in the mosque wearing a beard or hijab says we should.

quin #142 any organized movement to separate the mullah's grip on Islam, and to bring the focus back on the core message of Islam (admirably encapsulated in your phrase that I quoted below) would require a commitment of time and effort.

As for ideas, I can only relate some things I did in my own for myself over the past 20-30 years (as opposed to trying to fix society at large):

1. Use the RTBM (Read the Blessed Manual) rule: Read the Quran carefully in order to satisfy yourself that you are on the right track (as encapsulated in your abovementioned sentence). The focus on acting in accordance. Dont think that by re-reading the Quran you are doing God any favors - contrary to popular belief, re-reading the Quran does not win you brownie points any more than memorizing the book on swimming wins you olympic gold medals.

2. Dont waste time trying to understand Islam as narrated by "aalims" on TV, in khutbas, dars etc. Their livelihood depends on making a meal out of it.

3. Keep an eye on your children going to sunday school: I have seen a number of parents live to regret having sent their children to sunday school where the semi-literate maulvi will teach them his jahil mindset in the guise of "islam". One couple had their daughter start wearing a hijab as a result of sunday school, and no amount of reasoning by her mother has had any effect.

Speak up when you can to loosen the mullah's grip on Islam: Certainly the TV and internet are two media that have proved their effectiveness in Pakistan in a different context (i.e. in broadcasting the lawyer's movement that resulted in the end of musharraf's grip on Pakistan). So, let Geo know that you are stop your subscription. Dont just say "Islam is bad" (as Hamidm does, e.g.) since that self-defeating because it merely validates the mullah's grip on islam.

In #146 Posted by pinku on September 17,
"Even religions themselves should have been evolving... " this line was dropped...

#144 Posted by quin on September 17
That is a wrong assumption.

Let’s be bold again and let’s be arrogant once again, amen…. In the name of God all unkown, yet to be known


These assumptions are made and even protected because we don't try to understand concepts but rely on terms. Science is tomorrow’s religion. It does and will cover theory of God, philosophy is tomorrow’s religion, psychology is tomorrow’s religion. And all of them give better scriptures then religious books. All of them are clearer than scriptures. And all of them satisfy your other dimension of extending to infinity by keeping things open. And what is the proof that they do provide you that dimension, proof lies in the number of people/philosophers/scientists who believe in God but not in religions. All of them have much solid dimension that a common person.

So that lady, despite her great academic background doesn’t accept the fact that world keep on changing. We evolve, ideas evolve, we do not remain monkeys for ever.

She is for religion and haven't thought what can or is replacing it. She under-estimates intelligence and its evolution both.


Ideas evolve, so God outside of the context of these religions is evolution of this Godly idea. Even religions themselves should have b

The proof lies in how US, which is and was very religious society is moving away from religion. Their polls/census all show the shift and how significant it is. So far Christians call them athiests, though most of them simply do not believe in religion and are not against idea of God. Pope is begging in his great empire for people to remain theists (again a term deliberately misused, they mean stick to religion, not God).

Again, till it happens people will not believe it. World is more amazing then what we want it to be, it is much more changing and those fixed dimensions need to evolve. Nature will not let them stay there for long. In all probability, we are close to the time where idea of God completes a circle and comes out of evil clutches of religion and moves to new area of science of philosophy for general masses. Some day you will again get into some fixed ideas for long and then some other day they will again evolve.


Those who want to support status-quo because of their ego deceive themselves first and other later. I can write much more and I do not have high enough status to engage with those people and to argue against their ideas-cum-beliefs. But here on chowk so far I have that luxury and I am humbly misusing itï?Š Believe me I a more humble than religious people, who know what God is and what he wantsï?Š

god's delusion ........




gabby (preening his wings with his beak): al-lah mian, this stuff is really bad ....... i think it is time for me to make another trip to earth ...... this time i suggest you send me to the south of france so that i can pick up some decent wine ......... i really don’t understand your fascination with the bedouins ....... why do you keep on sending prophets to a people who can’t even make a decent drink ...... pass me a pakora ........by the way, do you know that people on earth are saying that you are delusional ?

al-lah: ........ please

gabby: please what ?

al-lah (sighing and looking at gabby with his single eye in the forehead): “please pass me a pakora� ........ gabby, just because you are my favorite angel does not mean that you get to forget your manners ....... now say, please .....

gabby: oh, puleeese !

al-lah: that’s better ........ now, what were you saying about me being delusional ...... i know that i drink too much and eat too many of these pakoras but i am certainly not delusional .......chitrali ?

gabby: heck, no ..... your warriors in swat have sealed off chitral and now all we get is this stuff from the hills around bari imam ..... those malangs at bari imam are the only people who really love you and think you are not delusional ........

al-lah(looking a little cross ): okay! ....... who thinks I am delusional and why ? ........ and how do they know i am delusional – i have never shown myself to any man other than mo of mecca – and what a mistake that was ..... just because the man had an audience with me he began to think that he was the best of the prophets and the last one ..... now that is delusional! ...... who? who? ...... who thinks i am delusional !

gabby (taking a sip from his styrofoam cup): al-mian, why can’t we drink out of the crystal glasses – are you saving them for a special occasion ? ..... look, we haven’t had company since mo ..... you did not want to invite joe smith, guru nanak and mirza ghulam ahmed because of your prejudice against non-bedouin prophets .....

al-lah: gabby, you are going off on a tangent again, me-damn-it! who is calling me delusional ? ...... i want to know now !

gabby: jesus christ ! ...... calm down ..... for one, there is hamidm ...... he thinks you are delusional because you think that you are a bigger and better god than the spaghetti monster and his homosexual lover ......

al-lah : don’t take my son’s name in vain ...... and i didn’t know that the spaghetti monster is a homo; heck , i don’t even know who is this the spaghetti monster ..... and you know that i know everything, i created everything, i am omnipotent and omnipresent and i have the power to create and the power to destroy !

gabby (looking a little bored and preening his left wing with his beak): all right, all right ........ calm down ..... for your sake, i know that you have not been created and cannot be destroyed , but you are about to blow a vein ..... look, al-lah mian, this spaghetti monster is just another one of your avatars – like the elephant nosed ganesh and the seven armed kali and the flute player Krishna and his girlfriend radha and ......

al-lah: (looking a little vary and confused) : i know all that gabby, i was there ...... i wish i had just sent down a single prophet to those darn hindoos like I did to the bedouins ...... but the hindoos are slow learners and have a flair for the dramatic, so i had to put on silly makeup and go down myself to do what a ten cent prophet could have done ...... i really hated it when i had to dress in drag and play radha ......

gabby: ..... hey, allah mian… that was neat! ..... how did you manage to be krishna and radha at the same time ? .....

al-lah (ruffling gabby’s father with his sixth finger): gabby, i can do anything if i want to do it ...... i can be at many places at the same time or be nowhere .... i can be here, there and everywhere ......

gabby: but that was just too freaky! ..... it was like watching a ball of mercury split and not split at the same time … al-lah mian, you are the greatest ...... awesome !...... i wish your daughters could have seen that – they would have more respect for you .....

al-lah (with a sad look on his face) : let’s not talk about lat and manat – i sent those girls down to mecca to stand in for me and what did they do ? ..... they let mo run them out of town ..... i tell you that prophet was on some kind of a power trip – totally out of control, if you ask me !....... but, i still don’t remember dressing up as the spaghetti monster ..... when did i do that?

gabby (holding up a peyote pakora) : al-lah mian, you need to lay off these .... you had to be the spaghetti monster because you are the only game in the universe ...... unless there is a parallel universe out there .......

al-lah: stop that nonsense! ...... there is no parallel universe ..... and if there was i would know about it because i create everything .......

gabby (rolling his eyes and muttering): yea, sure ......

al-lah: what was that ? ...... are you suggesting that I am delusional ? … after all I have done for you; fired iblees and made you the chief angel, trusted you with my messages to imbeciles, guaranteed eternal employment with great benefits and a health and dental plan ......

gabby (wrapping his wing around al-lah): oh come, al-lah mian ...... i didn’t mean to hurt your feelings ..... you know how it is; people talk – some say you don’t exist, others like hamidm think you are delusional and then there are those who think you are incompetent ..... these people are ignorant and they know not what they say … maybe we should speed up the timetable for armageddon and let them have it ...... that will teach them!

al-lah mian (beaming): come her gabby, we can’t do that – you know i have a plan for everything and just as we won’t sell any wine before it is time, we will not destroy the earth until we are ready - although i am a little worried about that haldron thing down in france ..... these fools might manage to destroy the world themselves and suck it up into a black hole ......

gabby (looking a little worried): .... but you can take things out of a black hole, can’t you?

al-lah (his single blue eye twinkling): i can do anything ..... i can even be the spaghetti monster

Re: # 138 & 143: pinku
No matter how much we wish, we cannot just "dilute" the presence of the scriptures in human life. The reason is that they satisfy our existential needs like no other thing does. We can only hope to have a better understanding. I am copying below another of my interact, where I elaborated on this idea a bit:

"How to approach religion is not a topic which can be settled in one sitting - or in one life for that matter.

One thing is sure, that it is never going to be resolved until people want to see things only with their linear thinking - in yes or no, in black and white, in right and wrong. Often the answer lies beyond the categories. The ‘kuans’ of Buddhism were meant to bring that reality closer to us.

There are many who have approached the Sacred Scriptures in a transcendental way. They don't find that it conflicts with their reason or logic. If I tell about my own approach, I may be blamed for being apologist of this or that. So I want to give example of Karen Armstrong. A non-religious scholar, trained in best tradition of academia, and then in her seeking she find wisdom in ancient scriptures. She studies them all, she contemplate on them and do research and write books. That is an interesting story worth knowing and following. Here I present an excerpt from her book "In the Beginning":

“In almost all cultures, scripture has been one of the tools that men and women have used to apprehend a dimension that transcends their normal lives. People have turned to their holy books not to acquire information but to have experience. They have encountered a reality there that goes beyond their normal existence but endows it with ultimate significance. They have given this transcendence different names ….., however we choose to describe or interpret it, it has been a fact of human life. We are constantly are of an ideal level that contrasts with world around us. We may not regard this realm as supernatural; we may prefer to find it in art, music or poetry rather than in a church or synagogue. But human being have persistently sought a dimension of existence that seems close to our normal lives and yet far from them. Scared scripture has been one of the principle means of introducing people to a world of ultimate truth, beauty and goodness.�

The key point is experience. She continues:

“But we have to know how to read our scriptures. They demand an imaginative effort that can sometimes be as perplexing and painful as Jacob’s wrestling match. The true meaning of scripture can never be wholly comprised in a literal reading of the text, since that text point beyond itself to a reality which cannot adequately be expressed in words and concepts. …..�
“… Scriptures … enabled millions of men and women to know at some profound level that human life has an eternal dimension, even though they have not always been able to express this insight in logical, rational form. [Scriptures] imply that it is a hard struggle to discern a sacred reality in the flawed and tragic conditions in which we live and that our experience will often be disconcerting or contradictory. Like Jacob, we will have to wrestle in the dark, denied the consolations of final certitude and experiencing at best only transient, elusive blessing. We may even find that we have been wounded in the course of our struggle�

The last sentence is reference to Biblical event of Jacob’s wrestling with God.

No matter how much we wish that scriptures either disappear, or read only one way or other, their reality defies will keep defying us all. We must learn to come to terms with it. And that is going to take a long time. Very long."

Add #138 Posted by pinku on ,

People in west, like Richard Dawkins and others are already challanging the "word of God" thing openly. Only Islam is capable of killing anybody who challanges its "word of God". The problem is because even the educated in Islam do not have sufficient number who can accept this. Even they somehow cling back to "book is good" people are stupid. Which is their problem. Understand, accept and then comunicate that "book" is not needed.

Re: # 139
sir, would you consider that forming a group(pressure group) through the medium of Chowk comprising of people who want to stem this path of destruction by terrorism and religio-zealots, can be an idea.
The objective will be to pressurize the new government into implementing such policies as you mentioned, legislature against religious or otherwise (ethnic) incitement, hate mongering and intolerance preaching.
Also, to put pressure on media. Maybe others can come up with ideas about other measures.
Can it be done? I am just throwing wild idea. I believe that our intelligentsia, especially the people settle in West who have access to more intellectual as well as physical resources can play an important role in that. Does not mean that other fine people I have seen settle in the Middle East and also, from the sub-continent cannot play their role. All those who wish to contribute towards this effort can do their part, but we need to develop leadership within the intelligentsia.
How we do organized such campaigns through the internet / Chowk?
Any ideas?

nycoolest #135 trust a mullah to come up with sexual implications to pillion-riding!! maybe that is why pillion-riding is the favored method for sectarian killings in Pakistan (pillion riding has actually been banned a couple of times as an anti-terrorist effort, that is how popular it became with the mullahs).

Re: # 136 khurram,
A point to contemplate. I like the notion of mediation of "spiritual experience to the cultural situation."
But it needs a lot of watching - 'taqwa'. Life's is thorny path.
Need more study on that aspect. Thanks

#135 I have seen enough of them to know what they are saying
it is basically superstition and/or plain stupidity masquerading as islam. E.g. (one woman spent an hour describing how the hadith says the prophet went to bed, how he dusted the bed with his left hand to ensure he would not kill any odd ant that might be there (she actually said that, and in a very saintly manner!), how he slept on his right side.

One can certainly try the email method you mention. Thus, e.g., in UK, after the bus bombings they finally moved against the mullahs by passing legislation to make "incitement to violence" a criminal act. It took the booting out of just a couple of mullahs from UK for these rogues to stop misusing mosques to encourage terrorist acts by harping on "muslim victimization" and other political bs.

Re #131 Posted by quin on September

That is good. You are doing the right thing in your own ways. It may be difficult for you to understand what I am doing?? I am not justifying Kuran, I am saying that Kuran and initial Islamic conquests and thier mode are at the root of problem not those muslims. Your short cut to portray Kuran in right light of yours will help, so unless you can do anything better that is the best thing to do.


But the root of the problem is adhering to Kuran and not its interpretation. DILUTE this adherence, no amount of interpretations will help. Dilute the need for religion between God and man. Kuran is religion not God. You already have several interpretations of it, you have several translations, you can give many others but they will get blurred with each passing day (and sooner than you think). If you have to give a better interpretation you have to write a new Kuran, purge its verses that are not good. The way Turkey is probably trying to do. Otherwise hoping for improvement is mere hope while you arbitrarily ignore things.




Bottom line is dilute religion, don't just give people another reason to stick to it and if we don't understand why, then we should first discuss that.

Tell people that Theism and Atheism exist without religion, tell them that you don't need those fake "word of God".

On a mass scale this is the fastest way if you give proper reason. Proper reason is the reason why no book can be word of God. Tell that why and get big people in line first. Get educated people in line first. Challanage those who for their evil egos or purpose say that "any book is word of God". Force educated people to say it publicly.


This is something that will have some intial hurdle but this will spread like wild-fire. Just tell them that you can love/worship God without needing to rely on any book.

That is what I am doing, here..

I am sitting on choraha of yours and am biting whoevere comes close to me, like a dog. But I can't do it for long:-)

Tahmed Bhai, I used to visit my cusions in rawalpindi. came to know that the mullah of mohallay ki masjid declared the mortorcycle shaitani ride as the riders may have ibleesi thoughts when getting in close contact with each other....Same kinda jaali fatwas were passed for loud TV and images but then they bend rules for their propogation. There is no limit to their stupidity.

Re: #129 quin
Your work on the Quran is extremely worthy and I look forward to more of it.
But, please don't dismiss theology. Theology is what mediates spiritual experience to the cultural situation.
Insofar as you do that, you DO have a theology, even if it is unconventional or new.
Bad theology is one that gets disconnected from the spiritual core. You can replace bad theology with good theology but not with no theology. That is just a fantasy.

Re: # 134
worth considering - but then how we know what they are saying and doing. That is where the media problem comes. Maybe new government is made to realize that it is important to stop hate mongering for the stability of the country and region.
Maybe a e-mail campaign just like the one referred in post #69.

further to #132: the problem we have, of course, is that mullahs are using TV like Geo to propogate their BS, just as they misuse loudspeakers in Pakistan to shove their azaan down everyone's ears.

With summer over and Pakistan "loadshedding refugees" back in Pakistan, I plan to stop subscription to Geo and write to them to let them know why - they are being used to propagate mullahism. This is one thing expat Pakistanis can do to save Islam from mullahs - take away the TV from them.

#132 agreed on the other "games" - "bearded politicians" of the mullah fazloo stripe play their game which is to gain political power; "bearded bandits" of the taliban stripe play their game, which is to carve out a piece of turf for themselves; plain old "bearded students" of the jamaatiya type play their game which is to bully other students.

no need to anguish though - as a muslim, I find it quite easy to deal with these "bearded" hooligans of various stripes - all I tell them in effect is "RTBM" (Read The Blessed Manual") then talk to me. Then I watch them squirm and disappear (there used to be a lot more on chowk, but now urstruly is the last jamaatiya around, and you may wish to try this out with him).

Re: # 130 tahmed32:
"Organized religion", "theology" and so forth are merely ways to make bucks." and relish in their egos and narcissism, ... (and then there are deeper games too)

well said sir, I am so glad to hear that there are others who think this way.

I have not read all the archived material on Chowk. It is so much and the time is premium with day job and all that.

But the anguish is overwhelming too, so we have to keep tilling ... thank you for your words.

Re: # 128 pinku,
Finally, someone said the words, the root cause of the problem. Amen
So let's talk about that.
What is it?
How religion became to so dominate our culture and politics?
What are the other factors in the equation.
How can we identify?
Once we identify, what we can do about it.
Every single person is in their unique situation. Not every one is a social activists. How different people can contribute.
Or maybe, we even don't need to do as much analysis, and rather just do what we can.
I am doing my work in my own way which I trust will help understand Quran in a light which will weakens the case of fundamentalism.
I refer here another effort done on similar lines. The following is copied with slight modification from another paper I read at a seminar.

"An article titled “Koranic Duels Ease Terrors� appeared in the Christian Science Monitor some time ago. It describes the efforts of Yemeni Judge Hamoud al-Hitar to bring peace to his troubled country by challenging terrorists of Al-Quaida to enter into dialogue with him. According to the article, Hitar challenges Al-Quaida activists to a verbal duel by proposing: "If you can convince us that your ideas are justified by the Koran, then we will join you in your struggle, but if we succeed in convincing you of our ideas, then you must agree to renounce violence."

Now, two years later, … relative peace reigns in Yemen. … Western experts who doubted this experiment are courting Hitar, eager to hear how his "theological dialogues" with captured Islamic militants have helped pacify this wild and mountainous country previously seen by the US as a failed state like Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Yemen's strategy has been unconventional certainly, but it has achieved results that we could never have hoped for," says one European diplomat. …Hitar explains that his system is simple. He invites militants to use the Koran to justify attacks on innocent civilians and when they cannot, he shows them numerous passages commanding Muslims not to attack civilians, to respect other religions, and fight only in self-defense. He uses the passages to bolster his argument against bombing Western targets in Yemen - attacks he says defy the Koran … (and its teaching that ) … under no circumstances should women and children be killed. If, after weeks of debate, the prisoners renounce violence they are released and offered vocational training courses and help to find jobs.�

Hitar says, "along with acknowledging freedom of expression, intellect and opinion, you must listen and show interest in what the other party is saying."… He says that most militants are ordinary people who have been led astray. Just as they were taught Al Qaeda's doctrines, … so too can they be taught more moderate ideas. "If you study terrorism in the world, you will see that it has an intellectual theory behind it," says Hitar. "And any kind of intellectual idea can be defeated by intellect."
What Hitar has said in his above interview, touches upon the central point which I want to present ..."
For full article pl see:
http://familyofheart.com/05/Dec112005/Presentation_AMM.htm

quin #129 " I am just content to deal with what comes my way and keep my space clean and serve others (humanity) where I can."

That basically is it in a nutshell. "Organized religion", "theology" and so forth are merely ways to make bucks.

you say "My voice is voice of a loner."

Only if you are surrounded by religious nuts. I, e.g., have been harping on this theme for years on chowk. Mr. Masadi (with whose views I dont always agree) is pretty much saying this on religious issues too.

Re: # 127 khurram,
For me spirituality is the true religion, though this does not stand to the argument that religion is what it is at the ground. I understand that.

I am not a theologian and nor wish to be one - true religion does not need any theology. We are in a mess because of theologies. Prophet did not come with theologies. Those were later developed for expediency. I have nothing to do with that. And neither I wish to train myself in that discipline. There are more important things to work upon, for example, sociology of violence, economics of information age and so on and so forth. If I had a few more lives, I may do some of that. But in this short life I could not. I am just content to deal with what comes my way and keep my space clean and serve others (humanity) where I can. That is all my spirituality is about. Not the black hole of theology which sucks everything in and where everything of worth is lost forever.

I have given my personal opinions without shying away from anything and I don't want to go to all the references on the interacts or iLogs where I have expressed it so. I don't have any system for religion in mind so that I can present it as my interpretation. All I am saying is that when the religion is seen in its totality, we can discern that the basis of hatred, intolerance, and bigotry is against the true spirit of religion. When it is seen that what the fountainheads of each religion were trying to achieve, when it is seen that what was the angst and anguish of the fountainheads of all great religions, then we can see that there is no basis for exclusivity, not of hatred. Their angst stemmed from love of humanity - a strange love - not easily understood, and that is why they were often persecuted. Now, if we persecute anyone,it is like turning religion on its head.

My voice is voice of a loner. And I have no misgiving about if it will be heard correctly or not. I will keep saying what I have to say but I harbour not the notion that it will be heard or listened to.

I feel that the general pathos of Muslim psyche have turned to be exactly the type of pathos which Quran wanted to correct. Only if we can see that in Quran. Anyway, I hope that my work on the renditions Quran will help highlight the spiritual aspect of it. And that's all I can hope to contribute.

Thanks anyway for your 'always' succinct and decent remarks.

Re #127 Posted by khurram on

That is right. What matters is how those who spill blood and will spill more (of any religion) can be made to exchange floweers, not us. We all can exchange nice words/flowers/bouquet and can stop discussing bad things but that won't stop any fight anywhere.

Even if we try our best things will not solve in one day.

so let's be bold once again, amen (just talking about letters:-), not people)

No amount of management, no amount of effort can solve a problem till you identify it properly.

To solve a problem you need three things at least:

1. Identify issue (root cause)
2. find a solution
3. Manage/execute this solution

As you see, if you skip the first, you siply can not do the next two.

For social problems, soonerorlater system itself will give you enough clues to see the root cause, but you should be open to analysis/understanding.



another attempt at being idiotically bols



Theoretically, we should talk to top religious leaders say Pope etc and force them to accept that religionis not needed. But you know how dangerous it is? What I have told URSTRULY should be told to POPE and top Maulanas or Shankracharya. Convine them and then communicate it to peddlers or comon people.

So tell Pope and Maulanas that we need God without religion, can you please step aside??? Give them bouquet or may be bribe if they need?? Rehabilitate the top order if needed (though they have ore money they will rehabilitate us at mere suggestion:-))

quin,
If you are distressed by the 'wrong interpretation of religion', you should at least offer your version of the 'right' interpretation of religion.
Instead, you shy away from 'religion' and seek refuge in 'spirituality' .

Re: # 94 NDocR Thanks for participating. Your point well taken.

Please see my post #124 and # 41 where I have expressed my concern that most of the interactors have gone on tangents, misunderstanding what I am trying to convey. As I said, misinterpretation of religion and its misuse in the hands of vested interests is fanning the flames of regional conflicts and bringing havoc to that part of the world. To reiterate, I am blaming wrong interpretation of religion contributing to an already volatile state of affairs caused by various socio-politico-economic factors. We need to set our priorities right.

The fight is not between which religion is true or not, and neither we need to fight to death for atheism vs. theism, what our intelligentsia need to reflect on and debate is that what is the way out of this mayhem. As you so rightly said, a forum like Chowk can be instrumental in that only if we can figure out our priorities. We get worked up, sucked into peripherals and trifles and ignore the monster which is staring us squarely in our eyes. I came to Chowk hoping to contribute my penny’s worth in that direction. We can only hope. I appreciate your effort for bringing this angle into focus.

I understand the housing market collapse was also caused by religion - people bought houses they couldnt afford because they were sure they would find 72 virgins in the basement. Hamidm can explain the details on how this works.

Re: # 112 Urstrly wrote:
"Now take this article, eg., it takes the position that since all the war and mayhem is caused by religion therefore religion is bad and hence must be discarded (or there is no God). The basic premis of this argument that " all the war and mayhem is caused by religion " has no basis at all. ...."

To clarify, my so called article, (I call it a poem in prose) does not argue AT ALL the way it has interpreted in above lines. It does not argue anything. It just expresses the pain which comes from seeing the mayhem which is (in part) caused by the wrong interpretation of religion.

The reasons for the mess we are seeing in that part of the world are many (socio-economic and political) but wrong interpretation of religion is fanning the flames. We cannot come out of this vicious circle unless we are able to break this cycle of hatred, bigotry and violence.

The reason I alluded to 'The God Delusion' was to showcase the tolerance which is needed in these times. As I have said I do not agree with all the conclusions Dawkins has drawn, but there is lot of truth worth pondering over the facts which he has presented.

I am sad that the 'article' has not been seen in its true spirit by some interactors. I am sad that the real issues of violence and its reasons have almost gone unaddressed. And I do appreciate those who has understood the sentiments behind this writing.

Regards, I had NO idea that stupid website had grown so much. Check out some of their new pictures - conclusive proof in the watermelon.

Later, everyone.

Regards

Exactly. Flying spaghetti walas have to convince us why their religion is preferable to Islam or Christianity, and so on.

The same thing with Primal Soup walas. (1) Can they explain their theory/God/religion in simple terms that a lay person like me can understand? (2) Why should I bother?

#119 #120 Eklavya

There is an established religion of 'flying spaghetti'. It has gained recognition at least across US and claiming to be reconized in the schools and other institution as 'organized religion.

Here is the next best thing after Islam. Please adher.

BTW, if Hamidmn wasn't just taking us for a ride, then his view of the spaghetti god might resonate with 'primal soup' people.

Here's a fun video:

Peant Butter: The Atheist's Nightmare

http://axiomsun.com/home/video/peanut_butter_the_atheists_nightmare !.html

Urstruly, you nailed the argument against most self-professed atheists:

"My thesis is that by the very nature of it atheism cannot have an argument to prove their thesis. Its like being a mirzai - who cannot validate his own religion on its own merit unless he invalidate Islam. Compare this to Islam, which stands on its own merit - its self evident."

A-theism which is simply a denial (evidenced in loud statements like there is NO GOD), by its nature, cannot be proven with any reasonable degree of confidence. Also, offering no positive explanations/contributions (about the nature of the universe) of its own, it will always remain a marginal belief of a few.

The spaghetti god kind 'atheism' may be more interesting.

Hamidm seems to imply that there may be some kind of 'god' that is very different from God that we normally speak of.

If that is what he saying then that is a more positive statement (than simply NO GOD). Yet it's not clear (at least to me) what he means. If hamidm wasn't just kidding us, and wants us (and others) to take him seriously at all, he should explain to us befuddled lot this 'spaghetti god' of his. :)

Re: # 106
Mr. Beduine follower....
"...terror in the minds of indians..."
It is not terror. It is called nuicense. When it will go beyond the limit of tolerence, people will carry out another Gujrat like "whip the arab slaves" activity; may be in bigger scale and much more organised way....Islamic dogs needs periodic refreshers. Indians knows that very well...
Anyhow life is cheap in Asia...

Re: # 112
Urstruly...

Most of the Iraqis are killing themselves in sectarian violence(Shia-Sunni-Kurd). Some part of it is deeply associated with Islamic history. Afghanis are dying due to their association with arab barbarism. What you expect people to do with these jihadis? Wait for them to transform themselves into civilised human being?

#112 Ustruly

World wars and other wars will always happen because there will always be monsters like Hitler... In the same way, social reforms will also come because Gandhis will be there too.

But only you, religion paddlers are capable of transforming a simple soul Abdul or for that matter Ram Bharose in a monster.

Atheists do not need any proseletizing and never did so. If your religion brings you comfort of a drug-addict, good for you. Take an overdose. But if Abdul explodes a bomb in Delhi, Bangalore expecting for himself an orgy in hereafter and kills my friends, I'm after you as I know those killed will have no heaven nor rebirth.

The corollary is that deception of religions
can not be divine, it can only be idiotic or evil or something much worse.

#113 Posted by pinku on

So the basic premise is "stupidity of religions" that needs no more qualification and in your words "stands on its own merit"!!

Re #112 Posted by Urstruly on,
How many people are still suffering because of world war-I or world-war-II? People die even without killing but killing in the name of God is worst and most stupid of them all.

Religions are not bad because all killings and wars were created by them, but because they create the worst sufferings and pains for humanity for worst possible cause and for longest periods. And they create all those sufferings and lies to help God, who is all powerful???

The stupidity of religions is evident just by the existence of so many of them and by the definition of religion itself (a way to reach God, when God has already programmed everything perfectly).

God doesn't need any of them, so it is not atheism but thiesm without idiotic religions that is against religions. Religions deceptively hide behind theism when they are confronted by idea of religion less God (after all their business is at risk??).


Plus those who vouch for religions hinding behind the idea of God or thesim are evil, because they make God slave of these religions.

An all powerful God doesn't need books and idiotic religions. Such a God doesn't need anything, at best you can say that he needed to exist. No more.

Eklavya,

I do not agree with your thesis about asymetrical world view or your interpretation of my idea in #87. My position is this that an atheist does not have an argument at all to prove his thesis and absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it.

Now take this article, eg., it takes the position that since all the war and mayhem is caused by religion therefore religion is bad and hence must be discarded (or there is no God). The basic premis of this argument that " all the war and mayhem is caused by religion " has no basis at all. The greatest mayhem that we have seen in the history of mankind is two world wars; religion is absolutely absent in these wars; even the genocide of jews is based on race but not religion. The genocide of Vietnamese by Americans, the genocide of Afghans by Soviets are all deeds of the so called secularist or atheists who have refused God any place in their life. The recent genocide of well over 1 million Iraqis, and several million Afghanis is caused by secularists and atheist Americans and their Western counterparts, but not the other way around.

So the basic premis of this article is that "I got frost bite in the snow therefore walking barefoot in snow is bad; my refrigerator makes ice, which is kind of snow, therefore my refrigerator is bad as well." Is there any limit to their innanities that they spew forth and then try to get away with it too by turning themselves into mirasis and bhaands?

Other than that do you see any merit is speghetti god argument. Is it an argument in the first place. My thesis is that by the very nature of it atheism cannot have an argument to prove their thesis. Its like being a mirzai - who cannot validate his own religion on its own merit unless he invalidate Islam. Compare this to Islam, which stands on its own merit - its self evident.

Re #110 Posted by Eklavya on
May all people rot in the Hell of their respective religion, good night:-)

Pinku, that is not true. LOL. Sorry. :) I will explain that as the last post of this evening for me :)

Given how Gandhi-Nehru have completely messed up the Indian mind, it is the Indics who need help, not semitics at all. For, there are only two logical positions to take, both compelling and powerful, in very different ways.

First is the semitic appraoch. According to it, one's own approch is TRUE and the rest are false, or less true. So a Christian considers Christianity to be the True path, and the rest either false or less true. And so on.

This is a perfectly valid approach, and there is nothing illogical about it.

The other approach is the (pre-Nehru/Gandhi) Indic approach. It says that All approaches are false, one's own approach being less false than others'. This is just the reverse way of thinking, and is valid and logical as well. In real terms, of course, this creates a very differnt kind of society.

What is neither valid nor logical is to mix up the two. That is to say foolish things like ALL approaches are true. That will create social turmoil, as we will incresingly see unless people stop wearing these silly glasses.

Chalo, goodnite, pinku bhai.

#100 Posted by Eklavya on

If they say every religion is false, then their own religion becomes false as well..... and as you know that it is too true to be false:-)... So that kind of statement can not be made by people who switch their reasoning as per convenience....

So what Hindus have been saying for centuries is now helping them and they are willing to accept it... all religions are true!!

oh rabia, urstruly was perhaps just a tad careless in expressing his perspective. Alternatively, think of it as a believer's view. To a Muslim, the Quran as the final world of God, Mohammad as the last Prophet of God, and Allah as the only true God are all self-evident facts, and so on.

A believer's perspective (once the believer has grasped it) is self-evident to the believer. It is not not expected to be self-evident to unbelievers (or else no witnessing for the Lord or performing dawah will be needed).

eklavya, your version makes more sense. Urstruly was saying that the believer's perspective was self-evident.

hamidm #102: While the universe may have been made by the spaghetti monster, you will at least admit that the moon is made of green (Islamic color!!) cheese.

This green cheese is obviously designed to strike terror in the hearts of Indians who come to chowk to prove the superiority of Poltergeists..I mean Polytheists.. over Mononucleosis..I mean Monotheists.

In fact, in semitic religions, proselytization is absolutely necessary, every single person's duty. It would be just unpardonable to have the TRUE knowledge (or path to true knowledge) and not share it (knowledge or path to the knowledge) with those who might benefit from it or who stand to lose much by staying ignorant.

(Note: This may also fully justify the use of force on some occasion, or for some people.)

rabia, Ustruly's idea, which is the quintessential semitic idea, is (and he may correct me if I am wrong) both suble and logical.

This semitic idea is as follows:

Atheists say that no god exists or none was needed to create/explain the universe. The universe can be rationally explained/understood in totally human terms.

Were that true, then all humans, equally, should be able to see that logic clearly. But believers can't see that human logic, on their own. So the atheist logic is not universal, and atheists should not propagage it.

A believer however does NOT expect the logic behind the universe to be self-evident to ALL humans. Rather, he or she relies on his or her religion (book) for cosmic wisdom.

Having found that cosmic wisdom in his or her particular book, and being absolultely convinced of THAT wisdom, THEN a believer has every right, in fact a DUTY to explain that cosmic logic to everyone who might not read his or her special book (or might not have understood it well enough).

So the situation is NOT symmetric, in the semitic view.

Re: # 87
this is a good argument against religious proselytization too..

Re: # 87

urstruly,

"Au contrair, a true believer's argument is self evident. He presents this universe as an evidence of the proof of existence of God. This argument is absolutely irrifutible. Its rational and absolutly logical. "

.... i hate to disappoint you, but this universe was created by the spagetti monster and his homosexual lover ..... sorry

every religion is true but some are more true LoL

"Every religion is true...."

Paradox, don't know your background but that is a foolish statement. Led by Gandhi/Nehru, in India we have been saying precisely that to no effect.

Do you want to make a real difference? Do you have the courage to make a difference?

Then tell everyone that every religion is FALSE.

#97 Posted by paradox on

Paradox, I am ok for all that. I am ok if Hindus and muslims of South Asia can convert to Christianity in just one day. That will make South Asia a very good place, irrespective of what Christianity is.

What I am not ok is with lies, you do all things wrong and then pretend as if everything is right?? I am not ok in saying that Islam doesn't have problem. It has serious problems and you can delay accepting it, but sooner or later this will be accepted universally.

Do you know what Pope tells people?? Religious leaders are more for religion than us. It is not a valid wish or thinking that Pope wil say you can accept any religion?? Unfortunately religious guys are not that intelligent, pretense is their way. They rely on pretense very heavily.

Even our educated guys are so god at pretense.

Re #94 Posted by NDocR on,

[[
I dare say, I was rather shocked that no one addresses how to stop those ever-growing violent acts. Quite obviously, many of you no longer live in that region for reasons only known to you.
]]

You are right, but Indians, Pakistanis, Americans and so many others are working overtime to minimize violent acts. So what is it that keeps on increasing violence? My violent ideas are being read by at most 0.0000x% of Indians and Pakistanis, but even if I agree with everybody else in almost whatever they say, how do you think people can prevent violent ideologies that are energized through heavy propaganda machinery. Do you think peaceful talks help there?
Who will dilute religions and who will create awarenes of political nature of Islam? One day you say Islam is political and next day you say all religions are same, one day you start thinking why always muslims are so violent, another day you say they are not muslims, they are just a bunch of guys? Where does it end?? Who will end it?


Who is most responsible for the state of Islam that it is in??

Fighting with ideas is 1000 times better than killing people. Fight it out with ideas as much as you can, you will discover much more than just agreeing on things and doing nothing, you will get to know what is it that those violent people believe in, you get to know what is it that can make my type of people violent tomorrow.

We anyway celeberate common-ness daily, we live together, we work together, we do have parties and fun with everybody.

So think why a muslim and hindu are different and how that difference can be removed?? Not just think about commonalities. Everybody knows we all are humans, still we fight all the time??

Pinku
To me there is no difference if one believes in "one god "or "100 god religion". The point is that all is human creation and most of the times harmful to human beings as evident through out history. The best thing would be for representative of every religion is to come out and say that every religion is true and tell their followers to follow which ever religion they like.
Peace

"intuition"

As regards said, it is reasoning of sub-conscious mind, which is more detached from ego than conscious mind.

In any case no part of mind is perfect, so both reason of conscious mind and intuition of sub-consious mind can be wrong.. but the truth system itself exists as something true..

..the eixstence of world as a set of truths doesn't depend on capability of mind in understanding it perfectly..

Re #53 Posted by thinkingstorm on

missed this post. So here is what love is..

Love is not that great a thing in itself.


Love is dissolving your ego for something or identifying it with something. So basically it is killing your "I" for something. Something can be a person, idea or whatever.

Whether it is good or bad depends on what you are kiiling it for or what you are replacing it with.


So a girl or boy dissolving or killing his/her ego for an arrogant stupid boy/girl is not a great thing, doesn't matter how selfless it is, or how platonic it is.


So again love for God doesn't automatically becomes good, again irrespective of self-lessness or devotion. What matters is what is it that you call God, for whom you are dissolving your ego?



So love is not HU, but you can have love for HU as well.

Again what you explained as HU is originally from Upanishads and not Sufism, sorry for hurting ego but that is what I want to do, Sufis picked it up from Hinduism but not as comprehensively. So everytime you say Sufi for such thing I will have to not only repeat that they picked it up from Hinduism but will have to mark it as ego problem as well (my ego comes after your ego if you don't put facts correctly)..

With great wonder have I followed the discussions about this post "The God Delusion." I am an outsider, European born emigrant, and my interest in the Eastern/Mid-Eastern region is merely from a philantropical point of helping to stem the growing health crisis of diabetes in that area of the world.

So, for what its worth I shall give you my "outsider" reading: The original article to me firstly expresses how the writer voices the degree to which he is disturbed and anguished by the growing violence in the region (whatever its face: the burying alive of women, blowing up of innocents, verbal abuse and incitement, intolerance in general).
This is a major concern to me also... and to many others watching "from the outside." That there appears to be some motivating involvement of "religion" (whatever you call it) makes matters only worse and is telling in the reaction it prompts: Reading the comments responding to this article has turned into a real wake-up call for me. Not until way up in the list of comments anyone picks up on the number one topic of the article: violence. Instead, your posts slip into... well, no need to remind you!

I dare say, I was rather shocked that no one addresses how to stop those ever-growing violent acts. Quite obviously, many of you no longer live in that region for reasons only known to you. Wouldn't it stand to reason that you truly try to search for ways to resolve the growing violence? A forum like chowk could be ideal for networking towards a valid cause. Instead, it looks like all of you run or stick your heads in the sand like ostriches and play the blame game... Shame on you! Become proactive and start making a physical difference by motivating the right people instead of taking the keyboard of your computers for a walk violently (albeit bloodlessly) battling yourselves.

author of the forthcoming At Risk? Avoid Diabetes by Recognizing Early Risk - A Natural Medicine View and the new DIABETES-Series Little Books

Regards


[[Egos don’t get hurt; ]]


Only egos get hurt, intellect doesn't get hurt.

#86 Posted by paradox
paradox,

progression is not from "polytheism to monotheism" through your favourite Islam.

It was from deity of Vedas to "all is God" of Upanishads and 900-500Bc hinduism to "my Allaha" of Islam and "my God" of Christianity. And it was not progression, those faith from Abrahma corrupted everything with their "own" God. even though scientists and philosopher agree that if there is God, it is of type "all is God", these guys will beat you if you try to make them understand this.

So just say one thing "no book is word of God".

Re #82 Posted by Regards on,

Regards just saying "it doesn't hurt" is not that convincing. Your original post try to portray as if Hinduism got something from Islam. Everything that Hinduism says was said so elaborately and through such an eloborate framework of Hinduism (Puran, Katha, Upanishads, Mimamnsa) that it never get lost, even without written manuscripts. So only people who have hurt ego can suggest that people who spread idea of "all ig god", dvaita and advaita before Budhdha will need it from anybody else. Buddha and his desciples were the first to ignore the duality or non-duality of God. They stuck to the 10 principles and not God for quite long. In the second poast you said that Hinduism had it but got diluted and took it from Islam??

Just so that you know, the Benaras is believed to be in existence for at least last 300 years. Max Muller and others learned sanskrit there. If you go there you will find that the Upanishadic teaching never ended. It is still there.

you said
[[
If I/ we are engaging in this dialogue today, it is because unfortunately your God and faith in things is getting in my way more and more. It hurts life prospects of my children.
]]


Do let me know what "God and faith" of mine is coming in your ways (or your children's ways). I think the problem of Ummaha and Islam's protective gear is all that a muslim needs to fear. Nobody will tolerate political Islam for long.

Dear Urstruly
This universe is best at creating black holes not really a place suited for life of any sort and the "matter" that we observe seems to be a side effect or after thought. According to Occam's principle we have to accept a more economic theory and by that taken the God theory is less economical and moreover it does not explain anything rather it needs explanation itself. It’s like trying to explain a mystery (universe) by another mystery (God). If God is a "necessary being" than he cannot be a creator of "contingent" beings as from Necessary proposition only necessary proposition follows. Talking about atheism. I am not an atheist but an agnostic .Another friend rightly mentioned that religious people do more harm and human history is a testimony to that. Humans are not equipped to know the ultimate truth so any statement "for "and "against" God is made by man himself. There might be an ultimate truth but humans have no way of knowing it and these religions are human creation and the burden of proof is on the exponent of people who except the less economical theory of god

"Conversely, no amount of argument will convince me or any one else that the rotating broiling chicken will come out of the oven and eat me instead."

Urstruly, may your chicken be tasty and add to your health :)

You raise a really interesting question...why do atheists need to believe? And yes, there burden is a much larger one...
with much respect,
thinking storm

because religous nutcases do more harm to others than atheists do. that is why proselytization by atheists is much much better than believers.

One thing I never understood is why the idea of "Atheism" needs to be propogated and prolysetize. If it is as rational as atheists claim it to be then why it isn't self evident. For example, it is aboslutely self evident that I am going to eat the chicken which is skewered and rotating in the oven right now; I absolutely need no argument to prove this to myself or to others. Conversely, no amount of argument will convince me or any one else that the rotating broiling chicken will come out of the oven and eat me instead. Extending the same logic, why would an atheist has to be a "believer" in the belief that there is no God. If their argument is rational then why isn't it self evident.

Au contrair, a true believer's argument is self evident. He presents this universe as an evidence of the proof of existence of God. This argument is absolutely irrifutible. Its rational and absolutly logical.

So my advice to atheists is to shut up and put up until they present one single "effect" as an evidence that might have happened without a "cause".

Dear Mr.Pinku
Whatever you are trying to say does not mean much. It does not matter if it’s a Hindu, Christian or Muslim God. You can see the progression, as idea from polytheism to monotheism, with the passage of time. As human understanding improved they realizes that the idea of gods made by hand and put in temples is not serving the purpose so the sky God, high God and one God idea came about. The problem is that humans created this idea to cope with the mysterious world around but now it should not be taken literally and seriously. Humans should grow out of it and should try to find the truth by reliable and verifiable method and if that’s not possible for now, it’s better to admit the limit of human reasoning than to create supernatural entity as God.

Re: # 84 Regards,
It is matter how you define logic - but it is very interesting point, thanks.
Would love to know more about the evidence you have alluded to ...

#83 quin
"I think Max Plank meant more than what you have said about it. Consider the fact that logic is often transcended even in the scientific fields, especially when it is breaking some new grounds. Logic is only one of many tools at the disposal of this strange creature - man"

Some earlier interactors are making a lot out of 'intution', there is enough evidence now on the origine of 'intution'. It is nothing more than a new pathway adopted by neuron connectivityin a mind at rest. It is still nothing but still logic.

Re: # 82 Regards,
"Religion on the contrary pretends to push incoherent, illogical gibberish as 'faith'.
may we just add "organized religion ...."
There are many shapes and forms of religion. We must not loose the sight of it because of media blitz about only a few.
I think Max Plank meant more than what you have said about it. Consider the fact that logic is often transcended even in the scientific fields, especially when it is breaking some new grounds. Logic is only one of many tools at the disposal of this strange creature - man.

#63 nkg
No quarrel with the assertion that Brahman, as well as Atma / Par-matma were very well present in pre-Buddhism Indian philosophies. But they were discarded in favour of the proposition of the Cause & Consequence cycle of Buddhism. If Buddhism does not talk of God, it is just as when Napoleon was presented with the first encyclopaedic book of astronomy. When he asked why God is not mentioned, the astronomer responded – Sire, I never needed Him.

Buddhism made a speculation in terms of Maya because Theory of Evolution was still 2000 years away. But it advanced logic by discarding an unnecessary fuzz factor, called God and added only one unknown of Maya.

Philosophically Buddhism stood its ground in India until 5th century BC giving us most prosperous time. But the old Duality concept of Atma/ Parmatma which went to Europe at around alexander's time, was adopted by Plato with a further twist. Parmatma will necessarily make the sun/ stars go around the place where he has put his creation -Atmas. Ensuing Heliocentrism and monolithic God killed all chances of birth of free thinking for 2000 years and thereby also astronomy, mathematics, sciences in Mediterranean basin as happened in India.

However Islam carried back the same old shoes of dualism and its aggressive stances made Shankar and co. adopt it as Vedanta. There was nothing new -new bottle with old almost 1000 year old wine.

#61 quin
What I described above is my ‘faith’ because it fits logically but I’m willing to abandon it. Like Max Plank, Faith is only the most logical speculation when we do not know something but it should not stand in the way of logic if proven wrong. Religion on the contrary pretends to push incoherent, illogical gibberish as 'faith'.

#66 pinku
Egos don’t get hurt; at least not mine in such a speculative exercise.
Schopenhauer is my favourite early last century auhtor but just like Einstein had gone totally off-track on Quantum Mechanics, Schopenhauer as well as Oppenheim never delved in Theory of Evolution enough. That was a period of exploration of human mind. It ended when we start comparing ourselves with computers and self replicating robot. Biotech will take out whatever great ideas, we have about - 'Why we're here' etc..

Atheism was always houndeded by God-business and atheists couldn’t care less to attack a non existent God. If I/ we are engaging in this dialogue today, it is because unfortunately your God and faith in things is getting in my way more and more. It hurts life prospects of my children.

Just imagine as Richard Dawkins said if the religion disappears. All these things sacred – Kashmir, Quran, Ram-setu, Mandir/Masjid property disputes in every Indian town .. will disappear.

I’m all for profaning everything. Nothing sacred.

further to # 80, apologize for misspelling name Khurram.

Re: # 71 kurram,
This time, first let me thank you for commenting about the incidents which prompted my post. The e-mail I received was from the people I usually trust and do not suspect their integrity. I did not check all the details myself. But as you have pointed out it is worth verifying it. Regardless, the point made stays still valid. And then of course there were Delhi blasts. Such instances of intolerance, hatred and bigotry are extremely painful. It is also true, as you have said that in present circumstances airing such controversial and inciting discussion is not a responsible or prudent thing to do. People did loose their life in result – how sad. (will go back to news to verify that too.)

Regarding the point about Finality. Why the whole Islam would hinge on that one point? Why we want to mire ourselves only in controversies and in peripherals ?(at least to my mind) (Question not addressed to you personally)

Quran has 6236 verses. About 180 or so relates to ‘ahkamat’ which relates to “do and don’ts�. And there are 3 most talked about and considered controversial ones, and people have made Islam hostage to these verses and forgotten the rest of over six thousands.

The referred three are interpreted (even translated) differently by different ‘schools of thought’ (for lack of other suitable word). Verse 33.40, 7.157 & 3.7. (About Khatim un nabyeen, about Ummi nabee and about figurative verses respectively). And of course, many others to a lesser degree. Some of these may be important for theological reasons. But my whole point is that theology can take us only so far.

When we read Quran in its totality, only then we can see beyond the words and have some glimpse of the Truth (the true spirit). To me sometime a small phrase (e.g., subahnka tubto alaik) reflects the whole light and in that light such things never seem to perturb my mind or heart.

Why should focus on peripherals, the things which leads us nowhere. Why not to see the whole Truth and enjoy the bounty.

As I said earlier in an iLog, “Arguments based on the perceived precepts of Quran takes us nowhere. One can argue ad infinitum one way or other. It is not the weakness of Quran. It all depends on what one’s heart is seeking for. It’s just like life itself; an interaction with a living thing - a chemistry between two partners. I happen to find that chemistry with spiritual aspect of Quran and my interaction with it is not tainted by such matters. For me that’s enough and I bother not myself with exploring every other spring for satiety of my thirst. If there are other springs and people are drinking from them, I am happy for them. If they are drinking coke only, I am happy for them too. I find my nourishment and solace in my spring and I worry not too much [about others].�

And i don't believe in those lines that "all religions are smae in binary format".... their machine architecture, language, results for end user and much more is so different...

So yes I am saying it for so long that Hinduism is better than Islam...

Re #77 Posted by thinkingstorm on,
Well whichever you prefer. But I will stick to what I am doing. Do you think that all religions are equal in binrary format kind of thing??? Similar to what Hinduism says for long..

See when I chant (whatever I chant) it is in many lines. So I would prefer chanting in your own words and in more than 2-3 lines, if you are trying to match mine.

pinku,

there you are chanting "my religion is better than your religion"...

do you want a conversation or a shouting match? sheesh.
with much respect,
thinking storm

And remember there is no superiority complex in Islam, it is inferiority complex. The whole group ego works in a narrow inferiority complex mode. Those who need more people with conversion are not sure of the importance of their ideas. On the other hand Hinduism has a superiority complex. They don't care what you think aout them as long as they can think they are good. That is why they don't convert people. For this reason Hinduism had their own brand of religious schools even during the reign of muslims, but they never produced professional liars or terrorists till date. You can still goto Hindu religious school in Haridwar or Benaras and you will be surprised to hear that they will say there is no hindu or muslim, everybody is a human being, child of same God! I expected them to say that muslims are bad, i thought that is the impression they should be carrying. But that is the difference.

The difference is between "every body is part of God" and "believer, non-believer" concept of ideologies.

Killing aside even VHP or Bajrang dal will show same feelings.

hamid writes "masadi mian,

..... so you agree that mo of mecca plagiarized the bible to come up with his own book that tahmed is so proud of ? "

For you to conclude that from my post would mean that you take the Bible to be "the truth inherent in nature which was God's message to humanity from day 1". I beg to differ with that conclusion regarding the Bible. Second, I didn't say that the "uncovering" was done by a man. Please don't ask stupid questions regarding goats eating chapters, ask the hadith mongers those questions. The Quran was misinterpreted by the Mullahs but that still doesn't make them wajib ul Qatl.

Have a nice day and keep groveling in the dirt you grovel in,

TNI Masadi

Re #72 Posted by masadi on,

masadi,
Your muslim friends try to de-cloak things after somebody else have already de-cloaked them many times???

So once some scientist has discovered something they will look for stupid sign of it in Kuran??

On the other hand Hinduism inspired Scientists to look for something new. Philosphers to say something new. Schrondinger said that he was inspired by the Hindu theory of "everything is energy vibration" to find the wave phenomenon of particle. So Hinduism suggests things before hand. It doesn't mean that Hinduism know wave mechanics or quantum mechanics but they were certainly great intellectuals that they could decipher very subtle things just based on concepts alone. So they knew the conclusion of wave mechanics without knowing wave mechanicsitself.

Even their time system was surprisingly accurate. And they always talked about 10 dimensions or 10 directions while there exist only 4 (now this doesn't seem tobe based on any concept on Hinduism they for some reason talked about 10 dimensions no idea why, probably liked number 10 more than number 4).

But the thing is that their thought about world and God are the best known to Humanity till date. They surpassed those who came 4000 years after them, the 17-20th century scientists and that is why a person like Schopenhauer who was all for truth, was so impressed by those ancient philosophical thoughts.


For a south asian muslim, if you are a seeker of truth, you will have to accept Hinduism the way it is and not the way your muslim ego wants you to understand it. There is no road to truth for south aisan muslims that goes without accepting the truth about their past. You can only delay it, somebody in your next generation will have to accept it.




More for Islam, Islam own scientists who denied Islam all their life, but muslim ego tries to deny Hinduism to own even people who created Hinduism, who were inventing things for praying Shiva, Brahman and rituals. So those who themselves were Hinduism are not part of Hinduism for muslim ego:-) Well, you have to think, if your next generations should also suffer this same pain of deception or not?

Your intellect own those ideas the moment you let go of your muslim ego, because yousahred the same culture, your forefathers were same people. You can be muslim and can still accept truth about Islamand Hinduism. The moment you understand that in today's time nobody needs to be hindu or muslim, these are just useless tags. But if you want to work for Ummaha and Islam, then of course the pain should be yours. You are responsible for it then.

Re: # 72

masadi mian,

..... so you agree that mo of mecca plagiarized the bible to come up with his own book that tahmed is so proud of ? ...... i have been saying that all along ..... now, maybe you can cast some light on the six chapters that were eaten by the goat ... also, do you think tahmed is wajib-ul-qatl because he is attempting to reinterpret the koran .....

Pinku guru writes " Islam didn't give one single original good idea to world. Not even one..."

It wasn't supposed to, it just de-cloaked the truth inherent in nature which was God's message to humanity from day 1 of human creation. Thank you for getting at this pristine truth in your own perverted way. The Quran says explicitly :" Nothing (means nothing) is said to you that was not said to the prophets before you..."

Re: #69 quin,
"For me the simple answer is that Universal Truth cannot be equated with finality and exclusivity"
Where does this leave Islam - the religion? Exclusivity, you can argue, is negated by some Quranic verses. But, Islam without Finality?

Regarding the e-mail,
"In a program aired on 7 September 2008 the anchor of the religious program 'Alam Online'Dr. Amir Liaquat Hussain--also former federal minister for religious affairs--declared the murder of Ahmadi sect members to be necessary (Wajib ul Qatal) according to Islamic teachings, because its followers don't believe in the last prophet, Mohammad, peace be upon him. Dr. Amir repeated his instruction several times, urging fundamentalists Muslims to kill without fear.

while on air the anchor person also pressured the other two Islamic scholars (from two different sects) on the program to support the statement."

Dr Aamer Liaquat Hussain is one of my least favorite personalities and I wouldn't have put it past him to engage in such despicable behaviour. That's why I was surprised to see the actual Sep 7 show. The above statements are patently false. ALH did not utter the words wajib-ul-qatl nor incite or pressure anyone. The entire program was a criticism of Ahmadi doctrine of continuation of prophethood. The only reference to Wajib-ul-qatl was made by a guest in reference to claimants of prophethood.
Of course, broadcasting a program criticizing Ahmadi doctrines in the intolerant atmosphere of Pakistan may itself be objectionable. But the above e-mail campaign is based on distortions of actual facts. See the show for yourself on vidpk.com

Lack of integrity doesn't help any cause, no matter how worthy.

crazysh** writes "hese words from holy, spiritual, Mahatama, Mullah Marx dedicated to dear near Asadi, while I take another sip of warm, green tea;..."

I think you need a lot of work understanding Marx, but before you do that you need some work understanding English. Did you even get the argument that was being made in that copy paste of yours? And do you understand Marx when he says that the bourgeoisie have profaned all that is holy?

Regarding the "scientific" case for God, if the scientific methodology is a valid methodology for getting at "truth", why not apply the same to God. Is that not what Dawkins is doing in his half ass, perverted, lying way?


Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 65 khurrum,
First let me thank you for your succinct summarization in one sentence of Eklavya's response.(#32)
"How can a Universal Truth be actualized in a form that claims finality and exclusivity?"

(you might want to include Judaism too requiring to address this)

For me the simple answer is that Universal Truth cannot be equated with finality and exclusivity. Truth cannot be contained in such containers of human mind.

It is a matter of interpretation. Variety, as Quran itself says, is there for us to learn from each other. Of course, everyone has their own opinion. I am expressing my own personal opinion. We are not trying to resolve here any theological problems to put an end to anything. Therefore I won't say anymore than this that often language is our Achilles’ heels. Even in science it is an issue, one can imagine the case with religion. Here is one quote from famous scientist Werner Heisenberg (creator of quantum mechanics)

"The problems of language here are really serious. We wish to speak in some way about the structure of the atoms. But we cannot speak about atoms in ordinary language."

Now back to alam-on line thing. Following is the copy of an e-mail showing details of the incidents: (This e-mail and news of Delhi blast that morning were the incidents that made me write that piece)

"Dear friends,

The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) has received information that an anchor person working for a prominent television channel has incited Muslims in Pakistan to kill - to devastating effect. The targets are followers of the Muslim Ahmadi sect, a group which has been declared non-Islamic under the constitution of Pakistan. The first killing happened within 24 hours of the broadcast, and just under two days later a district chief of the Ahmadi was murdered. Followers of the religion are understandably frightened, and many have left their homes and are taking shelter at their central mosque, the Rabwa.

CASE DETAILS:

In a program aired on 7 September 2008 the anchor of the religious program 'Alam Online', Dr. Amir Liaquat Hussain--also former federal minister for religious affairs--declared the murder of Ahmadi sect members to be necessary (Wajib ul Qatal) according to Islamic teachings, because its followers don't believe in the last prophet, Mohammad, peace be upon him. Dr. Amir repeated his instruction several times, urging fundamentalists Muslims to kill without fear.

While on air the anchor person also pressured the other two Islamic scholars (from two different sects) on the program to support the statement. This resulted in a unanimous decision among the scholars, on air during a popular television show, to urge lynching with the intent to kill. This was not a one-off. On September 9, Mr. Hussain answered a query with the comment that blasphemers are liable to be put to death.

According to the information received, at 1:15pm on September 8, 18 hours after the broadcast, six persons entered the Fazle Umer Clinic, a two-story hospital at Mirpur Khas city and two of them went to the second floor and started pressuring 45 year-old Dr. Abdul Manan Siddiqui to come downstairs to attend to a patient in crisis. Dr. Manan left his office and descended into an ambush. He was shot 11 times and died on the spot. His private guard was also shot and is in a serious condition. A woman was also injured by firing. The killers remained at the hospital until the doctor was declared dead, then they walked out of the building's front entrance. Police registered the killers as unknown.

On September 9, 48 hours after the broadcast, Mr. Yousaf, a 75 year-old rice trader and district chief of the Ahmadi sect was killed on his way to prayer in Nawab Shah, Sindh province. Yousaf was fired on from people on motor bikes, and sustained three bullet wounds. He died on the way to the hospital. The assailants had taken a route past a police station. No one was arrested.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

The Ahmadi sect was declared non-Islamic sect on September 7, 1974, through a constitutional amendment, and was labeled a minority sect. Since then, there has been open hatred of the sect by certain Islamic circles and fundamentalists across the Muslim world, and sect members suffer widespread discrimination. Ahmadi followers are not allowed to bury their dead in the ordinary grave yards of Muslims, and many of those buried before 1974 were shifted by fundamentalists.

Since 1984 (when statistics have been compiled) around 93 Ahmadis have been killed for their allegiance to their sect, with four killed so far this year, including Dr. Ghulam Sarwar on March 19 in Faisalabad, Punjab province and Mr. Basharat Mughal on February 24 in Karachi. The Dr. Siddiqui is the 15th medical doctor killed since 1984.

SUGGESTED ACTION:
Please write to following authorities and urge them to appropriate actions in order to stop the killings of Ahmadi followers and recognized religious freedom. Please also demand them to prevent any religious hatred or discrimination from broadcasting through the media.

Please be informed that the AHRC has also written separate letter to the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief.

SAMPEL LETTER:

Dear _______,

PAKISTAN: Two persons murdered after an anchor person proposed the widespread lynching of Ahmadi sect followers

Details of victims:
1. Dr. Abdul Manan Siddiqui, 45 years old; shot dead in the Fazle Umer Clinic, a two-story hospital at Mirpur Khas city on September 8
2. Mr. Yousaf, 75 years old; rice trader and district chief of the Ahmadi sect; shot dead in Nawab Shah, Sindh province
Persons involved in broadcasting:
1. Dr. Aamir Liaquat Hussain, Anchor person of Alim Online, Geo Television, Karachi-Pakistan
2. The producer of Alim Online, Geo Telvision, Karachi-Pakistan

I am writing you to draw your attention to and request prompt action regarding the latest incident of Ahmadi lynchings, as urged on a popular and seemingly unregulated Pakistani television program. The Anchor person, also former federal minister for religious affairs suggested that the followers be killed as punishment for their religious views.

According to the information that I have received, Dr. Amir Liaquat Hussain declared the murder of Ahmadi sect members to be necessary (Wajib ul Qatal) according to Islamic teachings, in 'Alam Online', aired on September 7, 2008. Dr. Amir repeated his instruction several times, urging fundamentalists Muslims to kill without fear.

While on air the anchor person also pressured the other two Islamic scholars (from two different sects) on the program to support the statement. This resulted in a unanimous decision among the scholars, on air during a popular television show, to urge lynching with the intent to kill. This was not a one-off. On September 9 Mr Hussain answered a query with the comment that blasphemers are liable to be put to death.

The killings On September 8 at 1:15 pm, 18 hours after the broadcast, six persons entered the Fazle Umer Clinic, a two-storey hospital at Mirpur Khas city. Two of them went to the second floor and started pressuring 45 year-old Dr. Abdul Manan Siddiqui to come downstairs to attend to a patient in crisis. Dr. Manan left his office and descended into an ambush. He was shot 11 times and died on the spot. His private guard was also shot and is in a serious condition. A woman was also injured by firing. The killers remained at the hospital until the doctor was declared dead, then they walked out of the building's front entrance. Police registered the killers as unknown.

On September 9, 48 hours after the broadcast, Mr. Yousaf, a 75 years old rice trader and district chief of the Ahmadi sect was killed on his way to prayers in Nawab Shah, Sindh province. Yousaf was fired on from people on motor bikes, and sustained three bullet wounds. He died on the way to the hospital. The assailants had taken a route past a police station. No one has been arrested.

It is the responsibility of a government to tackle religious hatred, yet in Pakistan it flourishes. That it can bloom so publicly and has results both bloody and unpunished, is an embarrassment to a country that hopes to be taken seriously outside of its borders. While religious persons can incite murder on mainstream television shows without restraint or legal consequence, a country cannot hope to be considered mature. Neither can its leaders.

In this context I demand that the government of Pakistan take immediate steps to stop further killings by other religious communities and to investigate the two cases reported above. Those responsible for the killings must be prosecuted and punished according to the law. Immediate measures to prohibit broadcasting and spreading religious hatred through the media.

I further urge you to investigate those responsible for instigating murders through media broadcast. I also demand for a genuine and humane effort to be made to reintegrate the Ahmadi community into the social fabric of Pakistan. Their civil, human and religious rights must be protected. The government must take the lead to create a space for dialogue between opposing religious communities in Pakistan there by bringing an end to religious and communal violence in the country.

Yours sincerely,

------
PLEASE SEND YOUR LETTERS TO:

1. Mr. Asif Ali Zardari
President of Pakistan
President's Secretariat
Islamabad
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 51 922 1422, 4768/ 920 1893 or 1835
E-mail: (please see: http://www.presidentofpakistan.gov.pk/WTPresidentMessage.aspx)

2. Mr. Syed Yousaf Raza Gillani
Prime minister of Pakistan
Prime Minister House
Islamabad
PAKISTAN
Fax: 92-51-9221596
E-mail: webmaster@infopak.gov.pk

3. Mr. Rehman Malik
Advisor for Ministry of Interior
Fax: +92 51 920 2624
E-mail: minister@interior.gov.pk

4. Dr. Ishrat-ul-Ebad Khan
Governor of Sindh province
Karachi, Sindh Province
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 21 920 5043
E-mail: governor@governorsindh.gov.pk

5. Syed Qaim Ali Shah
Chief Minister House
Karachi, Sindh Province
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 21 920 2000
E-mail: pppsindh@yahoo.co

6. Chief Justice of Sindh High Court
High Court Building
Saddar, Karachi
Sindh Province
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 21 9213220
E-mail: info@sindhhighcourt.gov.pk

7. Ms. Nadia Gabol
Minister for Human Rights
Government of Sindh,
Karachi, Sindh Province
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 21 9207044
E-mail: lukshmil@yahoo.com

8. Secretary
(Criminal Prosecution) SGA &CD Department
Government of Sindh
Sindh Secretariat,
Karachi, Sindh Province
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 21 9213873
E-mail: secy.cpsd@sindh.gov.pk

9. Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Mirza
Minister for Home
Government of Sindh
Karachi, Sindh Province
PAKISTAN
Fax: +92 21 9204456
Tel: +92 21 9201920-1
E-mail: secy.home@sindh.gov.pk

Thank you.

Urgent Appeals Programme
Asian Human Rights Commission (ua@ahrchk.org)

Asian Human Rights Commission
19/F, Go-Up Commercial Building,
998 Canton Road, Kowloon, Hongkong S.A.R.
Tel: +(852) - 2698-6339 Fax: +(852) - 2698-6367

#64 that article is a load of historical gibberish (calling Rehmat Ali a "muslim propagandist" is like calling nehru a "hindu propagandist"). and it also makes the hollow assertions that "it appear overwhelmingly probable that the bombs were not the work of local or homegrown "insurgents" but were orchestrated by agents of the Pakistani ISI", when in fact even the indian government - which has historically found pakistan a convenient excuse for its own lack of crime-solving abilities - is saying this was a homegrown crime.

So, while it would be great if Obama can clean up fata of the arab, central asian, chechen fugitives hiding their alongside taliban, articles like this are mere garbage. Not fit to print even on chowk, let alone a newspaper that expects readers to pay to read it.

So again I repeat...

Islam didn't give one single original good idea to world. Not even one. While Hinduism did give many original ideas or was the first one to postulate it and those ideas didn't come from Hindus but from Hinduism as all of them were wrapped around God by the priestly class.

Re #59 Posted by Regards on
For Regards as well as for author


Just to hurt your ego a bit. For your knowledge everything in Hinduism is thiestic. So the infinite God of Upanishads, or Par-atma or Brahma all of them were their definition of God. Secondaly, the authorof this article doesn't mention but this concept of God of Hinduism was not only well received by too many philosophers and seicntists but they also considered it superior to known ideas of God.

So Schopenhauer, Friedrich Nietzsche, Voltaire, Mark Twain, Max Muller, Will Durant, Robert Oppenheimer, Nicola Tesla, Schrondinger plus a lot more were not impressed by any athiestic idea, they were impressed by the definition of God plus the baggae it carriesin Hinduism.

So while God of Scientists is no way close to God of Islam and Christianity, it is very close to God of Hinduism and most these top grade scientists were basically believing in God of Hinduism, though some things are irrational.

So you will find that Schopenhauer used to read Upanishads daily and many other used to read Gita regularly. Nikolas Tesla and Schopenhauer were probably more true Hindus then Hindus themselves.

Remember Buddhism is more athiestic (though not athiestic but more of "i don't care") but most of these people were looking for God and so ended up getting infuenced by infinite God of Hinduism. The Upanishadic God comes with lot many things and comes prior to Gods of all other religions. The package of "one infinite being par-atma", plus "atma that ca realize it" plus even "the way to realize it" and then the concept of Maya together makes acomplete thiestic package that can lure best of scientists. This is the reason. You can only ignore it, but it remained a fact till date. If you look for poets (western romantic poets) or bands like Beatles or Guitarists, you will see that whenever it attracts somebody it does it with full force.



Make sure you understand this. And everything came thousands of years before Islam. Islam is too late some 2000 year late for Hinduism to give any idea that was not there in it. Islam hardly has any new or significant idea.

Sufism is based on superficial knowledge of Hinduism as brought to Persia/Arab land by translators like Al Biruni or traders or as learnt by those Sufis while living in India.

I will write more on "love" and what Sufism did to the ideas it took from Hinduism later.

But make sure doesn't matter what you say for my advertisement above, it is closer to truth than what you say. Accept it Islam didn't bring any good idea to world. While Hinduism brough many and brought them much earlier than most religions. This is what people will accept in general decades or centuries from now. This is truth.

Re: #41 quin,
"No one has said about Alam-Online who is inciting people to kill Ahmedis"

After this admonishment, I did go and check out the Sep. 7 episode of Alim-Online . I was puzzled. I did not see the incitement to murder.
Have you seen the episode? Can you point out where the incitement occurred?

Pakistan Is the Problem
And Barack Obama seems to be the only candidate willing to face it.

By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Sept. 15, 2008, at 12:04 PM ET

An excellent article by Fraser Nelson in London's Spectator at the end of July put it as succinctly as I have seen it:
At a recent dinner party in the British embassy in Kabul, one of the guests referred to "the Afghan-Pakistan war." The rest of the table fell silent. This is the truth that dare not speak its name. Even mentioning it in private in the Afghan capital's green zone is enough to solicit murmurs of disapproval. Few want to accept that the war is widening; that it now involves Pakistan, a country with an unstable government and nuclear weapons.
"Don't mention the war," as Basil insists with mounting hysteria in Fawlty Towers. And, when discussing the deepening crisis in Afghanistan, most people seem deliberately to avoid such telling phrases as "Pakistani aggression" or—more accurate still—"Pakistani colonialism." The truth is that the Taliban, and its al-Qaida guests, were originally imposed on Afghanistan from without as a projection of Pakistani state power. (Along with Pakistan, only Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ever recognized the Taliban as the legal government in Kabul.) Important circles in Pakistan have never given up the aspiration to run Afghanistan as a client or dependent or proxy state, and this colonial mindset is especially well-entrenched among senior army officers and in the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI.

We were all warned of this many years ago. When the Clinton administration sent cruise missiles into Afghanistan in reprisal for the attacks on our embassies in East Africa, the missiles missed Osama Bin Ladin but did, if you remember, manage to kill two officers of the ISI. It wasn't asked loudly enough: What were these men doing in an al-Qaida camp in the first place? In those years, as in earlier ones, almost no tough questions were asked of Pakistan. Successive U.S. administrations used to keep certifying to Congress that Pakistan was not exploiting U.S. aid (and U.S. indulgence over the anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan) to build itself a nuclear weapons capacity. Indeed, it wasn't until after Sept. 11, 2001, that we allowed ourselves to learn that at least two of Pakistan's top nuclear scientists—Mirza Yusuf Baig and Chaudhry Abdul Majid—had been taken in for "questioning" about their close links to the Taliban. But then, in those days, we were too incurious to take note of the fact that Pakistan's chief nuclear operative, A.Q. Khan, had opened a private-enterprise "Nukes 'R' Us" market and was selling his apocalyptic wares to regimes as disparate as Libya and North Korea, sometimes using Pakistani air force planes to make the deliveries.

The very name Pakistan inscribes the nature of the problem. It is not a real country or nation but an acronym devised in the 1930s by a Muslim propagandist for partition named Chaudhary Rahmat Ali. It stands for Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, and Indus-Sind. The stan suffix merely means "land." In the Urdu language, the resulting acronym means "land of the pure." It can be easily seen that this very name expresses expansionist tendencies and also conceals discriminatory ones. Kashmir, for example, is part of India. The Afghans are Muslim but not part of Pakistan. Most of Punjab is also in India. Interestingly, too, there is no B in this cobbled-together name, despite the fact that the country originally included the eastern part of Bengal (now Bangladesh, after fighting a war of independence against genocidal Pakistani repression) and still includes Baluchistan, a restive and neglected province that has been fighting a low-level secessionist struggle for decades. The P comes first only because Pakistan is essentially the property of the Punjabi military caste (which hated Benazir Bhutto, for example, because she came from Sind). As I once wrote, the country's name "might as easily be rendered as 'Akpistan' or 'Kapistan,' depending on whether the battle to take over Afghanistan or Kashmir is to the fore."
I could have phrased that a bit more tightly, since the original Pakistani motive for annexing and controlling Afghanistan is precisely the acquisition of "strategic depth" for its never-ending confrontation with India over Kashmir. And that dispute became latently thermonuclear while we simply looked on. One of the most creditable (and neglected) foreign-policy shifts of the Bush administration after 9/11 was away from our dangerous regional dependence on the untrustworthy and ramshackle Pakistan and toward a much more generous rapprochement with India, the world's other great federal, democratic, and multiethnic state.
Recent accounts of murderous violence in the capital cities of two of our allies, India and Afghanistan, make it appear overwhelmingly probable that the bombs were not the work of local or homegrown "insurgents" but were orchestrated by agents of the Pakistani ISI. This is a fantastically unacceptable state of affairs, which needs to be given its right name of state-sponsored terrorism. Meanwhile, and on Pakistani soil and under the very noses of its army and the ISI, the city of Quetta and the so-called Federally Administered Tribal Areas are becoming the incubating ground of a reorganized and protected al-Qaida. Sen. Barack Obama has, if anything, been the more militant of the two presidential candidates in stressing the danger here and the need to act without too much sentiment about our so-called Islamabad ally. He began using this rhetoric when it was much simpler to counterpose the "good" war in Afghanistan with the "bad" one in Iraq. Never mind that now; he is committed in advance to a serious projection of American power into the heartland of our deadliest enemy. And that, I think, is another reason why so many people are reluctant to employ truthful descriptions for the emerging Afghan-Pakistan confrontation: American liberals can't quite face the fact that if their man does win in November, and if he has meant a single serious word he's ever said, it means more war, and more bitter and protracted war at that—not less.
Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and a media fellow at the Hoover Institution.

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2200134/

Re: # 59
Regards...

Concept of Brahman was available in as early as Chandogya Upanishads, which predates Christ...You mean to say, it was borrowed from Jewish tradition?

Re: # 51 crazyghan,
I do appreciate your (well reasoned and well presented) point of view, though we differ. please see my post#61 on this matter.

Re: # 54 rashid_s,
A reference that shows how some of the great scientists of present times have approached spirituality and/or religion is a book by Ken Wilber "Qauntum Questions".

As a reviewer describes it, "[it is]collection of writings that bridges the gap between science and religion. Quantum Questions collects the mystical writings of each of the major physicists involved in the discovery of quantum physics and relativity, including Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, and Max Planck. The selections are written in nontechnical language and will be of interest to scientists and nonscientists alike."

Just one quote from Max Plank.

"Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with.

Re: #59

And REGARDS concludes his bullshit

#57 Indian philosophical discourse evolved over time with knowledge as it should be the case and not frozen over centuries until 5th century. Athiestic philosophies, including Buddhism were the last one before Islam. Only Vedanta came after and borrowed monotheistic traits of Islam making way for nonsensical Bhakti Yoga on the lines of Sufism.
All recorded progress in astronomy, mathematics occurred during this atheistic period in India. Earlier it was more of speculations than a logical induction or deduction of natural laws and with a large dose of divine component.

#57 contd...
http://www.humanistictexts.org/carvaka.htm
http://www.humanistictexts .org/carvaka.htm

#56...
" before...."
Arabic barbarism has definitely destroyed Indian civilisation ( specially that of Ganga valley, Gandharm, Sindh etc...), but it is naive to say atheism was central to Indian idea. All types of philosophies used to exist in different regions and times ( atheist, monethis, poly atheist etc.)...

Re: # 55
Regards....

Amartya Sen is product of last part of Bengal Renaissance ( started with Iswar Chandra Bandyopadhyay). In India, such persons are quite rare now (even Viswa Bharti had become political place).

Charbak philosophy is atheist. He used to lead very poor life and due to his apathy towards rituals, he used to be treated badly by other sages (specificaly Brahmins)....

Before Islam descended on subcontinent, Indians were atheists and that's why such great progess in philosophy (including all sciences) was acheived before 5th century AD. They had very clear views on rituals. Please sample from
"If a beast slain in the Jyothishtoma rite will itself go to heaven, Why then does not the sacrificer (yajamana) forthwith offer his own father?" or
"Live merrily as long as you can. Drink ghee and even a debtor be! When this body is reduced to ashes, where is rebirth?."

It is silly to imagine any faith being considered out of the gambit of logic. Philosophy is called 'Darshan' and nto imagination and that says everything.

Nobel Prize-winner Amartya Sen, California Magazine; July-August2006 University of California at Berkeley : "In some ways people had got used to the idea that India was spiritual and religion-oriented. That gave a leg up to the religious interpretation of India, despite the fact that Sanskrit had a larger atheistic literature than exists in any other classical language. Even within the Hindu tradition, there are many people who were atheist. Madhava Acharya, the remarkable 14th century philosopher, wrote this rather great book called Sarvadarshansamgraha, which discussed all the religious schools of thought within the Hindu structure. The first chapter is "Atheism" - a very strong presentation of the argument in favor of atheism and materialism."

Mutaal
“Now, I am thinking about the anguish of atheists�.
�In protest of all religio-zealots, ………I know science and faith can coexist�
Among the learned circle, there is a misconception that FAITH and religion is one and the same thing. Not so!
Faith declares that ‘mankind’ is a brotherhood ( Eg the Muslim religion accepts sisters in ‘hood’ only!)
Religion conjures up the concept of an Institution, an organisation with an exclusive dogma and the institution’s Operatives, the Clergy with distinctive ‘getup’ and hierarchical status; separate from the common person. Therefore they are an ELITE group.
This is the very basis of division of humanity into the pious and not-so-pious people, a sort of 'haves and have-nots'
When this mindset is taken to its nth degree, we have fanaticism, and very often one props it up by finding distorted justification and excuses for it in “religions� to drag God in it. Thus the cause of our anguish.
The juxtaposition of the word faith and religion therefore is a misnomer, and as is our experience, Religion can not co-exist with Faith and Science which are the cohesive forces of humanity.
Rashid

Pinku,

AkCheema sahib is correct, I did try to bring you good tidings ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_(Sufism)

HU = "There is no reality, except God."

HU is love.
with much respect,
thinking storm

PS.
These words from holy, spiritual, Mahatama, Mullah Marx dedicated to dear near Asadi, while I take another sip of warm, green tea;

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

The use of religion and rationale/reason in making a positive assertion is as rare as seeing Earth's moon divided into two halves or seeing a talking snake trick a woman into eating an apple... RationalGod ... oxymoron? May be. Rational? No.

Rationale evolves with human experience and understanding. Religion does not, but every now and then does attempt to block the path forward or redefine itself to fit paradigm changes. It is farcical to jump straight into philosophy without even considering how farcical religion's building blocks are!

Religion was the major motivation for inciting violence, it still is. Islamic zealots went around the world spreading 'religion of peace' by sword, they still do. Religion made perfectly sane people do insane things, it still does. Religious zeal directed nations towards destruction, it still does - ask Bush. His foreign policy is driven by the belief that, in his own words, 'God wants everyone to be free', he is only playing his part!

As Dawkins said after 9/11;
"Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice. "Mindless" may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.
It came from religion..."

A rational mind would follow the weight of evidence rather than what he has been brainwashed into since early childhood. Let's comapre the evidence for evolution and the Big Bang against that for the six day creation of all elements and Noah's ark and seven skies and other works of pure fiction. Don't start using religion to prove outdated religious traditions - it is not logical.

A 'scientific' case for God!? What!? Why would something omnipotent , ever present and so conventional need 'science' for approval? Get over this hypocrisy of rejecting scientific paradigms while making incoherent claims.

Sooner or later more rational people have to apologise to Galileo and present a rather 'too little too late' apology to Darwin - it is Science and reasoning that moves forward, religious minds have to catch up. Science and reasoning aren't just born out of the blue, you have to think outside the box, and conventional wisdom aka religion is the box. This box does NOT permit perpetual change.

#48 Posted by akcheema on

love is hu! ba hu hu:-(, hoooo hooo hooo:-(

directly from hindi movies?? love is pain, dard and hence hu hu??

.. love is OM, where O is O and M is "my" rest is .... and is based on gender.. eg, O My sweet heart...


I think love is all that hindi movies say as long as you don't try to define it..

BUTT WHAT If YOU DEFINE IT..

#46 Posted by tahmed32

tahmed32,
So that is all you understood from my comments?

God doesn't need religion, whether he needs anything else like beer or alcohol is secondary..

my keyboard is giving me problem, spacebar more or less gone, else i would have killed you right now.. in the name of God, of course to prove my godly credentials..

I have my photo with God, but i can't share because God fears people may try to kill him...

Re: # 47; pinku

I think he did try .... he said "hu" ... the "ultimate" sound .... on par with "om"!!

(as used by Sultan Bahu in his poetry)

OR ... he may NOT have meant that!

Khuda Hafiz all

#40 Posted by thinkingstorm

thinkingstorm,
you didn't even try man?

Mr. Masadi #45 You forgot to mention that only those who dont believe in God have to read your article. That'll teach these pinko commie atheists!!

The rest of us, the Believers, can skip reading it, and instead go and have a beer (non-alcoholic, of course).

If people are recycling this BS let me recycle my old article on "The New Scientific Case for God", http://god.rationalreality.com

Make sure to read the linked pdf from my old and now forgotten friend Mr. Matt Agona...

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

akcheema, I have not come here "to look for Alpha" or anything sir, Alif comes to you in your heart's seeking ...
but your joke taken in good spirit ... cheers
PS: Yes, I know a lot is on-line, but I was hoping to see that happening here too ...
enough said, we can do only so much ... shab bekhair

quin sahib, [[All you need is one Alpha – let go of all this scholarshipping� ]]

may be you have come to the wrong place looking for that "Alpha" sir ..... we only have a "CreateAlpha" here .... would that do?

Re: # 41; quin
[[No one has said about Alam-Online who is inciting people to kill Ahmedis.]]

you had to go ON-LINE for that??!!

It is sad to see that no one has said a single word (except TaureenKhan) about the real incidents or the reasons for this piece of writing.

No one has said about Alam-Online who is inciting people to kill Ahmedis. No one has said a thing about that doctor who lost his life in the stairs of his clinic / home, and about the devastation which his family will face. No one has mentioned that old (above seventy year of age) harmless merchant who was killed by this rabble-rousing. No one has said a word about the blasts in Delhi and the loss of innocent life there. No one has said a word about Mujahadeen of India, and their dangerous and dirty game.

And almost all are worked up with religious arguments of one sort or other. (Please, please no disrespect is meant as some of the comments are very thought provoking – my point is their being going on tangents). It is sad that when our intelligentsia cannot figure out when to say what, what hope we can have from the masses; what hope we can have from our so called leaders (which often are reflection of our masses).

Did I write that little spontaneous response the events to convince anyone of anything, other than to show my pain and show the need of "INCLUSIVITY".

Why we have to decide what can be exclusive and absolute. What satisfaction we can derive from that other than that we can prove that we are on the right. Why we always have to show that we are on the right. Why we cannot just see humanity as all connected and all inclusive. Why not? Why we have to be exclusive? Why can’t we learn to live and let live.
This is not “fuzzy loving feely� (what was the word?) thinking. This is where we have to go in the long run. That is the state of consciousness to which we have to grow. Otherwise, we have no chance to even survive.

By the tyranny of their intellect, scholars get trapped in their arguments. And repeating it again and again they remain in an arrested developmental stage. They cannot see on the both sides of the equation. It has to be Either / Or. I have news for you. Life is not made to be in Either / Or categories. Categories are in your mind. Logic. Use it as much as you want to use, but use it where it is useful. Don’t cut everything with this sharp knife if you cannot then cook everything back to palatable dish. After you have done all analysis, learn to do some synthesis. The world is a whole. It is all one unity. From the sand grain on the far shores to the neuron in your brain – all are connected. The flap of a butterfly in Japan brings a storm in California. (This is all science – this is not figment of my imagination – read the system theory).

All the disciplines of knowledge divide their areas of expertise in different fields – often exclusive – but the knowledge of the WHOLE is glimpsed only by transcendence which comes with the one being rousing to a new plane (by that knowledge and by that inner eye which synthesizes). That is why Bulleh Shah said,
“Ikko Alif taray darker
Ilmoun bus kareen o yaar.�
(All you need is one Alpha – let go of all this scholarshipping�

Throw out all the traditions, throw out of the window Rumi, Hafiz, Bhullay shah – they all talked non-sense. And keep going on your analysis.

But take a moment and cry for once - to feel the pain to which those souls have gone through – For once read Quran to see the pain and anguish in it for humanity.

For Jahils gumrah qatils of religio-zealots will never understand that – but you may.

This was not though what I wanted to discuss. What I had hoped to see was discussion on violence and if there is a way out.

Pink, what is love?

Hu
with much respect,
thinking storm

reply karo bhai logo, love to chad kar bolta hai, thoda ootar ke hi javaab de do....

Re #36 Posted by thinkingstorm,

What is love? !#$&$@*#&^%*$....

Can we discuss this for a while??? Such a romantic subject.

All begams and girls should respond at once, without thinking:-)


What is it that you feel as love?

Cheemay, I don't think that two gods (abrahamic and scientific) can even be mentioned in the same breath. Subjective truth of organized religion cannot be put into the same sphere as universal truths. Kaal with tell you subjective truths are absolute....true but they are not universal!

cheema sahib,

you come out with all guns blazing, take no prisoner type of mentality.

as for true "sufism" .... not the piri/muridi type but the "true" version ... it is nothing but pantheism (or sexed up atheism!) .... with all the "overflowing love" attempting to smother others (whether they want to be smothered or not!) ... they just din't/don't have the opportunity/courage to say it out loud!!

Bhai, what do you suggest should replace love? Misanthropy?

As far as atheism is concerned, it is a ridiculous concept that is opposed by all levels of reality.

I don't read much on the topics you talk about, but surely Kaal bhai will set you straight.
with much respect,
thinking storm

.... btw, has anyone noticed at the number of "versions" of the "same" there are?? ..... surely only one can be right? no? ..... if so, by what criteria? ....

.....then again we are in the realm of fairytales so I wouldn't hold my breath for a logical answer any time soon! .... I only hope God is enjoying his own sadistic joke!!

Re: # 33; Rabia

you make a good point in the second para of your post. The "God of Religion" as perceived by muslims/christians/jews and the "God of the Philosopher/Scientist" are two very distinct entities .... lightyears apart from one another. When one denies the existence of God, one rejects the "God of Religion" ... which is an exclusive concept.

I wonder what quin or other sufis etc would think about this "exclusive" nature of the God he is so in love with?? It is very clear from the "Book" as to what that "God" wants its followers to do ... trying to give it a "fuzzy warm feeling of love" is a state of denial at its best ... less said the better on that!

I'd also like to quote another atheistic scientist (since Dawkins has been thought to be "a biologist commenting on the 'wrong subject'"! ... It is none other than Albert Einstein:

“It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.�

(Albert Einstein, 1947; from Banesh Hoffmann, Albert Einstein Creator and Rebel, New York: New American Library, 1972, p. 95.)


“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.�

(Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.)



“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.�

(Albert Einstein, upon being asked if he believed in God by Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York, April 24, 1921, published in the New York Times, April 25, 1929)

.................................

For someone to suggest that we are talking about the "same .. same" God as the God of Religion is a fallacy and quite frankly stupidity of the highest order!!

Like I said before, the two concepts are lightyears apart!! ... and Naqshbandi sahib has captured the soul of the "interventionist God" by acknowledging that "no two religious philosophies are the same" ... that would be absurd. One "believes" in one by rejecting (conciously or sub-conciously) the other! ... can't do "both" together .... that'd be just absurd!!

as for true "sufism" .... not the piri/muridi type but the "true" version ... it is nothing but pantheism (or sexed up atheism!) .... with all the "overflowing love" attempting to smother others (whether they want to be smothered or not!) ... they just din't/don't have the opportunity/courage to say it out loud!!

...............................

as for hamidm sahib's post .... LOL sir! some of us are also waiting for the new episode in the al-lah/Gabby/mo saga too ... in your own time of course! .... I remembered Ghalib whilst reading the first para from Genesis (hamidm version) ...

"na tha kuchh tau khuda tha, kuchh na hota tau khuda hota;
daboya mujh ko honey ne, na hota mein tau keya hota".

take care and Khuda Hafiz all

khurram: hmm but couldn't you say that anyone who believed in some kind of universal truth would also have to believe that it was final and exclusive? (i.e. they believed that anyone who didn't believe it was absolutely wrong?) I think this is what Naqshabandi was arguing in #24

So I guess there are 2 solutions: either humanity must stop believing in universal truths or there must be a way to regulate how different groups subscribing to what they consider to be universal truths must interact (which is what I think Islam's biggest problem is)

I think Eklavya is articulating (if I understand him correclty) a basic problem that must be addressed by Islam and Christianity.
How can a Universal Truth be actualized in a form that claims finality and exclusivity?

Re: # 29
"..... ask for agreement"
No one is asking for agreement. And this is premise of your argument bhai, and therefore you may like to qualify it when you return.

Kaal meray bhai,

"that Islam essentially teaches Hindu philosophy to Arab brethren"

Islam is not limited to Arabs. Sigh. There comes that geographically bound religious notion again .

Second. Islam, as with other religions, teaches us how to be fair and just to others, and how to improve ourselves. You can label that what you want...but those are traits shared in many religions.

I have no interest in equating hinduism with Islam. There is no need, and there is certainly no compulsion in religion.

with much respect,
thinking storm

Salimbro

That has to be TS bhai. If he can digest both ghazali ji's views on one hand and al arabi bhai's views on the other, and be equally certain of both reprsenting the essence of religion, then he is a far greater man than I :)

-----------------

ts bhai, the deceptiveness is in the following (from Quin bhai's post earlier on another thread)

(1) "Personally speaking, Mansour’s Inal Haq is not hama oast. Sufi tradition is firmly grounded in Quranic tradition and derives its ecstasy from the WORDS of Quran."

(2) "It is not a matter of believing in certain type of theology. Fundamentally, Sufi tradition wants us to take beyond all theologies and .."

(3) "transmits the experience of elation which comes from hearing what Quran tell us and seeing what it wants to show us."

-----

Now Finding out that Al Arabi is saying just what Hindu/Indic sages had been saying for ages is not the issue (unless you can tell us that shankaracharya and al arabi are saying very different things). The issue is the claim that the Quran's basic message too is the same as Shankaracharya's or al arabi's.

It may be. But that assertion needs to be logically, PUBLICLY, defended before those who would find such claim (that Islam essentially teaches Hindu philosophy to Arab brethren) absurd in the extreme.

One can't simply claim that be a 'personal interpretation,' close one's eyes, wave hands magically, spread love, recite shakespeare, and announcing issues to be enormous and complex, ask for agreement.

Only people who clearly aim to be deceptive would take that approach.

This will have to be the last post of the day for me, but would love to read your response when I return. Thanks.

----------------

quin bhai

huh? You put that bhai in quotes, and I misinterpreted it? LOL

Bhaijan, let's leave that behind. You probably wrote that in a fit of pique and we need not dwell over it.

My opposition is only to your ideas.

Re: # 19 Eklavya, (and all)
Though this was not the worthy challenge I was looking for, this does warrant a response.

Quote around ‘bhai’ were meant to acknowledge your use of it as I am like "once bitten twice shy". (communication, communication, communication – we all need to keep working on that – how one says one thing and other takes it as something else)

Though you have very quickly lost temper and resorted to personal attack, which is just as revealing of our desi temperament as of futility of our arguments, yet still I do wish to acknowledge that I still do consider that in humanity we are all brothers and sisters and wish you no ill and if I have hurt you inadvertently, I am sorry for that. The futility of argument though already is made plain clear and that is why I said what I said, though nothing personal was meant by that. As before, you have interpreted it wrong bhaijan.

I appreciate your keeping “religiosity� and “spirituality� demarcated, but I am at loss to understand what is that you consider as my “religiosity�. And if you are spiritual, as you say, and for which I have no reason to doubt, why this bitterness?

In nano-second you accuse me of intoxication. Probably I am - and I am proud to be – because I am drunk with the ecstasy that Quran brings to this humble heart. All I desire is that others too can enjoy that sense of elation. I wish not to convert or convince anyone either of secular mind or of religious bent or propagate my "religiosity" , .

(Reminds me of saga of Umar – who wanted to kill the Prophet, and hearing Quran became its lover in an instant – no debate was carried out there)

All I can hope is that elation which Quran brings to its lover could be understood, so that this heritage of humanity can be seen in a light which has mostly gone out of view these days. And that is why I will keep protesting its misinterpretation either by fundamentalists or by others. Thrust of my present effort was protest against fundamentalist and religio-zealots who are inciting violence.

Just with that intention I wrote what I wrote. Why your spirituality could not see that? Why not a many supported that effort, and just started bashing on the side issues. Why they cannot see where the thrust of my ‘article’ is?

And all those who supported or understood it, or contributed in one way or other, I am grateful for that.

Note to those who wonder why this article is published.
First, I do not claim this publication to be scholarly exposition, nor I profess that it is an analytical article. (That is why I italicized the word ‘article’ in my responses). The ‘article’ is a personal response, like a poem. Say it is a poem in prose. Have there not been so many different genres published at Chowk from personal commentaries to travelogues to satire to all sorts of poetry. Chowk does not just publish analytical articles. And this personal response does bring an emerging view point of people like me who are dismayed at the turn of events and are cornered or overwhelmed by it. It is reflection of hopelessness of our situation. It almost feels like what it is to be a persecuted minority.

Publication of my response also is revealing in terms of Chowk editor’s view point for those who can discern it. Others can just continue with their diatribe.

Salim pi,

you're under the smell of someone odious and odorous to make such malignant claims!
with much respect,
thinking storm

#24 Naqshbandi

Kaal bhai, Sufi Naqshbandi walliullah (may his fragrance be multiplied and never bottled and sold for a measely $5 a pop), has stated the sufi position.

So now you can be convinced that I am no sufi, nor do I play one on chowk.
with much respect,
thinking storm

TS Payee and Eklavya,
Dear Dandaan Pi and Brother Kaal Chakra,
I am now absolutely convinced that one or both of you is the one and final reincarnation of the supreme spirit.

btw the idea that all faiths can be right at the same time is logically impossible since they all make mutually exclusive claims...

I have read Dawkins and, in general, admire his work. His mistake is to assume that nothing exists which cannot be explained by the Rational Mind. Thus he dismisses all spiritual knowledge. Actually, al-Ghazali had exactly the same experience earlier--as did Kant--and Descartes--but the difference was that Ghazali--may His secret be sanctified--finally found the 'certainty' he was looking for in the spiritual experiences of the Sufis. He writes about this in his masterful autobiography, 'Deliverance from Error'. (al-munqidh min al-dalaal). Interestingly his earlier skepticism for religious belief was initially aroused by thinking of the same problem which Dawkins was quoted as exploring by some earlier poster: viz. that a person almost always takes the faith of his or her parents...

this thought led Ghazali on a similar path to Prof. Dawkins except that Ghazali was open-minded enough to take the Sufis at their word too and tried their method for obtaining 'certain knowledge' --and he found it. Dawkins seems to much the fanatical atheist to do that.

Christopher Hitchens is another militant atheist whose work and lectures I listen to. THough Dawkins at least leaves open the --'highly unlikely' (in his words) possibility that he is wrong!

and this from a hindu sage, that knows not TS bhai and his so called deceptiveness ;)

"Shankaracharaya says

" No birth, no death, no caste have I;
Father, mother, have I none.
I am He, I am He, Blessed spirit, I am He!""
with much respect,
thinking storm

"but don't waste a lifetime quibbling and bickering while missing the bigger picture ;)"
with much respect,
thinking storm

Kaal bhai,

I can believe that my family in Pakistan eats good food when they eat daal roti, and believe that the Ghanian family eating Okra with Samovita is also eating good food, although I may not have a taste for that food myself.

The basic premise however, is that even without religion you can find the divine. So follow or don't follow, but don't waste a lifetime quibbling and bickering and missing the bigger picture ;)

Two quotes from previous posts worth quoting:

"Your simplification of what I said reminds me of simplification of fundamentalists." (quin)

"I am sorry you had to put quotes around bhai. Bhaijan, both of us are human so there is this brotherhood (unless you wish to deny that brotherhood)" (Kaal bhai)

I agree with both quotes.

with much respect,
thinking storm

I am sorry you had to put quotes around bhai. Bhaijan, both of us are human so there is this brotherhood (unless you wish to deny that brotherhood)

You must be smoking something strong, and not just ordinary charas, if you think I am in anyway denying the value and roles of spirituality and intutition and inspiration and so on.

Bhaijan, I embrace all that, probably no less than you.

I reject your "religiosity" (not your *spirituality*) as TOTALLY fake - one that cannot stand basic human scrutiny, from any side, one that relies on little more than childish blindness at best and dust and smokescreen at worst.

Re: # 17 Eklavya,
That is your interpretation 'bhai'.
That is how we mire ourselves in superficialities. Your simplification of what I said reminds me of simplification of fundamentalists. I am sorry that I had to say this.

Logic and reasoning has its place, and all our progress and enlightenment won't happen without it. The science, mathematics, and philosophy are beacons of life and so is spirituality. The intuition has its own place. And that has been a guiding light too and will remain so as far as we human live.

Even the ancient Greeks knew this much. In modern times, Thoreau said, knowledge comes in flashes - not in details. And Shakespeare said in Hamlet:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I have nothing more to say on the topic, unless someone throws a worthy challenge.

So Quin bhai

Based on #14, your message for all those atheists, religious rebels, and non-Muslims who might disagree with or reject the basic assertions of Islam is:

1. Not to think
2. To experience subjectively
3. To get a glimpse of what 'Great Masters' saw, even though these people may completely disagree with these 'Great Masters.'

In so doing, individually and separately (or learning from Sufi 'Masters'), all these atheists, religious rebels, and non-Muslims will arrive at the Truth, and the True Spirit of ALL Religions, and hence find agreement with you. If not, then these atheists, religious rebels, and non-Muslims haven't 'felt' or 'experienced' enough - not with enough "open heart" or "sufficient love".

The key thing is NOT to let logic bother oneself at any time, logic being limited and so on. Logic will mislead (unless one's logic leads to acecpeting whatever you are suggesting). Right?


---------

It was also interesting to learn that Allah's Final Message, the Quran, was not meant to be related to religion - perfect or imperfect (except as an "experience" that everyone may have on their own level).

But that is another story - fascinating in its own right.

Thanks Quin Bhai

Below is the post I had written earlier in the day but did not post because I thought it might be better to hear you out first.

-----------------


mohar

That is the problem. There is nothing that you or anyone else can say should happen which a sufi will not tell you, totally straight-faced, without batting a single eyelid a single time, that he (or sufism) does not already do.

Since a sufi's basic messaage is NOT to think, he does not mind telling you, again straight faced, that he fully believes in the Quran (Final Message), Allah (only True God), and Prophet Muhammad (Last Prophet from the only True God) (and his last sermon), * AND * -

1. all religions including kafirism and atheism are the same or have the same end (except that non-Musims have gotten things a bit wrong)

2. does not see any distinctions between Muslims, non-Muslims, kafirs and loves them all equally (yet fully believes in the Quran and Prohet Muhammad's last sermon).

3. so already believes in vasudhaiva kutumbukum (the entire earth is one family).

4. That non-Muslims should accept all this based on sufi 'love' (for Prophet Muhammad and Allah and Allah's - the True God's - creations). And of couse, based on nice "poetry" that everyone should "feel" rather thank think about.

And so on.

I am not sure if Quin bhai is any different from TS bhai, but we should wait for him to explain how he agrees or disagrees with Dawkins, first.

Dawkins:"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference...

Here is a prime case of a biologist who knows damn all about cosmology pontificating on it, while ignoring the purpose that prominent cosmologist say lurks behind the very finely tuned design of the universe. This guy is a fanatic who should be fired from whatever university he teaches at, and sent to Afghanistan to train with similar fanatics of the Taliban variety. There he might get a better grasp of his no good, persona, in a pitiless fashion!

To respond to some criticism, I just want to clarify one thing. This issue of how the religion should be approached is an issue which has been discussed ad infinitum and will be discussed ad nauseam. This ‘article’ is written more in protest and not as an argument.

(Eklavya, it is Chowk’s prerogative to publish or not – it reflects their view of what may have value for the readers or not)

The ‘article’ is also written to give credence to genuine argument and anguish of the secular approach. My personal approach is based on my conviction which comes from my experience. Sacred texts were never meant as theological treatises, nor were they meant as books of information. They were meant to be experienced. That is where the whole issue comes to a stop. It is not easy to find an intersection and that is why this discussion based merely on logic, literal meanings and linear thinking will either go on forever or will come to a halt. What I have expressed in this ‘article’ is my personal view (it is the way I see and feel when I read any of the Sacred texts)

Call it subjective - it is an experience as I said - and I have no intention to justify it on logical basis. Logic gleans only at the surface. It cannot penetrate deep enough to see the whole reality. We often forget that language based on logic is only a tool for exploring a limited field of knowledge. If the logical expression could communicate or illuminate everything, we won't need other arts - literature, music, visual and performing arts. (And that is exactly why we write poetry too, because logic can only take us so far. )

I recall here a quote from Saint Augustine. He said, "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."

In brief, fountainheads of every spiritual tradition (which in the hands of logic became religions as we commonly know them today) were in love with humanity and desired humanity's deliverance. The revelations did not come from vacuum; neither would IT come to anyone. And what those spiritual masters could see through revelation, they desired to show others. But often they were persecuted mercilessly because often it ran against the existing norms.
Again, that is where the problem starts. That is the juncture where we want to stand to reflect and see what we may see.

The secret is to get at least a glimpse of what THEY WERE SEEING. All the rest is, as someone has said, a commentary.

crazysh** writes "Staying with the delusion fact, let me quote Marx:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

Before you start quoting Marx, like a damn fool, try to understand what he is writing and in which context. He is studying bourgeoisie society and notices the use of religion as part of the superstructure of capitalism- and that "religion", the one that is preponderant under the bourgeoisie is the one he calls "opium"- generalizing in this fashion is idiocy of the highest calibre. In fact I consider Marx a deeply spiritual/religious person in his morality and final purpose towards the common man.

That said, this bs paragraph of an article should never have been recycled again on the front page. It looks like chowk staff have become jamadars so that they look all over the dumpsters for articles to publish, while censoring alternative points of view elaborated in much superior articles.

What should I say but that they should keep grovelling in their dirt because that is what they deserve...

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

The Children's Bible in a Nutshell

(the source is unknown but i think it might have been urstruly before he read the koran and became confused )


In the beginning, which occurred near the start, there was nothing but
God, darkness, and some gas. The Bible says,
'The Lord thy God is one, but I think He must be a lot older than
that.

Anyway, God said, 'Give me a light!' and someone did.

Then God made the world.

He split the Adam and made Eve. Adam and Eve were naked, but they
weren't embarrassed because mirrors hadn't been invented yet.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating one bad apple, so they were
driven from the Garden of Eden.
Not sure what they were driven in though, because they didn't have
cars.

Adam and Eve had a son, Cain, who hated his brother as long as he was Abel.

Pretty soon all of the early people died
off, except for Methuselah, who lived to be like a million or something.

One of the next important people was Noah, who was a good guy, but one
of his kids was kind of a Ham. Noah built a large boat and put his family
and some animals on it. He asked some other people to join him, but they
said they would have to take a rain check.

After Noah came Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob was more famous
than his brother, Esau, because Esau sold Jacob his birthmark in
exchange for some pot roast. Jacob had a son named Joseph who wore a
really loud sports coat.

Another important Bible guy is Moses, whose real name was Charlton
Heston. Moses led the Israel Lights out of Egypt
and away from the evil Pharaoh after God sent ten plagues on Pharaoh's
people. These plagues included frogs, mice, lice, bowels, and no cable.

God fed the Israel Lights every day
with manicotti. Then he gave them His Top Ten Commandments.
These include: don't lie, cheat, smoke, dance, or covet your neighbor's stuff.

Oh, yeah, I just thought of one more:
Humor thy father and thy mother.

One of Moses' best helpers was Joshua who was the first Bible guy to
use spies. Joshua fought the battle of Geritol and the fence fell over
on the town.

After Joshua came David. He got to be king by killing a giant with a
slingshot. He had a son named Solomon who had about 300 wives and 500 porcupines.
My teacher says he was wise, but that doesn't sound very wise to me.

After Solomon there were a bunch of major league prophets.
One of these was Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then
barfed up on the shore. There were also some minor league prophets,
but I guess we don't have to worry about them.

After the Old Testament came the New Testament. Jesus is the star of
The New. He was born in Bethlehem in a barn.
(I wish I had been born in a barn too, because my mom is always saying
to me, 'Close the door! Were you born in a barn?' It would be nice to say,
'As a matter of fact, I was.')

During His life, Jesus had many arguments with sinners like the
Pharisees and the Republicans.

Jesus also had twelve opossums.
The worst one was Judas Asparagus. Judas was so evil that they named
a terrible vegetable after him.

Jesus was a great man. He healed many leopards and even preached to
some Germans on the Mount.

But the Republicans and all those guys put Jesus on trial before
Pontius the Pilot. Pilot didn't stick up for Jesus. He just washed
his hands instead.

Anyways, Jesus died for our sins, then came back to life again.
He went up to Heaven but will be back at the end of the Aluminum. His
return is foretold in the book of Revolution

paradox
[...say that every religion is from God and it does not matter which one is followed...]

This goes completely against the very core of many prominent religions, particularly the bedouin-originated ones - mohemedan, christian... so this is not happening...

Eastern religions do profess this concept - "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam" is one core concept in hinduism, buddhism ... but they are not "powerful" enough to promote this worldwide...

Staying with the delusion fact, let me quote Marx:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

Give them enough of it and they will want more and it will become the center and purpose of their existence. Thousands and millions of addicts will follow and obey the suppliers. That is precisely what makes religion so different from rational thinking and yet so dangerous.

I may not be a great fan of Marxist totalitarianism but based on what I have observed through first hand experience in Afghanistan and Pakistan, I can only commend him for this thought.

TaureanKhan, I share your thoughts.

This one from Dawkins:

"Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."

It’s very important that representative of every religion, if they care about humanity, come out and say that every religion is from God and it does not matter which one is followed. That’s where the problem is. The notion that my religion is the only true religion creates the entire problem but then what about the “bread and butter" of those poor mullahs, priests, pundits. How would they sell there brand of God.

"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."

From Dawkin's perspective, worshipping any (ultimate) 'God' makes no sense, and deep faith, even less.

So Quin bhai's full-faith sufism's use of Dawkins was confusing. Hopefully, he will explain...

Re: # 5

... and the last line was addressed to TaureanKhan and not quin

apologies again

Correction ... that was

.... Rumi-esque ..... (not Runi)

apologies

Hi Taurean ... long time man!

I just came back to leave you guys with a few more beautiful quotations by my "spiritual" mentor Professor Dawkins (a Chair at Oxford is nothing to be sneezed at I reckon!) He says (quite appropriate here):

"If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naïve and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?"

On the 'God' explanation! he says:

"I don't think God is an explanation at all. It's simply redescribing the problem.
We are trying to understand how we have got a complicated world, and we have an explanation in terms of a slightly simpler world, and we explain that in terms of a slightly simpler world and it all hangs together down to an ultimately simple world.
Now, God is not an explanation of that kind. God himself cannot be simple if he has power to do all the things he is supposed to do."

and as far as the ongoing 'suffering' in this world that gets the juices flowing for many ... including my Runi-esque brethren, here is what goes on in HIS universe;

"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."

I just thought a "recap" for quin sahib was in order ....

... Khuda Hafiz Taurean, Eklavya and Quin .... btw quin, regarding your comment about not having likeminded "pakhtoon" company, good riddance to old rubbish my friend ... their loss, definitely NOT yours! though I am hoping for a compromise but it takes time! (take it from me!)

Deep-faith sufism, Quin bhai, may serve the purpose of Islamic escapism, but I am not sure it works very well for the purposes of religious rebellion and atheism within Islam.

Please explain if you see deep-faith sufism taking up those roles.

Quin bhai

A bit surprised to find this here. It seemed perfectly fitted to the ilog section where people do all sorts of loud thinking. On FP, an article should have some argument.

To your credit, you are completely a person of faith. A real believer in the infallibility of the Quran and Allah.

Like all good Muslims, you believe (your) religion has been hijacked by people who don't understand Islam. And that other people have corrupted their religions by not fully understanding the 'real spirit' of their religions (which, of course, goes without saying, else there would have been no need for Quranic revelations in the first place).

So, like any good person of faith, you are saddened by the loss of life, and share the sadness of an atheist like Dawkins. Yet your own views on religion are dramatically different from his. Dawkins believes that religion invariably causes mischief. You believe religion has been misunderstood.

Is that it? Did we miss anything?

Mutaal

Your words echo my feelings.... a severe identity crisis... disgusted and anxious at what is happening in NWFP/FATA - my 'watan'... rejecting religion has been by kneejerk reaction... (presently reading the Dawkins book...thanks to a friend who introduced me to it!!)... I find praying to a God absolutely ridiculous!!! I am more and more realising that there is NO personal god.... that concept does not make sense.... there IS a god but not in the anthromorphic form we give it... and by the way,why does god want one set of people to be the 'recievers' of truth, hence making them KILL for that preconceived notion of truth??? why not god simply show everyone in clear terms who HE is and save us all the fighting and killing??

....and you know what!!! I am feeling really free.... not in the sense that I can do ANYTHING.... but in the sense that I can use my own INTELECT and DECIDE the best course of moral action.... I am RESPONSIBLE for my own actions and thoughts...

BUT there has been a cost to my new found freedom from religion... I am moving away from the local Paki/pukhtoon community,cant tolerate their religosity and their double standards....
but I do want to stick to my cultural mores...the music, poetry etc...BUT please!!! NOT THE DESI BRAND OF RELIGOSITY.... interestingly i am coming across many Pakis who share my views...BUT very few pukhtoons... I think I am enjoying the company of my Indian friends more!! sharing the same culture but avoiding the religious baggage!!!

[[When the true spirit of religion (the pain and anguish which you can see in every Sacred text) get so perverted, when the man become devil incarnate in the hands of religion, when the earth is turned into hell, ....]]

this IS the "true spirit" of religion .... any religion but specially the ones that revere "death more than life" ... when the suiciders claims being hurt "less than a gnat's bite ... before they take their final journey to the promised gardens with rivers of milk and honey ... amongst other things" ..... wake up and smell the coffee quin .... this has been going on since time immemorial .... you have only just caught up with the memo!