The Marriott Bombing: ‘Pakistan’s 9/11’?

WAR FOR TERROR MOTIVES by FM Shah

“There is nothing more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things.�
NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI

US initial official motive of WAR FOR TERROR was bringing evil forces like Al-Qaeada and master minds of 9/11 to justice. This motive was later on changed to fight for democracy and liberty against dark forces of Taliban and extremism. USA critics have stated various motives of WAR FOR TERROR which vary from Iraq/Afghanistan occupation, sectarian/regional violence, oil monopoly, denuclearization of Pakistan, map redrawing of Pakistan and clash of civilization. However WAR FOR TERROR architects will try their best to conceal the real motives till final conclusion and achievements of their objectives. At the same time, Pakistan state and its establishment has tailored US official version WAR FOR TERROR for its own interests. These interests vary from economic aid, military hardware, legitimacy and opportunities for corruption loot/plunder, dealing with iron hand to any political, economic issues, crisis or rival.
US banks and financial markets during last century have been designed and structured around cycles of wars, chaos and violence across the globe away from US mainland. Starting with WW I (initiated by Non-state agents), each US recession/depression alternate with some war in some other part of the world away from US main land. USA during last century planned thoroughly and laid the necessary groundwork for the growth of the most powerful defense/aerospace industry worth trillion dollars. As a result if we sum up today technological might of US, it includes only Banking/Finance, IT and Defense/Aerospace Industry. In these industries US firms have monopoly and do not have ant parallel/equal competitor in whole world (including G8 countries). Each war, conflict or crisis creates direct consumption for US defense/aerospace industry. Each war/crisis is followed by construction and public work, which is mostly done by US firms/cartels. Examples are Europe (after WW II) and Iraq reconstruction recently. Each war, conflict and map redrawing has created new US dependant states. Examples are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Saudi Arabia is depended on USA for last seven decades for all external and internal threats. Pakistan during its existence for last six decades is dependant on USA for military hardware and financial aid due to similar on going wars, crisis and breeding violence across its Western and Eastern borders. Wars, crisis and violence also create favorable and monopolistic business/trade conditions for most of US firms and MNCs. Similarly wars, violence and crisis also result flow of capital from whole globe to US main land, which has remained safe from any war, violence and crisis during last century. Whereas US has been remained direct/indirect sponsor and actor in each war, violence and crisis during last one century. Therefore wars act as agents for pulling US economy out of recession due to enhanced public spending, reconstruction work after war and preferential monopolies over trade/resource. Transparency international Bribe payers index 2002, ranks defence industry as the 2nd most corrupt business sector- just ahead of oil and gas sector but behind the public works and construction sectors. On domestic front, wars also divert attention from structural flaws in US economic/financial system. Unemployment and inflation in US reached record heights during great depression of 1930s. Great depression was followed by World War II (in 1940s). Similarly in economic recession, US embarked wars and adventures away from main land like Korean, Vietnam and Kuwait Wars. (For relationship between US economic depression and Wars, kindly refer to Fig 4.4 Page 73 & Fig 6.6 Page 116. The Economy Today-8th Edition by Professor Bradley Schiller).
Oil is traded in dollars and most of the Arab oil dollars are saved in US banks considered to be safe havens. WAR FOR TERROR resulted turmoil and chaos in Arab countries, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. This turmoil escalated oil and commodities prices exponentially during last several years. Hence WAR FOR TERROR was indispensable and crucial bailout package for US Banks and Financial Markets. As an example Pakistan oil import bill was US $ 2 Billion in 2000 whereas in 2007 Pakistan oil import bill shoot upto US $ 12 Billion. So in this way additional US $ 10 Billion were diverted to US Banks and financial markets through Arabs from Pakistan economy. Just consider oil import for whole world and billions/trillions US $ directed from the whole globe toward US banks due to escalating oil prices. Without WAR FOR TERROR and oil price escalation US Banks and Financial Markets would have been failed much earlier than 2008. Moreover required bailout package would have been much greater than US $ 700 Billion. Recent decline in oil prices after US bank bailout package also give an idea about structural flaw in US banking/financial markets and its dependency on oil dollars. At domestic front, fear environment of WAR FOR TERROR also made US $ 700 billion unobjectionable to US Taxpayers. Similarly after Arab-Isreal 1973 and Kuwait War oil prices escalated, which helped US banking systems and financial markets. WAR FOR TERROR regional turmoil had also resulted drag on US rival economies of China, Russia, India, Arab and Iran. These countries are almost half of the globe. As US economy was unable to remain competitive and correct its own structural gaps. Therefore WAR FOR TERROR was initiated for restricting and limiting US rival economies growth. Hence the basic motivation of WAR FOR TERROR is chaos and anarchy in the whole globe through Islam and Muslim regions which are safest, vulnerable and easiest targets for US. Other various factors ranging from Al-Qaeada, Taliban, extremism, violence, oil monopoly, denuclearization of Pakistan, map redrawing of Pakistan and civilization clash are not root causes of WAR FOR TERROR rather these all are natural outcome/effects of the WAR FOR TERROR. Therefore these are secondary in nature and mostly misleading. As an example if there is car accident due to brake failure. After accident wind screen, complete body and wheel steering system are damaged. Now in this case wheel steering system is not the root cause rather it is affect of the occurrence.
Pakistan political, defense decision makers’ and military commanders committed suicide by joining US WAR FOR TERROR for saving Pakistan from direct US confrontation and carpet bombing. PPP political leadership in Islamabad is claiming that during last seven years, WAR FOR TERROR has become Pakistan war for state survival. These claims, doubts, fears, conspiracies and assertions have been debated at multiple levels in Media, parliament and mass level. Various explanations, justifications, motives and reasons are presented for WAR FOR TERROR. Disinformation/disorientation campaigns for local/international establishment agenda has increased exponentially during recent times. Such disinformation/disorientation campaigns are paid, sponsored and engineered by local/international establishment for creating justification of ethnic cleansing of Tribal Pathans on one hand by Army and other side by US Drones. Pakistani press/electronic media like establishment considers/present themselves as CHAMPIONS OF TRUTH, DEMOCRASY, and JUSTICE. Various anchors pretend asking tough/hard questions and saving Pakistan from Western/India. However media at best are manipulating and comprising the truth by showing half picture of crisis. Most of the time media avoid context and conceal motives of the ongoing crisis and chaos in Pakistan. Media can never tip-toe out of the false perception minefield that they have allowed themselves to be lured into by the CIA, Pakistani ruling establishment and architects of WAR FOR TERROR. TV Anchors most of the times are bounded by policy, life threats, job fears, temptations, easy going attitude, incompetence and lack of quality research on social science. Any TV channel prime motivation is money, revenue, coverage, ads and sponsors not truth. As an example, Media have never been able to ask simple questions about worst case scenario if Pakistan is invaded by US just like Iraq/Afghanistan. Are there any war plans for such worst case scenario? Will Pakistanis suffer same fate of Abu Gharaib and Bagram Jail? Avoiding confrontation with US is understood, however it does not exempt Pakistan State and Armed Forces from preparing War Plans for emerging war threat similar to Iraq/Afghan. In 1990s, none in whole Islamic world could imagine about possible US occupation of Afghanistan. However it is almost impossible to fight two wars simultaneously, thousands miles away from mainland, without military and strategic planning spanning over decades. One of best known example is 1967 Arab-Israel War. Israel Air Forces were practicing offensive air operation against Arab since 1957 for almost 12 years. Whereas Arab Media and their puppet leadership were sleeping like prostitutes.
Now question arise will dramas similar to so called terrorism 9/11 and weapon of mass destruction be staged for invading other countries. Will US invade Pakistan or sponsor civil war in Pakistan. Has India committed suicidal mistake like Pakistan (in September 2001) by joining WAR FOR TERROR for settling scores against Pakistan? Will India be able to pull out itself toward safe/straight policy of Iran or Turkey by not sponsoring civil war along its 1800 KMs long border alongwith Pakistan? These are hard and tough question. It is not possible to precisely answers in white and black. Nonetheless temporary failures/setbacks in Afghanistan or Iraq may only delay US aggressive plans against Pakistan. Pakistan and whole regional actors overall interests should provide the framework for rethinking about evolving philosophy of war and changing enemy/threat perception. Pakistan should prevent conflict/war with US or India as a strategic priority since this would allow concentrating more on socio-economic development.

If you know the enemy and know your self, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle. SUN TZU
Pakistan war plans, threat perception, security policy and defense doctrine have been revolving around India as traditional enemy during last fifty years. It was based on two pronged policy of conventional military buildup and nuclear deterrence. However past fifty years Pakistan conventional threat perception is incompatible with evolving war philosophy and battle planning after 9/11. Iraq and Afghanistan have totally changed war initiation patterns and rules of engagements between various states and non-state actors. Therefore in short term, Pakistan as deterrence should adopt a simple war strategy of Guerilla Warfare for responding to any US design for expanding WAR FOR TERROR into Pakistan. Pakistan have to revamp all its war games/plans accordingly. In long term Pakistan has to gear up its defense policies and boost air power as future wars initiated by hypothetical non state actors will be exclusively between asymmetrical adversaries. This fear of facing US will not only boost our national integrity but in long term it will also add new dimensions and life to our defense industry in private sector and self indigenization. Perception of strong enemy means strong commitments for nation survival and history is full of example where nations excelled only due to fear of some strong enemies just. Further it will send a new form of message to super powers and their policy makers while planning invasion on Pakistan. It will delay any possible aggressive plans against Pakistan. Germans after humiliating defeat and strict restrictions on Defence/Aviation industry as result of WWW I were able to raise quite effective/capable Defence/air power during WWW II supported by its aviation industry based in private sector within short span of 5 to 7 years only. The same engineering and technological base is still helping German industries, which are best in the world. By capturing of only 2 % of world aircraft/Defence market, Pakistan will have foreign exchange worth billions, create thousands jobs and make us self reliant in Arms Power capabilities. After capturing 2 % of the Defence world market, we will not need IMF, World Bank or conquering music, dance and film industry.

The purpose of the article was to discuss the WAR FOR TERROR and options for Pakistan Defence. This discussion is important, most critical, to the future of Pakistan and whole region. It should be reiterated that this is not intended to be a stand-alone study. Rather, these comments and suggestions are meant as a contribution to the continuous work of a doctrine and in particular to respond to evolving philosophy of war and new threat perspective for Pakistan and whole region in terms of economy and security. As such, while the article seeks to highlight issues that were considered to be of the most importance, there is no pretence towards comprehensiveness or detail. However, while it is not possible to get into the nitty gritty of every particular suggestion, attempt were made to define options and solutions at level of detail that underscores the practicality of the suggestion. However, it should be stressed that most important element are the broad directional changes recommended in the article.

In peace prepare for war, in war prepare for peace. The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected. SUN TZU

Various explanations, justifications, motives and reasons are presented for WAR FOR TERROR. US stated official motive of WAR FOR TERROR is fight against Al-Qaeada, Taliban and extremism. Many corrupt/de-facto colonial third world countries like Pakistan and Indian governments and establishment always tailor US official version WAR FOR TERROR for its own interests. These interests vary from economic aid, military hardware, legitimacy and open liberty for dealing with iron hand to any political, economic issues, crisis or rival.
Al-Qaida is the top secret code name of special covert operations of the U.S. CIA, Israeli Mossad, British SIS, Indian RAW and Pakistani ISI. Al-Qaida is a fake name, an imaginary illusion, a deceptive fraud, a fictitious hoax and a fraudulent scam of the unlawful war for terror, which is still being cunningly and clandestinely supported and promoted by the CIA, Mossad, SIS, RAW, ISI and the Corrupt Mercenary Media (CMM) to frame, blame, defame, harm and kill innocents Pakistanis, Kashmiris, Indians, Afghans, Arabs, Muslims/Hindus and other innocent humans by falsely and maliciously labeling them as the Al-Qaida militants, extremists, or terrorists. Actually, Al-Qaida or Al-CIA-da is the CIA. Al-Qaida is the Mossad. Al-Qaida is the SIS. Al-Qaida is the RAW. Al-Qaida is the ISI. Al-Qaida is the CMM. The CIA, Mossad, SIS, RAW, ISI and the CMM are the real Al-Qaida or 'the Evil 6'. For the sake of international peace, reform or abolish the CIA, Mossad, SIS, RAW and the ISI; oppose and expose the CMM; and end the illegal war of terror now to reduce global terrorism. Indeed, imperialistic military occupation of any country, state, or nation is state terrorism. Civil terror is a natural reaction to government terror."
Al Qaeda and Taliban is an “imaginary force� created by CIA, through which third world countries like Pakistan and Indian governments, ruling elite and establishment interest converge with USA. Pakistan state, military/political ruling elite and establishment have been trapped and addicted to US dollars/support for last fifty seven years. These dollars are shifted to safe havens of same Western Banks, from where these dollars started journey. Hence it’s a zero sum game for Western economic system. It is for the same reason various crises in third world countries are created for commissions and omissions. Third world countries like Pakistan and Indian ruling establishment and state composes of various political, army, economic, business feudal, bureaucratic, metropolis cartels controlling/manipulating various financial and power hubs in like Bombay, Karachi, Lahore and Delhi (all British era colonial metropolis). Rest all masses (99 %) are non state agent and actors. These masses are typical mouse from Mumbai and Karachi. In the local train compartment which has capacity of 100 persons, these mouse travel with 500 more mouse. Mouse at least squeak but they don't even do that.

Pakistani and Indian ruling establishment have been using wild cards like Al Qaeda, Taliban, Sectarian, Ethnic Violence to their advantage. Whenever CIA or Pakistani or Indian ruling establishment wants to kill people or target someone, they send in an Al Qaeda or Taliban cut-out to start the cycle of violence. Disinformation/disorientation campaigns for local/international establishment agenda has increased exponentially during recent times. Such disinformation/disorientation campaigns are paid, sponsored and engineered by local/international establishment for creating justification for military actions, extreme brute measure and corrupt practices. the Corrupt Mercenary Media (CMM) present themselves as CHAMPIONS OF TRUTH, DEMOCRASY, and JUSTICE. Various writers and anchors pretend asking tough/hard questions and saving world from war, extremism. However media at best are manipulating and comprising the truth by showing half picture of crisis. Most of the time media avoid context and conceal motives of the ongoing crisis and chaos in India, Pakistan and whole Muslim world. Media will never tip-toe out of the false perception minefield that they have allowed themselves to be lured into by the CIA, various ruling establishment and architects of WAR FOR TERROR. TV Anchors most of the times are bounded by policy, life threats, job fears, temptations, easy going attitude, incompetence and lack of quality research on social science. Any TV channel prime motivation is money, revenue, coverage, ads and sponsors not truth.


Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD : Mumbai based group of intellectuals and human rights activists
India Daily-Jun. 13, 2007

The Mumbai based group alleged that Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD. "There is enough evidence that the Al-Qaeda is a front organization of the CIA and MOSSAD. The Bush junta has used the bogey of terror and of Al Qaeda to justify his unending and ever expanding Global War on Terror, which is only a means of capturing the resources of the world and of establishing the sole hegemony of Israel in West Asia," said the group of activists and intellectuals. The group is holding a press conference in Mumbai on Wednesday to "expose the links between Al-Qaeda and the CIA-MOSSAD".
Holding American-Israeli operation accomplices of the 9/11 attack on the WTC, the spokesman of the group said that this has been widely written about in USA and Europe itself and more than 50% of the American people and far more Europeans, now believe and are convinced about this fact. He said that sections of the Indian ruling political and military elite are importing the same Bush-Olmert formula into India. "The increasing terror attacks only serve the cause of the Indian elite and divide the masses along communal lines. It is only the ordinary Indians who are the victims of terror either in temples, mosques, buses or trains," he said adding that practically no political leader suffers a similar fate, where the terrorists are apprehended and killed in "encounters".
"Every terror attack is meant to push and drag the Indian masses further into the waiting arms of Uncle Sam and the Israeli Goliath. Every terror attack spreads further hatred for Muslims and Islam and weakens the Indian Muslim community," he said.

Well guys Salam to you all..
I would say that this is not the time either never was to talk that who is reponsible for all the troubles hapened to Pakistan, nor Punjabi,pakhtoon,mohajir,baloch, sindhi, no one but all those who have forgoten that we are Pakistanis.
It is still not too late, and we should not make a mistake to islolate ourselves.
we all are pakistani and that is our only identity.... and we can change everything if we belive on WE.

khyber #114 Let me start with what you wrote that I agree with: "For everything we cant blame India or USA,lets face there are some ugly hands in our society who will do anything for money."

greed for money or lust for power knows no ethnicity. terrorism knows no ethnicity.

So, try to stick to such facts, and try to forget about panjabi-pakhtoon rubbish. Then we can have a civilized discussion. Otherwise - pama kha day kha.

If you hide your head in sand and think that pukhtoons are responsible for this cancer then you are wrong,I never said that Taliban are punjabis,I was quoting Governor of Pukhtoonkwa.You are just a DUD and thinking by calling names you will achieve something.You are a typical ignorant person with street person menality who lacks sense of discussion and just jumps to his guns.'' Militant leaders and commanders are also coming from Punjab''ok lets say they are pukhtoons then who is training them other pukhtoons in punjab???For everything we cant blame India or USA,lets face there are some ugly hands in our society who will do anything for money.
Mwaqar

Khyber #112 If refusing to let you get away with your lies is bad manners, then indeed I am guilty of that. And dont try to hide your shameless lie that the taliban are panjabis by hiding behind some other man.

As for education, learn to read english - this is what Ghani said in the quote that you yourself provide: " Militant leaders and commanders are also coming from Punjab.". How does this translate into saying that the taliban are panjabis??!!

Of course there are mullah thugs in the panjab too. That is no secret. But the taliban are a pakhtoon outfit. The thugs fighting our brave Pakistani troops to take control of swat and fata are pakhtoons - and no amount of lies and misrepresentations can hide this fact.

Learn to get rid of your ethnic lenses. Learn to be honest. Then come talk to me about manners and education.

tahmed32...first of all...u need education and learn manners how to talk,secondly its not my cliam that Taliban coming from Punjab,it was disclsed by the Governor of Pukhtoonistan that they are coming and being trained in Punjab,let me post that news item again in Dawn.....if you have any education and sense of dialoge and discussion then post your views......
September 23, 2008 Tuesday Ramazan 22, 1429
Suicide bombers coming from Punjab: Owais
By Nasir Jamal
LAHORE, Sept 22: NWFP Governor Owais Ghani warned Punjab on Monday that militancy was gaining strength in its backyard.
“Militants in the tribal areas of the NWFP have established firm networking (with jihadi groups) in southern Punjab and most fresh recruits for suicide attacks are coming from there. Militant leaders and commanders are also coming from Punjab. The militants’ field commander in Swat too is from Punjab,� Mr Ghani told a briefing arranged for senior journalists on insurgency in tribal areas.

The words of caution from the governor came soon after a number of people were detained in Punjab apparently in connection with the Marriott bombing.

Mr Ghani also warned against treating the insurgency in the tribal areas as a problem of the NWFP. “It will be ill-advised to think that the militancy will remain confined to the NWFP. Militants’ activities have already shifted to the settled areas and Punjab and they have established strong links with south Punjab. It’s a national issue, a question of survival for (entire) Pakistan.�Later talking to Dawn, the governor said he had discussed the matter with Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif. He expressed the hope that the Punjab government would effectively handle the situation.

Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani is also said to be aware of the issue of recruitments of suicide bombers from his constituency. “He (prime minister) knows about it,� Mr Ghani said.

He said: “The militants are on the run. But the (military) operation will have to continue for another four to five months before the militancy could be contained.�

He said the issue of militancy could not be resolved without restoration of ‘political peace’ and tranquillity in Afghanistan. “However, we are trying to contain it and lower its intensity.�

In reply to a question, he said there was a political consensus in the NWFP on the counter-insurgency operations. “There is complete harmony between the Governor’s House and the ANP-PPP coalition government. The JUI-Fazl is also supporting the operation,� he said.
NOW IF A IGNORANT GUY LIKE YOU THINKS THAT ITS A LIE THEN LET US KNOW AND FIND OUT WHO IS STUPID WHEN U LOOK AT UR SELF.


Mwaqar

#107 and were you fast asleep when Pakistanis were fighting for democracy - and managed to get rid of a dictator as a result??

#109 You are obviously a deliberate liar when you say that taliban come from the Panjab. Also, you are obviously stupid enough to think that people on chowk are from mars and dont know this.

Taliban imposing fine on women not wearing veil

PESHAWAR: The Taliban have started imposing fines on women who do not wear the veil in the suburbs of the provincial capital and some Mohmand Agency areas, locals said on Saturday. Locals said the Taliban had first warned people about the fines on September 15. The Taliban said they would impose a fine of Rs 10,000 on any woman not wearing a veil and the driver of any public transport vehicle carrying an unveiled woman. A resident of Kas Korrona said he had paid Rs 10,000 to the Taliban for the release of his wife who was held after she violated the ‘veil law’. (DAILY TIMES)
**********************************************************Why this is happening in PUKHTOONKHWA and now there are reports that Karachi will be next target of these fanatics and criminal Taliban,NWFP GOV,says that support for TALIBAN coming from PUNJAB...so who is responsible for that,are school going girls and hard working women are worst then whores of HEERA MUNDI in Lahore????I am not saying that they should be punished for their profession but ignorant mullhas and Taliban dont see that so it means someone in Punjab is responsible for all this mess.
Mwaqar

Channa writes "By definition, to thrive, democracy requires a socially aware class with full bellies and responsible, honest and far-sighted leaders.."

Whose definition? yours or the American definition where aristocracy has been rationalized as "democracy". To think of the cheerful robots with full bellies as a "socially responsible" class is equally ignorant, and to think that these cheerful robots will either lead to institutions that produce "far sighted leaders" is nonsense. Social consciousness is often found more so in those excluded from the middling classes, and they and not the middle class can cause revolutionary change. Not being subject to the rationalizing tendencies of the current status quo has given them a freedom that recognizes that democracy is the best option for them. Channa sahib you need to get a serious education and not repeat the banalities of the US propaganda machine that equates democracy with "middle class".

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

I disagree with the supposition that an overwhelming majority of Pakistani's want democracy. By definition, to thrive, democracy requires a socially aware class with full bellies and responsible, honest and far-sighted leaders. The way it seems today, we have neither
Kamran Channa

Pakistan has the highest number of women representation in South Asia and as a result has made a breakthrough in the gender empowerment indicators. Four important challenges confronted women in Pakistan in the early 1990s: increasing practical literacy, gaining access to employment opportunities at all levels in the economy, promoting change in the perception of women's roles and status, and gaining a public voice both within and outside of the political process. Pakistan's founding father, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, said in a speech in 1944:
No nation can rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you; we are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity that our women are shut up within the four walls of the houses as prisoners. There is no sanction anywhere for the deplorable condition in which our women have to live.’’ Pakistan came into being as a result of a popular movement amongst the Muslims of the Indian sub-continent. Muslim women played a major role in the freedom movement. The founder of the country, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, was responsible for bringing Muslim women out of their homes to participate in the movement for Pakistan. He is on record for saying that the emancipation of Muslim men is not possible unless Muslim women are involved in this struggle as equal partners. When the movement for Pakistan gathered momentum, Muslim women came out on the streets and were active in the demonstrations and agitations that took place for the creation of Pakistan. The Muslim Students Federation, which played an important role in mobilising the student community for the Pakistan Movement, had a large contingent of girl students as its members.

Urban women formed groups to protect their rights against apparent discrimination under Zia's Islamization program. It was in the highly visible realm of law that women were able to articulate their objections to the Islamization program initiated by the government in 1979.The women of Pakistan have come a long way, and have a longer way to go. Struggling for independence within an independent country might have a familiar acoustic tenor for every woman world over who feels her rights remain 'colonised' despite winning territorial freedom. A Pakistani woman feels no different. She feels the transfer of power from British imperialism has shifted to state colonization. For her freedom has yet to come. MORE than a hundred tribal women have taken a stand against creeping fundamentalism in northwest Pakistan by declaring themselves candidates in local elections that Muslim leaders had decreed a male-only preserve. In past elections,, even Imran Khan's Tehrik-e-Insaf was involved in banning women from voting. Yet no party has taken any action against provincial or district leaders for political terrorism against women.
Pakistan is a country where a woman like Fatima Jinnah contested the first ever-Presidential election 40 years ago against a dictator like General Ayub Khan. She lost that election but won in big cities like Karachi and Dhaka despite the rigging.
Pakistan is a country where Benazir Bhutto became the first-ever woman prime minister of a Muslim country years ago despite opposition from army intelligence agencies. Unfortunately women suffered more in Pakistan because of right wing politicians and so called ignorant religious leaders and religious fanatics, last year one fanatic mullah killed one female minister in Punjab province and I was shocked that leaders of Muslim League(Q) reacted like a mosquito was killed not a human being.What the Quaid had achieved was unprecedented, and amounted to a social revolution. The cultural norms of the Muslims of the Indian sub-continent discouraged women from going out of their homes, and at the time it was unthinkable for women to venture out of their homes for political purposes. The constant presence of Fatima Jinnah, the Quaid’s sister, was not accidental, but a message by this visionary leader, that women should be equal partners in politics, and that they should not be confined to the traditional home-bound role of a wife and a mother. It is not surprising then that he was constantly under attack of the orthodox religious parties. Once, so the story goes, he was about to address a mammoth public meeting, and was requested not to have Fatima Jinnah sitting on the dais by his side. He refused.This can be a long discussion but wmoen and millions of pakistanis can have their rights if Pakistanis decide to get rid of relegious fanaticism,destroy elite ,feudal system,defeat bourgeois,Bureaucracy ,Feudal Society,aggressive reforms in education and that all is possible with a REVOLUTION.
Jawaharlal Nehru said long time ago that,''You can tell the condition of a nation by looking at the status of its women.'The persistence of hunger and abject poverty in India and other parts of the world is due in large measure to the subjugation, marginalization and disempowerment of women. Women suffer from hunger and poverty in greater numbers and to a great degree then men. At the same time, it is women who bear the primary responsibility for actions needed to end hunger: education, nutrition, health and family income.

Looking through the lens of hunger and poverty, there are seven major areas of discrimination against women in India:

Malnutrition: India has exceptionally high rates of child malnutrition, because tradition in India requires that women eat last and least throughout their lives, even when pregnant and lactating. Malnourished women give birth to malnourished children, perpetuating the cycle.
Poor Health: Females receive less health care than males. Many women die in childbirth of easily prevented complications. Working conditions and environmental pollution further impairs women's health.
Lack of education: Families are far less likely to educate girls than boys, and far more likely to pull them out of school, either to help out at home or from fear of violence.
Overwork: Women work longer hours and their work is more arduous than men's, yet their work is unrecognized. Men report that "women, like children, eat and do nothing." Technological progress in agriculture has had a negative impact on women.
Unskilled: In women's primary employment sector - agriculture - extension services overlook women.
Mistreatment: In recent years, there has been an alarming rise in atrocities against women in India, in terms of rapes, assaults and dowry-related murders. Fear of violence suppresses the aspirations of all women. Female infanticide and sex-selective abortions are additional forms of violence that reflect the devaluing of females in Indian society.
Powerlessness: While women are guaranteed equality under the constitution, legal protection has little effect in the face of prevailing patriarchal traditions. Women lack power to decide who they will marry, and are often married off as children. Legal loopholes are used to deny women inheritance rightsIndia is one of the few countries where males significantly outnumber females, and this imbalance has increased over time. India’s maternal mortality rates in rural areas are among the world’s highest. From a global perspective, Indian accounts for 19 percent of all lives births and 27 percent of all maternal deaths.The problem in india is when women is pregnant they do test and if its girl they do abortion and I would like to find out what NKG thinks about this?
Mwaqar

Re: # 97
"The role and representation of women in Pakistan’s public life received a boost from Musharraf’s policies, ranging from reversing the wrongs of the Zia era, to promoting one-third representation for women in Pakistan’s electoral system...."

In one hand you wrap up your womenfolk in gunny sacks and then talk about providing electoral reform...Is Paki society prepared for that...I know, Mush must have been inspired by Indian local body rules... But in major part of rural India, women folks are very much liberated...In some cases women vote share is much higher than their male counterpart.....

In these new and on going f'ups of the US, maybe Pakistan can get a new and changed military institution. As #103 states, "Nothing wrong in hoping, is there"- especially for the relatively powerless folk....

Have a nice day

TNI Masadi

Good piece, Ms. Beena. Even though life gets as insane as insane can be in Pakistan, I still feel people have hope that we can pull out of it togather. Nothing wrong in hoping, is there?

Re: # 97
With your ethnically biased rants and instinctive hatred of one of the provinces and complete lack of objectivity when it comes to Mr Nawaz Sharif (I mean the guy is the same as the rest, why single him out) posts, Mr M waqar, I am not sure whether you can your self be called a "liberal"...
I think ultra nationalist would be the right word...

And so the US plan for handing over Pakistan to the Taliban rolls forward after the US sponsored Marriott bombing:

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Pakistan faces 'existential threat': US General Petraeus

AFP


PARIS (AFP) — Extremist forces threaten the very existence of Pakistan, the incoming US commander in the region warned Thursday, as tension mounted between NATO and Pakistani forces on the Afghan frontier.

General David Petraeus, who will take charge of US forces in southwest Asia and the Middle East next month, told reporters that Pakistani and US-led troops would have to work together to defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

"Pakistan faces a threat that certainly seems to be an existential threat," he said, at a press conference at the US embassy in Paris.

Petraeus described the common enemy as a "syndicate" uniting "some true Al-Qaeda, some Taliban and in between different forms of extremist movements, which are very much contributing to the problem in Afghanistan."

The general was speaking shortly after it was confirmed that Pakistani forces had fired warning shots at US military helicopters operating under NATO command near Afghanistan's border with Pakistan.

Islamabad claims to be fighting the armed groups in its unruly borderlands, despite allegations of collusion between its security forces and Islamic militants launching cross border attacks on Afghan and NATO troops.

But Pakistan has also reacted angrily to US airstrikes -- and a reported commando raid -- on its side of the border and the army has vowed to defend its sovereignty, even if that means clashes with US forces.

Petraeus said he had yet to be briefed on the incident in which the helicopters were fired upon, and refused to be drawn on the circumstances in which he would order a cross-border operation.

Instead, he insisted that he would work in cooperation with the Pakistani military, which he said faced the same threat.

"I think the only real answer that I can give you at a forum like this is just to say that there has to be coordination, cooperation and very constructive dialogue as that effort goes forward," he said.

"As was shown tragically and horrifically in the Marriott Hotel bombing, these same extremist elements again represent a true existential threat to Pakistan itself," he said, referring to an attack on Saturday in Islamabad.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hf2azAfsrLUh5wFC093pfcdzf0uA

an interesting viewpoint:

http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/latest_col.php?id=68

#83 Posted by rabiawsti on September 24, 2008 8:03:57 pm
#80 khyber: do you have a link to what brezhnev said, exactly? I tried google but couldn't find it. thank you....
I was reading this book ''GHOST WARS'' by STEVE COLL,where it was mentioned,I dont remember which page number but if I find the page I will let you know,it is a very informative book.I also want to make one correction in my post# 97,I meant to say that Mush did not get any support from selfish politicians for his liberal views.Thanks all...
Mwaqar

#97 Posted by KHYBER on September 25, 2008 5:26:31 am

dude..that wasn't my argument..it was a blast from the past...you see the chowkie bulleya pontificating on this thread...his id used to be romair...he made all sorts of wild predictions and his analysis was laughable by any standards..

For example, in the days after 9/11, he told indians, sri lankans and arabs in the US to wear t-shirts with paki flags if they wanted to be safe..the premise was that americans would be so overwhelmed with gratitude towards pakis(for pakistan having joined the WoT), that wearing a t-shirt with a paki flag would save them from possible reprisals..

#94 Posted by _arjun24....Your argument makes alot of sense and you are right that Musharraf was one good guy in paki Army and West loves him but here what happen to Mush and how he messed up, when he took power from one of the most corrupt so called politician Nawaz,people welcomed him because Nawaz was not only corrupt person but he was also rammnent of zia regime, Musharraf came with great ideas of liberalism and secularism and making Pakistan a country like Turkey,thats what liberals in pakistan wanted to hear after so many years of relegious fanatcis and hypcrites in power like Nawaz and zia. He presided over one of the fastest media revolutions in any third world country. Within five years, Pakistan moved from one stateowned television channel to over 50 private-owned news and entertainment channels. The media revolution gave the urban middle class the confidence to challenge state authority.The role and representation of women in Pakistan’s public life received a boost from Musharraf’s policies, ranging from reversing the wrongs of the Zia era, to promoting one-third representation for women in Pakistan’s electoral system. But here what happens when he shakes hands with corrupt politicians of punjab the ''CHOUDRY BROTHERS '',These selfish politicians including zia son ijazul-haq had close ties with relegious fanatics and they had their own agenda to steal money when in govt,Mush did get any support for his liberal ideas from these narrow minded old fashioned corrupt politicians,But, like his military predecessors, Musharraf’s failure was fundamentally political, He failed to resolve political problems and used a hamhanded approach to such issues as autonomy for Balochistan and an independent judiciary,his luck ran out with the disastrous 2007 sacking of the Chief Justice and the imposition of emergency.My point is that he should not take these politicians of old school,his other mistake was when he took power he did not shoot Nawaz.I think liberal minded politicins and intellectuals in pakistan would love to help him if he was with them.Another thing Pakistan is a country of diversified culture and traditions. It is a nation of one hundred sixty million diverse people ranging from the uneducated and usually more backwards and conservative group to the well-educated, often tolerant and highly progressive thinking citizens. Pakistan is a melting pot of ideas and traditions. It is thus not surprising that when we talk of liberalism within the Pakistani perspective, various and mixed views are associated with it. One strange thing that we\'ve come across in Pakistan is that people do not want to be identified as liberals even if they subscribe to liberaI ideals. We have also found that a large number of people in Pakistan are actually liberals without their knowing that they are for liberalism. To be more exact, many Pakistanis are for democracy, they believe in transparency and progressive movements. Peace and tolerance are most cherished ideas in Pakistan; but still, people advocating for these values do not wish to be identified or called liberals.
Mwaqar

#95 by majumdar

But it is OK to make a mistake as long as you learn from it.

That Majumdar bhai is the problem. Captain Clueless refuses to learn, putting his foot in his mouth at every given opportunity. Worse still, he is so cocksure about his "predictions" that it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic watching a grown up and apparently well traveled man making himself the laughing stock of Chowk. Not for nothing is he known as Captain Clueless.

Arjun mian,

Thanks, maybe you can post the T-shirt post also.

But it is OK to make a mistake as long as you learn from it.

Regards

majumdar dude..just cos I have the rest of the week off, I'll do the needful..

#37 Posted by Romair(aka bulleya aka capt clueless) on March 5, 2002 2:15:36 am


Indians have a very tough task on their hands in defending their indefensible Kashmir position. That is why they always turn on the heat. However, one report from Amnesty International is enough to expose the Ganguly`s of the world.


I feel these guys overdid the religious angles. There were talks of Pakistan turning into Talibanland etc., in a few years or so. I always stated, when push came to shove, the Taliban of Pakistan would crumble. Which is what happened.

I think there will be a shakeup of the thought processes of the Pakistani English speaking intellectuals now. They are begining to realize that there are good people in the Army also. They are begining to realize that Pakistan was never as close to Talibanization as they predicted. And they are starting to understand that maybe they don`t have all the answers either. And they should understand that Pakistan`s solutions should be according to the wishes of the common man, not according to the wishes of the intellectuals.

Now that they don`t have the extreme religious parties and the Army as their punching bags any longer, they will have to take on and discuss the real problems of Pakistan, i.e. feudalism, social lack of cohesion, etc. They will soon have to come to terms with the fact that they cannot run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.


Based on this, what Musharraf has been able to accomplish is incredible. He is now the symbol of Pakistan in the Western media. Just like when the West pictures Iraq, they think Saddam (= bad guy), when it pictures Pakistan, it thinks Musharraf (= good guy). This is now the image of Pakistan in the average American grandmother`s mind, and all the Ganguly`s of the world will not be able change it, provided we play our cards correctly.

majumdar: in the link below, romair = bulleya aka capt clueless

majumdar dude...I know you're just toying with capt clueless here....but in case you're not, read this

http://www.chowk.com/interacts/5254/1/0/a

FM Romair,

As regarding the original Afghan shyte (1979-90) I am pretty sure there was no Indian involvement in military affairs and very marginal even in economic terms- remember India was a broke fourth world nation then.

Since 2001, there certainly has been some involvement of Indians but this is largely benign- building roads, power grids etc (basically infrastructure that your folks destroyed in the first place). There has possibly been some intelligence involvement but this seems to be mainly on the B'stan frontier for needling Pakistan in B'stan, certainly not creating mayhem inside AFGHANISTAN. But Amin sahib can elaborate on the Indians' role there.

Regards

majumdar #: "was not as if India provided military or financial support to the occupiers or otherwise did anything which led to the tragedy...."

...i am not sure if this is accurate.....any country, which is playing a game beyond its own borders in afghanistan is participating in this tragedy.....

....if india is supporting someone, involved in violence in afghanistan, to gain advantage for itself, then it is to be blamed also......

...in the case of the original soviet invasion, if india did nothing but provide moral support to it, then your comments may be considered accurate.....if it went beyond that in supporting any govt. there, then not....

in the current situation, india is, obviously, in support of northern alliance.....while pakistan, traditionally supported taliban.....india has an interest in utilizing afghanistan is surrounding pakistan.......much as pakistan has had in using afghanistan as strategic depth, against india....

...so the blame on india is, significantly, less than that on pakistan......but it is there.....much like there is blame on saudi arabia, also.....

the three biggest outside culprits in afghanistan, in my opinion, are ussr, pakistan, usa (in that order)......

"But to be fair to Hamid mian, he isn't a hypocrite."

i think you are letting hamidm mian off far too easily....urstruly is a hypocrite....but he is not violent...i have never heard him calling for mass violence, against people he disagrees with......

hamidm mian, for a person who is so enamoured with the usa, spends a disproportionately high amount of a time, on a site, which has nothing to do with the usa....and much of that time is spent on pushing the massive violence carried out by the usa......

hypocrisy vs. violence......take your pick......now, if hamidm mian were on rush limbaugh's site, pushing for massive us voilence against pakistan and pakistanis, then i would agree there would be no hypocrisy.....

jesus christ capt clueless..aren't you being a bit revisionist?

do you want me to look up your posts where you

1. supported the war on terrorism right after 9/11 and were ready to join the invasion.
2. told us that with uncle sam's wind in her sails, pakiland was on it's way to economic salvation and could afford to breed the jihadis against india until kashmir fell in her laps..
3. told indians, arabs and sri lankans in the US they needed to wear t-shirts with paki flags to protect themselves from retaliation after 9/11?

seriously? am I the only one who remembers that shit? is everyone else new here?

Field Marshall Romair,

then the blame goes on countries like india also, which fully supported the soviet invasion and massacre.......

You have chosen to blame India for the same reason that mountaineers climb a mountain- "Becuase it is there"

India's support for the "invasion and massacre", while morally repugnant, was a non-issue. It was not as if India provided military or financial support to the occupiers or otherwise did anything which led to the tragedy. India's action or lack thereof in A'stan was of little consequence as let's say Burkina Faso's was.

similarly pakistanis line up to migrate to usa, and those who are there (like hamidm and urstruly etc.) don't want to come back to pakistan

Well, I guess you can't write a post without dissing your fave bugbears!!! But to be fair to Hamid mian, he isn't a hypocrite. He believes that USA is great and his decision is consistent with his ideology. Sadly, the same thing can't be said about Maulana Urstruly- he is a hypocrite and plate p***er.

Regards

Eklavya #: "Pakistani moderates basically accepted and supported and winked at the policy of destroying Afghanistan in order to bring it under Pakistani suzerainty?"

...this is a valid question......and the answer is obvious.....pakistan used afghanistan, much like the usa is using pakistan.....pakistan pushed the taliban upon afghanistan, to establish its strategic depth, with no concern of what they were doing to the afghan society.....i am sure there must be a quite a few afghans who are getting some sort of satisfaction, now that that the shoe is on the other foot......

...having said that, i don't think pakistan is the only country that used afghanistan......first and foremost the blame goes on the ussr......which started this whole thing, and killed around 1 million afghanis and turned another 5-6 million(?) or more into refugees......it destroyed the whole society.....

then the blame goes on countries like india also, which fully supported the soviet invasion and massacre.......interestingly, during that time, pakistan was the biggest supporter of afghans, and took in millions of them as refugess and risked its own people to kick the soviets out.......

.......the blame also goes on the usa, which used the soviet invasion as a revenge for vietnam, and created and funded this whole concept of non-state militant actors.....the blame goes on the usa again, in regard to this afghan war......where it bombed the place and installed the thugs of the northern alliance.....replacing one taliban problem with another......

......the blame also goes on obl, and various other entities........for using afghanistan as their command center......and on local afghan leaders, for the infighting.....

there is plenty of blame to go around...afghanistan has been and is being used by regional and int'l actors to play out their interests.......

pakistan has treated afghanistan much like usa has treated pakistan....it has supported anyone there who is allied with pakistan.....regardless of what they have done to the afghan society.....it wants to fight its battles in afghanistan......much like america wants to fight its battles in pakistan.......

......interestingly the view of afghans towards pakistan is similar to the views of pakistanis towards america.......afghans hate pakistan, much like pakistanis hate usa......however, afghans would love to migrate to pakistan and those who are there, probably, would not want to go back to afghanistan......similarly pakistanis line up to migrate to usa, and those who are there (like hamidm and urstruly etc.) don't want to come back to pakistan.......

i really like ur article thnx thnx thnx

was it, in your opinion, because nobody knew, OR, because Pakistani moderates basically accepted and supported...

Pavo, you are one crazy man. Indian or Pakistani, there aren't many like you.

I have a question only for you (hopefully without offending any other Pakistani friends, who can please ignore the question).

When Pakistan was literally taking kabul city apart almost brick by brick, was there much noise in opposition and horror from Pakistani moderates? Somehow, I feel there wasn't.

If there wasn't such noise, was it, in your opinion, because nobody knew, but because Pakistani moderates basically accepted and supported and winked at the policy of destroying Afghanistan in order to bring it under Pakistani suzerainty?

#80 khyber: do you have a link to what brezhnev said, exactly? I tried google but couldn't find it. thank you

Volume 7 Number 1

www.orbat.com

January 28, 2008

Major A.H. Amin (Pakistan Army, Retired)

Waziristan

Waziristan is the testing ground, the acid test of Pakistan Army's worth in the so- called war against terrorism.
What is the Pakistani intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they don't have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan. They meekly step out of a Qila (fort) and stop some truck drivers and ask what's going on. From what they scramble all the guys from Military Intelligence, the ISI , the Corps Intelligence and the FC Intelligence sit down and make a generally similar report. The guy who compares all reports in GHQ jumps with joy when he sees all these reports and states that all reports can be cross checked and are correct. There is the Sab Accha mentality since Mughal times. Sab Accha means All Correct. So in the final summing it is gleefully concluded that the writ of the Pakistani Government is established in all parts of tribal areas! Glory be to Allah.
I recently met some mid-ranking and major-general level army officers and discussed Waziristan with them. We concluded:
Waziristan is a case of clash of interests among ambitious officers trying to get a good chit (report) and serious regimental officers who see soldiering as a way of life. The fast-track guys want to bash up some villages with artillery fire and do some dog catching for Americans and improve their career index called OEI.
The first major disaster was Lt.-Gen. Safdar, a Punjabi and a careerist. He wanted a fast-track approach for the problem, .His policy was bomb everyone, kill everyone and get the feathers in the cap for being a conqueror. This was counter-productive. The armed forces lost all credibility in this area. Safdar was finally packed off to the post of director logistics in the army Headquarters a post seen as waiting area for dumped generals.
Lieutenant General Hamid Khan, a Pashtun armored corps officer from 11 Cavalry was not effective. During his tenure the army was neither here nor there. He was serving for most of the time when the Waziristan accord had been signed.
The present corps commander Masud Aslam was a Kargil Warrior! (Major Amin is not being complimentary.) He again tried to introduce the Safdar policy with disastrous results.
One Major General level divisional commander stood out. Strangely it was a Shia officer, Major General Mir Haider. Although a Punjabi he understood the Pasthun psyche and did well. His modus operandi was psy war. Healing the tribal eg . Gifting copies of Holy Quran.
Another Major General Sahi was a failure. Again he was using the Safdar approach. Kill , batter , destroy and bomb. Sahi had close links with the Quisling PML (President Musharraf's political party: the writer believes Pakistan has sold out to the Americans) as his brother was a politician from that party. In words of a direct participant officer, he was also a total failure. He was finally packed off as commandant of infantry school. Another resting place of dumped generals. In his dining out he said that he had established writ of Pakistani Government in Waziristan and was corrected there and then by a serving army officer that this was a white lie. He was challenged that he could not drive with his GOC's flag from Miran Shah to Bannu even with an escort! He was infamous in the Frontier Corps Officers for trying to prod them to attack this village or that because he wanted to get a good chit from his bosses.
A serving army officer in that area compared Pakistan Army and the FC in Waziristan to a mouse running from point A to point B while he said that the tribals were the lazy cat watching this despicable mouse.
We further concluded:
The great danger is not Pakistan but the fall-out after its demise.
The great danger to the West is not the hopeless Pakistani state but non-state actors
The more Pakistani Don Quixotes are proved to be spineless clowns in Waziristan, the more dangerous the situation becomes.
Warfare has become cheap. It is easy to rock the boat and non-state actors are good at this.
The front is unclear. The distinction between friend and foe unclear.
My assessment is that if the Americans decide to knock out Pakistan , in strategic terms , there will be no resistance in Punjab and Sindh ,only the Pashtuns will be their adversaries and the settled area Pashtuns will be as hopeless as the Punjabis and Sindhis.
Pakistan's military and political establishment is simply hopeless. This theme is discussed in my article "5 minutes over Islamabad" (the article details how the US forced Pakistan to join it's side in the GWOT.) The Pakistani military junta has already lost all credibility with the Pakistani population and cannot control the situation.
Even the Americans will not achieve much if they enter Waziristan. The terrain is bad and Americans will be a good cause for Jihad. The solution is withdrawal from Waziristan and regime change in Pakistan. The Americans should let the hopeless Paki politicians do the dirty job of all this.
As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following:
The Pakistani High Command a Punjabi-Mohajir (Mohajirs are Pakistans who migrated from India to the new country of Pakistan in/after 1947) team lacks the grey matter or resolve to deal with the tribals.
The troops they are commanding have lost faith in the cause they are fighting for. This is the worst thing for an army.
All said and done the tribals can be dealt politically. Any Pakistani officer who is posted as commander 11 Corps is a job seeker. He is trying to be a Napoleon and a Punjabi cannot be a Napoleon with a tribal!
The present Governor of NWFP Owais Ghani has already miserably failed in Baluchistan. He is regarded as a non-Pashtun as he is the hated Hindko Punjabi (we dont know what Hindko means; Hind generally refers to India) speaking from Peshawar city just like General Kakar, whose first cousin he is.
The whole situation requires a change in command in Pakistan from top to bottom.

what the CIA,ISI,SAUDI INTELLIGENCE and British Intelligence hirelings did to Kabul and Afghanistan.....compare that with what is happening to Pakistan is not 1 % of that .....Dr Najib , a great visionary,and there are audio cassettes of these talks available warned pakistan and USA ....dont do this .....you are destroying the peace of this region for all times to come....the Pashtuns are the most progressive and most conservative people.....they brought the only successful Marxist leftist coup in Muslim world and now as talibs they are playing hell with the americans/brits and punjabis.....now why this transformation.....the punjabis were trying to use pashtuns as cannon fodder.......its all going to go totally out of control.....a state based on injustice cannot last....go see the cripples and orphans you made in afghanistan......

Well I am back after work and it seems like its getting interesting here.#79 Posted by pavocavalry... here is the problem,unfortunately Pakistan under Zia started interfering in Afghanistan when Red Army was there,What goes around comes around and truely thats what happening in Pakistan now,Zia encouraged narrow minded,conservative right wing hard liners religious fanatics,in Pakistan liberals were always discouraged and that is a conspiracy of bourgeois ,elite and imperialist's slaves of pakistan.Let me mention one more thing that in 80's one communist leader of soviet union comrade Leonid Il'iÄ? Brežnev warned CIA AND ISI that today you are using these religious fanatics aginst us and tommarow they will hurt you in your own yard and that is proved as we see what happened incidents like 9/11 and recent attacks in Pakistan,another problem in pakistan is that religion and politics were forced to work together and that is failed.Pakistani politicians are selfish and not reliable,Politicians like QAZI HUSSAIN,whose son is getting higher education in States but Qazi preach and tells kids of poor to join jihad.
Mwaqar

a very superficial,simplistic and shallow view of things.

the pakistani state in the past actively sponsored terrorism and attacks on civilians.students cafes were attacked in kabul.residential apartments were rocketed.the tribal areas are being bombed indiscriminately.

but when the punjabi heartland is struck then its very very bad.

a case of absolute dual standards

Khyber #68 {"I support Islam of MOHAMMAD(PBUH)NOT the islam of saudi arabia or zia,I do supprot Z A BHUTTO,who broguht political sense to comman man on street,who brought 90000 those soldeirswho surrendered to India,who made Pak nuclear power,who was interested to educate people.What Zia and cronies did to Pakistan,result you can see.
Mwaqar "}

Waqar Bhai,
Very good poins - may the bad rooh of Zia never cast its shadow over Pakistan again.

Karachi, 24 Sept. (AKI) - By Syed Saleem Shahzad - The alleged mastermind of last Saturday's deadly truck bombing of the Marriott hotel in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, has emerged.

The suspect, Qari Zafar (photo), has become part of Al-Qaeda's hardline Takfiri inner circle. He enjoys the protection of Pakistani Taliban commander Baitullah Mehsud and is believed to be hiding out in the lawless South Waziristan tribal area of North West Frontier Province.

Zafar is not only the suspected mastermind of the Marriot bomb blast, but has created a network which will shortly target strategic installations belonging to Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency, military headquarters in Karachi and police stations across the country, according to security officials.

"Zafar is behind the planning, arrangement of transportation and procurement of explosives for the attack against the Marriott Hotel on 20 September,� a top security source told Adnkronos International on Thursday on condition of anonymity.

"Some of his men have been arrested in Punjab which further confirms his involvement in the whole scheme,� the official added.

The connection to Zafar was established from phone numbers found on the mobiles of some of those arrested in Punjab.

According to security agencies, the chances of arresting Zafar are slim as he rarely moves from his alleged hideout in South Waziristan to visit the various cities of North West Frontier Province.

To most Pakistanis he is an obscure figure, and is considered by security agencies to be a ghostlike figure whose trail went cold after he managed to escape from custody last year.

But he is known to international intelligence services which credit him with fox-like cunning and great bravery when organising and carrying out attacks against identified targets.

Originally from Karachi, Zafar was previously named as the leader of the banned militant Laskhar-i-Jhangvi group.

In 2007, he escaped from the custody of security services in the Punjabi capital, Lahore.

The United States government has put a 5 million dollar bounty on Zafar, according to the Rewards for Justice website.

Zafar is wanted for questioning in connection with the 2 March, 2006 bombing of the US Consulate in Karachi.

The attack killed three Pakistani citizens and US diplomat David Foy. Zafar is suspected of being a key figure involved with this attack

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.2509917874

1977-79. Two events take place. Iranian revolution and Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

EFFECT: A mock jihad supported by Brezinski's Christianity in favour of Muslims. A covert Sunni jihad against Shias supported by USA, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Creation of Kuwait fund for Balochistan. In parallel, advent of Sipa E Sihaba that kills Shias, fans insurgency of Sunni dissidents in Iran. Later splits into Jhangvi, Jaish and so many other loose groups.

1997-98. US bombing of Afghanistan, Pakistani militant camps hit. The sectarians join hands with Taliban and al Qaeeda.Some caught in Kashmir. taken prisoners, compromised, exchanged. Omar Sheikh (British intelligence pawn) mysteriously forgets his diary in Indian Jail.
9/11. These sectarians react by killing christians and attacking churches. Omar and Khalid sheikh kill Daniel Pearl. According to BB, Omar also kills OBL.They attempt at Musharraf. FIA building. US consulate. Sheraton and .....

NOW. The most dangerous suicide bombers emerging from a sectarian group merge into the general strain of Taliban.

Taliban become Cicero the poet and get killed for bad verses.

#41 Posted by usamamunir on

Ghabra mat yaar, Indians ke pass abhi time nahin hai, aur Indians ko jaroorat bhi mehshoosh nahin hoti Pakistan ka kutch bigaadne ki...
jab tak unke pass time hoga (ya jaroorat mehshoosh hogi) tab tak Pakistan apne aap hi apni aisi-ki-tesi kar chuka hoga.... Khuda ke bande hain bhai, sab khuda ke liye kar rahe hain,,, kya-kya kar rahe hain bas ye kisi ko idea nahin.. (sabhi kutch karte hain, drug trafficking, terrorism, deceit, lie aur kya bacha hai khuda ke liye:-))

Re: # 59

Mr Khyber

People u talk about are ideologically driven, for them ethnicities dont matter much. I agree with you that they have spread into Punjab but do you know their largest mosque or training center is in Karachi (Binori) which has produced some of their finest.

If you wish to counter this plague then u have to hit them where it hurts and that is their ideological and financial support center, Saudi Arabia. Hit does not imply physical hit but a public acknowledgement where the problem originates, pressure from the foreign office and executive level would stem the financial aid and passing of laws that restricts and formalizes funding based on religious content.

Finally, some honest introspection and acknowledgement is required.

hamidm

well, those problems will always be there - I mean, do you think suicide bombing will ever go away in land full of pure muslims?... same goes for 'atta shortage' as well - since every able-bodied momin worth his pajama is after his count of 72 virgins, who the heck is tilling the khet and growing the wheat?...

How long are the kashmiris going to wait?... 60 years is down the drain already...

khyber: " for the last 60 years pakistani elite and bourgeious class did not encourage education aggressively in pakistan and tribal areas,"

on the contrary, privately funded schools for the very poor are thriving in Pakistan. I know because I have been contributing to these efforts for over 30 years now. It is the taliban "elite" that, far from contributing to education, burns down schools! (at least one of the many schools burnt in Swat by the taliban was funded by almost exclusively expatriate Pakistanis in the US.

So - easy to rant about "panjabi elites" and what not. Hard to look at the facts.

Re: # 69

mohar mian,

... at present we have bigger problems than kashmir - load shedding, atta shortage, suicide bombings, the restoration of the droopy eyed cj ..... kashmir can wait

Re: # 68
Mr M waqar thank you for your post..really your previous posts have left little to read between the lines....this phrase is only used when point of view is explained in a subtle and some what hidden way...just go through the posts...are you subtle?
Any how your this post has thankfully broadened to include all elite of Pakistan rather than just narrowing it down to Punjab.

hamidm

50 years is a long time - I doubt pakiland will survive that long... So time to get the kashmir is now...

onward, bedouin soldier, go fight the evil hanoods and rescue kashmir... ha ha...

#65 Posted by Skeptical....Read between the lines,I have many Punjabi friends and I was not pointing Punjabi people,writing is on the wall,I been saying this for a long time that Paki Army should punish these homegrown so called ignorant fanatic barbarian stone age mentality Taliban,if you don't do it then others will do it and if you still refuse to get rid of these fanatics then trust me foreign troops will be marching on Pakitani streets,truth is always bitter but lets admit that for the last 60 years pakistani elite and bourgeious class did not encourage education aggressively in pakistan and tribal areas,pakistani elite made whole nation fool for the last 60 or more years,pakistan is a country where people even dont have clean drinking water not mentioning so many other problems,I support Islam of MOHAMMAD(PBUH)NOT the islam of saudi arabia or zia,I do supprot Z A BHUTTO,who broguht political sense to comman man on street,who brought 90000 those soldeirswho surrendered to India,who made Pak nuclear power,who was interested to educate people.What Zia and cronies did to Pakistan,result you can see.
Mwaqar

Re: # 66
Well you have a right to "agree" or express your appreciation of Mr. M Waqar....my point is to merely bring out the biasness in his posts to counter your assertion that he is informative and "eye opening"...
Regarding his "evidence"...well frankly we do not know the authencity of that...
Regarding Beena, she is very good and unlike another famous chowk writer, Mr Nadeem Farooq Paracha, a well balanced liberal person. My only objection is that she only responds to interacts which by and large support her view point

Re: # 65 Skeptical,
Everyone has the right to disagree with the content. But Mwaqar's post are teeming with information and arguments are always presented with supporting material. Not empty rants like many are prone to to. I appreciate you supported your notion by referring to 42 to 59, but as I said everyone has right to disagree with the content.
Personally, I want to have broad perspective and information from all sides before I can form my opinion. Therefore writers like Mwaqar and Beena (and some others) are invaluable resource. In brief, I look for positives, unless negative is so big that it totally overshadows the positive. Basically, by my own account, I am an apolitical person.

Re: # 62
Oh really, are Mr, Mwaqars posts informative or just ethnic biases being rationalized through usage of marxist terminology....and one sided apparently pro PPP views.Think again...see posts 42 and 59......biased and completely motivated by defaming PPP's opponents by calling them elitist and worse reeking of provincialism .
And Beena you only seem to answer the interacts which support you...Its always a thank you thing...

Re: # 61

beena,

..... the plan to 'bleed india' was poorly managed and executed which has resulted in the 'blowback' effect, but that does not mean that pakistan should walk away from its position on kashmir after 60 years ....... it is a legitimate territorial dispute between two sovereign countries and has to be settled ...... of course, diplomacy would be the preferred path but if that doesn't work then the military option has to be kept on the table .... pakistan might not be able to exercise it today but things can change in fifty years .... it would be immoral and criminal to walk away from the kashmiri people after keeping them dangling for so many years ....

.... but right now the trouble is fata and islamic fundamantalism is the bigger problem - kashmir can stay on the back burner

Re: # 61 beenasarwar
Beens Sarwar, keep bringing us your constructive and sensible articles !!! I did had a question about your comment "A military-only option is clearly not the answer: there must be a political roadmap."
What can be the political roadmap in an atmosphere of extreme violence and distrust? When previous government tried to make any deals with some groups it lead to nowhere - Pakistan was blamed for being soft by US and probably catalyzed Musharraf's ouster - and bigots kept killing any elders which were sympathetic to Pakistan Government. What can be the political roadmap in such dire conditions?

Re: # 59 KHYBER
Mwaqar, your posts are informative and eye-opening articles on their own right with refreshing perceptivity and distinctive viewpoint. I checked your blog too and they are outstanding. You might want to consider sending article on current situation for FP publishing.
At least you may want to add link to your blogs as part of your signature on these posts.

Re: # 59
Mwaqar, thanks for the additional information. You correctly point out a lot of the factors behind the current situation, including the 'separate electorate'. However, one of the few things to Musharraf's credit is the restoration of the joint electorate. Hopefully, if the democratic process continues, many of the problems will sort themselves out.

Re: #60 _arjun24 - All I can say is that many of 'us pakis' are critical of our government policies and have long opposed the 'the plan to bleed india'. Neither do we want Kashmir falling in our lap - and I don't think many Ksshmiris want that either.

roses are red
violets are blue
the jihadis you created
are killing a whole bunch of you


that's the only way pakis will learn...

how's the plan to bleed india and have kashmir fall in your lap going for you?

Beena,Thanks for your elicitation and I agree with you that we should not make this Punjabi vs others ,its not the punjabi people who are facing same problems of discrimination as others like pathns,sindihs and balcuh,its the elite class of of punjabi bougeious like Nawaz and others who are involve in crimes against humanity.
A saying goes, "Humanity suffers a lot not because of the wickedness of bad people but because of the silence of good people. Pukhtoonkhwa Gov just warned Punjab that
that militancy was gaining strength in its backyard. Intelligence sources estimate that around 2000 people from southern and northern Punjab province moved to South Waziristan since March 2005.Inspector General of Police in Punjab province Shaukat Javed stated that Um-e-Hasan, the wife of the Red Mosque cleric Maulana Abdul Aziz, is training girls enrolled at her Jamia Hafsa madrassa in Islamabad to be suicide bombers.
In the Punjab province, the government is also aware of the threats originating from the madrassas. It reviewed the role of the individual madrassas and their connections with the Taliban this year. In July 2008, it declared 80 madrassas in the province to be dangerous, and has now ordered regular monitoring of extremist activities in them. The 80 madrassas identified by the province government as having the potential to challenge the government's authority like the Islamabad Jamia Hafsa and Red Mosque madrassas are located in the districts of the province as follows: 12 in Lahore, one in Sheikhupura, one in Gujranwala, two in Sialkot, 14 in Rawalpindi (twin city of Islamabad), seven in Attock, one in Chakwal, four in Faisalabad, four in Jhang, one in Toba Tek Singh, three in Multan, three in Sahiwal, one in Vehari, [seven] in Khanewal, one in Lodhran, six in Bahawalpur, eight in Rahimyar Khan, and four in Bahawal Nagar. Now we know who is burning our pukhtoon girls schools in SWAT and other pukhtoon areas. In the 1980s, two intersecting developments in Pakistan resulted in the proliferation and expansion of jihadi Islam and groups seeking to impose narrowly defined Islamic government by force. The first was the US-Saudi-Pakistani effort to transform the Afghan resistance into a jihad against the Soviet Union; the second was the Pakistani state's use of Islam to maintain its legitimacy.Under Zia, Christians, Hindus, Ahmadiyyas, Parsees and other religious minorities were excluded from holding high office in government. Christians and Hindus were further marginalized by the imposition of separate electorates: they can only vote for candidates from their own religious communities, and cannot vote for Muslim candidates. Sectarian Muslim groups have invoked Zia's anti-blasphemy law to harass Christians, and the law has also been exploited to gain unfair advantage over Christians in personal rivalries and land disputes. To date, there has only been one case where the anti-blasphemy law was used against a Muslim. Its so obvious that Punjabi mullahs, Punjabi politicians and Punjabi elite are responsible for all this chaos. These ignorant fanatic Taliban attack pathan politicians,closing music centers in pakhtoonkhawa,closing our girls schools in our region but why no one says anything about the HEERA MUNDI of Lahore ,thses ignorant mullahs don’t see heera mundi but they see girls going to schools. it’s a shame that in Peshawar people in mosques are spreading hate and asking our young people to join so called fanatics jihad, mullahs know how to spread hate,when mullahs were living on charity and left over bread of others there brains were straight but when cruel dictator Zia put money in their pockets they started killing people.
Mwaqar

Harish #57 I am sure you mean what you say, and I know there are many, many Indians who think the same way. But..you will I hope acknowledge that I am not wrong in saying there are many Indians who have not reconciled to the idea of Pakistan as a separate nation.

btw, do you really think I generalize about Indians? I have probably done this a few times, and I am sorry for that. I do try most of the time to be careful in making sure what I say does not malign an entire community or country.

#53 by tahmed32

At least the Indians are consistent in their hatred for Pakistan.

Whoa!! Amongst Pakis when it comes to generalizations, you tahmed32 sahib are the king. Rest assured that had it not been for terrorists sneaking into India be it in Kashmir or Punjab or even as far as Hyderabad and Bangalore (mind you, with active support from your country) to kill and maim us, we would have absolutely no reason to hate Pakistan.

to complete #55: and, regardless of what you were taught, being old is not a crime. just as being a panjabi is not a crime.

#54 Bhaati gate dwellers are better than treacherous and cowardly color-changers like you. Rest assured.

As for the rest of your post, I wont lower myself to your level by calling you names as well. If you cant deal with the facts, that is your problem.

Re: # 53

Deluded old man, it is you and only you spewing Punjoo style vitriol. As for the breakup of Pakistan, if quoting the facts and admitting our failures is a crime then I like Pavo and many others are guilty as charged. As for the Indians, well they are a much better bunch compared to your likes.

Pakistan is a federation of different ethnicities, you have to be really dumb and stupid not to know that fact. Or, simply an arrogant, elitist bigot.

If you wish to pursue this kind of ridiculous debate, then I suggest u go back to your Bhaati gate, thats where u belong.

#52 So, when your routine mqm-style vitriol about "ethnicities" and your joining with Pakistan-deniers from India in harping about the "breakup of Pakistan" is challenged, you change your color now to "green" and pose as a patriotic Pakistani!! At least the Indians are consistent in their hatred for Pakistan. You on the other hand are a traitor to the country you were raised in, promoting divisions among its people on the basis of ethnicity.

And it is you who has, without provocation, chosen to differentiate between "mohajirs" and "the rest of Pakistan" in your posts. So dont pretend that I have no right to hold you to your own claims, and spell out the historical fact that your parents came running from India to Pakistan to pick up property and jobs left behind by the fleeing hindus.

Re: # 37

tahmed32 & Chowk administrators

In the past you have stated very clearly that you do not wish to respond to my posts and I have respected that decision by not addressing you directly or indirectly. You on the other hand continue to pick and choose to attack even though the referred post was not addressed to you. So, make up your stupid mind what u want, this waffling between yes and no does not cut it.

Since you do not know my parents their mention in your post shows your ingrained prejuidices and shows your true shallow, bigoted personality for what its worth.

Disagreemenst are but natural and people can be agitated but there is a decorum that is maintained unless you were born a b@stard thus have no qualms in denigrating this honorable relationship called parents.

Lastly, unlike bhagoras such as you, i continue to hold the green passport (only one) with ALL of my assets tied to that country including North and South of Pakistan. So spare me your hypocrisy and learn some manners.

Re: # 42
Khyber, thanks for bringing up this point. The governor's point is echoed in the comment of a retired brigader I quoted in a piece for IPS the previous day:

[snip] The Marriott strike bears all the signatures of a ‘home-grown insurgency’, and was carried out "by the same people who attacked the FIA (Federal Investigation Agency) building in Lahore last year and killed Benazir", a retired army brigadier and defence analyst told IPS, asking not to be named. "The tribal agency people don’t have this kind of expertise, unless they have received outside help."

If this is the case, then clearly a convergence has taken place, or is taking place, between these different forces [end snip]

Full story at http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43963
For those who can't access it - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beena-issues/message/995

Let's not, however, make it into an 'ethnic' issue as some people on this forum are doing - that will only serve to divide and weaken the fight against such violence.

Re: # 46
Thanks Ras. I actually made this point in the revised article I sent to Volkskrant the following day (the piece was published on Sept 23). This is the revised intro:

"Days after a suicide attacker rammed a truck laden with over 600 kg of high quality explosives into the high-security Marriott Hotel in Pakistan’s capital Islamabad many are still reeling with shock. It’s not that Pakistan is any stranger to bombings. Since the first suicide attack took place in 2002, the number of such attacks, and their casualties, has only risen.

"The first six months of this year alone have witnessed over sixty bomb blasts, about half of them suicide attacks. The year 2007 saw over fifty bomb blasts that took the heaviest toll of lives ever, including the over 150 who died after bomb blasts targeting the late former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto’s welcome procession of October 18 2007. The year ended with the attack that claimed some thirty lives and killed Bhutto herself as she exited an election rally on December 27.

"But it is the Marriott attack of September 20, 2008, striking as it did this heavily guarded building in the heart of Pakistan’s capital that is being termed “Pakistan’s 9/11�. "

Re: # 34
Mohar...
Pakistan has less regional problems than India. So, Pakistan will be there as trouble maker, unless and until civilised world do something....

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Re: # 41

Don't cry, sweatheart!

Beena,

Pakistan's 9/11 was on December 27, 2007.

One can only speculate that this was a follow up.

laddu and Khyber have point. This may turn into Pujabi vs Sindhi and what not. I have nagging suspicion that in the end, AZ may prove to be Garbachov of Pak-stan culminating the disintegrative process inadvetantly started by ZH

My information is correct and comes from a highly placed source...

Re: # 42

I have repeated earlier.....punjabi mullahs are creating this mayhem ...all in connivance and implicit arrangements with Nawaz Sharif.........this NS - BB battle has now turned dirtier into NS-AZ battle........

Suicide bombers coming from Punjab: Owais

LETS NOT FORGET THAT PUNJABI POLITICIANS LIKE NAWAZ SHARIF HAD CLOSE CONTACTS WITH OSAMA WHO PAID HIM MILLIONS .



LAHORE, Sept 22: NWFP Governor Owais Ghani warned Punjab on Monday that militancy was gaining strength in its backyard.

“Militants in the tribal areas of the NWFP have established firm networking (with jihadi groups) in southern Punjab and most fresh recruits for suicide attacks are coming from there. Militant leaders and commanders are also coming from Punjab. The militants’ field commander in Swat too is from Punjab,� Mr Ghani told a briefing arranged for senior journalists on insurgency in tribal areas.

The words of caution from the governor came soon after a number of people were detained in Punjab apparently in connection with the Marriott bombing.

Mr Ghani also warned against treating the insurgency in the tribal areas as a problem of the NWFP. “It will be ill-advised to think that the militancy will remain confined to the NWFP. Militants’ activities have already shifted to the settled areas and Punjab and they have established strong links with south Punjab. It’s a national issue, a question of survival for (entire) Pakistan.�Later talking to Dawn, the governor said he had discussed the matter with Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif. He expressed the hope that the Punjab government would effectively handle the situation.

Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani is also said to be aware of the issue of recruitments of suicide bombers from his constituency. “He (prime minister) knows about it,� Mr Ghani said.

He said: “The militants are on the run. But the (military) operation will have to continue for another four to five months before the militancy could be contained.�

He said the issue of militancy could not be resolved without restoration of ‘political peace’ and tranquillity in Afghanistan. “However, we are trying to contain it and lower its intensity.�

In reply to a question, he said there was a political consensus in the NWFP on the counter-insurgency operations. “There is complete harmony between the Governor’s House and the ANP-PPP coalition government. The JUI-Fazl is also supporting the operation,� he said.
Mwaqar

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salim
[... Pakistan are still here....]

I am sure you would have said the same thing in '71, as hanood army was humping over your behinds... :)

Anyhoo - It's not about "a terrorist incident" - it's aboout the overall situation in pakiland... these terrorist incidents in pakiland are not the run-of-the-mill ones that happen elsewhere - these are indicator of serious dysfunction in various stake holders in the state: army, civilian govt, civil society - all entities are in conflict with each other... none of these entities ahve any confidence in any other entity...

"President Zardari and his PM" have minimal credibility and are not people of calibre, they simply don't have waht it takes to overcome these serious problems... unwashed abdul is barely making a living, has no strength or willingness to stand up to the challenge... Army is as usual up to no good - they are busy playing their dirty games...

You may hate Bush, but without his billions pouring in - you pakis would be folding up sooner...

This is not business as usual...

Let's not get melodramatic over a terrorist incident - albeit a deadly one with terrible and tragic loss of life. The blast in Karachi was more devastating than the Marriott bombing - both Karachi and Pakistan are still here.

What we need to do is to focus on the future. Banging one's head against a brick wall over and over and over is sometimes not the right answer. Sometimes, jumping over the wall, digging underneath it, or simply going around it is better.

Mushy is long gone and so should his self-conflicting policies. Let's give President Zardari and his PM some time to put their strategy together. A comprehensive, non-violent and political solution is needed for FATA. Bush (soon to be followed by Karzai) is a lame duck and pretty soon will become Peking Duck if the oven of Wall Street continues to sizzle.

and Pakistan, with the Grace of God, and despite the ill-wishes of the mqm followers on this board, will survive its current crisis and prosper.

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Re: # 34

mohar11

A country that cannot provide security or basic amenities to it people after 60 odd years can and should be assessed as a failed enterprise. Now that failed enterprise may need a new vision or management or its more valuable in smaller pieces. Whatever happens, it will have ripple effects in the entire region and has to be handled with extreme care and the Paki establishment is playing that card.

Re: # 33

Somalia is not a good example because the country Pakistan is a federation of different ethnicities. Chances of the country being split into North and South are higher than a complete meltdown, then again this conjecture and it may remain the same for the forseeable future.

rf786
[...Maybe that is the solution...]

I agree - pakistan as a state does not make any sense any more... seems like it exists only to be used as a plaything by its military... and worse still - military these days is in cross purposes with the population - so any semblance of a functioning state has been steadily eroded...

Re: # 32 no need to bring examples from around the world - remaining Pak-stan (amputated half in 71) is already half dead again. If this is living then what is dying?
At best it is a failed state like Somalia.
In its zombie state it will half-live until Uncle Sam will keep it resuscitated as they deem it fit.
By now Pak-stan is nothing other than Pak-Military. That is why there so much militancy. Like Israel, that is the only other country created based on religion and both are source of misery for their own people as well as for the area.

Re: # 16

Dear Thinkingstorm,

"Pakistan is. And will be."

Nice thoughts but recent history would suggest otherwise, take Yugoslavia for example, today the country is divided into three parts. Maybe that is the solution.

The Iranian Parliament voted in favor of a bill Tuesday that would punish apostasy with the death penalty, a human rights group reported. Lawmakers approved the bill with 196 votes in favor, seven against.

"just muslims and pakis struggling to build a new nation."
deir aye pur durust aye...this is a much clearer vision than jinas stuff of august 11.

now once who the just muslims and paak muslims are is defined implementation should be fast and successful.

Paki munafiqoons are now on the line of fire..

my favourite murtid hamidm wanted Pakis to push jehadis into india....that is what they started doing ......but now the jehadis have grown fatter by his support and are now going to kill those very munafiqoons who have fed them with the hatred for indians.......

now hamidm.........hope your daughters were not in that hotel!!

Hamidm, the only person we can say for sure who cannot be complicit in this deadly act of terrorism is Benazir. or can we? hmmmm..

Re: # 24

ijaz,

... are you saying that zardari is behind this blast ? ..... that rascal !

fiazyeen islam?
what a joke.
indeed the paki enlightened munafiqoons were the targets as i predicted....
come on fidayeens, wipe off these gora munafiqoonz.

read this.
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12267391&am p;am p;fsrc=nwlgafree

Khyber,
I tend to agree. This blast is home grown unless the investigation like that of BB is deliberately misled.
This appears to be the same group as Sheraton, US Consulate, bids on Musharraf, FIA building, Naval war College and assasination of BB.
If you add who benefitted from BB's death? a new working theory comes into existence.
By the way, the only surviving gaurd who also took part in the rescue died the next day of a mysterious accident.

A group calling itself Fedayeen Islam (Partisans of Islam) last night said it carried out the bombing on Saturday which killed at least 53 people, and demanded that Pakistan end its alliance with the US,the sophistication and reach of extremist groups is the result of the army's past patronage of jihadists to fight proxy wars in Afghanistan and India. It is these groups, rather than the Pakistani Taliban in the north-west fringe, that may be most deeply linked to al-Qaida's agenda of global jihad. Groups such as Harkatul Jehadul Islami, led by Qari Saifullah, and Lashkar-e-Taiba appear to have gone rogue, having been nurtured by the ISI intelligence agency for years. There are fears that sympathisers in the ISI and army continue to help such groups, possibly providing the military explosives used in the Marriott blast.Osama bin Laden's involvement with Pakistani militant organisations was very well established even before 9/11 and I am sure NAWAZ SHARIF knows that too as he took alot of money from Osama.These ignorant barbarian Taliban must be crushed and hang their dead bodies in center of every city so these ignorant religious fanatics can learn how it feels when innocent people die,Taliban and ignorant religious fanatics are real threat in Pakistan: not imminent “Islamic revolution�, state failure or loss of control of nuclear weapons, but a spread of terror, with sooner or later – as in Algeria and elsewhere – the State in desperation resorting to counter-terror in response. The State will survive but the bloodshed could dwarf anything seen since the loss of East Pakistan. Lets not blame INDIA,ISRAEL and Afghan for every terror attack in Pakistan,its like hidding you head in sands.The problem is The civilian govt in Pakistan is toothless. Real power lies with the Army Chief and ISI.Pak army gears up for its battle with Taliban/Al Qaeda in the frontier areas, allow real democracy to flourish there.
Lets pay our tribute to the un named security guard who after receiving the warning from the suicide bomber that the truck was about to explode, refused to leave his post and tried to put out the fire. He may have prevented the explosion. An act of valour which deserves the hisghest award.No one can live in denial of facts and the truth apparently hurts. Pakistanis has to wake up to what is happening around them otherwise the security of that country will slip into mayhem.The common man is a soft target of the militants and the government has no resources or no plans to manage a disaster of this magnitude.
Mwaqar

Re: # 12

Pak gov is no longer in charge. I would like pavocavalry's thoughts if Pak is already in an end game scenario.

Thanks

giani

Pakistan has it got all wrong. These are genuine heroes and freedom-fighters who are waging a brave struggle for their liberty, self-determination and independence from opression by kafirs. The only way to address the violence is to listen to their genuine grievances, provide assistance for economic development, education and provide the freedom for them to tell everyone else what to do.

Wasn't this the prescription Pakistan proferred to India and the US all along? Can't take their own medicine hey?

By the way for the benefit of the cerebrally disadvantaged, the first para of my post is sarcastic

Why Rehman Malik need to lie???

==========================
Rehman Malik, the chief of Pakistan's interior ministry, said a dinner hosted by the speaker of the parliament for the government and military top brass had been planned at the Marriott on Saturday, but security fears led to a change. "At the eleventh hour the dinner was shifted to the prime minster's house, which saved Pakistan's entire military and political leadership," Malik said.

Malik's revelation was disputed by the management of the hotel, which said no such booking had been made. Whatever the truth, the bombing appeared to signal a new phase in the militants' war against the state, with the country feeling as if it is sliding towards chaos. "Pakistan is teetering on the brink," said Farzana Shaikh, associate research fellow at Chatham House. "There is a weak and deeply divided government and a disorientated army with no clear strategy."

thinkingstorm #18 {"There's no messiah solution for this. No leader can move us out of this....this is a slow and steady march towards progress, and a new Pakistan.

It starts from hearts and minds, in conversations, over blogosphere, at schools colleges..."}


TS Pi,
What an uplifting and encouraging series of inspirational ideas.

Just like '47 - no punju, no mojo, no sindhi, no pathan, no baluchi, no bihari, no shia, no sunni, no ahmedi, no agha khani - just muslims and pakis struggling to build a new nation. Pakistan Zindabad.

Re: # 17

Adversity and Change. In times of adverse change, people can panic and run around like headless chickens OR they can recollect and reflect how they got here, and how to get out.

There's no messiah solution for this. No leader can move us out of this....this is a slow and steady march towards progress, and a new Pakistan.

It starts from hearts and minds, in conversations, over blogosphere, at schools colleges...

it is a renewed sense of purpose and hope...

it is a belief that we will remember the past and learn from it, but not remain a victim to it, nor nostalgic.

It is the knowledge that the future is built from the rubble of today. One brick at a time.

We must each take a step forward knowing that within each of us, there is the potential to shape the nation.

So we should remain calm, and start to figure out what each of us can do to move the country forward.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Thinkingstorm #16 {"THIRD, Pakistan is here to stay. It's not going anywhere"}

TS Pi,
Very well said. From adversity comes rejuvenation - Japan, Germany, Hajiboola, Iran, Pakistan after '71 defeat (1972 - 1977), Islam after Crusades, Turkey after defeat of WW I.

Beena et al,

First, please calm down.

Ijaz bhai, your post is very humane, and I too remember most of the sights and sounds you talked about...and you put the human faces to the tragedy. All those poor people working there...

Second, there is no us vs. them.

We need to include the fundoos in the conversation and not exclude them. So there is no us vs them.

THIRD, Pakistan is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. There are setbacks...but we need to re-evaluate who we let govern and how. The fundoos cannot do this without...funds. The funds and training are no doubt from military institutions.

If Japan can survive two nuclear bombs, we can certainly survive a truck bomb.

There are miscreants that are saying "Islam khatray main hay" "Pakistan is unraveling".

Baloney.

Pakistan is. And will be.

But it is time for us, the awam, to shoulder the responsibility for deciding our own futures. Thus far, we have an uber corrupt guy as president, an ISI chief as the COAS, and uber corrupt politicians are the opposition.

Collectively, there is no-one to blame, but ourselves.




with much respect,
thinking storm

"A military-only option is clearly not the answer: there must be a political roadmap."
What can be the political roadmap in an atmosphere of extreme violence and distrust. Last time when they tried to make any deals with some groups under Musharraf it lead to nowhere - Pakistan was blamed for being soft - and bigots kept killing any elders which were sympathetic to Pakistan Government. Hell, there is no solution ...
What are the deeper designs? Is there any party which will stand for the real interests of Pakistani people? Is there any viable program with any of these parties?
It is all so hopeless, despicable ...?

Re: # 13

Ch. Iftekhar is just a man; what really count is the ideal that he upholds. If God forbid he accepts the position back, that will be severe blow to the Pakistani nation but the ideal of a free judiciary and elimination of ghulamzadas and haramzadas will live and nature's operation clean up, which is in progress now, will accelerate.

Re: # 10

urstruly,


.... it seems your #1 condition has almost been met (the droopy eyed one should be signing up soon - he is holding out for a better contract) .... are you now willing to accept the results of the election or are you going to hold out until jamaat-i-islami and dr israr win the election ?

ISLAMABAD: Two out of the three remaining sacked judges of the Supreme Court (SC) have agreed to take a fresh oath and will be sworn in this week, sources said on Sunday.

The sources said Justice Raja Fayyaz Ahmad and Justice Chaudhry Ejaz Ahmad have agreed to take a fresh oath while Justice Khalilur Rehman Ramday has declined to do so, saying that he was no longer interested in the judicial service.

9 Posted by Naeemonline on September

whole last week (may be month) the pure pakistani army was firing on Indian posts to give cover to militants... As usual Pakistan governmenet is the most hypocrite government anywhere in the world. It will try to improve relations with India and internallo the only goal it can set fot itself is to destablize India or create trouble in India. Whether it is through terrorism, or fake currency or whatever, they do it with perfect sincerity. Despite being a small nation with hardly any trouble from other countries they beat USA hands down in their zeal to lie....

In near future you can not change goals of pakistanis and Islamicts in general..., doesn't matter what they say..

What people hetre on chowk do not understand is that if they are capable of ignoring the reason while they understand it, most commoners (those for Sharia, Taliban , Islamic rule plus those who need Kashmir to be separated from India badly) in pakistan can not even understand the reason and so do not know that they are being stupid..

Wrong!!

They do not have the miraculous ability that you ascribe to them.

They are just puny, malicious, hate filled scums of the ghettoes.

After 9/11 these scum bags have not been able to do anything in US.

They only took soft targets like India and Europe.

Now they are going to first clean up their munafiqoon fellows.

All these wetern educated are on the hit list. Remember, the first casuality of Islamists are these English speaking munafiqoons.

The ball is in the court of these munafiqoons- either they destroy these scum bags first or they get destroyed.......

One must acknowledge the fact that they (insert your fav title here - taliban, terrorists, CIA, ISI, RAW, Qaeda) can strike at will anywhere they want, and there is no stopping them. One of the reasons the so called Pakistani government cannot stop them is that it lacks legitimacy. The GOP is playing a schizophrenic policy by working against the people of Pakistan in order to receive their salaries from their American masters and at the same tiome claiming that somehow they are Awami democratic government. This is horseshit.

The common sense suggests that:

1. This so called government was "elected" by a staged and manupualted election by a vicious and shameless dictator to lengthen his rule of terror. It is completely another thing that things did not workout this way.

2. Each and everyone of the so called "elected official" was given amnesty by the same dictator from charges of corruption and even murder. No fair court of law in the world would exhonorate in this way. These people are known criminals and most have them played pawns in the deadly games that dictator used to play.

3. Napak fouj is a criminal outfit, which earns its living by torturing, killing, and selling kidnapped Pakistani citizens to countries who torture their POWs and shun every international law. The constitutional entity of Pakistan Armed Forces ceased to exist on October 10, 1998 when the trampled the constitution of Pakistan. Since then it is nothing more than an illegitimate criminal entity and sellouts.

4. Country does not have a functional judiciary. The so called judiciary that exists is only there to safeguard the interest of a corrupt, prowestern, criminal elite. No judge would dare go out in public because of their criminality and their work against the people of Pakistan. Judiciary has failed miserably to safeguard the citizenship rights of a Pakistani.

5. This criminality and illigetimacy of ruling elite has created a power vacuum in the country, which different forces are trying to fill vying to bring this chaos and criminality into order.

PAKISTAN still can survive:

1. Judiciary must be re-instated to the postion of Nov 9, 2007.

2. Constitution of 1973 must be established.

3. An independent election commission must be formed.

4. Elections must be held.

5. The issue of Pakistan's involvement in America's genocidal wars must be debated.

6. Government must adopt a policy based on the Constitional guarantees of 1973 to its citizens.

7. Fouji dogs must be put back into the kennels and given the rabbies shots.

Or the other option is....well you know.

Beena,
Oh all the blame comes now....? I have no symapthy for Taliban or any other religious fanatic but why are we so naive????? I mean these Talibans and terrorists and pashtoons and what not were our mujahideen and still are to some degree in the Indian Part of Kashmir. Why does it really matter to undermine them now? Is it because we turned our backs on them and now they have to kick our ass??
This is why I hate people like Zia-ul-haq who brought these people and also the system of government which totally undermines humanity. The most unfortunate thing about the country's situation is that these terrorist can do anything they want at this stage of the game. It is only a matter of time before they are running Pakistan. There is only one way to save Pakistan from all of this. All the people of Pakistan have to rise up and rally against these criminals and despies their acts with a louder voice and action if necessary. Don't let them preach you in mosques, don't let them tead you in prayers and most importantly don't let them tell you that you are not good muslims because that is the trick they use on dumb, senseless young minds.
Marginilization of the Taliban is going to be a difficult task given that the Pakistani government has rarely done any good for the North West Frontier and the inhibitants of that area. Well, lets see what happens. I can sit here and preach but i am sure that won't do any good....Actions are more important than words at this time.

Naeem

Beena

I agree with HP view, more importantly people like u need to be objective in your presentation.

"They wanted to be a part of Pakistan and to be treated like Pakistanis with enforceable rights"

Ofcourse its all a very sad situation all round. Poor people with no guns living in refugee camps are the ones who are pro-Pakistan. Unfortunately at this point their voices do not count as much as the opposition's.

I agree with HP, generally these poor refugees stories are told to demonise the Pak govt and deflect blame from the taliban.

You are either withus or against us? oh the irony!!! LOL!

Pakistan let in the Taliban and AlQaida by not reinforcing their control over the border areas as the terrorists were chased out. The Taliban and AlQaida are naturally violent organizations. Now the primary targets of terrorists are clamping down on them, such as the US and UK. This cuts off the 'food supply' for their agression. When you let a wild animal in your house and the food supply runs out then the animal looks to the home owner as food.
I think this fight is beyond Pakistans capacity to handle as it is being hit on all sides and the military is not trained or willing to take on a terroist group as lethal as the Taliban, Al Qaeda and ignorant barbarian Pakistani Taliban.A dog doesn't bark in Islamabad without prior authorization from the ISI.
The death of so many people is immensely tragic.I beg to urge Pakistan's new rulers to make a sharp break with the past and join those who are fighting against terrorism. The current phase of terrorism is the result of the process of Islamization begun by Zia-ul Hua (president 1977-1988) and, significantly, continued by all his successors. May all of the victims of this senseless act rest in peace. And I would also like to offer my condolences to the families and friends of the victims.Taliban fanatics are ignorant,they even can't write their names,Pakistani society should get up raise voice aginst these stne age mentality Taliban and Govt should crush them with heavy arm.
Mwaqar

gwynne dyer is an interesting writer, whom i read quite a bit......he is an expert on military affairs:

"The senior officers who now command the US armed forces should know that this is not just wrong but hugely counter-productive. They were all taught in staff college that the best way to counter terrorism is by police work, intelligence gathering, and defensive security measures. Using military force just plays into the terrorists' hands. Indeed, it's the reaction that the terrorists are usually hoping for.

As part of their military education, American generals have even read the various memoirs, manuals and manifestos in which leading practitioners of "urban guerilla warfare" and international terrorism laid down their strategies -- and they almost always wanted to get the other side's army involved in the fight against them. Senior US officers know that, and yet with a few brave exceptions who resigned, they have swallowed their professional pride and gone along with the Bush administration's unthinking belligerence." (GD)

...i think people are hugely underestimating al-qaeda and taliban etc.......these guys are not simply a bunch of ideological nutcases who are out to indoctrinate hamidm......

they are seasoned guirella warriors and terrorists, who are working through a well-organized plan.....which seems to be working......i.e. get as many armies involved in this war as possible.....resulting in as many civilian casualities as possible....and then utilize that mayhem and the opposition to the govts. of the population, to achieve certain political and military goals......

the only hope now is that obama will get elected and (setting aside his rhetoric on afghanistan) will have a much better world-view than bush (and mccain and republicans) and will be able to unwind the mistakes made by bush......

i think the recent economic crises has taken the wind, totally, out of bush....it has done, what the defeat in iraq was unable to do......

Can we finally wake up now?

Beena,
We have actually read all this before and I don't see the point of this article at all unless you intend to say based on some TV anchor's evidence that they want to be part of Pakistan.

This is funny. Aren't the Taliban their kin? Don't these people from Bajour know who the Taliban are? Why these people never cooperated with the authorities before?

They are displaced now but I seriously doubt that they want to be part of Pakistan. They would rather live the way they have lived for centuries. As soon as things settle down they will go back and start supporting the same taliban.

So help them but please don't buy in and sell this right wing stories from the Pakistani media that is trying to blame their plight on Pakistan and is not even ready to call taliban criminals.

The friends of fundamentalists are trying to sell us fantasy. Find out what the truth is and then write about it. You are a recognized columnists/ public Intellectual and you don't need to write half baked articles.

Once upon a time it was Called Holiday Inn and it has remained my favourite eating spot for long. I held a number of seminars in the Hall where the Thai cafe now was. Then I also installed the non chemical water treatment sytems on their air conditioning system. Recently, a new cafereria Dum Pukht had opened with traditional Mughal Food. Yesterday, after the evening Mass I debated whether to go there or not. Finally I decided to stay at home and the kids left for Islamabad.

My family had barely turned the corner at 5 minutes distance when the blast took place. Thank God they were outside the range.

The spot of the explosion is so familiar. I always stopped there for a moment to pat two Labradors (golden) called Dodo and Lucy. They were sniffers and always recognised me and my daughter. Very playful indeed!

I also remember the big moustached security guard who used to hold their leash. An ex-soldier, and a veteran of 1971 and an ex-prisoner of war.

God knows how many more that I knew are no more. The tall concierge dressed in red, the Valet drivers, page boys and the scanning machine staff.

I remember that young girl at the entrance next to the Chinese Restaurant Dynasty. She must have been right next to where the big crater is now. She always had that typical greeting smile across her face. I am sure she died with it.

The gentleman waiving with a small child from the fourth floor has turned out to be the ambassodor of Czech Republic. He burnt to death.

Rescue services for high rise bulidings were inadequate. No helicopters came on the roof top. Though the rescue services and Edhi were on the dot, they lacked the expertise to handle a disaster of such propotions.

The explosion has the tell tale signatures of the FIA building in Lahore and is most likely to be the work of a home grown organisation. This organisation is now known for double crossing