The Sangh Octopussy

The point here is very simple: anti-hindu propaganda and mass conversion - that's already illegal...

so don't blame it on constitution... constiution is not anti-hindu or anti-anybody else... don't blame it on hindus who have provided fine document for everybody to abide by...

missionary bigotry has floated all norms - laws and normal decency... either they mend their ways or BD will rampage...

DM

Advani is a jack-a##... who cares what he says?... solution to this is not going to come from advani or his fellow-travellers... it has to come from liberal secular-type people: because it's their mess - they have to clean it up...

Law has already been broken by both sides: the problem has started because missionaries have broken laws in the first place... so if you want to go that route, ask them to stop their illegal activities...

Speaking of constitution - religious freedom doesn't include mass conversion or anti-hindu propaganda... missionaries have broken law already... since nobody has tried to uphold that law - law has lost its authority already...

This has to be solved at the social level...

Eklavya#114:

When I said "family", I meant it literally.

The Sikh issues with Hindus are the opposite of what you suggest, they resent Hindus not respecting their separate identity.

I do agree with you that the Muslim group identity is very strong but British, American and Canadian intelligence agencies have been able to infiltrate Muslim organizations and obtain valuable information about terrorist cells. Why can't the Indian intelligence do the same? In fact, I think that they have already done that. I think that the Indian intelligence wrt Kashmiri insurgents is much better compared to that in the rest of India. This is because the administration in Kashmiri is largely Muslim and depends upon Muslim operatives for their information.

mohar11#113:

If belief in a law-abiding society makes me pseudo-secular, so be it.

But let me tell you that I have been railing against pseudo-secularism since before you joined chowk. I also believe that pseudo-secularism is built into the Indian constitution, but that constitution was not shoved down Hindu throats by the minorities but your own chosen and lok-priya netas. If you don't like those laws, get the 85% of your Hindu brothers to change those laws. But if you cannot win the majority of your own people and want to impose your will through some goons, then that to me is fascism.

Don't tell me Advani too has become "pseudo-secular".

Advani condemns attacks on Christians in Orissa, Karnataka

K Anurag in Guwahati | September 29, 2008 20:00 IST


Senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader L K Advani [Images] on Monday condemned the recent spate of attacks on the Christian community in parts of Orissa and Karnataka

Winding up his two-day visit to Assam and Meghalaya, Advani told the media," I strongly condemn these act of violence and vandalism. The law must take its course and the culprits must be brought to justice."

'Vested interests are hitting back at Christians'

The BJP leader, who held a meeting with leaders from various communities earlier in the day, said, "There is a need for frank and constructive inter-religious dialogues on these issues. Let people from various communities strengthen the bond of Indian-ness that ties us together in the larger national community."

About his meeting, Advani said, "I had a very fruitful meeting with religious leaders of different faiths including Hindus, Muslims and Christians."

We don't blame all Christians: Bajrang Dal leader

According to a source, the BJP leader assured the religious leaders that the chief ministers of Orissa and Karnataka had been asked to initiate detailed probe into the attacks on Christians in these states and bring the culprits to book.

He assured the leaders that the BJP believed in peaceful co-existence of all religious communities and the party had always tried to ensure that no section of the society was left behind.

Orissa: Normalcy returns, scars remain

"Religious sentiments should not precede national interests. India is a secular country and no section of the society should be neglected," Advani told the religious leaders.

The Christian delegation of Meghalaya, led by Arch Bishop Reverend Dominic Dala, submitted a memorandum to the BJP leader, protesting attacks against Christians in Orissa and Karnataka.

People in Karnataka are looking for issues to rally. Look at the recent past, the issues have been different but the results are the same.

Terrible as these incidents are - it also provides an opportunity to address concerns on both sides... the right approach for any real secular-minded person would be to negotiate with both sides: make sure issues church-type people tone down their anti-hindu propaganda, stop the illegal conversions... and BD-type people to stop burning churches... give-n-take on both sides will fix the issues...

But instead what we see is same-old randi-rona about secularism, minority-this and minority-that, and now there is a new buzz-word added - rule of law... same old head-in-sand ostrich approach, instead of trying to understand issues on ground and fix them fair and square.... I mean - why make thing more difficult than it has to be?...

Re: # 114 kaal

interesting theory... it may be right, unless somebody can point out an example where muslims have indeed helped kaffirs to break back of muslim-sponsored militancy...

I don't know what kind of family Sikhs are to you, DM ji, if you cannot let one month go without drawing some kind of equivalence between Sikhs/Sikhism and Muslims/Islam.

Probably not the kind that Sikhs would appreciate too much.

Sikh militancy "failed" because Sikhs themselves did not think like Muslims. Their instincts and goals were never Islamic instincts and goals. Sikhs had some specific issues, which Hindus (who were always focused by Sikhs being 'family' so why bother?) did not recognize.

Nobody would refuse jobs if you were handing them out, and you can hire as many Muslims as you like - there may be some discrimination but Muslims are after all, everywhere -, but don't expect any Muslim to do what Sikhs themselves did to end the militancy.

Islamic focus would be solely on (1) for each Muslims not to get personally blamed, (2) for Muslim not to be blamed as a group, and (3) to protect and save those who might be blamed by Hindus.

Expecting Muslims to help non-Muslim "break the back of" any militancy or what non-Muslims call terrorism is beyond absurd.


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Khair, i know we disagree. I need to take off for the day. Later, Sir. :)

Re: # 110
[..If Christian missionaries were distributing incendiary pamphlets in Karnataka they should have been prosecuted;...]

agree - but nobody has done that till date, these type issues have been happening for a long time... nobody in the mainstream even raises the issues...

So BD type goons has stepped in to fill the void... in absence of any mainstream political parties trying to fix the problem, BD goondas grab the legitimacy and support from people who are upset about such stuff... and then you liberals wake up and start breast-beating about rule of law and waht not... and to hide your own stupidity, you even start all kinds of conspiracy theories hindus may have done this to themselves and what not...

Kaal is right - this is a trouble of your own making - you liberals/pseudo-seculars... if you don't stand up for hindu issues, then hindu-right will stand-up and grab it and do mayhem... Secularism has to run both ways, otherwise it will not work...

Write articles on missionary-sponsored bigotry and chicanery - expose them as you have on RSS and then people will listen... otherwise, shut up and let BD fix the things their ham-handed way...

Eklavya#109:

I think that the example I gave of the importance of inside informants is quite relevant, regardless of the community. And I have no problem with Sikhs, they are my family.

nkg:

"The Karnataka events are all political."

Politics is inevitable a contributory factor in most of these riots; political parties generally take one side or another depending upon their "vote-bank". It creates problems mostly for the Congress Party which wants to appeal to all sides. But it too is paying the price of the karma of its previous actions when it too used the politics of minority vote banks.

harimau#85:

"Dost and Mittar of Minorities"

What's wrong with that. Happy minorities make for a happy society, isn't it?

"What you are saying is that Christian missionaries can do whatever they want but if Hindu missionaries adopt the same tactics (such as educating them and providing health care), they are wrong in doing so."

You are wrong because I uphold the right of Hindu missionaries to use the same tactics as Christians. But I am not aware of Christian missionaries burning Hindu priests or their temples. So far, there has not been any proof that any Christian organization was involved in the killing of Swami Laxmanananda.

If Christian missionaries were distributing incendiary pamphlets in Karnataka, they should have been prosecuted; I am sure there is more than one law in India against such activity.

cheema ji, he he, I am not sure if my agreement would do you any good.:)

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DM ji, for once, only once, would you please discuss Islam and Muslims without bringing in Sikhism and Sikhs in the same breath? :)

If you are a Punjabi Hindu then this approach is tragic. It might be behind all the "problems" Hindus have had with Sikhs. Sikhism is NOT Islam. Its issues are not issues of Islam. Nor can its solutions be Islam's solutions.

krishna_abcd#62:

The Indian media, especially electronic, has become trash. My impression is that the Pakistani media is much more vigorous in discussing substantive issues than the Indian media.

Yes, there is need to discuss issue of conversion and the fissures it is causing in the society. I think that this would be quite therapeutic for the society.

pinku#57:

I could also add that many BJP people in Delhi have Bangladeshi muslim women as domestic help (and they would like Bangladeshis to be sent back to Bangladesh, except their maid).

The discrimination is in the police and other administrative services. It is now causing a problem in fighting terrorism; the only way to get good information about Islamic terrorism is by hiring people who are part of the muslim community and live in muslim neighbourhoods. Terrorism in Punjab was broken because the police was largely Sikh and therefore had full access to the community harbouring Sikh extremists.