The Sangh Octopussy

seems i have not yet said enough:-)

Let'e be bold and brave once againa...



What is peace? How can Pakistan and India coexist peaqcefully???

The answer is by having no conflicts. So we know once such conflict is Kashmir and it is a big one???

What we ignore is that it is not the real conflict between Pakistan and India, the real conflict is what Pakistanis very safely ignore but can be seen here on Chowk very easily.

The real issue is that Pakistan ended up as Islamic state and that it had the seeds of whatever is happening now, since its inception or much much before its inception.

The issue is that even its most educated people are as moderate as its Talibanis when it comes to tolerance. How many in Pakistan are tolerant of an idea that India is ruled by Hindus for next 100 years??? Well, ignore 5-6 people that you can find here on chowk, check rest of population their middle class itself is not that tolerant of good ideas. The poors as usual will be more tolerant of live and let live philosophy, but the semi-educated (semi doesn't mean 10th pass, BA, MA, BE, PhDs who do not know how to think properly) middle class is all for Islamic identity minus whatever you will prove to them is not something good.

So if you beat their head and prove that complete body-covering burqu is not good, they willl say okay Islamic state but not body covering burkha... then you say that only one marriage should be allowed at a time. you will find it difficult but may be they will say ok Islamic state with one marriage..... you can increase list slowly, but you are doing it with a few people at a time..... it will stil be difficult to make them agree that ok "that state won't work for Islam, it doesn't care if you are muslims or not".

It is this mentality that is there since its inception which those Pakistani in USA can safely ignore but which is very difficult to change, given the contents of Kuran and Mullaha speech.


So the first thing for Pakistan is to become a secular state.

Re #49 Posted by dost_mittar on

There is no reason for muslims to remain unhappy in India. Only people who have not lived with muslims in India can think so. Muslims in UP live as if they are majority in their own places, while Hindu never live like a majority, they live more individually.
An affluent muslim in India employs as many people as he wants and most of them hindus. And if you check with those employers most of them have their businesses run by hindu managers. Same for hindu manager, they worry about your worth as an employee not about your caste/religion. They worry about money. So at professional level hindus never create mis-trust based on their religion.

Educated muslims say in egineering, MBAs or whatever will not be able to say that they find any discrimination in India. It will be less compared to what you see elsewhere. So happiness or unhapiness of muslims in India is largely created by them only. Except for some recent global social pressure where Islam is seen as violent religion.

Again, Bulleya or others who want to find indian muslims in IT, do not see the real problem. First there are very few
pakistani muslims in IT???, so forget about indian muslims.

There are very few Indian bengalis, indian jats, indian Sikhs, north indians in IT????

Most of high tech industry in India developed in South, so the majority comes from Telgus, Tamils, Kannadians and then perhaps Maharsatra and rest of India, in that order.


I don't understand why on earth an educated muslim will feel comfortable in discussing Islam with anyone?? It is an inherently un-comfortable issue to discuss with anyone, even with Arab muslim. How can you discuss it with a Hindu??




There is no solution to Kashmir, except keeping the line of control, anything else, doesn't matter what Indian or Pakistani governments say, will create a larger social conflict that will involve all population of India and Pakistan. Involvement of Indian population is guranteed because they have 160 million muslims. Kashmir is not a political problem for people. It is political problem only for India/Pak governments and not even for Kashmiries.

The moment you separate Kashmir from India, muslims in India become un-wanted, not only that, the political scene will change drastically. Forget about clashes or riots, I am not talking about them, they are short term affairs with long term effects. The long term effect of separation of Kashmir from India will be a social condition that will make muslims unacceptable in India.

Further, as this will not be any solution, there wil be no increase in interaction as Bulleya or DM sugested. A separate Kashmir will interact with Pakistan, but everything "social" between Pakistan and India with that kind of political solution will come to halt. Don't worry these are such assumptions, rest you will see if it happens. So keep your thoughts open.

#47 Posted by dost_mittar on
I think i already gave a very long reply to this question, in my last or last to last comment.

1. Protection of truth doesn't affect rule of law. So challanging missionaries, their ideologies will always be perfect thing to do.

2. Killing is not an option, nor should this be done using illiterate people. Mass movement is good but common people shouldn't merely be instigated. Tell people proper reason and then ask them to show unity but not through killings.

As I said confront ideas, or confront people through ideas, not through weapons. For weapons use age old principle, till you find they are aiming at you, don't shoot, unless you are in battle-field.

3. Rule of law is protected by government/police or whatever. Don't decide against what you should speak or shouldn't speak based on rule of law. Decide based on truths, ideas, even less on situations.


Now the last thing, don't force on yourself or on us this "how can you allow or not alow" thing. When you say something against a organization or whatever, say whatever you feel is truth, in whatever degree you perceive. And you are already doing that. The degree is important when you discuss such things, give people enough of comparison so that they do not fool themselves. So Bajrang dal is not, so far, going to create terrorist organizations world-wide to convert people or fight the hindu-war. There is not even a remote possibility, you can not achieve that even if you employ all of your resources in your life time.

RSS is not against religions, its scholls like Sarasvati shishu mandirs or Sharasvati bal mandirs do not create talibaani type people. And they enroll many muslims in schools and at all levels. Their ideology is offense against offense, not offense for spreading Hinduism. Even after so many years and with enough money they don't have a propaganda machinery to convert people, they have a machinery only to stop conversion.

Most effective thing is to dis-allow proselytization, this will create a huge debate and people from other countries will also get involved, but this debate wil help society. People will get to know more about religions, politics of religions, how governments supports them or manipulate them and lot more.

As Eklavya says, India is the only country (now Nepal also) where rule of laws are somewhat against majority. Where government doesn't work for main religion. Even country like USA, who internally are very secular, feel forced to behave like Christian countries externally. But I consider it to be something good, externally India behaves they way a country should behave, internally they are a corrupt/divided democracy. But things will improve for sure.

clifton,

Burning down churches is most unfortunate, and to be condemned by all, without reservation. No ifs and buts about it.

But the blame for that crime lies sqaurely on the shoulders of liberal Hindus. These people have failed in their basic duty of representing the most important concerns of ordinary Hindus. Instead they have given these latter impossible targets to meet, while eating up all resources themselves, sitting in their comfortable houses.

If after every church is burnt down, you put behind bars ten most vocal liberal Hindus, and threw away the keys in the Bay of Bengal, the problem of burning churches will go away very soon.

kaal burning down churches is not a hallmark of any mainstream islamic party. Even by the low standards of humanity set by many religious islamic parties this is clearly and shockingly wrong.

It is perhaps the same ideology as the extremist religious islamic parties though i can not think of any recent example .... is that some justification?

DM ji, you are calling these Hindu organizations fascist organizations. Right?

What can you tell us about historical allaince between Fascism and Many Islamic organizations, and the ideological basis of that alliance?

Can we put that close work together against the 'appreciation' these Hindu organizations have offered to fascism, as you see it, and ideological basis of that appreciation?

Eklavya#46:

I am not calling every Hindu fascist, so why should I call every Muslim fascist?

Maharana#43:

Thanks for that BBC link. It does provide a fair background to the current situation. The tribal situation is certainly multilayered but the introduction of Bajrang Dal, not only in Orissa, but other states as well is making Christians feel insecure everywhere.

Kamath#37:

I am glad that you agree that the laws of the land must be upheld. It has taken a generation to deradicalise Sikh youth and the resentment has still not fully subsided. One wonders how long it will take to deradicalise the Muslim youth.

bulleya#35:

"...i am not sure an indian muslim feels more secure with a a pakistani.....i think he feels more secure with any muslim, when discussing an issue that involves islam......i am not sure if being a pakistani has anything to do with it..."

This is what the two nation theory was all about. This gentleman was not discussing the quran or hadis with you but the problems he was facing as a Muslim. I am not blaming this person, he is obviously smart and knows whom to trust and whom not; although I am surprised that at his level, he has not found intimate social relationship with any of his colleagues or former classmates that he could share his inner feelings with.

"......once kashmir is solved, invariably, it will lead to free flow of people and business.......pakistan will cease to be the enemy.......and indian muslims will cease to be evaluated in the context of pakistan.....their loyalties will not be doubted.....indians will see tens of thousands of pakistani muslims travelling to india and vice-versa......."

I agree to some extent with part of your above statement, but in reverse. The suspicion regarding Indian Muslims is tied to the enmity between India and Pakistan and the lowering of that enmity should reduce those suspicions; however, if a solution to Kashmir problem precedes establishment of friendly relations between the two countries, and if that solution is Kashmir's disintegration from India, that suspicion will increase and not decrease. There is no way that Hindus are going to view the loyalties of Indian Muslims as different from that of Kashmiri Muslims, regardless of the correctness of that perception.

DM ji, one has no problem with your describing Hindu organizations as you do, after you clearly state that every Muslim is a fascist. Then you can most certainly say, with reason and justice on your side, that Hindu organizations are fascism sympathizers.

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dm ji, that 'rule of law' refrain is silly, and standard refrain of Islamists, since they know the law is on their side. :)

I personally do not support breaking the law, even though it is patently anti-Indic. One can only be interested in changing the mindset of Indic people, so they can apply the law better, and not let it harm them.

pinku, laddu, eklavya:

I have a simple question for you people: do you believe in the rule of law or you don't? If you don't, I have no further questions for you, but if you do, how can you let a group of people kill and destroy the properties of people who are merely doing what the law of the land says is their inalienable right?

DM ji, have you actually studied the history of fascism and its relationship with Islam?

And then put that relative to RSS's admiration of Fascism at that time?

What can you tell us all about Mussolini and Islam? :)

Eklavya#27,28:

What's wrong with calling the RSS fascist? I don't know if you are aware that during the formative years of the RSS, fascism was not considered to be a dirty word and there were a large number of admirers even in the UK and the USA of what Mussolini and Hitler had done for their countries under Fascist regimes.

romair yar, i can definitely see how a mussalman will feel insecure. when there is a riot, a bomb-blast etc, 99% of his hindu colleagues (RSS or not) will not help him and the police etc will also be less likely to be sympathetic. what if this guy IS a sleeper-cell jihadi (or a police-designated jihadi?) the hindu will get his ass dragged thru indian courts and police..who wants that?

fortunately sikhs have fared well after problems of the eighties, they have targeted specifically like indira and not resorted to train bombs and that has probably been a contributing factor, but essentially its a indic-non-indic stuff that eklavya talks of.

so once root-cause (jihad) is removed the indian mussalman may get secure but that is unfortunately not likely to happen in near future.

Dost Mittar,

One of the main reasons for this conflict happens to be a legal issue glossed over by most. You mention that the missionaries educate the converts better and hence they can avail of the reservation system. The moment you convert to xstianity u are not supposed to have any caste and hence cannot avail of the reservation quota. This is what the tribals who retain their tribal identity complain about. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Besides, an excellent and long due coverage of the problem is given here as well: Please note that it is not a religious issue alone as people have superficially assumed it to be.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7637087.stm

Adios