The Sangh Octopussy

#149 #150....
Govt., with limited resource can not control mob frenzy all the times. When you see more than 1 lakh people participating in an incident, how will you tell the police to take stern action against such a huge mob? It is not possible....

Re: # 120
DM...

"The Sikh issues with Hindus are the opposite of what you suggest, they resent Hindus not respecting their separate identity...."

Indians (Hindus) don't recognise Jains, Buddhists....as separate identity as well. An outright atheist like Buddha, was taken in Hinduism as avatar of Vishnu or Sakya Muni....
Sir, Indians/Hindus are so large hearted, they generaly try to include everything within their fold...That is why the concept of India is still very much alive...a Madrasi will defend his Sardarji counterpart, though they crack joke about each other in their private parties....

Re: # 151
Kamath...
Cool down my friend. It is not the matter of Bajrangees alone. What these fellows (BD) are doing in Gujrat and Karnataka is very bad. But the incidents in Kandhamal is something different.....Tribal are killing tribals not at the instance of people of Nagpur. It is survival of their culture and getting rid of deception from the Christian Missionaries....Unless and until, Govt. ensures that, the tribals, who are under payroll of Vatican, is not extended Govt. benefits as tribals, the war will intensify....The Govt. has to take some action, which benefits tribals, without loosing their identity....
Sangh, with it's vandalism, is the only organisation, who can threaten islamic militants....

Re: # 128 krishna_abcd;

You seem to relishe &-penises as you write in your post. Send me your address to me. I shall send post haste few things that oozes from mine for your morning breakfast. Then you can go and beat some helpless minorities- with your Bajrang buddies.

Kamath

DM # 149,
Indeed the actions of the hindu zealots and the inability of the state machinery to stop these violent acts are condemnable and should be put an end to quickly. But then, when has our state ever effectively prevented such violence from happening? I recall Punjab, the anti-sikh violence, Ram Janmbhoomi- Babri masjid, bombay riots etc. We all know that if the state machinery wanted to, they could have prevented or atleast stopped it. Do you think that perhaps due to the government's suspect intentions, the people finally take law in their own hands?
But then that brings us to another topic for other time i.e. the defeat of upholding the constitutional rights of individuals by the government while pandering to the most primeval instinct of survival of a group defined by ethnic, religious or caste lines.
When the government can publicly state that the possible cause of islamic terrorism is alienation of muslims in the society, I often wonder why the same explanation is not warranted in orrisa. This has been brewing for the last 15-20 years and no one cares, effectively alienating the tribes there.
Adios

Maharana#147:

I agree with you and am not insensitive to the underlying causes and concerns as you mentioned. In my other articles and interacts, I have frequently expressed sympathy and support for those concerns. However, if the media are not doing their job (although there are quite a few in print journalism who are doing a fair job) or if some overzealous missionaries are stepping out of bounds, one could understand people protesting outside the media outlets or some hot heads giving a thrashing to that priest but, as you agree, this does not justify burning of churches or killing of Christians?

there is something to be said about conversion..let us say a destitute gets help from a mission, gets a fishing rod and learns to fish. now, he can clearly recognize the pivotal event which is further reinforced by the new religious community. a destitute may get help from a local considerate man (as was the practice in indian villages, who would feed orphans routinely..indeed the village always ensured that brhmin orphan kids never missed out on education) but without a conversion and new community to belong to, the significance of the pivot is blurred. there have been counteless home-brew missionaries e.g. one karve who lead womens education and widow resettlement, some amte baba who ran a massive lepers colony and so on, but they are not to be confused with the power of religious missionary work.

person belongs to a new community with a renewed vigor, gives back to the "alma mater", indeed becomes a gaji for the new community and spreads the message of new light. now these mechanisms, this zeal, this vigor are simply missing in home-brew shyte.

nkg # 143,

"Comparing RKM with Missionaries of Charity is like comparing IIT Kanpur with Red Mosque of Pakistan.."

You know that the indian media has done a wonderful job in painting just the opposite. No wonder that according to a poll in India people respect Mother T more than anyone else in the country. Only a few people who know these facts would affirm your views about the two organisations. You would be surprised that RKM's work of providing vocational training to the prostitutes (hindus and muslims alike) was shown in the US channels. I did some research later on to find out the extent of work RKM does and since then crossed over from the "illetrate/low life" you mention. Unfortunately this information is not available in indian media as readily on primetime networks. Therein lies my disgust for the indian media as just one more example of their incompetence and lack of the ability to think objectively and not follow the herd mentality. DM is right on to say that the paki media is far better than the indian media.
Despite the fact that all violence in the name of religion or anything is deplorable and that the christians in india should be protected, I think articles that merely gloss over the surface without studying the ground realities only add to the pent up frustration and mess up the situation further. I think to solve the problem, it is important to know the problem first.

Adios

tahmed@123:

This figures cannot be added as some people would have memberships in multiple organizations. Also, wikipedia is not always an authoritative source in these matters.

Tahmed # 132,

Thanks for your response and accepting the facts. It takes courage to accept facts contrary to one's held views.

Adios

#131...
Mother T is respected but not RKM...
Who are those people who respect Mother T and don't respect R K M? May be some illiterate low lives/ordinary lives....


R K M is of different league- I have not seen such institution in India so far. Far better managed than any Mutt and convent (with due respect to Loreto House etc...). The variety of programs they form for different section of society is un-imaginable...
For poor people in villages-cheap sanitation, pisciculture, sericulture, bio-fertiliser, training female SHGs, supporting primary education, in cities- computer training centres, ITIs, Polytechniques......

Re: # 129
Maharana....
Well posted....The blame should squarely go to R K Mission.
They were never media savy nor try to bring people in their fold with cheap publicity and colorful events....
During (so called) independence movement, Vivekanada was strictly against any political activities and even scolded sister Nivedita for attending Congress session. Though luminaries like Subhas Bose etc. were his followers, but none of the cow belt leaders (who later dominated central politics and Govt.), were ever involved in any of the R K M activities. Ramkrishna was very much against taking donation from business community and in several occations he had rejected financial assistance from prominant businessmen. So, R K Mission had lost the patronage of Birlas and Bajajs etc... as well as Congress leaders....CPI(M) tried to destroy the organisation several times. But ultimately failed ( such a strong value system)....

For Missionaries of Charity, Mother Teresa was USP ( Unique Selling Point) and she had sold indian poverty to the western people and church to collect money. It was no doubt good effort. But the effect of this work is very minimal. Travel 5 KM outside Kolkata, you will see no trace of it's work. Anyhow, R K Mission do not depend upon press publicity. Neither it arranges colorful events etc...It is of different league, different intellectual level....

The alumni of the schools/colleges run by R K M is enough for R K Mission....Comparing RKM with Missionaries of Charity is like comparing IIT Kanpur with Red Mosque of Pakistan....

There is a nice biography of Ramkrishna by Nobel Lauriate (Literature-1915) Romaine Rolland (France). He was Ramakrishn'a ardent disciple (Like Vivekananda). Majority of the indians need to reach upto that intellectual level to know and appreciate RKM.....
I know couple of IIT toppers joined RKM just after completetion of their PhD ( Integrated PhD)...You can see the VYC (Vivekananda Youth Circles) in many engineering colleges and IIT Chennai...


Regarding Tahmed's comment...he is inbred retard. I don't see any point to take his words seriously regarding R K M.... His level is upto the 7th century arab beduine, his camels, wives, 72 virgins, heaven, how islam brings universal brotherhood (and punish infidels and collect extortion money.....)- middle eastern stupidity and barbarism...

#103 Posted by Eklavya

I am a secular humanist. I think God/Gods was/were created by man in His own image. I am sure you have seen the movie Planet of the Apes (1968.

If one attributes nature’s wonders to a ‘Creator’, it is OK with me. I have no problem with any religious person as long as he does not impose his views on me.

Here are two favorite Bertrand Russell quotes:
“Christians hold that their faith does good, but other faiths do harm. At any rate, they hold this about the Communist faith. What I wish to maintain is that all faiths do harm. We may define 'faith' as a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. When there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith.' We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence.�

“The standpoint of modern liberal theologians is well set forth by Dr. Tennant in his book The Concept of Sin. to him sin consists in acts of will that are in conscious opposition to a known law, the moral law being known by Revelation as God's will. It follows that a man destitute of religion cannot sin�

Re #125 Posted by Kamath on

Who filtered that comment of Kamath???

Why does anybody needs to filter any comment???

Which is more important hospital built by Aga Khan /ram Krishna or Satff (nurses doctors Technicians).I think the people running the Hospital Schools Are servfull and serving more than the insitution named after

And some time these bilding of Instituion are not at all altruistic
.

#130 pinku: maharana already advised me on this, and i already acknowledged below. but thanks anyway.

I gave one conclusion very early.... very very biased one???

Fight for banning proselytization in India.... it won't be that easy USA/Vatican and all will scream in favour of these missionaries..... will say that it is done directly on the order of God and God will burn you here itself if you deny it....but even then it is a good fight, it will tell both pope and christian countries that people have now started talking against proselytization...

I hope that soon we have some significant people who can talk to these religious people nicely in open forums and on TV and can show to world that our religious leaders do need to learn a lot about God..

Let's be bold again.....



Hinduism gives a very open ideology and one that gives some excellent ideas. Hindus can still be anything they want, good, bad or ugly. But whenever they will read their scriptures they tend to get better ideas.

Reverse is true for Islam, Islam gives a narrow ideology with not so good ideas. Muslims can still be anything they want, good or bad. But whenever they read their scriptures they tend to get bad ideas.

ambiquity of typo error need correction

....argue that Brits were christians whatever there motive as in all cases

Max mueller

Thresa

Queen of England are suspect .
Were there they realy good intentioned ?

Some think Atkins High protein diet is correct some think Ornish vegeterian diet is correct.Some will se cospiracy of Non Veg in this !

#130 Posted by tahmed32 on

tahmed,

Read on Ramkrishan Mission before you call it a terrorist organization???

All Christian missionaries have already got more respect then they are worth, there are so many others who nobody knows. When Tsunamy happened so many small Hindu organizations helped administration.

Re: # 133
Jang ji what was that up ina rms of Sangh inluding BD WATER not to be films on location in India
Finally the movie was made in simulated scene in SriLanka giving the impression it was Benares ?
If the treatment of Widows (and u have seen the movie )was shown exemplary why was Sang ASHAMED of it ?



Regarding Ram Krishna Mission i know they are good Samaritan run hospital i worked briefly at 'they have good schools all acknowledged if you go to right meeting you Will know how much they are respected .Immensely


.Ram Krishna is home grown organisation it is done for FAMILY and who do u thank them for .The Indians if they do not thank who is to be blamed ?

Max Muller was great Sanskrit scholar .Hindu ancient scripture are in Sanskrit .Who else will appreciate ancient
scriptures do u think non Sanskrit knowing person ?.I can say that there is great respect for Max Muller in areas i a know better
Hndus have been stingy themselves in appreciating popularising Max

Have they issued a Stamp in his name / Is he memoralised Max Mueller Bhavan
Brits built the FIRST sanskrit (college)Univ in Calcutta 200 /150years ago .Incidently l Hindu Only were admitted and allowed to study

Didnot brits do a lot to develop education of Sanscrit no less than Geman max Muellerr ?

I argue that Brits were christians whatever motive as inall cass Max mueller Thresa Queen of England are suspect .Were thegod intentioned ?

IRONY IS SOME DONT THINK MAX MUELER WAS THAT SIMPLE INDOPHILE


.Laddu dug up some articles which criticized Max Meuller acting as Germasn Spy Taking Indology for there own exploitation .

If Defender of Hinduism Laddu think contrary to you guys .There defenitely its not open and shut case Max Mueller, good

Anglophiles christian Bad .
as far as Appreciation of Hinduism is done by more english speaking .When Max MUELLERS motive intention is also just as suspect as Mothere thresas missionary !
Treatment of Widow is another story for jang to discuss some other day .

mathura has had huge ashrams for ever where widows discarded by greedy society could live in relative safety (they prolly would have been killed)...i even saw a movie about it called water.

so hindus too have run homes for widows for a long time.

Maharana: better yet, i'll take your word for it. if this mission has nothing to do with hindu extremism and is an organization that engages in charitable activities, then that is fine.

note though, that there are a large number of organizations engaged in charitable activities in most countries at any time. no doubt mother teresa became an icon for all such organizations - but what is the point of comparisons? comparisons are odious, as they say. let us just appreciate those organizations (like RK is, i assume) that are part of the solution, and disassociate from those that are part of the problem.

Tahmed,

That is why I mention that Mother T is respected. While RK is not. See the discrepancy or not!
And if you call RK as terrorist org then I think u need a C-Scan. Please do care to do a basic google on RK mission and kindly enlighten us all on their terrorist activities.
Maybe I have got my facts wrong..so why don't you tell us about RK mission from what you have found?
Adios

Maharana: i dont recall mother teresa killing innocent people and intimidating minorities like these beautiful hindu extremists you mention. You think that could perhaps be the reason most people would find your comparison..lets say..funny?

Kamath # 125,

I think we all admire the sense of service imparted by the missionaries and yes overlook the proselytization part because of that. See how popular Mother Teresa is..despite the fact that some of her views about denial of abortion to rape victims in her charity hospitals or the neccessity of accepting jesus the lord and saviour before any treatment is given out.
But that brings me to the question that has been repeated by many here..Could you frigging extend the same respect to the people of Ramakrishna mission in india who have been doing the same without asking for conversion to any faith? For that matter how many people actually know about it? Or how many know that the RK mission has been taking beggars and prostitutes from the streets of calcutta and giving them vocational training so they can stand on their own. Perhaps they are foolish not to encourage these people to spend the rest of the eternity in servitude of the religion that liberated them. Or perhaps just maybe they are driven by purely humanitarian emotions which are not worthy of mention in any media circulation in India.

Your talk smells of the language used by the brits in the movie 'Ana and the King". There's a reason why that movie is banned in Thailand. But thats easy to understand..you see they were never colonised by the europeans.

Adios

#125 Posted by Kamath

[It is the Christians who did this:

1. They picked up poorest orphan girls fed them, clothed them made them pray to the God and live a moral life. They could only teach them forom the Bible. But Bible has message of compassion. Thereby they saved from possibly a being a begger or a prostitute.

2. It is the Christians who picked up lepers and took them leper colonies and fed them bandaged their wounds.

Now tell me you are admirers of these murderous Hindu Talibanis! Would you even touch a leper as the Christians did or do now. You would see the orphans and lepers on the streets. Then you pour money after money on those murthis in temples who neither, speak, nor see, nor hear.]


Here's a link for you, penis-brain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Sevashram_Sangha

This has a long list of charitable work, including Leprosy Welfare programs. Also, there are, and have always been, thousands of Hindu charitable institutions in India. Only thing is, they are not into the business of "converting".

So...how does it feel now that you realize that you are truly an ignorant dickhead?

Eh?

Re #125 Posted by Kamath on

Kamath,

Even Schopenhauer or Voltair who despised Christianity as much as they could, were Christians by birth and further every british good or bad who came to India was a Christian??? Some who came here did good job and some didn't. Many of those jobs were decided by the british rulers as per their civic laws.

Further it is your desire to think that Christians are not good, who says that for Christian, muslims or hindus. they are good and bad people everywhere. Christianity itself is not that good. And proselytization is very bad, selling God in bargain of help is bad.


We can also discuss who Max Muler was and how much he respected Christianity in different times of his life... Do you know how many years he spent in Benares in learning sanskrit and understanding what those scriptures are???

Or are you under impression that people in India didn't know those scriptures and Max muller gave them the translations. The need for translation was his need, or need of the German philosophers not Indian need, he was obliged by those Benares Brahmins that they made him leanr what Sanskrit is and what those scriptures say, not that he obliged anyone. He and those prior to him who learned sanskrit, which includes so many of Germans (all of whom were Christians) either obliged themselves or future generations of philosophers but not the author of those scriptures nor the people who taught thse europeans sanskrit and scriptures.

Make sure you know things before you tell who is biased..

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in #123 that 60 million is by a quick and rough adding up of the membership of the various sub-organizations of sangh parivar in your article.

Dost Mittar: So, the picture that emerges is almost a parallel, dictatorial government in India - 60,000 offices of an organized hierarchy, and 60 million members of the main group (Sangh Parivar) only!

Lets hope for the sake of the ordinary indian that it will evolve into the National Boyscouts Association. :-)

The point here is very simple: anti-hindu propaganda and mass conversion - that's already illegal...

so don't blame it on constitution... constiution is not anti-hindu or anti-anybody else... don't blame it on hindus who have provided fine document for everybody to abide by...

missionary bigotry has floated all norms - laws and normal decency... either they mend their ways or BD will rampage...

DM

Advani is a jack-a##... who cares what he says?... solution to this is not going to come from advani or his fellow-travellers... it has to come from liberal secular-type people: because it's their mess - they have to clean it up...

Law has already been broken by both sides: the problem has started because missionaries have broken laws in the first place... so if you want to go that route, ask them to stop their illegal activities...

Speaking of constitution - religious freedom doesn't include mass conversion or anti-hindu propaganda... missionaries have broken law already... since nobody has tried to uphold that law - law has lost its authority already...

This has to be solved at the social level...

Eklavya#114:

When I said "family", I meant it literally.

The Sikh issues with Hindus are the opposite of what you suggest, they resent Hindus not respecting their separate identity.

I do agree with you that the Muslim group identity is very strong but British, American and Canadian intelligence agencies have been able to infiltrate Muslim organizations and obtain valuable information about terrorist cells. Why can't the Indian intelligence do the same? In fact, I think that they have already done that. I think that the Indian intelligence wrt Kashmiri insurgents is much better compared to that in the rest of India. This is because the administration in Kashmiri is largely Muslim and depends upon Muslim operatives for their information.

mohar11#113:

If belief in a law-abiding society makes me pseudo-secular, so be it.

But let me tell you that I have been railing against pseudo-secularism since before you joined chowk. I also believe that pseudo-secularism is built into the Indian constitution, but that constitution was not shoved down Hindu throats by the minorities but your own chosen and lok-priya netas. If you don't like those laws, get the 85% of your Hindu brothers to change those laws. But if you cannot win the majority of your own people and want to impose your will through some goons, then that to me is fascism.

Don't tell me Advani too has become "pseudo-secular".

Advani condemns attacks on Christians in Orissa, Karnataka

K Anurag in Guwahati | September 29, 2008 20:00 IST


Senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader L K Advani [Images] on Monday condemned the recent spate of attacks on the Christian community in parts of Orissa and Karnataka

Winding up his two-day visit to Assam and Meghalaya, Advani told the media," I strongly condemn these act of violence and vandalism. The law must take its course and the culprits must be brought to justice."

'Vested interests are hitting back at Christians'

The BJP leader, who held a meeting with leaders from various communities earlier in the day, said, "There is a need for frank and constructive inter-religious dialogues on these issues. Let people from various communities strengthen the bond of Indian-ness that ties us together in the larger national community."

About his meeting, Advani said, "I had a very fruitful meeting with religious leaders of different faiths including Hindus, Muslims and Christians."

We don't blame all Christians: Bajrang Dal leader

According to a source, the BJP leader assured the religious leaders that the chief ministers of Orissa and Karnataka had been asked to initiate detailed probe into the attacks on Christians in these states and bring the culprits to book.

He assured the leaders that the BJP believed in peaceful co-existence of all religious communities and the party had always tried to ensure that no section of the society was left behind.

Orissa: Normalcy returns, scars remain

"Religious sentiments should not precede national interests. India is a secular country and no section of the society should be neglected," Advani told the religious leaders.

The Christian delegation of Meghalaya, led by Arch Bishop Reverend Dominic Dala, submitted a memorandum to the BJP leader, protesting attacks against Christians in Orissa and Karnataka.

People in Karnataka are looking for issues to rally. Look at the recent past, the issues have been different but the results are the same.

Terrible as these incidents are - it also provides an opportunity to address concerns on both sides... the right approach for any real secular-minded person would be to negotiate with both sides: make sure issues church-type people tone down their anti-hindu propaganda, stop the illegal conversions... and BD-type people to stop burning churches... give-n-take on both sides will fix the issues...

But instead what we see is same-old randi-rona about secularism, minority-this and minority-that, and now there is a new buzz-word added - rule of law... same old head-in-sand ostrich approach, instead of trying to understand issues on ground and fix them fair and square.... I mean - why make thing more difficult than it has to be?...

Re: # 114 kaal

interesting theory... it may be right, unless somebody can point out an example where muslims have indeed helped kaffirs to break back of muslim-sponsored militancy...

I don't know what kind of family Sikhs are to you, DM ji, if you cannot let one month go without drawing some kind of equivalence between Sikhs/Sikhism and Muslims/Islam.

Probably not the kind that Sikhs would appreciate too much.

Sikh militancy "failed" because Sikhs themselves did not think like Muslims. Their instincts and goals were never Islamic instincts and goals. Sikhs had some specific issues, which Hindus (who were always focused by Sikhs being 'family' so why bother?) did not recognize.

Nobody would refuse jobs if you were handing them out, and you can hire as many Muslims as you like - there may be some discrimination but Muslims are after all, everywhere -, but don't expect any Muslim to do what Sikhs themselves did to end the militancy.

Islamic focus would be solely on (1) for each Muslims not to get personally blamed, (2) for Muslim not to be blamed as a group, and (3) to protect and save those who might be blamed by Hindus.

Expecting Muslims to help non-Muslim "break the back of" any militancy or what non-Muslims call terrorism is beyond absurd.


--------------

Khair, i know we disagree. I need to take off for the day. Later, Sir. :)

Re: # 110
[..If Christian missionaries were distributing incendiary pamphlets in Karnataka they should have been prosecuted;...]

agree - but nobody has done that till date, these type issues have been happening for a long time... nobody in the mainstream even raises the issues...

So BD type goons has stepped in to fill the void... in absence of any mainstream political parties trying to fix the problem, BD goondas grab the legitimacy and support from people who are upset about such stuff... and then you liberals wake up and start breast-beating about rule of law and waht not... and to hide your own stupidity, you even start all kinds of conspiracy theories hindus may have done this to themselves and what not...

Kaal is right - this is a trouble of your own making - you liberals/pseudo-seculars... if you don't stand up for hindu issues, then hindu-right will stand-up and grab it and do mayhem... Secularism has to run both ways, otherwise it will not work...

Write articles on missionary-sponsored bigotry and chicanery - expose them as you have on RSS and then people will listen... otherwise, shut up and let BD fix the things their ham-handed way...

Eklavya#109:

I think that the example I gave of the importance of inside informants is quite relevant, regardless of the community. And I have no problem with Sikhs, they are my family.

nkg:

"The Karnataka events are all political."

Politics is inevitable a contributory factor in most of these riots; political parties generally take one side or another depending upon their "vote-bank". It creates problems mostly for the Congress Party which wants to appeal to all sides. But it too is paying the price of the karma of its previous actions when it too used the politics of minority vote banks.

harimau#85:

"Dost and Mittar of Minorities"

What's wrong with that. Happy minorities make for a happy society, isn't it?

"What you are saying is that Christian missionaries can do whatever they want but if Hindu missionaries adopt the same tactics (such as educating them and providing health care), they are wrong in doing so."

You are wrong because I uphold the right of Hindu missionaries to use the same tactics as Christians. But I am not aware of Christian missionaries burning Hindu priests or their temples. So far, there has not been any proof that any Christian organization was involved in the killing of Swami Laxmanananda.

If Christian missionaries were distributing incendiary pamphlets in Karnataka, they should have been prosecuted; I am sure there is more than one law in India against such activity.

cheema ji, he he, I am not sure if my agreement would do you any good.:)

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DM ji, for once, only once, would you please discuss Islam and Muslims without bringing in Sikhism and Sikhs in the same breath? :)

If you are a Punjabi Hindu then this approach is tragic. It might be behind all the "problems" Hindus have had with Sikhs. Sikhism is NOT Islam. Its issues are not issues of Islam. Nor can its solutions be Islam's solutions.

krishna_abcd#62:

The Indian media, especially electronic, has become trash. My impression is that the Pakistani media is much more vigorous in discussing substantive issues than the Indian media.

Yes, there is need to discuss issue of conversion and the fissures it is causing in the society. I think that this would be quite therapeutic for the society.

pinku#57:

I could also add that many BJP people in Delhi have Bangladeshi muslim women as domestic help (and they would like Bangladeshis to be sent back to Bangladesh, except their maid).

The discrimination is in the police and other administrative services. It is now causing a problem in fighting terrorism; the only way to get good information about Islamic terrorism is by hiring people who are part of the muslim community and live in muslim neighbourhoods. Terrorism in Punjab was broken because the police was largely Sikh and therefore had full access to the community harbouring Sikh extremists.

Oh, I missed the theoretical rejection of the clergy. In my mind, I see a steady (although non-linear) progression of ideas from Judaism to Christianity to Islam - their perfection.

(non-linear because Christianity of the new testament seems to have absorbed some of eastern feel, which then Islam went back and rejected, and added innovations like Jihad of its own)

pinku#56:

"1. Protection of truth doesn't affect rule of law. So challanging missionaries, their ideologies will always be perfect thing to do."

Agreed, as long as it is done in a peaceful manner.

"2. Killing is not an option, nor should this be done using illiterate people. Mass movement is good but common people shouldn't merely be instigated. Tell people proper reason and then ask them to show unity but not through killings."

As I said confront ideas, or confront people through ideas, not through weapons. For weapons use age old principle, till you find they are aiming at you, don't shoot, unless you are in battle-field."

Agreed again (if I understand you correctly)

"3. Rule of law is protected by government/police or whatever. Don't decide against what you should speak or shouldn't speak based on rule of law. Decide based on truths, ideas, even less on situations."

There is no problem in agreeing with this most of the time, although most societies put some reasonable restrictions on free speech which may cause disturbance to peace and order.


"So Bajrang dal is not, so far, going to create terrorist organizations world-wide to convert people or fight the hindu-war. There is not even a remote possibility, you can not achieve that even if you employ all of your resources in your life time."

Bajrang Dal can only harm India and Indians, it cannot harm anyone outside, except maybe Hindus minorities in places like Bangladesh and Pakistan.

"RSS is not against religions, its scholls like Sarasvati shishu mandirs or Sharasvati bal mandirs do not create talibaani type people. And they enroll many muslims in schools and at all levels. Their ideology is offense against offense, not offense for spreading Hinduism. Even after so many years and with enough money they don't have a propaganda machinery to convert people, they have a machinery only to stop conversion."

I do not have any inside knowledge of what they teach in the RSS-run schools although it would be reasonable to assume that they teach the Sangh ideology. I have already acknowledged in my article that they produce good academic results.

"Most effective thing is to dis-allow proselytization, this will create a huge debate and people from other countries will also get involved, but this debate wil help society. People will get to know more about religions, politics of religions, how governments supports them or manipulate them and lot more."

Go ahead and get your parliament to ban proselytization. Most Muslim countries disallow proselytization activities aimed at their Muslim citizens and missionaries respect that ban.

Re: # 103; eklavya
[[I have been fascinated by a possibility that Islam may be essentially Judaism with two or three critical twists thrown in ]]

you are the first person (apart from myself) who has worked it out sir! ... the whole concept of "the chosen nation" is borrowed!! ... not to mention basic theology itself

Mike, are you a person of Christian descent? Do you know anything at all about Judaism?

I have been fascinated by a possibility that Islam may be essentially Judaism with two or three critical twists thrown in - arab centrism, the role of prophet muhammad, and the concept of jihad, both external and internal. Does that make any sense at all to you?

Also, does Judaism have any means of putting a closure on prophethood, either in time or space?

---------------------

DM ji

"I don't know what you are referring to and its relevance."

That's ok.

Eklavya#53:

"What can you tell us about historical allaince between Fascism and Many Islamic organizations, and the ideological basis of that alliance?"

I don't know what you are referring to and its relevance.

DM...
The Karnataka events are all political. Section of BD wanted all the pending cases against them to be withdrawn. Yeddi have not done that so far. So, all these problems. The churches are bearing the brunt. The lone Christian voice for BJP was Dr. H T Sangliana. He had voted for Congress in Parliament and thus is expelled from BJP. Now, he has no voice in BJP and is not able to handle it.....
Anyhow, Christians and Kannadigas are not at loggerhead with each other. I don't see any discontent amongst non-dalit Christians and neither the average citizen is bothered about it. Only the business leaders are disturbed about the image of India in developed country. T V Mohandas Pai and Kiran Muzumder has protested publicly and Yeddi had to get nice thrashing from the Church leadership...Poor Yeddi....Let BD concentrate on islamic terrorists better way. Karnataka is now hub of such activities....

#DM...
Agreed, BD is not supposed to take law and order in their hand...but the people, who are engaged in these events are all locals...BD have not not mobolised cadre's from different parts of India and atacked tribal christians. It is the fight between tribals...If police needs to take action, first they have to identify the people who are engaged in the riots... If small number of police is deployed, how can you identify the culprits and start taking legal action against them?....

Re: # 5
bull...
what a piece!!!!!

When BJP and RSS have become equivalent to terrorist organisations? Indian armed forces are enough for it....

Indian moslems are backward because they are moslems (so as the moslems of UK, France, Germany etc...) by nature and not due to their identity......
Most of the Govt. exams do not keep the name and other identification part of an examinee with answer paper.That part is replaced with serial number. The serial number is then matched with actual role number and name, at the time publication of result. So, answer paper checking, 2 level of scrutiny and entering the marks in the database, is done without any identification. Still, how many moslems are able to qualify for the IIT entrance etc....?

Bull, even before creation of Pakistan, Indians used to dominate in all the fields of education and culture over moslems. Brits were not discriminatory. Even now, indian institutes produces better quality professionals over Pakistani one...

Re: # 92
bull...
Just impose extortion money (like Jejya) on moslems in civilised world. May be 60% (on Income Tax) cess on moslems for sticking to 7th century arab beduinism; many of the moslems will leave arab beduinism.....
A buffalow prefers to stay in stinking water, unless it is forced by the owner....

#92 by bulleya

.....this is something i have found interesting amongst muslims.....they, rarely, if ever change their faith.....i think this is because on three inherent concepts in islam - first is that of egalatarianism; second is the direct contact between man and God (i.e. elimination of clergy); third is the abstract nature of religion.....

No wonder people call you Captain Clueless. People don't change religions (until forced either through inducements, bribes or threats) simply because it is easier to remain within the folds of the religion they were born in. In the case of Muslims, the threat of punishment for apostasy and the social stigma attached to it among the community becomes so internalized within Muslims that even when they are under no pressure to remain Muslim (like when in foreign countries), they don't venture to do it. At best, they become non-practising Muslims.

Not for any of the high-falutin "reasons" you mention.

Re: # 7
Ekal...
So what Eduation department should do? Keep the moslems alien creatures like a typical moslem should be - 7th century beduine clone!!!! Shouting in arabic in midnight to create trouble for others...not participating in local events (major state cultural events) and then allahooooooooo kabooms, in the name of isolation and discrimination.....

Re: # 91
majumder...
contd...
....and the message of peace and love is destoring tribal unity into pieces and creating all sorts of trouble...It is the tribals killing his fellow tribals just that couple of them were bribed to defame their culture....

hari...
well written...these missionaries don't preach educated people in cities about Jesus and message of love...most of christian convents ( ST. xxx schools and colleges) are populated with upper caste students...not a single nun/father will preach the students or their parents to convert....

All this nuicense is due to the ineffective development plan of GoI and state Govts.....The tribals don't know the right they enjoy under Indian Constitution or they are not in a position to exploit that....

FM Romair,

muslims.....they, rarely, if ever change their faith.....

Kaal bhai has often marvelled about this.

Regards

Re: # 88
Akcheema...
Ya man...Pakistan is very liberal society...with blashphemy laws, hudood laws and burning Danish and US flag for cartoon....

....there is, indeed, a hypocrisy-centric contradiction in any muslim supporting change of faith of other religions, while, simultaneously, not allowing muslims to change faiths.....

....having said that, i have seen hardly any desire amongst muslims to change their faith.....they could do so quite easily in countries they have migrated to - canada, usa etc. - yet they don't......

.....this is something i have found interesting amongst muslims.....they, rarely, if ever change their faith.....i think this is because on three inherent concepts in islam - first is that of egalatarianism; second is the direct contact between man and God (i.e. elimination of clergy); third is the abstract nature of religion.....

every muslim can read the quran and interpret it for him/herself, without any pressure.....granted there will always be the urstrulies of the world, who will rely on state power to enforce the majority interpretation of islam onto everyone.......however, that act itself is un-islamic.....

this is why even hamidm mian has not switched religions.....

Cheema sahib, Cool,

Actually Jesus's message of love and peace is perhaps even more relevant in places like Bajaur and Waziristan. All the missionaries in places like Kandhmal shud be encouraged to open a branch there.

Regards

Re: # 89

that point WAS made when I lived there too ... besides, read No: 86 ... the question (as phrased) has been answered

take care

AK Cheema,

The point that was being made was that there is a concept of apostacy in Islam that calls for death to those who dare to renounce Islam. Many "Staunch" muslims like for example, Urstruly have supported that punishment for that crime very passionately.

You sitting in Oz making that statement is no big deal. It would make a heck of a difference if you were a Pakistani living in Pakistan and making such a statement.

Re: # 86; harimau writes [[All of you dumb-sh!t Pakistanis who are talking about freedom of religious beliefs: Why don't you allow conversion from Islam to Christianity in your country? Why don't you write just one line in favor of that on Chowk?]]


Pakistanis should be free to choose whicehevr religion they feel comfortable with ... including the choice of converting from Islam to Christianity

.... that's perhaps MORE than the 'one-line' you asked for ... will it do?

nonsense
. hinduism is paganism and completely shares with ganas living in forests.
only dhimmified people do not consider forest ganas as different from hindu idolators

All of you dumb-sh!t Pakistanis who are talking about freedom of religious beliefs:

Why don't you allow conversion from Islam to Christianity in your country?

Why don't you write just one line in favor of that on Chowk? After all, no one is going to hunt you down and kill you. At least, not any Hindu. I am not so sure about your fellow Pakistanis.

Dost and Mittar of Minorities,

I said in my post #2 on September 27

[The problem in Khandmal is that the missionaries convert the Dalits. The Dalits lose all special reservations once they convert to Christianity or Islam. The tribals retain their reservations even if they convert.

The issue is between Dalit Chritians and the Scheduled Tribes. The ST is protesting that the converted Dalits are lying about their conversion and trying to retain the benefits of reservations and quotas. This is the cause.]

You had a mealy-mouthed response to that with your post #19

[I have no doubt that there are underlying economic factors in this area. From what I have read, converts to Christianity have had access to better education and have therefore been able to get a greater share of the reserved quota for ST/SC. Now,

You had no intention of taking back any of the utterly worthless crap you had written in this article till Maharan provided a link to a BBC report in his post #43.

The BBC report clearly states that the concerted Christian Dalits are trying to grab tribal lands and lying about their status as Christians to retain their quotas to which they are no longer entitled after conversion. It also states that Swami Lakshmanananda was educating the tribals as to their rights so that the shenanigans of the Christian Dalits and their missionary instigators do not go unchallenged. Yet, you had the gall to say "why blame Christians for providing better education to the converts? Wouldn't it be better for the Hindu organizations to provide equally good education to those who do not convert so that they have equal access to job opportunities?" The tribals, according to BBC, have reached a literacy level of 40% thanks largely to the efforts of Swami Lakshmanananda and his followers.

What you are saying is that Christian missionaries can do whatever they want but if Hindu missionaries adopt the same tactics (such as educating them and providing health care), they are wrong in doing so.

At some point, you need to weigh rushing to print with a half-baked article full of lies, distortions and innuendoes against writing a thoughtful article that discusses the fundamental causes of these riots. The former will get you plaudits from the Pak brigade; perhaps, like India's journalists, you are also more interested in tarring and feathering Hindus than in objective analysis.

"The Anti-Hindu", not normally known for a balanced viewpoint, published an article which pointed out that the Mangalore riots began after some evangelical Christians started circulating handbills in the local Kannada language describing Hindu gods and goddesses in the foulest terms. The attacks against Christians in Mangalore was a result of this. In Pakistan, if a Hindu merchant wraps some peanuts in an Urdu newspaper, all it takes is an illiterate person to claim that the paper was from the Koran for the merchant to get lynched. The same Pakistanis are crying crocodile tears over the treatment received by the Christians of Mangalore for blaspheming Hindu gods. Why don't they go to their mosque on Friday and say that Mohammed is a pedophile, if they are so much in favor of freedom of speech?

In fact, why don't you, Dost and Mittar of the Minorities, go to a mosque in Ottawa on Friday and loudly call attention to the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile? Whatch what happens before you start accusing Hindus of violence against people of other religions.

5 Posted by bulleya:

Very interesting post.

You asked the Muslim exec questions about opportunities for Muslim Indians in Indian companies. He reply did not say that they were discriminated because of being Muslims but he did say about mistrust of Muslims due to riots etc.

Can someone from India (hopefully Eklavya) enlighten me about a qualified Muslim Indian discriminated solely because of his/her religion? I am sure there is some instances of discrimination like we have in US (color, gender, religion, ethnicity etc etc).

My understanding talking with Indians is that when you take an exam, your name is not your test to avoid discrimination and it is fairly a open system (unlike US).

#80#81#82

I admit life experience is not the same for me as u .The christians converted in my city /town are low caste and i always thaught tribal look like them .munda kunda of jhrkand I dont know all the names.Sibo soren if you know politics might become C.M of JKharkand ( iam not from there )is tribal.What i meant that hindus are not very proud oof the tribals and if you noticed i narratd that on chowk all disowned sibo Sorenas 'norma' hindu If the tribal are NOT hindu what do the nay sayer have to do with there conversion .Conversion is loaded issue and not simply bribing coniving missionaries lthough some might well be.

My difficulty is understanding what is the objective ,Whatever conversion has occured wont stop .If there are no out side australians is given permit which is worst that can happen There are enough indian origin christian to do from inside .

Leave book koran bible religion philosophy sanatani anand brahmo samaj vivekanada ramkrishna diffeent sects it is too vast

79 Posted by Dinaric on
I don't have wrong knowledge, there are many good human beings in muslims but Islam is political, intolerant and relies on lies and propaganda instead of good ideas for its survival.

#79 Posted by Dinaric

Well, I do have problem with what is written in Kuran and in general the way so many muslims live more for Islam than for themselves. I don't see so many Christians or Hindus living more for Christianity or Hinduism than for themselves. This is not something good for society when you can not defend what your religion says. You can tell your kids first that your religion is purest, best and need to be protected and let them grow with that psychology and then not be able to defend what is pure, good in your religion. You want to have your cake and eat it too, but even if nobody does anything at best you will create a more pathetic society with this kind of irrationality. You confuse next generations and keep saying arbitrary things.

And that is why religions need to be diluted. Tell Hindus what in Hinduism you want to be diluted. Caste or whatever..

#77 Posted by Dinaric on
And they introduce themselves as Hindus??

I don't understand what is the point there???

A manipuri student studying with me who belong to some tribe and is an martial art expert, do I introduce him to my friends as Tribal???? I simply say he is so and so and may add this guy is expert in martial arts. Can kick the head of a 6ft guy in no time. Now if he doesn't have that expertise then I will stop with the regular introduction.

Majority of Hindus do not know who among them is tribal and who is not? You must be talking about some feudal village in some tribal area and not something general.

Can you tell caste of Hindus based on their looks??

Re: # 78
I have no problem with your diluted No egosic humble Hinduism.you have wrong knowledge impression of other (islam)
Dont mix history of muslim with theology .History of Muslim is not religion .

#76 Posted by Dinaric on

[[
Atleast you dont speake against those abrahmic ... book religion vs god and sepreate theories
]]

I do. "No book is word of God" is not audience specific. I say it a bit mildly when saying face to face but i say the exact same thing. Only precaution I take is that I don't bring-up subject on my own. But here on internet I bring it up whenever I need. So everything remains the same. Christians have more people who are detached from Christian ego, partly because they are at the fore-front of technology so they see things much before rest of us. They see and discover more truths then Hindus and Muslims, so that humbled and diluted Christianity.



[[
Yo predict aethist will be majority and i think u wil become aethist if not now
you see that way .
]]

I believe in God without any religion, but I believe in a God who doesn't need to exists:-) He is so powerful that he doesn't "need" anything. Everything works as per his needs:-) So he doesn't even need to exist separately. It is he who exists.

You don't need religious system and all other systems are much more refined then religious systems. If you love God without religion, you will feel much better under sky then in mosque or temple. You will feel much beter in natural surroundings. Religions have no good system. Not even one single one.

[[
Yes you like your smart S.T. spl those who were NONreserved .See how high a bar a tribal have to climb to be liked by u & if theydont obey u what you have to hold back your admiration of smart s.t.?Just proves that tribals have just a god brain to THINK .Its like Arjun /Laddu/u Saying some of my best friends are muslims Shah Rukh Premji or some nawab
]]

Nope, I don't like the ST who was smartest, I care for good intentions and good humans and not successful life or successful people. So most people who like me are not rich and vice versa. So you are assuming things. Brain wise it depends, I can only tell you that intelligence is not one thing, it is made of infinite types of expertise.


You see different kind of truths, you see maths, you see bilogy, you see computers and what not. Not all of them are equally easy to pursue for all of us. Intelligence is ability to discover truths, there are infinite of them and of infinite types. What is important is that no two truths conflict with each other. So a guy can understand truths about music or arts easily and can give you a theory, somebody else can understand maths, somebody else mechanics....

We all have a brain which is amazingly capable, it can reconstruct itself, it doesn't stop growing ever.


[[
I remain coginzant of your opinion. i am sure many people think you are stupid Lol
]]

Good and you can think the same, and they may be right.
You can even point out my stupidities if you don't feel frightened that i may abuse you.

I am not trying to change that opinion of yours or of others, I am trying to change some other opinions which are not that much dependent on me being stupid or wise.

So have fun and keep writing:-)

{"you never see hindu introducing to white visitors to India as 'normal' hindu Lol
]]

what is it??}


I am sorry typo shouldbe "
u never see hindu introducing tribal as 'normal' hindu ."

Re: # 74

{No I don't understand what you are syainh??? Who obliged whom in this case??? What do you mean??? I thought there was no obligation in that kind of affair??}



Atleast you dont speake against those abrahmic ... book religion vs god and sepreate theories


{What athiest??? No I believe in God but not your God most probably. And not in God who speaks in books or who works as per scriptures... Which pole of caste I am tied to? How do you know i hate tribals}



Yo predict aethist will be majority and i think u wil become aethist if not now
you see that way .
i predict ppl will need religion more b/c it solves individual life problems and besides GOD u ned system also


{Do you know what love is?? I gave a definition in some other post, somewhere... But what do you think Hindu do with tribals??? Who are tribals?? I have some ST friends, one of them came without reservation (and was among toppers, though most others were academically not so bright), but was male, I never thought of loving him}



Yes you like your smart S.T. spl those who were NONreserved .See how high a bar a tribal have to climb to be liked by u & if theydont obey u what you have to hold back your admiration of smart s.t.?Just proves that tribals have just a god brain to THINK .Its like Arjun /Laddu/u Saying some of my best friends are muslims Shah Rukh Premji or some nawab


{am not ruling over India. I am ok if you can convert all of Hindus to Christianity but not ok with your slow and gradual sale. But more than that, when you will convert in bulk we won't say that Christianiy is a superb religion so lets convert to it. We will say that though Christianity is stupid religion, let's convert to it because it will be good to fight both stupidities of Islam as well as Christianity}



I remain coginzant of your opinion. i am sure many people think you are stupid Lol

Re #74 Posted by Dinaric on

[[
.You have hindu marrying Chistians Rajiv Bedi arun to hurley u understand what i am, talking about .
]]

No I don't understand what you are syainh??? Who obliged whom in this case??? What do you mean??? I thought there was no obligation in that kind of affair??


[[Yes you pretend to be aethist but remain in totem pole of Caste .you hate the tribals lowe caste bhangis wih whom udont want to deal You want to RULE overthem and how dare the do what you dont approve of
]]

What athiest??? No I believe in God but not your God most probably. And not in God who speaks in books or who works as per scriptures... Which pole of caste I am tied to? How do you know i hate tribals??

Ha Ha:-), I want to rule over tribal??? And you?? You want to enslave them through your religion or just want to buy them and will decide later what you want to do with them??

[[
DO U REALLY LOVE tribal

]]

Do you know what love is?? I gave a definition in some other post, somewhere... But what do you think Hindu do with tribals??? Who are tribals?? I have some ST friends, one of them came without reservation (and was among toppers, though most others were academically not so bright), but was male, I never thought of loving him..

[[
You dont hate christians but why they are non obedient to you .
]]

I am not ruling over India. I am ok if you can convert all of Hindus to Christianity but not ok with your slow and gradual sale. But more than that, when you will convert in bulk we won't say that Christianiy is a superb religion so lets convert to it. We will say that though Christianity is stupid religion, let's convert to it because it will be good to fight both stupidities of Islam as well as Christianity.

[[
you never see hindu introducing to white visitors to India as 'normal' hindu Lol
]]

what is it??

Re: # 73

"This is happening for last many thousand years, the number of people who understand this is too much compared to what it was 1000 years ago. People who believe in religious idea of God will be in minority very soon as per actual numbers but their influence will remain in majority for a few more decades"

Lets say missionaries are bribing the tribal into changing there 'religion'
I believe its NOT about religion .You have hindu marrying Chistians Rajiv Bedi arun to hurley u understand what i am, talking about .Yes you pretend to be aethist but remain in totem pole of Caste .you hate the tribals lowe caste bhangis wih whom udont want to deal You want to RULE overthem and how dare the do what you dont approve of

Still these tribals are consided junglee

you never see hindu introducing to white visitors to India as 'normal' hindu Lol

The other day i complained how shibo soren of Jharkand was getting away wityh murder Every body on Chowk jumped 'but he is Tribalas 'if he is not reg hindu a non accountble .

DO U REALLY LOVE tribal

Search u r heart .

You dont hate christians but why they are non obedient to you .

#72 Posted by Dinaric on
I do not care about how many Hindus you hang for Godhra and whether it includes Modi or not. If for 2000 muslim you wil be happy after hanging 4000 hindus then do it. If you think it will help muslims in India or Arabia then you should work for it. And I do not care what BJP will have to explain or what Gujjus think about Modi or BJP.

What I care for is to use "something" as an excuse to support lies and misdeeds. So I am not in favour of propaganda for conversion, which is called proselytization. I am not in favour of so called dalits converting to either Islam or Christianity.

They can convert to Budhdhism, Sikhkhism, Jainism or whaver if they have identity problem.

And i don't accept lies from you or from bishops that you can not control hearts, which heart?? the one these missionaries buy and sell???? And who is "you"?? Me??? That is just a few thousand ruppes not even dollars. You will see many people who will invest that much money to fight for that "control" of "that kind of heart". Those guys are being sold very cheap.

You will see how these hearts and minds will be controlled very soon. You will see in your life time how hearts and minds will be controlled all over world.. Pope will beg people not to criticize Christianity not threaten them?? Same for Islam, your Mullahs will beg people not to criticize Islam.

All this depends on freeing God from religion. You just need to make people realize that God doesn't need religions and religions fool you in selling their fake Gods, while God is amaingly wonderful compared to idiotic thoughts given by these religions.

This is happening for last many thousand years, the number of people who understand this is too much compared to what it was 1000 years ago. People who believe in religious idea of God will be in minority very soon as per actual numbers but their influence will remain in majority for a few more decades.

And this is harrassment???

Living on farmland, occupying it and having criminal cases but still living freely, this all is harrassment. Or if you are poor then other people are responsible for it???


No bhai it is just good governence

.....................................................
When will the BJP learn that it cannot push this issue under the carpet forever. News channels are off air in parts of Gujarat. Thats their solution to shoot the messenger. Sooner or later it has to answer the tough questions regarding Gujarat riots and its overall communal philosophy.

We have video confessions now, which are fully admissible in court of law. What else do they need to put the men exposed in the operation behind bars"


JUST ON THAT YOU JUSTIFY HARASSMERNT WHEN FEAR OF IRE EVEN CONGRESS IS AFRAID TO GO BY TEHLKA EXPOSE


Do u believe any thing abut gujrati hindu or only Garba and Amisha Patel

#70 Posted by pinku on

"No other community, except muslims mis-use religion so much. Only muslims are capable of asking things that they themselves can not even dream to give."

So a muslim poor by his own ways will tell that it is government's responsibility to make him wealthy, same for uneducated ones, same for land/house. If their community of 10,000 living somewhere has say 10 top-level land grabbers, 15 top goons (with ak-47s), 100 small support goons (side heroes). And you say they are problem, they will say that majority is peaceful and rest who are not are because they are being persecuted???

And Police, well they can not touch them because of politicians first and second because they know they won't be able to prosecute successfully??

“Muslims figure nowhere in his model of development. You won’t find even the basic infrastructure and necessities like water, transport, road, electricity in the Muslim areas,� he said.


So first muslims will find a place to occupy, then they will do some simple crimes to make their ends meet, like thefts or some occasional murder, then they should be relased not prosecuted as they are minority.... then they should be provided houses, infrastructure at lands they have grabbed.....


and by the time you do all this, the new batch from bangladesh with ultra poor muslims will be ready....



Government needs to behave as government and police needs to behave as police to make people live like humans, they can't allow fools to rule themselves. Else soon there will be only anarchy (if it is not enough already) and only mafia and religious fanatics will rule people.

Re #67 Posted by Dinaric on

[[
Police have been searching old cases registered against any person of the community and asking them to furnish bail papers. The police targeted 33 people against whom some petty crime or a scuffle with the neighbors was registered,� said Shabnam Hashmi.
]]

And this is harrassment???

Living on farmland, occupying it and having criminal cases but still living freely, this all is harrassment. Or if you are poor then other people are responsible for it???

Ask them to convert to Christianity and ask your Christian brothers to help them.

It will be good if Indian government allow conversion between Islam and Christianity, the two religions hungry for people and land.

#65 Posted by Dinaric on
Who asked you to check with USA about what India should do???

Do you think Hindus should check with Pope to decide what they should do??

Does you pope checks with Hindus about his rules/ideas???

So the machinery of Christianity that goes and buy people need to be stopped. Don't let them go anywhere in search of converts. They have whole of Africa or may be they can go to Arab countries??? Ask them to help there, in India if they want to help anyone it shouldn't be in exchange of religion... Tell those Christian missionaries that they already have 2.2 bilion people and that 2/3rd of ultra poors leave outside of India. Further, they have better machinery outside of India then in India, so they will be able to help better there.

=====

Who has made Hindu owenr of India????

Hindu made himself owner of India, they way Arabs own Arab land, your Pope owns Vatican and your favourite Christian brothers wiped out Mayans and Red indians from South, North america and became owners of those land.


What else do you want to know???

So ask your Christian brothers to stop selling Christianity in India, ask them to help those who are already Christians world-wide. These tribal Hindus are not coming to kill their Christian brothers in US/UK or elsewhere. Ask them to help poors in afric first, lot many people to convert there??

“Convert to Hindu religion or face eviction from your land�


Submitted by Tarique on Thu, 09/18/2008 - 11:42. Indian Muslim
By Md. Ali, TwoCircles.net,

Ahmadabad: On September 17, some Forest officers and police descended on the village of Nandapeda near Ahwa in the Dangs district in Gujarat. They pulled out the doors and the windows and pulled out the timbers and wood from the roof of the huts of the villagers.

What is the crime of Nandapeda, the only Muslim-dominated village in the Dangs district? The forest department said it was illegal wood and they must recover it.

The Muslims of the village, however, said that the local administration has been pressurizing them to convert to Adivasi religion or else face their ire. They have threatened them that otherwise their lands won’t be regularized and they can be thrown out of their lands.

“The government has been pressurizing the Muslims to convert to the Hindu religion or face eviction from their land� says noted social activist Shabnam Hashmi.

Talking to TwoCircles.net journalist Abdul Hafeez Lakhani said, “It has been since last few months that they were being pressurized by the officials to change their faiths. When some of them went to complain to the police they didn’t file their complaints.�

Most of the villagers are very poor. They are farm labourers.

Because of their horrible experience during the 2002 Gujarat pogrom 125 Muslims of the village fled to Vadodra, the neighbouring district. It was only when some high level officers in Vadodra assured them of their safety that half of them returned to the village.

Against the conversion or eviction order a petition was filed in the Gujarat High Court. It was filed by some Muslims in Vadodra on behalf of the Nandapeda villagers.

In the petition filed they have alleged that on June 13 a senior government officer called a meeting in which they were instructed to convert to the Adivasi religion if at all they want the regularization of their lands otherwise they better evacuate the lands which they have been trying to regularize.

“After this meeting police and forest officers had been harassing them.

Police have been searching old cases registered against any person of the community and asking them to furnish bail papers. The police targeted 33 people against whom some petty crime or a scuffle with the neighbors was registered,� said Shabnam Hashmi.

The families have been living in the village for over 100 years.

Claiming that repeated representation before authorities for regularization of their land has been in vain, petitioners requested the court to restrain the government from pressurizing them to convert from their religion. Justice Jayant Panchal had in July sought explanation in this regard from the secretary in-charge, district collector and the village sarpanch.

After hearing all parties, Justice Anant Dave admitted the case on

September 11, 2008 and ordered to maintain status quo on the disputed land.

“On the next day the police captured approximately 80 villagers for transporting cattle into Maharashtra and also apprehended some villagers who were going on motorcycles using the reason of cow slaughter, though there were no cattle in the tempo� said Hashmi.

The villagers gathered. There was a clash between the villagers and the police. People were beaten on both the sides. One policeman was also beaten up. Police then opened fire and a number of villagers got bullet injuries. They were taken to Ahwa civil hospitals. The relatives were not allowed to meet them. Police apprehended eight villagers for beating a policeman and though a local lawyer went for their bail, it was not given.

Next day the police came and in the name of combing operation attacked and ransacked the village. Villagers were beaten up brutally including women and children. All men fled to the jungles. The police not only took away all the goods but before going they poured kerosene into the eatable good so that they could not eat anything too.

VHP proposed a rally on 15th. After a lot of pressure the VHP rally was stopped but they declared a Bandh on 16th.

The VHP has reportedly given a deadline to the collector to get the village vacated.

What happened yesterday to the villagers seems to be a step towards fulfilling the VHP demand.

Lakhani said that it is the Hindutva groups like Bajrang Dal which are at the root of the issue.

The villagers are still fearful. They don’t sleep in the nights as they fear attack from the Hindutva groups, said Lakhani.

“The villagers need urgent help and intervention. I have been personally informing various state politicians and centre about the developments� said Hashmi in a statement also sent to the National Human Rights Commission, National Commission for Minorities, political leaders and media organizations.

Asked about Chief Minister Narendra Modi’s idea of model development, Lakhani said that Modi's idea of development is an exclusive domain of the majority community.

“Muslims figure nowhere in his model of development. You won’t find even the basic infrastructure and necessities like water, transport, road, electricity in the Muslim areas,� he said.

Re: # 64
When a minority acts criminally just as rss Rss commits criminal activity They both are criminals except the RSS in inflicts in thousands .

When a minority commits crime he has 850 millions essentialy chasing condenmimg him when Rss commits crime EVEN congress feels politically hard to criticise b/c Hindu votes are muck larger and Hindus by now has demonstrated as in Babri & Gujrst

right or Wrong hindus dont like to hear any thing bad about themselves even lawlesnes

and naturally have physical as well as voting POWER to shut the hell up EVERYBODY .Lberals communist world

Let me ask you is there any ban by USA if a christian becomes ISKON I am saying that because that is the closest u can become to Hindu religion conversion There is no conversion into Hinduism although hindu themselves are justt as ignorant what and how they are different .

For other religion there mass scale conversion in USA .India can do within ts borders but how do you police MIND and heart what it believes& likes .Its riridiculous to force anything and expect it to last forever

Another thing India boast it self in the world as having sikh as P.M. sonia s chief of Congresses richest as Muslim Premix Popularar most actor Sahrukh Muslim.So India is liberal secular all of a sudden u become insecure and intolerant of Non Hindu ?

Or there is number fixed by u How Many Christians How many Christians there be

Muslims and Tibals are as much anciennt India so called Indic This is tte term to JUSTIFY killing muslims and Christians .Religious conflict world can relate to But world does not know that Hindus are out to JUSTIFY there kiling b/c Who arbitrarily become owner rof India .Who determined that after 1800 India is totally Hindu When is this Indic era start It never was there even 20 years ago

If Muslims we there 1000 years ago may be they were Hindus but converted Who are the Hindus to burn them for adopting religion Do USA burn Gora becoming Bud hist Yo gist ISKON ?

I absolutely dumbfounded who has made Hindu OWNER of India ,Religion and CITIZEN ship never is compulsorily Same . America USA Australia gives citizen ship to FOREIGN born with no historical lineage with just 8 years residence who are these RSS VHP Bajrang dal to be masters.

Except by being lawless goonda Well if there is no law then there is no law in india .
Tribal don't have arguments against them being imported
but dont be surprised the lying Malhotra of Yejo mahal Raja Ram of AIT.. Shourie of kOran can write book which IAs IPSA Ifs candidate Will Read only and act


U can have opinons .Not threats againt Liberals Communist Non hindus tribals Sikhs Jains and yes Buddhist .If every thuing within india is Indic Bharti Legitimate Equal Who are you to determine there rigts.Majority does not have to use foolish tems like Indic Muslims Christians just burn them after all 85 houses of Minorities will burn and even if they bravely fight they cant burn more than 15

Krishna,

I think its admirable that some missionaries do humanitarian acts of helping poorer people. Mother Teresa is revered in India. But certainly a question arises why hindus, jains etc when copy this model of charitable acts in remote places, are usually eliminated and labeled as fanatics. Two years back some RSS workers were shot dead in nagaland. No news about that. Similarly the bomb throwing in Krishna temple in Manipur was hardly covered.

I thought that the positive influenec of christianty and islam (by considering equality of all humans regardless of castes) was well assimilated by BJP. More than the congress and liberal folks they had the courage to actually bring people from all walks into their fold. If they used the blanket of hinduism with that, I think it was a reform over the previous traditions. No congress or liberal parties actually inititated such involvement of lower caste strata of the society the way BJP managed it.
So from the POV of Hindus wheteher you do it or not you are doomed.
Lastly, as you correctly pointed out the problem of lawlessness and the inability of the administration to ever carry out prosecutions of such perpetrators of violence is always suspect. Whether it was punjab, Godhra, Gujarat etc. But it stinks to high heaven when you note that Staines' murderers were quickly caught, tried and punished but the same action is found wanting in the Swami's case.

Adios

Re #62 Posted by krishna_abcd on
It won't anytime soon and you are right NDTV or media or even our convent educated intellectuals have little intellect or desire to deal with things honestly. They are happy to be parasites and be able to make some money out of these incidents.

dost-mittar,

There can be no doubt that no decent person can give any excuses, ifs, ors and buts about any situation where ANYONE is murdered or harmed. Nobody, NOBODY has the right to raise a finger on ANYBODY else, REGARDLESS of the provocations. For redress of grievances, there is the legal system.

Which is why I had said that each and every low-class scoundrel that killed anyone during the Gujrat riots should be hung. And if Modi is found to be guilty of aiding and betting that, BY A COURT OF LAW, then he should be the first person to be strung up. And each and every scoundrel, VHP, RSS or otherwise, who is complicit in the recent Christian murders should be dealt with in EXACTLY the same way.

So then, what is the solution to this particular problem that this article is about? I believe that the solution has to be twofold, for a lasting solution. One, the police and the government have to escalate their efforts to bring these people to justice, AND MADE AN EXAMPLE OF. This would send a strong message to other potential criminals what the consequences for their actions would be. Second, for a lasting peace, the government, and ESPECIALLY THE MEDIA (which is infested by left-wing invertebrates like Kamath, parthaab etc.) needs to focus on how these Abrahamic religions take advantage of people's poverty and other misfortunes to try and buy their souls.

Human beings are not that stupid. If someone genuinely has a change of heart and decides to change his faith, people respect that - especially in India. But the systematic and scientific way in which the Church uses its money and power to buy human souls to gain an advantage in their stupid and inexorable numbers game is at the root of much of the evil that exists in the world today.

Does this mean that the NDTVs of this world are going to focus on these issues - how the "converted" gain monetary and other advantages over their close kin who have not "converted", and who are struggling to feed their children? Are they going to highlight this diabolical scheme of cleverly and expertly manipulating helpless and destitute people to try and buy their souls? Nope. Not going to happen. The Sonia-led UPA government hands out too many awards every year to the Barkha Dutts of this world for them to do any such thing.

The depravity and the violence will unfortunately not end any time soon.

#59 Posted by Eklavya on
where do those liberals live:-), give me their address:-)

more of it

i said
[["that state won't work for Islam, it doesn't care if you are muslims or not".]]

In Pakistan almost al of them are muslims, so secularism will only be pretense, but still you can not enforce it that easily????? Why?????

Well, that is what Islam is and its values are.. and that is where conflict comes from... Only option is to dilute religions significantly... Hit people with words that "God doesn't need religion" and not with bullets... do it with hig-profile people first because they are the people who manipulate rest....

If that needs getting rid of pseudo seculars or liberals as Eklavya says, who feel that fingering religion is not that good while you can dinger everything else, then first confront them with these ideas....

pinku bhai, happiness and satisfaction are the active creations and responses of one's own mind. They are our responses to the world around us, and with sufficient institutional manoeuvering, we can all be taught to respond completely differently to the same external reality.

Would you be 'happy and satisfied' in Pakistan? Probably not, but someone we can all admire - ijaz gul - is relative happier and more satisfied in Pakistan than any liberal Hindu or Muslim is in India.

You CAN'T and MUST NEVER take responsibility for how others "feel." You can be easily taken to the cleaners by intelligent people. If liberal Hindus insist on making everyone happy, loved, wanted, and satisfied, they must do so on their own, completely on their own money and time.

We don't disrespect the state. But there is no need to respect, love, satisfy, want everyone and everything. Let liberal Hindus shoulder that burnden if they are very fond of burdens.

Later.

seems i have not yet said enough:-)

Let'e be bold and brave once againa...



What is peace? How can Pakistan and India coexist peaqcefully???

The answer is by having no conflicts. So we know once such conflict is Kashmir and it is a big one???

What we ignore is that it is not the real conflict between Pakistan and India, the real conflict is what Pakistanis very safely ignore but can be seen here on Chowk very easily.

The real issue is that Pakistan ended up as Islamic state and that it had the seeds of whatever is happening now, since its inception or much much before its inception.

The issue is that even its most educated people are as moderate as its Talibanis when it comes to tolerance. How many in Pakistan are tolerant of an idea that India is ruled by Hindus for next 100 years??? Well, ignore 5-6 people that you can find here on chowk, check rest of population their middle class itself is not that tolerant of good ideas. The poors as usual will be more tolerant of live and let live philosophy, but the semi-educated (semi doesn't mean 10th pass, BA, MA, BE, PhDs who do not know how to think properly) middle class is all for Islamic identity minus whatever you will prove to them is not something good.

So if you beat their head and prove that complete body-covering burqu is not good, they willl say okay Islamic state but not body covering burkha... then you say that only one marriage should be allowed at a time. you will find it difficult but may be they will say ok Islamic state with one marriage..... you can increase list slowly, but you are doing it with a few people at a time..... it will stil be difficult to make them agree that ok "that state won't work for Islam, it doesn't care if you are muslims or not".

It is this mentality that is there since its inception which those Pakistani in USA can safely ignore but which is very difficult to change, given the contents of Kuran and Mullaha speech.


So the first thing for Pakistan is to become a secular state.

Re #49 Posted by dost_mittar on

There is no reason for muslims to remain unhappy in India. Only people who have not lived with muslims in India can think so. Muslims in UP live as if they are majority in their own places, while Hindu never live like a majority, they live more individually.
An affluent muslim in India employs as many people as he wants and most of them hindus. And if you check with those employers most of them have their businesses run by hindu managers. Same for hindu manager, they worry about your worth as an employee not about your caste/religion. They worry about money. So at professional level hindus never create mis-trust based on their religion.

Educated muslims say in egineering, MBAs or whatever will not be able to say that they find any discrimination in India. It will be less compared to what you see elsewhere. So happiness or unhapiness of muslims in India is largely created by them only. Except for some recent global social pressure where Islam is seen as violent religion.

Again, Bulleya or others who want to find indian muslims in IT, do not see the real problem. First there are very few
pakistani muslims in IT???, so forget about indian muslims.

There are very few Indian bengalis, indian jats, indian Sikhs, north indians in IT????

Most of high tech industry in India developed in South, so the majority comes from Telgus, Tamils, Kannadians and then perhaps Maharsatra and rest of India, in that order.


I don't understand why on earth an educated muslim will feel comfortable in discussing Islam with anyone?? It is an inherently un-comfortable issue to discuss with anyone, even with Arab muslim. How can you discuss it with a Hindu??




There is no solution to Kashmir, except keeping the line of control, anything else, doesn't matter what Indian or Pakistani governments say, will create a larger social conflict that will involve all population of India and Pakistan. Involvement of Indian population is guranteed because they have 160 million muslims. Kashmir is not a political problem for people. It is political problem only for India/Pak governments and not even for Kashmiries.

The moment you separate Kashmir from India, muslims in India become un-wanted, not only that, the political scene will change drastically. Forget about clashes or riots, I am not talking about them, they are short term affairs with long term effects. The long term effect of separation of Kashmir from India will be a social condition that will make muslims unacceptable in India.

Further, as this will not be any solution, there wil be no increase in interaction as Bulleya or DM sugested. A separate Kashmir will interact with Pakistan, but everything "social" between Pakistan and India with that kind of political solution will come to halt. Don't worry these are such assumptions, rest you will see if it happens. So keep your thoughts open.

#47 Posted by dost_mittar on
I think i already gave a very long reply to this question, in my last or last to last comment.

1. Protection of truth doesn't affect rule of law. So challanging missionaries, their ideologies will always be perfect thing to do.

2. Killing is not an option, nor should this be done using illiterate people. Mass movement is good but common people shouldn't merely be instigated. Tell people proper reason and then ask them to show unity but not through killings.

As I said confront ideas, or confront people through ideas, not through weapons. For weapons use age old principle, till you find they are aiming at you, don't shoot, unless you are in battle-field.

3. Rule of law is protected by government/police or whatever. Don't decide against what you should speak or shouldn't speak based on rule of law. Decide based on truths, ideas, even less on situations.


Now the last thing, don't force on yourself or on us this "how can you allow or not alow" thing. When you say something against a organization or whatever, say whatever you feel is truth, in whatever degree you perceive. And you are already doing that. The degree is important when you discuss such things, give people enough of comparison so that they do not fool themselves. So Bajrang dal is not, so far, going to create terrorist organizations world-wide to convert people or fight the hindu-war. There is not even a remote possibility, you can not achieve that even if you employ all of your resources in your life time.

RSS is not against religions, its scholls like Sarasvati shishu mandirs or Sharasvati bal mandirs do not create talibaani type people. And they enroll many muslims in schools and at all levels. Their ideology is offense against offense, not offense for spreading Hinduism. Even after so many years and with enough money they don't have a propaganda machinery to convert people, they have a machinery only to stop conversion.

Most effective thing is to dis-allow proselytization, this will create a huge debate and people from other countries will also get involved, but this debate wil help society. People will get to know more about religions, politics of religions, how governments supports them or manipulate them and lot more.

As Eklavya says, India is the only country (now Nepal also) where rule of laws are somewhat against majority. Where government doesn't work for main religion. Even country like USA, who internally are very secular, feel forced to behave like Christian countries externally. But I consider it to be something good, externally India behaves they way a country should behave, internally they are a corrupt/divided democracy. But things will improve for sure.

clifton,

Burning down churches is most unfortunate, and to be condemned by all, without reservation. No ifs and buts about it.

But the blame for that crime lies sqaurely on the shoulders of liberal Hindus. These people have failed in their basic duty of representing the most important concerns of ordinary Hindus. Instead they have given these latter impossible targets to meet, while eating up all resources themselves, sitting in their comfortable houses.

If after every church is burnt down, you put behind bars ten most vocal liberal Hindus, and threw away the keys in the Bay of Bengal, the problem of burning churches will go away very soon.

kaal burning down churches is not a hallmark of any mainstream islamic party. Even by the low standards of humanity set by many religious islamic parties this is clearly and shockingly wrong.

It is perhaps the same ideology as the extremist religious islamic parties though i can not think of any recent example .... is that some justification?

DM ji, you are calling these Hindu organizations fascist organizations. Right?

What can you tell us about historical allaince between Fascism and Many Islamic organizations, and the ideological basis of that alliance?

Can we put that close work together against the 'appreciation' these Hindu organizations have offered to fascism, as you see it, and ideological basis of that appreciation?

Eklavya#46:

I am not calling every Hindu fascist, so why should I call every Muslim fascist?

Maharana#43:

Thanks for that BBC link. It does provide a fair background to the current situation. The tribal situation is certainly multilayered but the introduction of Bajrang Dal, not only in Orissa, but other states as well is making Christians feel insecure everywhere.

Kamath#37:

I am glad that you agree that the laws of the land must be upheld. It has taken a generation to deradicalise Sikh youth and the resentment has still not fully subsided. One wonders how long it will take to deradicalise the Muslim youth.

bulleya#35:

"...i am not sure an indian muslim feels more secure with a a pakistani.....i think he feels more secure with any muslim, when discussing an issue that involves islam......i am not sure if being a pakistani has anything to do with it..."

This is what the two nation theory was all about. This gentleman was not discussing the quran or hadis with you but the problems he was facing as a Muslim. I am not blaming this person, he is obviously smart and knows whom to trust and whom not; although I am surprised that at his level, he has not found intimate social relationship with any of his colleagues or former classmates that he could share his inner feelings with.

"......once kashmir is solved, invariably, it will lead to free flow of people and business.......pakistan will cease to be the enemy.......and indian muslims will cease to be evaluated in the context of pakistan.....their loyalties will not be doubted.....indians will see tens of thousands of pakistani muslims travelling to india and vice-versa......."

I agree to some extent with part of your above statement, but in reverse. The suspicion regarding Indian Muslims is tied to the enmity between India and Pakistan and the lowering of that enmity should reduce those suspicions; however, if a solution to Kashmir problem precedes establishment of friendly relations between the two countries, and if that solution is Kashmir's disintegration from India, that suspicion will increase and not decrease. There is no way that Hindus are going to view the loyalties of Indian Muslims as different from that of Kashmiri Muslims, regardless of the correctness of that perception.

DM ji, one has no problem with your describing Hindu organizations as you do, after you clearly state that every Muslim is a fascist. Then you can most certainly say, with reason and justice on your side, that Hindu organizations are fascism sympathizers.

------------------

dm ji, that 'rule of law' refrain is silly, and standard refrain of Islamists, since they know the law is on their side. :)

I personally do not support breaking the law, even though it is patently anti-Indic. One can only be interested in changing the mindset of Indic people, so they can apply the law better, and not let it harm them.

pinku, laddu, eklavya:

I have a simple question for you people: do you believe in the rule of law or you don't? If you don't, I have no further questions for you, but if you do, how can you let a group of people kill and destroy the properties of people who are merely doing what the law of the land says is their inalienable right?

DM ji, have you actually studied the history of fascism and its relationship with Islam?

And then put that relative to RSS's admiration of Fascism at that time?

What can you tell us all about Mussolini and Islam? :)

Eklavya#27,28:

What's wrong with calling the RSS fascist? I don't know if you are aware that during the formative years of the RSS, fascism was not considered to be a dirty word and there were a large number of admirers even in the UK and the USA of what Mussolini and Hitler had done for their countries under Fascist regimes.

romair yar, i can definitely see how a mussalman will feel insecure. when there is a riot, a bomb-blast etc, 99% of his hindu colleagues (RSS or not) will not help him and the police etc will also be less likely to be sympathetic. what if this guy IS a sleeper-cell jihadi (or a police-designated jihadi?) the hindu will get his ass dragged thru indian courts and police..who wants that?

fortunately sikhs have fared well after problems of the eighties, they have targeted specifically like indira and not resorted to train bombs and that has probably been a contributing factor, but essentially its a indic-non-indic stuff that eklavya talks of.

so once root-cause (jihad) is removed the indian mussalman may get secure but that is unfortunately not likely to happen in near future.

Dost Mittar,

One of the main reasons for this conflict happens to be a legal issue glossed over by most. You mention that the missionaries educate the converts better and hence they can avail of the reservation system. The moment you convert to xstianity u are not supposed to have any caste and hence cannot avail of the reservation quota. This is what the tribals who retain their tribal identity complain about. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Besides, an excellent and long due coverage of the problem is given here as well: Please note that it is not a religious issue alone as people have superficially assumed it to be.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7637087.stm

Adios

Re: # 35
no need to terrorize us with the thought of talibs reaching india...........first take care of you millions of m unafiqoons in pakistan who would be the first target........
we know how to f?,. these talibs and spray pigs blood on their remains

the three enemies of hindu idolators are all dervatives of abrahmic hate

1.jehadis
2.church
3.naxals
until these ideologies and their sympathesizers are eliminated hindu idolators must fight against these satanic cults of hate

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 36
the happy hindu is the biggest fraud.........

imagine when every hindu is a terror target of muslims.......
hindus need to keep the body counts and terrorism equal and same same.......

Dost Mittar:

I amlike many million others, ashamed, saddened, outraged and depressed by the behaviour of these goons or gondas of Bajrang Dal, and all variants of RSS, VHP,and political arm that is BJP when they are after the weakest part of the society, ie minorities. The bastard politicians at state and Central government are equally responsible for ignoring and not enforcing simple rule of law.

the murder and mayhem unleashed by these monstrous murderous thugs must be stopped at all costs. Remember the words of cleric Niemoller in Nazi Germany! Let me change the words here a bit.

First these murderous thugs came after Muslims, NO body complained, Then they came after Sikhs (after Mrs. Gandhi's death), then came Godhra now its after Christians. Watch out next time it will be after Jains, Parsis and any any person who remains silent. Fascist thugs and murderers are amongst us.

It is time to act and protest in any way you can- by writing and words to reject extremism,enforce rule of law everywhere. Otherwise it is matter of time India will go to dogs.

These ** bastards** of Bajrangdal are 'Hindu Talibanis' if you don't stop. They will kill all of us too.

Thanks for Dost Mittar for writing the column.

Kamath

Dost Mittar:

I amlike many million others, ashamed, saddened, outraged and depressed by the behaviour of these goons or gondas of Bajrang Dal, and all variants of RSS, VHP,and political arm that is BJP when they are after the weakest part of the society, ie minorities. The bastard politicians at state and Central government are equally responsible for ignoring and not enforcing simple rule of law.

the murder and mayhem unleashed by these monstrous murderous thugs must be stopped at all costs. Remember the words of cleric Niemoller in Nazi Germany! Let me change the words here a bit.

First these murderous thugs came after Muslims, NO body complained, Then they came after Sikhs (after Mrs. Gandhi's death), then came Godhra now its after Christians. Watch out next time it will be after Jains, Parsis and any any person who remains silent. Fascist thugs and murderers are amongst us.

It is time to act and protest in any way you can- by writing and words to reject extremism,enforce rule of law everywhere. Otherwise it is matter of time India will go to dogs.

These ** bastards** of Bajrangdal are 'Hindu Talibanis' if you don't stop. They will kill all of us too.

Thanks for Dost Mittar for writing the column.

Kamath

Romair, the "Happy Muslim" in India is a complete fraud perpetrated by liberal Hindus on the rest of us - regular Hindus and Pakistani Muslims.

There is no such bird as a Happy Muslim in India.

For Pakistanis, it is a compelling argument that once India gives Kashmir to Pakistanis, or lets it go (which is the same thing), THEN Muslims in India will become happy.

dost-mittar #: "if a successful Indian Muslim feels more secure with a Muslim from Pakistan...in India...."

...the jury is still out on this......

...i am, at the moment, involved in a crash course on south asia.....reading, travelling, interacting etc.....it has been a fascinately interesting experience....so many things taught to us turn out to be so wrong.....so many biases etc....

though, i have to say, my personal analysis, which i have been presenting on this site, for a decade regarding india-pakistan are turning out to be mostly correct....

...i am not sure an indian muslim feels more secure with a a pakistani.....i think he feels more secure with any muslim, when discussing an issue that involves islam......i am not sure if being a pakistani has anything to do with it...

it is still quite difficult to get my hands around the situation of indian muslims.......as there are so few of them in IT.....and i cannot figure out the ones i meet.....they seem very well integrated.....happy.....secure......etc......but then i get the feeling that if i just scratch the surface a bit, i might get a different story.......

"..On Kashmir, if the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of Pakistanis or even Kashmiri Muslims, it will not solve the problems of insecurity of Indian Muslims but will make it much worse....."

.....i doubt it....i think it will solve most issues.....

...first of all, the dynamics of kashmir have now changed....and i sense the indian govt. is realizing it also....pakistan's insecurities around india - centered on the kashmir conflict - have resulted in the rise of taliban politics......which if it sweeps across the indus, will, eventually reach india....

....thus, it is in india's interest to make pakistan feel secure, so that it can de-militarize one side of the border......and its military can stop feeling the needs to support non-state actors to fight india......

......once kashmir is solved, invariably, it will lead to free flow of people and business.......pakistan will cease to be the enemy.......and indian muslims will cease to be evaluated in the context of pakistan.....their loyalties will not be doubted.....indians will see tens of thousands of pakistani muslims travelling to india and vice-versa.......

it will change the complete dynamics of south asia.....i think provincial loyalties will dominate national and religious loyalties......punjabis will interact far more with each other, than with people of their own religion from other parts of their own countries.....same with bengalis and sindhis etc........

cultural and linguistic ties tend to dominate religious ties in day to day interactions.....i spend all my time with indians who can understand my language, even when i have access to so many muslims from middle east, with whom i share a religion......

so, now, i think indian govt., for its own long term interests, should solve kashmir.....india is such a huge country and it has so many potential social fissures, that if this wave of taliban reaches delhi or bombay, imagine what will happen......

mahfil khaali khaali si hai....

add following to list of conclusions you arrive after discussions..... (even if the list is empty)

Protest proselytization. Abuse any western country/ambassador or whoever supports it, ask them for open debate. Do the same for any Christian/Islamic missionary in India. Those who get convert buy them back by advertising that we will pay Rs 1000 more than the original buyer.

Important: And during buy-back of converts show your humanity/modesty by offering converts any Indic religion not just Hinduism. Do it so openly that Christian/Muslims can start feeling shame for their own business against which this has to be done.

Ref bulleya #5

Now people understand what is meant by "Satan is quoting the Scriptures".

[i think indians also need to realize this fact.....until there is open movement of people and goods etc. across all countries in south asia, this rise of militant extremism, with taliban type forces will come from afghanisan to punjab into india...and will meet the bjp and rss etc. type forces going from the other direction.....and then, who knows what will happen....]

If the results in the elimination of Islam from India, nothing better could happen.

#20 Posted by dost_mittar on
Not really it is not futile. Anything that you think is truth, is worth supporting; but we can't do it blindly. And it doesn't matter whether you have laws or not, doesn't matter if one single person favours you or not.

So asking Christians, Pope or missionaries valid questions is a valid thing, even if there is no law stopping them from doing anything. We should try to be judge of ideas and not judge of situations, and similarly we should support or reject ideas not situations. Situations may depend on lot many factors/probabilities, ideas are simpler but much more important.

So as long as your own mind thinks honestly and understand truths, you should work for them as much as possible.


All of us do it this way, we are not discussing things here on chowk because those discussions are not futile, they may be, we are doing it to understand them better, to create unity of thoughts. Or in simple words to support them.

If I have to go by law, no law will allow me to mock Islam?? You can not make such a law?? Who will allow you to make a law to mock religions??? Who will allow you to make a law to even abuse politicians???

Ideas are more impportant and powerful than laws, create and spread strong, truthful powerful ideas, laws will change sooner or later. Spread these ideas, mind doesn't confront truth only ego can, but if mind gets enough chance ego will retreat. The reason people hate to discuss a thing where they don't have argument is because they fear their own mind may win over their own ego.

Ego is part of our security mechanism, that develops on fear and inecurities, you don't want to take chance to let your mind win, because you are overly defensive, you suspect your own mind. So if you identify some place with fear, say of snakes, then even if you are told that you are wearing a suit which snake-bite can not simply penetrate, you will be frightened. Even after testing it, you may be frightened, only when you confront the snakes while wearing it, will you be able to generate enough confidence in it.

Giving proper reasons is that trial, encourage ego to participate, create that environment and then give solid reasons, ego will find it difficult to control mind.


Create awareness that proselytization is bad, argue against those who say it is good. Confront people who protect religion or pretend that you need religion between God and humans.

Ask people to understand the difference between what is right and what they can do. So there may be situations where somebody may end up killing somebody else, but just because you did it, you don't need to say that "killing is good". Try to be good, but just because you did something bad don't support bad ideas.

Understanding truths, accepting them and living them are different things. First understand them, then accept them, last part is living them. The first two create the ideological environment, the last one creates the worth of the society.

kaale khan bhai,
you are a commited islamist who understands the logic behind indian dhimmified secularism. we all understand the abrahmic
loop that sonia and her christian evangelistic coterie has put it in.

HA HA Pinku bhai, please don't bother looking into (copies of) my brain. I simply describe myself as a religious fanatic and a committed bigot. Cheers.

#27 Posted by Eklavya on
That is amazing Eklavya, do you keep two copy of your brains? Or you were a defense lawyer earlier, so always ready to defend?? no offense intended so far....


But you are right, I repeat the same thing, it is not possible to call RSS or whatever anything bad, as Islam and Christianity simply use arbitrary definition to suit themselves...

so "right" is what their religion says,
"world" is what their religion says....
the rights they have are "what their religion give them"....
the rules they need to follow are "what their religions created for them"

and they are "what their religions wants them to be"


In such a world, if you follow their rule, your only option is to become extinct irrespective of how good or bad you are...


In India, government should be forced to ban proselytization; and conversion "on your own will" should also be discouraged. Especially conversion from Indic religions to Christianity and Islam should be discouraged.
Let them convert to Indic religions if they want to. West should be confronted and told why we are not allowing these religions, bluntly.

I am ok if people cahse Christian priests and make mockery of their religion openly, on TV or whetever, but they shouldn't kill them at all. Hindus should be told that the idea of life is not to win as an ego but to win as an idea.... keep positive idea alive, killing is something that should be avoided as much as possible... (though not always)



rules of game for abrahamic religions are much worse then RSS can dare to define... (RSS still think like humans, all of those so called Hindutva-vadis think more humanly then their counter-parts in Chritianity and Islam, it will take them centuries to become equally bad)

Admittedly, that charge would appear ironic, given that you are not totally insensitive to Indic problems (and for that crime, earn your own usual share of abuse from political semitics - of being called a Hindu communalist/RSS member yourself, LOL). But DM ji, since you are not a politician who cares only for votes, nothing but anti-Indic bigotry explains your painting of Hindu organizations in such colors as you have.

DM Ji, given the current mix of our system and our people, the problems that Hindus (in fact, Indic peoples in general) have with Muslims and with Christians whose job description is to convert others to Christianity cannot be solved.

So either Indic peoples will have to change this mix of their system and their own worldview, or the situation will be changed for them in time, with much greater intercommunal violence, state or no state.

Changing the system will be chasing a fool's mirage. Indic people will have to change their own worldview with respect to other groups. While one does not mind respecting the state as designed by Hindus like Gandhi/Nehru, Indic people must and will refuse to play by the moral and logical rules of Muslims and Christian Missionaries - as they want us to in India.

Anybody who uses words like fascist and such for Hindu organizations without applying the same logic to Muslims and Christian Missionaries in general, is, IMHO, simply dishonest. Nothing but deep, learnt, and unquestioned semitic, anti-Indic religious bigotry lies behind it.

And this was not even written by a politician.

Chowk Staff:

Please try to correct format mishap in the article. The last part of the article appears in CAPS; it's not supposed to be so.
Thanks.

Maharana#17:

"Do point out if you know of any religious head of a majority community murdered with brazenness anywhere else in the developed world by suspected minority community and left without any investigation."

I did not know that the Swami's death is not being investigated. Who is opposing the investigation?

"If other organized religions have "tentacles" to carry out social service while spreading the word of God why not RSS."

The RSS or any other organization has every right to preach their religion. I fully support the right of Hindu swamis to preach their message and convert/reconvert tribals to Hinduism. In fact, I think that this competition should be good for Tribals and it would expedite improvement in their health and education.

As for subsidies to Christians and others, this is vote bank politics at its worse. In my opinion, India should be a poster child against democracy in a developing country.

laddu#13:

"It is a far milder version, almost like boy scouts, as compared to our goons."

That list was a copy and paste from Wikipedia. Yes, I know that Wikipedia is not always reliable, that is why I indicated the source. I have not included all those organizations in my article.

bulleya#5:

Your interaction with the Indian muslim proves the failure of the Indian experiment with secularism; if a successful Indian Muslim feels more secure with a Muslim from Pakistan than with his Indian colleagues, it shows that the two nation theory is well and alive in India.

On Kashmir, if the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of Pakistanis or even Kashmiri Muslims, it will not solve the problems of insecurity of Indian Muslims but will make it much worse.

nazarhayatkhan#6:

"It is a far milder version, almost like boy scouts, as compared to our goons."

There is certainly an element of boy scouts in the RSS members, they are the first to offer aid during any calamity. But if I am not mistaken, islamic religious parties were also the first to reach earthquake stricken areas in Kashmir.

Eklavya#4,10:

"You have been fair to all sides."

One tries not to let one's prejudices colour one's analysis. ;)

"You see DM ji is a secular Indian who is suspected of being an RSS sympathizer by many Muslims. Or, he is a RSS sympathizer/member suspected of being secular by many Hindus.'

Both of them could be right; otoh, both of them could be wrong. Is it necessary to put labels on everyone?

pinku#3:

It is futile to ask Christian missionaries to forget about their "mission", they are just following their job description. As long as their activities are within the provisions of India laws, no one should have any objection to what they do. If you have a problem with the law, you should ask the government to change the laws instead of asking law-abiding missionaries to stop propagating their faith.

harimau#2:

I have no doubt that there are underlying economic factors in this area. From what I have read, converts to Christianity have had access to better education and have therefore been able to get a greater share of the reserved quota for ST/SC. Now, why blame Christians for providing better education to the converts? Wouldn't it be better for the Hindu organizations to provide equally good education to those who do not convert so that they have equal access to job opportunities?

harimau#1:

The killing of Swami Lakshmananada has been condemned by everyone from Pope on down. While Bajrang Dal people have accused Christians of plotting his death, the actual responsibility has been claimed by Naxals. I do not know who the actual killers were but this did not justify an open season on all Christians. Since when have the Indians give Bajrang Dal the powers to be police, judge and executioner?

We should also remember that the attacks against Christians in Orissa have been reported since December and did not start with the assassination of the Swami.

Dear Dost Mittar,

It was a nice summary of the RSS and its beginnings. But your article's introductory paragraph put me off as a biased and a typical observation of desi media. Perhaps I have a wrong image of you as an individual who tries to remain objective consciously.
Part of what I wanted to say has been pointed out by NHK and Harimau. So no need wasting time there. But I would wish that the indian media atleast starts talking about investigating the swami's murder and displays the same disgust towards the potential perpetrators (christians in this case) as they outpoured the venom when staines was murdered. Is it possible for the GOI to award his successor some form of an award just like they did for staines wife?
We are the starnegst nation on earth who berates and ignores the native values and people as a pavolivian reaction while deifying the outsiders. Do point out if you know of any religious head of a majority community murdered with brazenness anywhere else in the developed world by suspected minority community and left without any investigation.

If other organized religions have "tentacles" to carry out social service while spreading the word of God why not RSS. I have known from various people that in times of natural disasters and riots RSS has actually done a remarkably good job in helping the affected. Granted that they are deeply ideological (just as the churches and mosques) but due to indic influenece they still are not exclusivists.

The older and established churches in India namely the catholic, syrian orthodox etc are so well assimilated in the indian society with a strong sense of indian identity and native roots that they would consider the acts of evangelicals in orissa or elsewehre as abhorable. Further, as catholic churches are like local franchises, they do not get extraordinary amount of monetary help from outside. We have such a surge of unverified funds from various churches in the world since sonia gandhi came to power that the consequences of that are emerging now. If you consider wahabi influenece and money as problematic, then consider the evangelical or pentacoastal as their ideological brothers. They will not stop at any anything. Last time I was in Thirupati (2 years back), someone handed me a pamphlet with message form christ. Thats not a problem but they should spare the sacred places of other faiths as proselytizing grounds.

Barring the older churches in india, the newer influx of evangelicals creates a similar dichotomy in the indian masses for which the muslims are derided. The evangelicals only look to jerusalem and its old culture as the true source of all values while rejecting anything indian. It has become so outlandish that YSR the CM of AP has introduced pilgrimage subsidy to jerusalem by Xstians of his state. I mean..xstians in the US also don't get subsidy but we the wisest people on earth have so many xstins in power that they can twist the law of the land to pander to their religious sentiments. If it had not been for the BJP, Ajit Jogi (evangelical Ex CM of chhatisgarh) would have used the state machinery to spread his "message". Do you know of any nation where 2.5% population of the country holds so much power?
So if RSS has small tentacles in their own country which does not discriminate with other faiths but merely seeks to uphold the mother india, I think they have as much right as the CM of AP who thinks letting 5% reservation to BC muslims (and later on to xstians as well) and allowing pilgrimage subsidy is a service to the nation. This is happening openly only because these people are aware that the most self hating people are the majority community of india.

While no fan of RSS or BJP, I had to come to their defense due to lack of a proper representation of he other side.

Adios

laddu,

"on what basis do you consider various listed small organizations as part of rss?"

dost is not saying that. He is attributing. To wikipedia website. Words starting with "The Sangh Parivar includes" ... and ending with "Bharatiya Vichara Kendra" are direct cut-and-paste except for some word changed.

There is in this list an org called "Vit Salahkar Parishad". May be Hindus need one such sorely with financial crisis of past months. May be making it a secular will attract Muslims who will then cry foul when advice is given involving any transaction not consistent with Islam. So they made it a Hindu org. Because in India secular means Islamic.

laddu, DM ji does not call these organizations part of RSS.

He calls them part of "sangh parivar," although he use thes term interchangeably with RSS.

From his pov that is sensible because RSS is the most promiment organization that rejects the semitic-Communist view of India and Indian peoples.

--------------

masana, LOL @ at your MATRIX comment. And DM ji, perturbed at being called RSS symphthizer himself, is going to ugplug us all from that virtual reality.

And who flagged masana's post? Guys, at this rate we will continue to live in that virutal reality forever.

surprising that someone has red flagged my question to harimau. what exactly is objectionable there?.

dmji

on what basis do you consider various listed small organizations as part of rss?

nice article.

seems like RSS is like the MATRIX. :-)

Harimau:

The issue is between Dalit Chritians and the Scheduled Tribes. The ST is protesting that the converted Dalits are lying about their conversion and trying to retain the benefits of reservations and quotas. This is the cause.


Do you think reservations for the so called "brain dead SC/ST/OBCs" (your favorite term) are helping in retention of folks within Hinduism ?. Do you think it is helpful now?. :-)

Laddu, as usual, you are clueless.

Bhaijan, this article is not about RSS. This is an autobiogrpahy of Dost-Mittar Sahib's generation.

You see DM ji is a secular Indian who is suspected of being an RSS sympathizer by many Muslims. Or, he is a RSS sympathizer/member suspected of being secular by many Hindus.

Either way, image is everything for this generation. So this article is about image and its projection.

And that is what fairness means to this generation.

dm ji,

this is not fair. you are repeating the usual commie propaganda.

please go through the site

www.crusadeswatch.com
if you want to get a different view and analyses of the christian evangelism in india.
hindus have nothing against christians but have alot against the church mafia.

From dictionary.com site (edited for better formatting on chowk):

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

ten·ta·cle (těn'tə-kəl) Pronunciation Key
n.

Zoology An elongated flexible unsegmented extension, as one of those surrounding the mouth or oral cavity of the squid, used for feeling, grasping, or locomotion.

Botany One of the sensitive hairs on the leaves of insectivorous plants, such as the sundew.

A similar part or extension, especially with respect to the ability to grasp or stretch: an espionage network with far-reaching tentacles.

Christian Missionaries donot have tentacles. They have what? All forgiving loving Mother Mary? Who got knocked up and then tried to hide that fact that she was cheated by a man by saying she became miraculously pregnant. Or she was raped and but was too young to understand what happened to her. Only God knows what happened to her. Who will speak for wretched of earth? Christians? Hindus? Moslems? Sikhs? Jains? Buddhists? Jews?

bulleya,

You make a good case for why although a Hindu may trust a Muslim, a Muslim can never trust a Hindu.

Who Knows the Hindu may be a member of RSS? And as DM Sahib has again so authoritatively established, even as all Muslims are convinced, RSS is an extremely evil organization bent on massacring all Muslims and keeping them enslaved, none else being anything like it.

Do you know that thanks to this objective and realistic conviction, as correctly helped and enforced by vigilant, good-hearted Hindus like Dost-Mittar ji, until recently many Muslims would not send their children to Public schools. Who knows they be too Hinduized, under some RSS affliliated teacher? And what is the basis for a Muslim to ever trust a Hindu?

You argument that Hindus should be secular and good to Muslims because Muslims can be very violent may also have some merit. We should all be good and secular to Muslims.

Farzana Versey used to make that point with tremendous effect.

Dear Dost

A very informative article.

However, why don't you look at the brighter side. Sangh Parivaar does not declare other Hindus as non-Hindus & go after them unlike our Jihadis, Lashkars, Fadayeen etc etc.

It is a far milder version, almost like boy scouts, as compared to our goons.

As for Jinnah, I wish he had admitted `I am a secular person & Pakistan will be a secular country'. Much of our present predicament is a result of this confusion.

regards

NHK

....interesting article....

.....i had an interesting discussion with a very senior young executive in an indian company, with whom i was doing a project....

....he was a muslim, and the sole muslim executive in this huge company......this is something i have seen nearly across the board in indian IT companies....there are almos no muslim executives.....interestingly, there are quite a few christian executives......even though christians are a much smaller minority in india than muslims.....

......after working with such companies, i was, slowly, coming to the conclusion that these companies offered opportunities to every indian - regardless of religion -; and that indian muslims, themselves, for various reasons did not avail these opportunitites.....the same argument that many hardcore hindu indians make.....

....after all if i, as a pakistani, was getting a chance to work with their hindu execs, without any problem, and if this guy had been able to make it as an executive, at such a young age, being a muslim, surely my line of thinking was correct.....

....so i brought this topic up with him.....

i was expecting a response along the lines i have mentioned above....however, his reply was quite shocking.....instead of praising the open-ness of the company and highlighting his own experience, he stated exactly the opposite.....

.....he started explaining to me his experiences during a big hindu-muslim riot.....how his family was under threat.....then he told me how he was unable to trust many of his closest friends, as he could not be sure whethere they were a part of organizations like RSS etc.....

it was quite a shocking discussion.....i felt like he was pouring his heart out to me.....obviously, he would not have such a discussion with his other executive colleagues - all of whom were hindus (with some christians)..........

...i was surprised to hear the above from someone who is a young rising star in the indian corporate world, with an army of hindu employees under him......more surprising that he would discuss it with me.....

based on this, i have to do some re-evaluations of my views on the situation of indian muslims.....and the inter-faith relationships in the indian society.....

...there are a lot of fissures that have started to appear in south asia, along the lines of religion.......these are now reaching the state of a perfect storm......

there is one way to defuse all this religious extremism that is coming up in south asia.....at the moment, i think in india it seems under control, because india has stronger govt. structures than pakistan.......however, if it ever comes to the surface in india, it will make what is happening in pakistan, look like a coffee party, as india is a far more multi-faith and multi-ethnic country than pakistan and sri lanka etc......

the solution is to solve all south asian geographic and political conflicts.....starting from kashmir.....i think the cost of pushing kashmir has become far higher than the cost of saving its own society for pakistan....and pakistan is slowly coming around.....

i think indians also need to realize this fact.....until there is open movement of people and goods etc. across all countries in south asia, this rise of militant extremism, with taliban type forces will come from afghanisan to punjab into india...and will meet the bjp and rss etc. type forces going from the other direction.....and then, who knows what will happen....

the long term solutions to the problems in south asia, lie with india.......as india is, by far the largest and most powerful country in the region......it is in india's interest to solve these issues; if not for the other countries, then for itself.......

Excellent write up, Dost-Mittar Sahib. Hindus need more and more rightwingers like you. You have been fair to all sides.

Somehow this conversion politics has to be discouraged. The mechanism of these conversions is bad and is promoted based on bad intentions. These christian missionaries should themselves be told that they don't need their religion as middle-man between them and God. And so they can leave their religion (forget about converting). And if they will work for conversion then they will have to prove how their understanding of god is correct. Failing which they will have to work as laborers for next 5 year. Talk this thing on TV with those high priests of Christianity, convince them that they should leave christianity and just try to understand God.


Eventually, these conversion machineries run on lies, deception and money, more like mafia and will certainly create more problems in future. Governent should ban conversions for 5 years or so, just to give rest to these machineries. People can still be allowed to convert but nobody is allowed to convince, pursuade anybody for conversion.

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Dost-Mittar writes [In Kandhmal , Orissa, following communal violence, several hundred Christians are in refugee camps and have been threatened with death if they return to their homes without “reconverting� to Hindu religion.]

But Dost and Mittar forget to write that Swami Lakshmanananda was shot dead in his ashram earlier along with several of his followers. Dost and Mittar also forget the fact that Swami Lakshmanananda was threatened with bodily harm earlier but luckily escaped assassination.

Swami Lakshmanananda's crime? Preventing future conversions by working with the tribals, advising them of their rights in terms of land ownership and access to the forests... in short, not letting the Christian missionaries exploit the illiteracy of the tribals.

Not one word has been written about the killing of Swami Lakshmanananda and his followers but entire forests are being felled to produce the paper by which Hindus are painted as the evil doers.

Whose Dost and whose Mittar are you?