Reforming Religious Fundamentalists

teshah #104 The good thing is - musharraf is out. The mullahs are out of the National Assembly. Civil society, with the Chief Justice providing an example of integrity and courage that will go down in history, has shown it is a power to be reckoned with in Pakistan. And the civilian government is going all out after the terrorists.

Re: # 103

tahmed32

103

tahmad32

Thank you dear for the kind response. I agree with you hundred percent. Musharraf and the Mullah are two sides of the same coin, i.e., the ‘munafiqat’ (hypocrisy), the difference being only in their style of progression.

I find general lack of awareness about the role of technological advancements in the field of socio-political configuration. Whereas the nuclear bomb made America the super power, the Third World’s invention of the ‘Suicide Bomber’ rendered it useless as a means of security. Similarly, the Mullah’s use of mosques fitted with a hoard of loudspeakers made him a ‘Super’ power in the field of propaganda. In fact the very use of the Holy LS (We may call it ‘Bhonpu’) is the start of sonic terrorism of the moderate type - the veritable root cause of the suicide bomber. Both Deoband’s edict and Mush’s writ failed against it. Just try to oppose it and see the result. Dr. Malik Ghulam Murtaza, an Islimic scholar of repute, who had publicly held the use of loud speaker in the mosque as ‘Harram’, was murdered soon after by an assailant who, as far as I know, remains unknown to this day.

Just imagine that, according to the media reports, the authorities in Pakistan plan to secure the Red Zone of Islamabad by building a wall all around. We had read in the English history that with the invention of the gun the English king could re-establish his writ against the rebellious war-lords by razing their forts. And now the reverse is happening. The suicide bomber has made the rulers to take refuge behind the walls. They have made Asfand Yar, leader of the NAP, so terrorized by a blast at his house that he has run away to England to save his skin.

teshah #101 excellent post. I think it will become more and more clear to people over time that terrorism in Pakistan grew because of Musharraf, not despite him.

As for the mullah - now the mullah has found the super-loudspeaker in the form of Geo TV and other TV channel where he promotes his perversion that he claims is Islam.

Re: # 101
dear teshah...i fully agree with you that we have no right to impose our values and traditions on others.
wa-e- nakaami mata -e-- karavaN jata raha
karavan ke dil se ehsas - e- ziaN jata raha
all the best
sohail

Re: # 100

Sohail

Well said dear but in my view every tradition or even a truth becomes terrorism if you try to thrust it upon others. The most common way of doing this today , as I already said, is the Holy Loudspeaker. Musharraf, who could remove and incarcerate the Chief Justice of Pakistan so easily, had rightly tried to silence it but failed miserably.

Re: # 99
dear hexilite...in my humble opinion there are as many truths as human beings and as many realities as pairs of eyes in the world. some human beings follow a religious tradition, some a spiritual tradition and some a secular tradition. i think there are many right paths not just one right path.
i am curious which path do you follow? sincerely sohail

Salam.........
I suggest we all should act like a Human and use our brain...
and not to confuse ourselves..
study and research our History and Religion..
To get on the right path

#97 Posted by ijaz_gul on October 6, 2008 7:01:41 am

Let me run that through a paki-to-english translator

Step One: Stop the war of hate.


surrender already..


Step Two: Engagement through political economy.


give us money...preferential treatment for our exports..


Step Three: Broad Based Representation in Afghanistan.


Let our toadies take control of pakistan..when we say broad based, we would like you to forget that our taliban toadies, when they took over afghanistan, weren't elected by the afghans..


you're welcome..

Re: # 94
Your answer is academic and applies to a distant future. All Private Schools and missionary schools are doing it.

How do you brainwash a finished product especially when they run in thousands and increase by scores daily due to hate war of USA?

Step One: Stop the war of hate.
Step Two: Engagement through political economy.
Step Three: Broad Based Representation in Afghanistan.
Parallel Steps: Religious leaders have to become more pro active in de-indoctrination of such cadres, while the state provides protection to citizens.

In my view the 'root cause' for fundamentalism and extremism is the 'Holy Loudspeaker' with its sonic terrorism. I am sure if we invent a remote control to mute all HLS' the fundamentalism, leading to extremism and terrorism will automatically wither away.

#94 Posted by drsohail on


In short if kids or society is taught to respect "truths" they will chose a right path according to their intellect. Intellect itself gets refined by education, by age, by so many different means, so once you ensure they respect "truth" they will refine their idea of truth and follow a good path over their life.


The simplest reason why a truth known to your mind should not be ignored is because "ignoring truth" is "ignoring reality" and living in illusion. So if you ignore truths you lose the essence of life.

Re: # 93
dear ijaz gul...you and i are on the same page. in my opinion fundamentalist thinking and violent consciusness is part of religious and cultural conditioning. to successfully deal with it we need a wide range of actions with serious planning. it has to start from schools where children are encouraged to develop
...critical thinking rather than blind faith
...secular attitude and respect other philosophies and ideologies
and
...a compassionate heart so that they have empathy for the whole humanity and can see that our enemies are our distant cousins
alongside education obviously socio-economic and political factors play a major role.
if you are interested in detailed answer you can write to me privately ...my email address
welcome@drsohail.com
and i will send you an article titled
from fundamentalism to humanism
that i presented at humanist association of canada conference this year
you might find it interesting
i am more in favour of peaceful education and evolution than bloody and violent revolution
sincerely
sohail

Re: # 54
Thanks Sohail for taking time out to think about my question and coming out with the answer I was looking for.
Taliban like the Christian Knights of crusades and Jannisars of Ayubi are indoctrinated and motivated to ignore death, and rather embrace it for a next higher(rather Highest) form. Even if 10% of all militants in Afghanistan /Pakistan are these romantic revolutionaries, then the world is in for a very difficult time. Most of them are nomadic, transcend international boundaries and see only in Black and White. European Modernity Model(not modernization)to them is satanic as is everything that diverges even a stifle from what they believe in. Some of them believe that the collateral damage of innocents is in fact a blessing of Allah, as they go straight to paradise. Their training and application levels are so robust that despite being riddled with bullets, they still have the resilience to pull the cord for self detonation.
All said and done, how do you deal with this?

#84 Posted by ana

[Why do Indians go to "Indian" restaurants that are run by "Pakis???"]

I avoid anything that has anything to do with the ummah, unless I absolutely have to. I mean, why enrich the enemy. In this instance, I was fooled by the Indian restaurant sign. And it was too late (and too late in the evening) to back out and go to some other Indian restaurant.

laddu,

You are spot on about this "trying to feed beef to hindus" business. As I have mentioned on Chowk before, a colleague's wife once tried to feed my parents beef after inviting us to dinner, without telling us. She was from India and knew we are Brahmins, and knew exactly what she was doing. Later on, I found out that she was the more religious of the two and highly communal. Also, early in my career, once I was chatting with a Muslim acquaintance who was from UP - he was gleefully recounting how Indian Hindus will eat beef, "but we Muslims will never touch pork - hee hee hee..". This was long before I ever used to even think about these Hindu-Muslim issues. Like most Hindus, we never talked about Muslim-related issues in our family, at work, or with our friends. But looking back, I remember that almost ALL the Muslims I have come across in my life were walking around with big chips on their shoulders.

Of course there are lots of liberal Muslims - but they are the exception, and don't count anyway - it's the masses that affect politics and everything else.

is now shifting

The US is at it again. Al Qaeda central is not shifting from Iraq to Afghanistan:

Meanwhile, U. S. intelligence reports the country is being flooded with foreign fighters. Chechens, Uzbeks, Saudis, Iraqis and Europeans are all rushing to fight in Afghanistan via Pakistan. According to intelligence estimates, there are more foreign fighters in Afghanistan now than in Iraq.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=859844

Dr. Sohail, it was a pathetic attempt at censorship. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Have a nice day, and ban me again for this comment,

Gracefully,

TNI Masadi

I differ from the under posted's point that "Traditionally, Pakistani generals like Kayani worry more about India than the Taliban..."

More so than India they worry about protecting their own turf, in other words they don't want to lose their hold on the country.

Pakistan: Will it be Bush's third war?
Once an ally and now a foreign policy blunder, nation is becoming area of operations
By ANDREW J. BACEVICH Los Angeles Times
Oct. 4, 2008, 10:37AM


President Bush will leave office without concluding either of the two wars he initiated after Sept. 11, 2001. Now, in the waning months of his administration, the president seems intent on expanding his "global war on terror" still farther. To the existing fronts in Afghanistan and Iraq, he is adding a third: Pakistan.

Eclipsed perhaps only by Iraq, Pakistan ranks in the very top tier of the Bush administration's foreign policy blunders. Even as it vowed after 9/11 never to compromise with evil, the administration wasted no time in forging an alliance with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, the army general who seized power in 1999 through a military coup. Although Musharraf was anything but a democrat, Bush proclaimed him a close friend and ally. Washington quickly began funneling military and economic aid toward Islamabad, the total since 2001 exceeding $13 billion.

Unfortunately, Musharraf was not only a dictator but was also incompetent. Two themes defined his presidency: a gradual erosion of domestic legitimacy that paralyzed and then doomed his regime, and a steady erosion of Pakistan's already shaky control over its frontier provinces bordering Afghanistan. For Taliban and al-Qaida fighters ousted from their Afghan sanctuaries, the Pakistani Northwest Frontier became a refuge in which to establish training camps and support areas. Although U.S. civilian and military officials pushed and prodded Musharraf to crack down on this Taliban and al-Qaida presence, little effective action resulted.

As measured by return on investment, Musharraf turned out to be a lousy bet. By the spring of this year, with Musharraf's days obviously numbered, the Bush administration abandoned its friend and ally. In doing so, it found itself without a policy as far as Pakistan was concerned.

To fill the void, Bush turned to the Pentagon. Nearly seven years into the Afghan war and five years into the Iraq war, Pakistan has become the next problem that the president intends to solve through the application of armed force. Without congressional authorization and almost entirely shielded from public view, a new war has begun.

Rather than a partner, Pakistan is becoming an area of operations. Even as Washington denounces Russia for violating Georgian sovereignty, U.S. violations of Pakistani sovereignty have become routine. The most commonly employed tactic relies on missile-firing drones to patrol Pakistani airspace and attack suspected al-Qaida or Taliban militants. Yet there is also evidence of a growing willingness to put boots on the ground. On Sept. 3, in a widely reported incident, U.S. special operations troops raided a village in South Waziristan, leaving a dozen or more Pakistanis dead.

The Bush administration seemingly has concluded that Pakistan poses the primary obstacle to success in Afghanistan. As long as jihadists can freely infiltrate across the border shared by those two countries, the thinking goes, victory in the Afghan war will remain elusive.

"We can hunt down and kill extremists as they cross over the border from Pakistan," Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently remarked. "But until we ... eliminate the safe havens from which they operate, the enemy will only keep coming."

Will raids, however vigorously executed, clean out the Taliban and al-Qaida havens? Not a chance. At best, they will keep jihadists off-balance. In the meantime, as U.S. operations inevitably produce a stream of noncombatant casualties, they will exacerbate anti-Americanism in Pakistan. As the recent bombing of the Marriott hotel in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital, reminds us, one unintended consequence might be to jeopardize Pakistan's already precarious stability.

The real aim of these raids is to goad Pakistan's senior military leadership into action. Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, the chief of the Pakistani army, has declared categorically that "the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country will be defended at all cost." Kayani also insists that "no external force is allowed to conduct operations inside Pakistan." Each time an American aircraft enters Pakistani airspace and fires on some Pakistani village, Kayani is made to look a fool.

The problem with this strategy of goading is twofold.

First, U.S. expectations probably exceed Pakistani capabilities: Pakistan's army is large but not notably effective, especially as a counterinsurgent force.

Second, Pakistani national security priorities differ from our own. Traditionally, Pakistani generals like Kayani worry more about India than the Taliban. In short, when it comes to doing our bidding, Pakistan's army can't and won't.

Rather than prodding Pakistan to act, the Pentagon over the next several months could again find itself starting something that it cannot finish. In that event, Bush will bestow on his successor an exceedingly unwelcome surprise.

Bacevich is a professor of history and international relations at Boston University and the author of, most recently, "The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism."

--

Testing, has the ban been removed?

one could go to the least inhabited place on earth but rest assured there'd be an Indian and a Chinese take away there! ... its almost as if when the colonials were leaving the Indians asked them where they were going and what they were going to eat back home .... and tagged along! ... sweet revenge!

Why do Indians go to "Indian" restaurants that are run by "Pakis???" Aqal baRi ke bhaiNs? Abey, if you hate "Pakis" so much then go to Indian restaurants run by your own kind. It's easy to find out within minutes of being there who runs the a restaurant.

There are worse things happening in this world, and you're going on about food. . . idiots!!!!

Re: # 82; Laddu bhai

... of course they know! .. in fact I always use goat meat; beef has always been upon their insistence!! ... maybe they are as much hindu as I am muslim!

Re: # 81

cheema ji,

If you have the courtesy please inform the hindus that haleem contains beef- a lot of hindus do not know that.

I am sure to inform my momeen friends that the kebabs cooked at my place do not contain halal meat.......

if it helps anyone's case here, today I am cooking haleem ... with lots of beef!! some of my hindoo friends are popping over, along with a few whities/pakies .. the lot! and as far I can tell (from past experiences of feeding these rascals) ... they rather like it! ... I'd like to take credit (for my cooking of course) but I am inclined to think it is the beef!

"rabb ka shuker adaa ker bhai;
jis nai hamaari gaye banaai" !!

laddu:

did ajeya say it was haleem?

I was the one who suggested it might be haleem. It could have been something else.

If you are going to take it to this level, you have got to be one of the most deluded people.

Ajeya,

You must press charges against that man who tried to feed you haleem.

Let it become an international issue so that these PAki restaurants can be exposed.

Ajeya ,

You know we Punjabi hindus know these rascals very well...that is why we prefer chicken because one cannot pass off beef for chicken......which can be easily done in kebabs or haleem........

yeah laddu, everything we do is a conspiracy against hindus even in "paki restaurants."

you are such a sick and sad prick.

Re: # 73

my suspicions are confirmed.......that Islami rascal was trying to feed you beef halim knowing very well that you were a hindu ordering for vegetarian.

You should send the food inspectors .

You must prosecute one of these rascals .

You must call the police and register a case.

ajeya,

never eat in a PAki restaunt......they mix beef with their keema and even vegetables on purpose so that they can defile hindus.

these are Islamically sick minds.......

#71 Posted by ana on October 4, 2008 7:08:25 pm

heck no..i don't believe in that BS..

oh, it was ajeya. i should have known.

and what you threw away sounds a little like haleem.

#67 Posted by hamidm2

[sometimes i feel like correcting her and telling her that it was morarji desai and not gandhi, but then she might think i am an indian and that would be a fate worse than death ........ so, i just tell her i am a paki and that 'we' are not like those weird people on the wrong side of the border .......]

That's right, that's a clever strategy. Pakis are looked up up to around the globe, especially in the West. Especially during the body cavity searches. Americans do look up to Arabs and Pakis - popularly known as "sand niggers" and "diaper heads" respectively. A clever strategy only a Paki can think up.

Actually I wanted to ask some Paki - why is it that Pakis call their restaurants Indian restaurants? And Indians always want to disassociate themselves from any and all things Paki?

The other day I went to a Paki restaurant and ordered some takeout. For the veg dish they handed me what looked like some sort of meat keema with faint traces of greenish vegetables floating around - eeew!! (which I threw away the minute I got out of the store). Do you guys also brush your teeth with meat keema? Ugh! What a wretched existence!

acha redflaggers don't have hamid's sick sense of humor. koi baat nahiN. :)

arjun, did you redflag hamid's post?

#65 Posted by _arjun28

[Surely you're not implying that he's wrong when he blames an old fart......]

By the way, how's your father doing? Is that old fart still kicking around?

hamid no. 2

LOL the funniest thing I've read on Chowk today next to, next to, arjun's nonsense! :)

ThatKs right Hamidm, you go...you Paki you. :ow long before the word Paki becomes a curse word here, like in the UK? Time to eat ur vegetables son! :)

Re: # 66

arjun mian,

.... all this doesn't matter, if yasser mian says it is gandhi's fault, then it must be so ...... look, any man who looks like that has to be guilty of something .....

...... maybe the fundamentalist are behaving the way they are because they do not want to be confused with that man ...maybe these suicide bombers want to kill themselves because they can't bear the thought that they might have come from the same gene pool as that pathetic looking creature ...... look, as reasonable as i try to be, i still have a morbid fear of cucumbers and cauliflower and other vegetables .... why? .... i think deep down we all resent the disgrace brought upon us by that half naked vagabond - i live in dread of being mistaken for a gandhi loving indian ..... i really resent it when the bleached blonde floozie at work asks me if the urine therapy recommended by gandhi ji really works .... sometimes i feel like correcting her and telling her that it was morarji desai and not gandhi, but then she might think i am an indian and that would be a fate worse than death ........ so, i just tell her i am a paki and that 'we' are not like those weird people on the wrong side of the border .......

... so yasser mian is right - gandhi ji is responsible for our predicament ......... maybe dr sohail can give you a more scientific explanation for this phenomenon .... now go and write some code, or whatever it is that you do when you have a date with yourself on a saturday night ....

gandhi's fault...


How unstable is Pakistan today? Some measure of it has been provided by the Marriott Hotel blast and the attempted killing of the ANP leader Mr Asfandyar Wali. Pakistan’s press is faithfully recording the process of “Talibanisation� of the country’s capital where no one is safe. An article has described how Sector G-11 of Islamabad has overnight sprouted four mosques within a square of 500 yards in its centre. In the I-10 sector, a public park has been trespassed by a madrassa which has grown from a one-room affair to a multi-storeyed institution. The mosque administration has told the citizens that no permission was required for building a mosque. Islamabad sprouted 43 illegal mosques in 2007, while by official reckoning, the legal mosques in the city are sufficient to cater to the population. There are 80 madrassas already in existence there.

Scared of what might happen to them, foreign sportsmen don’t come to Pakistan any more. The latest blow to Pakistan’s prestige is the refusal of a girls’ cricket team from the West Indies to tour Pakistan because of the fear of getting caught up in an Al Qaeda strike. Foreign businessmen have stopped coming to Pakistan, many have cancelled their orders for Pakistani exports, and Pakistan’s own investments in the manufacturing sector have not only ceased but a lot of Pakistani capital is fleeing from the country through “dollarisation�. It is this state of affairs that causes the world to think about the fate of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons and, ironically, this is also a major reason why the “Friends of Pakistan� must come forward to its help.

#64 Posted by hamidm2 on October 4, 2008 12:32:36 pm


... i think yasser mian means something else


HE said gandhi was responsible for the current "situation" in pakiland....

Surely you're not implying that he's wrong when he blames an old fart who died more than 50 years ago for the problems in pakiland today..

Re: # 62

arjun mian,

... i think yasser mian means something else ..... since he is the resident expert on the shennigans of that half naked beggar, you should pay close atttention to what he is saying ..... you horrible hindoos have made an industry out of selling that pathetic creature to the west, but we pakis know better ...... we will buy bollywood filums and betelnut leaves from khatris and banias, but we will not buy gandhiji or heeng .......

Now i'm really confused...to hear manto tell it, you'd think that the pakiwhackers were coming in because of gandhi...

Pakistani Intelligence Says U.S. Strike Kills 21 Insurgents

By Shaiq Hussain
Special to The Washington Post
Saturday, October 4, 2008; A14

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Oct. 3 -- Suspected U.S. missile strikes killed 24 people in Pakistan's restive tribal region on Friday, Pakistani intelligence officials said.

Of those killed, 21 were insurgents, including 16 Arabs and five local Taliban fighters, one of the officials said. In addition, he said, two women and a child were killed.

#61 Posted by hamidm2 on October 4, 2008 12:05:41 pm


since when did we start putting pictures of half naked men on our walls and currency !?


wait a minute....you're saying that you DON'T have pictures of gandhi on your currency? how the heck can that be? manto says your current predicament is because of gandhi...

something doesn't compute...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#51 Posted by MantoLives on October 4, 2008 6:35:43 am


After all from what you tell me India is doing well despite having the casteist fascist on its walls and currency.


Make up your mind..

either pakiland is in the fucked up state it is in because it has pictures of gandhi on the walls of it's government offices and on it's currency...

or..pakiland is in a fucked up state, not because of some fart who died a long time ago in a neighboring country, but because your country chose the path of islamic extremism...

LOL, hamidm, laddu is going to be disappointed. He has been looking forward to sundry 'Munafiquoon' saving him from idol breakers. :)

Here is another 'Munafique' learning about his religion the heard way and begging for mercy. :)
-------------------

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.asp x?id=63ae78d3-e12d-4bdb-9c76-45103f190568

Bitter ladoo for Muslim Ganesh fan

Ashok Das, Hindustan Times
Hyderabad, September 23, 2008
First Published: 23:32 IST(23/9/2008)
Last Updated: 23:33 IST(23/9/2008)

A carpenter had to apologise to his community leaders to be “re-admitted� to his faith from which he was “excommunicated� for participating in an auction for a ladoo during the Ganesh Utsav.

Mohammed Yusuf, who lives in Borabanda locality of Hyderabad, has been participating in the Ganesh Utsav for years with his friends and co-workers. This year, he wanted to make a contribution for the Ganesh Puja.

During an open auction for the ladoo held in the hand of an idol of Ganesha, he outbid his rivals by paying Rs 12,000 for the sweetmeat. The money collected through auction goes to the Ganesh Utsav fund.

The Radhakrishna Ganesh Utsav Samiti, the organisers of the puja in Borabanda, felicitated Yusuf, presenting him with a garland and shawl. Next day, the city paper of a local daily carried his picture with a small write-up on the auction.

It didn't go down well with the local members of the community. A meeting was called and Yusuf excommunicated—they used the word kharij. He was told that he was no more a Muslim and should move out of the locality with his family.

Yusuf, who is the only earning member of the family, called on community elders and begged for mercy. He was “accepted� back in the fold after he read the Kalma several times.

“I did not know that my action was shirk (prohibited) in Islam. I purchased the ladoo in the auction as it is said to bestow one with good fortune. I decided to follow elders' advise and put an end to the controversy, " Yusuf said.

“It is not permissible in Islam. He should not have done that. Now that he has accepted his mistake, we have taken him back in the community,� a community elder, Yakub, said.

.......... after reading this story, i have decided that you can go ahead and bury me even though i am scared to death of being buried alive !

.... damn! these fundamentalists are scary and they win again ........

p.s. apologies to my hindoo friends who were planning a big party at my cremation

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/nyregion/04cremate.html

Re: # 56; hamidm

"hukm-e-haakim marg-e mufajaat" sir!

Re: # 55

dr cheema sahib,

..... please stay tuned ......... we might need your help if dr sohail sahib recommends a full frontal lobotomy ..... i assume you are qualified to perform this procedure

Re: # 53; hamidm sahib

I am only a humble surgeon and I tend to agree with your analysis ... we'll await Dr Sohail's specialist opinion on the matter for sure

Re: # 44
dear ijaz gul..i have been thinking about your question without coming up with a satisfactory answer. i think we are dealing with many groups
...those who are idealists and romantic with big dreams and high ideals
...those who are ideologues and are blindly committed to an ideology of the right or the left
....those who are willing to give their lives for their ideology
...those who are willing to take other people's lives to implement their ideology....whether communism or islam...all over the world
it is the last group that becomes threat to local, national and international peace
In my book
Prophets of Violence, Prophets of Peace
I have analyzed these groups from a psychological perspective.
I think reading biographies of revolutionaries give us great insights in their personality, philosophy and politics.
sincerely
sohail

dr sohail sahib,

.... forget about reforming taliban an other bearded whackos for a minute and let us focus on masadi's sad condition ....... in your professional opinion does he suffer from paranoia, schizophrenia, low self esteem, male impotence or just plian old stupidity ?....... as a lay person, i would say 'all of the above' but then, what do you know .........

..... he is a tortured soul who thinks that the us elite aided and abetted by the chowk staff and tahmed are out to get him .... now, we all know that tahmed is a scoundrel but i doubt he is out to ruin mad masadi .... the chowk staff can be accused of incompetence, but i don't think they would bother with a pisoo (flea, or is it gnat?) like masadi ............ that leaves the 'us elite', which has bigger things like the wall street crisis and the sarah palin to worry about ......... please help masadi

thank you

Re: # 46
dear friends..in spite of my philosophical differences with masadi sahib i never flaged his comments and never asked editors not to publish his articles. it is between him and chowk staff. i believe in a mutually respectful dialogue on chowk. i just ignore those comments that are disrespectful....sincerely sohail

Arjun198,

Sometimes the picture on the wall is for show not the reality.

After all from what you tell me India is doing well despite having the casteist fascist on its walls and currency.

#48 Posted by MantoLives on October 4, 2008 4:03:53 am

so what you're saying is that if pakis stop revering gandhi and stop calling him the father of their nation, pakiland will no longer be seen as ground zero for islamic terrorism?

sounds like a plan to me...go ahead and start....burn all copies of gandhi's' book...remove his photos from the walls of your government offices..

that'll fix the whole islamic terrorism problem..

Re: # 47

Cheema ji,

Hamidm was a murtid but now appears to be subdued by the terror of the Jehadis......

I think he is a munafique because though he would not like to miss the 72 big eyed ones promised by the formless Allha but he does not want to keep all the rozas and hates bending 5 times a day ( once a week suits him).

But , if all the momeens turn into munafiques like him then sanity would prevail.......

In order to reform religious fundamentalists, South Asia must atone for Gandhi, the subcontinent's first real terrorist and a fascist to the core, who was the worst thing to be unleashed on this subcontinent.

Half naked fakir hindu fascist bigot Gandhi is the subcontinent's original sin. The subcontinent's greatest misfortune was that Gandhi walked on it in all his ugliness on public view and it might just be our greatest fortune if none like him was to walk on this dharti again.

Re: # 45; Laddu

why do you call him "munafiqoon"? that means a hypocrite (actually it is the plural of 'munafiq') ... is that what YOU mean by it?

This is to bring to your notice that Masadi sahib has again been banned by chowk for what he considers unjustifed reason, he wishes to express his protest here.

Dr sohail has got me banned for making a quite benign post on there. He is also responsible for censoring my articles. My comments to HP were much harsher but they were not cut or censored but as soon as I say something to Dr.sohail the (deleted) shrink, i get banned! Please let friends know on that thread

Masadi

Regards

Re: # 34

hamidm,

there are perhaps more yoga-studios than mosques in US - you under estimate the counter movements towards sanity......

remember, the more muslims become "munafiqoons" the more we have achieved our goals towards sanity.....

Sohail,
You have not answered my question at #36

Re: # 42
dear akcheema...this article is about those religious fundamentalits who said goodbye to violence and ambraced peace. the question is how are they different than those who continue their violent religious fundamentalist acts all their lives. from a psychological point of view i am curious about different factors that contribute to this transformation. for me it is similar to studying those 10% of alcoholics who join AA, receive therapy and remain sober for the rest of their lives. people with personality problems who indulge in violence may not suffer from schizophrenia but still have serious emotional problems and we need to study them seriously.
to understand religious fundamentalists social, economic, cultural, religious and political factors are as important as psychological factors.
thanks for the reference. i printed it out and i will read it on the weekend
sincetrely sohail

DrSohail sahib,

exactly what are you planning to 'reform' here .... we are NOT dealing with people with any known psychiatric illnesses ... their actions are based on culturally/religiously held 'beliefs' and well within the definition of sanity no matter which angle you look it from.

fyi:

http://www.bintjbeil.com/articles/en/011119_hassan.html

Re: # 40
Dear nycoolest..thank you for your wise comments. i agree with you that we need to educate masses to change their tribal thinking. and it can be done better by education and evolution rather than a bloody revolution. i did not understand what you wrote...buying out all the local mullahs...what did you mean by that?
sincerely
sohail

Dr. Sahib, it is indeed a very thought provoiking article.
Pakistan and America has to pose like they are the winning horse in the reigon to have divide and rule strategies in place for breaking the resistance's back. It was used by Brits in past then recently it is being used in Iraq by Americans. The current actions of Pak Army/Government finally seems to be in right direction when they are powering up locals to fight against Talibans.. kinda like beatin Talibs by their own gagme and trusting locals. The growing success figures in Sawat and Bajaur Agency is a good sign. These tactics must continue with care, rather blindly bombing the area. American (foreign) intervention has to stop cause this cant solve anything and it can be done by usin PAF effectively. After some trust build up the next step should be to quietly replace/remove or buy out all the local mullahs (the main source of hate propogation) to change the collective mindset of Tribal society. It would take years to clean the years of mess up in the reigon.

dr sahib, since there is no "one" interpretation of scripture..no singular mandated stance by a leadership ala catholicism...the only way to do it..is to strike out those passages that are used by terrorists to a) conduct terrorist activities and b) use religion for their thuggery to silence opposition even within the moderate elements within their co-religionists.

Re: # 37
dear create alpha...and how would you reform religion?...
in my humble opinion we do it by teaching people that there are metaphorocal interpretations to scriptures alongside literal interpretations. mohammad iqbal in his book
reconstruction of religious thought in islam wrote
heaven and hell are states not places
and
story of adam and eve is the story of every man and woman
by teaching science, psychology, philosophy and fine arts we help people transform their ideology and personality and when followers of a religion transform...their religion transforms as well.
sincerely
sohail

"Reforming RELIGIOUS Fundamentalism" would require reforming the RELIGION not more arts and crafts

Sohail,
I wish you could elaborate on the aspect of 'Romantic Revolutionaries'. In mlitary Sociology we can also call them sar Ba kafak (Coffin on the head). In my view they are romantics.

Re: # 34 dear hamidm2..i hope you never underestimate fine arts and its potential to transform human hearts. in my opinion violent religious fundamentalists are the people who lack
critical thinking
creative imagination
and
peace consciousness
when they are in jail you can ignore them or execute them but some counselors work with them and get to know them as human beings and try to engage them in a creative compassionate dialogue. I have worked in forensic psychiatry and visited jails and dealt with murderers. Therapists try many things that people outside the jails and psychiatric hospitals find strange and funny. Don't you agree that if we had more classes of fine arts and critical thinking in schools we could have prevented many religious fundamentalists.
sincerely sohail
ps....maybe teaching sense of humour might be as effective as art classes because i rarely saw fundamentalists laugh and joke around. you have a good sense of humour

dr sohail sahib,

..... this is the funniest article that i did not read on chowk ! please don't be offended, i don't read most of the articles past the first paragraph because, being a clairvoyant, i can tell exactly what is in it ......

..... anyway, i was going to suggest art classes for the talibs but it seems somone has already recommended that ..... i am surprised some of our hindoo friends have not recommended yoga, meditation and levitation .... i would also suggest looking into tai-chi, whirling and hypnosis ..... personally, i think we should focus on chinese style re-education, and if that doesn't work we should brand them as apostates and hand them over to the saudis

..... but, you are a very funny man!

I envy Dr. Sohail’s zeal and enthusiasm for promoting peace in the world. We may differ from what he writes, in several details, but his message is beyond criticism and controversy.

He asks, “Can militant religious fundamentalists be reformed?� I think they can.

Firstly, these fundamentalists are engaged in a self-defeating struggle when they try to impose their brand of fundamentalism (Taliban type) by violent means on the peaceful Muslim brethren. Time can not be revered by 15 centuries. Their basic tenets are rejected by a majority of the Muslim population. Although they can and are creating a lot of chaos in peaceful communities, they can not drive them back into ignorance, illiteracy and intellectual backwardness.

Secondly, there are silent, unselfish and peaceful undercurrents unleashed by humanitarian reformers to promote education among the remotest parts of Pakistan where no schools existed ever. One of such dedicated reformer is Greg Mortenson. What he has done and is busy doing in the remotest and not-easily-accessible parts of Baltistan is unprecedented in our recent history.

I had heard about his book, Three Cups of Tea, from a friend but hadn’t mustered sufficient will to get it to read. Then I heard about this book on TV and kept hearing about it every now and then. One day finally I sat down to start a search for this book in the area libraries. Copies of this book were there in every library but were checked out and there was invariably a long waiting list in all of them. I put down my name in the waiting list. I was lucky to borrow this book in a couple of weeks..

I read the book from cover to cover and was impressed by the single-mindedness and devotion of Mortenson to the cause of children’s education in the far flung areas which are very poor and form the catchment of the Taliban madrassas. Mortenson’s aim is not to reducing terrorism directly; his aim is to educate children. He offers same kind of curricula to children, which are offered by any other Pakistani school (not madrassas). Education which he is offering in his schools is transforming not only the lives of the students but also the lives of their illiterate parents. Education alone probably is not going to bring any fundamental change immediately but it sure will change the society for good in due time.

Let me reproduce a rather extensive extract from Three Cups of Tea to illustrate my point. Mortenson was in Pakistan when 9/11 occurred. He was advised by the U.S. Embassy to leave Pakistan because it was no longer a safe haven for Americans. But Mortenson was for a reason in Pakistan which he wouldn’t abandon. So he continued with his program. He went to visit Kuardu, a village in Baltistan where he had established a school for boys and girls and had planned to build similar shools in several other villages in that area. In the inaugural ceremony of his school, a Shia religious leader, Syed Abbas, was to address the gathering (Syed Abbas was greatly respected by his people whose leader he was). He started his speech as follows:

“Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim…As-salaam Alaakum… It is by fate that Allah the Almighty has brought us together in this hour…Today is a day that you(r) children will remember for ever and tell your (their) children. Today, from the darkness of illiteracy, the light of education shines bright…

We share in the sorrow as people weep and suffer in America today as we inaugurate this school. Those who have committed this evil act against the innocent, the women and children, to create thousands of widows and orphans do not do so in the name of Islam. By the grace of Allah the Almighty, may justice be served upon them.

For this tragedy, I humbly ask Mr. George (Cowan) and Dr. Greg Sahib for their forgiveness. All ofyou, my brethren: Protect and embrace these two American brothers in our midst. Let no harm come to them. Share all you have to make their mission successful.

These two Christian men have come half way around the world to show our Muslim children the light of education… Why have not we been able to bring education to our children on our own? Fathers and parents, I implore you to dedicate your full effort and commitment to see that your children are educated. Otherwise, they will graze like sheep in the field, at the mercy of nature and the world changing so terrifyingly around us…I request America to look into our hearts – and see that the great majority of us are not terrorists, but good and simple people. Our land is stricken with poverty because we are without education. But today another candle of knowledge has been lit. In the name of Allah the Almighty, may it light our way out of the darkness we find ourselves in.�

I believe, our collective salvation lies in education.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 23

Now you have a mental block......

I just want you to answer this question-

1. Does Kalima asserts a fact or an intention??

If it asserts a fact that muslim believes then it is just like saying all the time

"The moon is not cheese"

It is a stupid assertion.

Muslims all the time chanting kalima look the most stupid if it is a question of fact that is asserted by then. Presuming muslims are normal logical beings, then it is NOT so.

2. So the KAlima is infact an assertion of 'intention'

It is a supremacist assertion of intention towards other faiths that says that

We muslims do NOT believe in your deities , except Allah and WE do not believe in your prophets , except Mohammad.


In the same way - the constant assertion of

"Allahu-Akbar" is another supremacist chant that is like an movie fan follower asserting or an ad campain running for the "No. 1 Detergent".

Nothing looks so pathetic when they all the time say that my god is No 1 (and your gods are inferior to him).

Yeah Dr. Sohail follow the Fake Pakistani community in #29's advise....but before you find time in your busy schedule for a face 2 face, post a reply to my post#25.

What would I do with religious fundamentalists, especially those who adopt militant practices, have violent consciousness, and have become involved in armed struggle,
KILL THEM AND HANG THEIR DEAD BODIES ON STREETS AND LET OTHERS KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEM IF THEY DECIDE KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Masadi Sahib, you and HP should book a joint session with Dr. Sohail Sahib. You have often accused HP of being a dimwit, I think you two need to have a heart to heart in presence of a professional.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 24
dear tahmed 32...I agree with you that children who are sexually abused can become very agry not only with their abusers but also generalize their anger towards the whole community and become violent as adults.
When i was doing research about those psychopaths who later on became serial killers ( after I interviewed Javed Iqbal Mughal in his death cell (phansi ghat)in lahore pakistan) and wriote the book
The Myth of the Chosen One...(translated in urdu and published in pakistan as 'apna qatil' by mashal publishers)
I read that many of those men suffered physical, emotional and sexual abuse as children. sincerely sohail

HP:

"... please don’t write on subjects you don’t know anything about ..."

How dare you say such things. Sohail has made it very clear as to how you reform a terrorist. First, catch him/her. Second, provide crayons for art lessons. Third, discuss teenage sexual behavior. Click, the terrorist is reformed!

“I asked a number of people from different walks of life and diverse cultural backgrounds,�

Who were these people? Did you talk to them on the streets? Were they terrorism experts or you decided to read chowk posters? Chowk poster sounds like the only place. All the observations that you mentioned appears to be views expressed by them.

“Can militant religious fundamentalists be reformed?� If the answer is yes, then how?� These are million dollar questions pondered by many people in both the West and the East.�

Well, something similar to this was the subject of a study recently published by Rand Corporation and people can still find that on www.rand.org. That study showed many reform ideas along with some others. Rand has done lots of research work on terrorism. Rand is not the only think tank there are others that are doing similar research. I think instead of spending tons of money on the research, they should have just paid money to Dr. Sohail. For this fabulous report published for free on Chowk.(Is it possible dr. Sahib found some treasure trove of studies on the subject and hastily put together something for Chowk?)

“Being a student of human psychology who believes that human beings can change and reform, I studied interviews and biographies of militant religious fundamentalists who had reformed on their own and developed a peace consciousness.�

Where is the source? Who were they, where did you read the biographies of the reformed ones? The ones in Gitmo are still under trial for the last many years and no one seemed to have reformed after so much efforts including torture by the US government. Yeah, I heard Saudi Arabia has reformed some terrorists. No one has access to them in KSA, how did doctor sahib get to read their books?

“After militant religious fundamentalists reform, they either
leave politics altogether, follow a spiritual path or stay in politics but seek to bring about political change through democratic and peaceful means.�

Again where are they?

“we find some leaders and many followers who were part of a violent confrontation at one time and were perceived as “terrorists�, who experienced a transformation with the passage of time and embraced peace. It is fascinating to read biographies of Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin in the Middle East and Nelson Mandela and de Klerk in South Africa; they were enemies at one stage of the political struggle�

No one ever called de Klerk a terrorist. The poor sod was the last white President of SA.
Nelson Mandela? Religious fundamentalist terrorist? Dr. sahib, who is providing you this silly information? Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin were never religious fundamentalists at some point they were called terrorists by some insane people. No one ever called them fundamentalists.

Dr. Sahib, please don’t write on subjects you don’t know anything about!

#21 Dr sahib - I think my point was not that the taliban could not express them expressed themselves sexually as children. It was the opposite - that is, that they became psychopaths as a result of having been the targets of sexual predation as children.

#16 Posted by laddu

[Terrorism will stop if muslims start realizing the inherent supremacism that starts with the recitation of kalima in a prejudiced manner.

Once muslims do not think that believing in other Gods turns those believers into objects of hatred then much would improve.

What muslims require is sensitization towards other faiths because they have a very prejudiced view of other religions!! ]

Dear laddu,

Let me take this opportunity to point out how wrong you are. In fact, as Tahmed would point out, YOU are the prejudiced one. This is because you fail to understand (or even if you understand, fail to admit it publicly) that the words of hatred that you allude to in the koran are actually words of peace. Take for example, this one - "molten lead will be poured into the ears of the nonbelievers". This, in reality, is a message of peace. And if it is not, then you fail to interpret it properly. And as tahmed would point out, in any case, this refers to a different time. The lead pouring has stopped in the 21st century. Does not apply any more. How peaceful!

See, you need to open your mind. Maybe your Hindu background is an impediment. You have to be more open-minded like most muslims are.

Peace and joy to all! Allah alaikum salaikum! Illah illi ullah! Subhanallah!

Sohail:

"...and do not let them express their sexual desires as teenagers."

How should teenagers express their sexual desires?

Re: # 19 and 20
category 7 and tahmed 32
...yes i have read that hitler was a frustarted artist...
in my opinion
when communities and cultures do not acknowledge children's creative talents and do not let them express their sexual desires as teenagers then they pay a big price when those suppressed and oppressed creative and sexual needs turn violent and fanatical...sincerely sohail

#19 Dr Sohail: With "why cant we all get along" Patraeus now in Afghanistan, maybe they will start having art classes and group therapy for taliban. No doubt their psychopathic behavior has much to do with their being child abused during their formative years (a common phenomenon in those parts, as is well known).

dr. sohail,

dunno if this has been mentioned before, but Hitler was an aspiring artist. When his art ambitions were crushed, he moved towards what he moved towards.

If only a gallery or two had shown his art...the whole world would not have had to see his horror at the scale that it did.

Re: # 14
DEAR KULHAREE...I fully agree with you that many social, economic, religious and political factors play a role a creating religious fundamentalists. I was focusing on those who realizaed that they were on the wrong violent path and wanted to choose a peaceful path. I agree we need to change the social factors to prevent violent religous fundamentalism. But once people are involved as a psychologists abd psychotherapist we try to identify factors that contribute in the process of reforming. Thank you for your wise comments. I always enjoy your feedback. sincerely sohail

What is happening in Muslim world today is the beggining of the end of the Atlantic Charter that was signed between Churchil and Roosevelt in August 1941. The terms and conditions of this charter can be summarized in one sentence ``We (US) will save your (UK) ass (from Nazis), in return for your Empire``.

According to the Churchill`s own words, Atlantic Charter was the death warrant for the British Colonial Empire but he had no choice because German forces were preparing to land on British Isle with in weeks. According to eye witmnesses Churcill was in tears while signing the document. It is said that Roosevelt comforted him with these immortal words ``Mr. Prime Minister, I know it is hard for you, but I see you (British Empire) as a monkey who has stuck his hands in a jar full of candies. That monkey can easily get his hand unstuck if he simply let go some of the candies; but the monkey is greedy, he is jumping up and down, screaming and kicking but holding on to its candies. So my advise to you, Sir, is that it is time to let go of your candies``

So not only the British Empire but also all other European colonies came under US and USSR control. These Colonial powers installed their local agents in those colonies and started their proxy rule. But as the addage goes - what goes up must come down. So 9/11 was the turning point in history which marked the beggining of the end of the colonial era.

In the present globalized world Muslims have refused to be colonized anymore and they refuse to be the second class citizen of the global village. This struggle will continue until an equitable and just resolution is reached thru negotiation. This is an inevitability that can be delayed but cannot be denied or stopped.

In the process the proxy ruling elite of these colonized lands will be decimated. It is written on the wall. They can delay their decimation but cannot stop it. In Pakistan at least they were given a final and golden opportunity to establish the rule of law by reinstating judiciary in a dignified manner. This final chance was lost and now they show even more arrogance towards the agents of change. The change is inevitable. It was good for them to be part of the change, but they chose the opion of confrontation. Now it is absolutely too late to ride a moral high horse by labeling the agents of change as Islamists, fundamentalists, or Taliban or what not. Since when a revolution could be stopped by the labels given by forces of obscurantism and old order? never happened in history of mankind..

Terrorism will stop if muslims start realizing the inherent supremacism that starts with the recitation of kalima in a prejudiced manner.

Once muslims do not think that believing in other Gods turns those believers into objects of hatred then much would improve.

What muslims require is sensitization towards other faiths because they have a very prejudiced view of other religions!!

Sohail,

I also think that art classes will stop terrorism.

Dr. Sohail Sahib, In my village a guy ran a cycle shop and one day I went to his shop to get my cycle repaired and he admires my wrist watch. He asks me to take it off as he wants to closely examine it. While looking at the watch, he says “IdiaN tyre TubaaN buht fit nay� (The watch has very good tires and tubes). What I mean to say is that you always look at every issue from the position of your profession. The rehabilitation of religious fundamentalists may be found in by providing psychiatric and psychological treatment, but the success can only be realized by addressing the surroundings that produce religious fanatics. Poverty, lack of self-worth, unemployment, crumbling infrastructure, lack of freedoms, are some of the causes, and any solution to this problem can only be successful by addressing these issues (in addition to what you are proposing).

Sohail ji, it is not a matter of learnt prejudices but basic intellectual and moral orientation toward life and living.

Kakkar's point is (and in my own humble way I have saying the same thing for years), justice-orientation creates a fundamentally different society than compassion-orientation.

They are different modes of existence, not better or worse ways. One cannot bring up people in one orientation and then reform them into another at another time. It won't happen.

This compassion-for-all business would sound silly to those who are brought up in the justice paradigm.

Re: # 10
but who is qualified to do it? sohail

Re: # 9
Dear Eklavya....I am in favour of teaching all children compassion for the whole humanity and helping them see that our enemies are our distant cousins. Our prejudices for other religions and races and nationalities are the reflection of our social and cultural conditioning and we need to learn to rise above them. it is a difficult job but it is worth it. thank you for your comments and questions...sohail

How about a psychological analyses of muslim-mind in the light of the various hadiths.......

perhaps that would solve a lot of problem inherent to Islamic fundamentalism.......

Sohail ji, your fellow psychologist/psychiatrist kakkar, it seems, has argued that it it necessary to not only reform "bad (grown-up) apples" but also to teach kids that compassion is above justice!!!

What is your professional response, Sir?

masana brother, there is some anecdotal data from Oman, that Quin ji had once mentioned.

A new scholar of Islam has arisen there, who has refuted all prior interpretations and has established Islam as a religion of peace and harmony and justice for all. This has led to many former Jihadis giving up their small jihad (against others) and take up large jihad (against themselves).

So I googled a bit and this is what I found.

When these small jihadis are caught and put in jail, after a while they are given this option. They can either stay in jail or take to heart the teachings of this great new Islamic scholar. If they stay in jail, then there is no problem, but if they accept the Scholar's advise, then they are released, given jobs, and other worldly things.

Many of the small jihadis, it seem, surprisingly, are moved by the Great Scholar's wisdom.

Reforming Religious Fundamentalist? The shrink got the terminology mixed up.

This article is so funny and this art therapy lessons for reformation is hilarious. Doctory Sahib, get a life and try being practical.

Nice article.

But I don't agree that the solitary time spent in jails/hospitals will result in softening attitudes. You did mention that it could harden the feelings. I would like to know if there is real data for either cases.

"psychologist themselves have a great deal of society in them"

Good one. The thing to remember is that in reducing things to individuals, these inside-the-human-heart walas can become just tools in the service of ideas.

If I wanted to produce terrorists, for example, I would love to have all the psychologists/psychiatrists of the world keep themselves and others busy looking into the hearts of the terrorists I produce.

#3 Posted by Eklavya on
sote se kaise jag gaya bhai??? ke hoyo??

See if those Taliban's have to be treated individually then psychology is not sociology, otherwise it is sociology only. Psychology tells how individuals or groups will behave in certain conditions (little bit more than that), but those conditions themselves can be created by society or other individual or self.

Significant part of sociology will work as per psychology in future, once our psychologists learn a bit more about it. Psychology is still in infancy, because psychologist themselves have a great deal of society in them and so they are taking much more time in refining psychology than they should:-)

Dr Soahil

You reform one fundamentalist, I will give you twenty the next hour.

Dr, Sahib, with all due respect, you psychologists/psychiatrist/inside-the-human-heart walas show an amazing blindness to the social power of ideas. Why is that so?

Here, just a little food for thought:

'For each Taliban you kill, I can find 20 more to fill his place'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1522907/For -each-Taliban-you-kill-I-can-find-20-more-to-fill-his-place.html

Times Of India Delhi; Date: Oct 2, 2008;
Teach your children that compassion is above justice

In the opening piece, celebrated psycho-analyst Sudhir Kakar says we need to free ourselves from the ancient curse of humankind




Violence, we must admit, is as Indian as aam ka achar, as American as apple pie, as Japanese as sushi rolls. Odd as it may sound, the two biggest causes of violence all over the world, identified by psychologists such as Roy Baumeister, are the two we admire as positive qualities and encourage in our children: high self-esteem and moral idealism. On the collective level, we give high self-esteem, the narcissism of a community, the high sounding name of izzat, honour, and justify any number of acts of cruelty and murderous violence in its name. But there is even a greater source of violence that bedevils our individual and collective lives: moral idealism.

Once you believe that your violence is a means to a moral end, the floodgates to brutality are opened. As long as the perpetrator of violence maintains his moral commitment, to his faith, to his religious community, to the oppressed, or whatever else is the ‘cause’, he rarely displays guilt or shame for his murderous actions, something which is not true of the same actions as a member of other kinds of groups. We know that most major atrocities of the last century, and I have no doubt the trend will continue in the present one, were carried out by men believing they were creating utopias or defending their faith or idealised community from attack. Idealism is dangerous because it is inevitably accompanied by the belief that the end justifies the means. If you are fighting for God, for the oppressed or your religious community, then what matters is the outcome, not the path. Once you feel you have a moral mandate, you care much less for rules and legalities; the quest for ‘justice’ tends to be contemptuous of the notion of fairness.

Unfortunately, there have been eloquent voices that have defended violence in service of justice. In her Reflections on Violence, the philosopher Hannah Arendt writes “...under certain circumstances violence, which is to act without argument or speech and without reckoning with consequences, is the only possibility of setting the scales of justice right again...In this sense, rage and the violence that sometimes, not always, goes with it, belong to the ‘natural’ emotions, and to cure man of them would mean nothing less than to dehumanise or emasculate him’’.

The problem with this position is that such ‘hot’ violence inevitably turns into a ‘cold’ carnage characterised by planning and calculation. Moreover, violence that begins with a clear purpose acquires a life of its own, fulfilling obscure wishes more than its consciously stated goals. It begins to exercise a dangerous fascination, a “terrible beauty’’ from which too we cannot avert our eyes. We get a glimpse of this fascination in many kinds of collective violence, especially of the revolutionary kind. This violence has been described by Franz Fanon, in his The Wretched of the Earth, as one that “binds men together as a whole, since each individual

forms a violent link in a great chain, a part of the great organism of violence which has surged upwards’’. He might well have been speaking of the orgasm of violence.

No, what we need is a blanket rejection of violence, no matter what the cause. Justice is extremely important but we need to hold and teach our children that the value of compassion is above that of justice. When Gandhiji, in contrast to revolutionaries of the left and right, insisted on the priority of means over ends, he was intuitively aware of the malignant violence inherent in the other position.

What can we do? In the short term, there is no alternative to a firm resolve of the state that violence, no matter what the stated cause, will not be permitted. We know, for instance, that in ethnic/communal riots there is a window of about 24 hours in which the tension between the opposing groups is very high but violent acts have not yet taken place. Firm police action in this crucial time period can prevent the outbreak of violence which will otherwise spiral out of control. How to isolate responsible police officers from political interference in this 24-hour period (switching off all mobile contact?) is an issue needing urgent attention. In the longer term, we need to focus our educational efforts on emphasising the value of compassion, of which fairness and tolerance are important constituents, as much as of justice, of re-dedicating ourselves to the priority of means over ends. This is not an idealistic choice but is based on our evolutionary reality as human beings. We need to awaken our natural human compassion to counteract our perhaps equally natural propensity to violence and not just cede the battleground to the latter.

Indeed, compassion is as natural as violence. We now know from experiments using brain imaging that watching the suffering of someone who appears to be a victim of violence, activates a similar ‘pain network’ in our brains, the so-called ‘mirror neurons’. Showing the sufferings of victims of terror attacks or other forms of collective violence, as part of our educational curriculum in schools and colleges is an obvious next step in the long term combating of violence. We need to use all our available knowledge on social violence to begin freeing ourselves from this ancient curse of humankind.

Good article, to the point and not apologetic...