Beena Sarwar October 5, 2008
#28 Posted by akcheema on October 11, 2008 3:50:39 am
Re: # 26; nb
I still maintain that Parthaab bhai has a point. A woman just has to open her mouth and cry assault and all hell breaks loose. And if someone thinks there aren't all those manipulative females around, think again! especially in the west and amongst the "pseudo-westernised" in the Indian subcontinent .... this is not to undermine the point that rape is a deplorable crime but there is always two sides to the story ... one mustn't forget that.
I still maintain that Parthaab bhai has a point. A woman just has to open her mouth and cry assault and all hell breaks loose. And if someone thinks there aren't all those manipulative females around, think again! especially in the west and amongst the "pseudo-westernised" in the Indian subcontinent .... this is not to undermine the point that rape is a deplorable crime but there is always two sides to the story ... one mustn't forget that.
#27 Posted by nb on October 11, 2008 12:59:09 am
And how ridiculous to claim that a 105 year old woman is lying when she says she hasn't had sex, it shows you up very badly.
#26 Posted by nb on October 11, 2008 12:56:28 am
Parthaab, you remind me of my forensic medicine professor who sneered, they all agree and then they say it's rape. With such attitudes among medical examiners, how can survivors of rape have a chance of justice?
You were very vocal about the Scarlett Keeling case, please let Chowk janata also hear your views, so that they can form an opinion. Thanks
You were very vocal about the Scarlett Keeling case, please let Chowk janata also hear your views, so that they can form an opinion. Thanks
#25 Posted by jayp on October 11, 2008 12:42:32 am
Re: # 19
tahmed,
Paki civil society, my foot. The lawyesr and the civl society is only interested in bringing a corrupt CJ back. Even a so called educated man like you cannot accept teh reality of pakistan that the laws of pakistan which requires four male witnesses is at fault for not punishing the rapeists.
I can understand your plight, even the lawers and teh civil society, for taht matter even some one like BVeena cannot dare to mention that the hoodood laws are the problem. Of course for a confirmed jiahdi symapathiser like you, can see nothing wrong with the hoododd, like most of the other pakistanis.
heartening to see madani saab accepting the legal issue of poakistan.
tahmed,
Paki civil society, my foot. The lawyesr and the civl society is only interested in bringing a corrupt CJ back. Even a so called educated man like you cannot accept teh reality of pakistan that the laws of pakistan which requires four male witnesses is at fault for not punishing the rapeists.
I can understand your plight, even the lawers and teh civil society, for taht matter even some one like BVeena cannot dare to mention that the hoodood laws are the problem. Of course for a confirmed jiahdi symapathiser like you, can see nothing wrong with the hoododd, like most of the other pakistanis.
heartening to see madani saab accepting the legal issue of poakistan.
#24 Posted by parthaab on October 10, 2008 5:13:43 am
Re: # 22
True, but the fact remains that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents languishing in jails for the simple reason that no one will believe them - BECAUSE THEY ARE MALES.
True, but the fact remains that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents languishing in jails for the simple reason that no one will believe them - BECAUSE THEY ARE MALES.
#23 Posted by parthaab on October 10, 2008 5:12:43 am
The worlds oldest liar!
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/008200810101673.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/008200810101673.htm
#22 Posted by tahmed32 on October 10, 2008 4:45:26 am
parthaab #21 False convictions is a problem - as advancements in DNA technology have shown - but it happens in murder cases, robbery cases and so forth, not just in rape cases.
It is a different problem, and you can write a separate article on that. But to bring false convictions in is to draw attention away from the plight of rape victims.
It is a different problem, and you can write a separate article on that. But to bring false convictions in is to draw attention away from the plight of rape victims.
#21 Posted by parthaab on October 10, 2008 4:27:52 am
Re: # 19
Funny how some people dont seem interested, or care about the false convictions in rape cases.
Funny how some people dont seem interested, or care about the false convictions in rape cases.
#20 Posted by nkg on October 10, 2008 1:45:16 am
In Asia, rape is often used as political tool. It was used in 1947- partition time. And both sides treated the womenfolk of the other side as commodity. Frankly speaking, Indians need to return back to Maurya/Gupta era...
#19 Posted by tahmed32 on October 9, 2008 9:28:10 am
rape is one of the many injustices that befall those who are poor and weak in Pakistan. The civil society in Pakistan forms a thin red line against the jahils who are quick to make women the problem on the flimsy basis of "false reporting" by some women, rather than the men among whom we have the criminals who actually commit the rapes. Fortunately, the civil society in Pakistan is among the most active in third world countries.
ps: in india, as jayp can advise you, rapes or other crimes simply dont happen, and that is why he doesnt need to be concerned with rapes in india.
ps: in india, as jayp can advise you, rapes or other crimes simply dont happen, and that is why he doesnt need to be concerned with rapes in india.
#18 Posted by parthaab on October 9, 2008 3:55:02 am
http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html
With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community, 45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were studied. False rape allegations constitute 41% of the total forcible rape cases (109) reported during this period. These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations. [False rape allegations are reported in similar numbers at college campuses; approximately 50% of rape charges are admitted to be false by the accuser.]
Currently, the two main identifiable adversaries involved in the false rape allegations controversy are the feminists and the police. The feminists are by far the most expressive and prominent on this issue. Some feminists take the position that the declaration of rape as false or unfounded largely means that the police do not believe the complainant; that is, the rape charges are real reflections of criminal assault, but the agents of the criminal justice system do not believe them (Brownmiller, 1975; Russell, 1984). Some feminists virtually deny the existence of false rape accusations and believe the concept itself constitutes discriminatory harassment toward women (see Grano, 1990). On the other hand, police are prone to say the reason for not believing some rape complainants resides in the fact that the rapes never occurred (Payton, 1967; Wilson, 1978; Jay, 1991). Medical Examiners lend support to this police position by emphasizing the ever-present possibility that rape complainants may be lying (Shill, 1969, 1971).
METHODS
This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge.
In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable- if not a minimal reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge.
We followed and investigated all false rape allegations from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified us whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided us with the records of the case. In addition, the investigating officers provided any requested supplementary information so that we could be confident of the validity of the false rape allegation declarations.
FINDINGS
Regarding this study, 41% (45) of the total disposed rape cases (109) were officially declared false during this 9-year period, that is, by the complainant’s admission that no rape had occurred and the charge, therefore, was false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year and ranged from a low of 27% (3 out of 11 cases) to a high of 70% (7 out of 10 cases). The 9-year period suggests no trends, and no explanation has been made for the year-to-year fluctuation.
The study of these 45 cases of false rape allegations inexorably led to the conclusion that these false charges were able to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, a means of gaining revenge, and a platform for seeking attention/sympathy. This tripartite model resulted from the complainants’ own verbalizations during recantation and does not constitute conjecture. Of course, we are not asserting that these functions are mutually exclusive or exhaustive; rather, these rape recantations focused on a single factor explanation. A possible objection to these recantations concerns their validity. Rae recantations could be the result of the complainants’ desire to avoid a ‘second assault at the hands of the police. Rather than proceed with the real charge of rape, the argument goes, these women withdrew their accusations to avoid the trauma of police investigation.
Several responses are possible to this type of criticism. First, with very few exceptions, these complainants were suspect at the time of the complaint or within a day or two after charging. These recantations did not follow prolonged periods of investigation and interrogation that would constitute anything approximating a second assault. Second, not one of the detectives believed that an incident of false recantation had occurred. They argued, rather convincingly, that in those cases where a suspect was identified and interrogated, the facts of the recantation dovetailed with the suspect’s own defense. Last, the policy of this police agency is to apply a statute regarding the false reporting of a felony. After the recant, the complainant is informed that she will be charged with filing a false complaint, punishable by a substantial fine and a jail sentence. In no case, has an effort been made on the part of the complainant to retract the recantation. Although we certainly do not deny the possibility of false recantations, no evidence supports such an interpretation for these cases.
One of the most haunting and serious implications of false rape allegations concerns the possibility of miscarried justice. We know that false convictions occur, but this study only tells us that these false accusers were weeded out during the very early stages of investigation. However encouraging this result may be, we cannot claim that false charging does not incur suffering for the accused. Merely to be a rape suspect, even for a day or two, translates into psychological and social trauma.
With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community, 45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were studied. False rape allegations constitute 41% of the total forcible rape cases (109) reported during this period. These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations. [False rape allegations are reported in similar numbers at college campuses; approximately 50% of rape charges are admitted to be false by the accuser.]
Currently, the two main identifiable adversaries involved in the false rape allegations controversy are the feminists and the police. The feminists are by far the most expressive and prominent on this issue. Some feminists take the position that the declaration of rape as false or unfounded largely means that the police do not believe the complainant; that is, the rape charges are real reflections of criminal assault, but the agents of the criminal justice system do not believe them (Brownmiller, 1975; Russell, 1984). Some feminists virtually deny the existence of false rape accusations and believe the concept itself constitutes discriminatory harassment toward women (see Grano, 1990). On the other hand, police are prone to say the reason for not believing some rape complainants resides in the fact that the rapes never occurred (Payton, 1967; Wilson, 1978; Jay, 1991). Medical Examiners lend support to this police position by emphasizing the ever-present possibility that rape complainants may be lying (Shill, 1969, 1971).
METHODS
This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge.
In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable- if not a minimal reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge.
We followed and investigated all false rape allegations from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified us whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided us with the records of the case. In addition, the investigating officers provided any requested supplementary information so that we could be confident of the validity of the false rape allegation declarations.
FINDINGS
Regarding this study, 41% (45) of the total disposed rape cases (109) were officially declared false during this 9-year period, that is, by the complainant’s admission that no rape had occurred and the charge, therefore, was false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year and ranged from a low of 27% (3 out of 11 cases) to a high of 70% (7 out of 10 cases). The 9-year period suggests no trends, and no explanation has been made for the year-to-year fluctuation.
The study of these 45 cases of false rape allegations inexorably led to the conclusion that these false charges were able to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, a means of gaining revenge, and a platform for seeking attention/sympathy. This tripartite model resulted from the complainants’ own verbalizations during recantation and does not constitute conjecture. Of course, we are not asserting that these functions are mutually exclusive or exhaustive; rather, these rape recantations focused on a single factor explanation. A possible objection to these recantations concerns their validity. Rae recantations could be the result of the complainants’ desire to avoid a ‘second assault at the hands of the police. Rather than proceed with the real charge of rape, the argument goes, these women withdrew their accusations to avoid the trauma of police investigation.
Several responses are possible to this type of criticism. First, with very few exceptions, these complainants were suspect at the time of the complaint or within a day or two after charging. These recantations did not follow prolonged periods of investigation and interrogation that would constitute anything approximating a second assault. Second, not one of the detectives believed that an incident of false recantation had occurred. They argued, rather convincingly, that in those cases where a suspect was identified and interrogated, the facts of the recantation dovetailed with the suspect’s own defense. Last, the policy of this police agency is to apply a statute regarding the false reporting of a felony. After the recant, the complainant is informed that she will be charged with filing a false complaint, punishable by a substantial fine and a jail sentence. In no case, has an effort been made on the part of the complainant to retract the recantation. Although we certainly do not deny the possibility of false recantations, no evidence supports such an interpretation for these cases.
One of the most haunting and serious implications of false rape allegations concerns the possibility of miscarried justice. We know that false convictions occur, but this study only tells us that these false accusers were weeded out during the very early stages of investigation. However encouraging this result may be, we cannot claim that false charging does not incur suffering for the accused. Merely to be a rape suspect, even for a day or two, translates into psychological and social trauma.
#17 Posted by parthaab on October 9, 2008 1:00:05 am
'Rape' 'Survivors'?
What a contrast of terms!
Or is it just another way of driving home the point that this is more feminazi propaganda?
#16 Posted by ahmedmadani on October 9, 2008 12:55:21 am
Re: # 14 Jayp... Your point is well taken. You are not wrong.
You know that even most powerful can not do that , Awam will skin you alive.You can advice sitting in India , and have wonderful ideas . I can tell you go in indian jungle and there is tiger who's tooth need to be pulled so infection will go away. You go to help that tiger he will kill you even thogh you are doing favor to him.
Now Ms. Sarwar is doing evolutionally revolution is out of question. There is no wide spread support to women as equals.
Now most most women and men will say I can not do such big thing so point in doing. Other will say what Ms. Sarwar is doing is not going to change much so I will not do that also. Result nothing is done. Do
whatever one can is important and she is doing rather than leaving in dispair. Such things will move only glacially. You can collect browny points as they say.
Similary you say similar thining about Ahemadia sect/ religion etc. Most people in life on street do not believe in this crap. But when it comes to end it is law of land which declares they are not. You tell average man who wants go to Dubai or usa etc passport what he can do.He can not do nothing. Stop scoring browny points. It is not easy to break or attacks laws of land which can get you killed easily. Even most popular BB, powerful general can agree in private they can not do , things are not easy. So stop pontiffication sitting in safety of India.
Good day.
You know that even most powerful can not do that , Awam will skin you alive.You can advice sitting in India , and have wonderful ideas . I can tell you go in indian jungle and there is tiger who's tooth need to be pulled so infection will go away. You go to help that tiger he will kill you even thogh you are doing favor to him.
Now Ms. Sarwar is doing evolutionally revolution is out of question. There is no wide spread support to women as equals.
Now most most women and men will say I can not do such big thing so point in doing. Other will say what Ms. Sarwar is doing is not going to change much so I will not do that also. Result nothing is done. Do
whatever one can is important and she is doing rather than leaving in dispair. Such things will move only glacially. You can collect browny points as they say.
Similary you say similar thining about Ahemadia sect/ religion etc. Most people in life on street do not believe in this crap. But when it comes to end it is law of land which declares they are not. You tell average man who wants go to Dubai or usa etc passport what he can do.He can not do nothing. Stop scoring browny points. It is not easy to break or attacks laws of land which can get you killed easily. Even most popular BB, powerful general can agree in private they can not do , things are not easy. So stop pontiffication sitting in safety of India.
Good day.
#15 Posted by jayp on October 9, 2008 12:38:41 am
Kamath,
By teh way do not forget that it was none other than teh western educated paki PM who tried to deal with Condi Rice as a female...then of course the new president pakistan and Sarah Palin. In pakistan education makes absolutely no difference, the core values and attitudes remain the same, in all spheres of life.
Pakistan has produced no role model at all, neither in education nor in teh social field. Let us not talk about what happened to a nobel laurette.
By teh way do not forget that it was none other than teh western educated paki PM who tried to deal with Condi Rice as a female...then of course the new president pakistan and Sarah Palin. In pakistan education makes absolutely no difference, the core values and attitudes remain the same, in all spheres of life.
Pakistan has produced no role model at all, neither in education nor in teh social field. Let us not talk about what happened to a nobel laurette.
#14 Posted by jayp on October 9, 2008 12:34:17 am
Re: # 12
Kamath,
I agree with you, first there has to be laws, then only one can talk about enforcing them. In -pakistan there are no laws that metes out severe punishmnet, rather it has a law that requires four male witnesses, which implies that no rape perpetrator gets punished. How can one have chnages in laws. well the educated should talk about the need for law changes, in pakistan, the ilks of Beena do not even dare to mention the need for changes in laws. I rest my case. You can guess the why of it.
Kamath,
I agree with you, first there has to be laws, then only one can talk about enforcing them. In -pakistan there are no laws that metes out severe punishmnet, rather it has a law that requires four male witnesses, which implies that no rape perpetrator gets punished. How can one have chnages in laws. well the educated should talk about the need for law changes, in pakistan, the ilks of Beena do not even dare to mention the need for changes in laws. I rest my case. You can guess the why of it.
#13 Posted by ahmedmadani on October 9, 2008 12:32:11 am
Ms. Sarwar.... THanks for penning this report.
I want to convey my respect to you for doing this intesive work so our women will have life. You are doing the job , not easy job in society which is puritan and extremely oppressive towards women and violence is method used to clear the field.The most men of our cities are victim of sex fear and conservative and less content of women on any road leads sex obsession.This sex starvation leading to sex obsession is formula for victimization of women. You also teach by example being assertive of women rights in given situation. I know it is not easy for young women to travel by public transport in Karachi but they are forced to do to survive. I knew from childhood why women cry,they are helpless and suffer all time.Your work helps as word spreads. I normally do not contribute any money as have no surplus but cause is exceptional so I will contribute to organization which helps women.
Thanks , god bless you and help you in your work.
I want to convey my respect to you for doing this intesive work so our women will have life. You are doing the job , not easy job in society which is puritan and extremely oppressive towards women and violence is method used to clear the field.The most men of our cities are victim of sex fear and conservative and less content of women on any road leads sex obsession.This sex starvation leading to sex obsession is formula for victimization of women. You also teach by example being assertive of women rights in given situation. I know it is not easy for young women to travel by public transport in Karachi but they are forced to do to survive. I knew from childhood why women cry,they are helpless and suffer all time.Your work helps as word spreads. I normally do not contribute any money as have no surplus but cause is exceptional so I will contribute to organization which helps women.
Thanks , god bless you and help you in your work.
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