Rape Survivor Families Struggle Against Odds

So Parthaab, you are fine with paedophiles then? Just asking. I feel very strongly about the need to protect underage boys and girls from predators. At least I know and we all know where you stand then.
And yes, sex with an underage child is always rape.
By the way, did you read the news item about a 14 year old German girl raped by a Goa minister's son? Looks like Goa's not quite going to be the happening place it was any more.

Re: # 58; parthaab bhai

I think you have your wires crossed here .... there are very few things in the world I hate and feminism happens to be one of them .... so if the insinuation is that I am a feminist, you couldn't be more wrong!

Re: # 57

The only thing WORSE than a female feminist, is a Male feminist!

Dear nb and Parthaab bhai,

I do sense a certain 'chemistry' evolving between you too! ... I guess three is a crowd ... so leave you guys to it!!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delhi/2_women_held_for_extorting_money_in_fal se_rape_case/articleshow/3532157.cms

Re: # 54

nb, this debate is about RAPE. Not about the age for consent, which EVIL feminists like you seek to give respectability to.

So a girl can give consent at 15 or 14? How young would you want your own sister or daughter(though clearly you don't have one)to be to give consent? You're the one staking out websites everywhere to say the same thing, and I'm the one who needs psychotherapy?
(As an afterthought, what sort of psychotherapy would you suggest?)

How COULD we believe an extreme feminist like nb, and say that these were findings of an 'religious group' ( her OWN accusation ), and hence had to be WRONG?

Are we all FOOLS? ( Like her husband - or boyfriend is, in all probability?) I am afraid it confirms our worst fears - that women DO lie maliciously to get innocent males into jail. And the quoted figure is (gulp) 41%! NOT accusations, mind you, but false CONVICTIONS!

Do YOU have any study done by money rich feminists?

PLEASE READ THE FINDINGS IN MESSAGE NUMBER 18!

Re: # 51

nb, for all your rantings and ravings and hysterical feminine qualities, I have to admit you have me stumped on the fact that this girl probably gave consent while she was only 15 to have sex with this young bar attendent. So we are all to take it that this man has to be jailed for accepting her consent, and be charged with the utterly unjust crime of rape!

And yet, it is utterly disgraceful, and 'unfeminine' ( whatever that term means ) on your part, to ask that this man is jailed. Feminists like you, need psychotherapy, and are otherwise a danger to the sanity of gender-unbiased society itself.

And Parthaab, Scarlet Keeling was 15, neither she nor her mother can give consent for her to have sex. If someone's DNA is found, he will be charged with statutory rape. Many courts will overlook a 16 year old boy having sex with a 15 year-old, but no one will overlook a 25 or 26 year old. If a 30 year old woman has sex with a 15 year old boy, whether he wanted it or not, she too will go to jail. There was a female teacher of Indian origin in NY who was charged under similar circumstances some time ago, I have not kept up with the story, but if that is what she has done, she should be on the sex offender register too.

You have confirmed exactly what I had said, that your belief is that women are wanton and have random sex, and then blame men. You're suddenly not talking about percentages any more, because there are no legions of men in jail for false charges of rape.

Where and who are the women being "pampered"? You had said this about women athletes too, but the most "pampered" (another favourite Indian word, this) team of all is the Indian men's cricket team.

Nice job here Beena,

Had a chance to meet Mukhtar last year.

Hats off to her efforts.

Ras

Re: # 48

"...because it is what angry men, distressed at any loss of their enormous privileges wish to believe. ..."

Yes, it is unfortunate that males are strangely very quiet about offending female sensitivities on this board, and are remaining quiet.

As for DNA, I believe it is not reliable, since most rape accusations happen after CONSENSUAL sex. The Keeling case might be a good example, if indeed DNA was found on the girl.

The reason why people get convicted by DNA analysis, is that there is no MENS WELFARE department, that will finance a study on false convictions, and the womens department has a lot of money allocated to it, to ensure women get pampered, even at the cost of justice.

Those are figures taken from a website about Ananda, strange for a person who is leftist and an atheist. This is a Hindu religious group which was accused of sexual misconduct and is trying to say the women(several of them) were liars.
It suggests to me that you formed an opinion and looked for evidence to corroborate it. Feminist websites state it is 2%;FBI statistics are 9-10%, less often than false accusations of other crimes. The 41% comes from one study done in one American town(and I won't argue with it) and is all over the internet, because it is what angry men, distressed at any loss of their enormous privileges wish to believe. And even that is 41% of initial accusations, NOT 41% of convictions. Convictions in rape cases are less than 5% in India, lower than many other countries, because of the level of proof needed.
Secondly, I suggest that instead of talking about ephemeral cases, you pull out the lawbooks and take a look at the level of evidence needed to convict a person of rape in a case in an Indian High Court, and then talk about people falsely imprisoned.
I am interested in the Innocence Project and have had some dealings with it. In Australia, it has a unit working out of Griffith Law School on the Gold Coast and it is working on a large number of cases, mainly murder, but also rape. I would welcome DNA evidence being used more extensively in Indian rape cases, because justice is too important to be played with, and I believe rape convictions would rise in India as a result, which would encourage more women to come forward.

Re: # 46; parthaab bhai

I thought it was clear enough ..... the figures you quote seem plausible ... as opposed to nb's assertions that they are not

Re: # 45

"in a third world country of over one billion people, those figures are quite conceivable "


Well, I am no good at maths. Will you tell me what 41% of those convicted for rape is? Most guys need to be jailed for no crime, to understand the meaning of injustice.

Re: # 44; Parthaab bhai
[[The fact remains that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents languishing in jails for the simple reason that no one will believe them]]

in a third world country of over one billion people, those figures are quite conceivable

Re: # 40



I am not living in the west now, madani. So let us not fool ourselves by fantasies and myths. If you do not know about the abuse of anti-male Indian laws please read up 498a.org -before it is too late.

The fact remains that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents languishing in jails for the simple reason that no one will believe them - BECAUSE THEY ARE MALES.

Re: # 42

You must read the STUDY which confirms this ( message number 18 )

http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html

I am afraid it confirms our worst fears - that women DO lie maliciously to get innocent males into jail. And the quoted figure is (gulp) 41%! NOT accusations, mind you, but false CONVICTIONS!

Do YOU have any study done by money rich feminists?

Having said all that, I'm sure some people with all kinds of charges who have spent time in jail when they shouldn't have, and that should never happen to anyone, but to suggest that there are 1000s is ridiculous.

Why is that women do not speak up for men, and neither do men? Females do not have a sense of neutrality when it comes to MEN being in jail, falsely convicted. Let us be fair to ALL, and not be gender casteist.

And how do you know they were falsely convicted? Jails are full of people who say there are innocent, men and women. I have not met one person who was jailed and said he or she did what he or she was accused of doing. I have an idea of how hard it is to convict a person of rape in Indian courts. Most judges will not act unless there is a witness (so much for our claims of being better than countries where 4 witnesses are needed), unless the victim actively fought back (bad luck if she was drugged), and frequently, unless the victim is a virgin. The attitude is still that no real harm has been done unless the victim is a virgin. Woe betide the victim if she was unmarried and not a virgin, the judge and defence lawyer will make out that she is some kind of Jezebel who "asked for it".


Can we agree on that they are in jail, ONLY because society believed the womans false claim over the man? Is this phenomemon not nauseating enough for some here? Why do we always wait for it to happen to US before we wake up?

No, if it's a question of one person's word over the other, with no other evidence, they do not go to jail.

You haven't told chowkies what you think of Scarlet Keeling, you had said the 25 year old Goan man who had sex with a 15 year old(with her consent, which does not stand, with a 15 year old, both in the UK and India, it is defined as statutory rape) should not be blamed. Can you deny that your general attitude is "women are wanton and 'characterless' and men need to be saved from them"?

Re: # 37 Parth Sahib..... If as you say there are thousands of men in jail that is sad.
I think we are argueing about different things.
If I am correct you are in west, this problem must be in west( america , usa, uk , canada etc) and this does not exist here may be it may be in some city centers or few pockets in India or leading NGO type women who some times look towards men as steping stone to higher status. And this type ladies have status and they do job just for status,they need no money.

Now I have seen some pakistanis who married white women and they left with their children and women went of finding other man and he was left with all responsibilities.One poor Pakistani man seperated from his wife , the wife got new baby from white man and california court aggreed it is not his aby but he has to pay child support. But women even docile pakistani women go to usa go and get winds from there and change and deceive men. One pakistani couple from Karachi divorced husband and had his house given to her as she got custody of Child and he lives in rented place. From owner to room renter, his life is finished and he is economically finished. Now if nice well bred educated women behave like this those white women must be terrible as marriage is just contract and there is no sancity of marriage left. This strange place, mean this world. I tell men and women marriage is business so try to get best or better than you deserve but after it is family and love.
While new people consider initially love and over estimate color and looks and after marriage it becomes business and to solve business problems of marriage end p in courts. Wrong order. Men should be careful , marriae is dangerous game and should be avoided but is necessarily gamble. Old bujurgs have correctly said marrying for man is good,if wife is cow good looking and loving he becomes happy man but if she is like angry buffollow then he becomes Philosopher. Either way better than loney. Unfortunately men are romantic fools by nature and they watch stupid movies instead they should study nature of women. Now people , young people in west spends more time studying brands of car than woman he is going to marry. They take 6 months to buy car but marry wife in two days.
Nature of second/ weak sex is different.They are smart and watcing all time. It is sad but women are too calculating like baniyas. As they nurture children and have great responsibilities than men. I am consulted/ talked to many women including daughter and when they tell you why they marry even ugly toads you realiaze the thinking power of women.Women always think of children as it is destiny, they do not like but nature is stronger and leads them that way.
Men do not think about children its after effect or necessary evil. Any way women look for man who will protect her and her children, if she dies will take care of children,( there is kind of naked and ugly Darwanian attitude and under current) in old age love her and take care of her as they value growing old in love.
Now their nature is strange for sure. Most women do not care if they mis one target, once i told young woman I feel sorry she did not marry one man. She laughed and said do not worry if you miss one bus, ten more busses are coming. That is called maturity of women and foolish men go on crying and even write little lines , sensetive type ,poets etc.
In general if some body decives one should be careful. But stupidity of men about is love is beyond limits to say the list. So there is no foolproof method to avoid traps and get sad. One way is to study the future mother in law and women should study father in laws , they tell future how it is going to look.
I support for some organization like protective house for men, when they can get refuge and consuling even here. Here lso there are women who even beat physically and verbal torture is normal. This houses arerequired as men can not compalin to police about this matter as they will feel something wrong with man and neglect.
ParthaSahib has point also.
Good Night to all.

Re: # 38

"..nb didn't mean it like that at all .."

If she did not, she might have said it.

Re: # 37; parthaab bhai

nb didn't mean it like that at all and I don't think she is a gender casteist (whatever that is) .... on several points I agree with your point of view myself; only I feel in the Indian subcontinent there are many things that can be done better for women

I also agree that there is a "pseudo-westernised" subset that takes advantage of the law ... which is clearly there to protect those who are genuinely suppressed

Re: # 31

nb,

Why is that women do not speak up for men, and neither do men? Females do not have a sense of neutrality when it comes to MEN being in jail, falsely convicted. Let us be fair to ALL, and not be gender casteist.

Re: # 32

Madani,

True, but the fact remains that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents languishing in jails for the simple reason that no one will believe them - BECAUSE THEY ARE MALES.

Can we agree on that they are in jail, ONLY because society believed the womans false claim over the man? Is this phenomemon not nauseating enough for some here? Why do we always wait for it to happen to US before we wake up?

Re: # 34; madani sahib

on that issue we are in complete agreement sir.

Re: # 33 You are right and need balancing in every matter. The urban women on Desi/Continents have some sociatal and recourses to protection.But in Rural areas its Jungle.

I do not now what is in west. There is good possibility of misuse. I hope our women will become more aggressive for rights and western women come down from aggression to assertiveness. I have heard and read about cruel treatment inflicted on men as there is propensity to help the weaker sex. This is all my speculations. I do not know. If you travell beyond karachi urban area things change for worst very dramatically. I have seen by eyes deplorable conditions of women and think I m fortunate to be in Karachi and not woman in Rural Sindh.One of great Urdu giant (Premchand) said famously about plight of women in subcontinent." Woman ,your story is breast full of milk and eyes full of sorrowful teas".Not much has changed in Rural Sindh.

Re: # 32; madani sahib and nb

I see where both of you are coming from .... if you read my previous post, you'd realise I am speaking of a "balance" that has been lost in this debate

I know of several women who manipulate the system (my brother was, until recently, a civil servant working for the Child Support Agency in England) and they would do anything to have a unilateral say especially when children are involved. Often the father is completely taken out of the equation .... all the woman has to do is "cry" violence ... the onus to disprove the allegations is upon the man .... many come from the working class and can't afford long court proceedings etc .... so the women get their way! .... hence the increasingly "fatherless" generation who have no male role models in their lives .... then all the woman has to do is feed the child the misinformation that "he walked out on us"! ... the child never gets to hear the other side of the story.

It is all very well to speak of these crimes in the Indian subcontinental context and feel sorry for the victims (who indeed are genuine for the most part) .... like I said, my theory applies to the "pseudo-westernised" in that part of the world ... it is the same as in the name of "political correctness" some governments bend over backwards to appease their minorities! .... All I am advocating is a "balanced" approach, that's all

Re: # 28 Yes Partha has point, a woman can accuse and man can be in trouble. But normally it is not the way. Chances are more
Woman has been troubled. In statistics we teach theories based on equal outcomes. Here one side is more unevenly loaded. And it is unevenly weighted against women. The women are losers always ( mostly) in these contests irrespective of outcome. As we know law of god is against women at least 4 times in terms of witness. Even to accuse is ton of burden on woman , old , poor is even harder. Even family members will not like, they may acquiesce to help woman to prosecute very reluctantly. Now if woman is in tribal or bad lands even mighty Allah can not help.As duel laws exist here ( one is man made and other is god given) woman is at loss and god's laws are deadly against her. Most women wisely will like to forget for pragmatic reasons. Also proceeding in this matter human right wallahs and women groups can get justice but women chance are destroyed ( presently any single woman can be accused of immoral acts and is fair game , even kidnapped. The women need father when child and need husband and son/daughter when old is true as society is brute and women at any stage are fair game ) a young women getting married chaces go to zero , woman can be abandoned by family for families honor and we have sure double standards imbibed in men being adulterous of having many affairs as manly and women have less freedom than cows and many case less economic value. Many times women are treated as value exchangeable commodity to pay debts , get relief from crime. At least in Pakistan only deranged woman will accuse such things.


In west may be different as laws are made by man and not by God . The dynamics may be different. I can not say any thing, I do not know social dynamics but empirically in west Women are given custody of child indicates preference to woman as child raiser. This is advantage as not too far ago even there women were not allowed to vote. My feeling some women may be trouble makers but most must be suffering . I guess woman can punish man by not working as she will get alimony to raise child. Hope others can throw light.
At this time having duel systems of laws ( one law of land , superseding that law of gods/Allahs) is confusing and it is not clear which law is supreme .
Good morning.

Akcheema, out of interest, did your Forensic Med teachers ever say anything like this? I'm guessing not.
Again, too, I would ask you to take a look at parthaab's form on this. He has said many disgusting things about Arushi and about Scarlet Keeling. There is a certain group of men that thinks women are wanton and will have random sex at any cost, and then blame men, and he belongs to this group. To you as a man, he is an interesting curiosity, and he may make some sense, but as a woman, I see in his statements the same ideas and attitudes that have held Indian women back for centuries.

I still understand what parthaab says, but I personally know of a few rape cases that were never reported, because families were too ashamed that this happened to their daughters, and because they were afraid of the certain character assassination that still occurs in Indian rape trials. So, while I don't doubt that a few rape charges are not cut and dry, if they were all prosecuted, many more men would be in jail than they are today.

#25 jay thakeray: i thought i told you that hindu nuts like you are permitted to expose your measly little minds on chowk - but that is all. so dont try to engage in "discussions" with me.

Re: # 25 Mr. Jyp all lands have this dilemma and for people.
To follow the law of man or laws of god. Most countries have clear distinction. Like white western countries have law above laws of god. In countries like KSA gods laws are supreme, or in China communist gang at top words are law. Problem and Dilemma for Deshis like india, pak and BD. It is not clear as both mans and god's laws coexist and many times at odd with each other. We have to be patient and over next 50 to 60 years things will be sorted out. So women burned in india as beng widows and honor killings will go on. Now this americans and doners of money can force rulers to pick up the laws made by man. But it is not easy but some times fear of economic life line cut can lead to choosing laws made by man. That battle is slow an still outcome uncertain, winds can sweep man made laws and god's laws will control in future. Future is uncertain.

Re: # 26; nb

I still maintain that Parthaab bhai has a point. A woman just has to open her mouth and cry assault and all hell breaks loose. And if someone thinks there aren't all those manipulative females around, think again! especially in the west and amongst the "pseudo-westernised" in the Indian subcontinent .... this is not to undermine the point that rape is a deplorable crime but there is always two sides to the story ... one mustn't forget that.

And how ridiculous to claim that a 105 year old woman is lying when she says she hasn't had sex, it shows you up very badly.

Parthaab, you remind me of my forensic medicine professor who sneered, they all agree and then they say it's rape. With such attitudes among medical examiners, how can survivors of rape have a chance of justice?
You were very vocal about the Scarlett Keeling case, please let Chowk janata also hear your views, so that they can form an opinion. Thanks

Re: # 19

tahmed,

Paki civil society, my foot. The lawyesr and the civl society is only interested in bringing a corrupt CJ back. Even a so called educated man like you cannot accept teh reality of pakistan that the laws of pakistan which requires four male witnesses is at fault for not punishing the rapeists.

I can understand your plight, even the lawers and teh civil society, for taht matter even some one like BVeena cannot dare to mention that the hoodood laws are the problem. Of course for a confirmed jiahdi symapathiser like you, can see nothing wrong with the hoododd, like most of the other pakistanis.

heartening to see madani saab accepting the legal issue of poakistan.

Re: # 22

True, but the fact remains that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents languishing in jails for the simple reason that no one will believe them - BECAUSE THEY ARE MALES.

The worlds oldest liar!

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/008200810101673.htm

parthaab #21 False convictions is a problem - as advancements in DNA technology have shown - but it happens in murder cases, robbery cases and so forth, not just in rape cases.

It is a different problem, and you can write a separate article on that. But to bring false convictions in is to draw attention away from the plight of rape victims.

Re: # 19

Funny how some people dont seem interested, or care about the false convictions in rape cases.

In Asia, rape is often used as political tool. It was used in 1947- partition time. And both sides treated the womenfolk of the other side as commodity. Frankly speaking, Indians need to return back to Maurya/Gupta era...

rape is one of the many injustices that befall those who are poor and weak in Pakistan. The civil society in Pakistan forms a thin red line against the jahils who are quick to make women the problem on the flimsy basis of "false reporting" by some women, rather than the men among whom we have the criminals who actually commit the rapes. Fortunately, the civil society in Pakistan is among the most active in third world countries.


ps: in india, as jayp can advise you, rapes or other crimes simply dont happen, and that is why he doesnt need to be concerned with rapes in india.

http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html

With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community, 45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were studied. False rape allegations constitute 41% of the total forcible rape cases (109) reported during this period. These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations. [False rape allegations are reported in similar numbers at college campuses; approximately 50% of rape charges are admitted to be false by the accuser.]


Currently, the two main identifiable adversaries involved in the false rape allegations controversy are the feminists and the police. The feminists are by far the most expressive and prominent on this issue. Some feminists take the position that the declaration of rape as false or unfounded largely means that the police do not believe the complainant; that is, the rape charges are real reflections of criminal assault, but the agents of the criminal justice system do not believe them (Brownmiller, 1975; Russell, 1984). Some feminists virtually deny the existence of false rape accusations and believe the concept itself constitutes discriminatory harassment toward women (see Grano, 1990). On the other hand, police are prone to say the reason for not believing some rape complainants resides in the fact that the rapes never occurred (Payton, 1967; Wilson, 1978; Jay, 1991). Medical Examiners lend support to this police position by emphasizing the ever-present possibility that rape complainants may be lying (Shill, 1969, 1971).

METHODS

This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge.

In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable- if not a minimal reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge.

We followed and investigated all false rape allegations from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified us whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided us with the records of the case. In addition, the investigating officers provided any requested supplementary information so that we could be confident of the validity of the false rape allegation declarations.

FINDINGS

Regarding this study, 41% (45) of the total disposed rape cases (109) were officially declared false during this 9-year period, that is, by the complainant’s admission that no rape had occurred and the charge, therefore, was false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year and ranged from a low of 27% (3 out of 11 cases) to a high of 70% (7 out of 10 cases). The 9-year period suggests no trends, and no explanation has been made for the year-to-year fluctuation.

The study of these 45 cases of false rape allegations inexorably led to the conclusion that these false charges were able to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, a means of gaining revenge, and a platform for seeking attention/sympathy. This tripartite model resulted from the complainants’ own verbalizations during recantation and does not constitute conjecture. Of course, we are not asserting that these functions are mutually exclusive or exhaustive; rather, these rape recantations focused on a single factor explanation. A possible objection to these recantations concerns their validity. Rae recantations could be the result of the complainants’ desire to avoid a ‘second assault at the hands of the police. Rather than proceed with the real charge of rape, the argument goes, these women withdrew their accusations to avoid the trauma of police investigation.

Several responses are possible to this type of criticism. First, with very few exceptions, these complainants were suspect at the time of the complaint or within a day or two after charging. These recantations did not follow prolonged periods of investigation and interrogation that would constitute anything approximating a second assault. Second, not one of the detectives believed that an incident of false recantation had occurred. They argued, rather convincingly, that in those cases where a suspect was identified and interrogated, the facts of the recantation dovetailed with the suspect’s own defense. Last, the policy of this police agency is to apply a statute regarding the false reporting of a felony. After the recant, the complainant is informed that she will be charged with filing a false complaint, punishable by a substantial fine and a jail sentence. In no case, has an effort been made on the part of the complainant to retract the recantation. Although we certainly do not deny the possibility of false recantations, no evidence supports such an interpretation for these cases.

One of the most haunting and serious implications of false rape allegations concerns the possibility of miscarried justice. We know that false convictions occur, but this study only tells us that these false accusers were weeded out during the very early stages of investigation. However encouraging this result may be, we cannot claim that false charging does not incur suffering for the accused. Merely to be a rape suspect, even for a day or two, translates into psychological and social trauma.

'Rape' 'Survivors'?

What a contrast of terms!

Or is it just another way of driving home the point that this is more feminazi propaganda?

Re: # 14 Jayp... Your point is well taken. You are not wrong.
You know that even most powerful can not do that , Awam will skin you alive.You can advice sitting in India , and have wonderful ideas . I can tell you go in indian jungle and there is tiger who's tooth need to be pulled so infection will go away. You go to help that tiger he will kill you even thogh you are doing favor to him.

Now Ms. Sarwar is doing evolutionally revolution is out of question. There is no wide spread support to women as equals.

Now most most women and men will say I can not do such big thing so point in doing. Other will say what Ms. Sarwar is doing is not going to change much so I will not do that also. Result nothing is done. Do
whatever one can is important and she is doing rather than leaving in dispair. Such things will move only glacially. You can collect browny points as they say.
Similary you say similar thining about Ahemadia sect/ religion etc. Most people in life on street do not believe in this crap. But when it comes to end it is law of land which declares they are not. You tell average man who wants go to Dubai or usa etc passport what he can do.He can not do nothing. Stop scoring browny points. It is not easy to break or attacks laws of land which can get you killed easily. Even most popular BB, powerful general can agree in private they can not do , things are not easy. So stop pontiffication sitting in safety of India.
Good day.

Kamath,

By teh way do not forget that it was none other than teh western educated paki PM who tried to deal with Condi Rice as a female...then of course the new president pakistan and Sarah Palin. In pakistan education makes absolutely no difference, the core values and attitudes remain the same, in all spheres of life.

Pakistan has produced no role model at all, neither in education nor in teh social field. Let us not talk about what happened to a nobel laurette.

Re: # 12
Kamath,

I agree with you, first there has to be laws, then only one can talk about enforcing them. In -pakistan there are no laws that metes out severe punishmnet, rather it has a law that requires four male witnesses, which implies that no rape perpetrator gets punished. How can one have chnages in laws. well the educated should talk about the need for law changes, in pakistan, the ilks of Beena do not even dare to mention the need for changes in laws. I rest my case. You can guess the why of it.

Ms. Sarwar.... THanks for penning this report.
I want to convey my respect to you for doing this intesive work so our women will have life. You are doing the job , not easy job in society which is puritan and extremely oppressive towards women and violence is method used to clear the field.The most men of our cities are victim of sex fear and conservative and less content of women on any road leads sex obsession.This sex starvation leading to sex obsession is formula for victimization of women. You also teach by example being assertive of women rights in given situation. I know it is not easy for young women to travel by public transport in Karachi but they are forced to do to survive. I knew from childhood why women cry,they are helpless and suffer all time.Your work helps as word spreads. I normally do not contribute any money as have no surplus but cause is exceptional so I will contribute to organization which helps women.
Thanks , god bless you and help you in your work.

Re: # 11
Beena Sarwar was exposing a horrible social, cultural and human problem in Pakistan. It is true it has a religious dimension that has come from the past. I suggest you go to neighboring India and you will notice similar rise in these crimes. Rape in the open and sometimes in the full view of the public is quite common. There are very harsh laws, but still have not been effective. Recntly, a young woman from Britain on the way to Bhubaneshwar in Orissa was dragged from the bus and was raped in front of her father. Other travellers did not do anything. Police did not do anything. What happened to that UK girl who was gang raped and then murderd in Goan beach. Ever read that news?

These dreadful occurences are not the monopoly of Pakistan nor Muslim countries. Strictest enforcing of rule of law is what is needed.

So be a bit more compassionate and undertanding. Religion alone is the cause of all evils. Human society has full of sociuopaths, and psychopaths etc. To overcome this evil, one needs education and punishment too.

You remind odf a cow laughing at other cows saying the one in the front is displaying cow's private part! She forgets other cows can see her own too! So don't be a fanatic putting the blame on Pakistanis or Islam wholesale.

Kamath

Beena,

This is the usual pathetic white washing version of article.

As a woman why cant you say teh real and root cause, it is the hoodood and teh requirement to have 4 male witnesses. That is teh root cause, and no one in pakistan will dare to say that.

Hoodood is per the book and that is the only reason why no one dares to change it and no one dares to mention the root cause even on chowk.

Time to stop the pretentions, no need to white wash the image of pakistan, time to tell the truth if you really care to change anything.

With due respect with the feminist as a lawyer, I witness that a great majority of women accusing men of sexual harassment and adultery (rape) liars and blackmailers.

I stand corrected. "Woman Against Rape (WAR)" (www.womanagainstrape.com) is a different organization from the one mentioned in this piece. In fact, there are several other organizations with similar-sounding names (and missions).

Good article, Beena.

If I remember correctly, WAR is actually "Women Against Rape".

I found the site, I wish they had a paypal account or something...

http://www.war.org.pk/donate.html
with much respect,
thinking storm

Is there a website for WAR? Can people make online donations to it?
with much respect,
thinking storm

TS why did you have to dignify that with a response?

Bijli and Clean water are important, yes, but equally important is obtaining human rights and equality for 50% of our population (the women). How can we ever make progress with one hand tied behind our backs?
with much respect,
thinking storm

testing

I think it's time we got over this Mukhtara Mai thing and think about more important matters. Like GIVING PEOPLE AN UN-INTERRUPTED SUPPLY OF BIJLI AND CLEAN WATER!!!

Hitman

Not a very flattering picture of Pakistan, but honor killings and rape in rural Pakistan has recently gotten the world’s attention, thank in part to Mukhtaran Mai. Although this article only reports cases of rape, but I hope, it aims to generate discussion on how can our society be free of this menace. Here are a few thoughts:

- all public schools must be mixed, so boys can learn from a young age to view girls as their equal, and not a weaker and defenseless gender
- Same policy for Mosques. Mixed sex prayers. Mixed sex Maddrassas.
- Abolition of Shariah based Laws. Death penalty for rapists
- Legislations to have per capita gender representation in Assemblies (i.e., all political partiers be required to have 50% female candidates – they can work out the details, I can help)

Giving lip service to gender equality will not solve the problem, only the concrete steps taken in the direction of equal opportunity for girls as for boys will crack this terrorism against women. Unless women are treated as equal to men, the violence against them will continue.

Now some idiots will come and tell us the rape rates in the USA and other nonsensical garbage to deflect attention from gender based terrorism in Pakistan.