History and Origins of MQM Part II

Re: # 83
[[This same man (assume he is Muslim) will readily admit that Prophet Muhammad was completely illiterate (and THIS is again a grand lie).]]

of course it is a lie! .. with all due respect Prophet Mohammed WAS NOT an illiterate ... he contributed immensely to arabic literature and his writings have come very close to being all time best-sellers

I suppose that is exactly the point you were trying to make too ... this myth needs to be dispelled ... I for one feel very strongly about it

Khuda hafiz

NKG, could you please convey to a 'concerned' interacter that I have no desire to communicate with turncoats?

Re: # 81
Venga, bang on with your comment!

Now THIS is the problem faced by most modern educated men: a sort of degree-acquisition syndrome. This same man (assume he is Muslim) will readily admit that Prophet Muhammad was completely illiterate (and THIS is again a grand lie).

My sympathies are with the truly enlightened gurus and rishis whose ashes must be feeling very disturbed with this pin-stripe suited Harvard-educated man's comment.

Shanti

Re: # 79
NKG:

"tahir...I think this is the first time, I liked your comment...."

Well, you don't have to like me only when I agree with you. I've said what I've said after seeing, meeting with, and speaking to hundreds of these 'deserters'!

It is these Green-cardigans who are the real 'monkees'! I'm glad you see the ones on your side in the same light.

Shanti.

"There’s no use of living with people who are unproductive, uneducated and unreliable"

So why do you want people on all of the earth to be productive, reliable and educated...I dont know aht you mean by educated...Atleast they dont cause global warming and Lehmans...

Re: # 79; nkg sahib,

actually Tahir sahib has a lot of good things to share, not to forget the humour and satire .... unfortunately he gets side-tracked by his own arguments at times

he hasn't been interacting here for a bit ... I hope all is well Tahir sahib

Re: # 73
tahir...
I think this is the first time, I liked your comment....

Mr. barrister, we face problems everywhere. how many times should we jump from one branch to another branch? every one of you (pakis) are responsible for what Pakistan is today (same goes to Indians as well)...it is very immoral to leave a country, when it is in bad shape...but most of us behave like this....

Back to square one, people of Pakistan are never going to straighten out and never understand their purpose of being in "this world".

BJ2
"They need to focus on the insaan part of their existence..."
Yeh man, Pakis are becomeing insane day by day....

Pakis will create mini-Pakistans everywhere and then when the matter of settlement of moslems from India comes, they react violently....
My dear mohajirs, please take more mohajirs from UP and Bihar and flood Sindh, Punjab, NWFP.....That is the way you can get political power etc. and strengthen Pakistan....
India needs to adopt some kind of pushing strategy ( what BD/VHP fellows done at 2002)....

#72 barristerakc {"Forgive us lord for making this Frankenstein named, “PAKISTAN�. There’s no use of living with people who are unproductive, uneducated and unreliable.
"}

Barrister Bhai,
Please don't lose heart. This nightmare too shall pass and Pakistan will one day again, Inshallah, become the happy, prosperous, and peaceful land that it was for most of its short history.
I do not believe in disintegration. I prefer working out problems in a rational, peaceful, and progressive manner. In the '40s, had I been around, I would have opposed partition. In 1971, had I been around, I would have been against the repression of the East Pakistanis and against the establishment of Bangladesh. Division diminishes the whole - numerically, qualitatively, and irreversably.

#67 ahmedmadani }
You know if you want your cat be out door , donot handicap him by declawning. As other maless will kill your cat mercilessly.A Political organization should have military wing or lakshar in present situation"}

Madani Sahib,
LOL - No wonder you are one of my favorite personalities on FP. I loved your analogy and it really drove the point home. While your logic regarding "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" is quite apropos, I must think of the larger picture - the survival, unity, and peace of Pakistan. Altaf Payee has too much baggage from the past and his long overdue self-exile in UK has damaged him considerably with simple Pakistanis back home.

I welcomed the change from Mohajir Qaumi Mahaz to Muttahida Qaumi Mahaz - all I am asking is the implementation of this national outlook. Anyway, I value your comments and encourage you to keep providing your valuable feedback.

#66 BJ2 {" If Pakistanis truly wish to have a better tomorrow (than the past), they need to move away from labels such as Mohajirs, Sindhis, Punjabis, etc. They need to focus on the insaan part of their existence, perhaps that will help broaden individual perspectives and forge a common identity instead of prejudiced narrow parochialism."}

Dear Coomar,
This sensible and rational post will be remembered for a long time as your finest hour. :) Sometimes, you really surprise us. Dhanneywaad

Re: # 72
"Good thing is that I have a back-up plan since I got my British Passport"

The real problem with this 'Frankenstein' is that half the population possesses a British/U.S. passport (a God-cursed 'backup plan')!

This is no Switzerland chum and we don't appreciate insults from foreign nationals.

Bhai-Sahab, I moved to Pakistan last year with a hope that things will work out and opened a law firm apart working from UNDP on different projects in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. It’s sad to see what has become of Pakistan post-Mushraff – I know some of my friends and clients lost everything they had in stocks and sending back their money to abroad to be kept in banks.

I am disappointed in Pakistan and the more I talk to people on the streets on Karachi, they want independence from the rest of the bloody religiously-motivated, backward, uneducated Pakistanis (i.e. from the whole of North Pakistan). Forgive us lord for making this Frankenstein named, “PAKISTAN�. There’s no use of living with people who are unproductive, uneducated and unreliable.

(PS. Good thing is that I have a back-up plan since I got my British Passport).

Re: # 69; beej

as in Mrs Jalaluddin Akbar??

Damn these urban 'bhatta'-collectors....

Re: # 68

Ahmedmadani sahib, you worry unnecessarily. Jodhabai is unlikely to ban anybody unless you make her WORK.

Re: # 67 Stupid , coward red flagging so I will be banned like My friend masadi. If you ban is ok. I will stop.

Re: # 63 Salim Bhai.... Your statement is not factualy wrong.
"To do that, it must first remove its archaic, confusing, and irresponsible leader, Altaf Hussein. It must also look beyond the narrow confinement of ethnic rivalries and be the serious, secular, progressive, and patriotic party for ALL Pakistanis. It must disavow violence, apoligize for its illegal acts, cooperate with law enforcement, and forever remove the ugly label of Indian agency."

Altaf Hussain does not deserve all adjective you assign. He is most wather beaten leader. He wants to guard interests of Hindustani Muslims and Pakistan politics id jungle. It is place where politics is calculus of "ethinics" and natationality interests. Altaf is always trying to protect interests of new sindhis. To be honest nobody was honest about "bihari" including MQM even today. Manty times MQM have been King Maker and can forced to make sure "immigration" takes place. It was talking or kicking football and sure dejected Biharis understood even for MQM "out of site out of mind". is now situation. Even for MQM biharis are lost people. IF Hindustani muslims do not care for bihari Muslims ( after all they are backward, dark colored people) why white muslims will bother. Is dead horse.
All political parties using ethinic politics to hilt why single out MQM. Now violence is not good if it nondirected.
MQM under AH used violence when PPI were useing same. I have said earlier AH is not mad man. AF has been generous to his political friends and dangerous to his enemies. THat is reasonable way where many got posts through murder, coups and assinations. You know if you want your cat be out door , donot handicap him by declawning. As other maless will kill your cat mercilessly.A Political organization should have military wing or lakshar in present situation.
If PPP has such organization Zia would not have dared to execute ZAB judiacially and hang and defile dead man body. Today many Psycopaths do not start war on MQM as they know Hindustani Muslims have different response than Sindhis but they will retaliate massively damaging economic interests. Before Balochi resitance was killed but when they started blowing up pipelines, railways , electric pylons their killer got message and they became moderate. They were told their leaders will now from where missile blow came. Such arrogence after usurping all gas and minerals from B.Stan. After resitance of violent nature started moderation started as key is fear and economics. So presently you advice is pious and praiseworthy but to follow at this time can lead to destruction of that party. When Sindhi Jiyals when on rumpage and destroyed state property then even army govt mellowed.
Presently situation is bad and but in few years will look great times. Economy of nation is disintegrating and every ethinic group is undewr tension including Major group of Punjabis also worried about future. There is increase in violence. On an average 30 people are killed in violence. More people are living in fear. Do you want MQM be unarmed when other groups are armed.
I will not go in details as you are too smart to be explained Mr. A H "lunatic behaviour" in your words.
( Archic,confusing and irresponsible). Kindly think over what I am going to say. Mr. AH may be mad but his madness has a Method ,Good day.

The article is informative. But a lot of this stuff belongs in the past and needs to be left there. If Pakistanis truly wish to have a better tomorrow (than the past), they need to move away from labels such as Mohajirs, Sindhis, Punjabis, etc. They need to focus on the insaan part of their existence, perhaps that will help broaden individual perspectives and forge a common identity instead of prejudiced narrow parochialism.

I have posted a new ilog, not being displayed on FP by Chowk Staff

Prejudice and Culture Arguments

http://chowk.com/ilogs/69490/40823

Some love from china for pakistanis....NYtimes

LATEST NEWS Rebuffed by China, Pakistan May Seek I.M.F. Aid By JANE PERLEZPublished: October 19, 2008 ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - President Asif Ali Zardari returned from China late Friday without a commitment for cash needed to shore up Pakistan's crumbling economy, leaving him with the politically unpopular prospect of having to ask the International Monetary Fund for help.Pakistan was seeking the aid from China, an important ally, as it faces the possibility of defaulting on its current account payments. With the United States and other nations preoccupied by a financial crisis, and Saudi Arabia, another traditional ally, refusing to offer concessions on oil, China was seen as the last port of call before the I.M.F.Accepting a rescue package from the fund would be seen as humiliating for Mr. Zardari's government, which took office this year. An I.M.F.-backed plan would require Pakistan's government to cut spending and raise taxes, among other measures, which could hurt the poor, officials said.The Bush administration is concerned that Pakistan's economic meltdown will provide an opportunity for Islamic militants to capitalize on rising poverty and frustration. The Pakistanis have not been shy about exploiting the terrorist threat to try to win financial support, a senior official at the I.M.F. said.But because of the dire global financial situation, and the reluctance of donor nations to provide money without strict economic reforms by Pakistan, the terrorist argument has not been fully persuasive, he said. "A selling point to us even has been, if the economy really collapses this is going to mean civil strife, and strikes, and put the war on terror in jeopardy," said the official, who declined to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the news media."They are saying, 'We are a strategic country, the world needs to come to our aid,' " he said.

Dear Pakistanis
I encourage you to concentrate your energies on the important issues affecting Pakistan - disunity, nosediving economy, rampant terrorism, and erosion of self-confidence.

Yes, I have supported rights for Urdu speaking Pakistanis and repatriation of "stranded Biharis" from Bangladesh. I still consider these to be important issues, but in light of the more urgent and insidious problems gnawing at the fabric of Pakistan, I suggest that we place ethnic, provincial, linguistic, sectarian, class, gender, and religious diversions on the back burners. While these problems persist in Pakistan, they are often exploited by foreign manipulators and their willing Pakistani agents to further divide and demoralize our nation.

Note to Cliftonbridge and other superficial "Pakistanis"

Now is not the time to provide free entertainment and inferiority complex-laden encouragement to our avowed enemies. The cheap, temporary, and meaningless applause, that your biased audience, among our neighbors, provides for your misguided gratification, is definitely not worth the erosion of unity and entrenchment of disappointment for Pakistan. Please grow up, act more responsibly, and reconsider your sophomoric position.

In conclusion, I am sure that MQM will evolve into a mature, responsible, national, and even positively contributing element of Pakistan's political landscape. To do that, it must first remove its archaic, confusing, and irresponsible leader, Altaf Hussein. It must also look beyond the narrow confinement of ethnic rivalries and be the serious, secular, progressive, and patriotic party for ALL Pakistanis. It must disavow violence, apoligize for its illegal acts, cooperate with law enforcement, and forever remove the ugly label of Indian agency.

"I refuse to join the unpatriotic so-called "Pakistanis" in degrading the concept, people, unity, society, and state of Pakistan."

No please don't be like that, we really need your wisdo.. wait who gives a fck? On with the entertainment

Bubba it is obvious that the only person who is full of hate on this thread is you. You have some chip on your shoulder and after all your previous crap has been refuted you are now moving on to the old and stale allegations of bhatta. MQM is no longer a bhatta collecting party, you have no evidence and will continue to believe what you want to believe. MQM's policies in the 1980's were completely justified and necessary for our survival.

Btw did you even read the article it has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand and you are spouting of utter shite.

Dear Chishti

Here we go again, I really cannot understand this infatuation with MQM and its history.

Maybe next time you could write about the Punjabi chauvinism of PML-NS or the Pathan centric ANP/NAP.

Much appreciated.

MQM with all her problems is a genuine representative of Mohajirs and represents every Mohajir (using Salim Bhai’s word “M� instead of “m�) be it at the top level or lower down to the clerical level. I personally do not like Altaf Hussain as a leader of MQM but that does not stop me supporting his message and the party – as it is formed by people in our families, our friends, people we know as we own MQM.

Excellent analysis – welcome to chowk Mr.Chishti. I agree with most of your views however you should start writing on Pakistani politics as it looks like you write prodigiously.

I am in a process of writing another part and since I will soon be publishing a book - I found couple of other things.

Transformation of MQM
The other two forgotten Mohajirs which later merged into MQM were Mohajir Rabita Council (MRC) and Mohajir Ittehad Tehreek (MIT). The MRC was an organization of the older generation of Mohajirs (in Hyderabad area) founded by Maulana Wasi Mazhar Nadwi, a former leader of the JI in Sindh who had been expellef from the party in 1976. During Zia's period he was appointed the mayor of Hyderabad and for a breid period became the federdal minister of religious affairs. Another member was Ishtiaq Ahmed, who in the 1970s
was associated with the Mohajir Punjabi Pathan Movement (MPPM). He would later become an MQM senator but in the mid-80's he criticized the MQM's coperation with the Sindhi separatost Jiyay Sindh Movement and the PPP. He and other mRC memeber attacked Altaf Hussain for being in
good terms with G.M Syed. They ridiculed the MQM leader by presenting a video of him in the reception room of GM Syed, sitting in a submissive pose with his knees togather and stammering barely intelligible words in favor of Sindhudesh.

The MIT was more radical and militant of young Mohajirs that formed in 1986. It's leader the medical student Saleem Hyder, claimed to be the cofounder of the APMSO in 1978 and a friend of Altaf Hussain but also said that he had left the student organization becaus ehe was against the
adoption of ethnic politics by the APMSO. He condemned this as a denial of sactifices made by older generation of Mohajirs. Nonetheless, both groups occasionally worked togather and even at times clashed. The MIT attacked the MQM on two points: it's alliance with Sindhi parties' and
it's supposed domination by Shia Muslims. MIT vanished from the scene after 1988 and disolved herself into MQM only after they helped detach the MQM from it's Sindhi allies.

masadi sahib has posted an important ilog, read it while it lasts.....

oeye, mqm wallos,

learn some history written by your own karachi walla, aur ibrut haasil karo, jahilo

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\10\18\story_18-10-2 008_pg3_5

opinion: Looking back in anger —Salman Tarik Kureshi

And that brings us to our present plight. The incredible mess left behind by the Musharraf regime is arguably the worst yet...[read MQM]. But, let us face the fact that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are mere symptoms. The real malignancies, from which has grown the frightful cancer that has riddled our national fabric, have been the petty opportunism and continual failures of our leadership.

The writer is a marketing consultant based in Karachi. He is also a poet

Re: # 53 China race is better type . They do not tolerate indians and iranisns to be called as asians. They told usa govt not just put chinese with bunch of Indians as asians. Asians means advanced type people not like Indians. Just clarification. Due to china usa govt Indians are not considerd asians but just east Indians.

Re: # 52 Big G all contract for ship, port handling is awarded to govt of Singapore.
Chinese brothers are welcome but not sisters as they start massaging etc which is against ethos of people. Chinese are good people . neat, clean, tidy and efficient and deciplined and awam can learn lot from them. Chineser are very hard and good money sense people. One of my student who had been to usa said they are smart people than desis. He said if some body feels they got good cheap car from asians they will be for surprise. They care for money and save money. Honestly they are superior race than indo Pakistani races.Also they are very westernised that helps lot. They always wear western dress and behaviour like western advanced man.

Re: # 49 Posted by ahmedmadani on October 17, 2008 5:40:05 pm

keep an eye of chinese people that would bring a lot of aid money and projects with them. the chinese send money along with their own people to handle projects. just look at any where in the world where chinese money have made inroads in the local economy.

karachi and pakistan would have to learn how to cope with chinese amongst them who come with lot of aid from their government. maybe the big G will be full of chinese worker working on projects that are paid for by chinese money, technology and labor.

as usual paki idiots will not see this chinese influx, and would start claiming as some sort of their tactical political win over the west.

New Island deveoplemts of lands and new high rise will transform all of Sindh and Karachi ? UAE investors want to put a new city blocks like Dubai, newyork etc, estimate are near 100 billion dollars. Over long term real estate investments in Karchi shore development will dwarf all other investemnts. ( 50 story buildings, independent power plants and separate water purification unit, parks, I saw some pictures and every body will feel proud that island city will compete with newyorkor Dubai, singapore, there will lot of money bringing business, specially services needed for residents living in this new city_.

Re: # 44 Posted by CheGuevara on October 17, 2008 1:50:38 pm

Ok. so what are you saying? are you saying that the bhutta geers are no longer going around around and asking for bhuttas? will one not find some "islamobats" who claim to have superiority complex over other innocent law abiding Pakistanis? will ishrat-ul-abid give back his falsely gotten aid from the British government? all these facts show the character of MQM leadership. those who call themselves mqm-wallas have bogus leadership skills. except for showing hate and loud mouthedness they have nothing to offer. insulting people who challenge their public behavior is no leadership skills. relating your political behavior with other people's evils and comparing your political behavior with their's does not show anything. monkeying around on a podium does not become an exceptional orator.

are you claiming that today's mqm is behaving differently than the behavior of mqm in the 1980's? or are you justifying mqm's past behavior.

if pakistanis do not change their hatred towards each other and towards the world, then pakistan will become another somalia, and karachi will become another gaza. no other sensible country will allow these incendiary people to be amongst them.

This great story of transformation of Karachi from small city to one of greatest metropolis in world. At present rate of growth of population and immigration from Rural to urban areas will be accelerated as War on terror will force tribals to flee amd magnet is Karachi.Even with poor conditions Karachi is goilden city compared to Tribal areas and magnet for millions of people from north west and bringing ethos of tribal areas. My calculations based on similar cities ( Cairo, Lagos, Manila) will reach 30 million around 2030. The percentage of population to national population will remain same ( about 10 %) , By that time population will be over 300 million at lower end and at upper end 350 million. Then Karachi will stop growing due to physical limitations on infrastructure. It is tragedy on regular Basis Dhbheji Pumping fails and city is in trouble. It comes to mind a country which is first muslim nuclear state can not make pumping plant work on regular.
Circular Railway will never happen as all areas where it ran at inciption are occupied by people and politically impossible to move.
MQM may slowly loose grip due to demography as tribal people are expanding fast as they have on an average 8 to 10 children , while hindustani muslims being urban people have definitely less children. In democracy it is number game. They are in transporatation, drungs ,smuggling etc business and they will have edge due to higher profits and less capital investments. There are enclaves of tribal people but soon the expanding populaTION OF ENCLAVES will transform in soild areas where MQM will be like foreign political party. Sindhis will be more loosers as they have no neumerical strength. Basic story is Hindusrtani muslims replacing Sindhis and sindhis retreating to interior and new tribal immigrants will be shaping future of city. Let us hope both new sindhis ( MQM and Tribals) can find a equilibrium over long term.
The equilibrium attained between present urban sindhis and natives was cruel in social, economical displacements of sindhis toback lands. New immigrants are always dynamic, hungry and in expansion mood while natives are lost everywhere. So red Indians, sindhi, palestanians have to suffer, this type of movements always happens.
It will be interesting to speculate how MQM will react Tribal power. MQM are new people so they will have different character than Sindhis,MQM has only urban areas they can not retreat.
Quetta has gone peaceful transformation without any violence and Pathans are like Hindustani muslims and balochi have no power. Balochi people also in retreat but like sindhis and small numbers make them less powerful so thay resort to violence of revolutionary type , like blowing of rails , gas lines ( which carries away the gas to far cities and they only get shaft). It will be interesting to see what happens in big "G". Who will be dominent group as the situation is in flux.
The migration of people changes history.
There is national advantage as MQM dominence dooms Jiye sindh dreams , same way Pathan dominece dooms balochistan national movements. With loss of Karachi and Quetta to nationalists ethinic splitists have no chance, they are strategically doomed. Good thing for national integrity.

no not everyone , just the people who are certificably batshit.

{"barrister i wouldnt bother responding to that, if he is serious then he is insane. Let it go."}

When left with no arguments or logic, why do certain inferiority complex-laden sophomores resort to questioning the sanity of their adversaries? I think that it's insane to consider everyone to whom you lose your arguments as insane.

While this topic may be interesting, I refuse to join the unpatriotic so-called "Pakistanis" in degrading the concept, people, unity, society, and state of Pakistan. Little do these myopic midgets realize that they are providing free entertainment to our stingy neighbors seated in the cheap seats - but then maybe that's exactly the audience they mean to please. Lanat he in ghaddaaroN par.
Salim Chauhan

Agha Hassan Abidi, the Haroons and the bureaucrats were memons now. You have my sympathies if you're really this much of a ch... ok chowkstaff I will abide by your guidelines just this once.

"No, I have not said any of those things. Two wrongs do not make it a right. "

The point is that many political parties should not have a political mandate under these conditions.

"Maybe two wrongs make it a right in Korangi, where innocent mohajirs are being tortured by MQM thugs, but in the civilized world pakis have to learn to respect other's opinions, and call a wrong where they see one."

How about the muhajir women who were raped for days by the denizens of sohrab goth before having their bodies left on roads? Or ethnic cleansing of North Karachi slums going on in the early 80's?

"agreed, and now I would expect a mohajir to take credit immediately."

Which one of your mancrushes are you referring to as Muhajir Bhutto, Zina, Nawaj? Or are you holding mushy and shortcut responsible for the past 37 years. Why don't you ask the muhajir who lives under your bed steals your socks and wanks all over your bedsheets to take credit.

"granted, but not the urdu pseaking thugs. if you want to hide under memon's and bhora's, none of them called themselves as mohajirs. they used to shun the urdu pseakers, because of their despicable mannerism."

This is irrelevant and was back in a time where there was no real "muhajir" or "Hindustani Karachiite" identity. Nowadays, most memons support MQM (a minority are jamaati, while alarmingly high percentages are islamobots), Ever heard of Farooq Sattar It all seems like you have absolutely no accquaintance with memon mannerisms not to mention, pakhtun, punjabi, sindhi, Ivorian, or Quichua mannerisms. Aasif apologizes to you on behalf of urdu speakers with bad mannerisms.

"mostly memons grabbed all those hindu buildings and never paid a dime to anybody. And you call these "chors" as great industrialists."

Karachi has the highest number of succesful integrated Hindu's than any other City in the country. There is also a vibrant hindu middle class, the only one in the country. Whats your opinion on the relative affluence of West Punjab vis a vis the rest of Pakistan as well as its huge Hindu community?

Re: # 42 Posted by barristerakc on October 17, 2008 1:28:39 pm

array baiwakoof, pakistan is begging for $100 Billion because of a threat of imploding. of course the world community is scared of paki fanatics to get out of control. And they might eventually cough up some dough to keep these crazies from Karachi or Lahore.

likewise, mqm has big non-urdu speaking community donors because they have to, not because they want too. that is what this gunda has been successful to achieve.

i have yet to meet a single [Aga Khani, Memons, Bohras, etc.] person in the west who speaks good about these thugs.

samaj mein aa rahee hai yeh baatain, kay nahin? itna yaad rakhna aap logoun ko koi bachaney walla nahin hein, jitnee bhi aap arboun kay goad mein nachain.

[contribute to the good cause of MQM.] Good cause for whom. MQM's bhutta is definitely a good cause for the thugs.

yeh dunya ko oulou bananein kaa zamana khutum ho chuka hein.

From AKD (who's my client) to all the Memons, Bohras (Tapals for example) to Dadabouys to all of the Agha Khanis openly support MQM and contribute to the good cause of MQM.

could be che - he is certainly a walking advert ;)

Re: # 30 Posted by CheGuevara on October 17, 2008 12:57:23 pm

[Bubba are you trying to tell me there is no "gunda gardy" involved during election time in most of rural Pakistan and polls are completely free and fair? If you believe that you are either retarded or dishonest.]

No, I have not said any of those things. Two wrongs do not make it a right.

Maybe two wrongs make it a right in Korangi, where innocent mohajirs are being tortured by MQM thugs, but in the civilized world pakis have to learn to respect other's opinions, and call a wrong where they see one.

[If you look at Pakistan's position up till 1971, it was in a much better position than it is now.]

agreed, and now I would expect a mohajir to take credit immediately.

[The Pakistani state survived initially because of the Mohajir industrialists who immigrated to Pakistan, ]

granted, but not the urdu pseaking thugs. if you want to hide under memon's and bhora's, none of them called themselves as mohajirs. they used to shun the urdu pseakers, because of their despicable mannerism.

how many memons or bhoras, lived or do live on Burns Road?

mostly memons grabbed all those hindu buildings and never paid a dime to anybody. And you call these "chors" as great industrialists.

Clif I think it could be an mqmite posing as a moron to discredit the opposition hmmm

barrister i wouldnt bother responding to that, if he is serious then he is insane. Let it go.

che i think trolls are typically smarter ..... in either case he was good for a laugh :)

Re: # 31 Posted by barristerakc on October 17, 2008 1:03:10 pm

[- hum say jalnay waloon ka moon kala :) ]

hum kiya jalain gay, bhai aap lougoun kas moun kaala hee hain.....:) just wait on ahmedmadani to come on this site to validate your dark skin...

it is only people who chose to be corrupt started calling themselves as mohajir, to get some sympathy from the local sindhi muslims.actually the local pakis were calling the new commers as "panah geers"

bubba seriously you need to get a grip. There are very legitimate criticisms to be made of MQM, however it cant be pure coincidence that people with strong "political opinions" against the MQM eventually turn out to be foaming at the mouth racists like yourself.

Re: # 32 bubba, are you for real? thanks for making our points valid...!

cliff I think its a troll

Re: # 28 Posted by cliftonbridge on October 17, 2008 12:53:57 pm

1. [lol....are you completely insane?]

urdu speakers continue to be the best bureaucrat in paki land, and they were the one who introduced "rushwat khouri" in pakistan. "rushwat" is something a city dweller does. it just is illogical to place the inception of this corrupt practice of the land owning class.

strictly speaking even MAJ was a mohajir, although he would not define himself as such. it is only people who chose to be corrupt started calling themselves as mohajir, to get some sympathy from the local sindhi muslims. actually the local pakis were calling the new commers as "panah geers"

the panjo and passer-e-zameen's logic :) they will die fighting eachother - hate mongers and nothing but THICK.
As far as herd behavior is concerned, Panjos are best at it.

MQM is here to stay and rule in our areas - hum say jalnay waloon ka moon kala :)

"of course it means as you say {Bubba democracy means you count people votes.}. once it is casted of free will. with MQM's gunda gurdy there never was and there never will be free will."

Bubba are you trying to tell me there is no "gunda gardy" involved during election time in most of rural Pakistan and polls are completely free and fair? If you believe that you are either retarded or dishonest.

"And who were in this shitty government? since the beginning. Mohajirs, of course."

If you look at Pakistan's position up till 1971, it was in a much better position than it is now. The country was much moderate (even though I despise that word) as well being far more stable financially. The Pakistani state survived initially because of the Mohajir industrialists who immigrated to Pakistan, it continued to survive because of the army's carte blanche. However it is still laughable if you think a few bureaucrats and seths had control over the governance of entire Pakistan.

The rest of your posts descends into hollow "my opinion" crap, you seem to have some very bigotted opinions.

Re: # 26 Posted by barristerakc on October 17, 2008 12:42:46 pm

mohajiroun kee cicular logic pay qurbaan jaoun. you must be a bihaari?

did you not know with mohajir gunda gurdy every gadha would vote for MQM. this is exactly what herds do. BTW, would you call a group of ghadhaas as herd?

1. Pakistan has shit governance that goes without saying.]
And who were in this shitty government? since the beginning. Mohajirs, of course

lol....are you completely insane? yes muhajirs have been running the punjabi baluchi or pushtoon provinical govts not to mention the entire central govt since the inception of pakistan. Maybe in lala land.

2. "with MQM's gunda gurdy there never was and there never will be free will"

I see. So basically you dont believe in democracy if the party you dont like wins (this was my point arjun).

Re: # 22 Posted by barristerakc on October 17, 2008 12:04:06 pm

array bhai barristerakc sahib, kiyoun lambhi lambhi chor rahey ho?

urdu speakers always called themselves as Mohajirs since day one. they were entrapped within JI and their anti-Pakistan stand. JI with it's failed politics could do nothing else, but stir up the lasaani argument between urdu and sidhi.

unsuspecting mohajirs (including biharis from former East Pakistan) took the bait, and went down the path of hatred towards their adopted country. Incidentally, they still have the same attitude towards their new adopted homelands in the west.

being a mohajir does not mean being a gypsy. Or does it?

@bubba, live in your dreams! the educated Mohajirs support MQM more then anyone else - it's a false assumption that they do not - just because they don't come in MQM gatherings does not mean they do not vote for MQM.

Re: # 19 Posted by cliftonbridge on October 17, 2008 9:58:50 am

of course it means as you say {Bubba democracy means you count people votes.}. once it is casted of free will. with MQM's gunda gurdy there never was and there never will be free will.

[Pakistan has shit governance that goes without saying.]

And who were in this shitty government? since the beginning. Mohajirs, of course.

[BTW im sure your opposition to mqm has nothing to do with your prejudice against urdu speaking people as evident by your ignorant posts.]

My opinion is not what the so-called educated mohajirs are seeking. They want freedom from MQM's terror and JI's islamic zanjeer, which will be difficult for some in paki-land to understand.

have you not heard the latest slogan "Pakistan say Zinda Bhago" I wonder who started this kind of sloganeering. Maybe someone from the urdu speaking community.

#23

yeah but on this thread its other people dissing the democratically elected gvernment of karachi, not me :)

#21 Posted by cliftonbridge on October 17, 2008 12:00:07 pm

no..it was a lesson for you...it doesn't matter how bad your choice ends up being, what matters that it was your choice..and you have a chance to do something about it...

Tereitorial identity gained popularity in the 1970's. It was an alternative to the ideal of Muslim nationalism that lay scattered after the parition of 1971. A Pakistani had always had a doublt identity. As a Muslim he belonged to the "umma". As a Pakistani he belonged to the "millat" - a term that us a synonym for nation. Whereas the umma explained Pakistan's eastern border with India, the millat did so for the western borders with other Muslim countries. Bhutto now added a third community, the "qaum" to which a Pakistani was suppose to belong. He took qaum, or people, as an ethnic-territorial unit, identifying four qaum in
Pakistan. He took qaum or people, as an ethnic-territorial unit, identigying four qaum in Pakistan, which coincided with the four provinces: the Pakistan, Sindh, NWFP and Baluchistan.Being a Punjabi, Sindhi, Pakhtun or Baluchi was no longer considered to be in opposition to a Pakistani
national identity. Analougous to the two nations theory, one could coin this ideology the threefold identity theory as it brings togather the attachment to the three communities of "umma, millat,and qaum" into one national identity.

A more commonly used term for the same phenomenon was "nationality theory" which according to Eqbal Ahmed in Pakistani context, arguing that the place of the provinces in Pakistan was similar to the nationalities in the Soviet Union. The Nationality Theory also enabled one to see Mohajirs as a flawed and in-between category, a people with neither history nor a sense of territorial attachment, urban, on the move and unreliable. Interestingly, I found
an example of this idea of the uprooted Mohajir in Benazir Bhutto's autobiography donated to me by a mamu. When BB is confronted with a marriage proposal from the family of Asif
Zardari she ponders over his credentials, listing as one of his positive points that

" He is from Sindh, so he knows out customs and counrtesies. He's not a rootless phenomenon like
the urban professional people who can pack their bags and go anywhere. He's a rural, with commitments to hsi family and tribe" (Bhutto 1988:354)." without a sense of lotalty is, of course the Mohajir the urban migrant. The new state ideology was put into practice in several ways, such as the introduction of Sindhi as the provincial langauge. A "quota system" regulating access to government jobs and educational institutions on the basis of ethnicity was implemented. In Sindh, this reservations on the basis of ethnicity was implemented. In Sindh, this reservation program distinguished between Sindhis and Mohajirs. More-over, Mohajirs like other groups who did not identify as
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pakhtoons or Balochis were asked to assimilate. They were expected to learn Sindhi and prove their loyalty to Sindh -it's language, culture and history. This ofcourse deemed the way for Mohajirs to question the PPP's commitment to the Pakistani ideal of Muslim
fraternity and to argue that Mohajirs had made sacrifices for Pakistan, not Sindh and that they had come to Pakistan to live in dignity as first-class citizens and never to bow for despot again, be it a Brahman or a Sindhi landlord. Yet the reaction, culminating in the emergence of the MQM, was much more complex than a plain rejection of the nationality
theory.

#20

See where you are going? Not really. Unless you were explaining the meaning of "democracy" to bubba.

#16 Posted by cliftonbridge on October 17, 2008 8:57:02 am


2. Pakistanis have been plagued with shit leadership


1. You go to a restaurant..you order a sandwich..turns out to be a crap sandwich.
2. you're in prison and your only option is a crap sandwich..

either way, you ate a crap sandwich...but one of the two scenarios is always better...see where i'm going with this?

Bubba democracy means you count people votes. Governance means you provide people with protection from thugs who intimidate them.

Pakistan has shit governance that goes without saying. Does that mean they shouldnt have democracy ?

BTW im sure your opposition to mqm has nothing to do with your prejudice against urdu speaking people as evident by your ignorant posts.

Re: # 2

what confusing thoughts? urdu speakers are all over local american mosques to show themselves as holier than thou. urdu speakers can be generalized into two segments, one who are regular masjid goers (maybe there are some JI elements there) and those who do not. But, both use the mosque as a fort to work from.

My friend,

you are wrong in this thinking {The fact that MQM with their wanton ways has such a resounding mandate says alot for the paucity of other reasonable options.}

resounding mandate? when the opposition remain intimidated to voice dissent? being a paki, of course, you have no knowledge of what dissent means, now. do you?

mafias and thugs do not need mandates, now, do they? mqm is an organization of thugs and gangsters? are they not?

1. Though you omitted referencs to MQM 's disturbing violence you did a great job presenting the mainstream karachi view of the MQMs rise. To anyone who cares to understand its a good explaination for the overwhelming mandate they have.

2. Pakistanis have been plagued with shit leadership and at least the older generation was also pathetically racist to boot. The misfortunes of Karachi are a reflection of the diverse history, lawlessness, turbulance, violence and intolerance of Pakistani society. However the fact that it has survived and even thrived says alot for the resilience of this crucial melting pot. The fact that MQM with their wanton ways has such a resounding mandate says alot for the paucity of other reasonable options.

3.What we need is a lasting MQM-PPP Aliance in Sind. Mainstreaming the MQM will make them more responsible and less insular. It will also make Karachi and therefore Sind/Pakistan more productive. We can not afford another decade like the 90's specially not now.

Re: # 14
Majumder...
Sunil Mittal is Marwari and Sam Pitroda is Gujju...
Yes Advani, Adani, Jethmalani etc... are Sindhis. You can not associate with any region of current day India (like mohajirs)....
My point was, though BD "Hindus" are dominating West Bengal in almost all areas, there is no such problem in W Bengal now. Mind that the number of BD "Hindus" migrated is much higher in number than Punjabi or Sindhi migration.....

Nkg moshai,

Actually the Hindoo/Sikh immigrants from West Pak have also done very well, contributed lots. Half of Bollywood, LK Advani, Ram Jethmalani, Manmohan Singh, Sunil Mittal (I think???), Sam Pitroda, HG Khorana to name a few.

Regards

Ali...
One nice solution...
why don't you mohajirs induct more and more mohajirs from India- specialy from UP and Bihar? Masadi and couple of other Pakis lost their sleep due to the poor condition of moslems in UP and Bihar...Take more Bihari and UP moslems, and use them for wealth creation...that will help you win number game also....

Re: # 4
Majumder...
Karachi is Pakistani counter part of Mumbai, except elites and urdooooo movie industry....
What this fellow is claiming, Siv Sena also calims same about Mumbai...in terms of actual wealth creation, it should not be that much.....


Mr. Ali....
The same story for Bengalis in India. East Pakistan got rid of Bengalis, but that included the cream of their society. Still now these migrants are dominating in most sphere of life in India (including latest Nobel Lauriet from India Amartya Sen).....

doosri baat , Pakistan aik Zariee mulk hey, or Textile ki industry is ka main source or income hey, humaan naheen andaza , ya youn keh leen keh sar dast humaray paas inki koi figure naheen , magar suna hey 65-70% kamai yahan hi say hooti hey

waisay Sialkot, Gujrarnwala, Wazirabad, Faisalabad, Lahore, Peshawar [ Matchis bananay kay karkhanay ] Gujrat waghaira waghaira wooh sheher heen , jehan say EXPORT hooti hey, haan Karachi Bandergah hoonay ki wajah say apni aik munfarid or mustehqam haisiyat rekhata hey , magar yeh tamam sheher Sindh meeen naheen.

Kaheen aisaa to naheen, Bank ka Cashier , Pooray Bank ki doulat ka dawydaar ban reha hoo....??

Re: # 7

janab-e-man , yeh figures aap ko kahan say mileen....??


humarai naqis talash humeen

http://www.sbp.org.pk/reports/annual/arfy07/annex_index.htm


jahan say hum bey public finance ki yeh file download ki


http://www.sbp.org.pk/reports/annual/arfy07/Stats/Chap4.pdf


or iskay adad-o-shumar kay mutabik


4.4 Consolidated Provincial Receipts and Expenditures

........................................FY07.... FY08
I. Total Revenue Receipts ....... 542.5... 657.2 heen


in meen soobon ka hissa

4.5 Provincial Receipts and Expenditures

...............FY07..... FY08
Punjab ....... 276.3...... 356.2
Sindh ....... 157.2...... 176.6
NWFP ....... 66.1....... 80.6
Balochistan.... 42.9....... 43.8


Dikhaya geyaa hey ....


Hum nay ismeen say cheeda cheeda iqtabasat bayan kiyee heen

iska table 4.1 Federal Government Revenue Receipts ki poori tafseel deyta hey.

taman yani direct taxes kitney heen, indirect kitney,welfare , wealth, capital value, waghaira waghaira , tamam source per kitney jama huwya .

wooh tamam table bohot lambay heen, so sirf us hissay say jahan Provancial Recipts Province vice theen yeh wahan say liyee heen hum ney.



Hum kehna to naheen chahtey per yeh humara mushahida hey, keh yeh wooh qoum hey joo apnay aap ko dhooka deytee hey, or uskay liyee apnay aap say jhoot boltee hey.

mr.ali chishti,
as its quoted by you that,
"In 1969, he turned reigns over to the only second Shiite after Liaquat to lead Pakistan, General Yahya Khan."
can you explain who liaquat you were refered to as shiite?you might have mistakenly quoted liaquat as a shiite or something, bcoz as far as i know he was not.
regards.

Mohajir nationalist movement as primarily a popular movement aka "street nationalism". Although the MQM origininated in a student organization established on university andcollege campuses, it was forced to leave educational institutions and began campaigning in the streets. MQM is also credited to ridicule and mock cultural and Islamic modernist values.In this place it started a new democratic movement in South Asia.

Pakistan is a peculiar case of ethononationalism. Rather than a state, the Pakistan nation is rooted in refashioned primordial attachments or in the worlds of Clifford Geertz "assumed givens" of social existence. Pakistan was never meant to be an "unambiguous" project. MAJ on 11 August 1947 called for equality and secularism - something MQM has had fought for over the last 20-25 years of her existence.

MQM also came up because of the authoritarian modernization of the state leading to a reformulation of the Pakistani nation longer opposed to ethnic loyalty. This was
"unfavorable" to Mohajirs, who were not recognized as a separate ethnic group on par with Punjabis, Sindhis, Pakhtoons and Balochis. In reaction to this, however, MQM did not oppose this new definition of the nation but adopted it by proclaiming Mohajirs an ethnic group of it's own. Moreover, it did so by appropriating the Sindhi nationalist passions of rebellion against the center.

@Majumdar,

1997-98 % 1998-99 % 2000-2001 %
Sindh 169 b 67.5%, 171 b 68.2b & 189.461 67.7%
Punjab 57.63 23% 65.32 24.5 77.912 26.21
NWFP 16.746 6.7% 21.602 8.1 22.046 7.42
Baloch 7.134 2.8% 8.323 3.1 7.800 2.62
(Source: Combined Finance and Revenue Accounts, Government of Pakistan)

Sindh’s share in taxes (2007-8)
Direct Taxes 67.75%
In come Tax 86.40 (86.40% of the Income Tax)
Wealth Tax 66.21
Capital gain Tax 32.60
Workers Welfare Fund 45.53
Indirect Taxes 68.32%
Customs 83.75%
Sales Tax 69.10%
Federal Excise duty 39.40
(Source: Planning and Development Department GOS)

Sindh’s share in natural Resources % of total in Pakistan

Gas 48%
Electricity 39%
Petrol 69%
Coal 84%

Tahmed sahib,

Apart from the erroneous conclusions on revenues, I dont see anything bigoted or racists in what the author has written.

Regards

more M(ay 12)QM propaganda!! shameless thugs.

Ali sahib,

Can't comment on much of the rest of the article but the argument that "Karachi contributes 68% of the revenue" is rubbish." It is merely the collection point, not the source of money. If I understand correct the bulk of public revenues in Pak is in the form of indirect taxes (excise, customs, sales tax) which in the ultimate analysis comes from the customers, it is merely routed through customs office and corporate HQs which are usually located in the commercial capital and the main port, which in Pakistan's case happens to be Karachi.

What Karachi has a right to is that it should receive at least its popultion-wise shares of the total expenditure, maybe some expert can throw some light on that.

Regards

This is only Part-II as such comments are better held off until a conclusion is released by Mr. Chishti.
Looking forward to read more from you Mr. Chishti

Religion is never the uniting factor through world history - it is divisive. Urdu speaker learned that the hard way.

great work of art mate!