Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu?

Re: # 433; murad sahib

the conclusions I draw from the swarming interacts posted by a certain group in response to every single article by you are as follows:

1 - there is no such defined group called 'hindus' ... if there ever were, they were always defined as such by 'others'

2 - they lack a 'national' identity unlike other 'groups', hence feel very undermined when someone tries to 'define' them and their 'confines' ... to them, there are no 'confines'.

3 - essentially all 'natives' that over the centuries of recent history decided not to 'join' another faith/cultural tradition ... they tend to label as 'hindu' ... hence the assertions by some that Hindu=Indian!

4 - they lack self-esteem, same way as an increasingly large part of the Islamic world do at present ... it is chasing the 'glories of the past' ... especially when the gobbledigook itself doesn't have a future

5 - thankfully for 'hindus', however defined, it seems easy enough to cast aside the gobbledigook elements (though the initial takers are 'reverting' to their roots en masse) ...hence their relatively easy adoption of 'other' cultures, APPARENTLY superior to their own ... examples (chronological) .. Muslim, Christian, English and now globalisation (western expansionism)

Re: # 84

Dear nb

I think a few definitions are very necessary.

The tribals in India with a well established culture and religious tradition were around long before Christianity and Islam. Also long before Hinduism evolved into its present form (you might find my Chowk article on the evolution of Hinduism dated September 7, 2006 of interest).

If tribals do not follow the Vedas, do not worship Vishnu, Shiv or other Hindu gods and do not have Brahmin priests with Brahmin rituals and prayers, how can they be called Hindu??

Re: # 385

Just back from the wilds. I entirely agree.

How have the interacts, interesting as they may be, drifted away from the subject of the article.

We need to just discuss whether the tribal people of our subcontinent who worship animist deities and no Hindu deity and do not follow brahminical rituals should be considered Hindu or not.

their eminent doom

tahmed writes "o Barak is going to bring barkat with him.
Barak is going to broker all kinds of peace deals around the world."

Little wonder that Pakistan is where it is at with an educated class that has the thinking skills that tahmed possesses. Barack is the ultimate manipulation to rescue the global capitalist system from collapse, the good news is, he will only buy them some more time, there eminent doom leads them to undertake such conspiracies and manipulations which only buys them time and little else

Have a nice day and take it easy

TNI Masadi

Ref dost_mittar #428

[I need that plant and will start looking for it in my backyard.:) ]

I threw my back out lifting something heavy two days back. I need it as much as, if not more than, you!

If I were still in the US, I would have gone up to New York City! I had to return to India after my visit and it had to happen while I am in India! :-(

harimau:

I need that plant and will start looking for it in my backyard.:)

tahmed#32:

tahmed saheb:
By now, it must be evident that, even on this board, my "jaundiced" view of Islam is the mainstream view held about Islam by both Muslims and Non-Muslims, except for you and bulleya; in case of bulleya, I suspect that he really has not read that much about Islam or Islamic history; but in your case, it's more a matter of conviction, which is fine and you have been quite consistent about your beliefs.

With respect to casteism, I am afraid that it was embedded too strongly in the Indian DNA to be cured by Islam or even Sikhism; a Muslim convert not only took his caste with him to the new religion but also created new castes, such as Syeds and Ashrafs; and poor achhoots converting to Sikh religion found that they had to build their own Mazhabi gurudwaras, just as they had to build their own Valmiki mandirs before conversion. If the rigidities of caste have become somewhat less opressive, it is mostly due to the more recent reformers, such as Gandhi, Ambedkar and Nehru, who, unlike you, chose to confront what they did not like in their religion instead of shouting that there it all the fault of the pandits and pujaris and not of their religion.
And in case you haven't noticed, Hindus outside Punjab also do not take bath any more after seeing what you call achoot (in India, you would be lucky to have your bones in tact if you call someone that today!); indeed, while Mazhabis and dalits in Punjab still lack political power, a dalit is ruling in UP and is making Brahmins take off their shoes before they enter her office to prostate before her.

On a different board, some 4 years ago I posted a news item.

It talks about the treatment meted out to proselytizers in an Islamic country.

This refresher on what happened ought to shut up Mullah32 once and for all about how Islam is a religion of peace. But that would require Mullah32 to actually face up to and admit the truth,

#391 Posted by harimau on July 3, 2004 8:32:27 am

I suppose Nader Thiasi wouldn`t like to see this in India. After all, if one calls oneself an Islamic nation, then you can do anything!

`We slit his throat for propagating Christianity`

Reuters
Posted online: Friday, July 02, 2004 at 1338 hours IST

Kabul, July 2: Afghanistan`s Taliban guerrillas say they cut the throat of a Muslim cleric after they discovered him propagating Christianity and warned foreign aid workers they would face similar treatment if they did the same.

Taliban spokesman Abdul Latif Hakimi telephoned Reuters on Thursday to say that the guerrillas killed Maulawi Assadullah in the remote Awdand district of Ghazni province the previous day.

``A group of Taliban dragged out Maulawi Assadullah and slit his throat with a knife because he was propagating Christianity,`` he said.

``We have enough evidence and local accounts to prove that he was involved in the conversion of Muslims to Christianity.``

Provincial officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Hakimi charged that a number of foreign aid agencies were also involved in spreading Christianity in Afghanistan, where the adherents to the religion are in a tiny minority.

``We warn them that they face the same destiny as Assadullah if they continue to seduce people,`` he said.

The fundamentalist Taliban, which was overthrown by US-led forces in late 2001, has declared a holy war against the continuing foreign troop presence in the country and views aid workers as legitimate targets in this battle.

The Taliban has killed at least 33 foreign aid workers since the start of last year, including Frenchwoman Bettina Goislard of the UN refugee agency, who was gunned down in the town of Ghazni, the provincial capital, in November.

Re: # 377
Hari...

"Anyway, how come no Quranists have answered my repeated requests for the meanings of certain verses? ..."
The answer is through the actions of moslems - islamic barbarism accross the world....

Tahmed sahib:

"Why Masadi..."

He is a regressive force and will inhibit evolution of knoweldge, Islamic thoughts and knowledge. He is willing to take these thoughts and knowledge back to almost infinite time in the past, but leaves no room for evolution to toward infinite time in the future.

Open human mind is capable of comprehending far more knowledge, only if we allow it to. Humpty and Dumpty have routinely fallen all the time, especially when King's horses (knowledge in this case) moves on.

He resorts to Mills & Co. to find the most obvious answers that even a person inspecting the sewage pipes in the Wall Street can tell you. He is not the first one to confine or write off freedom of expression in the name of one thing or the another.

Mr. Masadi: The name Barak has the same root as the urdu word "barkat" and the english word "broker", this root being the arabic word "al buruk", which means gift.

So Barak is going to bring barkat with him.
Barak is going to broker all kinds of peace deals around the world.

So please no negative campaigning against Barak, President of the USA.

Ahmad sahib, you should have learned how to read in first grade, but alas the American system has kept you functionally illiterate.

I have added a part 3 of the Barack Conspiracy, to the ilogs, check it out and contact Anil for reading lessons if you want to learn how to read Hindlish, HBS style

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

#420 mr. cheema: thanks for writing. have a great day!
:-)

Re: # 382; St. Tahmed ... various

now sir ... where were we? ... ah .. yes, I remember! I'll make the following points to your interacts, which incidently are large collections of words without much substance ... but I won't want you to have the 1:0 satisfaction!

1 - there are many fine people who openly accept Islam for what it is ... and then "pick and chose" elements that suit their conscience ... they never make big claims of following the Quran or Sunnah or anything in particular ... in fact most people in most religions happen to fall into this category ... the thing is they never 'claim' that their Islam is THE Islam ... they are generally humble about it and get on with life

2 - then there is people like your self .... who claim openly that their Islam is THE Islam .... that is akin to starting a new sect within Islam (hence the St. Tahmed ... if you carry on, you'd be a prophet one day soon) ... these people are smug, arrogant, elitist and consider THEIR interpretation to be the most valid one (ever heard of sectarianism!!) ... the only reason they are not sectarian in the sense that word is understood is that they lack the guts to take on the "establishment" and coccoon themselves to the confort of THEIR Islam ... they are NO LESS self-righteous then the people they supposedly oppose

3 - they also have a strange sense of "right and wrong" that is very different from what has been practiced in the name of Islam for the last 1400 years ... but they still insult their God and Prophet for being completely impotent in preventing any 'distortions' to the very 'original' faith

4 - People like Urstruly sahib are clear on their take on Islam ... which incidently happens to be the same by the "mainstream" over the last 1400 years ... and he has my respect for that

5 - people like hamidm sahib, similarly, don't deny what Islam actually is, they choose to 'pick and choose' knowing well it matters nought one bit if they did or didn't; however they are merely respecting their 'cultural heritage' and do what they do in the interest of "cultural solidarity" .... I personally would describe my self closer to this group ... without the baggage of "faith" of course

6 - I had some respect for your point of view until you started this 'sectarianism' and a sense of self-righteousness .... to me you are no different from the "mullahs" you so despise ... only you don't have the courage to state your inner thoughts in full public view for all to see but hide behind your self-righteousness nevertheless

7 - now please stop sulking like a two year old; I won't apologise to you since I donot believe I said anything disrespectful to you personally ... your 'ideas and faith' are fair game since that is how you present yourself here ... and if I can't disagree with anyone here and put forward my side of the argument, why discuss anything in the first place?

mr. masadi #411 Alas, if only I could understand what you are saying.. :-(