Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu?

re: Khurram # 271

Huh. I thought that point was too unsettling to make here. I was going to privately discuss that with a friend. But since it is already out in the open, let me state the fear.

In crudest form, it may be that getting rid of Prophet Muhammad and his life as the basis for interpreting the Quran is actually the same thing as getting rid of the Quran itself, and making it say whatever one oneself wants.

In other words, hadiths may be unreliable, but doing away with them will lead to total free-for-all to everyone to claim/put forth as Quranic their own ratioality, in advancement of their own values and interests.

That's always the biggest danger of interpretationism. That tendency has been kept in check somewhat because one could always go back to the Prophet Muhammad as the gold standard.

That's something Quranists may want to keep in mind. Otherwise, this approach will lead to endless quarrels, name-calling of one another, and argumentation by way of each person trying to impose his or her 'interpretation' on others, by any means possible.

Just a thought. Ultimately, the philosophical basis of Islam concerns only the Muslims, while non-Muslims must deal with only the religion that gets practised and translated in human actions and social structures (which is precisely what's true for Hinduism and all other religions).

Re: # 276

tahmed,

.... you are still trying to obfuscate .... we were talking about 2008 YTD returns and amana is right down there with all other funds of its type ... it says so right at the top of its web page ...... here it is for your convenience:

As of 10/17/2008 Symbol Price Change YTD
Amana Income AMANX $23.50 $-0.03 -23.92%
Amana Growth AMAGX $16.56 $ 0.00 -28.00%


..... stop clutching at straws to prove your point (whatever that might be) ............ by the way did you do any research on CII and the Federal Sharia Court ?

1Safe #285, those are all excellent ideas. As some Hindus begin to think about their religion, instead of just taking it for granted, it will be great to have those points in mind.

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Romair, I meant novel in an applied, realistic sense, as practised by significant numbers of people so as to make a difference in the lives of others.

#282 Posted by bulleya on

Bulleya, I am ready to discuss philosophy of Islam? What is it? Where it is written? And what it says. And how do you know what is part of Islam and what not?

But if you rely on Kuran to be sole basis of Islam I am ok with that, if it is as short as you say, we can discuss each verse of it here?

People who were killed, burned, and driven out of their homes in Orissa were not padres but average persons who happend to be Christians.
Talk about offering justifications for jihad against infidels.

Since our 'lotus like' Hindu/Indian friends of Pakistan are not only trying to reform Pakistan, but Islam itself, I thought it was about time that a Pakistani returned the favor.

Here is what I propose for reforming Hinduism.

1. Ishwar must be liberated from Indian nationalism. That which is supra-universal cannot be brought down to universal level, let alone, national level.

2. Indian nationalism must be released from the clutches of Hindu theology.
This will make it easier for non-Hindu Indians to identify with their country without feeling that are getting away from 'their understanding' of God.

3. Since so many educated Indians are declaring themselves as atheists, because they cannot reconcile with flying monkey brigades, Hindu theology must be distinguished from Hindu mythology.

4. Human beings maybe born 'pretty' or 'ugly', 'smart' and 'not so smart'. What humans are not born as are 'good' and 'bad', ‘high’ and ‘low’. Therefore, no such essential qualities can be attributed to persons. People are 'good' or 'bad' because they are a collection of impressions life and circumstances have made on them. Proof of this is in studies done on twins separated at birth. Therefore, it is imperative that the cast system be abolished entirely. Because this cast system causes nothing but misery and humiliation on people based on factors they themselves have no control over.

5. Laxmi puja must be turned into Laxmi light puja. While it is necessary to acknowledge the necessity of wealth, it should not be taken to extremes. One should not burn a bride because she brought insufficient dowry: one should not kill females before they are born, just because they may become a 'financial burden' later on.

Re: # 283 I reject those assumptions regarding the Quran.

Your rejection makes a blind bit of difference to it all....

Khurram writes "Something to think about for Quran-only advocates,.."

Total strawmen arguments, full of assumptions of the hadith mongers regarding the Quran. I reject those assumptions regarding the Quran.

For the hadith mongers read this http://hadith.rationalreality.com

Have a nice day and take it easy

TNI Masadi

dost-mittar #: "I believe that Islam is what is taught at Deoband, Al Azhar and Qoom and not by some soft-sellers at chowk...."

what was islam, before these places came into existence?....

...this is where you go wrong, and why your comments have no philosophical basis of discussion......you say you are discussing a religion or a philosophy (take your pick) called islam, yet you are discussing deoband, al-azhar, qom (though i seriously doubt, whether you know, even, what is studied and discussed there)......

what you are doing is trying to discuss a social issue (current opinions/practices of muslims in this day's time) and equating it with a philosophical concept called islam.....these two could be identical or they could be, totally, contradictory......or both.......

it is like discussing the policies of vladimir putin and stating that you are discussing philosophies of karl marx....

you are, automatically, equating the two to be the same, without willing to get into a debate on whether they are the same or not....

it is an indication of your lack of knowledge of the subject......yet you have very solid views on it......

lack of knowledge of something + lack of willingness to debate it + very solid views on the subject = bigotry.....(or at least leads to it)......

which is, probably, why some people have refered to your views as such........now, if you can prove that what you say is a part of islam philosophically, then your views become factual........but you have, yourself, stated you are not doing that, nor interested in doing that.......

Romair #279
Very good explanation of why Hadith is relevant but not completely and totally reliable as a source for law and government.

Hamidumdum Sahib,
I am in the difficult position of having to vouch for Tahmed Sahib's veracity. Yes, because of the shariah-compliance stipulation, the Amana Fund that avoids financial stocks, pork production, gambling, and prostitution stocks, has actually posted a hefty gain. Of course, not all of the Amana Funds are shariah-compliant and therefore most did post losses in the 30%-40% range.

The good by-product of the shariah compliance was that the fund avoided financial stocks and that in itself helped it achieve success - talk about good luck.
Salim

kaalchakra #: "Quran as the sole philosophical basis of Islam, with no reference to Prophet Muhammad, is a breathtakingly novel idea"

...its neither novel nor breathtaking.....it is stated in the quran, itself in a chapter titled, "The Feast".......

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (The Feast, Quran 5:3)

...this was revealed to muhammad (if you are a muslim)/stated by him (if you are a non-muslim) after his last sermon.....shortly after which he died......

...it clearly states that the religion was completed, at this time, as per the philosophy of islam.....there is no mention of need of individuals coming hundreds of years, afterwards, writing books on hadith (which are, themselves, more voluminous than the quran), in this verse......it clearly and categorically states, that islam is complete, on this day......

hence the quran describes, as much of the life of muhammad, as needed, in the quran.....if more was needed, one has to believe, more would have been described......it would not have been left to individuals coming 200 years later to describe.....

...quran is a very compact and simple book for any tom, dick and harry to read and interpret....this is how it does away with the clergy......however, the books of hadith are larger.....and then the layers of literature referencing them is gigantic......which requires a clergy.......

in addition, quran's vagueness allows it to be flexible and be interpreted in many ways.....this, totally, undermines the authoritarian guidelines, which a clergy requires to establish itself......the hadith provide that.....

hence, you will, rarely, if ever, see islamic clergy, willing to discuss anything solely on the basis of the quran.......they will, always, move towards hadith and what other individuals have written on top of hadith......

quran points people in certain directions, and allows their common sense to fill in the gaps.....this common sense is to come from the combined intellect of the society, at any time........hadith give exact rulings on, even, miniscule affairs, which takes away the common sense aspect of the society......

hadith can only be used as a possible basis of history......they cannot be used for jurisprudence, law, etc. in any islamic society.....simply because they are the words of various individuals - bukhari etc. who wrote what they thought muhammad may have done.......while, religiously and philosophically speaking, in islam, quran is the word of God.......

there is no way bukhari etc. could know whether muhammad said that or not.....each hadith has a verbal trail of individuals, vouching that muhammad said that......this trail expands over multiple countries and generations and hundreds of years, for each hadith....it is all heresay........

there are thousands of hadith........which means a permutation of tens of thousands of individual lines of reporting, which should have existed accurately.........and not a single word should have changed during the passage of those oral text!......

if you say something today.......what are the odds that someone can prove, much less quote exactly what you said 250 years from now, in another continent?.......unless u wrote it down, and it could be traced back to you.......

so, even if we assume the books of hadith actually fill a gap in the quran, even then, their accuracy cannot be proven....

take any hadith from a hadith book.......it will have trial of names, over 200 years of how it was passed onto bukhari......ask any muslim if they have any proof whether the names in that trail existed.....and whether their is any written documentation on whether they actually passed on this hadith.......

the only explanations i have seen stat that such and such scholar thinks bukhari's book on hadith is accurate and genuine.......however, even if this is taken to be true, they were not needed to complete islam, as per the quranic verse i quoted above....

thanks rabia. i shall check it out later (have to do some real work now).

ps: i could not find the article itself - either because i didnt spend enough time looking, or because WP website does not display articles in this sub-section (Personal Finance of the Business Section).

hamidm: OK, i found it in the paper copy of the Washington Post, Business Section page F3 in article titled "Islamic Principles Pave Way to Top for Amana Funds" by Christopher Condon, and I quote:

"Amana Income gained an annual average of 9.7% through Thursday, best among funds that focus on large companies considered undervalued based on earning or other financial measures, according to Morningstar."

You can read the full article by going to a library (if such a thing exists in Michigan), or by going to an appropriate website including Amana itself.

I'll grant you that I had not focussed on the time frame (which is a 5 year period, while it has indeed dropped over the past year), so you are right in that. But rest assured, i leave shameless lying to my betters on chowk.

Re: # 272

tahmed,

.... you can check amana funds like any other fund and their website shows a ytd return drop of 28% .......let's stop making up stuff