Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu?

mr. anil: i hope you are doing well. why is mr. masadi sitting on a wall? why doesnt chowk staff offer him a chair?

pinku jee #410 if one goes by the ethnic grocery stores, the persians stores i have seen are way ahead of both indian and pakistani stores in terms of cleanliness of stores and the grooming of the shop staff. but thanks anyway for the education on the origins of the word achoot.

Masadi sahib:

Masadi sahib's nonsense is "hideen knowledge" only to him. He, like humpty dumpty, is sitting on a wall, waiting for a great fall. He lacks the logic to understand if knowledge can be so pre-historic, and it cannot stop at 7th century. Please keep on waiting for your great fall.

re #414: Anil sahib apparently Harvard business school, entrepreneurial knowledge does not recognize the logical distinctions between something being secret knowledge (as in the case of the Bible by fact of the Church restricting access to it up until Martin Luther 'privatized' it and nothing being taken as canon or written during the life of Jesus or recommended by him) and that which is publicly owned in its use from the very start of a buildup of a community, properly shaped and distinct from other discourse, as is the case of the Quran.

Now have a nice day and go climb a wall if you feel frustrated at the inadequacy of your bigotry,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 411

"...The Quran was from the beginning with the people, the Bible on the other hand was the property of the church. That is the BIG difference...."

I can bet that Masadi Sahib is incapable of seeing the contradiction in his above statement. He says "the Quran" was from the beginning with the people, but has no explation why it stopped in 7th Century. Obviously, neither time nor history stopped.

Ref Hamidm various posts and dost_mittar #405

[.... and you would still be worshipping the elephant-nosed god or whoever your ancestors were worshipping before their conversion.]

Hey, be respectful to Lord Ganesha!

Check out the URL below for photos.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/2008/10/21/2008-10-21_elep hantshaped_ganesh_growth_cured_my_il.html

Elephant-shaped Ganesh growth cured my ills, Queens man says
BY NICHOLAS HIRSHON
DAILY NEWS WRITER

Wednesday, October 22nd 2008, 3:52 PM



Sam Lal, in his Jamaica, Queens yard with unusual amaranth plant that resembles Hindu god Ganesh. Lal says arrival of the plant that's not native to area has cured his back ailments.

To most people, the purple flower that sprouted between two concrete slabs in a Queens backyard would be just a hardy vestige of summer.

Sam Lal sees something more.

The Jamaica man is convinced the mysterious blossom is an incarnation of the elephant-headed Hindu god Ganesh - and neighbors and friends are flocking to see it.

The nearly 4-foot-tall flower grew in June and began to resemble an elephant's head and trunk in August. Lal said that the ailments that had plagued him for months disappeared.

"This formation came to heal my illness," the 60-year-old Hindu man said of his relief from pain due to a bone spur near his spine and bulging discs in his neck.

"They say God comes in many forms. I figure this has taken the form of a plant to come into my yard to bless me," said Lal, who immigrated from Guyana three decades ago.

Experts at the Queens Botanical Garden identified the plant as a member of the amaranth family, which is native to Africa, India and southern Central America but not the U.S. Horticulturalists at the garden have never seen an amaranth take an elephant-like shape, garden spokesman Tim Heimerle said.

"For it to have that long trunk like this is not a natural thing," he said.

Lal believes the flower's position - growing through concrete, facing a garage he converted to a prayer space - is evidence of a connection to Ganesh, revered as the Remover of Obstacles.

A manager at a Manhattan uniform company, Lal hurt his back lifting a box and was in pain for 3-1/2 months - but no more.

"I felt that healing power that came with it," he said. "I've lived a religious life all my life. I feel my prayers have been answered through the deities."

Friends and neighbors have already streamed to his 90th Ave. home to see the flower, and Lal said he'd welcome pilgrimages by Hindu faithful.

He knows some people will be skeptical and insisted he did nothing to sculpt the flower.

Heimerle said that wouldn't be possible anyway, because the plant is too fragile.

"Nature is a strange thing, and it's possible it may have just done that spontaneously, but who's to say," Heimerle said.

With the fall chill in the air, Lal fears the flower may die like other amaranths, which are usually killed by winter frost.

"It's a little upsetting," said Lal, who covers the flower with plastic at night to protect it from cold. "It hurts me to know I'll lose it."

DM’s and akcheema’s comments represent valid inquiries. That the message and the messenger are one and the same, is a valid argument, esp. given Quran’s heavy emphasis on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his office.

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tahmed, your smug responses are ill-thought out; also, they raise more questions than they answer. There’s a lot in Quran that you are in denial of. For starters, your claim that Quran treats the Prophet just like any other believer, is flatly negated by Quran itself. One cannot deny the special status assigned to the Prophet (pbuh) in Quran … when it comes to marriage, his wives, intercession, and more. Merely insisting would not make these facts disappear. DM is onto something here ...

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Bulleya (#279): Allah “perfecting religion� and “completing favors� does not necessarily invalidate ahadith. Perfection and completion here may apply to Divine Law, which achieved completion through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Quran invokes laws of nature, mentions some facts, and leaves it up to believers to pursue knowledge. Similarly, Quran praises Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), covers some aspects of his life, and arguably leaves it to believers to learn more about him through various means available.

Role of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not limited to that of only a messenger. Quran declared him only a messenger in the context of non-believers (that is, if people continue to be rebellious, you, Muhammad, are only a messenger). This is perhaps to emphasize that even the Prophet (pbuh) is not allowed to force Islam on others.

However, in the context of believers, his role is expanded beyond that of a simple messenger: He is a messenger who recites to believers Allah’s signs, purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom. Check 62:2 … and note that this message is repeated in several places in Quran. Also, note that in 9:24, Quran declares that Prophet (pbuh) should be dearer to believers than their family, livelihood, etc. There’s much more … but you get the point.

And I don’t think all of Quran is easy to understand. Start with “Alif, Lam, Meem� to appreciate this. Furthermore, Quran has stories and allegories that make one scratch his head. This does not necessarily validate the role of ullema … but it does give credence to those who can delve into deeper meaning of the content of Quran. Admittedly, the issue of who to believe, and to what extent, remains a tricky matter.

All this, however, does not put a blanket seal of approval on all collections of ahadith. Arguably ahadith have their place … but they need to pass the test of Quran. If a hadith negates message of Qruan, it becomes erroneous by default. Note that Quran declares itself The Furqan (The Discriminator, the Criterion to judge).

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Urstruly, this also addresses the hollow “Mirzaee� issue you keep raising. By now you should know Ahmadi-Muslim position. You display willful ignorance and intellectual stubbornness. Mirzaees are not that bad ... you only need to lighten up a bit.

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Hamidm, good catch. As far as I know, Quran does not outline the method of prayers … or circumcision. I think sunnah and/or ahadith are the source of these practices (masadi, is that correct?)

tahmed writes "different versions of the Quran were written. this is not surprising - even the Bible had to be standardized "

The Bible has a completely different history to the history of the Quran. What is understandable is that in order to worship the white man you will equate the babble with the Quran. The Quran was from the beginning with the people, the Bible on the other hand was the property of the church. That is the BIG difference.

You can find almost anything you want to in the so-called "history", whereas the mullah will pick on certain parts, the so called secularists with an axe to grind will pick on others, little wonder that sources removed hundreds of years from the events and surviving in writings of others, multiplied secondary sources are used to grind axes all efforts thus lead to futility. The fact is that both these secularists and the mullahs cannot deal with the Quran as "evidence" both historical in that it predates all of those conjectures and in the form of its content that can be analyzed using modern knowledge. Writing a "book" as our friend HP suggests about his brother, based on the writings of Muslim historians, who base their work on their ideology as well as corrupted sources is no big achievement.

Have a nice day and take it easy and read the article on the Barack conspiracy in my ilog...

TNI Masadi

#409 Posted by tahmed32 on

:-), you think that most hindus do it that way or that they have a Kuran which says so???

Original term was malechch, which is a sanskrit word meaning "one who wishes filth", this word was used for Persians or Arabs (Muslims), because of their lack of cleanliness (no water there, so no need to take bath). And most probably this word was invented by Brahmin forefathers of Sindhi or Kashmiri people.

dm #405: that explanation is certainly consistent with your jaundiced view of islam. look at it this way - if there was no islam, there would have been no sikhism, and you would still be bathing every time an achoot walked past you.

[[
Islamic School Online
Can't Drive Kids to the Mosque? Islamic School with Quran tutoring.
]]

This is the add i see on interact page???

HP#406:

If the Quran was not complete, then Sunna becomes all the more important because they knew what the Prophet would have wanted them to do even if the Quran was not complete.

"I find Urstruly's version more compelling is that this is what inspired Abu Bakr, Omar and others who followed them to spread Islam"

Not fact based. The Quran was not complete when they converted.

It was all about challenging the establishment. Abu Bakr and Umar were known rebels and they joined Mohammed.

tahmed32#401:

Saheb, I have no idea what Rev. Pat Robertson says and have no need to find out, there are far more profound scholars of Islam at this website itself.

The reason that I find Urstruly's version more compelling is that this is what inspired Abu Bakr, Omar and others who followed them to spread Islam far and wide; if it were left to your version of Islam, it would have remained limited to the few sahaba in Medina and you would still be worshipping the elephant-nosed god or whoever your ancestors were worshipping before their conversion.

Btw, Before Mohammed married Khadija, he tried to merry abu talib's daughter or Ali's sister but was refused because he was poor and abu Talib raised him. So he was not really equal in status. Her name was Umme Hani.
These Muslim historians have written this but you will hardly see this info now!

ibne ishaq Sirat Rasul Allah. waqadi...and tabari.

#395 Posted by Maharana

Well My brother is writing a book in Pakistan and he has done research on the subject.(Obviously he will get some fatwa on his head too) Actually, Many Muslim historians have researched this and the info is from their research. It is just that mullah tries to hide the info.

Here is the correct info about the Birds attack on Mecca which akcheema mentioned in one of his post below.

"In 570 AD a Yemeni army of few thousands came to attack Makkah, since the residents of Makkah had no strength to fight, they left their homes and took refuge with their families and clans in nearby hillocks. That raid however could not take place as a disease was brought through the birds, and then the weather became so intolerable that Abraha army of Yemen had to withdraw the siege and go back."

Though most of the Makkans were idolaters but for the most part it was the matter of personal faith, they were quite liberal in their own faith, but for the sake of having leadership-religious as well as economic, they had to strengthen the order established by them after long efforts.

They were hardly bothered when a few among Quraish claimed monotheism, and rejected polytheism. Four such examples in late 6th and early 7th century were of Warqa bin Naufal, Ubaidullah bin Jahash, Usman bin Hawarith, and Zaid bin Amr who abhored polytheism, they wanted to revert to Deen-e- Hanifia which they believed was the original monotheist religion of Abraham and Ishmael. However these people remained week and solitary voices, some of them later converted to Christianity and a few left their family and land of their forefathers and turned ascetic in their search for true religion.