The Capture of Christianity

The very first name that occurs to the student in this connection is that of the Supreme Lord Himself-Ahura-which in the Sanskrit from Asura signifies 'a demon'. The name originally signifies 'the Lord of Life' (from Av. ahu, Skt. asu, life), or the One Life from Whom all proceed. The Sanskrit Asura also signified originally the One Eternal Life, and in the Rig-Veda (in its oldest portions) it is not used in its later degraded signification. In classical Sanskrit the name Purva-devah (earlier Gods) is also used for the Asuras; and the legend has grown up in India that it was these Asuras who had once ruled the Earth, till in later ages they were ousted from their positions by the comparatively more modern Devas (Gods). In the earlier Vedas the epithet Asura is used especially for Varuna, the Ruler of the endless Heavenly Sphere, refulgent by day and shining with innumerable stars at night. Varuna is also the All-pervading Life which ensouls the Creation. He is the Ruler of the Universe, the Lord of Righteousness, the One Being Who has laid down the Law and Order of Nature, and is the Father of All. The one important point to note in this conception of the Vedic Varuna is the great emphasis laid therein on the moral and ethical aspect of this God. Varuna is pre-eminently the Lord of Righteousness. This grand concept of Asura Varuna agrees closely with that of Ahura-Mazda of the earlier Avesta; and very probably the legends in the Brahmanas and in the Epics of the Hindus about conflicts between 'the Gods and the Demons' are but echoes of some religious and national strifes between the two branches of the Aryans in the prehistoric days.

The Avestic Daeva is the natural complement of Ahura. Originally 'the Shining One', this word retain its pristine purity practically throughout the history of Indian languages. But in the Avesta the word is never used in its old signification of 'Deity', even in the earliest portions, and in the later Avesta it invariably means 'Demon'. In the Veda however, we find the word used a couple of times as an epithet of the demons.

Of individual deities there are but few that have suffered this inversion. The most notable of these is Indra, one of the greatest Deities in the Vedic Pantheon. In the Avesta he is the chief helpmate of the Evil One. It is very remarkable that of two of the most important Gods of the Vedas-Varuna and Indra-one should have become in Iran the supreme Being, Ahura, while the other became the most important lieutenant of the Evil One.

But what is still more remarkable is that one of Indra's epithets-Vrtrahan (Bahram, the Slayer of the Demon-foe)- an epithet which is pre-eminently his-should have continued all through the history of Iranian Religion to be the name of one of the greatest of the Deities, Verethraghna (later Bahram). The Bahram Yasht (Yasht, xiv) where his deeds are recorded is a fine epic, and some of the achievements therein recorded remind us of the deeds of Indra mentioned in the Veda.

Vayu (the Wind, a name which is identically the same in both the languages) is another of the ancient Aryan deities. Haug says that 'he is the only Vedic Deity who is mentioned by name in the Gathas', a rare distinction indeed, if Haug's interpretation be true; but modern scholars like Bartholomae have cast a doubt upon Haug's rendering of that passage.

Nairyosangha is the Messenger of the Supreme Ahuramazda to mankind. He appears before the Great Saviours when the time has arrived for their manifestation in the world. One of his special tasks is 'the guarding of the seed of Zarathushtra' from which the future Redeemers of mankind are to be born. He is also said to have helped at the creation of the first human pair, the Mashyo-Mashyoi. These last two functions of his seem to have come into prominence during the Pahlavi period, but in the Avesta he represents some kind of Divine Fire, and in the Veda, under the name Narashamsa (he who is praised of mankind) he also represents the Sacred Fire.

Armaiti is the Spirit of the Earth, and also of Divine Wisdom and Grace, both in the Avesta and in the Veda. She has the rank of an Amesha-Spenta (a Holy Immortal, corresponding to an Archangel in Christianity) in the Zoroastrian Hierarchy. In the Avesta she also represents the Spirit of Obedience to the Eternal Law of God and also in a few passages in the Rig-Veda she represents the same idea. But on the whole her position in the Veda is much humbler than in the Avesta, for in the latter she is represented as the Guardian of the Faith of Zarathushtra.

Baga (corresponding to the Vedic Bhaga) is an epithet of the Supreme Being Ahuramazda in the Achaemenian inscriptions at Persepolis and elsewhere. In the Veda he is a special Deity who is later identified with the Sun.

Airyaman is also one of the ancient Aryan Deities, and in the Veda his name is mainly associated with those of the great Twin-Brethren Mithra and Varuna. To both the nations the name implies 'friend' or 'comrade' and so he is specially the God presiding over marriage. A similar position is accorded to him in the Veda where he is invoked during the marriage ceremony, and among the Parsis to-day a short hymn dedicated to him, and called the Airyema-ishyo, is still used as an essential part of the wedding service.

But the most important of the ancient Indo-Iranian Deities in many ways is mithra, who represents the Sun. In the Veda He is very intimately associated with Asura Varuna. In the Avesta, however, He is associated more with the two Guardian-Judges of departed souls than with Ahuramazda. He awaits the Souls on the other side of death and sits in Judgment over them by the side of Sraosha and Rashnu. He dwells on the top of the Hara-Bareza (Alborz) Mountain. In the Avesta He is the Great Being who is the Wise Ruler, the Loving Guardian and the Impartial Judge of humanity, a conception which is essentially ethical. In the Veda too His position is similar. In later days the cult of Mithra attained great importance esoteric school of occultism, which in its turn profoundly influenced the later Roman thought as well as earlier Christianity.

Haoma is another Indo-Iranian Deity, being the Vedic Soma. In the Avesta He is not a mere personification of the Soma-plant, but a great Teacher who appeared in the very early days to lead forward our infant humanity; and He is represented in the Avesta as being adored by the great Teachers of ancient Iran themselves. In Yasna, ix, He is represented as appearing before Zarathushtra and telling Him in broad outline the history of the Sacred Teaching in Iran in the ages gone by. Some scholars believe that it was He who introduced the Haoma-(soma-) Cult among the Aryans and thus gave His own name to the plant and its juice which formed an important item of the Indo-Iranian ritual. The Hindu and Zoroastrian rituals turn entirely upon the offering of the juice of this plant; and two priests called the Zaota (Hota) and the Rathwi (corresponding to the Hindu Adhvaryu) officiate at that ceremony.

A great deal of the ceremonial of both the branches of the Aryan race goes back to a very remote antiquity, as also some of the social and other customs. The religious ceremonies depended upon the yearly change of seasons. Hence the yearly Gahambars, six in number, which the Iranians celebrated in the ancient days and which are even to-day observed by the Parsis. These corresponded pretty closely to the annual sacrificial cycle observed in the Veda. The chief objects of popular worship among these two nations were the Elements-Fire, Water, Earth and Air-and the Lights of Heaven-the Sun, the Moon and the Stars. These were invoked as Heavenly Beings, but above and beyond them all was the idea of the Supreme God, which is seen in the Vedas and which was far more strongly emphasised by Zarathushtra. This emphasis which He laid upon the Supremacy of Ahura has coloured the whole of the subsequent development of Iranian religious thought.

The Hindu caste system and the Avesta caste system

Society in the Avesta shows the division into the three classes: the Athravan or Priests, the Rathaeshtar or warrior, and the Vastryosh or Husbandman, corresponding to the first three 'castes' of India, in other words 'the Twice-born' classes. To these three was added at a much later period (just as was the case in India) a fourth class the Hutokhsha or Manual-worker. The king belonged to the warrior or the Ruler class, and held supreme power in the land; but the Religious Teacher was his equal in every way 'verily by reason of his Righteousness'. The name of the Priestly class, Athravan, indicates the cult of Fire, which the Great Teacher had definitely established in Iran.

The worship 'Ancestors' (the Pitris) was another very marked feature of the ancient Aryan Faith, which both the branches inherited in common. The ritual pertaining to this worship consists of the 'cake-offering' (the darun among the Parsis and the Purodasha among the Hindus) and the libation of 'a product of the cow', which latter was milk in Iran and ghi (clarified butter) in India. But in Iran ancestor-worship developed into the deeper and the more philosophical idea of the Fravashi, which is lacking in the Indian branch. The Fravashi is the Eternal principle in man which persists through all time and seemingly progresses throughout the ages. As a writer (himself a Zoroastrian) has well put it: 'The Fravashis of men are archetypal souls clothed in ethereal forms, after whose model each human being is formed on earth....The body of each man with its peculiar physical, mental, moral and spiritual capacities, is shaped and formed after the model which each particular Fravashi presents'. Each being, right up to Ahura Himself, possesses a Fravashi which exists through all eternity.

Another interesting Indo-Iranian ceremonial was the sacrament of Initiation-the Zoroastrian Navjot (literally, 'New-birth') which corresponds to the Upanayana ceremony of the Hindus. Like the Hindus of the Vedic period all children among the Zoroastrians, both boys and girls, get this 'new-birth'. After this ceremony they are regarded as fully responsible members of the Zoroastrian fold. And as outward signs they put on the Sacred Shirt (the Sudreh) the Sacred Girdle (the Kusti) and they should also have a covering to their heads (at least during prayers), generally a small skull-cap. These three outward symbols correspond very closely to the Hindu Yajnopavita (the Sacred Thread), the Mekhala (the Girdle) and the Shikha (the tuft of hair on the top of the head) respectively. The first of these among the Hindus was originally a full upper garment as can be seen from ancient statues and from the dress of the Buddhist priests even to-day. The second, the Girdle, was originally the most important part of the dress of 'the twice-born'. In the Avesta it was Haoma for whom Ahuramazda first brought the 'sacred girdle, star-begemmed, woven by the two Spirits'. The cap was intended to protect the vital parts of the head, and the tonsure of the Roman Catholic priests seems to have had a similar significance.

Such are some of the ancient Aryan traditions and ceremonials which these two great peoples, the Iranian and the Indian, had inherited. In Iran, however, the dominating influence of their Teacher, Zarathushtra, has completely overshadowed all later development. His philosophy and His solution of the riddle of life has been at the root of all Iranian, and particularly Zoroastrian, thought ever since. He made use of these traditions, but He laid the greatest emphasis upon the moral concept of Ahura and of the grand Indo-Iranian idea of Asha (Vedic Rita), and made the latter the keystone of His World-Religion.

Jahil!

http://www.farvardyn.com/avesta1.php
"It was the advance in the study of Sanskrit that finally won the victory for the advocates of the authenticity of the Sacred Books. About 1825, more than fifty years after the appearance of du Perron's translation, the Avesta texts themselves began to be studied by Sanskrit scholars. The close affinity between the two languages had already been noticed by different scholars; but in 1826, the more exact relation between the Sanskrit and the Avesta was shown by the Danish philologian, Rask, who had travelled in Persia and Iran, and who had brought back with him to the Copenhagen library many valuable MSS. of the Avesta and of the Pahlavi books. Rask, in a little work on the age and authenticity of the Zend-Language (1826), proved the antiquity of the language, showed it to be distinct from Sanskrit, though closely allied to it, and made some investigation into the alphabet of the texts. About the same time the Avesta was taken up by the French Sanskrit scholar, Eugï?¥ne Burnouf. Knowing the relation between Sanskrit and Avestan, and taking up the reading of the texts scientifically, he at once found, through his knowledge of Sanskrit, philological inaccuracies in Anquetil's translation. Anquetil, he saw, must often have misinterpreted his teachers; the tradition itself must often necessarily have been defective. Instead of this untrustworthy French rendering, Burnouf turned to an older Skt. translation of a part of the Avesta. This was made in the 15th century by the Parsi Naryosangh, and was based on the pahlavi version. By means of this Skt. rendering, and by applying his philological learning, he was able to restore sense to many passages where Anquetil had often made nonsense, and he was thus able to throw a flood of light upon manyan obscure point. The employment of Skt., instead of depending upon the priestly traditions and interpretations, was a new step; it introduced a new method. The new discovery and gain of vantage ground practically settled the discussion as to authenticity. The testimony, moreover, of the ancient Persian inscriptions deciphered about this time by Grotefend (1802), Burnouf, Lassen, and by Sir Henry Rawlinson, showed still more, by their contents and language so closely allied to the Avesta, that this work must be genuine. The question was settled. The foundation laid by Burnouf was built upon by such scholars as Bopp, Haug, Windischmann, Westergaard, Roth, Spiegel, Bartholomae, Darmesteter, de Harlez, Huebschmann, Justi, Mills, especially Geldner, including some hardly less known names, Parsis among them. These scholars, using partly the Sanskrit key for the interpretation and meaning of words, and partly the Parsi tradition contained in the Pahlavi translation, have now been able to give us a clear idea of the Avesta and its contents as far as the books have come down to us, and we are enabled to see the true importance of these ancient scriptures. Upon minor points of interpretation, of course, there are and there always will be individual differences of opinion. We are now prepared to take up the general division and contents of the Avesta."

Now go and read some more. Jahil!

Proto-Indo-Iranian Old Iranian (OP, Av) Vedic Sanskrit
*açva ("horse") Av, OP aspa aśva
*bhag- OP baj- (bÄ?ji; "tribute") bhag- (bhaga)
*bhrÄ?tr- ("brother") OP brÄ?tar bhrÄ?tá¹›
*bhūmī ("earth", "land") OP būmi bhūmī
*martya ("mortal, "man") OP martya martya
*mÄ?sa ("moon") OP mÄ?ha mÄ?sa
*vÄ?sara ("early") OP vÄ?hara ("spring") vÄ?sara ("morning")
*arta ("truth") Av aša, OP arta ṛta
*draugh- ("falsehood") Av druj, OP draug- druh-
*sauma "pressed (juice)" Av haoma soma

#80 Posted by nkg
"a) vedic text never mentions anything outside india.
b) vedic text is only available in india.
c) vedic language is spoken only in india"


Boy, you really do know History…Is this what they teach you in schools. Get some help psycho!
Britannica.com.
The Old Indo-Aryan period is represented by Sanskrit. Middle Indo-Aryan (c. 600 BC – AD 1000) consists principally of the Prakrit dialects, including Pali. Modern Indo-Aryan speech is largely a single dialect continuum spread over an undivided geographical space, so demarcations between languages and dialects are somewhat artificial. Complicating the situation are competing distinctions between languages with an old literary tradition, local language identification by native speakers (as in censuses), supraregional languages such as Modern Standard Hindi and Urdu, and labels introduced by linguists, particularly those of George Abraham Grierson. In the centre of the Indo-Aryan speech area (the "Hindi zone"), covering northern India and extending south as far as Madhya Pradesh, the most common language of administration and education is Modern Standard Hindi. Important regional languages in the northern Indian plain are Haryanvi, Kauravi, Braj, Awadhi, Chhattisgarhi, Bhojpuri, Magahi, and Maithili. Regional languages in Rajasthan include Marwari, Dhundhari, Harauti, and Malvi. In the Himalayan foothills of Himachal Pradesh are Grierson's Pahari languages. Surrounding the Hindi zone, the most significant languages are, moving clockwise, Nepali (East Pahari), Assamese, Bengali, Oriya, Marathi, Gujarati, Sindhi, the speech of southern, northwestern, and northern Punjab province in Pakistan (called West Punjabi or Lahnda by Grierson), Punjabi, and Dogri. In Jammu and Kashmir and the far north of Pakistan are the Dardic languages; the most important are Kashmiri, Kohistani, Shina, and Khowar. The Nuristani languages of northwestern Afghanistan are sometimes considered a separate branch of Indo-Iranian. Sinhalese (spoken in Sri Lanka), Divehi (spoken in the Maldive Islands), and Romany are also Indo-Aryan languages.

Proto-Indo-Iranian was a Satem language, likely removed less than a millennium from the late Proto-Indo-European language, and in turn removed less than a millennium from the Vedic Sanskrit of the Rigveda. It is the ancestor of the Indo-Aryan languages, the Iranian languages, the Dardic languages and the Nuristani languages. The main phonological change separating Proto-Indo-Iranian from Proto-Indo-European is the collapse of the ablauting vowels *e, *o, *a into a single vowel, Proto-Indo-Iranian *a (but see Brugmann's law). Grassmann's law, Bartholomae's law, and the Ruki sound law were also complete in Proto-Indo-Iranian.

Among the sound changes from Proto-Indo-Iranian to Indo-Aryan is the loss of the voiced sibilant *z, among those to Iranian is the de-aspiration of the PIE voiced aspirates.

Mitra

An ancient Indo-Iranian god, corresponding originally to the Vedic (see Vedic entries) Mitra (see Mitra), Mithra was repudiated along with other ancient gods by the prophet Zarathustra (see Zoroaster) in favor of the one Wise Lord, Ahura Mazda (see Ahura Mazda). In this context, he was demoted to a position as judge of the dead. But the cult of Mithra remained strong and gained popularity in the first centuries CE in the Roman world as well as in Iran. Historically, Mithra is a rival to Ahura Mazda for the central place in pre-Islamic Iranian religion. His name is derived from the concept of proper arrangements or contracts. He represents loyalty, true friendship, and truth. Mithra is also a war god, a promulgator of the faith and of the Iranian “nation.� He is also a solar god. Many extraordinary myths are associated with Mithra in both his Iranian and assimilated Roman form: the magical cave in which the sun god lives when he is not driving his chariot pulled by white horses across the sky, his birth from a rock (see Virgin Birth, Hero Quest), and his ritual slaying of the primal bull, the symbol of disorder. This slaying reminds us more of the Vedic Indra (see Indra), the slayer of the primal demon Vṛtra (see Vṛtra, Indra and Vṛtra), than it does of the Vedic Mitra (see Mithraism).

#80 Posted by nkg on
I have given them enough reason to understand that they can not kiss IVT till they kiss ass of Bihari civilization (which was actually Punjabi civilization or reverse Punjabis/Kashmiries are direct descendants of those Vedic people).

This is the best thing about being a muslim, you have to hate and abuse your own forefathers in all possible ways:-)


I mean whether you like it or not, you can not say that I was not fathered by my father (whom I dislike) but my grandfather, that is what muslims have to do?? Or else you don't talk about ancestors. They want to go to a certain period and then jump, very long jump even for World-record standards, to fore-fore fathers or fore-fore civilizations. All that at will:-) In one shot they can pick and chose anything and call it by any name or association. And that is why they feel that even Islamic world also has lot of freedom, it has lot of freedom to create false psychologies, false arguments, ignoring arguments??

Re: # 69
HP...
"Historically unprovable theories to some religion being the original religion of every one in India are just ridiculous. Vedic religions are as alien to India as Abrahamic religions...."

mr. bedine-clone, that you people have to say repeatedly, but somehow it does not hold good and people do not accept it for the following reasons...

a) vedic text never mentions anything outside india.
b) vedic text is only available in india.
c) vedic language is spoken only in india
....

Re: # 55
masan anna,
who has asked you take this article seriously?
these are full of bluffs...

Re: # 61

This is much more to the point.

Why should any of you care if I am a crypto islamist or closet commie or not. I know what I am so I am not insulted if you choose to call me a giraffe or anything else.

I felt that this article had several much more important issues to examine like:

• Does the available evidence give a clear story of what actually happened at the crucifixion?

• Is there a real possibility that Jesus was not dead when he was removed from the cross?

• Do the witnesses to the resurrection or ascension seem reliable?

• Is the idea of Jesus being an Essne, Nazarene or Buddhist seem credible?

• There are old tombs of Jesus, Moses and Mary in or near Kashmir but why have they not been researched more with DNA and dating of the corpses. Etc.?

• Should the words of St Paul who never heard Jesus in person be taken seriously?

• Is there substance that the religion of Jesus has been captured by Paul?

• Was Jesus really a Jew and why has Christianity become a Gentile faith?

• How idolatory has crept back into the Christian idea?

Surely these or similar topics are more relevant.

Regards

Murad

Jangi, I would love to discuss Indus civilization with DM too but he usually does not have much to say on the subject....Well, the RSS sites don't have much to say on that either. Except for the usual BS of Arab and looking to arabs.. What is wrong with that anyway?

These bihari civilization people are trying to hook up with a superior civilization....It ain't gonna work!

pinku should be awarded the troll of the year award on chowk?

what do you say?

let me create an ilog out of it, people are not at all paying attention to what I am writing..

#74 Posted by jang on
last 3000 years kar lo yaar? ek do page hi extra ho jayenege article main??

Ok na teri na meri, baniye ki, 2500 kar lete hain??

DM Saheb, if you have already started then make it 4000 years, let's include some of IVT as well.. after all, all of us are great historians with "truth" as our sole motivation. I am trying to do a PHD in history, just not able to find a suitable college, where i won't need to read history books. After my PHD I will write only on Islam, muslims and Pakistan, including history of Sindh/Punjab/Balochistan/Kashmir:-)

HP yar, why dont you pen an article about religious and cultural history of sindh (maybe for last 2000 years). it will be an interesting topic.

(if you dont, watch out..DM might LOL)

Oh Gosh, why did we get distracted into all those directions?

There is only one issue here - Murad bhai's lifelong commitment to goring unIslamic cows, be they Hindu, Christian or Jewish.

My own guess is that he isn't obsessed with killing unIslamic cows because he is very afraid of Islam, or because he actually believes in any 'Islamic religious gobbledygook' like virgin birth or messengers of god stuff, any more than he believes in Hindu or Christian religious gobbledygook.

This is not a theological enterprize for him. It is purely identity-related, political commitment. That's why there is total overlap between his and Islamist political agendas with respect to Hinduism and Christianity.

Now, a lot of us openly play the game of identity politics. We just dont' claim to be rationalists, universalists, so on and so forth.

Only Hindu 'secularists' among us would let him get away with all that spin, and he generously exploits their hospitality. In fact, Murad bhai and Hindu secularists are made for each other - constituting a perfect predator-prey relationship.

(if Murad actually is scared of Islam, or really believes in virgin births and messengers of God, he may please clarify, so we may modify our view of him and his lifelong efforts.)

[[

The problem is with your convoluted intentions and attitude. I don't care.

]]

and that is what i accused you of! Not just you, this is a problem with most Pakistanis and muslims.

No connection is needed between the two, you can not arbitrarily own one set of ancestors/civilizations and reject others. that too when the Hindus came later than IVT people. Even though your other idea of no connection is premature, i don't need to care about it.

That is what I meant. You don't have enough knowledge to discuss this. Indus civilization was before Aryans brought Veda to India. It is true that Vedic religion prospered in the same geographical areas but Indus civilization was dead before Aryans came to India. So there really is no connection between the vedic religion and Indus civilization.

The problem is with your convoluted intentions and attitude. I don't care.

#69 Posted by HP on

I am not talking about guiding lights. I am talking about what you tried in your earlier post, i created an ilog for that. Can americans say that Europeans are not their ancestors? I am not saying that no Pakistani has any percentage of genes from Arabs. Though for your information despite so much of mix up you can still detect if a population has Indian/Arab genes or not (more than that).

[[
There have been so many invaders, visitors, conquerors and migrations from all parts of central asia, the ME and from the Mediterranean now in to what is Pakistan, that assuming someone origins is just ridiculous.
]]

It is simple, you don't have to do anything with IVT civilization if you don't have anything to do with Vedic civilization that flourished in that area. It is not just religion, what is civilization??? It is Vedic/Hindu civilization. You think that all those Hindus/Budhdhist who lived their for millenia had no civilization right??? Do you want to say that it was not Punjab and your Pakistani area and northern India where Panini and his brothers or their ancestors wrote those Sanskrit texts, including Vedas?

[[
I don't think Baloch or Pathans are of Indian origin neither are Punjabi or Sindhi- at least not all. So there is no reason for them to accept Hinduism or Buddhism as the guiding lights.

]]

And what makes you think so, and did you check if your thinking is right? I said above that that is the place Hinduism or Vedic civilization originated.

And what is a civilization??

So for this reason, because some Pakistanis may have a low chance of having Arab parentage, all Pakistani should be assumed to be of Arab descent, even if majority of them are Punjabis and Sindhies who got converted from Hinduism/Budhdhism?

I am not pressing against you claiming that you are not Arab, you can be, nor that an Arab can not live in Pakistan or India. The problem is intention and attitude.

[[
Historically unprovable theories to some religion being the original religion of every one in India are just ridiculous. Vedic religions are as alien to India as Abrahamic religions.
]]


This is what is ridiculous, and this shows intention, you want to arbitrarily own and disown things. Just to prove that Indians are not Hindu you are willing to go back to Big bang to say that at that time India had no person. Doesn't matter how long they are there and doesn't matter that the other thing that they come from "x" place hardly matters. At some point of time whole life was alien to earth, or at least humanity was alient to earth?? At some point all life came from Africa. At some point all white people came from some very cold place which simply can't be middle east, probably Siberia, or northern central asia. Why do we need to be so absurd to ignore what is obvious and truth??


Do you want to say on behalf of all Pakistanis that majority of them never had any ancestor who was practicing Hinduism or Budhdhism and how truthful you will about it?

A Civilization is people and their ideas and their lives, not land. If you want to ignore all that is part of people, you are not talking about civilization then.