The Capture of Christianity

#80 Posted by nkg on
I have given them enough reason to understand that they can not kiss IVT till they kiss ass of Bihari civilization (which was actually Punjabi civilization or reverse Punjabis/Kashmiries are direct descendants of those Vedic people).

This is the best thing about being a muslim, you have to hate and abuse your own forefathers in all possible ways:-)


I mean whether you like it or not, you can not say that I was not fathered by my father (whom I dislike) but my grandfather, that is what muslims have to do?? Or else you don't talk about ancestors. They want to go to a certain period and then jump, very long jump even for World-record standards, to fore-fore fathers or fore-fore civilizations. All that at will:-) In one shot they can pick and chose anything and call it by any name or association. And that is why they feel that even Islamic world also has lot of freedom, it has lot of freedom to create false psychologies, false arguments, ignoring arguments??

#80 Posted by nkg
"a) vedic text never mentions anything outside india.
b) vedic text is only available in india.
c) vedic language is spoken only in india"


Boy, you really do know History…Is this what they teach you in schools. Get some help psycho!
Britannica.com.
The Old Indo-Aryan period is represented by Sanskrit. Middle Indo-Aryan (c. 600 BC – AD 1000) consists principally of the Prakrit dialects, including Pali. Modern Indo-Aryan speech is largely a single dialect continuum spread over an undivided geographical space, so demarcations between languages and dialects are somewhat artificial. Complicating the situation are competing distinctions between languages with an old literary tradition, local language identification by native speakers (as in censuses), supraregional languages such as Modern Standard Hindi and Urdu, and labels introduced by linguists, particularly those of George Abraham Grierson. In the centre of the Indo-Aryan speech area (the "Hindi zone"), covering northern India and extending south as far as Madhya Pradesh, the most common language of administration and education is Modern Standard Hindi. Important regional languages in the northern Indian plain are Haryanvi, Kauravi, Braj, Awadhi, Chhattisgarhi, Bhojpuri, Magahi, and Maithili. Regional languages in Rajasthan include Marwari, Dhundhari, Harauti, and Malvi. In the Himalayan foothills of Himachal Pradesh are Grierson's Pahari languages. Surrounding the Hindi zone, the most significant languages are, moving clockwise, Nepali (East Pahari), Assamese, Bengali, Oriya, Marathi, Gujarati, Sindhi, the speech of southern, northwestern, and northern Punjab province in Pakistan (called West Punjabi or Lahnda by Grierson), Punjabi, and Dogri. In Jammu and Kashmir and the far north of Pakistan are the Dardic languages; the most important are Kashmiri, Kohistani, Shina, and Khowar. The Nuristani languages of northwestern Afghanistan are sometimes considered a separate branch of Indo-Iranian. Sinhalese (spoken in Sri Lanka), Divehi (spoken in the Maldive Islands), and Romany are also Indo-Aryan languages.

Proto-Indo-Iranian was a Satem language, likely removed less than a millennium from the late Proto-Indo-European language, and in turn removed less than a millennium from the Vedic Sanskrit of the Rigveda. It is the ancestor of the Indo-Aryan languages, the Iranian languages, the Dardic languages and the Nuristani languages. The main phonological change separating Proto-Indo-Iranian from Proto-Indo-European is the collapse of the ablauting vowels *e, *o, *a into a single vowel, Proto-Indo-Iranian *a (but see Brugmann's law). Grassmann's law, Bartholomae's law, and the Ruki sound law were also complete in Proto-Indo-Iranian.

Among the sound changes from Proto-Indo-Iranian to Indo-Aryan is the loss of the voiced sibilant *z, among those to Iranian is the de-aspiration of the PIE voiced aspirates.

Mitra

An ancient Indo-Iranian god, corresponding originally to the Vedic (see Vedic entries) Mitra (see Mitra), Mithra was repudiated along with other ancient gods by the prophet Zarathustra (see Zoroaster) in favor of the one Wise Lord, Ahura Mazda (see Ahura Mazda). In this context, he was demoted to a position as judge of the dead. But the cult of Mithra remained strong and gained popularity in the first centuries CE in the Roman world as well as in Iran. Historically, Mithra is a rival to Ahura Mazda for the central place in pre-Islamic Iranian religion. His name is derived from the concept of proper arrangements or contracts. He represents loyalty, true friendship, and truth. Mithra is also a war god, a promulgator of the faith and of the Iranian “nation.� He is also a solar god. Many extraordinary myths are associated with Mithra in both his Iranian and assimilated Roman form: the magical cave in which the sun god lives when he is not driving his chariot pulled by white horses across the sky, his birth from a rock (see Virgin Birth, Hero Quest), and his ritual slaying of the primal bull, the symbol of disorder. This slaying reminds us more of the Vedic Indra (see Indra), the slayer of the primal demon Vṛtra (see Vṛtra, Indra and Vṛtra), than it does of the Vedic Mitra (see Mithraism).

Proto-Indo-Iranian Old Iranian (OP, Av) Vedic Sanskrit
*açva ("horse") Av, OP aspa aśva
*bhag- OP baj- (bÄ?ji; "tribute") bhag- (bhaga)
*bhrÄ?tr- ("brother") OP brÄ?tar bhrÄ?tá¹›
*bhūmī ("earth", "land") OP būmi bhūmī
*martya ("mortal, "man") OP martya martya
*mÄ?sa ("moon") OP mÄ?ha mÄ?sa
*vÄ?sara ("early") OP vÄ?hara ("spring") vÄ?sara ("morning")
*arta ("truth") Av aša, OP arta ṛta
*draugh- ("falsehood") Av druj, OP draug- druh-
*sauma "pressed (juice)" Av haoma soma

http://www.farvardyn.com/avesta1.php
"It was the advance in the study of Sanskrit that finally won the victory for the advocates of the authenticity of the Sacred Books. About 1825, more than fifty years after the appearance of du Perron's translation, the Avesta texts themselves began to be studied by Sanskrit scholars. The close affinity between the two languages had already been noticed by different scholars; but in 1826, the more exact relation between the Sanskrit and the Avesta was shown by the Danish philologian, Rask, who had travelled in Persia and Iran, and who had brought back with him to the Copenhagen library many valuable MSS. of the Avesta and of the Pahlavi books. Rask, in a little work on the age and authenticity of the Zend-Language (1826), proved the antiquity of the language, showed it to be distinct from Sanskrit, though closely allied to it, and made some investigation into the alphabet of the texts. About the same time the Avesta was taken up by the French Sanskrit scholar, Eugï?¥ne Burnouf. Knowing the relation between Sanskrit and Avestan, and taking up the reading of the texts scientifically, he at once found, through his knowledge of Sanskrit, philological inaccuracies in Anquetil's translation. Anquetil, he saw, must often have misinterpreted his teachers; the tradition itself must often necessarily have been defective. Instead of this untrustworthy French rendering, Burnouf turned to an older Skt. translation of a part of the Avesta. This was made in the 15th century by the Parsi Naryosangh, and was based on the pahlavi version. By means of this Skt. rendering, and by applying his philological learning, he was able to restore sense to many passages where Anquetil had often made nonsense, and he was thus able to throw a flood of light upon manyan obscure point. The employment of Skt., instead of depending upon the priestly traditions and interpretations, was a new step; it introduced a new method. The new discovery and gain of vantage ground practically settled the discussion as to authenticity. The testimony, moreover, of the ancient Persian inscriptions deciphered about this time by Grotefend (1802), Burnouf, Lassen, and by Sir Henry Rawlinson, showed still more, by their contents and language so closely allied to the Avesta, that this work must be genuine. The question was settled. The foundation laid by Burnouf was built upon by such scholars as Bopp, Haug, Windischmann, Westergaard, Roth, Spiegel, Bartholomae, Darmesteter, de Harlez, Huebschmann, Justi, Mills, especially Geldner, including some hardly less known names, Parsis among them. These scholars, using partly the Sanskrit key for the interpretation and meaning of words, and partly the Parsi tradition contained in the Pahlavi translation, have now been able to give us a clear idea of the Avesta and its contents as far as the books have come down to us, and we are enabled to see the true importance of these ancient scriptures. Upon minor points of interpretation, of course, there are and there always will be individual differences of opinion. We are now prepared to take up the general division and contents of the Avesta."

Now go and read some more. Jahil!

The very first name that occurs to the student in this connection is that of the Supreme Lord Himself-Ahura-which in the Sanskrit from Asura signifies 'a demon'. The name originally signifies 'the Lord of Life' (from Av. ahu, Skt. asu, life), or the One Life from Whom all proceed. The Sanskrit Asura also signified originally the One Eternal Life, and in the Rig-Veda (in its oldest portions) it is not used in its later degraded signification. In classical Sanskrit the name Purva-devah (earlier Gods) is also used for the Asuras; and the legend has grown up in India that it was these Asuras who had once ruled the Earth, till in later ages they were ousted from their positions by the comparatively more modern Devas (Gods). In the earlier Vedas the epithet Asura is used especially for Varuna, the Ruler of the endless Heavenly Sphere, refulgent by day and shining with innumerable stars at night. Varuna is also the All-pervading Life which ensouls the Creation. He is the Ruler of the Universe, the Lord of Righteousness, the One Being Who has laid down the Law and Order of Nature, and is the Father of All. The one important point to note in this conception of the Vedic Varuna is the great emphasis laid therein on the moral and ethical aspect of this God. Varuna is pre-eminently the Lord of Righteousness. This grand concept of Asura Varuna agrees closely with that of Ahura-Mazda of the earlier Avesta; and very probably the legends in the Brahmanas and in the Epics of the Hindus about conflicts between 'the Gods and the Demons' are but echoes of some religious and national strifes between the two branches of the Aryans in the prehistoric days.

The Avestic Daeva is the natural complement of Ahura. Originally 'the Shining One', this word retain its pristine purity practically throughout the history of Indian languages. But in the Avesta the word is never used in its old signification of 'Deity', even in the earliest portions, and in the later Avesta it invariably means 'Demon'. In the Veda however, we find the word used a couple of times as an epithet of the demons.

Of individual deities there are but few that have suffered this inversion. The most notable of these is Indra, one of the greatest Deities in the Vedic Pantheon. In the Avesta he is the chief helpmate of the Evil One. It is very remarkable that of two of the most important Gods of the Vedas-Varuna and Indra-one should have become in Iran the supreme Being, Ahura, while the other became the most important lieutenant of the Evil One.

But what is still more remarkable is that one of Indra's epithets-Vrtrahan (Bahram, the Slayer of the Demon-foe)- an epithet which is pre-eminently his-should have continued all through the history of Iranian Religion to be the name of one of the greatest of the Deities, Verethraghna (later Bahram). The Bahram Yasht (Yasht, xiv) where his deeds are recorded is a fine epic, and some of the achievements therein recorded remind us of the deeds of Indra mentioned in the Veda.

Vayu (the Wind, a name which is identically the same in both the languages) is another of the ancient Aryan deities. Haug says that 'he is the only Vedic Deity who is mentioned by name in the Gathas', a rare distinction indeed, if Haug's interpretation be true; but modern scholars like Bartholomae have cast a doubt upon Haug's rendering of that passage.

Nairyosangha is the Messenger of the Supreme Ahuramazda to mankind. He appears before the Great Saviours when the time has arrived for their manifestation in the world. One of his special tasks is 'the guarding of the seed of Zarathushtra' from which the future Redeemers of mankind are to be born. He is also said to have helped at the creation of the first human pair, the Mashyo-Mashyoi. These last two functions of his seem to have come into prominence during the Pahlavi period, but in the Avesta he represents some kind of Divine Fire, and in the Veda, under the name Narashamsa (he who is praised of mankind) he also represents the Sacred Fire.

Armaiti is the Spirit of the Earth, and also of Divine Wisdom and Grace, both in the Avesta and in the Veda. She has the rank of an Amesha-Spenta (a Holy Immortal, corresponding to an Archangel in Christianity) in the Zoroastrian Hierarchy. In the Avesta she also represents the Spirit of Obedience to the Eternal Law of God and also in a few passages in the Rig-Veda she represents the same idea. But on the whole her position in the Veda is much humbler than in the Avesta, for in the latter she is represented as the Guardian of the Faith of Zarathushtra.

Baga (corresponding to the Vedic Bhaga) is an epithet of the Supreme Being Ahuramazda in the Achaemenian inscriptions at Persepolis and elsewhere. In the Veda he is a special Deity who is later identified with the Sun.

Airyaman is also one of the ancient Aryan Deities, and in the Veda his name is mainly associated with those of the great Twin-Brethren Mithra and Varuna. To both the nations the name implies 'friend' or 'comrade' and so he is specially the God presiding over marriage. A similar position is accorded to him in the Veda where he is invoked during the marriage ceremony, and among the Parsis to-day a short hymn dedicated to him, and called the Airyema-ishyo, is still used as an essential part of the wedding service.

But the most important of the ancient Indo-Iranian Deities in many ways is mithra, who represents the Sun. In the Veda He is very intimately associated with Asura Varuna. In the Avesta, however, He is associated more with the two Guardian-Judges of departed souls than with Ahuramazda. He awaits the Souls on the other side of death and sits in Judgment over them by the side of Sraosha and Rashnu. He dwells on the top of the Hara-Bareza (Alborz) Mountain. In the Avesta He is the Great Being who is the Wise Ruler, the Loving Guardian and the Impartial Judge of humanity, a conception which is essentially ethical. In the Veda too His position is similar. In later days the cult of Mithra attained great importance esoteric school of occultism, which in its turn profoundly influenced the later Roman thought as well as earlier Christianity.

Haoma is another Indo-Iranian Deity, being the Vedic Soma. In the Avesta He is not a mere personification of the Soma-plant, but a great Teacher who appeared in the very early days to lead forward our infant humanity; and He is represented in the Avesta as being adored by the great Teachers of ancient Iran themselves. In Yasna, ix, He is represented as appearing before Zarathushtra and telling Him in broad outline the history of the Sacred Teaching in Iran in the ages gone by. Some scholars believe that it was He who introduced the Haoma-(soma-) Cult among the Aryans and thus gave His own name to the plant and its juice which formed an important item of the Indo-Iranian ritual. The Hindu and Zoroastrian rituals turn entirely upon the offering of the juice of this plant; and two priests called the Zaota (Hota) and the Rathwi (corresponding to the Hindu Adhvaryu) officiate at that ceremony.

A great deal of the ceremonial of both the branches of the Aryan race goes back to a very remote antiquity, as also some of the social and other customs. The religious ceremonies depended upon the yearly change of seasons. Hence the yearly Gahambars, six in number, which the Iranians celebrated in the ancient days and which are even to-day observed by the Parsis. These corresponded pretty closely to the annual sacrificial cycle observed in the Veda. The chief objects of popular worship among these two nations were the Elements-Fire, Water, Earth and Air-and the Lights of Heaven-the Sun, the Moon and the Stars. These were invoked as Heavenly Beings, but above and beyond them all was the idea of the Supreme God, which is seen in the Vedas and which was far more strongly emphasised by Zarathushtra. This emphasis which He laid upon the Supremacy of Ahura has coloured the whole of the subsequent development of Iranian religious thought.

The Hindu caste system and the Avesta caste system

Society in the Avesta shows the division into the three classes: the Athravan or Priests, the Rathaeshtar or warrior, and the Vastryosh or Husbandman, corresponding to the first three 'castes' of India, in other words 'the Twice-born' classes. To these three was added at a much later period (just as was the case in India) a fourth class the Hutokhsha or Manual-worker. The king belonged to the warrior or the Ruler class, and held supreme power in the land; but the Religious Teacher was his equal in every way 'verily by reason of his Righteousness'. The name of the Priestly class, Athravan, indicates the cult of Fire, which the Great Teacher had definitely established in Iran.

The worship 'Ancestors' (the Pitris) was another very marked feature of the ancient Aryan Faith, which both the branches inherited in common. The ritual pertaining to this worship consists of the 'cake-offering' (the darun among the Parsis and the Purodasha among the Hindus) and the libation of 'a product of the cow', which latter was milk in Iran and ghi (clarified butter) in India. But in Iran ancestor-worship developed into the deeper and the more philosophical idea of the Fravashi, which is lacking in the Indian branch. The Fravashi is the Eternal principle in man which persists through all time and seemingly progresses throughout the ages. As a writer (himself a Zoroastrian) has well put it: 'The Fravashis of men are archetypal souls clothed in ethereal forms, after whose model each human being is formed on earth....The body of each man with its peculiar physical, mental, moral and spiritual capacities, is shaped and formed after the model which each particular Fravashi presents'. Each being, right up to Ahura Himself, possesses a Fravashi which exists through all eternity.

Another interesting Indo-Iranian ceremonial was the sacrament of Initiation-the Zoroastrian Navjot (literally, 'New-birth') which corresponds to the Upanayana ceremony of the Hindus. Like the Hindus of the Vedic period all children among the Zoroastrians, both boys and girls, get this 'new-birth'. After this ceremony they are regarded as fully responsible members of the Zoroastrian fold. And as outward signs they put on the Sacred Shirt (the Sudreh) the Sacred Girdle (the Kusti) and they should also have a covering to their heads (at least during prayers), generally a small skull-cap. These three outward symbols correspond very closely to the Hindu Yajnopavita (the Sacred Thread), the Mekhala (the Girdle) and the Shikha (the tuft of hair on the top of the head) respectively. The first of these among the Hindus was originally a full upper garment as can be seen from ancient statues and from the dress of the Buddhist priests even to-day. The second, the Girdle, was originally the most important part of the dress of 'the twice-born'. In the Avesta it was Haoma for whom Ahuramazda first brought the 'sacred girdle, star-begemmed, woven by the two Spirits'. The cap was intended to protect the vital parts of the head, and the tonsure of the Roman Catholic priests seems to have had a similar significance.

Such are some of the ancient Aryan traditions and ceremonials which these two great peoples, the Iranian and the Indian, had inherited. In Iran, however, the dominating influence of their Teacher, Zarathushtra, has completely overshadowed all later development. His philosophy and His solution of the riddle of life has been at the root of all Iranian, and particularly Zoroastrian, thought ever since. He made use of these traditions, but He laid the greatest emphasis upon the moral concept of Ahura and of the grand Indo-Iranian idea of Asha (Vedic Rita), and made the latter the keystone of His World-Religion.

Jahil!

#85 Posted by HP on

HP,

First you should understand that no matter what you say, you won't be able to skip the history of Pakistan/Afganistan/India where Hindu/Budhdhist civilization developed.

Second if you have understood what you copy pasted, can you write in simple statements what you mean. What do you want to say? Be courageous and state it. Do you want to state that Avesta is older than Veda and language of Avesta is older than Sanskrit? Give whom you are referring to, whichever first, second or third class scholars they are.

Indians don't read about history and dates of Vedas in Indian schools, it is taught by those westerners. You may be happy to find any third rated references, similar to like a muslim claiming to be a sanskrit scholar and then telling what is written in Gita, you may have found a zorastrian claiming something in similar way. But irrespective of that make some small and strong statements and with the best scholar or whatever you have for it. So that we can see what you are saying.

Caucasus mountains). This ultra white color of race doesn't get created even in 10,000 years. It needs long long time, much before even Sumerian civilization these white people were born somewhere. You can not convert a black to white(without cross breeding) and white to black even in 10,000 years. The white race originated at least 40,000 years ago. And the oldest dicussed civilization of sumer is only 7000 year old.


So it is possible that Aryans or their forefathers from Caucasus mountains or Siberia or some other cold place migrated south ward and spread in central Asia, Europe, India and Middle east. It is certainly possible that they took some similar stories, one of them being the idea of great flood, with them. But all this is very old. All white people originated at one place and spread south wards, when they travelled from Africa to that cold place is so mysterious that we can't even think how it was possible (some ice age, when they were not white, were not perhapas modern man by then?).

Misssed lot many statements, will see if i can retrieve it..


This is bad, I should be able to use "back" button and retrieve it, how does chowk-site eat that stuff??

#83 Posted by HP on November 6

what do you find so new about the folowing details you gave?
Do you think that linguists and philo-logist use Indo-European and Indo-Iranian for no reason, you think those who say Sanskrit is oldest attested language still known to us (for example Sumerian would have been older but we do not know it) know less number of common words than you supplied?


Do you know of any kind of Sanskrit outside of India?? What is avesta is avesta language irrespective of affinity, Latin is Latin and German is german, all of them have affinity to sanskrit but sanskrit is much older than them???

Despite being old Sanskrit is much better structured than all of them, because people worked on it, those Hindus worked on it to make it better.


====

Proto-Indo-Iranian Old Iranian (OP, Av) Vedic Sanskrit
*açva ("horse") Av, OP aspa aśva
*bhag- OP baj- (bÄ?ji; "tribute") bhag- (bhaga)
*bhrÄ?tr- ("brother") OP brÄ?tar bhrÄ?tá¹›
*bhūmī ("earth", "land") OP būmi bhūmī
*martya ("mortal, "man") OP martya martya
*mÄ?sa ("moon") OP mÄ?ha mÄ?sa
*vÄ?sara ("early") OP vÄ?hara ("spring") vÄ?sara ("morning")
*arta ("truth") Av aša, OP arta ṛta
*draugh- ("falsehood") Av druj, OP draug- druh-
*sauma "pressed (juice)" Av haoma soma

Who teaches these things and in which university that Avesta is older than Rig Veda or language of Avesta is older than Sanskrit??

Re: # 82
HP...
Mr. Beduine-clone, it is not taught in the history book. It is natural way of thinking and drawing conclusion. Govt. sponsored books are full of distortions....

Now, coming to old cliche/bluff of asura, proto-indo-european etc...
Sanskrit Language varies with region and some of the western Sanskrit is closer to contemporary Iranian language, called avestan. That does not make Iranian language as the base of Sanskrit....

Murad Bhai, your being a crypto Islamist is extremely relevant. And, the fact that you make statements - in fact one after another - without ever bothering to defend them when questioned on them, convinces me, at least (and should others) that you have no interest in knowing or understanding things as they were or are.

Essentially, Murad bhai, you are a sad case of an Islamic propagandist.

Again, I (and hopefully many others) would change our opinions if you volunteered to answer some basic questions put to you. For someone who makes bold claims to knowing the truth and learning etc, that is the least people expect.

Does anyone know why we got into studying Indo-Iranian languages here?!

Murad bhai, as far as I recall, has never claimed to be Persian or Central Asian or Turkish (many others do, and as Muslims, they have a full right to claim what they wish).

Murad bhai's focus has been exclusively religious - about Hindus, and now about Christianity.

Ok, here we go. This is where we got sucked into that discussion:

"Vedic religions are as alien to India as Abrahamic religions"

This is an irrelevant point, both directly (about whether Paul manufactured his own Christianity) or indirectly (Paul or no Paul, Murad bhai is certainly scoring cheap points for Islam using hackneyed old materials about other religions).

Let's bring the discussion back on track. Either Islamists can high five one another about how they brilliantly found another set of earth-shaking 'new' (to them?) material about Chrisianity (and convince themselves of the truth of their own versions of Islam), or understand the politically Islamist nature of ALL of Murad Bhai's work.

Re: # 85

Great stuff but what happened to christianity that is the main concern of this article.

I'm surprised that an army of Baptists, Seventh day adventists, Mormons and other Christians have not pounced upon this piece and tried to tear it shreads.

Murad bhai, there is nothing to tear to shreds in this article. This is pretty old stuff that "army of Baptists, Seventh day adventists, Mormons and other Christians" is quite familiar with, and has dealt with before.

Now, between you and I, they have dealt with it by simply closing their eyes to it or by coming up with absurd interpretations of their own.

But again, that is precisely what people of faith do.

Kaalchakra,

I see your point now of Murad'ji being a closet Islamist while claiming to be a "historian". :-)