Yes we can, Obama!

Re: # 179; madani sahib

"the holy Roman script" indeed sir!

Mr. T and D. Mitter.........
I do not have knowledge about population growth etc.
But Genearlly I will not value any thing written by natives and hard to believe they can be objective and right.

Generally if thing is written by white man and in Holy Roman script I take is authentic for reasons too obvious and which are self evident.
Good Day.

jang bhai jan: hindus (or anyone else) in poverty do not make me (or any normal person, i am sure you will agree) happy. this crowing at the real life miseries of people seems to be another bit of the "chowk experience" one is deprived of experiencing otherwise....

anil sahib: thanks for the links to your posts on the subject. i shall look them up.

dost mittar saheb: I asked you to do this: "to get started, just google "fertility rates" and see how many muslim countries have lower fertility rates than india. then come talk to me about how you tell it like you see it."

You come back and tell me this: "the problem is that most of them just give a reference and the article is available only to subscribers."!! Is it really that hard to differentiate between looking up simple facts and articles on some restricted website???

I just googled on the key words ("fertility rates") I suggested you use, and there are 1.3 million links!! The very first one is from wikipedia which gives a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate

and also, facts are facts. There are no "desi" vs "vilayati" facts...unless you are dishing out hindutva propaganda under the facade of "scholarship".

tahmed saheb:

I have been googling to find foreign studies to satisfy your "vilayati" tastes; the problem is that most of them just give a reference and the article is available only to subscribers.

But the way you show your hatred for Indian academic institutions by calling them "rinky-dinky" and their studies communal and obscene hindu nationalism, even though they date back to the British time and even though being in the international arena you OUGHT TO KNOW that Indian demographers are some of the most highly respected in the world, I think that nothing that anyone will say would convince those whose minds are made up and who wish to find every opportunity to thank Jinnah. So, please thank Jinnah one more time. I am out of here.

But unlike you, I will keep an open mind and, if you can find any study by even a Pakistani journal which shows that, IN INDIA, there is no relationship between religion and fertility rates, I would be willing to give it an appropriate weight.

oye yar tahmed...here something to make you happy...most hindus are also in poor state of development..only marginally better than muslims in india. sachar commitee tabled it in parliament.

Tahmed sahib:

Other than the ones me sparring with Masadi mian, I exchanged posts with Dost Sahib and Kaal (150, 148, 146, 142, 141, and 138). You might like to read them. There is indeed body of work done which points to lack of empowerment, education and economic opportunities.

tahmed, you want icelandians to do research on indian economy, social issues and economy? they are very busy right now with the banking crisis.

and gokhale was jinas (who you thank every time you feel shadow of a hindu) teacher and mentor

Tahmed sahib:

I know there is a distrust among Pakistanis and Indians about institutions being biased, but hopefully you would agree that Indian problems will be dealt by Indian institutions and Indians in India. I do not know about Pakistani institutions, but Indian instituions have hardly provided any practical solution, and rarely implemented it. It is an undeniable fact that Muslim Indian community has higher fertility rate. Debate seens to be about the root cause. Religion is the easiest to point at, a grave mistake in Indian context, which is very different than Pakistan (and I too thank Jinnah for it).

Religion based dissection of social and political issues is dangerous as it misses root causes, and always gets the easiest and emotional option.

Dost sahib's interpretation, and Indian institutions reports confirms my belief that communities in India must rely on their own to create resources and develop leadership which can deliver unfair advantage in Indian context.

There are successful models in America of what I am saying, while in Canada and in England intitiatives tend to be institutionalized, hence Dost sahib's views based on his experience and professional work. His view may be biased due to solutions that he is used to. We all tend to do this.

further to #169.. and i should add that given the fundamental importance of demographic trends in the world today, it is all the more important to approach it in an objective and scientific manner and not distort it to score some stupid communal points.

anil sahib: i must admit i missed your post on this issue. but glad to see that you agree that it makes no sense to ignore all evidence to the contrary, ignore over a century of studies in demography starting with the demographic transition in france in the 19th century and ending with the demographic transition in south asia that started only a few decades ago.

however, i am not labeling Dost Mittar as anything other than as the fine gentleman he no doubt is. All the more appalling it is for him to so casually accept the communal rubbish propagated by hindu nationalists in india...

Tahmed sahib:

If you have read what I wrote here on religion and fertility rate, then you would know that I do not agree with Dost Sahib's conclusions. However, don't you think that it is a reach to label Dost Sahib?

dost mittar: i am indeed ignorant of arth vijnan. and you forget that indians are foreigners to me too (and thank God and Jinnah for that who was quite right in noting the pervasive and obscene nature of hindu nationalism). i am also ignorant of the gokhale institute too. nor do i intend to waste my time taking seriously indian sources on communal issues.

instead of tossing names of these rinky-dink indian institutes whose main goal seems to be to institutionalize the berating of minority religions in india, why dont you do the obvious thing i just suggested you do - google fertility rates, then come explain to me why so many muslim countries have lower birth rates than india.

tahmed:

I am astonished at your ignorance. Arth Vijnan is probably the oldest academic journal on social sciences in India. It is the official organ of a Pune institute which is perhaps the oldest social science institute on the subcontinent.

However, since His Highness only accepts studies by foreigners, could you please tell us of any study of Indian population on this subject that contradicts these other studies? Tomorrow, you might ask that you will not accept any study of female infanticide in India or of Honour killings in Pakistan unless the study was done by a foreign journal.

Here is a brief write-up on the Gokhale Institute:

"Gokhale Institue of Politics and economics (GIPE) was conceptualized by Shri Rao Bahadur Kale in 1930. it was established on 6th June of the same year. In the present times it has become a premier institution of learning. It can brag of several students as well as faculty members who have left an indelible impression in both national as well as international arena.

Initially conceived as a research center, it was granted the status of a institution for higher studies in Economics and it had the power to award M.A and PhD degrees. GIPE was affiliated to the University of Bombay in the beginning, but with the establishment of the University of Poona in 1949, it became a constituent member of that university.
Noting the contributions of GIPE in the field of Agricultural Economics, the UGC declared GIPE to be a Center for Advanced Studies in Agricultural Economics in 1962. in 1964, GIPE was declared to be a center for Advanced Studies in Economics. Besides this GIPe also houses the Population Research center. Considering the contributions of GIPE in the field of Economics the central Government granted GIPE the status of being a "Deemed University" in 1993.

The Reserve Bank of India, followed by the Ford Foundation and the Planning commission has Instituted chairs in the GIPE in the years 1976, 1989 and 1995 respectively.

Courses Offered: As it is a center of Advanced studies in Economics, academic programs include, M.A in Economics and PhD.

1. M.A : It is a two year program distributed into four semesters. The number of compulsory subjects are six while the number of optional subjects are twelve. Students from varied academic background can opt for this M.A.
Selection: Selection of students is done on the basis of an entrance examination on subjects like,analytical ability, knowledge in basics of economics, knowledge of statistics and mathematics.
Eligibility: Any student who wishes to appear in the examination must have a minimum of 50% marks in his graduation, (45% for SC/ST)
2. PhD: PhD is offered in Economics, Population studies and Sociology.
Eligibility: Any student who wishes to apply for the PhD course needs to have 55% marks in the Master's degree.
The Application form and information brochure can be gathered from the office of GIPE on payment of Rs. 500.

The institute also provides a Certificate Course in Computers for Economic Analysis, for students of M.A and PhD."

Masadi Sahib:

"...Anil mian find another day job rather than follow me around as a chaprasee..."

Poor, Poor, Poor Masadi. In case your visual capabilities are impaired, I was here.