Yes we can, Obama!

Re: # 236

Faruk, my apologies, I wrongly wrote Feroz.

re:KaalChakra #239
That's a lifestyle choice. Take a look a the number of DINK's in the Indian Metros. That too has nothing to do with religion.


Faruk

re: shah2
The sex ratio in Punjab as per the 2001 census is 876 women per 1000 men. The situation is so bad that they are importing brides from Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.

Regards,

Faruk

I dont undertand why more than two kids is considered obnoxious .In India family planning slogan was hum do hamare do.in Indiras time one form of birth control was Vasectomy . I did that in hundreds .there many complicatins and Politicians pushed it because SA pushed for it with AID .Many rickshaw pulers were forced and govt employee were threayened to ne ired if they did not full fill there qota.

Now the concept of two kids is American ,What i learnt after coming that it ws only a prosperous face of usa that was presented If both husband wife is highly educated both work full time contributr thousands in Taxes that exactly USA wanted from young professional given visa generously .

Since i think America has misslead asia by insisting on there model be followed or practicing eugenics ...that is suck up all the good genes i.e. intelegentsia of third world enriching itself while leave the host country to rot .
I see American White with 6 /9 kids living little away from metro .How do they manage and there life is as comfortable thanks to social services to pair of Indian doctors both working having hard time raisng even one child b/c of busy life .We have been had by USA

re KaalChakra#237
"Religion works by affecting such other factors as willingness to marry, age of marriage, willingness to divorce, use of contraceptives etc etc."

I am not sure what influence religion has on the things you mentioned. But I see a difference in birth rate in rural and urban India within the same faith, there is a difference in birth rate between the rich and the poor within the same faith.



Regards,

Faruk

Exactly, shah ji.

Let me give another exmaple of how religion plays a role in 'increasing fertility rates' in more advanced countries.

In the West, a lot of couples might stay together without marrying. It is unlikely they would care to have children during this period. So they have no children during their most fertile years. Marriage gets delayed in 'non-religious' groups, as does total fertility rate.

So religious folks are not outbreeding anyone. Irreligiuos folks simply are withdrawing from the fertility business for other goals.

Re: # 226

Kaal bhai
you bring an excellent point we missed

"the demagogues never care to mention that the sex ratio (the number of girls for 1,000 boys) among Muslim Indians has been consistently higher than among the Hindu Indians. That is, Muslims ..."

One reaso nmay be abortion after ultrasound new development and infanticide Recently i read there only 300 women to 1000 men some where in Punjab

Faruk

I think sometimes we represent the effect of religion as some sort of grand conspiracy! It is not. It certainly is not about one group determinedly 'outbreeding' another.

Religion works by affecting such other factors as willingness to marry, age of marriage, willingness to divorce, use of contraceptives etc etc.

Even the idea that Muslims take better care of their children and have lower mortality rates may be true, and would show up as higher growth rates in populations. So a whole lot of factors go into shaping these things, not any conspiracy or desire to take over a country!

But since we don't study these things for fear of offending others and ourselves, we don't even try to seriously understand the underlying dynamics. At least I think that is what happens, and that is a loss for all of us.

Feroz:

I am talking of increasing upward mobility and seed the factors that influence and you will see the change. Now come to think of it, Black Muslim example comes to my mind.

re: Anil #231
Majority of middle class folks generally have just one child in India. We are talking about the poor. India's population is growing only in that strata of the society irrespective of faith. The poor are better off if they have more children, you change that India's population will stop growing.

Regards,

Faruk

re: KaalChara #228
I don't think that example applies to India. Most people in urban India other than the jhuggies have one child irrespective of faith.
Most Muslims in the economic strata that has more children are more concerned about more important things like dinner than changing the demographics of the nation.

Regards,

Faruk

Kaal:

I have participated in the review of case study which showed in Philedelphia neighborhood the impact of Black Muslim was very positive. It reduced family sizes, single parenthood and unemployment. Business community and Black Muslims formed a partnership.

anil ji, there have been studies in Africa, in the Middle East (Egypt), in South America, in addition to just the US and Europe. The effect of religion shows up repeatedly.

Now, I don't have the references because this is not my area of interest. I have just seen those studies far too often.

Re: # 229

Faruk:

There have been studies carried out that point to strong correlation between rates of growth (upward mobility) of middle class and fertility rates. I guess this answers your question if within a communnity what factors influence fertility rate.

Re: # 223

Dost sahib:

I think you are pointing the highest due to religion, and the lowest dues to irreligion in Quebec.

The shift away from Quebec nationalism and even lesser feeling of isolated culture in North America among others probably are more dominant causes for this shift.

Although, I must say that there have been studies done by WHO (or similar U.N. organization), if Tahmed sahib wants to research on this subject. These studies were conducted in El Salvador and other Central American countries. The reports certainly pointed to Catholic churches and priests who actively preached against abortion and contraception as reasons for high fertility rates in there and ensuing poverty. There have been reports about stand offs between social angencies and Catholic churches there.

However, these are homogenous (religion wise) societies, and we must be careful when we apply their findings to India, where new ground realities drive changes (good and bad). As I mentioned it earlier, you cannot make equality in fertitilty rate in Kerala an acid test of neutrality of religion.

Even if there is a connection, then how relevant it is in Indian context?

What can be achieved in Quebec in one generation, should give optimism, if no number of priests in one family are not counted, instead may be number (for example) of cell phones are counted. At least these indicators / variables point toward a solution.

re: dm various

Is the birth rare for Muslims any different in the economic strata they belong to?

Does it have any correlation to the fact that six year old's are allowed to add to the family income in India.

Regards,

Faruk