An Indian Muslim

Ref Urstruly #151

[4. Pakistan must re-evaluate its position too. If Pakistan can get 5 billion dollars from IMF to get through this crisis then why would it need American "help". If Americans are borrowing money from China (at interest) and giving it to us (with added interest) then why not borrow directly from China??]

Because, if you read the papers, you would know that China turned down Pakistan's request for $2 billion in loans. A Chinese official said that after due diligence China came to the conclusion that the deal would have been bad for China.

In short, China didn't want to throw good money after bad!

Ref bulleya #135

[turkey is, now, my favorite place to visit in europe.....malaysia can go toe-to-toe with any country.....]

Yup, Malaysia where you can revert to Islam even after death because some mullah says so and your body will not be handed over to your family.

Malaysia where civil rights are so strong a Muslim woman cannot marry a Christian man because it is against the Shariah.

Good example. Too bad you lumped it to gether with Turkey.

[however, it is the gcc which has totally turned my definition of the illiterate bedioun on its head.....

....with their 100 years of oil reserves, they are going to be quite a force......]

Nuke a couple of major oil fields and they will return to ridng their camels and flying their carpets for transportation.

Ref Bull-Yeah #122

[...and, for whatever reasons, i am afraid, they (the Muslims) are not doing well in india....i meet more indian christians in senior IT positions than indian muslims........even though christians in india are a fraction of muslims......]

Try reading some of my posts. Here is something for you:

#96 Posted by harimau on November 29, 2008 12:12:43 pm
Ref anil #85

All those screaming about mistreatment of minorities in India: here is a little thing for you to chew on.

Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion who is currently the chief minister of Masanamuthu's home state of Tamil Nadu brought in an ordinance (when the state's Legislative Assembly was in recess) to allow reservations in education and government jobs at 5% of the total for Christians. He also brought in a 5% reservation for Muslims.

Less than 6 months later, the same guy had to present a bill to the Legislative Assembly to undo the 5% reservation for Christians because the Christians protested that they could do better than the 5% quota on their own merit and that they feared that the quota would be used to limit them to 5% when they had the possibility of taking as much as they wanted if there were no quotas.

The Muslims expressed their gratitude to the chief minister for his generosity.

Talk about a difference in attitude!

[ i still argue that the best situation for everyone in south asia....specifically for indian muslims......is open borders, a joint ecnonomic union, like europe......where nationalism gets diluted as does ideology, and city and local loyalties take precedence......this requires some geographical issues (like kashmir) to be resolved......]

Yep, Kashmir Banega Pakistan!

Stuka,

Six months is a long time. I hope MMS survives but the amount of criticism now coming out of India will pick up a few more notches and soon can go even higher on decibel scale.

Btw, This is the first time I am reading more democratic Party blogs and web sites taking not so pro Indian approach. Never before I have seen dems so united in opposing Indian rhetoric. Some are in fact sympathetic to Pakistan. Which is a rare sight in the US media.
I guess the prospect of BJP taking over India is not appealing to the American liberals and democrats.

I hope the Pakistani government cashes on this good will.

Eklavya:

So, please don't get upset. Masan knows his history (far better than I and many others ever will) and seems to respect Gandhi just like you and most others do.


Thanks for your kind words. I'm just interested in history and learning stuff every week, keeping my mind open. that's all. In my interacts, I have often found that people really don't know what they are talking about, most of the time.

HP: " In india the process has started and I would like to see how long it takes for MMS to fall. Indian coalition is depended on Amar Singh who would desert them if interim PM ship is offered to him or his party.
"

Inconsequential. Elections are due in less than 6 months. What would be more interesting is the impact on polls on Delhi state elections that happened yesterday.

Echoes of Kargil?! Pakistanis refuse to accept the bodies of their own -- and feign ignorance.

And those Pakistanis who are shedding crocodilean tears for the plight of Indian Muslims, read below how at least some Indian Muslims feel!

Muslim body refuses to bury 9 killers
1 Dec 2008, 0604 hrs IST, Mateen Hafeez, TNN

MUMBAI: The Muslim Council on Sunday decided not to allow burial of the bodies of the nine terrorists killed during the Mumbai siege in the Marine Lines Bada Qabrastan (cemetery).

The council said it was trying to send a message to all cemeteries in India that none of the bodies should be buried on Indian soil.

Bhai Jagtap, a Congress MLA from VP Road-JJ constituency, told TOI some Muslim organisations had approached him demanding that the terrorists should not be buried in any cemetery in India.

"Considering their sentiments, I am trying to get in touch with deputy CM R R Patil and other senior leaders. I will forward this message to the state government," said Jagtap. The council authorities have handed over a letter to the Marine Lines cemetery in this regard.

In 2003, a Pakistani national killed in an encounter was buried in a Mumbai cemetery. This time, it has been decided not to allow burial of the terrorists because of the gravity of the attack. However, other Muslims organisations are yet to take a decision on the issue.

Ref atif2 #125

[.... majority of hindoos of chowk (and other forums) came out looking like monkey's ass.]

Or your face.

[In stark contrast to pakis behavior during similar tragedies in pakistan, there were no lofty words, no idealism, no uplifting talk, no high-mindedness from hindoos.]

Actually, we got plenty of that. We got statements from our Home Minister that terrorist acts will not be permitted implying that earlier terrorist acts received permission from the Government of India on an application submitted on Form 3742; from the Prime Minister that terrorist acts will not be allowed to tear the secular fabric of India; from newspapers such as the "Anti-Hindu" which said that India's sovereignty was being violated by this latest of terrorist acts -- it is so concerned about India's sovereignty that it railed against the Indo-US nuclear cooperation agreement but not about China's occupation of Indian territory.

[Rather, it was just plain impotent rage, vulgarity and shallowness from little people of various castes.]

Gasp, do you mean the brahmins and the Dalits were alike in condemning the Mozzies?

[And this is exactly why legions of civilizers through the history have taken it upon themselves to bring enlightenment to India, and inshallah will continue to do so.]

You mean that legions of camel jockeys who use kitty litter for toilet paper brought death and destruction to India starting with the Sindh.

[But for the most part, hindoos made it amply clear why they are stuck in the rut of castes and why their thoughts would never rise above their short heights.]

And I suppose your post here is a reflection of your ability to think beyond your truncated penis.

The surviving PAKISTANI terrorist is now singing!

Ex-soldier trained terrorists, says Kasab
1 Dec 2008, 0226 hrs IST, S Ahmed Ali, TNN

MUMBAI: "There were 24 of us who took one-year training in camps organised by Laskar-e-Taiba (LeT) at Mansera and Muzzarafabad in Punjab province of Pakistan. Ten of us were later handpicked for the Mumbai operation,'' said Ajmal Amir Kasab during interrogations.

According to sources, Kasab, 21, the only terrorist arrested by the Mumbai police, told his interrogators that Abdul Rahman, an ex-soldier popularly called Chacha, had given them training.

The sources said Kasab explained that the training was divided into seven phases. "He said the first phase was of ‘very hard physical training’ of three months which included running 10 to 15 km. The next three months were for marine training like swimming, surfing, diving and boating in high seas. The rest included arms and ammunition training,'' said a source.

After the training was over, they were sent to Mumbai for a "short internship'', Kasab is believed to have told the cops. This was the period when the accused did the reccee of the city and even went to the five star hotels (Taj and Oberoi), the sources said.

Sources said the Mumbai operation plot was planned in Karachi some six months ago. Joint commissioner of police (crime) Rakesh Maria said,"We are closely working with the all the central agencies who have earlier handled such situations.''

In a fresh development in the investigations, the Mumbai police called up their Gujarat counterparts to enquire about whether the terrorists used Amar Narayan, the skipper of the fishing trawler used by them, as a mole. Narayan was detained by Pakistan for three months for illegally entering into the Pak waters.

Police are now taking the help of top technical experts to break into the details of the GPS system and the satellite phone which they recovered from a terrorist at the Taj hotel. This GPS helped them to navigate the sea route from Karachi to Mumbai via Porbander, cops said.

The police have launched a manhunt for the few locals who have given the terrorists logistic support in the operation.

Re: # 157

[Had at that a single Hindu raised the voice against his own government "why are you massacring my fellow citizens?""]

Truly miaN, how could anybody say that about those "fellow citizens"?! These folks were sloganeering that they are Pakistanis -- so it was inappropriate to call them fellow citizens.

Unfortunately, the Pakistanis seem rather unwilling to take them in. So sad!

Next time, do the humanitarian thing and at least allow them to come in and stay and become the same source of satisfaction to Pakistan that they have proved to be to the Union of India!

You see, miaN, they had been warned to stay off the street because of Sec. 144. They broke it willingly and were (at least initially) willing to get shot for the cause of jihad. Why do you begrudge them their own share of the seventy two?!!

Stuka pai,
I will read that little later but once a thing happens many opportunities open up. I have written some where(not chowk) that governments in both countries are in danger of being usurped. In india the process has started and I would like to see how long it takes for MMS to fall. Indian coalition is depended on Amar Singh who would desert them if interim PM ship is offered to him or his party.
NOw by making too much noise India is aiding and abetting the fall of both government. It is time for damage control. I wrote yesterday on the other thread that guns are already out against the PPP or Zardari.

This also boxes Obama in too. The problem between the pentagon and the dems has a long history. So without divulging to much in the deep dark stories, I would say watch out many things would and could happen.

Ref shankar #117

[If I'm an Indian Muslim & I'm disillusioned with my parents' decision not to go over to Pakistan at the time of partition, could I exercise that right today?]

Ask the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh since 1971 that question. You will get the correct answer.

[I'm curious to know just how many disillusioned & discriminated Indian Muslims want to migrate to Pakistan, where they feel they have more freedom & less discrimination?]

The Pakistani High Commission in New Delshi is handing out immigrant visas as fast as they can. In fact, they have ordered special presses from the US for printing the visas on high-security paper at high speed; millions an hour! It is just that while the Pakistanis expect to clear the backlog of applications within a few days, the Indian Muslim population triples in that time period.

Ref borivili_express #109

[....the lingering resentment over 2002's anti-Muslim riots in the state of Gujarat. The riots, instigated by Hindu nationalists, killed some 2,000 people, most of them Muslims. To this day, few of the perpetrators have been convicted.]

Change your name to Godhra Express.

That was the train in which 60 Hindu pilgrims were burnt to death in a Hindu-majority country for chanting their own God's name by the 13.4% minority Muslims.

Anything that happened in Gujarat was a reaction to that.

Do you want a similar reaction to what has just happened in Bombay? You would fully deserve it.

Salim miaN, stop playing HP's Tweedledum. If your civilian institutions are weak and your aam-janta lacks the guts to enforce its will over your parasitical khakis, how is that India's fault?!

No, it's not the "bellicose" Indian statements that cause your khakis' latest antics. It was only a matter of time and any other excuse would have done just as well. They have always had this perennial itch for grabbing power and for subverting the majority will of the people.

It is a congenital disease that comes to you courtesy of the Jinnah!

HP: The issue is not the Pathans. Bigger issue is the split between your civilian and your military leaders. All newspapers are reporting the same pretty much...it's amusing to read that it's Delhi that should be ashamed of its behavior. Shouldn't Pak speak with with one voice first? Is the head of the country the President (who offers to send DG ISI) or the CAS, who orders the President to backtrack?



With bated breath



Monday, December 01, 2008
Once more, in a scenario familiar to all of us, people watch developments to Pakistan’s east with fear and trepidation. As accusations following the Mumbai carnage from India, directed Pakistan’s way, become more and more belligerent, security officials have warned troops from the Pakistan-Afghanistan border could be moved across to the frontier with India. Pakistan has around 100,000 troops posted along its western border to combat terrorism. The warnings state that the next 48 hours (24 by the time this comes into print) will be crucial. Pakistan’s foreign minister has also stressed, in carefully measured words, the gravity of the situation and the need to be ready for the worst. The cabinet has met to discuss the growing tensions. TV channels have been broadcasting special programmes. President Asif Ali Zardari, who only days ago had made striking offers of a new relation with India, now does what he can to keep the peace, advising India not to over-react and promising an investigation if any evidence of involvement by individuals or groups based in Pakistan is offered up. The worried Pakistan government is obviously desperate to prevent the situation from accelerating and plunging Pakistan into yet another crisis.

But there are complications. The most grave among these are the indications that the Pakistan military is not seeing eye-to-eye with the government. The military high command is said to be upset over what is believes is the civilian government’s failure to consult it on key decisions; the initial agreement to send the DG ISI to India, which was then subsequently withdrawn, has added to the dangerous discord. The military set-up believes the government’s line is too soft and that it is giving way to India too readily (and this has been the case in the past with previous governments as well). The government for its part believes it is worth doing everything possible to prevent tensions bubbling out of control. Individuals within it are said to be genuinely shocked by the audacity of the assault on Mumbai in which 195 people died. It is understood the differences in perception were aired during a key meeting between the army chief, the President and the Prime Minister. It is unclear if any agreement was reached during their intense discussion. For the military of course, trained to be on the constant watch out for a threat from India, the present scenario fits in ideally with the text-book situation they have studied so often, through the years at academies and at refresher courses. There is evidence that Pakistan is being provoked through the pointed accusations being made, and, as conspiracy theories go, a deliberate effort is being made to drag it into a conflict it does not want. The Indian response to the Mumbai tragedy has been unwise, hasty and in many ways completely ludicrous. It has not yet said why it believes the Lashkar-e-Taiba is involved or how it has ruled out its own internal radical Muslim elements without a full investigation. The fact that the country is not far from elections and that the Congress is under pressure from a resurgent BJP may have something to do with why the response seems to resemble that expected of a child following a playground fist-fight, rather than a democracy with over 60 years of experience behind it. New Delhi should be ashamed of its behaviour.

But the problem of course is that wars go beyond the descriptions contained in military books or the accompanying graphs and diagrams suggesting tactics and strategy. They involve immense suffering and great terror. The fact that Pakistan and India today possess nuclear weapons of course raises the stakes till higher. Even short of a war, a new period of heightened tension with India will be damaging for both nations. In the present scenario, we need mediators. Washington seems to be the best option. For reasons of its own, it is closely following developments with anxiety. It has already stated Pakistan must abandon its hostility with India in favour of a more intense effort against terror. Islamabad needs at this moment to seek the assistance of the US, the UK and other allies to play a part in calming the situation, cautioning India against further aggression and helping bringing the troubled situation back to a more reasonable pitch. The alternatives are one we simply cannot afford.

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