India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

dombivali, so you dont believe in justice? are you saying perpetrators of violence should be allowed do go free because the underlying causes are not resolved?

Borivilli:

Was Dawood not from Azamgarh?

and if possible sit with zardari and Kiyani and settle kashmir

Re: # 263

Ah_Snark:

India will control more damning evidence, for right and obvious reasons. It cannot afford to increase the anger, as It must control its right wing fascists. It will allow, in my view, Zardari to act and show to the world verifiable results something Rice has mentioned also. I am afraid that with elections only few months away, Congress may get tougher than even BJP to prove its credentials. It obviously has handled Nuclear Treaty and Amarnath quite well, compared to BJPs stand. All indicators until this episode was that Congress can win the elections. But now?

Indians, both muslims and Hindus, are searching for easy answers. what was Dawood? son of a marathi muslim constable then an extortionist, smuggler with hindu henchman who paid off and was paid by hindu politicians and used to cheer and host the Indian team in Dubai before 92 riots. what made him support memon brothers in crrying out blasts? the tales of muslims butchered by the police, business burnt and sisters raped, no hindu can understand that pain.

Similarly what was hafiz? a product of CIA's anti soviet jihad and ISI/pakistan's Kashmir policy. we cant change the past even the USA is regretting their role in Afghan Jihad and then their withdrawal.

if these dawood and hafiz die today their replacements can come up over nite infact they probably already have and they might be the people who did these terrorist attacks?

If there is genuine anger and outrage fix the law and intelligence system instead of seeking quick fixes which are anyway only cosmetic

vrv, bori managed to muddle my head more than usual today. :)

Didn't mean to stop your discussion. Go ahead. I will stay out of it.

#265 aha_snark. point taken. Hard to guage such things, but I think the general trend is unmistakably towards westernization aka rationality aka modernism around the world.

Granted muslims in india took a late start (despite Sir Syeds valiant efforts 150 years ago) - but as my father used to say: ultimately the fool does the same thing as the wise man, but only a lot later and after paying much greater cost.

262, I can argue with ppl who talk straight like bori but not with ppl like u.

shankar #261 i too found the indian muslims refusing burial to these cold-blooded killers as being an excellent move. This will send a message to any delusional individuals among indian muslims to not live out their psychopathic tendencies in the name of "muslim grievances" or "islami nizam". i hope Pakistan TV and all are playing up this move as well - it might give second thoughts to some of the taliban followers...

Re: # 253 tahmed32

yes tahmedji, there are many people in india living in the dense jungles. my point was not to say that everyone in pakistan is unvaccinated - as far as i can see there is considerable resistance in non-metropolitan pakistan to the ideas of the west... which is differnt from, as you pointed out, China.

Shankar, may I ask a question.

Do you think THIS time Pakistan is different, and we have a NEW opporunity?

Or, do you think India has no alternative but to let things be as they have been for the last 20 years at least?

Re: # 258 HP

was this a snark

no, it wasn't . you said reports should be official and not some newspaper report. my observation was that this man was an official and his report was reported in a newspaper.

anyway. i'm pretty sure more "official" evidence will emerge in the days to come.

What India needs to prove is that the guy had connection with any agency of the Pakistani state.

no one is saying that or alleging that at this stage. What the evidence (including circumstantial evidence (( which you do accept, as you have said)) ) does point to, however, is that there was extensive training/ planning / logistics support from a group of people in Pakistan

vrv, I think bori is being very reasonable.

But the whole debate about 'justice' is a big one. We can get too emotional looking at it in parts - our parts.

Somehow if we can put that obsession aside until we can understand what we mean by it, and what others mean by it, Hindus and Muslims and everybody else can live in peace. That is difficult though because we want our notions of justice to be enforced, and that creates huge problems for others.

hey, may be we still can arrive at some understanding with bori. Won't that be great? :)

Eklavya,
India doesn't have the clout (or the resources) of the US...ie. no predator drones.I don't think a military strike is an option. That will lead to nuclear war.

The only way these fundos will be vanquished is if the civil society of Pakistan defeats them. Now that may seem far fetched. I have this belief that the "silent majority" of Pakistanis are decent people who just equally fed up of this Indo-Pak bs. They never make it in the news because there are rarely given the opportunity to express themselves.When given an opportunity (like the last election), they kicked the King's party out. They gave the religious parties one try (during Mushy's rule), but the religious parties also got the boot.

I think this is a golden opportunity if GoI has the guts & vision to bank on it. Grandstanding will only make Pakistanis thump their chests as well. Its already happening. So far, Kayani has not shown any ambitions of taking over.

Why the heck cant we think out of the box? What is the alternative? The terrorists WANT India & Pakistan to hate each other. We are just helping them achieve their goals.

I just read that the dead terrorists are being disallowed (by the Indian Muslim community) from being given any Islamic last rites or burial in a Muslim cemetery. No 72 virgins for them! rah rah...

Re: # 242 borivili express

1. it's not a Hindu response it's an Indian one. There's nothign particularly Hindu about it and a whole lot of things that are resoundingly Indian. Your cliches, in this context at least, belong in your Pakistaniat textbooks.

2. It's not 'moral indignation', it's the rage of a country attacked.

3. The Gujarat pogrom was a blot on Indian society and thank the gods, has not been repeated.

4. Several rioters have been jailed. Several more are under trial. There's not a major media organisation that doesnt throw the riots in the Sangh's face regularly. Moreover, you cannot, at the same time, point to investigations into the Malegaon blasts AND say that anti-Muslim crimes go uninvestigated. They do not.

5. I reject your formulation of an exclusively Hindu India. India -- just India -- would be better served by better investigation and intelligence.

To re-emphasise, the fact that India is flawed in no way detracts from or negates the seriousness of the fact that we came under terrorist attack - apparently from a group of persons based in Pakistan.

HP #241 Zardari is up against a formidable foe in the terrorist network. this seems clear at the bizarre "offers" right after mumabai crisis started of the fazlullah and baitul masud to stop fighting the Pakistan military and to join them in fighting India - and by claims from unnamed "army sources" that these two scoundrels were suddenly "patriots". I hope Pakistan army does not stop its work of cleaning out fata due to tensions with India. It has the taliban on the run now, and if there is a hiatus the bastards will regroup