India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

#248 Posted by Aha_Snark
"Well, about newspapers, HP, the Bombay Police Commissioner, Mr. Ghafoor, was talking about the plot - and that was reported, i admit, in a newspaper."

Is this a snark?

What India needs to prove is that the guy had connection with any agency of the Pakistani state. And they still have to prove that he was linked with some Pakistani organization beyond his own statement to the police. He is clearly a crazy person and so far nothing about him has checked out comprehensively. Barely had education but speaks English fluently. From the attire and general demeanor the guy does not appear to be from some godforsaken village. His picture and the confidence he shows is not part of village upbringing.

borivili_express,

Even if I had to accept that indiscriminate bombings and shootings done to avenge the state of India, u'd end up killing 20% of the Muslims in each such incident. That's the msg from Bombay today.

Borrowing ur logic, how the common ppl in in Pakistan would feel and 'do' for what it amounts to similar injustices there for eg. missing ppl, mass graves, tortures, white phosphorous (Lal Masjid) & weekly suicide bombings?

The more u play Pakistan card in India, the more u get fcuked up in Bombay.

Take ur pick.

bori # 250 agreed fully. Actually, coercing Indian Muslims or any other Indians is a terrible idea.

What the majority cannot allow is to be blackmailed in any forrm by any minority, but other than that it is veyr foolish to be deliberately unfair or hurtful toward any minority. That is how it works in any good society, even in Muslim majority country. We are not there yet, but that is the goal the majority should move toward.

Best.

Zaradari is smart that is why he has lowered the Kashmir solution to just open borders, unlike musharraf who was still holding out for autonomy etc but even he cant hand over dawood and hafiz whatever, they have too much dirt on pakistan and ISI and in the case of Dawood even on Indian and the US. infact even the indian politicos dont want dawood back he has too much dirt on them, they make the demand knowing well that pakistan wont send him over

#252 whatever you say, eklavia sahib.

#248 Aha_snark:

I was talking trends towards "westernization" or more appropriately "age of reason", not that everyone is there by any means. Even in the US, the age of reason isnt exactly there, as Sarah Palin will be happy to explain to you why God created the earth on a fine Monday morning in the year of the lord 4000 BC or so.

and on polio: this is some of the tribal areas of Pakistan basically (in fact, mostly in the same areas where the pakistan army was finally clearing out the taliban until mumbai at least). there was a world bank report i think only last week on "forest people" of india (tens of millions strong) who seem to live in even more primitive ways than our tribals.

tahmedji, it will be hilarious if Shankar bhai or any Indian found that a reasonable or sufficient response to this situation.

It makes sense for you to suggest it is, though, and one is not disputing your right to make that case.

Indians and Pakistanis are looking at the sitaution from different sides, and I haven't seen any meeting of the minds, yet (shankar might still accept your response as sufficient or even relevant, in which case I will think much less of him than I do, only because he is an Indian).

Tahmed,

Zardari has many issues. He has no vision and is merely an order taker. So I am not sure he has the ability but at this moment the best course for him to keep his mouth shut and only speak through his official statements after thinking through the issues. I was aghast at the statement that Pakistan would withdraw forces from the Western borders. That would hurt Pakistan more than any confrontation with India.

In fact, I don't see any possibility of a confrontation with India. There is going to be a verbal assault, lots of diplomatic activity and in the end Pakistan will tighten up some jihadi organizations, force them to go underground. No one can take out forces that operate on the fringes of the society. How many India has taken out in its own country in the last 60 years?

The Indian government needs to make statements and Pakistan should not overreact. Let them say it. You don't confront an angry man shouting on the street. Once the temperatures go down, the time to talk will come.

Generally for the last 8 years Indians have been very accommodating and have not created problems and we should not let them do it just because we too have some hot heads in Pakistani establishment.

Bottom line they might be able to coerce Indian muslims (though in this case Indian muslims are genuinely outraged) but its not really the most effective long term strategy, they cant coerce Pakistan, firstly because Pakistan has airdefences which are reasonably effcetive and they showed a willingnes to use them when both indian aircraft which crossed over into their airspace during were immediately shot down. secondly escalating tensions with them runs not only a nuclear risk but the risk of US intervention which means US pressure to solve Kashmir as well, which for some reason Indians are not keen to solve even if it means only having open borders between the two kashmirs.

So better fix what you can, that is your own system, its hard not impossible.

Eklavya #245 i provided the reasons for what i said (as i generally try to do).

your "LOL" in response simply indicates that you are a fool. (Sorry if this offends you, but it is for your own good).

Re: tahmed32 & HP

Well, about newspapers, HP, the Bombay Police Commissioner, Mr. Ghafoor, was talking about the plot - and that was reported, i admit, in a newspaper.

tahmed32
a) yes, remittances are a crucial factor for the pakistani economy, especially now.
b) i'm much more sceptical about westernisation's perception in Pakistan. Forget modern notions of free will, gender equality etc, there is trouble distributing polio vaccine in many parts of Pakistan. Apart from possibly north korea, i can't think of a country or region that is so vehemently against the "Age of Reason".

Zardari is no fool, thankfully, and has played his cards very well so far - from outmaneuvering NS, the deposed Chief Justice, disbanding the ISI political wing, abolishing the NSC. Moreover, Kayani seems to be a no-nonsense professional soldier (touch wood) However, in my opinion, setting a bold precendent, gaining massive international capital and takign the moral high ground is an option Zardari can take - if he were bold enough to act on the evidence.

Bori bhai, I don't think Hindu moral indignation would have any weight with a Muslim, and that is the point both of us have to understand.

But you are quite right on the second point. Hindus need to improve their own systems - not to convince any Muslim - which is neither necessary nor possible - but for their own safety.

HP yar i dont care about dawood..keep him. i dont think he is good for pakis..but that is your problem.

i though you want to see his notice. i actually agree with you that indian state is very weak to actually do something about these things and they should be doing things. its a soft state a-la gunner myrdal.

Shankar,

Your post deserves the response like thamedji's # 240

If this satisfies you, then good luck to you and to us -

(a) Zardari is a smart guy
(2) Pakistanis love Indians.

LOL


May be, that's what we Indians need to be happy and safe.

#242 be: "Hindus would be better served if they profesionalised their law enforcement, intelligence and judicial system"

agreed. and the same applies to pakistan, i have no doubt you will agree. we would all be better off.

HP #235 If Zardari can pull this one off, i.e. managing the post-mumbai fallout, he could well bring about a paradim shift in India-Pakistan relations. And it is clear he knows the stakes he is playing with. We shall probably know the answer in a few days where he is headed.