India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

Aha Snark read my post again if u didnt get it. Hindu Moral indignation would have more weight if the antimuslim violence was not routine and unpunished in India or if its perpetrators were brought to book instead of being elected to office.

Hindus would be better served if they profesionalised their law enforcement, intelligence and judicial system.

All of you good people who are going the 'evidence' route with Pakistanis deserve a special salute. You must have the patience of God Himself to still maintain hope.

Shankar #232 Well said. Zardari, despite his shortcomings, has proved clear-headed on the terrorism issue. And he has shown the political smarts so far: 1. He sought and got PMLN and other political parties (excluding the religious parties, but who dont matter anyway in the NA after the last elections) to support him in responding to mumbai; 2. Without fanfare, last week he disbanded the NSC, which had given legal cover to military interference in politics.

As for the people of Pakistan - Indians have only to remember how warmly they have received them when they visit Pakistan (including the time a few years ago when several thousand Indian cricket fans were pleasantly surprised at the hospitality and friendliness shown to them not just by ordinary Pakistanis but by police as well).

#236 Posted by jang on December 2, 2008 12:24:40 pm
HP yar here the interpol notice

Okay good....Now go and ask the Interpol to send its people to Pakistan and arrest him. Let the interpol deal with that.

#233 Posted by Aha_Snark

You are an intelligent man. Newspaper article don't constitute evidence. Let the indian government come out with some official statement and evidence and only then it would officials.

shankar,

Not sure what you meant. So we need a 'friendly' government in Pakistan even if it can do nothing and does nothing to help India against terror arising from Pakisani soil?

Why on earth do we need such a government?

Is it because all other options will be worse? May be at some point Indians should explore other options.

HP yar here the interpol notice

http://www.interpol.int/public/Data/NoticesUN/Notices/Data/1993/93/19 93_14193.asp

Address:
WHITE HOUSE, NEAR SAUDI MOSQUE, CLIFTON in KARACHI (Pakistan)

#228 Posted by tahmed32
"I dont think you can call this Dawood a "Pakistani intelligence asset". An intelligence assets provides info about the enemy military. If he is not even in India, then he cant be doing that."

I did not say for sure he is an intelligence asset. But he could be working for the pakistani intelligence when he was in India. An intelligence asset does not necessarily have to be an informer. He can be used for subversive acts. The new intelligence is not about military alone. We never know but some Pakistani agent might be in the top BJP leadership also.

I generally agree that there is no reason for Pakistan to hold on to him. But IF he was an intelligence asset, he might have information that the Pakistan intelligence would not let Indians have it through interrogating him.

Anil, the truck was stopped at the outside gate by the security. It never got to the main lobby...go look at the video again you are just being a nuisance now.

Aha_Snark #224: I basically agree with everything you say, and certainly wont deny that things look bad. But I see the half full part of the glass as well:

1. If Pakistanis are migrating to other countries, they will become assets to Pakistan in the longer run (remittances, charity donations, and most important, opening up of minds).

2. Civil society in Pakistan has proved its mettle, and inspired thinking people with their courage and understanding of the difference between right and wrong - from Mukhtaran Mai to the Chief Justice. Babus (fauji and civilian) can only wonder how people who cant speak english like they end up being celebrities.

3. Musharraf and Zia before him set such miserable examples of military rule that it is hard to imagine a military general having the nerve to take over Pakistan again (I could be wrong here, of course).

4. Most important, wherever the rest of the world goes, so goes every other country on the planet, including Pakistan. Traditional cultures the world over (whether it is India or Pakistan) have failed in the face of what used to be called "westernization", but what is more aptly called the "Age of Reason" which had its cradle in the west but whose enormous practical advantages have moved even ancient cultures like China to look to the west as the model for political and economic development (The best seller in China a few years ago was: "How to get your child admission in Harvard").

Re: # 229 borivili_express

India shouldn't protest or be aggrieved by terrorism, which, by several latest accounts [1] [2] [3] was planned in Pakistan. Because India didn't send Narendra Modi to the Hague? What's the link?

[1] http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Mumbai-Terror-Attack-Plan-Revealed/A rticle/200812115170931
[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/asia/03mumbai.html?_r=1&hp
[3] http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/more-on-the-captured-gunman/

I feel that the sympathy & grief that has come out of Pakistan has been genuine & heartfelt. I feel most Pakistanis condemn this as vehemently as any other people. I also feel Zardari administration had nothing to do with this.

Zardari has gone out of his way to be friendly with India. I think he genuininely believes that an Indo-Pak rapproachment is in the best interests of both countries. I never trusted Musharraf. He has played a double game right from the beginning. It finally caught up to him.

Zardari's wife was killed by the ISI/Army (overtly or covertly). Nobody can prove anything, but c'maan, the ISI/Army definitely had a hand. If Zardari cant get the ISI to find out who is behind his wife's killing, how in Allah's name can he find any ISI-LeT-Mumbai connection?

Yeah, like all Indians I'm pissed off. However, if the GoI is trying to deflect the blame to Pakistan to draw heat from themselves, its going to blow up on them.

The only long term solution to this is that Pakistan has a friendly civilian govt & the GoI encourages them to be stronger.

#224 Posted by Aha_Snark

I don't dispute what you are saying. Pakistan is in seriously bad shape. We can blame it on anything, the army, the US or the Islamists but one reality remains that many countries in the world have gone through similar crises and have survived them. I mean just look at India and how many crises it has faced in the last 62 years including the division.

Pakistan has an added problem that it is not a natural state. That means it would take it a long time to develop national cohesion and every crisis would damage efforts to turn it in to a natural State. In the process it might collapse and one should be ready to accept that reality too. After the disastrous 30 years, the recovery process is going to be arduous. I think there are some positive signs out there. One sign is finally the civilian government no matter how weak it looks now but slowly people would be more willing to defend it rather than allow the other forces to bring it down. Pakistan has shed the religious parties hold over the country and slowly the ideological make up would change too.

The Terrorism in any country hurts both countries. While India has started its journey towards a hindu nationalist state, chances of Islamic nationalist to gain control in Pakistan are diminishing fast. The Mumbai incident is a set back and I have said it before that the right wing would benefit in both countries. I think in India the gain would be telling. The congress party is already BJP light. But in Pakistan, the right wing onslaught would be manageable.

Btw, people leave country and they make up several reasons for that. But a majority of Pakistanis would stick with the country because they are really the sons of the soils first and Pakistani citizen later.

Re: # 214

HP sahib:

There is video out regarding Marriott bombing. They could neither stop the truck nor the bombers. There is no need to be Quioxotic about it.

Unarmed or lightly armed security is no match to truck load of bomb, or to heavily armed terrorists with grenades and automatic assault rifles. This is why there is terrorism. May be in the part you live or come from, the equation is different.

For Hindus everything should be according to their sense of moral outrage: if they feel outraged by terrorism the whole world should shend bend over backwards, this is their sense of enitltement. On the other hand they will elect genociders like Thakeray and Modi etc to high office, and it is unreasonable of others to even question that, and unimaginable to askk that these guys be punished or brought to justice or that the state amd media take steps to prevent or reduce this from happening again.

Even a bum state like serbia has sent its genociders to the international courts, while their Hindu counterparts continue to luxurate and hold political power leave aside facing legal action, but the rest of the world should bend over for them. The irony of this or the futility of it never strikes them, for the present situation appears to them to be absolutely natural.

Similarly they want immediate action against pakistan and terrorists not realising they cant coerce Pakistan, while they can improve and professionalise their own security structure including intelligence and courts which will in addition to preventing future attacks also serve to prevent the pogroms which take away the credibility of the state and society's moral indignation

HP: I dont think you can call this Dawood a "Pakistani intelligence asset". An intelligence assets provides info about the enemy military. If he is not even in India, then he cant be doing that. If he has been breaking Indian laws in India, then the Zardari government should have a credible legal process and hand him over. I assume there is no extradition treaty between the two countries - and the Zardari government should offer a standard extradition treaty as well. What does Pakistan have to gain by giving sanctuary to fugitives from justice?

I meant neither government.