India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

"The biggest tragedy of this modern world, with its information/internet/media explosion, is that nothing is seen as credible anymore."

No, KCS. That is not true. Despite their vast political difference the rest of the world is able to create many common understandings of facts, evidence is more or less accepted. But not with these guys.

With them the objective is not to look at any evidence at all, but continue what they do. No dicussion of any evidence will get anywhere. It is not meant to.

Borivilli, and neither side is being honest.

HP, Tahmed and others

I apologise if I'm coming across as cutting but I think I've hit a new low as far as my assessment of the surat-e-haal of Pakistan is concerned. I've been reading the Pakistani press every single day since the late 90s. I have made friends with and spoken to Pakistanis through skirmishes, sanctions, sabre-rattling, coups, detentes, cricket diplomacy and a merry-go-round ride of Pakistani technocrats and diplomats, feudal lords and Savile Row familiars

From a country that's endearing yet flawed, it has slowly, before my horrified eyes, started to come apart at the seams. My dear friend laughed at me 8 years ago when I asked her if she and her family ever thought of emigrating from Pakistan. Today, she and her entire family are ready to leave their posh Islamabad home, their property liquidated, their home in Dubai ready.

And yet, the peace process should continue? But who are we talking to? This most tenuous civilian government which cannot stop Members of Parliament from justifying the burying alive of women? A civilian government that has had to give everyone and their aunt a Ministership, just to pacify them all?

Take a leaf out of the playbook of the Indian Muslims. Why have no riots, not even the slightest signs of them, broken out in India? I believe that some part of that is because of Indian Muslims strongly (even if, in some cases, performatively) disowning terrorism and refusing the claim to co-religion of the terrorists.

Strengthen the forces in India that are calling for peace. Disown your old biases and take those bold steps. Silence the right in India by actually working with the aggrieved country - the Indians - and by taking the moral high ground and stating clearly that no person, however thick the layers of Islam he perverts and twists around himself, can do such and such things with impunity.

The only people who you strengthen by non-cooperation are the Indian right, who will reap rich rewards in the coming elections. If you support a moderate government in India, support it in more than just lip service.

So there is equation there.

So there is NO equation there.

#220 Posted by Aha_Snark

“a) would you be opposed to an Indian investigation team coming to Pakistan and questioning Javed Miandad, his son, his daughter-in-law and other leads for clues as to the whereabouts of Dawood Ibrahim?�

Whatever Daud Ibrahim did was before his daughter’s marriage but that is really irrelevant.
India knows his whereabouts already. At least that is what Indians are saying. But as I said if Daud Ibrahim was a Pakistani intelligence asset, then you might as well forget it. Or be ready to do a spy swap. Now I don’t know if India holds any Pakistani of high value for a swap. However, if India has the Interpol warrant then India should pursue him via the Interpol.

Imo, it would be easy to give up Masood Azhar and Pakistani should give him to Indians if and that is a big if, India is willing to move forward with a dialog.

Now the question is about US and Pakistani agreement of handing over the terrorism suspects. First, India is not US. So there is equation there. Second, Pakistan and India have a history of acrimonious relations over many issues and all issues have to be on the table.

Indian ho ya Pakistani aadmi desi hi rahega. Pakistan had agreed to send the ISI chief but Mr Pranab Mukherjee was making angry demands on the hotline with them, the fool thought he was making a public speech. Pakistanis being equaly paindu got "angry" and decided to send a lower ranking officer to show that they cant be cowed down.

when gods want to destroy someone they first do budhhi vinash

Re: # 196 HP

2. Getting 20 criminals back to India is hardly going to significantly change matters. At most; (a) it will signal some intent from the Pakistani state.

Not at all. It is forcing your desires on another State.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Unless you're saying that the request ("handing over wanted criminals for investigation and trial for acts of terrorism") is desired by India and opposed by Pakistan. Assume that the terrorist in custody has named a certain person in Pakistan as having provided training, counterfeit docuementation or equipment. Would you oppose handing over such a person for investigations or would you see it as a propaganda ploy?

a) would you be opposed to an Indian investigation team coming to Pakistan and questioning Javed Miandad, his son, his daughter-in-law and other leads for clues as to the whereabouts of Dawood Ibrahim?

b) given that (as anil says) Pakistan has given over custody of many many people to the US without clinching evidence in return for money, would you advise the Indian Government to route the request through the US State Department, for better results?

"It should be. 90 % of the murder cases in the US are decided on circumstantial evidence."


Let me correct that: before the DNA evidence, 90% cases in the US were decided on the circumstantial evidence.

#217 Posted by Aha_Snark
"Which country should the forensic experts be from, for their testimony to be counted by you as credible?"

Many countries can provide experts.

"In other words, circumstantial evidence would be acceptable as long as it came from diligent investigation?"

It should be. 90 % of the murder cases in the US are decided on circumstantial evidence.

Re: # 190 HP

Since the mistrust is the key here, international experts should be called in to rate the evidence.

Which country should the forensic experts be from, for their testimony to be counted by you as credible?

I think India needs to build a case based on circumstantial evidence which means that Indian intelligence agencies will need to do some serious work instead of shifting responsibilities.

In other words, circumstantial evidence would be acceptable as long as it came from diligent investigation?

The other option is to take out the suspects one by one. Indian agencies are certainly capable of doing that. In fact, they should have done that a long time ago instead of making lists.

^^ quoted for emphasis

HP sa'ab:

"“what would you accept as "credible evidence"?�

Sir, it is not for me to accept. The credible evidence is what most of the terrorism experts would believe is sufficient. Since the mistrust is the key here, international experts should be called in to rate the evidence. "

OK, next question to you: which international experts will you accept as being neutral and fair? Most probably, not the CIA or MI6 or Mossad. How about this self-styled expert called Zaid Hamid?

The biggest tragedy of this modern world, with its information/internet/media explosion, is that nothing is seen as credible anymore. The real truth can always be hidden under mounds of lies and convenient half-truths.

In the final analysis, satyameva jayate (the truth alone prevails). I can only pray that it happens in my lifetime.

aha_snark

Excellent point. One CAN be a leftist without being totally blind. (And probably a rightwinger without being totally inhuman).

Well, actually the security at Marriott did stop the truck at the entrance. Though It should have been stopped before that.

I think the terrorist should have made a phone call before getting to the door announcing their arrival at least 3 hours ahead of ETA.

Then and only then hotel security would have been ready....The joke is on you!

Re: # 210 aha_snark

anyhoo - welcome to the real world... :)

Re: # 208

Om:

"...HP how do you stop people who WALK in with guns blazing?..."

Idiots can, do and laugh.

Re: # 206

HP sahib:

"could not have stopped what took place,"

How do you live with this kind of idiots?

Do you honestly believe that security at these hotels, including Marriott in Islamabad, could have stopped these.

If you believe it, then most all will say you should use take the title that you liberally pass to others.