India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

be #336 When shivsena etc. commit their next crime, you can write lengthy posts about them. But right now, you are merely detracting from the crimes committed by LeT & co.

So let me ask you: Do you agree that Zardari should follow-up on his good words and actually take the scum who did mumbai out??

borivli, any idea why jihadis dont target modi or thakre? modi is pretty easy .. thakre is not that hard either. are they afraid of the backlash if chota-sardar or hridaysamrat are jihadofied? afik, thakre lives in a modest house 200 yards from east-bandra, a huge mussalman ghetto. modi mixes often with people with pretty low level security.

See these members of the sangh (BJP/Bajrang/VHP) and shiv sena are as ideological and fascist as the jihadis they have worked patiently for over 50 years gneration after generation to achieve their goal. and their guru said that only 2 to 3% of the population has to be converted to their org and they can take over society

I will gve you example one day after godhra and a day before riots started gujarati newspapers published stories of hindu women being kidnapped from godhra and their dead bodies with breasts cut being found naked on railway tracks near godhra, later investigation showed nothing of this sort happened. Similarly that nanavati report on godhra was based on the testimony of a sole petrol pump attendant who said he soled petrol to muslims, later tehelka did a sting where that guy admitted he was bribed and pressurised by the police to give this testimony infront of the commision. the commision itself was biased. conveniently the day tehelka made this public a bomb was set of in the evening in a delhi suburb and the media blanked out this story, who did this lone blast wasnt clear because no one claimed responsibility.

see the efforts of the hindu right over the past 50 years has paid off . the RSS schools, labor orgs, RSS shakhas, colleges and student orgs, teachers and bajrang dal/vhp type of orgs means their members and graduates have infiltrated every organisation since the late seventies including media, police, judiciary and now have even been elected to power this would have been unthinkable 30 or 35 years ago and the trend is only increasing.

And despite very strong colonial hate speech laws in India none of the hindu leaders thakarey, Modi, Advani etc has ever been tried or booked by the govt, by the courts either before or after the riots, for that there is ample evidence in papers, infact the regional language papers themselves are the most communal and publish poison against the muslims as well as spread rumours which have been very effective in instigating riots in Gujarat, Bombay, Babri riots etc. This speaks something about the role of regional media courts and govt and the entrenched antimuslim prejudice.

DM #328 I am glad you find such world-reknowned think tanks and as Chowk Unplugged as the source of your information.

Re kcs
"Thackeray and Modi are no angels. Thackeray and his ilk, in my view, are some of the great morons of modern India, and it is testimony to the state of our nation/society that such people even get to become leaders. Modi is guilty of inaction during the Gujarat riots (and he has also been accused of instigation and tacit complicity). There are Hindus who support them because they feel that such people are required to counter the threat of extremist Islam .....

BTW, in his current term as Gujarat CM, Narendra Modi has been seen to be doing a very good job as an administrator. This is no condoning of his past sins, but just FYI."


See this is whre as a muslim my perception defers from yours I se Thakaray and Modi as criminals for murdering and raping, men women and children I dont see them as morons etc. and I dont care if they were good administrators just as I wouldnt for milosovic or Hitler, by the way they didnt rape or murder anybody with their own two hands either except for giving orders. and dawood is a criminal but i see their crimes preceding and exceeding his both because of the role they had in govt or because of the scale or both.

MaheshG #321 "Now they claim that they never supported LeT in the first place and Tahmed claims that the Pakistani civil society has shown its mettle. "

How does my pointing to (not mere "claim") the fact that the Pakistani civil society has shown its mettle (by getting rid of a dictator) relate to "they never supported LeT in the first place"? If you wish to quote me, then cut and paste what I wrote. Dont misrepresent what I said - and then have the nerve to accuse Pakistanis of "duplicity" in the same breath.

hamidm #303 You should have known that those two lancers standing behind Zardari were the Royal Coat of Arms of the Bhutto Dynasty. For the very smart man that he obviously is, it is surprising he did not tell whoever set his elaborate stage to get those two jokers off-camera.

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HP#315:

The Hindu correspondant did not say anything that has not been noticed by many foreign observers or even some Pakistanis, here is what one Pakistani noted on UP:
"Not so Stukay, Army can be subservient to the civilians and can do this good deed. You have no idea how much support in Pakistan there is of these bastards (Al-Qaeda and Taliban). During my last trip to Lahore a few months ago, I was at a top brass dinner and every maderchood was saying how important it was for Pakistan to have these rogue elements. There will be no Taliban or al-Qaeda had it not had support of Pakistan at all levels. Indians are stupid to think that either the GOP or the Pak Army will take care of this problem. If anyone is to take care of it, it has to be the Americans, or the Indians. "

A reading of any Urdu newspaper would corroborate this observation.

Re: # 312 Dost

Dost, agreed. The Pakistani jihadi virus is a global problem, not just India's. It may have been initially directed at Indian troops in Kashmir, but now its agenda is global. Increasingly, India's position is being accepted in world capitals.

Just like the US did not go it alone in Afghanistan, India cannot defang the jihadi virus alone. The tide of time is in India's favor and against the Pakistani elites who still have a hard time comprehending all that's going on. This attack was further proof that the jihadis recognize that they have to escalate and do something dramatic to change the dynamic. If the Pakistani state does not stand up, you can be assured that its demise is not far off. Already there is talk of putting FATA in some sort of UN trusteeship.

Dear Indians and Non-Pakistanis,
Following this discussion on this board, I'd only say that Indian response shouldn't be thought of in terms of a two-state (Pak vs. India) model.
Pakistan, imo, is not a state. It is a security apparatus run by Pakistan Army with varying level of support from Pakistanis.
Pakistan Army and the ideology (TNT) it represents and the society engineered by Pak. Army has, due to technology coupled with Islamism, become
even more severe threat to the stability of Afghan-Indian region than what it'd come to represent to Bengalis and Minorities in the past.
Since, Pakistan is not a stable state, therefore, thinking in a cold-war paradigm is wrong, there could not be a sequential if-then-not-else response
to Islamic brand of nihilism mastered by Pak. Army. In a short-term, the response could be thought of as internationalizing the problem of Pakistani Terrorism.
In the long term, I agree with Kaalchakra, Pakistani state's disintegration in its constituent parts is, imo, the only way to get rid of the Security Apparatus.
Pak. Army is like the operating system on a computer that has TNT as its boot-up sequence. Zardari, Sharif et al. are unfortunately nobodies.

#287 Posted by om_prakash on December 2, 2008 4:46:42 pm
Borivilli that was an excellent point about other Dawoods rising up when the underlying cause is not addressed. But what is the underlying cause that gives rise to the mafia I wonder. There has to be justice both for Dawood and for Thakre. But all I hear you say is if there isn't justice for one there shouldn't be for the other either. It's a twisted sort of corollary.
BTW is Dawood a spokesman/representative of Indian muslims or even marathi muslims"

One Great Revolutionary civli rights victim leader MLK said

INJUSTICE anywhere is threat justice everywhere

Pakistan can't silence

& lets now be naive that ISI and Agencies in Pakistan silence the family of the captured terrorist or relocate them or could even lock them up.

So state and non-state actors can act in tandem to deflect criticism.

We should not forget that 5th July 2005 bombers were indoctrinated, trained in Pakistan by the (ex)armymen & sent by the groups there but were portrayed as British-born and bred (no doubt) by Mush govt.

Brit they were on paper but their motivation was to kill Brits as 'they' occupied 'our' (Muslim) lands was the msg of the fidayeens.