India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

Proof my foot.

India was giving proof to both Pakistan and the US since PV Narasimha Rao's time abt the terror training camps in Pakistan. Pak rejected the proofs and US looked away. Now US interests are partly tied with India's, therefore they are speaking in fav of India now.

India has not sought help nor expertise from US but Robert Gates made an unusual admission that they had their own intelligence on Mumbai. They too had info on Kabul attack on Indian embassy, which Pakistan refused to admit despite US's persistence.

Now a theoretical scenario can be made that Pakistan can send a hundred fidayeean to Indian cities and cripple the state so badly and can let their army attack India effortlessly. Sounds simplistic but a scary scenario that is possible as we have many fifth columnists in India.

Pakistanis ask proof from non-Indian sources and when provided they want the same sources to deal with the problem.

Looks like they still want to do nothing while claiming that they are doing everything in power to disown terrorism.

Before LeT was declared a terrorist group by the US Pakistanis were claiming that they only give moral support to LeT and it was not a terrorist group.

Now the tune has changed. Now they claim that they never supported LeT in the first place and Tahmed claims that the Pakistani civil society has shown its mettle. The only thing it has shown is its duplicity.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mumbai3-2008dec03,0,5248759. story

Pakistan faces further pressure with Rice's arrival in the region today after she cut short a Europe trip to focus on growing tension between the South Asian neighbors and rivals. Also arriving today is Navy Adm. Michael G. Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Mullen was to visit both Pakistan and India, though details of his schedule were not released for security reasons.

Lashkar was blamed for the attack in public remarks Tuesday by U.S. Director of National Intelligence J. Michael McConnell. McConnell did not name the organization, but said the attackers were from the same group responsible for Mumbai train bombings in 2006 that killed more than 200. Indian authorities have blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba for those attacks.

"This same group that we believe is responsible for Mumbai had a similar attack in 2006 on a train that killed a similar number of people," McConnell said in an address at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. "If you examine the groups that we think are responsible, the philosophical underpinnings are very similar to what Al Qaeda puts out in their view of how the world should be. "


Tahmed sahib, do you need more proof?

#288 Borivli_express

"I never said dawood should not be assasinated, all I said is muslims find it hypocritical that hindus want him dead because his victims are mostly hindu and not thakeray whose victims are all muslim and a)whose act preceded dawoods and b)killed and buchered more people"

Hindus want Dawood dead because his victims were mostly Hindu?

I'd rather that this read thus: Indians want Dawood tried/brought to justice because he is a criminal. And a big one at that. The fact that he is being brazenly sheltered by another country also makes it an issue of diplomacy and international crime.

Ask any Hindu why he wants Dawood brought to justice and he/she will not say "because he killed so many Hindus". It's just your flawed perception.

Thackeray and Modi are no angels. Thackeray and his ilk, in my view, are some of the great morons of modern India, and it is testimony to the state of our nation/society that such people even get to become leaders. Modi is guilty of inaction during the Gujarat riots (and he has also been accused of instigation and tacit complicity). There are Hindus who support them because they feel that such people are required to counter the threat of extremist Islam (read http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2002/12/07/stories/2002120702460500.ht m). There is a huge number of Hindus that don't support them (just as there is a considerable number of Muslims with extremist views, and a large number of moderate Muslims too). Modi has been villainised by several sections of the Indian media.

But there is a difference between them and Dawood. Modi and Thackeray have been tried in court. They may have not been convicted (whatever the reasons may be), but they haven't exactly escaped the law and public fury (Thackeray today is a spent force politically). Inaction and instigation are crimes more difficult to establish than the direct association that Dawood has had.

BTW, in his current term as Gujarat CM, Narendra Modi has been seen to be doing a very good job as an administrator. This is no condoning of his past sins, but just FYI.

I completely share your feelings on the inefficacy and corruption of India's critical systems - the police, judiciary and government. The police, which is the common man's direct interface to the law, can act as the true guardians of law only when they are modernised and freed from the shackles of political interference.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/asia/03mumbai.html?hp

U.S. and India See Link to Militants in Pakistan

If you Pakistanis really want peace please prove it with deeds rather than words.

Thanks. Looking forward to some meaningful responses from the other side.

#169 by Goldfinger

And is any one ever going to mention anything of the muck that those nuggets at RAW been perpetrating in Pakistan...whether they have a hand in any nefarious activities there, murders of innocents, destruction of Marriot Islamabad, bombings and other stuff like that...they are after all pure angels...can do no evil...still one wonders

Yaar GF, no one is saying the RAW is innocent (nor should it be, given the menace the ISI has become). So if you have proof, why don't you start a thread on Unplugged or write an FP article and we can discuss it? I have a lot to say about the Marriott and other stuff going on in Pakistan.

So please! This discussion is about the Mumbai attacks and we're discussing who the perpetrators could be. Overwhelming evidence points towards Pakis. So far, all you've done is mock the Indian commandos and the poor emergency response. Not very encouraging.

#315 by HP

HP Sahib,

Why are you bent upon proving Pakistan's "innocence"? The story you posted is of another village by the same name but somewhere else in Punjab. The gunman comes from a village called Faridkot in Deepalpur tehsil in Okara district. I will see if I can dig out more info on this.

Looks like even ordinary Pakis are well-versed in the art of denial. Look at how the old man denies the man's existence (Shown a picture of the alleged militant, Daha said: "That's a smart-looking boy. We don't have that sort around here.") because he looks smart. LOL!

#310 Posted by dost_mittar
“And some Pakistanis would like us to believe that ordinary Pakistanis do not like jihadis because they do not vote for Islamist parties.
Any Indian foolish enough to buy that�

Yes, Indians are fools to believe that story by the Hindu that warpster posted. Here is a better and authentic story by someone who actually went there instead of the Hindu correspondent who would be lost outside of Chennai.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/02/stories/2008120259961000.htm
Praveen Swami made up the story in Hindu. See the real story here.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/56808.html

You will see a picture of the village too and he spoke fluent English...What have Indian been drinking?

FARIDKOT, Pakistan — For the past three days Pakistani intelligence agents and police have been combing this sleepy village in search of clues to the identity of the lone gunman captured in the Mumbai terror attacks, residents said on Monday.

Indian officials and news media officials identified him variously as Ajmal Amir Kamal, Azam Amir Kasav, or Azam Ameer Qasab, and Indian news media quoted police as saying that the alleged killer's home village was in Faridkot, near the city of Multan in the southern part of Pakistan's Punjab province.

Local residents, however, are bewildered and alarmed. They said there was no one of that surname in this village, and no missing resident who fit the pictures and description shown in the Indian news media.

"All the agencies have been here and the (police) special branch," said village elder Mehboob Khan Daha, referring to Pakistan's plainclothes counterterror police. "We have become very worried. What's this all about?" Agents from Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) also appeared to be present on Monday, questioning locals.

Shown a picture of the alleged militant, Daha said: "That's a smart-looking boy. We don't have that sort around here."

bori#311:

"in kargil pakis had shot down both indian fighters within seconds of them crossing paki airspace and he thinks india can do an afghanistan on pakistan because the USA did so?:

Did you read my whole statement? I had said,"But then, of course, India is no US and Pakistan no Afghanistan."

#311 by borivili_express

in kargil pakis had shot down both indian fighters within seconds of them crossing paki airspace and he thinks india can do an afghanistan on pakistan because the USA did so?

Yaar Borivili, here's the thing. India doesn't need to cross into Paki airspace to take out the terror camps. The missiles will do.

Secondly, there weren't two fighters. There was one MiG-21 and another was a helicopter (I forget the name). You don't need to do much to a MiG-21; it will crash anyway (there's a reason why it is nicknamed the Flying Coffin).

HP#165:

"It is clearly that Indian State is being controlled by completely inept lunatics. Within this year they have seen at least three major attacks on the civilian structures still they have no system to deal with the emergencies in some major cities. Any government which fails to provide these basic services to its people is clearly morally bankrupt and intellectually incapable of providing leadership. We see that in how they are dealing with a major crisis any government could face."

For once, I fully agree with you.

is this dost mittar some 15 year old kid? in kargil pakis had shot down both indian fighters within seconds of them crossing paki airspace and he thinks india can do an afghanistan on pakistan because the USA did so? the US has a 650 billion dollar defense budget with fighter bombers that cant be detected by most radar systems, precision munitions, radar jammers and the worlds largest airforce, drones and tomahawk cuise missiles which can be launched from air and sea plus satellites

"When he returned home for a two-month break after his indoctrination at the Lashkar base camp, he found a respectability within his community and family that had eluded him most of his life. Where Iman had earlier been seen as a burden, he was now self-sufficient — and bore the halo of religious piety."

And some Pakistanis would like us to believe that ordinary Pakistanis do not like jihadis because they do not vote for Islamist parties.
Any Indian foolish enough to buy that?

tahmed32:

"As for your question on what the Indian government should do, I think the answer is obvious - do what the US government has done so far.:

The US govt. bombed Afghanistan to stone age when it suspected, without any proof, that the attacks on WTC were inspired by someone in that country.

But then, of course, India is no US and Pakistan no Afghanistan.

hamidm after reading stuka's post from WSJ its possible these men might be indian muslims but even if they are there is no way they can get this amount of weapons and explosives without outside help

nkg, mohar & others:

We Indians on chowk are as pathetic as the Indian govt., showing impotent rage. The Indian govt. will continue to issue threats and the Pakistanis will continue to ask for "evidence" because they rightly believe:

Na khanjar utthay ga na talwar un se
Yeh baazoo meray aazmaaye huwai hain!

tahmed:

It doesn't matter what you think of my remarks. They are the reality. India is not in a position to strengthen the civilian govt. and have to go on the assumption that they have to deal with the de facto leaders in Pakistan, which is the military establishment. And it seems that the military establishment is more in tune with what the Pakistani elite want.