India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cIG80dlUHA&feature=related

http://www.y outube.com/watch?v=WACjyXfBD_I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/wat ch?v=nvf2GP2XzVY

Re: # 154

Beena,

Yes, but a scenario where true democracy wins in Pakistan is extremely remote (whether such a scenario would help curb the situation is another debate altogether). It is, for all practical purposes, a purely theoretical outcome, hence to be discussed over tea.

To quote from my last post:

"The Army, even now, is the real power behind the throne, and it's just a matter of time before it actually, again, gets back physically on the throne. Real democracy in Pak is an extremely remote possibility.

And the Muslim League's and independent Pak's history give me no reason to believe otherwise."

This civilian government is just an interlude, an eyewash, if you will. The Army is there and it will come back as it has done since the past 60 years. Even today the ISI chief can flout Zardari's orders with impunity.

If you can convince me otherwise, using any historical data then, trust me, I'd me happy to be proved wrong. But just "hoping" is going to be quite useless.

Hamidm2 miaN, when the US and India and Israel attack Pakistan jointly, who will you support?!

Re: # 292

salim mian,

.... what did you think of the two presidential bodyguards with lances standing behind his highness ? ........ sitting in my living room in the us i found it a bit embarassing - rmeinded me of some of those african kings in their leopard kings surrounded by bare breasted women and warriors with painted faces ........ no?

...... can you tell the horrible hindoos to hold off their attack on pakistan until i get back from my vacation? ...... these indians on chowk seem to be on the war path - they are beginning to scare me

zang #301: dont ever make the mistake of saying anything good about pakistan!!

tahmed..this is a stanard routine pakis do..mushy was also once famous for his nice suits, collegial demeanor and was a darling of media..even in agra. heck, even jia ul haq was feted nicely in the white-house and khilaod biscut and a treated to a pat on his head.

#296 parthaab: as our Visionary Leader Zardari (formerly known as Mr. 10%, but hell, he is proving to be worth 200% to Pakistan in his response to mumbai!!) put it - terrorists are stateless individuals who want to get nations to fight one another. The way to defeat them is for nations to join hands and fight terrorists instead.

Your points on treating people with respect rather than trying to bully them into submission is an important part of the long-term solution.

Remember who said this : 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'? India has been fighting this low intensity war for many years now with Pakistan. Just think - why have we not been succesful so far?

One more strike in Pakistan, as encouraged by the rightists, will only INCREASE animosity - and is against the principles of a TRULY peaceful people.

America got away with Iraq, only because the terrorists cannot strike back due to the distance, UNLIKE in the case of India. So there can be NO a comparison, unlike what the America worshippers think.


India is bleeding again and what should India DO to bring REAL peace?



1. The politicians should engage the extremists and negotiate with them on ALL issues, INCLUDING a peaceful end to the Kashmir situation, which could not be wished away, ever since 1947, and remains a bleeding wound! We cannot afford to pass this on to our next generation.

2. Punish policemen and judges guilty of provoking counter violence by the general public in J&K. Invariably, violence around the world is intimately linked to the lack of genuine and free methods of REDRESSAL of grievances of the population. ( The live terrorist has said he did it for money! ) Similarly, the TRPS activist mediamen like Arnab Goswami, should be punished, and not merely reprimanded.

3. Make corruption, communal, casteist, and misandrous ( ? feminist ) politics a crime, punishable by hanging, similar to anti-nationalism.

4. Punish mothers, priests, and school teachers, guilty of brainwashing young school children, that RELIGION is 'peaceful', when facts show it is clearly not.

The question is, will we have the guts to go the easier way ( war, sitting on sofas, and hoping and wishing ), or the tougher way, as listed above.

Only time will tell.

Remember who said this : 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'? India has been fighting this low intensity war for many years now with Pakistan. Just think - why have we not been succesful so far?

One more strike in Pakistan, as encouraged by the rightists, will only INCREASE animosity - and is against the principles of a TRULY peaceful people.

America got away with Iraq, only because the terrorists cannot strike back due to the distance, UNLIKE in the case of India. So there can be NO a comparison, unlike what the America worshippers think.


India is bleeding again and what should India DO to bring REAL peace?



1. The politicians should engage the extremists and negotiate with them on ALL issues, INCLUDING a peaceful end to the Kashmir situation, which could not be wished away, ever since 1947, and remains a bleeding wound! We cannot afford to pass this on to our next generation.

2. Punish policemen and judges guilty of provoking counter violence by the general public in J&K. Invariably, violence around the world is intimately linked to the lack of genuine and free methods of REDRESSAL of grievances of the population. ( The live terrorist has said he did it for money! ) Similarly, the TRPS activist mediamen like Arnab Goswami, should be punished, and not merely reprimanded.

3. Make corruption, communal, casteist, and misandrous politics a crime, punishable by hanging, similar to anti-nationalism.

4. Punish mothers, priests, and school teachers, guilty of brainwashing young school children, that RELIGION is 'peaceful', when facts show it is clearly not.

The question is, will we have the guts to go the easier way ( war, sitting on sofas, and hoping and wishing ), or the tougher way, as listed above.

Only time will tell.

#292 pakiturk: good summary. zardari was very good in the interview. and this was part of his broader response to mumbai, which he has done a great job of pulling the country together in the response with the successful multi-party conference.

Bori, none of that is in dispute, and has to be addressed, but you will agree that the mumbai attack was basically a Pakistani attack on India.

The issue of Indian Muslims and the issue of Pakistani attack on india are different from each other (unless we accept Pakistanis as representatives of Indian Muslims and Indian Muslims as resident Pakistanis) and it is neither right nor wise to link the two or treat them interchangeably.

Both Hindus and Muslims in Mumbai have been killed by Pakistanis. Whether we are Hindus or Muslims, this is Pakistan's war on all of us - not by all of pakistan but surley by a signficant and powerful section of its populace. That's how it must be appraoched.

Again, treating Pakistan as the representative of Indian muslims or Indian Muslims as Pakistanis in residence is not good for anyone (except for Pakistanis). It's not even totally true. Let's keep the two separate.

Now that we have been, again, ruthlessly attacked by Pakistanis, the question for all Indians is - what do we do with different actors - the zardaris and the kayanis and the sarwars - in Pakistan?

Re: # 294 Kaal

"There is no way they are going to gain any control over Pakistan's military-militant group (against India, the two are the same)."

Then Pakistan is f@cked

Pew, my fear is that we may be both over-estimating and misreading asif zardaris and such - the so-called 'civilian government' of Pakistan.

There is no way they are going to gain any control over Pakistan's military-militant group (against India, the two are the same).

And they will never 'invite' India to help quell the militants. From what i have seen the civilian element in Pakistan is no less virulently anti-India than the military or the militant.

Hoping that by 'strengthening' the so-called civilian government of Pakistan, Indians would have found a friend and an ally seems extremely wishful thinking. But this is my hunch. Hopefully I am wrong, and after wasting another precious ten years, we will not be back to the same stage as we are in today, and were in 2001.

India's probs are much bigger than this 200 dead. India's police is extremely badly equiped and trained as was evident and the quality or raw material is no good either therefore under the strain of having to produce results from the public and politicians and with their anti muslim bias they just round up and lock up or torture thousands of muslim youths who are innocent while the real perpetrtors get away or they will kill them in false ecounters, creating more terrorists.

The judiciary and lawyers are deeply corrupt and the laws are colonial era ones which benefit them by dragging on cases, Ram Jethmalani tried to make small changes but all the lawyers went on a mass strike and because of electoral considerations he had to back off. The World Bank publishes a report called Doing Business one of its indicators is I think property rights or rule of law India i think ranks 80th out of 84 countries either because the average case takes two decades or bacuse of the corruption of the police/lawyers and judiciary. because of this the police is encouraged to go in with encounters either because of their inefficiency/lack of training they are not able to solve the case or get the evidence or if they do the courts will drag on so they just go in for a false encounter.

The police is so corrupt and communal it will not record even an FIR in case of communal riots in gujarat or bombay or even in cases of theft and violence unless you have some influence. any case district and upward to high court level can be won by bribing the lawyers and judges now some reports say say even supreme court judges are communal and take bribes.

You cannot hope to develop to first world economy with a third class law enforcement and judicial/law system it will lead to severe socio economic problems if you have a genuine anger or indignation first solve this.

Zardari on Larry King - some observations.

Overall performance - pretty fair - great improvement over Mushy.

Biggest mistake - Zardari should have said WWI and not WWII for the war started by a fanatic terrorist. He was talking about the Austrian Duke assassinated by the Serbian dude in Sarajevo in 1914.

Missed opportunity - Zardari should have stressed over and over (not just once) that he is one of the most obvious victims of these terrorist groups - after all his wonderful wife, BB, was cruelly killed by them. Also, Zardari should have countered that Pakistanis are now paying for the residue from the Soviet occupation and the ensuing "freedom" struggle in which Afghans, Pakis, Soodis, AND Americans cooperated with money, guns, and intrigue, including JIHAD. That unholy alliance created robotic fanatics and today you have the results of that policy, for which there is plenty of blame to go around.

Best performance - Zardari's response regarding what he will do if evidence is provided for the named individuals India is accusing of masterminding the attacks - Zardari said that Pakistan would try these people, and if found guilty, they would be sentenced IN PAKISTAN. So much for the Injun ultimatum to turn over the 20 odd people.

Pretty good overall, I would say - So glad that Mushy is gone. Also, Zardari had some very positive and optimistic things to say about his desire for good relations and cooperation with India.

Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Re: # 290
"That FATA fight has nothing to do with us."

Unless, one of the antagonists (militants) think that by pulling India into the fight by punching the Pakistani state (Zardari), they will get India to do what they could not do by themselves - overthrow of the Pakistani government. After every India-Pak war, there has been a fall of the Pakistani government. The militants think that the next war will produce a similar result in which they will occupy the political vacuum that will be created.

The ISI is looking for a pretext to move out of FATA and a war that they do not have the stomach to fight.

I see the Pakistan civil war growing in intensity. It is not too far fetched to think that the Pakistani government might turn to India to ask for help in finally quelling the militants. Without peace with India, it is a fight that they cannot win.