India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

Pew_Research and Other Indians

I am still not quite sure what use Beena Sawars and Asif Zardaris of Pakistan are to India (or to the rest of mankind).

They have no control over Pakistani military or Pakistan's Islamic militants, so anything to do with India is out of their hands.

Is any of us hoping that either with our moral support or without it Beena Sarwars and Asif Zardaris will grow strong enough to overpower Pakistani military and Pakistan's Islamic militants? If not, why waste time with either?

That FATA fight has nothing to do with us. It is an internal fight within Pakistani family, between two members of the family who have no difference between them when it comes to India - the military and the militants. Neither care two hoots for Beena Sarwar and Asif Zardari either.

So, what's the point? Again, is this the same old "no alternative" factor or something different we expect from Pakistan?

Pew_Research and Other Indians

I am still not quite sure what use Beena Sawars and Asif Zardaris of Pakistan are to India (or to the rest of mankind).

They have no control over Pakistani military or Pakistan's Islamic militants, so anything to do with India is out of their hands.

Is any of us hoping that either with our moral support or without it Beena Sarwars and Asif Zardaris will grow strong enough to overpower Pakistani military and Pakistan's Islamic militants? If not, why waste time with either?

That FATA fight has nothing to do with us. It is an internal fight within Pakistani family, between two members of the family who have no difference between them when it comes to India - the military and the militants. Neither care two hoots for Beena Sarwar and Asif Zardari either.

So, what's the point? Again, is this the same old "no alternative" factor or something different we expect from Pakistan?

I never said dawood should not be assasinated, all I said is muslims find it hypocritical that hindus want him dead because his victims are mostly hindu and not thakeray whose victims are all muslim and a)whose act preceded dawoods and b)killed and buchered more people

Borivilli that was an excellent point about other Dawoods rising up when the underlying cause is not addressed. But what is the underlying cause that gives rise to the mafia I wonder. There has to be justice both for Dawood and for Thakre. But all I hear you say is if there isn't justice for one there shouldn't be for the other either. It's a twisted sort of corollary.
BTW is Dawood a spokesman/representative of Indian muslims or even marathi muslims?

I think that the Mumbai attacks, unlike other previous terror attacks in India that could also be traced back to Pakistan, are a manifestation of a domestic war between the Pakistani home-grown militants and the new civilian govt. The Pakistani civil war has spilled over to Mumbai. The Pak military/ISI are hedging their bets and are not fully behind Zardari. The decision to backtrack on sending the ISI chief to India is an example of this discord. Here's why:

The Pakistani-home grown terrorists (Taleban, et al) are feeling the heat from NATO and an unwilling Pakistani military/ISI that is being forced to undertake the task of cleaning up FATA by NATO. The Pak military/ISI need a pretext to divert troops away from the unpleasant job of clearing FATA. The Pak militants lack a club big enough to overthrow the civilian government, one of their stated goals. This is where the attacks on Mumbai make ‘sense’ - provoke India into action that will simultaneously bring down the civilian government (advantage: militants) and provide a rationale for moving troops away from FATA (advantage: Pak military/ISI). The big club that the militants seek and do not yet have is an enraged India that makes military moves. They are hoping that the Pakistani state gets caught between the NATO hammer and the Indian anvil, and that they eventually emerge victorious in the ensuing anarchy once Pakistan descends into chaos.

The objectives of the militants and the ISI are aligned in this case, but for different reasons – the militants want to destabilize Pakistan and the ISI wants to provoke India and thereby create conditions for moving Pak army away from FATA. The fact that the ISI interests in this case are opposite of Zardari’s (i.e peace with India) is why they are not fully behind him. The militants would be quite satisfied with the destruction of the Pakistani state so that they could then supplant it with their own Talibanesque regime. The ISI, of course, would not. That is where the interests of the militants and the ISI diverge, with each assuming that they could successfully ride the tiger and shape events to their favor. It is a reckless game that each side is playing, but Zardari is in no position to forestall it alone. Hence the recent all-party meet. It remains to be seen if Pakistani politicians can tame the military and the militants. I would not bet on that happening, however desirable the outcome might be.

The militants are irascible – they will not bend and negotiate, and will not mind the dissolution of the Pakistani state. The only way to subdue them is through force. The ISI, though reckless, will not quite go so far as to accept the dissolution of Pakistan. That, then, gives the world potential leverage over it and finally cause it to turn wholeheartedly against the militants. That is the only logical path left to proceed and ope that the ISI mends its ways before it is too late for Pakistan. For more on this idea, read Robert Kagan’s ‘Pakistan’s Sovereignty Dodge’ in today’s The Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/01/AR2008120102438. html?hpid=opinionsbox1

same with this hafiz guy the problem is far bigger

I dont think its a question of hard or soft state, you dont need to be a hard state to send one or two guys into a third world mess like pakistan in order to assasinate dawood or hafiz, if cong canot then BJP could have done that, why didnt they? it wasnt as if they didnt have enough time they ruled india for 6 years, they did the nuclear tests in one month, organised guj rights in 2 days.

its because dawood is actually perepheral, the problem has gone far beyond him in scale and magnitude.

HP:

"....Now go and ask the Interpol to send its people to Pakistan and arrest him."

Interpol does not arrest people. It advises the national govt. to do so. Govts. can refuse.

......therefore continuation of this triangulation game played by Mush is the compulsion that Zaradari faces today. They would never shut down LeT groups nor they can round them up these elements.

If Zaradri tries too hard to quell the true jihadists in Pakistan he'd be packed shipped to heavens by the ISI+Army renagades.

this borivili is repeating what the Chebed House terrorists said on India TV.

'What the Israeli ppl are doing here (in Indian Kashmir)? Are Jewish ur maamas?'

The point is that what amount of straight face and dead-bats from Pakistan is not going to take away the underlying msg in these terrorist attacks.

Zardari is too secular and money-minded to wage jihad against India. His FM is too naive to talk anything seriously. If Zaradri tries too hard to quell the true jihadists in Pakistan he'd be packed shipped to heavens.

The Kayani boss is playing hide and seek with Americans by bartering GWOT with their 'just' fight fro Kashmir. Relocation of army means US would pressurise India to be naram, despite the bloodshed & this covert war on India by the Pak Army and ISI.

If the intl jihadi groups are busy fighting western forces in Pashtun areas, the subcontinental jihadi groups are fighting the mortal enemy of Pakistan aka Islam aka Ummah i.e India.

These Bombay attacks has the signature of Pak jihadi elements but somewhat mrophed with AQ ideology this time.

a. Pak TV shows linked Marriot bombings with Indian agencies. Now they attacked Taj Hotel.

b. The terrorists repudiated the presence of Jewish ppl in Indian Kashmir. It's the article of faith for Pakistani Army & ISI to speak for the 'solution' to Kashmir.

c. Tipu Sultan's famous quote is parroted by the terrorists on India TV (to live like a lion for a day that 100 yrs as a fox). The topic is taught in Pakistan in school/uni curriculum as part of Muslim History in the subcontinent.

d. The terrorists invoked Muslims of Hyderabad as they enjoy enormous financial muscle and are votaries of being southern Pakistan. The popular party there i.e. Majlis Ithehadul Muslameen (MIM) is the believer in the ideology of Razakaar Qasim Rizvi who fought against the accession of Hyderabad to India. Pak jihadis see Hyderabad as a bright spot in their plans for Islamisation of India.

e. Shut Bombay for a few days and u cripple India for a while financially. Pak jihadis would never try to cripple Ranchi or Musrhidabad.

these namak haraaamis in India need a bit more namak in their buunds while sparing the 'noraml' ppl.

borivli, just trying to understand..i understand why muslims want thakre or modi to be punished and are unhappy that they roam free. but i could not understand why YOU dont understand that indians want dawood to be punished. (he probably did kill some muslims too, but that is besides the point). so sure, dawood will be punished and maybe someone else will take his place, but we must do our dharma without worrying too much about fruits, no?

waisey, we have a lot of politicians in india with murder convictions (not just accusations) LOL.

Jang when Indians want dawood to be extradited and punished for his terrorism in 93 but not only not punish thakeray but elect him for his role in the riots before or Modi since, while they roam openy in India and are hailed as national leaders the claim to justice doesnt sound convincing.

Muslims feel the only reason the hinuds want dawood is because his victims are mostly hindus while the only reason india doesnt punish rioters and modi thackeray is because there victims are muslim

Chittagong:

What you report is true, then Pakistan needs to act and show results. All can be very good for Zardari, and Congress too, and for entire South Asia it will be marked as the beginning of new relations between neighbors.

Borivilli:

Kashmir will not get settled anymore than it is right now, for quite sometime. Mumbai is a game changing event.

Pak accepts terrorists may be from its territory

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/USA/Pak_accepts_terrorists _may_be_from_its_territory_US/articleshow/3786207.cms

http://www.stratfor.com /memberships/128267/analysis/20081202_pakistan_choosing_civil_strife_over_war_in dia

Stratfor has learned that Islamabad privately has conveyed an official message to Washington and New Delhi that the people involved in the attack have been identified, and that the Pakistani government will take action against them. We also have learned that Pakistan’s civil-military leadership has decided that Lashkar-e-Taiba must be neutralized because it is jeopardizing Pakistani security. The Pakistanis thus are willing to make tough concessions and liquidate those responsible for the attack as long as India holds back.