India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in Pakistan for Mumbai mayhem

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy

muqaddam, I haven't followed ALL of borivill's posts but I think it may be possible for everyone to find some broad agreements, for the good of all, even with people's differing perceptions.

Despite this terrible tragedy, Indian people have not lurched as much to right, or anti-Muslim, as one might have feared, and Muslim Indians have acted as all other Indians. This should give us a great deal of hope.

It is exactly the mindset of people like the poster of #367 that is making life difficult for the Muslims in India. There have been several attacks by Pakistani(or Pakistan backed) Muslim terrorists in India in the recent past and there has not been even one retaliation against the minority community, because the majority community also understands it is the handiwork of Pakistan.
The majority of Muslims in India are poor and worried about there daily bread. Muslims would be in fact defenceless if the majority were really to go after them.
The demand of the time requires solidarity among all Indians and not Hindu Muslim bashing.
The enemy in this case is in Pakistan and will pay for his actions if not the hands of India, then by self destruction.

Re: # 307
DM...
I am not showing rage....I am just treating these moslas as human....

Majumdar writes "The other possibility is Pak Army to destablise the civilian Govt. But plausibly the former."

That is no possibility at the present. The Pakistan Army brought this current government to power to salvage itself. The previous possibility of "rogue elements" is BS given the facilitation hurdles and the sophistication of the attacks. Somehow these rogues managed to get to India undetected with massive firepower, outdid the Indian commandos with their backyard training and all died except one, yeah give me a goddamned break. That is some BS that you all have come to spew. The Americans did it with full knowledge and participation by the Indians.

Have a nice day and get an education and take that idiot Kulharee with you

Of course, Indians have to do something to stop the terrorism. But just what?

After so many decades of listening to war-mongerers and feminists like Indira Gandhi, we still cry 'war', but fail to do ANYthing in the end, to even do what is really needed - like beefing- up the MEN in the forces, fixing responsibility, negotiating Kashmir, etc.

This is the crux of the problem - the danger of crying 'war' is that in the end, we neither fight a war, NOR do what is really ESSENTIAL!

Re: # 378

you can add this to your thinking loud in idle time .For the dead and families its meaningless who did it how & why

Hindu Zionists behind Mumbai Attacks - Zaid Hamid


Written by Inam Abidi Amrohvi · December 03, 2008 · 798




I felt that a section of the Indian media acted a little immature by linking the terrorists to Pakistan even before the official word. Playing to the gallery gets you TRPs but doesn’t help the greater cause. Agreed the men came from Pakistan (as shared by the government later) but the country is itself fighting the same monster. It’s high time that we work together on countering this threat together rather than play the age old blame game. If Pakistan is serious we will get closer to the people who masterminded the Mumbai carnage. And for that it needs to do more than just mere assurances.

Replying to the Indian claims of the terrorists coming from Pakistan, a TV channel (News One) there has come up with its own weird conspiracy theory. I couldn’t watch the entire programme as it was too far fetched to digest and in a way mocked the sacrifices of some very brave men.

The video features Zaid Hamid. Hamid is an idependent Pakistani security expert and also the founder of BrassTacks - a Pakistani Think Tank devoted to the study of regional and global political events and their influence on Pakistan. He comes from a military background having signed up as a volunteer in the Afghan war. His jihadi roots speaks for his biased opinions and weird logic. On a lighter note he is a good entertainer with his kind of imagination.

Have a look-

http://www.brasstacks.pk/brasstacks/Default.aspx?TabId=159

What can I say other than we have to shed aside our differences if we are to fight a common enemy. The electronic media needs to be more restrained in their approach. Such telecasts only fuel the fire.

It saddens me to see India’s name amongst the 20 most dangerous places to visit by the UK’s Telegraph. Needless to mention the millions we will lose because of tourists shying away. And we share space with Pakistan on that list. I’m sure the Pakistanis too feel the same!

Let’s find solutions rather than faults!

borivli_express:

No doubt, the likes of Modi and Thackeray deserve punishment for their deeds - instigation, hate speeches, inaction, etc. I would be the first to applaud their conviction.

What I don't agree with you on is classifying them is the same category as Dawood.

I would agree if you were to classify them in the same category as some imams and maulvis who give hate speeches in their mosques, in different parts of India/Pakistan. I do not know of any cleric who got arrested/convicted for giving a hate speech.

The key is that the State is often afraid of punishing such people - be they Hindu or muslim or any other religion - for fear of a public backlash or communal unrest. That is where your points about making the police force more independent, well-equipped and impartial make sense.

Not sure how much this would count yaar GF, but coming as it does from Yogi Sikand, whom most Indian Muslims love (to the heaven) calling him one of the saner Hindu voices speaking for them, it does deserve some attention. I'm pasting an excerpt here. This man is no military expert, but he does know what an Indian Muslim's accent would sound like.

"It is plainly evident from the conversation that the terrorist was a Pakistani, most likely a Punjabi. This is obvious from his accent and the sort of Urdu he speaks. One can easily make out that he had been carefully tutored by his mentors who masterminded the deadly terror assault on Mumbai to intersperse his hate-driven harangue with some Hindi words (shanti, parivar etc) and to use Urdu words in the typical Hindi way (jabardasti instead of zabardasti etc.) so as to give the misleading impression that he and the other terrorists with him were Indian Muslims, not Pakistanis. The terrorists claimed to belong to the 'Deccan' in India, but it is obvious that this was not at all the case. There can be no doubt that these Pakistani terrorists were trained to lie that they were Indian Muslims who were allegedly resorting to terror in revenge for the atrocities committed on Muslims in India.

"Why the Pakistan-based terror outfit behind the attacks would do this needs no explanation. The aim of the attacks was probably to destabilise India, fuel Hindu-Muslim violence, instigate Muslims to take to terror in response to attacks by Hindus and then drown India in flames. This, indeed, is precisely what several Pakistan-based self-styled Islamist groups have been consistently plotting to do for decades, although, mercifully, by and large, the Indian Muslims have refused to fall into their trap."

You can read the rest here:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/04mumterror-lies-of-the-lashkar.htm

#376 by Goldfinger

So what sort of naughty posts have you been posting to have gotten yourself banned?

I said something which if repeated here will get me banned again :-)

As to accents and other evidences...I wonder if there's a bollywood super star within every ordinary soul to be able to keep up fake/perfect accents even under life threatening situations...and how wonderful and easy it is for the great indi crime busting authorities to solve the mystery so easily because the perfectly trained criminals, most conveniently, left their satellite phones neatly placed next to the beheaded body of the ship captain that they had hijacked, after talking to their operator...??

1. If ordinary individuals could be trained to be as fit as the commandos they eventually took on, surely they could have been trained to speak in a different accent. And I'm sure it would be much easier than the former.

2. You should see some of the footage captured on CCTV. The terrorists were in fact braving the Railway Police (equipped with vintage WWII 303s) to take them on, not ducking and hiding like you'd expect them to.

3. As they were shooting people, they showed absolutely no emotion. Hundreds lay in front of them either dead or dying. If that didn't move them, no life-threatening situation would.

4. The most important thing: they came well prepared to die. Why would they fear anything, least of all the ill-equipped and undertrained Indian cops?

Having said the above, it all depends on how you look at it. If you're skeptical, you could find loopholes in even the most watertight case. But I'm sure more skeletons will tumble out; until then we can only speculate.

Re: # 374 So what sort of naughty posts have you been posting to have gotten yourself banned? you say:

"Yaar how easy is it to fake accents? I would think as easy of getting a confession out of a tortured terrorist. If you discount confessions made under duress, equally you should discount the terrorist's accent which can easily be faked."

As to accents and other evidences...I wonder if there's a bollywood super star within every ordinary soul to be able to keep up fake/perfect accents even under life threatening situations...and how wonderful and easy it is for the great indi crime busting authorities to solve the mystery so easily because the perfectly trained criminals, most conveniently, left their satellite phones neatly placed next to the beheaded body of the ship captain that they had hijacked, after talking to their operator...??

...I would think as easy as getting a confession out of a tortured terrorist....

#371 by Goldfinger

Yaar GF, I've been banned so am using this ID.

...by which I mean that there are no angels anywhere...no blacks and whites but lots of shades grey...of course two wrongs do not make a right, I reckon, and after all for how long can the two neighbors carry on such mayhem against each other? Everyone must remember that there can be no winners in a nuclear war...so all those who have any brains must try as much as possible to diffuse tensions...

I think for the first time we agree on something.

...so my gut feeling is that the Pakis didn't do it. Even the criminals (from what little one could make from the pictures) didn't look like any one from Pakistan...more nepalese/burmese/malay sort of looks...and they say even the language they spoke was Indic...so whats the overwhelming evidence?

Yaar how easy is it to fake accents? I would think as easy of getting a confession out of a tortured terrorist. If you discount confessions made under duress, equally you should discount the terrorist's accent which can easily be faked. Coming to the evidence (overwhelming actually) is that both American and Indian intelligence agencies had prior warnings that Mumbai could be attacked by sea (that the security apparatus did not act upon it does not in any way lessen its significance). Add to that, evidence gathered by the RAW includes a call made by the terrorists to an LeT operative in Lahore's Lashkar office using the satellite phone recovered from the trawler MV Kuber which was used by the terrorists to travel from Porbandar in Gujarat to somewhere off Mumbai and calls which were being made to the Lashkar operative even as the siege was going on. And please note that the calls were retrieved with the help of western intelligence agencies (which one, I don't know) because apparently the RAW didn't have that capability.

Re: # 372 MaheshG...now instead of being able to listen to someone else's pov you are coming up with ridiculous self made categories in trying to coerce people into coming up with views exactly identical to yours...just to perpatrate further this skewed indi bigotry and trying to put words into people's mouths...so what if an israeli writes in NY Times that he thinks the murderers were Pakistanis...does that make it conclusive evidence? Are lesser mortals not allowed as to how that conclusion was arrived at? I meanwhile read this:

www.antiwar.com
The Meaning of Mumbai
South Asia, the new arena
by Justin Raimondo

The Mumbai massacre comes at a time when the U.S. is about to switch battlefields in its avowedly "generational" war on terrorism, from the Middle East to South Asia. As we move our forces eastward into Afghanistan and, inevitably, Pakistan, the events in Mumbai light up the geopolitical landscape like lightning at midnight, prefiguring a new and even bigger quagmire than the one we're supposedly leaving behind in Iraq. Forget the differences between Sunnis and Shi'ites. That's so yesterday. What we're dealing with now, in the Pakistani-Indian rivalry, is a true war of civilizations, pitting Muslims against Hindus.

India's 9/11: that's what they're calling it, and the pattern fits in certain ways, particularly when it comes to forewarnings. In the aftermath of the biggest terrorist attack in U.S. history, it came out that the U.S. government had received intelligence that might have led it to be more vigilant or take certain preventive measures. In the case of Mumbai, however, the warnings were quite specific: the Indians were apparently informed that an attack from water-based terrorists on Mumbai hotels – including the Taj Hotel, where much of the action took place – was imminent. The most telling detail is no doubt the fact that the Indian police simply ran for cover, although what this tells us is hard to believe. Can it really be true that so specific a warning could have been ignored?

The analogy to 9/11 hopefully does not include a reenactment of our own response to the biggest terrorist attack in our history – the launching of a war without end, one that has drawn us into the wilds of Waziristan and, now, the unfathomable depths of the Muslim-Hindu divide.

More parallels with 9/11 – if you'll remember the immediate reaction of the War Party was to link the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Today, the reflexive response of the same avowed "experts" is to point the finger at Pakistan. One would imagine the debunking of the Saddam-Osama connection would give them some pause, but no. A rationale for war is being constructed with stunning swiftness.

According to the Indian account, the terrorists left behind a satellite phone on the boat they hijacked. Five individuals have been identified as having placed calls, at least three of them associated with Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Muslim fundamentalist group that seeks to "liberate" Kashmir from Indian rule. However, the Indians have a much longer list of suspects, 20 in all. The Wall Street Journal reports:

"India also has told Pakistan that the attacks were approved by Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, the head of Jamaat ud Dawa, the parent organization of Lashkar-e-Taiba. Mr. Saeed denied the allegation that his group was involved. 'India has always accused me without any evidence,' Mr. Saeed said in an interview with GEO News, a private Pakistan television channel."

In assigning responsibility for the Mumbai horror, we enter a world of murky ambivalence. Lashkar-e-Taiba is said to be affiliated, in some vague way, with "rogue" elements of Pakistani intelligence, which is, in turn, connected to the Taliban, the protector and ally of al-Qaeda. The War Party has its terrorist genealogy down to an exact science, but its precision comes into serious doubt when we look a little closer at this alleged "parent organization" of Lashkar-e-Taiba – which apparently wasn't a terrorist organization when they were working alongside American soldiers and relief workers in aiding victims of the devastating 2005 Pakistan-India earthquake.

The neat little narratives pumped out by war propagandists to rationalize acts of mass murder are an important part of any campaign to spark a conflict, so they have to be minimally convincing, or at least credible. Yet the story coming out of the Indian government is frankly incredible. The terrorists left a satellite phone conveniently placed next to the body of their ship's captain, whose throat they had slit, with the numbers of their handlers stored in memory. Very convenient. Even less convincing, however, is the assertion that even after Ajmal Kasab, the lone survivor of the terror squad, had been captured, he continued to get messages from his handlers. That little embellishment, I believe, gives the show away. Add to this the oddly unprepared – indeed, criminally negligent – role of the Indian security apparatus, and the whole thing reeks to high heaven. "Fishy" is putting it mildly.

The effect of the Mumbai massacre on Indian politics is another likely analogy to 9/11, which gave the neocons power and catapulted the worst warmongers to the very top of the national security bureaucracy. In the case of India, where voters will soon go to the polls, we are apt to see an electoral victory for the most militantly nationalistic and chauvinistic political movement in the country, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

The BJP is the political expression of the Hindutva movement, a fundamentalist version of traditional Hinduism that traces the genealogy of the Indian "race" back to the old Aryan incursion from the north. According to the ideologues of Hindutva, their race originated at the North Pole and was originally – in its "pure" form – a tribe of blue-eyed, blonde Aryans. Accordingly, the leader of their central organization, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), must be a blue-eyed, blonde-haired Saraswat Brahmin. The movement's goal, like the goals of all fascist movements everywhere, is to recapture the lost glory of a semi-mythical past, in this case the restoration of the ancient Hindu empire.

The Indian government's great problem has been the country's lack of cohesion. The failure of the Congress Party to unite the nation around a secularist-federalist model and the persistence of localist separatism paved the way for the BJP to unify the country on a different basis: extreme nationalism fueled by religious fanaticism, i.e., Hindu fundamentalism.

The BJP rose to prominence on the strength of street riots initiated by party-led gangs, which led to the destruction of a local mosque. The BJP municipal government tore down the ruined building and built a Hindu temple on the site, thought to have been the birthplace of the Hindu god Ram. Those civil disturbances killed 1,200, mostly Muslims, a pattern of communal violence that is sure to reassert itself in the aftermath of Mumbai. The BJP will also reassert itself, I'm afraid: after being driven from office four years ago, the Hindutva crackpots will more than likely goose-step back into power, perhaps this time with a decisive majority. In the last government they participated in, the defense minister, George Fernandes, openly bragged India would "win" a nuclear exchange with Pakistan, declaring:

"We could take a strike, survive, and then hit back. Pakistan would be finished. I do not really fear that the nuclear issue would figure in a conflict."

The government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is scrambling to explain its passivity in the face of what seems like an attack from outside forces. Singh is a mild and introspective technocrat, whose forte has been untangling the smothering web of his country's mammoth bureaucracy and revving up the country's economic engine. In the face of this crisis, however, he faces increasing pressure from India's growing right-wing nationalist movement. The smoke had barely cleared in Mumbai before BJP politicians were on the scene.

The pressure to cement an Indo-American alliance has been growing for quite some time and is slated to accelerate. India's special relationship with Israel, for one thing, is second only to our own. For another, President-elect Obama's promise to escalate the war in Afghanistan and even spread it into Pakistan is congruent with the plans of India's War Party, which is waiting in the wings to take the reins and confront Islamabad.

The argument that we must end the war in Iraq so that we can concentrate on the "real" enemy, the amorphous and exaggerated al-Qaeda, which is supposedly hiding in the wilds of Pakistan's tribal areas, is leading to an even wider, more open-ended conflict, one so combustible that it could spark a nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India.

As bad as George W. Bush was, he never messed up that badly. One can almost hear the collective sigh of relief now that we are approaching the day when an easily-manipulated ignoramus is no longer in charge of American foreign policy. What may be even more dangerous, however, is a very smart president who thinks he and his advisers know more than they actually do.

The strategic shift in the balance of U.S. military forces in the region, away from Iraq and eastward to Afghanistan and Pakistan, seems almost to have been conceived in order to confirm the complaints of the anti-American forces in the region that the U.S. and its allies have launched a crusade to eliminate Islam from the map. From this perspective the pattern is clear enough: having exhausted their efforts in Iraq, now the West strikes from a different direction, in alliance with India. At the geographic center of it all, you'll note, sits Iran, which can look forward to being surrounded on both sides.
~ Justin Raimondo

What more is needed to convince Pakistanis? There are only three kinds of Pakistanis now.

1. Agree this is true and want to stop it unconditionally.
2. Agree this is true and are cheering it.
3. Don't believe that this is true but ironically will still keep providing "moral" support to "freedom fighters" who are incidentally absolved of all blame.

I would like to see how many of the Pakistani chowk interactors fall in category 1. I extend my hand of friendship to them and hope that their tribe grows in Pakistan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/asia/04india.html?_r=1& hp



Excerpts:

"WASHINGTON — A former Defense Department official said Wednesday that American intelligence agencies had determined that former officers from Pakistan’s Army and its powerful Inter-Services Intelligence agency helped train the Mumbai attackers. "

"Both American and Indian authorities have concluded that there was little doubt that the Mumbai attacks were directed by militants inside Pakistan, and Indian officials have said they have identified three or four masterminds of the attack, including a leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Yusuf Muzzamil. "

Re: # 317 harish...that about the poor performance of the Indian commandos was in response to a jingoistic chest thumping individual from your neck of the woods, so to speak, and then you joined in too...and just now I was about to say something on your mention of the shoot down of the Indian aircraft in Kargil but decided not to since I came upon your response to my little snippet just when I thought everyone had ignored it as irrelevant...yes I agree some day some one has to do some write up on the shenanigans of RAW in trying to destabilise Pakistan, causing bomb blasts, murders and mayhem there...by which I mean that there are no angels anywhere...no blacks and whites but lots of shades grey...of course two wrongs do not make a right, I reckon, and after all for how long can the two neighbors carry on such mayhem against each other? Everyone must remember that there can be no winners in a nuclear war...so all those who have any brains must try as much as possible to diffuse tensions...

As to your sudden jumping to conclusions that the tragedy in Mumbai was perpetrated by Pakis...you say overwhelming evidence points to it (and though I haven't seen latest news)...may I ask you as to what is that over whelming evidence? They say that they nabbed one of the murderers and that he blurted out all the secrets to every one. Even if that were so, lacking professional interrogation techniques, I'm sure Indi (and Paki) torturers can make a man say anything, and that confessions under torture are not permissable in a proper court of law...so my gut feeling is that the Pakis didn't do it. Even the criminals (from what little one could make from the pictures) didn't look like any one from Pakistan...more nepalese/burmese/malay sort of looks...and they say even the language they spoke was Indic...so whats the overwhelming evidence?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 311
bori beduin...
whatever india has, that is sufficient to screw your ( paki) military....
the kashmir freedeom fighters/jihadis sprouted after pakis lost all 3 conventional wars...even the kargil was unofficial one and NS had to fly to Washington when Indians were whipping jihadi a**.... i don't think there will be any official war initiated by pakiland further more...it will be only islamic war/jihad (killing civilians, fighiting from civilian installations...)from pakiland side....

Re: # 322
VRV...
Indo-Pak war history never favoured Pakiland...you know that very well...indian defence power is much more than that of pakiland and if the procurements go fine, it will be 4/5:1 in both air force, navy and army level after 2010...

The Indo-Pak problem can be solved by bombing Pakistan. But , that is not feasible due it's geographical location. If Pakiland would have been in it's proper place- closer to Saudi Arabia, at least some 1000 miles away from Indian border, India would have taken that action....
Now, India can do nothing but praying for Pakiland, hoping that, it turns into a civilised country again, like that was untill 1500 years back....


if your whole nation enjoys the pleasure of playing nuicense creator, you definitely can expect ISAF hellfire missiles killing your people more often....the problem is when you will land up in situation like Sudan you don't know...completely cut-off from civilised world and playing in the hand of Chinks....

"there are others for who the indian state is important and they will fight for it.

you gotta follow your dharma and face the consequences."

If the Indian state means hindu thuggishness and defense of it than muslims have a right to defend themselves, actually any minority will.

Re: # 361
beduine32,
bal thackrey and modi just returned back beduin follower barbarians little bit of what they deserve. thackery's sin is, he had chased your brother, dawood ibrahim to his right place!!!

be, there is no genocide. but, if you think that indian state is so evil and useless for "your community" that it needs to be de-stabalized, (killing of modi and thakre will do it probably), go for it, there is plenty of help available in the neighborhood. that would be a natural action for youo.

there are others for who the indian state is important and they will fight for it.

you gotta follow your dharma and face the consequences.

be #363: fine. now can we come back to mumbai?

tahmed I will be honest with you i dont care wether these animals have or have not been a menace to pakistan, it is enough for me that they have been violent and created insecurity among muslims in India. tomorow if they were to come to power and change India like they have changed gujarat or start a war with pakistan for some domestic reason you may regret it as well

#361 is to borivili_express.

be: you ignored my post about why we need to stick to the crime being discussed on this board - mumbai. while what you say about thakeray and modi is right, it is not relevant. in fact, thakeray and modi are no menace to pakistan (criminals though they are) - the menace is these animals who murdered innocent people in mumbai. thousands of pakistanis (soldiers and civilians) have been murdered by these same animals.

Re Jang: "#353 tahmed, they have no cognizable crime. you can argue immorality, bad governance for modi but crime? thakre is not even in power so cant even argue bad governance. bad governance is only punishable in elections. so modi goes free. you can only take him out by criminal means with some serious consequences. simple facts."

There is no cognizable crime against thakeray when his thugs were butchering in 92/92 or against Modi when he prevented police from responding or transferred IAs officers or gave orders to his cardres or gave municipalty lists to them? then theris no cognizable offence against Hitler also. in any case thakeray, modi and RSS gurus golwalkar etc have expressed open admiration of Hitler in their interviews. And Germany was not homogenous before the Holocaust, Jews were a sizeable minority. If you dont want to interact thats upto you but I thought it was important to put across the point of view of most muslims that I have spoken to.

'Rot' at heart of Indian intelligence

Read full story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7760460.stm

Re: # 357 Tahmed

I did not expect anything mature from you. You proved my point. Thanks

pepe le pew: is see you have reared your head on chowk. like i told you last time, dont waste your precious time trying to chat with me. you can go misrepresent what i said, write bs about pakistan, with your fellow indians. now run along like a good little hindu boy hiding behind a gora mask...

Re: # 349 Tahmed

"Zardari seems to realize. "

Zardari may be the most irrelevant of the power troika in Pakistan (militants and ISI/military being the other two). The big question is: can the ISI/military be tamed? In the past they have squandered half their country while remaining unremittingly hostile to India. I don't see any evidence that they have become any smarter in the ensuing period.

jang: aiding and abetting the murders of 3000 people is "bad governance"?? this is the same mindset as that of hamid gul and other apologists for islamist terrorists in pakistan!

#353 tahmed, they have no cognizable crime. you can argue immorality, bad governance for modi but crime? thakre is not even in power so cant even argue bad governance. bad governance is only punishable in elections. so modi goes free. you can only take him out by criminal means with some serious consequences. simple facts.

#350 jang: how about bringing these "political leaders" of india to justice? (not "indian justice" that let modi off the hook, but real justice).

DashDot: dont give me this "hindus" and "jews" business though - there were muslims killed too, no doubt, in mumbai. and my prayers are for the children of everyone who was killed, regardless of religion.

I think that time is FAST running out on Pakistan. The fact that Condi Rice is in India (good cop) and Adm. Mullen is in Pakistan (bad cop) simultaneously, is sending an unmistakable message. Adm. Mullen's chief Pakistani interlocutor will be his counterpart - Gen. Kayani, not Zardari. This should tell us something what the US (and India) believe is the power center in Pak.

The two visits by Rice/Mullen are also something entirely new - in the past, the US approach was even-handed, with an emissary making two stops. With this new approach, a diplomatic message is being delivered to India, and a military one to Pakistan behind the scenes.

I have no doubt that if the Pakistanis do not come clean on this event, the future is indeed very grave for their country. You cannot antagonize two elephants simultaneously and somehow escape being trampled when they dance over you.

oye taking out of hitler or milesovic is fine only after the nazis and serb are crushed or defeated and germany was a homogeneous society..dont mix random things and throw words like genocide lightly, otherwise i will stop interacting with you and you will left with tahmed. IMO in current situation, killing these political leaders will cause irreparable damage to multi-cultural india. which offcourse is desired by many, but its a simple fact. getting dawood (and malegaon accused) to trial is otoh a good way forward.

#345 DD: I certainly hope the Zardari government is able to put an end to the mischief of LeT & co once and for all. If these scum are a menace to India, they are a far greater menace to Pakistan - as Zardari seems to realize.

I on the other hand have no problem with them being taken out just as i would have with any other criminal or say hitler etc who was also democratically elected. people's vote is not the ultimate sanctifier for genocide.

as a clarification, i am most certainly NOT advocating killing of any political leaders like modi or thakre..they are legitimate voices of the people they are supported by. they ought to be tried in courts of law and public opinion (which has been done and they have prevailed). you may not like it, but they express a real opinion. their killing will most certainly lead to large scale riots. i think pakis should try to help indians feel secure so that they dont have to resort to modi and thakre, and they can then be ok with other goons like laloo, CPM and congressis who do no target muslims specifically.

I dont think their is a connection between al qaida's strategy and whats happening in south asia. but as regards why the al qaida has two diff messages for its recruitment base and for the west could lie in this article which looks at motivations for recruitment from stuka's ilog http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/59084/30296

Re: # 344 that they will be...Tahmed32 - they are jews and Indians (hindus) afterall (its almost 90% cerain).

the other 10% is the scary thing.

But why wait for the future...why not do something now...get rid of the LeT or is that that the State of Pakistan does not have the courage to do it?

be: one day i hope that 2 year old boy whose young parents were murdered at Nariman House who was crying out his mother and fathers names at their funeral, the children of the brave policeman Karkare, and indeed the children of every single person murdered by these animals in mumbai grow up to be...great scientists, doctors, lawyers, political leaders.

That will be the best revenge against the LeT and their supporters (e.g. the retired army officer who trained these animals for mumbai).

#341 "I have no clue why they dont do the most obvious,"
after 3 days of constant complaining, you are finally getting somewhere. I read about a study some guy did about the difference between Al-Qaeda's transmissions to west courtesy of Adam Gadahn and Al-Qaeda's Arabic propaganda. The former focused on the kind of stuff that you have been droning about for the last few days. The latter was largely free of this and focused on technical interpretations of quran, hadith, etc. Now why do you think that is?

salim

Yep, zardari did a terrific "performance" on CNN, much better than any prior dance routines performed by various pakiland "presidents" and "prime ministers" till date...

But he was a little too much full of "making peace with india" and "taking out terrorists" rhetoric, that will not go down very well with real pakis... Remember, his wife made pretty much did a similar "performance" on CNN before she headed out to pakiland, only to be shot and killed in broad day light...

zaradri is toast...

Jang you have hit the nail on the head, that is the greatest mystery to me, it has trobled me for years why they target poor people, infact this is the first time they have even targetted the rich upper castes, thats why I think these jihadis are not genuine they are working either to achieve some agenda for the ISI or for the lashkars or maybe for the BJP, I have no clue why they dont do the most obvious, if 10 of them could do such mayhem they could take on thakarey and modi despite their security

jang #337 good question. answer: because terrorists (hindu or muslim) are cowardly scum who prey on helpless people.

Pakistan may well be on the way to becoming a Jihadi state but India is not far behind on becoming a saffron one. The partition that began 60 years ago is now nearly complete. Even the congress was surprised when it won the last election and it appears it might be its last. if we want just and liberal societies, civil society will have to fight hard in both countries, at present it appears to be a loosing battle.

be #336 When shivsena etc. commit their next crime, you can write lengthy posts about them. But right now, you are merely detracting from the crimes committed by LeT & co.

So let me ask you: Do you agree that Zardari should follow-up on his good words and actually take the scum who did mumbai out??

borivli, any idea why jihadis dont target modi or thakre? modi is pretty easy .. thakre is not that hard either. are they afraid of the backlash if chota-sardar or hridaysamrat are jihadofied? afik, thakre lives in a modest house 200 yards from east-bandra, a huge mussalman ghetto. modi mixes often with people with pretty low level security.

See these members of the sangh (BJP/Bajrang/VHP) and shiv sena are as ideological and fascist as the jihadis they have worked patiently for over 50 years gneration after generation to achieve their goal. and their guru said that only 2 to 3% of the population has to be converted to their org and they can take over society

I will gve you example one day after godhra and a day before riots started gujarati newspapers published stories of hindu women being kidnapped from godhra and their dead bodies with breasts cut being found naked on railway tracks near godhra, later investigation showed nothing of this sort happened. Similarly that nanavati report on godhra was based on the testimony of a sole petrol pump attendant who said he soled petrol to muslims, later tehelka did a sting where that guy admitted he was bribed and pressurised by the police to give this testimony infront of the commision. the commision itself was biased. conveniently the day tehelka made this public a bomb was set of in the evening in a delhi suburb and the media blanked out this story, who did this lone blast wasnt clear because no one claimed responsibility.

see the efforts of the hindu right over the past 50 years has paid off . the RSS schools, labor orgs, RSS shakhas, colleges and student orgs, teachers and bajrang dal/vhp type of orgs means their members and graduates have infiltrated every organisation since the late seventies including media, police, judiciary and now have even been elected to power this would have been unthinkable 30 or 35 years ago and the trend is only increasing.

And despite very strong colonial hate speech laws in India none of the hindu leaders thakarey, Modi, Advani etc has ever been tried or booked by the govt, by the courts either before or after the riots, for that there is ample evidence in papers, infact the regional language papers themselves are the most communal and publish poison against the muslims as well as spread rumours which have been very effective in instigating riots in Gujarat, Bombay, Babri riots etc. This speaks something about the role of regional media courts and govt and the entrenched antimuslim prejudice.

DM #328 I am glad you find such world-reknowned think tanks and as Chowk Unplugged as the source of your information.

Re kcs
"Thackeray and Modi are no angels. Thackeray and his ilk, in my view, are some of the great morons of modern India, and it is testimony to the state of our nation/society that such people even get to become leaders. Modi is guilty of inaction during the Gujarat riots (and he has also been accused of instigation and tacit complicity). There are Hindus who support them because they feel that such people are required to counter the threat of extremist Islam .....

BTW, in his current term as Gujarat CM, Narendra Modi has been seen to be doing a very good job as an administrator. This is no condoning of his past sins, but just FYI."


See this is whre as a muslim my perception defers from yours I se Thakaray and Modi as criminals for murdering and raping, men women and children I dont see them as morons etc. and I dont care if they were good administrators just as I wouldnt for milosovic or Hitler, by the way they didnt rape or murder anybody with their own two hands either except for giving orders. and dawood is a criminal but i see their crimes preceding and exceeding his both because of the role they had in govt or because of the scale or both.

MaheshG #321 "Now they claim that they never supported LeT in the first place and Tahmed claims that the Pakistani civil society has shown its mettle. "

How does my pointing to (not mere "claim") the fact that the Pakistani civil society has shown its mettle (by getting rid of a dictator) relate to "they never supported LeT in the first place"? If you wish to quote me, then cut and paste what I wrote. Dont misrepresent what I said - and then have the nerve to accuse Pakistanis of "duplicity" in the same breath.

hamidm #303 You should have known that those two lancers standing behind Zardari were the Royal Coat of Arms of the Bhutto Dynasty. For the very smart man that he obviously is, it is surprising he did not tell whoever set his elaborate stage to get those two jokers off-camera.

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HP#315:

The Hindu correspondant did not say anything that has not been noticed by many foreign observers or even some Pakistanis, here is what one Pakistani noted on UP:
"Not so Stukay, Army can be subservient to the civilians and can do this good deed. You have no idea how much support in Pakistan there is of these bastards (Al-Qaeda and Taliban). During my last trip to Lahore a few months ago, I was at a top brass dinner and every maderchood was saying how important it was for Pakistan to have these rogue elements. There will be no Taliban or al-Qaeda had it not had support of Pakistan at all levels. Indians are stupid to think that either the GOP or the Pak Army will take care of this problem. If anyone is to take care of it, it has to be the Americans, or the Indians. "

A reading of any Urdu newspaper would corroborate this observation.

Re: # 312 Dost

Dost, agreed. The Pakistani jihadi virus is a global problem, not just India's. It may have been initially directed at Indian troops in Kashmir, but now its agenda is global. Increasingly, India's position is being accepted in world capitals.

Just like the US did not go it alone in Afghanistan, India cannot defang the jihadi virus alone. The tide of time is in India's favor and against the Pakistani elites who still have a hard time comprehending all that's going on. This attack was further proof that the jihadis recognize that they have to escalate and do something dramatic to change the dynamic. If the Pakistani state does not stand up, you can be assured that its demise is not far off. Already there is talk of putting FATA in some sort of UN trusteeship.

Dear Indians and Non-Pakistanis,
Following this discussion on this board, I'd only say that Indian response shouldn't be thought of in terms of a two-state (Pak vs. India) model.
Pakistan, imo, is not a state. It is a security apparatus run by Pakistan Army with varying level of support from Pakistanis.
Pakistan Army and the ideology (TNT) it represents and the society engineered by Pak. Army has, due to technology coupled with Islamism, become
even more severe threat to the stability of Afghan-Indian region than what it'd come to represent to Bengalis and Minorities in the past.
Since, Pakistan is not a stable state, therefore, thinking in a cold-war paradigm is wrong, there could not be a sequential if-then-not-else response
to Islamic brand of nihilism mastered by Pak. Army. In a short-term, the response could be thought of as internationalizing the problem of Pakistani Terrorism.
In the long term, I agree with Kaalchakra, Pakistani state's disintegration in its constituent parts is, imo, the only way to get rid of the Security Apparatus.
Pak. Army is like the operating system on a computer that has TNT as its boot-up sequence. Zardari, Sharif et al. are unfortunately nobodies.

#287 Posted by om_prakash on December 2, 2008 4:46:42 pm
Borivilli that was an excellent point about other Dawoods rising up when the underlying cause is not addressed. But what is the underlying cause that gives rise to the mafia I wonder. There has to be justice both for Dawood and for Thakre. But all I hear you say is if there isn't justice for one there shouldn't be for the other either. It's a twisted sort of corollary.
BTW is Dawood a spokesman/representative of Indian muslims or even marathi muslims"

One Great Revolutionary civli rights victim leader MLK said

INJUSTICE anywhere is threat justice everywhere

Pakistan can't silence

& lets now be naive that ISI and Agencies in Pakistan silence the family of the captured terrorist or relocate them or could even lock them up.

So state and non-state actors can act in tandem to deflect criticism.

We should not forget that 5th July 2005 bombers were indoctrinated, trained in Pakistan by the (ex)armymen & sent by the groups there but were portrayed as British-born and bred (no doubt) by Mush govt.

Brit they were on paper but their motivation was to kill Brits as 'they' occupied 'our' (Muslim) lands was the msg of the fidayeens.

Proof my foot.

India was giving proof to both Pakistan and the US since PV Narasimha Rao's time abt the terror training camps in Pakistan. Pak rejected the proofs and US looked away. Now US interests are partly tied with India's, therefore they are speaking in fav of India now.

India has not sought help nor expertise from US but Robert Gates made an unusual admission that they had their own intelligence on Mumbai. They too had info on Kabul attack on Indian embassy, which Pakistan refused to admit despite US's persistence.

Now a theoretical scenario can be made that Pakistan can send a hundred fidayeean to Indian cities and cripple the state so badly and can let their army attack India effortlessly. Sounds simplistic but a scary scenario that is possible as we have many fifth columnists in India.

Pakistanis ask proof from non-Indian sources and when provided they want the same sources to deal with the problem.

Looks like they still want to do nothing while claiming that they are doing everything in power to disown terrorism.

Before LeT was declared a terrorist group by the US Pakistanis were claiming that they only give moral support to LeT and it was not a terrorist group.

Now the tune has changed. Now they claim that they never supported LeT in the first place and Tahmed claims that the Pakistani civil society has shown its mettle. The only thing it has shown is its duplicity.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mumbai3-2008dec03,0,5248759. story

Pakistan faces further pressure with Rice's arrival in the region today after she cut short a Europe trip to focus on growing tension between the South Asian neighbors and rivals. Also arriving today is Navy Adm. Michael G. Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Mullen was to visit both Pakistan and India, though details of his schedule were not released for security reasons.

Lashkar was blamed for the attack in public remarks Tuesday by U.S. Director of National Intelligence J. Michael McConnell. McConnell did not name the organization, but said the attackers were from the same group responsible for Mumbai train bombings in 2006 that killed more than 200. Indian authorities have blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba for those attacks.

"This same group that we believe is responsible for Mumbai had a similar attack in 2006 on a train that killed a similar number of people," McConnell said in an address at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. "If you examine the groups that we think are responsible, the philosophical underpinnings are very similar to what Al Qaeda puts out in their view of how the world should be. "


Tahmed sahib, do you need more proof?

#288 Borivli_express

"I never said dawood should not be assasinated, all I said is muslims find it hypocritical that hindus want him dead because his victims are mostly hindu and not thakeray whose victims are all muslim and a)whose act preceded dawoods and b)killed and buchered more people"

Hindus want Dawood dead because his victims were mostly Hindu?

I'd rather that this read thus: Indians want Dawood tried/brought to justice because he is a criminal. And a big one at that. The fact that he is being brazenly sheltered by another country also makes it an issue of diplomacy and international crime.

Ask any Hindu why he wants Dawood brought to justice and he/she will not say "because he killed so many Hindus". It's just your flawed perception.

Thackeray and Modi are no angels. Thackeray and his ilk, in my view, are some of the great morons of modern India, and it is testimony to the state of our nation/society that such people even get to become leaders. Modi is guilty of inaction during the Gujarat riots (and he has also been accused of instigation and tacit complicity). There are Hindus who support them because they feel that such people are required to counter the threat of extremist Islam (read http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2002/12/07/stories/2002120702460500.ht m). There is a huge number of Hindus that don't support them (just as there is a considerable number of Muslims with extremist views, and a large number of moderate Muslims too). Modi has been villainised by several sections of the Indian media.

But there is a difference between them and Dawood. Modi and Thackeray have been tried in court. They may have not been convicted (whatever the reasons may be), but they haven't exactly escaped the law and public fury (Thackeray today is a spent force politically). Inaction and instigation are crimes more difficult to establish than the direct association that Dawood has had.

BTW, in his current term as Gujarat CM, Narendra Modi has been seen to be doing a very good job as an administrator. This is no condoning of his past sins, but just FYI.

I completely share your feelings on the inefficacy and corruption of India's critical systems - the police, judiciary and government. The police, which is the common man's direct interface to the law, can act as the true guardians of law only when they are modernised and freed from the shackles of political interference.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/asia/03mumbai.html?hp

U.S. and India See Link to Militants in Pakistan

If you Pakistanis really want peace please prove it with deeds rather than words.

Thanks. Looking forward to some meaningful responses from the other side.

#169 by Goldfinger

And is any one ever going to mention anything of the muck that those nuggets at RAW been perpetrating in Pakistan...whether they have a hand in any nefarious activities there, murders of innocents, destruction of Marriot Islamabad, bombings and other stuff like that...they are after all pure angels...can do no evil...still one wonders

Yaar GF, no one is saying the RAW is innocent (nor should it be, given the menace the ISI has become). So if you have proof, why don't you start a thread on Unplugged or write an FP article and we can discuss it? I have a lot to say about the Marriott and other stuff going on in Pakistan.

So please! This discussion is about the Mumbai attacks and we're discussing who the perpetrators could be. Overwhelming evidence points towards Pakis. So far, all you've done is mock the Indian commandos and the poor emergency response. Not very encouraging.

#315 by HP

HP Sahib,

Why are you bent upon proving Pakistan's "innocence"? The story you posted is of another village by the same name but somewhere else in Punjab. The gunman comes from a village called Faridkot in Deepalpur tehsil in Okara district. I will see if I can dig out more info on this.

Looks like even ordinary Pakis are well-versed in the art of denial. Look at how the old man denies the man's existence (Shown a picture of the alleged militant, Daha said: "That's a smart-looking boy. We don't have that sort around here.") because he looks smart. LOL!

#310 Posted by dost_mittar
“And some Pakistanis would like us to believe that ordinary Pakistanis do not like jihadis because they do not vote for Islamist parties.
Any Indian foolish enough to buy that�

Yes, Indians are fools to believe that story by the Hindu that warpster posted. Here is a better and authentic story by someone who actually went there instead of the Hindu correspondent who would be lost outside of Chennai.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/02/stories/2008120259961000.htm
Praveen Swami made up the story in Hindu. See the real story here.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/56808.html

You will see a picture of the village too and he spoke fluent English...What have Indian been drinking?

FARIDKOT, Pakistan — For the past three days Pakistani intelligence agents and police have been combing this sleepy village in search of clues to the identity of the lone gunman captured in the Mumbai terror attacks, residents said on Monday.

Indian officials and news media officials identified him variously as Ajmal Amir Kamal, Azam Amir Kasav, or Azam Ameer Qasab, and Indian news media quoted police as saying that the alleged killer's home village was in Faridkot, near the city of Multan in the southern part of Pakistan's Punjab province.

Local residents, however, are bewildered and alarmed. They said there was no one of that surname in this village, and no missing resident who fit the pictures and description shown in the Indian news media.

"All the agencies have been here and the (police) special branch," said village elder Mehboob Khan Daha, referring to Pakistan's plainclothes counterterror police. "We have become very worried. What's this all about?" Agents from Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) also appeared to be present on Monday, questioning locals.

Shown a picture of the alleged militant, Daha said: "That's a smart-looking boy. We don't have that sort around here."

bori#311:

"in kargil pakis had shot down both indian fighters within seconds of them crossing paki airspace and he thinks india can do an afghanistan on pakistan because the USA did so?:

Did you read my whole statement? I had said,"But then, of course, India is no US and Pakistan no Afghanistan."

#311 by borivili_express

in kargil pakis had shot down both indian fighters within seconds of them crossing paki airspace and he thinks india can do an afghanistan on pakistan because the USA did so?

Yaar Borivili, here's the thing. India doesn't need to cross into Paki airspace to take out the terror camps. The missiles will do.

Secondly, there weren't two fighters. There was one MiG-21 and another was a helicopter (I forget the name). You don't need to do much to a MiG-21; it will crash anyway (there's a reason why it is nicknamed the Flying Coffin).

HP#165:

"It is clearly that Indian State is being controlled by completely inept lunatics. Within this year they have seen at least three major attacks on the civilian structures still they have no system to deal with the emergencies in some major cities. Any government which fails to provide these basic services to its people is clearly morally bankrupt and intellectually incapable of providing leadership. We see that in how they are dealing with a major crisis any government could face."

For once, I fully agree with you.

is this dost mittar some 15 year old kid? in kargil pakis had shot down both indian fighters within seconds of them crossing paki airspace and he thinks india can do an afghanistan on pakistan because the USA did so? the US has a 650 billion dollar defense budget with fighter bombers that cant be detected by most radar systems, precision munitions, radar jammers and the worlds largest airforce, drones and tomahawk cuise missiles which can be launched from air and sea plus satellites

"When he returned home for a two-month break after his indoctrination at the Lashkar base camp, he found a respectability within his community and family that had eluded him most of his life. Where Iman had earlier been seen as a burden, he was now self-sufficient — and bore the halo of religious piety."

And some Pakistanis would like us to believe that ordinary Pakistanis do not like jihadis because they do not vote for Islamist parties.
Any Indian foolish enough to buy that?

tahmed32:

"As for your question on what the Indian government should do, I think the answer is obvious - do what the US government has done so far.:

The US govt. bombed Afghanistan to stone age when it suspected, without any proof, that the attacks on WTC were inspired by someone in that country.

But then, of course, India is no US and Pakistan no Afghanistan.

hamidm after reading stuka's post from WSJ its possible these men might be indian muslims but even if they are there is no way they can get this amount of weapons and explosives without outside help

nkg, mohar & others:

We Indians on chowk are as pathetic as the Indian govt., showing impotent rage. The Indian govt. will continue to issue threats and the Pakistanis will continue to ask for "evidence" because they rightly believe:

Na khanjar utthay ga na talwar un se
Yeh baazoo meray aazmaaye huwai hain!

tahmed:

It doesn't matter what you think of my remarks. They are the reality. India is not in a position to strengthen the civilian govt. and have to go on the assumption that they have to deal with the de facto leaders in Pakistan, which is the military establishment. And it seems that the military establishment is more in tune with what the Pakistani elite want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cIG80dlUHA&feature=related

http://www.y outube.com/watch?v=WACjyXfBD_I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/wat ch?v=nvf2GP2XzVY

Re: # 154

Beena,

Yes, but a scenario where true democracy wins in Pakistan is extremely remote (whether such a scenario would help curb the situation is another debate altogether). It is, for all practical purposes, a purely theoretical outcome, hence to be discussed over tea.

To quote from my last post:

"The Army, even now, is the real power behind the throne, and it's just a matter of time before it actually, again, gets back physically on the throne. Real democracy in Pak is an extremely remote possibility.

And the Muslim League's and independent Pak's history give me no reason to believe otherwise."

This civilian government is just an interlude, an eyewash, if you will. The Army is there and it will come back as it has done since the past 60 years. Even today the ISI chief can flout Zardari's orders with impunity.

If you can convince me otherwise, using any historical data then, trust me, I'd me happy to be proved wrong. But just "hoping" is going to be quite useless.

Hamidm2 miaN, when the US and India and Israel attack Pakistan jointly, who will you support?!

Re: # 292

salim mian,

.... what did you think of the two presidential bodyguards with lances standing behind his highness ? ........ sitting in my living room in the us i found it a bit embarassing - rmeinded me of some of those african kings in their leopard kings surrounded by bare breasted women and warriors with painted faces ........ no?

...... can you tell the horrible hindoos to hold off their attack on pakistan until i get back from my vacation? ...... these indians on chowk seem to be on the war path - they are beginning to scare me

zang #301: dont ever make the mistake of saying anything good about pakistan!!

tahmed..this is a stanard routine pakis do..mushy was also once famous for his nice suits, collegial demeanor and was a darling of media..even in agra. heck, even jia ul haq was feted nicely in the white-house and khilaod biscut and a treated to a pat on his head.

#296 parthaab: as our Visionary Leader Zardari (formerly known as Mr. 10%, but hell, he is proving to be worth 200% to Pakistan in his response to mumbai!!) put it - terrorists are stateless individuals who want to get nations to fight one another. The way to defeat them is for nations to join hands and fight terrorists instead.

Your points on treating people with respect rather than trying to bully them into submission is an important part of the long-term solution.

Remember who said this : 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'? India has been fighting this low intensity war for many years now with Pakistan. Just think - why have we not been succesful so far?

One more strike in Pakistan, as encouraged by the rightists, will only INCREASE animosity - and is against the principles of a TRULY peaceful people.

America got away with Iraq, only because the terrorists cannot strike back due to the distance, UNLIKE in the case of India. So there can be NO a comparison, unlike what the America worshippers think.


India is bleeding again and what should India DO to bring REAL peace?



1. The politicians should engage the extremists and negotiate with them on ALL issues, INCLUDING a peaceful end to the Kashmir situation, which could not be wished away, ever since 1947, and remains a bleeding wound! We cannot afford to pass this on to our next generation.

2. Punish policemen and judges guilty of provoking counter violence by the general public in J&K. Invariably, violence around the world is intimately linked to the lack of genuine and free methods of REDRESSAL of grievances of the population. ( The live terrorist has said he did it for money! ) Similarly, the TRPS activist mediamen like Arnab Goswami, should be punished, and not merely reprimanded.

3. Make corruption, communal, casteist, and misandrous ( ? feminist ) politics a crime, punishable by hanging, similar to anti-nationalism.

4. Punish mothers, priests, and school teachers, guilty of brainwashing young school children, that RELIGION is 'peaceful', when facts show it is clearly not.

The question is, will we have the guts to go the easier way ( war, sitting on sofas, and hoping and wishing ), or the tougher way, as listed above.

Only time will tell.

Remember who said this : 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'? India has been fighting this low intensity war for many years now with Pakistan. Just think - why have we not been succesful so far?

One more strike in Pakistan, as encouraged by the rightists, will only INCREASE animosity - and is against the principles of a TRULY peaceful people.

America got away with Iraq, only because the terrorists cannot strike back due to the distance, UNLIKE in the case of India. So there can be NO a comparison, unlike what the America worshippers think.


India is bleeding again and what should India DO to bring REAL peace?



1. The politicians should engage the extremists and negotiate with them on ALL issues, INCLUDING a peaceful end to the Kashmir situation, which could not be wished away, ever since 1947, and remains a bleeding wound! We cannot afford to pass this on to our next generation.

2. Punish policemen and judges guilty of provoking counter violence by the general public in J&K. Invariably, violence around the world is intimately linked to the lack of genuine and free methods of REDRESSAL of grievances of the population. ( The live terrorist has said he did it for money! ) Similarly, the TRPS activist mediamen like Arnab Goswami, should be punished, and not merely reprimanded.

3. Make corruption, communal, casteist, and misandrous politics a crime, punishable by hanging, similar to anti-nationalism.

4. Punish mothers, priests, and school teachers, guilty of brainwashing young school children, that RELIGION is 'peaceful', when facts show it is clearly not.

The question is, will we have the guts to go the easier way ( war, sitting on sofas, and hoping and wishing ), or the tougher way, as listed above.

Only time will tell.

#292 pakiturk: good summary. zardari was very good in the interview. and this was part of his broader response to mumbai, which he has done a great job of pulling the country together in the response with the successful multi-party conference.

Bori, none of that is in dispute, and has to be addressed, but you will agree that the mumbai attack was basically a Pakistani attack on India.

The issue of Indian Muslims and the issue of Pakistani attack on india are different from each other (unless we accept Pakistanis as representatives of Indian Muslims and Indian Muslims as resident Pakistanis) and it is neither right nor wise to link the two or treat them interchangeably.

Both Hindus and Muslims in Mumbai have been killed by Pakistanis. Whether we are Hindus or Muslims, this is Pakistan's war on all of us - not by all of pakistan but surley by a signficant and powerful section of its populace. That's how it must be appraoched.

Again, treating Pakistan as the representative of Indian muslims or Indian Muslims as Pakistanis in residence is not good for anyone (except for Pakistanis). It's not even totally true. Let's keep the two separate.

Now that we have been, again, ruthlessly attacked by Pakistanis, the question for all Indians is - what do we do with different actors - the zardaris and the kayanis and the sarwars - in Pakistan?

Re: # 294 Kaal

"There is no way they are going to gain any control over Pakistan's military-militant group (against India, the two are the same)."

Then Pakistan is f@cked

Pew, my fear is that we may be both over-estimating and misreading asif zardaris and such - the so-called 'civilian government' of Pakistan.

There is no way they are going to gain any control over Pakistan's military-militant group (against India, the two are the same).

And they will never 'invite' India to help quell the militants. From what i have seen the civilian element in Pakistan is no less virulently anti-India than the military or the militant.

Hoping that by 'strengthening' the so-called civilian government of Pakistan, Indians would have found a friend and an ally seems extremely wishful thinking. But this is my hunch. Hopefully I am wrong, and after wasting another precious ten years, we will not be back to the same stage as we are in today, and were in 2001.

India's probs are much bigger than this 200 dead. India's police is extremely badly equiped and trained as was evident and the quality or raw material is no good either therefore under the strain of having to produce results from the public and politicians and with their anti muslim bias they just round up and lock up or torture thousands of muslim youths who are innocent while the real perpetrtors get away or they will kill them in false ecounters, creating more terrorists.

The judiciary and lawyers are deeply corrupt and the laws are colonial era ones which benefit them by dragging on cases, Ram Jethmalani tried to make small changes but all the lawyers went on a mass strike and because of electoral considerations he had to back off. The World Bank publishes a report called Doing Business one of its indicators is I think property rights or rule of law India i think ranks 80th out of 84 countries either because the average case takes two decades or bacuse of the corruption of the police/lawyers and judiciary. because of this the police is encouraged to go in with encounters either because of their inefficiency/lack of training they are not able to solve the case or get the evidence or if they do the courts will drag on so they just go in for a false encounter.

The police is so corrupt and communal it will not record even an FIR in case of communal riots in gujarat or bombay or even in cases of theft and violence unless you have some influence. any case district and upward to high court level can be won by bribing the lawyers and judges now some reports say say even supreme court judges are communal and take bribes.

You cannot hope to develop to first world economy with a third class law enforcement and judicial/law system it will lead to severe socio economic problems if you have a genuine anger or indignation first solve this.

Zardari on Larry King - some observations.

Overall performance - pretty fair - great improvement over Mushy.

Biggest mistake - Zardari should have said WWI and not WWII for the war started by a fanatic terrorist. He was talking about the Austrian Duke assassinated by the Serbian dude in Sarajevo in 1914.

Missed opportunity - Zardari should have stressed over and over (not just once) that he is one of the most obvious victims of these terrorist groups - after all his wonderful wife, BB, was cruelly killed by them. Also, Zardari should have countered that Pakistanis are now paying for the residue from the Soviet occupation and the ensuing "freedom" struggle in which Afghans, Pakis, Soodis, AND Americans cooperated with money, guns, and intrigue, including JIHAD. That unholy alliance created robotic fanatics and today you have the results of that policy, for which there is plenty of blame to go around.

Best performance - Zardari's response regarding what he will do if evidence is provided for the named individuals India is accusing of masterminding the attacks - Zardari said that Pakistan would try these people, and if found guilty, they would be sentenced IN PAKISTAN. So much for the Injun ultimatum to turn over the 20 odd people.

Pretty good overall, I would say - So glad that Mushy is gone. Also, Zardari had some very positive and optimistic things to say about his desire for good relations and cooperation with India.

Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Re: # 290
"That FATA fight has nothing to do with us."

Unless, one of the antagonists (militants) think that by pulling India into the fight by punching the Pakistani state (Zardari), they will get India to do what they could not do by themselves - overthrow of the Pakistani government. After every India-Pak war, there has been a fall of the Pakistani government. The militants think that the next war will produce a similar result in which they will occupy the political vacuum that will be created.

The ISI is looking for a pretext to move out of FATA and a war that they do not have the stomach to fight.

I see the Pakistan civil war growing in intensity. It is not too far fetched to think that the Pakistani government might turn to India to ask for help in finally quelling the militants. Without peace with India, it is a fight that they cannot win.

Pew_Research and Other Indians

I am still not quite sure what use Beena Sawars and Asif Zardaris of Pakistan are to India (or to the rest of mankind).

They have no control over Pakistani military or Pakistan's Islamic militants, so anything to do with India is out of their hands.

Is any of us hoping that either with our moral support or without it Beena Sarwars and Asif Zardaris will grow strong enough to overpower Pakistani military and Pakistan's Islamic militants? If not, why waste time with either?

That FATA fight has nothing to do with us. It is an internal fight within Pakistani family, between two members of the family who have no difference between them when it comes to India - the military and the militants. Neither care two hoots for Beena Sarwar and Asif Zardari either.

So, what's the point? Again, is this the same old "no alternative" factor or something different we expect from Pakistan?

Pew_Research and Other Indians

I am still not quite sure what use Beena Sawars and Asif Zardaris of Pakistan are to India (or to the rest of mankind).

They have no control over Pakistani military or Pakistan's Islamic militants, so anything to do with India is out of their hands.

Is any of us hoping that either with our moral support or without it Beena Sarwars and Asif Zardaris will grow strong enough to overpower Pakistani military and Pakistan's Islamic militants? If not, why waste time with either?

That FATA fight has nothing to do with us. It is an internal fight within Pakistani family, between two members of the family who have no difference between them when it comes to India - the military and the militants. Neither care two hoots for Beena Sarwar and Asif Zardari either.

So, what's the point? Again, is this the same old "no alternative" factor or something different we expect from Pakistan?

I never said dawood should not be assasinated, all I said is muslims find it hypocritical that hindus want him dead because his victims are mostly hindu and not thakeray whose victims are all muslim and a)whose act preceded dawoods and b)killed and buchered more people

Borivilli that was an excellent point about other Dawoods rising up when the underlying cause is not addressed. But what is the underlying cause that gives rise to the mafia I wonder. There has to be justice both for Dawood and for Thakre. But all I hear you say is if there isn't justice for one there shouldn't be for the other either. It's a twisted sort of corollary.
BTW is Dawood a spokesman/representative of Indian muslims or even marathi muslims?

I think that the Mumbai attacks, unlike other previous terror attacks in India that could also be traced back to Pakistan, are a manifestation of a domestic war between the Pakistani home-grown militants and the new civilian govt. The Pakistani civil war has spilled over to Mumbai. The Pak military/ISI are hedging their bets and are not fully behind Zardari. The decision to backtrack on sending the ISI chief to India is an example of this discord. Here's why:

The Pakistani-home grown terrorists (Taleban, et al) are feeling the heat from NATO and an unwilling Pakistani military/ISI that is being forced to undertake the task of cleaning up FATA by NATO. The Pak military/ISI need a pretext to divert troops away from the unpleasant job of clearing FATA. The Pak militants lack a club big enough to overthrow the civilian government, one of their stated goals. This is where the attacks on Mumbai make ‘sense’ - provoke India into action that will simultaneously bring down the civilian government (advantage: militants) and provide a rationale for moving troops away from FATA (advantage: Pak military/ISI). The big club that the militants seek and do not yet have is an enraged India that makes military moves. They are hoping that the Pakistani state gets caught between the NATO hammer and the Indian anvil, and that they eventually emerge victorious in the ensuing anarchy once Pakistan descends into chaos.

The objectives of the militants and the ISI are aligned in this case, but for different reasons – the militants want to destabilize Pakistan and the ISI wants to provoke India and thereby create conditions for moving Pak army away from FATA. The fact that the ISI interests in this case are opposite of Zardari’s (i.e peace with India) is why they are not fully behind him. The militants would be quite satisfied with the destruction of the Pakistani state so that they could then supplant it with their own Talibanesque regime. The ISI, of course, would not. That is where the interests of the militants and the ISI diverge, with each assuming that they could successfully ride the tiger and shape events to their favor. It is a reckless game that each side is playing, but Zardari is in no position to forestall it alone. Hence the recent all-party meet. It remains to be seen if Pakistani politicians can tame the military and the militants. I would not bet on that happening, however desirable the outcome might be.

The militants are irascible – they will not bend and negotiate, and will not mind the dissolution of the Pakistani state. The only way to subdue them is through force. The ISI, though reckless, will not quite go so far as to accept the dissolution of Pakistan. That, then, gives the world potential leverage over it and finally cause it to turn wholeheartedly against the militants. That is the only logical path left to proceed and ope that the ISI mends its ways before it is too late for Pakistan. For more on this idea, read Robert Kagan’s ‘Pakistan’s Sovereignty Dodge’ in today’s The Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/01/AR2008120102438. html?hpid=opinionsbox1

same with this hafiz guy the problem is far bigger

I dont think its a question of hard or soft state, you dont need to be a hard state to send one or two guys into a third world mess like pakistan in order to assasinate dawood or hafiz, if cong canot then BJP could have done that, why didnt they? it wasnt as if they didnt have enough time they ruled india for 6 years, they did the nuclear tests in one month, organised guj rights in 2 days.

its because dawood is actually perepheral, the problem has gone far beyond him in scale and magnitude.

HP:

"....Now go and ask the Interpol to send its people to Pakistan and arrest him."

Interpol does not arrest people. It advises the national govt. to do so. Govts. can refuse.

......therefore continuation of this triangulation game played by Mush is the compulsion that Zaradari faces today. They would never shut down LeT groups nor they can round them up these elements.

If Zaradri tries too hard to quell the true jihadists in Pakistan he'd be packed shipped to heavens by the ISI+Army renagades.

this borivili is repeating what the Chebed House terrorists said on India TV.

'What the Israeli ppl are doing here (in Indian Kashmir)? Are Jewish ur maamas?'

The point is that what amount of straight face and dead-bats from Pakistan is not going to take away the underlying msg in these terrorist attacks.

Zardari is too secular and money-minded to wage jihad against India. His FM is too naive to talk anything seriously. If Zaradri tries too hard to quell the true jihadists in Pakistan he'd be packed shipped to heavens.

The Kayani boss is playing hide and seek with Americans by bartering GWOT with their 'just' fight fro Kashmir. Relocation of army means US would pressurise India to be naram, despite the bloodshed & this covert war on India by the Pak Army and ISI.

If the intl jihadi groups are busy fighting western forces in Pashtun areas, the subcontinental jihadi groups are fighting the mortal enemy of Pakistan aka Islam aka Ummah i.e India.

These Bombay attacks has the signature of Pak jihadi elements but somewhat mrophed with AQ ideology this time.

a. Pak TV shows linked Marriot bombings with Indian agencies. Now they attacked Taj Hotel.

b. The terrorists repudiated the presence of Jewish ppl in Indian Kashmir. It's the article of faith for Pakistani Army & ISI to speak for the 'solution' to Kashmir.

c. Tipu Sultan's famous quote is parroted by the terrorists on India TV (to live like a lion for a day that 100 yrs as a fox). The topic is taught in Pakistan in school/uni curriculum as part of Muslim History in the subcontinent.

d. The terrorists invoked Muslims of Hyderabad as they enjoy enormous financial muscle and are votaries of being southern Pakistan. The popular party there i.e. Majlis Ithehadul Muslameen (MIM) is the believer in the ideology of Razakaar Qasim Rizvi who fought against the accession of Hyderabad to India. Pak jihadis see Hyderabad as a bright spot in their plans for Islamisation of India.

e. Shut Bombay for a few days and u cripple India for a while financially. Pak jihadis would never try to cripple Ranchi or Musrhidabad.

these namak haraaamis in India need a bit more namak in their buunds while sparing the 'noraml' ppl.

borivli, just trying to understand..i understand why muslims want thakre or modi to be punished and are unhappy that they roam free. but i could not understand why YOU dont understand that indians want dawood to be punished. (he probably did kill some muslims too, but that is besides the point). so sure, dawood will be punished and maybe someone else will take his place, but we must do our dharma without worrying too much about fruits, no?

waisey, we have a lot of politicians in india with murder convictions (not just accusations) LOL.

Jang when Indians want dawood to be extradited and punished for his terrorism in 93 but not only not punish thakeray but elect him for his role in the riots before or Modi since, while they roam openy in India and are hailed as national leaders the claim to justice doesnt sound convincing.

Muslims feel the only reason the hinuds want dawood is because his victims are mostly hindus while the only reason india doesnt punish rioters and modi thackeray is because there victims are muslim

Chittagong:

What you report is true, then Pakistan needs to act and show results. All can be very good for Zardari, and Congress too, and for entire South Asia it will be marked as the beginning of new relations between neighbors.

Borivilli:

Kashmir will not get settled anymore than it is right now, for quite sometime. Mumbai is a game changing event.

Pak accepts terrorists may be from its territory

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/USA/Pak_accepts_terrorists _may_be_from_its_territory_US/articleshow/3786207.cms

http://www.stratfor.com /memberships/128267/analysis/20081202_pakistan_choosing_civil_strife_over_war_in dia

Stratfor has learned that Islamabad privately has conveyed an official message to Washington and New Delhi that the people involved in the attack have been identified, and that the Pakistani government will take action against them. We also have learned that Pakistan’s civil-military leadership has decided that Lashkar-e-Taiba must be neutralized because it is jeopardizing Pakistani security. The Pakistanis thus are willing to make tough concessions and liquidate those responsible for the attack as long as India holds back.

dombivali, so you dont believe in justice? are you saying perpetrators of violence should be allowed do go free because the underlying causes are not resolved?

Borivilli:

Was Dawood not from Azamgarh?

and if possible sit with zardari and Kiyani and settle kashmir

Re: # 263

Ah_Snark:

India will control more damning evidence, for right and obvious reasons. It cannot afford to increase the anger, as It must control its right wing fascists. It will allow, in my view, Zardari to act and show to the world verifiable results something Rice has mentioned also. I am afraid that with elections only few months away, Congress may get tougher than even BJP to prove its credentials. It obviously has handled Nuclear Treaty and Amarnath quite well, compared to BJPs stand. All indicators until this episode was that Congress can win the elections. But now?

Indians, both muslims and Hindus, are searching for easy answers. what was Dawood? son of a marathi muslim constable then an extortionist, smuggler with hindu henchman who paid off and was paid by hindu politicians and used to cheer and host the Indian team in Dubai before 92 riots. what made him support memon brothers in crrying out blasts? the tales of muslims butchered by the police, business burnt and sisters raped, no hindu can understand that pain.

Similarly what was hafiz? a product of CIA's anti soviet jihad and ISI/pakistan's Kashmir policy. we cant change the past even the USA is regretting their role in Afghan Jihad and then their withdrawal.

if these dawood and hafiz die today their replacements can come up over nite infact they probably already have and they might be the people who did these terrorist attacks?

If there is genuine anger and outrage fix the law and intelligence system instead of seeking quick fixes which are anyway only cosmetic

vrv, bori managed to muddle my head more than usual today. :)

Didn't mean to stop your discussion. Go ahead. I will stay out of it.

#265 aha_snark. point taken. Hard to guage such things, but I think the general trend is unmistakably towards westernization aka rationality aka modernism around the world.

Granted muslims in india took a late start (despite Sir Syeds valiant efforts 150 years ago) - but as my father used to say: ultimately the fool does the same thing as the wise man, but only a lot later and after paying much greater cost.

262, I can argue with ppl who talk straight like bori but not with ppl like u.

shankar #261 i too found the indian muslims refusing burial to these cold-blooded killers as being an excellent move. This will send a message to any delusional individuals among indian muslims to not live out their psychopathic tendencies in the name of "muslim grievances" or "islami nizam". i hope Pakistan TV and all are playing up this move as well - it might give second thoughts to some of the taliban followers...

Re: # 253 tahmed32

yes tahmedji, there are many people in india living in the dense jungles. my point was not to say that everyone in pakistan is unvaccinated - as far as i can see there is considerable resistance in non-metropolitan pakistan to the ideas of the west... which is differnt from, as you pointed out, China.

Shankar, may I ask a question.

Do you think THIS time Pakistan is different, and we have a NEW opporunity?

Or, do you think India has no alternative but to let things be as they have been for the last 20 years at least?

Re: # 258 HP

was this a snark

no, it wasn't . you said reports should be official and not some newspaper report. my observation was that this man was an official and his report was reported in a newspaper.

anyway. i'm pretty sure more "official" evidence will emerge in the days to come.

What India needs to prove is that the guy had connection with any agency of the Pakistani state.

no one is saying that or alleging that at this stage. What the evidence (including circumstantial evidence (( which you do accept, as you have said)) ) does point to, however, is that there was extensive training/ planning / logistics support from a group of people in Pakistan

vrv, I think bori is being very reasonable.

But the whole debate about 'justice' is a big one. We can get too emotional looking at it in parts - our parts.

Somehow if we can put that obsession aside until we can understand what we mean by it, and what others mean by it, Hindus and Muslims and everybody else can live in peace. That is difficult though because we want our notions of justice to be enforced, and that creates huge problems for others.

hey, may be we still can arrive at some understanding with bori. Won't that be great? :)

Eklavya,
India doesn't have the clout (or the resources) of the US...ie. no predator drones.I don't think a military strike is an option. That will lead to nuclear war.

The only way these fundos will be vanquished is if the civil society of Pakistan defeats them. Now that may seem far fetched. I have this belief that the "silent majority" of Pakistanis are decent people who just equally fed up of this Indo-Pak bs. They never make it in the news because there are rarely given the opportunity to express themselves.When given an opportunity (like the last election), they kicked the King's party out. They gave the religious parties one try (during Mushy's rule), but the religious parties also got the boot.

I think this is a golden opportunity if GoI has the guts & vision to bank on it. Grandstanding will only make Pakistanis thump their chests as well. Its already happening. So far, Kayani has not shown any ambitions of taking over.

Why the heck cant we think out of the box? What is the alternative? The terrorists WANT India & Pakistan to hate each other. We are just helping them achieve their goals.

I just read that the dead terrorists are being disallowed (by the Indian Muslim community) from being given any Islamic last rites or burial in a Muslim cemetery. No 72 virgins for them! rah rah...

Re: # 242 borivili express

1. it's not a Hindu response it's an Indian one. There's nothign particularly Hindu about it and a whole lot of things that are resoundingly Indian. Your cliches, in this context at least, belong in your Pakistaniat textbooks.

2. It's not 'moral indignation', it's the rage of a country attacked.

3. The Gujarat pogrom was a blot on Indian society and thank the gods, has not been repeated.

4. Several rioters have been jailed. Several more are under trial. There's not a major media organisation that doesnt throw the riots in the Sangh's face regularly. Moreover, you cannot, at the same time, point to investigations into the Malegaon blasts AND say that anti-Muslim crimes go uninvestigated. They do not.

5. I reject your formulation of an exclusively Hindu India. India -- just India -- would be better served by better investigation and intelligence.

To re-emphasise, the fact that India is flawed in no way detracts from or negates the seriousness of the fact that we came under terrorist attack - apparently from a group of persons based in Pakistan.

HP #241 Zardari is up against a formidable foe in the terrorist network. this seems clear at the bizarre "offers" right after mumabai crisis started of the fazlullah and baitul masud to stop fighting the Pakistan military and to join them in fighting India - and by claims from unnamed "army sources" that these two scoundrels were suddenly "patriots". I hope Pakistan army does not stop its work of cleaning out fata due to tensions with India. It has the taliban on the run now, and if there is a hiatus the bastards will regroup

#248 Posted by Aha_Snark
"Well, about newspapers, HP, the Bombay Police Commissioner, Mr. Ghafoor, was talking about the plot - and that was reported, i admit, in a newspaper."

Is this a snark?

What India needs to prove is that the guy had connection with any agency of the Pakistani state. And they still have to prove that he was linked with some Pakistani organization beyond his own statement to the police. He is clearly a crazy person and so far nothing about him has checked out comprehensively. Barely had education but speaks English fluently. From the attire and general demeanor the guy does not appear to be from some godforsaken village. His picture and the confidence he shows is not part of village upbringing.

borivili_express,

Even if I had to accept that indiscriminate bombings and shootings done to avenge the state of India, u'd end up killing 20% of the Muslims in each such incident. That's the msg from Bombay today.

Borrowing ur logic, how the common ppl in in Pakistan would feel and 'do' for what it amounts to similar injustices there for eg. missing ppl, mass graves, tortures, white phosphorous (Lal Masjid) & weekly suicide bombings?

The more u play Pakistan card in India, the more u get fcuked up in Bombay.

Take ur pick.

bori # 250 agreed fully. Actually, coercing Indian Muslims or any other Indians is a terrible idea.

What the majority cannot allow is to be blackmailed in any forrm by any minority, but other than that it is veyr foolish to be deliberately unfair or hurtful toward any minority. That is how it works in any good society, even in Muslim majority country. We are not there yet, but that is the goal the majority should move toward.

Best.

Zaradari is smart that is why he has lowered the Kashmir solution to just open borders, unlike musharraf who was still holding out for autonomy etc but even he cant hand over dawood and hafiz whatever, they have too much dirt on pakistan and ISI and in the case of Dawood even on Indian and the US. infact even the indian politicos dont want dawood back he has too much dirt on them, they make the demand knowing well that pakistan wont send him over

#252 whatever you say, eklavia sahib.

#248 Aha_snark:

I was talking trends towards "westernization" or more appropriately "age of reason", not that everyone is there by any means. Even in the US, the age of reason isnt exactly there, as Sarah Palin will be happy to explain to you why God created the earth on a fine Monday morning in the year of the lord 4000 BC or so.

and on polio: this is some of the tribal areas of Pakistan basically (in fact, mostly in the same areas where the pakistan army was finally clearing out the taliban until mumbai at least). there was a world bank report i think only last week on "forest people" of india (tens of millions strong) who seem to live in even more primitive ways than our tribals.

tahmedji, it will be hilarious if Shankar bhai or any Indian found that a reasonable or sufficient response to this situation.

It makes sense for you to suggest it is, though, and one is not disputing your right to make that case.

Indians and Pakistanis are looking at the sitaution from different sides, and I haven't seen any meeting of the minds, yet (shankar might still accept your response as sufficient or even relevant, in which case I will think much less of him than I do, only because he is an Indian).

Tahmed,

Zardari has many issues. He has no vision and is merely an order taker. So I am not sure he has the ability but at this moment the best course for him to keep his mouth shut and only speak through his official statements after thinking through the issues. I was aghast at the statement that Pakistan would withdraw forces from the Western borders. That would hurt Pakistan more than any confrontation with India.

In fact, I don't see any possibility of a confrontation with India. There is going to be a verbal assault, lots of diplomatic activity and in the end Pakistan will tighten up some jihadi organizations, force them to go underground. No one can take out forces that operate on the fringes of the society. How many India has taken out in its own country in the last 60 years?

The Indian government needs to make statements and Pakistan should not overreact. Let them say it. You don't confront an angry man shouting on the street. Once the temperatures go down, the time to talk will come.

Generally for the last 8 years Indians have been very accommodating and have not created problems and we should not let them do it just because we too have some hot heads in Pakistani establishment.

Bottom line they might be able to coerce Indian muslims (though in this case Indian muslims are genuinely outraged) but its not really the most effective long term strategy, they cant coerce Pakistan, firstly because Pakistan has airdefences which are reasonably effcetive and they showed a willingnes to use them when both indian aircraft which crossed over into their airspace during were immediately shot down. secondly escalating tensions with them runs not only a nuclear risk but the risk of US intervention which means US pressure to solve Kashmir as well, which for some reason Indians are not keen to solve even if it means only having open borders between the two kashmirs.

So better fix what you can, that is your own system, its hard not impossible.

Eklavya #245 i provided the reasons for what i said (as i generally try to do).

your "LOL" in response simply indicates that you are a fool. (Sorry if this offends you, but it is for your own good).

Re: tahmed32 & HP

Well, about newspapers, HP, the Bombay Police Commissioner, Mr. Ghafoor, was talking about the plot - and that was reported, i admit, in a newspaper.

tahmed32
a) yes, remittances are a crucial factor for the pakistani economy, especially now.
b) i'm much more sceptical about westernisation's perception in Pakistan. Forget modern notions of free will, gender equality etc, there is trouble distributing polio vaccine in many parts of Pakistan. Apart from possibly north korea, i can't think of a country or region that is so vehemently against the "Age of Reason".

Zardari is no fool, thankfully, and has played his cards very well so far - from outmaneuvering NS, the deposed Chief Justice, disbanding the ISI political wing, abolishing the NSC. Moreover, Kayani seems to be a no-nonsense professional soldier (touch wood) However, in my opinion, setting a bold precendent, gaining massive international capital and takign the moral high ground is an option Zardari can take - if he were bold enough to act on the evidence.

Bori bhai, I don't think Hindu moral indignation would have any weight with a Muslim, and that is the point both of us have to understand.

But you are quite right on the second point. Hindus need to improve their own systems - not to convince any Muslim - which is neither necessary nor possible - but for their own safety.

HP yar i dont care about dawood..keep him. i dont think he is good for pakis..but that is your problem.

i though you want to see his notice. i actually agree with you that indian state is very weak to actually do something about these things and they should be doing things. its a soft state a-la gunner myrdal.

Shankar,

Your post deserves the response like thamedji's # 240

If this satisfies you, then good luck to you and to us -

(a) Zardari is a smart guy
(2) Pakistanis love Indians.

LOL


May be, that's what we Indians need to be happy and safe.

#242 be: "Hindus would be better served if they profesionalised their law enforcement, intelligence and judicial system"

agreed. and the same applies to pakistan, i have no doubt you will agree. we would all be better off.

HP #235 If Zardari can pull this one off, i.e. managing the post-mumbai fallout, he could well bring about a paradim shift in India-Pakistan relations. And it is clear he knows the stakes he is playing with. We shall probably know the answer in a few days where he is headed.

Aha Snark read my post again if u didnt get it. Hindu Moral indignation would have more weight if the antimuslim violence was not routine and unpunished in India or if its perpetrators were brought to book instead of being elected to office.

Hindus would be better served if they profesionalised their law enforcement, intelligence and judicial system.

All of you good people who are going the 'evidence' route with Pakistanis deserve a special salute. You must have the patience of God Himself to still maintain hope.

Shankar #232 Well said. Zardari, despite his shortcomings, has proved clear-headed on the terrorism issue. And he has shown the political smarts so far: 1. He sought and got PMLN and other political parties (excluding the religious parties, but who dont matter anyway in the NA after the last elections) to support him in responding to mumbai; 2. Without fanfare, last week he disbanded the NSC, which had given legal cover to military interference in politics.

As for the people of Pakistan - Indians have only to remember how warmly they have received them when they visit Pakistan (including the time a few years ago when several thousand Indian cricket fans were pleasantly surprised at the hospitality and friendliness shown to them not just by ordinary Pakistanis but by police as well).

#236 Posted by jang on December 2, 2008 12:24:40 pm
HP yar here the interpol notice

Okay good....Now go and ask the Interpol to send its people to Pakistan and arrest him. Let the interpol deal with that.

#233 Posted by Aha_Snark

You are an intelligent man. Newspaper article don't constitute evidence. Let the indian government come out with some official statement and evidence and only then it would officials.

shankar,

Not sure what you meant. So we need a 'friendly' government in Pakistan even if it can do nothing and does nothing to help India against terror arising from Pakisani soil?

Why on earth do we need such a government?

Is it because all other options will be worse? May be at some point Indians should explore other options.

HP yar here the interpol notice

http://www.interpol.int/public/Data/NoticesUN/Notices/Data/1993/93/19 93_14193.asp

Address:
WHITE HOUSE, NEAR SAUDI MOSQUE, CLIFTON in KARACHI (Pakistan)

#228 Posted by tahmed32
"I dont think you can call this Dawood a "Pakistani intelligence asset". An intelligence assets provides info about the enemy military. If he is not even in India, then he cant be doing that."

I did not say for sure he is an intelligence asset. But he could be working for the pakistani intelligence when he was in India. An intelligence asset does not necessarily have to be an informer. He can be used for subversive acts. The new intelligence is not about military alone. We never know but some Pakistani agent might be in the top BJP leadership also.

I generally agree that there is no reason for Pakistan to hold on to him. But IF he was an intelligence asset, he might have information that the Pakistan intelligence would not let Indians have it through interrogating him.

Anil, the truck was stopped at the outside gate by the security. It never got to the main lobby...go look at the video again you are just being a nuisance now.

Aha_Snark #224: I basically agree with everything you say, and certainly wont deny that things look bad. But I see the half full part of the glass as well:

1. If Pakistanis are migrating to other countries, they will become assets to Pakistan in the longer run (remittances, charity donations, and most important, opening up of minds).

2. Civil society in Pakistan has proved its mettle, and inspired thinking people with their courage and understanding of the difference between right and wrong - from Mukhtaran Mai to the Chief Justice. Babus (fauji and civilian) can only wonder how people who cant speak english like they end up being celebrities.

3. Musharraf and Zia before him set such miserable examples of military rule that it is hard to imagine a military general having the nerve to take over Pakistan again (I could be wrong here, of course).

4. Most important, wherever the rest of the world goes, so goes every other country on the planet, including Pakistan. Traditional cultures the world over (whether it is India or Pakistan) have failed in the face of what used to be called "westernization", but what is more aptly called the "Age of Reason" which had its cradle in the west but whose enormous practical advantages have moved even ancient cultures like China to look to the west as the model for political and economic development (The best seller in China a few years ago was: "How to get your child admission in Harvard").

Re: # 229 borivili_express

India shouldn't protest or be aggrieved by terrorism, which, by several latest accounts [1] [2] [3] was planned in Pakistan. Because India didn't send Narendra Modi to the Hague? What's the link?

[1] http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Mumbai-Terror-Attack-Plan-Revealed/A rticle/200812115170931
[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/asia/03mumbai.html?_r=1&hp
[3] http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/more-on-the-captured-gunman/

I feel that the sympathy & grief that has come out of Pakistan has been genuine & heartfelt. I feel most Pakistanis condemn this as vehemently as any other people. I also feel Zardari administration had nothing to do with this.

Zardari has gone out of his way to be friendly with India. I think he genuininely believes that an Indo-Pak rapproachment is in the best interests of both countries. I never trusted Musharraf. He has played a double game right from the beginning. It finally caught up to him.

Zardari's wife was killed by the ISI/Army (overtly or covertly). Nobody can prove anything, but c'maan, the ISI/Army definitely had a hand. If Zardari cant get the ISI to find out who is behind his wife's killing, how in Allah's name can he find any ISI-LeT-Mumbai connection?

Yeah, like all Indians I'm pissed off. However, if the GoI is trying to deflect the blame to Pakistan to draw heat from themselves, its going to blow up on them.

The only long term solution to this is that Pakistan has a friendly civilian govt & the GoI encourages them to be stronger.

#224 Posted by Aha_Snark

I don't dispute what you are saying. Pakistan is in seriously bad shape. We can blame it on anything, the army, the US or the Islamists but one reality remains that many countries in the world have gone through similar crises and have survived them. I mean just look at India and how many crises it has faced in the last 62 years including the division.

Pakistan has an added problem that it is not a natural state. That means it would take it a long time to develop national cohesion and every crisis would damage efforts to turn it in to a natural State. In the process it might collapse and one should be ready to accept that reality too. After the disastrous 30 years, the recovery process is going to be arduous. I think there are some positive signs out there. One sign is finally the civilian government no matter how weak it looks now but slowly people would be more willing to defend it rather than allow the other forces to bring it down. Pakistan has shed the religious parties hold over the country and slowly the ideological make up would change too.

The Terrorism in any country hurts both countries. While India has started its journey towards a hindu nationalist state, chances of Islamic nationalist to gain control in Pakistan are diminishing fast. The Mumbai incident is a set back and I have said it before that the right wing would benefit in both countries. I think in India the gain would be telling. The congress party is already BJP light. But in Pakistan, the right wing onslaught would be manageable.

Btw, people leave country and they make up several reasons for that. But a majority of Pakistanis would stick with the country because they are really the sons of the soils first and Pakistani citizen later.

Re: # 214

HP sahib:

There is video out regarding Marriott bombing. They could neither stop the truck nor the bombers. There is no need to be Quioxotic about it.

Unarmed or lightly armed security is no match to truck load of bomb, or to heavily armed terrorists with grenades and automatic assault rifles. This is why there is terrorism. May be in the part you live or come from, the equation is different.

For Hindus everything should be according to their sense of moral outrage: if they feel outraged by terrorism the whole world should shend bend over backwards, this is their sense of enitltement. On the other hand they will elect genociders like Thakeray and Modi etc to high office, and it is unreasonable of others to even question that, and unimaginable to askk that these guys be punished or brought to justice or that the state amd media take steps to prevent or reduce this from happening again.

Even a bum state like serbia has sent its genociders to the international courts, while their Hindu counterparts continue to luxurate and hold political power leave aside facing legal action, but the rest of the world should bend over for them. The irony of this or the futility of it never strikes them, for the present situation appears to them to be absolutely natural.

Similarly they want immediate action against pakistan and terrorists not realising they cant coerce Pakistan, while they can improve and professionalise their own security structure including intelligence and courts which will in addition to preventing future attacks also serve to prevent the pogroms which take away the credibility of the state and society's moral indignation

HP: I dont think you can call this Dawood a "Pakistani intelligence asset". An intelligence assets provides info about the enemy military. If he is not even in India, then he cant be doing that. If he has been breaking Indian laws in India, then the Zardari government should have a credible legal process and hand him over. I assume there is no extradition treaty between the two countries - and the Zardari government should offer a standard extradition treaty as well. What does Pakistan have to gain by giving sanctuary to fugitives from justice?

I meant neither government.

"The biggest tragedy of this modern world, with its information/internet/media explosion, is that nothing is seen as credible anymore."

No, KCS. That is not true. Despite their vast political difference the rest of the world is able to create many common understandings of facts, evidence is more or less accepted. But not with these guys.

With them the objective is not to look at any evidence at all, but continue what they do. No dicussion of any evidence will get anywhere. It is not meant to.

Borivilli, and neither side is being honest.

HP, Tahmed and others

I apologise if I'm coming across as cutting but I think I've hit a new low as far as my assessment of the surat-e-haal of Pakistan is concerned. I've been reading the Pakistani press every single day since the late 90s. I have made friends with and spoken to Pakistanis through skirmishes, sanctions, sabre-rattling, coups, detentes, cricket diplomacy and a merry-go-round ride of Pakistani technocrats and diplomats, feudal lords and Savile Row familiars

From a country that's endearing yet flawed, it has slowly, before my horrified eyes, started to come apart at the seams. My dear friend laughed at me 8 years ago when I asked her if she and her family ever thought of emigrating from Pakistan. Today, she and her entire family are ready to leave their posh Islamabad home, their property liquidated, their home in Dubai ready.

And yet, the peace process should continue? But who are we talking to? This most tenuous civilian government which cannot stop Members of Parliament from justifying the burying alive of women? A civilian government that has had to give everyone and their aunt a Ministership, just to pacify them all?

Take a leaf out of the playbook of the Indian Muslims. Why have no riots, not even the slightest signs of them, broken out in India? I believe that some part of that is because of Indian Muslims strongly (even if, in some cases, performatively) disowning terrorism and refusing the claim to co-religion of the terrorists.

Strengthen the forces in India that are calling for peace. Disown your old biases and take those bold steps. Silence the right in India by actually working with the aggrieved country - the Indians - and by taking the moral high ground and stating clearly that no person, however thick the layers of Islam he perverts and twists around himself, can do such and such things with impunity.

The only people who you strengthen by non-cooperation are the Indian right, who will reap rich rewards in the coming elections. If you support a moderate government in India, support it in more than just lip service.

So there is equation there.

So there is NO equation there.

#220 Posted by Aha_Snark

“a) would you be opposed to an Indian investigation team coming to Pakistan and questioning Javed Miandad, his son, his daughter-in-law and other leads for clues as to the whereabouts of Dawood Ibrahim?�

Whatever Daud Ibrahim did was before his daughter’s marriage but that is really irrelevant.
India knows his whereabouts already. At least that is what Indians are saying. But as I said if Daud Ibrahim was a Pakistani intelligence asset, then you might as well forget it. Or be ready to do a spy swap. Now I don’t know if India holds any Pakistani of high value for a swap. However, if India has the Interpol warrant then India should pursue him via the Interpol.

Imo, it would be easy to give up Masood Azhar and Pakistani should give him to Indians if and that is a big if, India is willing to move forward with a dialog.

Now the question is about US and Pakistani agreement of handing over the terrorism suspects. First, India is not US. So there is equation there. Second, Pakistan and India have a history of acrimonious relations over many issues and all issues have to be on the table.

Indian ho ya Pakistani aadmi desi hi rahega. Pakistan had agreed to send the ISI chief but Mr Pranab Mukherjee was making angry demands on the hotline with them, the fool thought he was making a public speech. Pakistanis being equaly paindu got "angry" and decided to send a lower ranking officer to show that they cant be cowed down.

when gods want to destroy someone they first do budhhi vinash

Re: # 196 HP

2. Getting 20 criminals back to India is hardly going to significantly change matters. At most; (a) it will signal some intent from the Pakistani state.

Not at all. It is forcing your desires on another State.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Unless you're saying that the request ("handing over wanted criminals for investigation and trial for acts of terrorism") is desired by India and opposed by Pakistan. Assume that the terrorist in custody has named a certain person in Pakistan as having provided training, counterfeit docuementation or equipment. Would you oppose handing over such a person for investigations or would you see it as a propaganda ploy?

a) would you be opposed to an Indian investigation team coming to Pakistan and questioning Javed Miandad, his son, his daughter-in-law and other leads for clues as to the whereabouts of Dawood Ibrahim?

b) given that (as anil says) Pakistan has given over custody of many many people to the US without clinching evidence in return for money, would you advise the Indian Government to route the request through the US State Department, for better results?

"It should be. 90 % of the murder cases in the US are decided on circumstantial evidence."


Let me correct that: before the DNA evidence, 90% cases in the US were decided on the circumstantial evidence.

#217 Posted by Aha_Snark
"Which country should the forensic experts be from, for their testimony to be counted by you as credible?"

Many countries can provide experts.

"In other words, circumstantial evidence would be acceptable as long as it came from diligent investigation?"

It should be. 90 % of the murder cases in the US are decided on circumstantial evidence.

Re: # 190 HP

Since the mistrust is the key here, international experts should be called in to rate the evidence.

Which country should the forensic experts be from, for their testimony to be counted by you as credible?

I think India needs to build a case based on circumstantial evidence which means that Indian intelligence agencies will need to do some serious work instead of shifting responsibilities.

In other words, circumstantial evidence would be acceptable as long as it came from diligent investigation?

The other option is to take out the suspects one by one. Indian agencies are certainly capable of doing that. In fact, they should have done that a long time ago instead of making lists.

^^ quoted for emphasis

HP sa'ab:

"“what would you accept as "credible evidence"?�

Sir, it is not for me to accept. The credible evidence is what most of the terrorism experts would believe is sufficient. Since the mistrust is the key here, international experts should be called in to rate the evidence. "

OK, next question to you: which international experts will you accept as being neutral and fair? Most probably, not the CIA or MI6 or Mossad. How about this self-styled expert called Zaid Hamid?

The biggest tragedy of this modern world, with its information/internet/media explosion, is that nothing is seen as credible anymore. The real truth can always be hidden under mounds of lies and convenient half-truths.

In the final analysis, satyameva jayate (the truth alone prevails). I can only pray that it happens in my lifetime.

aha_snark

Excellent point. One CAN be a leftist without being totally blind. (And probably a rightwinger without being totally inhuman).

Well, actually the security at Marriott did stop the truck at the entrance. Though It should have been stopped before that.

I think the terrorist should have made a phone call before getting to the door announcing their arrival at least 3 hours ahead of ETA.

Then and only then hotel security would have been ready....The joke is on you!

Re: # 210 aha_snark

anyhoo - welcome to the real world... :)

Re: # 208

Om:

"...HP how do you stop people who WALK in with guns blazing?..."

Idiots can, do and laugh.

Re: # 206

HP sahib:

"could not have stopped what took place,"

How do you live with this kind of idiots?

Do you honestly believe that security at these hotels, including Marriott in Islamabad, could have stopped these.

If you believe it, then most all will say you should use take the title that you liberally pass to others.

Re: # 187 mohar11


What happened to you dude - you seem to be completely out of your leftist "why can't we all get along" cocoon?... well, better late than never, huh? :)

Well, i'm still as left-leaning as before - that has nothing to do, imo, with being able to call bullshit.

Maybe in some distant future Indians and Pakistanis will be able to get along, as I had hoped. I just don't think it's worth it as things stand. And that is truly depressing.

HP how do you stop people who WALK in with guns blazing?

HP,
The right question is what right India has to demand anything of Pakistan, given that the Bombay atrocities were organized by Indians for Indians :}

Re: # 203

Aha_Snark:

The only way to prove Mian Masadi ji's hypothesis is when he has developed an understanding.

Any way in this example you quote, only way to prove is, if Mian Masadi ji is ready to accept Empires can make mistake. But then he is trying to the next Final Prophet.

From yahoo.

"India's foreign intelligence agency received information as recently as September that Pakistan-based terrorists were plotting attacks against Mumbai targets, according to a government intelligence official familiar with the matter. He said the information, which he attributed to Indian sources and not the Americans, included indications that hotels would be targeted but did not specify which ones.
The information was then relayed to domestic security authorities, said the official, who was not authorized to talk publicly about the details and spoke on condition of anonymity. But it's unclear whether the government acted on the intelligence.
The famous Taj Mahal hotel, scene of much of the bloodshed, had tightened security with metal detectors and other measures in the weeks before the attacks, after being warned of a possible threat.
But the precautions "could not have stopped what took place," Ratan Tata, chairman of the company that owns the hotel, told CNN. "They (the gunmen) didn't come through that entrance. They came from somewhere in the back."

I am laughing my head off because the Owner of the Taj Hotel claims that they did not come from that entrance so they could not be stopped.

How do you live with this kind of idiots?

Re: # 204 mahesg

it's called pakiwash... LOL...

Re: # 196

What kind of warped logic is this? Pakistan will not hand anybody over on the list because the list is too long? Are you out of your mind?

Re: # 202
ugh. post truncated.

Re: # 185 om_prakash

ssh. hang on, i'm interested in what Mr. Asadi has to say.

Mr. Asadi.

A wins tennis matches because of skill. A is the better player
A loses tennis matches only because the umpires are biased against him. A is actually the better player.

In other words, you have a rational framework which states on several occasions that terrorist attacks are actually False Flag [1] operations. How would it be possible for anyone to prove your propositions as false?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

Re: # 185 om_prakash

ssh. hang on, i'm interested in what Mr. Asadi has to say.

Mr. Asadi.

A wins tennis matches because of skill. A is the better player
A loses tennis matches only because the umpires are biased against him. A is actually the better player.

In other words, you have a rational framework which states on several occasions that terrorist attacks are actually

Eklavya,
The difference is between being wise even in anger and just being angry.
The ideal result will be when the civilian government in Pakistan that for the first time expresses sympathy for the attacks survives while at the same time, the terrorists are gotten rid of.
Unless you think all this huffing and puffing is going to pressure the Pak government to risk its very survival to meet your demands, you'd be wise and not let anger dictate your actions.

Abey paki - if you have any two guys from the list, then hand them over - that would be a start... india will forget about the rest... deal?...

anil ji, even if Pakistan had not sent those killers to the US, there would still be no evidence on earth that would satisfy the current state of Pakistan. It simply cannot accept any evidence because it can do nothing about it.

Re: # 192 om

well, how can any govt make demands "quietly" when there is blood on street?... why would pakis meet the demand if it was done "quietly", without any pressure, what would be their incentive?...

Anycase - pakis are not giving up their operatives to india whether you ask quietly or otherwise... unless there is enough international pressure... at this time, there is not much pressure coming, not visibly anyway... western nations have gone back to complacency because of the fact that there has not been any major attacks on them for a while...

And that's a terrible mistake... Mumbai is just a pre-cursor to what's coming - next time it would be a major one in western countries...

Re: # 190

Hmm. So, Pakistanis will not do anything except utter platitudes about how they are against terrorism while funding Jehadis on the side and egging them on agaist India.

Now, we have another empty vessel inviting Indians to operate on Pakistani soil.

#173 Posted by GT
1. Evidence: What does it really mean? The hijackers got a guy released and he is freely lecturing in rallies in Pakistan.

India is asking for 20 guys not two guys. I think if they had asked for the two guys they would have gotten them by now. Daud Ibrahim apparently was a Pakistani intelligence asset so I doubt that Pakistanis would give him up. Recently, UK did not give up an intelligence asset to Russia and Russians took him out. This has happened in many other cases too.

2. Getting 20 criminals back to India is hardly going to significantly change matters. At most; (a) it will signal some intent from the Pakistani state.

Not at all. It is forcing your desires on another State. No country would give in to these flimsy requests designed for propaganda. India should start with perhaps Massod Azhar and test Pakistani good will there.

3. It would be stupid for us to believe that terrorist attacks attacks will stop in the near future. Bombing Pakistan

I have made that point already.

Aha_Snark:

Any talk of evidence to be outed in public is a diversionary tactic. Pakistan has send suspects to Gitmo and for rendition on no evidence. This demand to make evidence public is hypocritical on top.

Unless we expect Pakistan to fully and openly cooperate in shutting down its terrorist camps, deporting dawood and hanging its other murderers, and such without anyone knowing about it at all! LOL

om prakash ji, GT bhai himself, and many other musims make that arguement. It is silly in the extreme.

We are speaking of life and death issues. Of a state that claims to have changed forever. That is going to fully and openly cooperate with India.

So spare us if you can with these how can they do it becuase it was in the papers? will you? :)

If our politicians were after results and were not simply grandstanding in front of the peanut gallery with the upcoming elections in mind, they would make whatever demand quietly but firmly.
How can any government give into demands which would be seen as capitualtion to threats?

Mohar bhai, let's actually welcome aha_snark. He is still the same great and brilliant guy but has seen the limits of working with a state that has outlived its utility for everyone, except a handful.

#176 Posted by Aha_Snark

“what would you accept as "credible evidence"?�

Sir, it is not for me to accept. The credible evidence is what most of the terrorism experts would believe is sufficient. Since the mistrust is the key here, international experts should be called in to rate the evidence.

In terrorism cases it is hard to find concrete evidence unless you catch the guy in act. The masterminds or the leaders would not fall in the Law enforcements hands as they don’t do the deed personally. The US so far hasn’t been able to present any evidence against OBL except for a video tape. The FBI has no case against him. So how India should deal with that? I think India needs to build a case based on circumstantial evidence which means that Indian intelligence agencies will need to do some serious work instead of shifting responsibilities. They may have to operate in Pakistan, if they think the circumstantial evidence exist in Pakistan. It is not hard to do.

The other option is to take out the suspects one by one. Indian agencies are certainly capable of doing that. In fact, they should have done that a long time ago instead of making lists. You need to put fear of the Indian State in these peoples hearts. Democracy does not mean that you stop your clandestine and hard intelligence work.

GT, it is a question of offering them a new vision and real benefits. They may or not may not accept it. It's even possible that many good men and women who currently call themselves Pakistanis will join in too, as Pakistnai state's fog begins to lift from over the area.

It is doable, and will create a radically different neighborhood, I argue, to the advantage of everyone.

HP Sahib:

With you penchant for research and reading, I am not convinced that you have not read Rice's statement in London. She clearly said that the U.S. intelligence has independently verified links to these Pakistan based elements from interception of communication by U.S. spy sattlite. She also spelled out in no uncertain what is expected of Pakistan to be transparent and participative.

You foolishly have an axe to grind, and you are letting it out more as your irrational arguments. I remember reading your post saying that your father had tears in his eyes when Bangladesh was formed. If responsbile people like yourself remain irrational, this time around you may have tears in your eyes. Please do not let happen. Keep this axe away and work toward sanity to prevail, and transparency to come.

Non-involvement of Pakistani government will only get these terror groups more aggressive and more confident that they truly have safe havens in Pakistan. Please see the light that there is too much resolve and anger world-wide over to not let any country be the safe haven for terror.

I sincerely hope people like yourself see the reality and quit the game that thinkers and actors of the group of your type have been playing for last 25 years. This game is over now, and no one has tolerance world-wide for such arguments in today's environment.

Re: # 183 aha_snark

What happened to you dude - you seem to be completely out of your leftist "why can't we all get along" cocoon?... well, better late than never, huh? :)

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/video-gallery/303424-must-watch-brass-tacks-more-mumb ai-drama.html

#177 Aha-Snark
These are not falsifiable for these are (almost) religious beliefs to be taken on faith.

Pakistan TV discussions on Mumbai terrorism

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/video-gallery/303424-must-watch-brass-ta cks-more-mumbai-drama.html#post6179499

Terrorists were from Pak, we have proof: Top cop

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/02mumterror-terrorists-were-from- pak-top-cop.htm

Kaal:

"We should work with Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, and even china ..."

But the question is: "Will they, or why should they, work with India?"

Re: # 154

Beena:

"...We have to find better ways to express our rage than threatening to annihilate each other..."

Pakistan part of the "We"'s time of reckoning has arrived. It needs to show results. There is an expectation for this part to produce results - "Walk the Talk". Otherwise it would be very difficult to not identify it as "Them".

See, an individual like dawood ibrahim has only limited value, and given that the man is 'indian' should be relatively easy to deport him to India.

But things like that are confirmatory evidence that the Pakistani state has changed in any meaningful way from 2001 when first such demands were made.

Then too we had the EXACT SAME arguments from pakistan, and same claims of a new Pakistan.

But if Pakistan deports this sob Dawood Ibrahim or actually hangs that London School of Economics murderer, then you KNOW Pakistan has changed.

Until then, it is all the same story. We can keep collecting 'satisfactory evidence' for Pakistani state as long as we like. Question is: do we keep waiting for the story to end or actively begin to prepare for an alternative one.

I support the latter option. We should work with Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, and even china to create incentives for them in an establishing an alternative arrangement.

Re: # 172

No, the list is never irrelevant. The question is how serious is the Pakistani government in rooting our terrorism in its society. And one way it can show that its words are not empty is to hand over the people in this list who have been implicated in the past. Of course, anybody implicated in the Mumbai carnage needs to be handed over as well.

Re: # 161 warpster
[...if the account below is verified to be true in the basics, then it implies that Pakistani society needs to defuse groups like LeT...]

And if it was NOT verified, you want to keep these groups as they are?... I mean, is it any secret to anybody what these groups do and have done?... do you really need "evidence" from anybody to try to "defuse" these groups...

The time for such chicanery and skullduggery is already over - Pakistani society does not need "evidence" from anybody, pakis have move on them now, for their own good, even if they donot care about others...

Re: # 170

Mr. Asadi,

Consider the following situations:

1. A direct attack on a Muslim/Pakistani resource occurs, leading to the conclusion that the Americans/Israelis/Indians were behind it.

2. A direct attack on an American/Israeli/Indian interest occurs and Muslims / Pakistanis are publicly blamed. The conclusion is that Americans/Israelis/Indians are the culprits because they want Muslims/Pakistanis to be blamed.

How would I go about proving that any of the above statements is false?

Sorry HP, that was meant to be

Re: # 165 & 172

HP, what would you accept as "credible evidence"?

Re: # 165 & 167

HP, what would you accept as "credible evidence"?

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HP,

Three points.

1. Evidence: What does it really mean? The hijackers got a guy released and he is freely lecturing in rallies in Pakistan. Now is the fact that hijackers got him released sufficient, or does India have to provide evidence of his criminal background to Pakistani authorities? A similar case can be made about Mr. Ibrahim.

2. Getting 20 criminals back to India is hardly going to significantly change matters. At most; (a) it will signal some intent from the Pakistani state. I do not know how much value it will provide given the fact that the Pakistani govt. will be adversely affected; (b) it will give the Indian govt. a lot of bragging space but lessen the "Pakistan is to blame" syndrome. I believe the GOI puts more value on the latter. Hence, it went about the demands in a way that Pakistan could never accept it.

3. It would be stupid for us to believe that terrorist attacks attacks will stop in the near future. Bombing Pakistan, war etc. are as Sheru said like "...wishing to have sex with Prianka Chopra". India has to invest in anti criminal procedures starting from composite planning through till special courts. India can also try to convince the US to put some pressure on the Pakistani army. I doubt the US will help. So one needs to prepare seriously for hard times like in war. It is already a war of attrision.

#167 Posted by kcs
"Then, the bigger question would be - CAN the GoP, even if it is willing, do anything about it?"

Don't underestimate the strength of the Law enforcement agencies in Pakistan. It is certainly more efficient than what we see in India. Arresting those guys is a political decision and once the decision is made, the law enforcement would not have any problem in getting to them eventually. Unless they leave the country or become OBL.

"Just because the list (of 20 wanted men) is 7 years old does not make it obsolete or irrelevant."

It is completely irrelevant if you can't provide any evidence that those guys were involved in the Mumbai firing.

#161 Posted by warpster

You have not provided any link to the story but here is a contradictory story. You can read the full story here:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/56808.html

You will see a picture of the village too and he spoke fluent English...What have Indian been drinking?

FARIDKOT, Pakistan — For the past three days Pakistani intelligence agents and police have been combing this sleepy village in search of clues to the identity of the lone gunman captured in the Mumbai terror attacks, residents said on Monday.

Indian officials and news media officials identified him variously as Ajmal Amir Kamal, Azam Amir Kasav, or Azam Ameer Qasab, and Indian news media quoted police as saying that the alleged killer's home village was in Faridkot, near the city of Multan in the southern part of Pakistan's Punjab province.

Local residents, however, are bewildered and alarmed. They said there was no one of that surname in this village, and no missing resident who fit the pictures and description shown in the Indian news media.

"All the agencies have been here and the (police) special branch," said village elder Mehboob Khan Daha, referring to Pakistan's plainclothes counterterror police. "We have become very worried. What's this all about?" Agents from Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) also appeared to be present on Monday, questioning locals.

Shown a picture of the alleged militant, Daha said: "That's a smart-looking boy. We don't have that sort around here."

There are no jihadis here," Ijaz Ahmed, a 41-year-old farmer, chimed in, sitting by Daha. "I can think of maybe 10 or 20 people here who have even been as far as Multan."

The Faridkot link is a key element in the evidence cited by Indian officials that the attackers of Mumbai came from Pakistan.

The captured terror suspect was said to come from Faridkot. He was said to be 21 and to speak fluent English. A photograph of him shows a modern-looking young man swaggering in Western clothing, with an AK-47 in hand."

HP writes "That wouldn't work. In fact this move from India is actually an attempt to continue the crisis and Pakistan should deal with that in the similar fashion they have dealt with it in the past."

It is because they were themselves involved in the plot with the U.S. Why do you think they are trying to make a case out of no case whatsoever? And why do you think the US thinks they have a "case"?

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 157 harish_hyd "..all past incidents engineered by the ISI will come to light..."

And is any one ever going to mention anything of the muck that those nuggets at RAW been perpetrating in Pakistan...whether they have a hand in any nefarious activities there, murders of innocents, destruction of Marriot Islamabad, bombings and other stuff like that...they are after all pure angels...can do no evil...still one wonders

And KCS, if we realize that Pakistan's government whatever it is can do nothing, then what do indians do?

(I think this evidence game may continue for press-releases or for show, but we shouldn't put any trust in that route anymore. That bit is over, and we have given as much evidence as we could. Think of it this way - we can't get any better than we have been in collecting evidence for Pakistanis and convincing them as a nation for the last 20 years.)

#165 HP,

In terrorist attacks of this nature, executed by vile professionals, it takes a lot of time to unearth evidence (especially when the confessions of an arrested terrorist in this age are pooh-poohed as being given under duress). Put yourself in the shoes of the investigating officers, for just a bit.

The only mistake one could accuse the Indian police and politicians of doing is opening their mouth to the media at this stage. But then, they are likely just succumbing to the pressure to deliver (just as IT engineers or mediamen do on a daily basis - succumbing to the pressure from their bosses to deliver).

Just because the list (of 20 wanted men) is 7 years old does not make it obsolete or irrelevant. It only shows that Pakistan has done nothing for so many years. The only fear is that it will continue to do nothing even now (even if irrefutable evidence is attained). But let's wait and watch, I hope the GoP will succumb to the international pressure to deliver.

Then, the bigger question would be - CAN the GoP, even if it is willing, do anything about it?

"Within this year they have seen at least three major attacks on the civilian structures..."

That's quite right. We Indians don't realize because we tend to forget, but Pakistan-related attacks on India have been continuous, 50 killed here, 60 killed there, a series of bombs here and another series of bombs there.

So we can either continue as things are, and let Pakistanis (who may have nothing to do with Pakistan's civilian government if any such government exists at any time) continue to increase the level of attacks, while we collect more 'evidence' for them.

Or we proactively manage that entire area between us and Afghanistan. I suggest Pakistani state is of no use to us, of no redeeming value whatsoever. Better alterantives exist. For us, for Afghanistan, for Iran, for Russia, and even for China (if we offer them a bold proposal as well).

Let's put some real resources behind those goals and go for them.

Meanwhile, if threats serve a purpose, then those should be used constantly. The current set up in Pakistan doesn't have much cushion, should we choose to be serious about it.

(Meanwhile Pakistan will do and should do the same for us, and that is fine.)

Welcome back aha_Snark a sane voice from India.

The argument that India should refrain from pressing Pakistan due to the fragile nature of the civilian government would not convince anyone. India is dealing with the state and not the civilian government.

The biggest fall out of Mumbai is already the rise of the right wing in both countries. For Pakistan it is an extremely grave situation. Pakistani civilian government should lift itself from the mental morass it finds itself stuck in and begin to provide leadership instead of looking to India or anyone else for help.

There is not even a remote chance of India attacking Pakistan now or in future but posturing for war can provide the needed boost in the diplomacy. I see that India has made the first mistake. I still can't believe that a government which is so sure of Pakistani involvement in the current situation is still unable to provide any evidence about the current issue.

They have dusted off a 7 years old list and would like to see Pakistan act on that. That is not diplomacy it is blackmail and there is no way Pakistan government would concede to this blackmail. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. This is just an attempt to apply rhetorical brick and mortar to the new framework.

That wouldn't work. In fact this move from India is actually an attempt to continue the crisis and Pakistan should deal with that in the similar fashion they have dealt with it in the past. The best way for India was to present some concrete proposals to end the cycle and not perpetuate it. Why it is assumed that the arrest of 20 people would stop the terrorism? If Pakistan acts on it, this will actually increase the violence as many groups would look for the revenge.

The best way to handle this list is to do it quietly and behind the scenes and not make a crude display of it. It is clearly that Indian State is being controlled by completely inept lunatics. Within this year they have seen at least three major attacks on the civilian structures still they have no system to deal with the emergencies in some major cities. Any government which fails to provide these basic services to its people is clearly morally bankrupt and intellectually incapable of providing leadership. We see that in how they are dealing with a major crisis any government could face.

The reasonable way to deal with this is to write up some concrete measures and be ready to work with Pakistan instead of sending stupid demands down. The arrest of the 20 people will not stop groups now or in future from terrorists acts.

Just a thought: It might be easier to control or even eliminate terrorism if we were dealing with a number of smaller units.

Some reasons come to mind - most importantly, there will be a closer and more visible connection between supporting terrorism and paying a price for it. At any time and place there will be fewer disopsable resources to transfer to terrorism. And if it is true that most people don't support terrorism, then they can get on with their lives without being hobbled with those who do.

These smaller units can form their own linkages among themselves or externally, as they wish, and chart their own courses, independent of one another.

If we offer a bold proposal to the Americans and the work carefully with other key regional players, we can reconfigure resources in our NW more optimally for all, including for us.

There seem to be two possibilities:

1. Pakistan's civilian government can do nothing about terrorism against India.
2. Pakistan's civilian government wants to do nothing about terrorism against India.

I suspect (1) is true more than (2) is.

Let's say Pakistan's civilian government is can do nothing about terrorims against India. What then are India's options?

1. Is Pakistan's civilian government even relevant to India's calculations?

2. Can or should India try to 'strengthen' Pakistan's civilian government so the latter becomes strong enough to stop terrorism against India? We have to consider our capabilities, costs, likelihood of success, and timeframe.

3. Should India now actively seek other alternatives, opening up to possibilities that have never been tried before?

We do seem to have gone through every other option, repeatedly since the late 1980s. It's been 20 years of the same merry go round. Does one try anything new after that long a period? I would, whatever it is.

--------------

Don't know about other people but i don't think we are at the stage of evidence, and cooperation, and strengthening hands anymore. If for instance you don't even know who dawood ibrahim is and where he lives or why Indians want him, after all these years, then what is the point of strengthening hands? We need to speak to or try to bring in those with new hands.

Wipe the slate clean and start fresh. Let's re-imagine our neighborhood (just as everybody else has a righ to reimagine us if that is aboslutely important to them.)

That may be best for everyone. Give it 20 years. It can be done. And it will be no worse than the last 20 years.

I am an occasional lurker here. But if the account below is verified to be true in the basics, then it implies that Pakistani society needs to defuse groups like LeT and their parent political outfits so that they quit sponsoring such terror attacks. Maybe that is too much to hope for.

--
MUMBAI: It is improbable that Mohammad Ajmal Amir Iman’s family has seen the photograph that has made his face known across the world.

Hours before he began firing at commuters waiting at Mumbai’s Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST) last week, Iman, one of ten Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists, was caught on closed-circuit camera.

After he and his partner, Mohammad Ismail, had killed 55 commuters at CST and three senior police officers, including Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Chief Hemant Karkare, Iman was injured and captured — and the story he has since been telling Mumbai police investigators casts new light on how the feared terror group preys on the most vulnerable in Pakistani society to further its agenda of hate.

The man in the photo was born on July 13, 1987 at Faridkot village in Dipalpur tehsil of Okara district in Pakistan’s Punjab province. His family belongs to the underprivileged Qasai caste. His father, Mohammad Amir Iman, runs a dahi-puri snack cart. His mother, Noori Tai, is a homemaker.

Iman is the third of the family’s five children. His 25-year-old brother, Afzal, lives near the Yadgar Minar in Lahore. His sister, Rukaiyya Husain, 22, is married locally. Iman’s younger siblings, 14-year-old Suraiyya and 11-year-old Munir, live at home.

Iman’s desperately poor family could not afford to keep their second son, an indifferent student, at the Government Primary School in Faridkot past the fourth grade. He was pulled out of school in 2000, at the age of 13, and went to live with his older brother in Lahore. Afzal, who lives in a tenement near the Yadgar Minar in Lahore, eked out a living on a labourer’s wages, and could barely afford to look after his brother. For the next several years, Iman shuttled between the homes of his brother and parents.
Adrift

After a row with his parents in 2005, Iman left home, determined never to return. No longer welcome in Afzal’s home, he stayed at the shrine of the saint Syed Ali Hajveri until he could pick up some work. He began working as a labourer and by 2007 his work brought in Rs. 200 a day. Iman, however, found the work degrading. He soon began spending time with small-time criminals in Lahore. Along with a friend, a one-time Attock resident named Muzaffar Lal Khan, Iman decided to launch a new career in armed robbery.

On Bakr Eid day in 2007, Iman has told the Mumbai Police, the two men made their way to the Raja bazaar in Rawalpindi, hoping to purchase weapons. In the market, they saw activists for the Jamaat-ud-Dawa — the parent political organisation of the Lashkar-e-Taiba — handing out pamphlets and posters about the organisation and its activities. After a discussion lasting a few minutes, Iman claims, both men decided to join — not because of their Islamist convictions but in the hope that the jihad training they would receive would further their future life in crime.
A life in Lashkar

But at the Lashkar’s base camp, Markaz Taiba, Iman’s world view began to change. Films on India’s purported atrocities in Kashmir, and fiery lectures by preachers, including Lashkar chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, led him to believe that the Lashkar’s cause — the greater glory of Islam, as the organisation presented it — was worth giving his life to. It is possible, an official involved in the interrogation suggested, that the atmosphere of the camp gave him the sense of family he had lacked for much of his life.

When he returned home for a two-month break after his indoctrination at the Lashkar base camp, he found a respectability within his community and family that had eluded him most of his life. Where Iman had earlier been seen as a burden, he was now self-sufficient — and bore the halo of religious piety.

Later that year, Iman was chosen for the Lashkar’s basic combat course, the Daura Aam. He performed well and was among a small group of 32 men selected to undergo advanced training at a camp near Manshera, a course the organisation calls the Daura Khaas. Finally, he was among an even smaller group selected for specialised marine commando and navigation training given to the fidayeen unit selected to target Mumbai.

According to Iman, Lashkar military commander Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi promised that his family would be rewarded with Rs. 1.5 lakh for his sacrifice.

Re: # 154
beena, i'm not threatening annihilation.

the stupid boys with their stupid toys dont realise that due to prevailing winds, any nuclear exchange will carry the fallout from any nuclear attack over the entire breadth of india, harming us more than it would harm you... quite apart from the atrocity such an attack would be.

i'm just saying, as a Wagah Border Candle Holder through conflict after conflict, as a person supporting detente through peace process after peace process, that I have reached the end of my tether. it's just too much. yes, your fragile democracy is under stress but it MUST move on this. but then again, any agreement to any indian demand would just strengthen the hands of your moronic opposition. and the fauj is, after all, in the wings, waiting to take over.

A conversation with a paki on “unity, understanding and cooperation� against common enemy

Hinjew: Yo paki, my neighbor, my homie, how are things?
Paki: Don’t call me that.
Hinjew: Don’t call you what?
Paki: Don’t call me Homie. I am a muslim and islam forbids me being homie with hinjews, as mentioned in Hadith 13.9 and…
Hinjew: yeah, whatever. Look, paki, we have a serious problem here – your yard is full garbage and is a breeding ground for all kinds of vermin…your vermin is affecting the entire neighborhood… And your house is full of garbage too… Dude, this is very dangerous for you and everybody else….

Paki: How do you know what I have in my house? You have been to my house? When did you go to my house? Why did you go to my house? Did you ogle at my wife, you hindu bastard?
Hinjew: Relax dude, your wife wears a burkha, I haven’t even seen her face, ever... Are you sure that’s your wife, she is big and walks like a man…
Paki: yeah, that’s her.
Hinjew: OK look, you have to clean up all the garbage, fumigate the entire area…
Paki: No can do…
Hinjew: Why not?
Paki:You don’t understand, first we need to have unity, understanding and cooperation.
Hinjew:Perfect, I am all for it. I will help you clean up - this will cost you a bunch. Do you need money?
Paki:I have money.
Hinjew:No you don’t, you are flat broke. I will give you money, and you clean up the garbage and fumigate the area. That NWFP corner of your yard, you should start there, that place is full of big time vermin…
Paki:No can do.
Hinjew:Well, then I will be happy to do it for you. Uncle Sam who lives across the big pond is ready to help, he has those big machines, big paki-whac…,I mean, big vermin-whacker machines... It will take no time…
Paki:No can do.
Hinjew:Why not?
Paki:You have to give me access to your apple orchard on the northwest corner of your yard.And give me some water from your taps, too.
Hinjew:What? What does that have to do with anything?
Paki:Well, these vermins affect me too.
Hinjew:Yes, more reason why you should clean up or let us do it for you…
Paki:No can do. We need to have unity, understanding and cooperation.
Hinjew:What? Man you are nuts.
Paki:Yes, of course, I am a muslim.

#147:btw didnot mean to imply that beenasarwar's reply had blackmail component, just the pak fauj's position.

...all past incidents engineered by the ISI will come to light...

#151 by tahmed32

e.g. no doubt you will find mention of this clown Dawood in pakistan if you google.

tahmed32 sahib, Dawood may not be well known to the ordinary Paki, but does that even matter? The fact that matters is that he is known to the men who matter. But has Pakistan ever come close to admitting it? The ISI has used him to provide logistics, resources (and perhaps finance) for terrorist strikes inside India. Even western intelligence agencies know that. But because he has been so useful to it, Pakistan is not willing to cough him up. And if they do, then all past incidents engineered by the ISI is come to light. The ISI is truly in a bind. But that has been of its own making and it will have to face the consequences of that.

#153 good questions. all i am saying is that the indian government should make it easy for Zardari to respond, not more difficult - and give due recognition to the threats pakistan is facing from taliban/alqaeda (while dawood and co are non-entities in what can be safely called the battle for pakistan against the terrorists).

please see what beenasarwar is saying in #154. she is putting it very well. i have to do some work now. cheers.

Re: # 150 - "if the status quo remains, then a less diplomatic government will come to power"... on both sides. Which is why it's important not to weaken those who are currently there. We have to realise that we can't go to war. We have to find better ways to express our rage than threatening to annihilate each other.
Re: # 138 - My friend, "the distinction between the Army's dictatorship and Zadora’s democratic rule" is not just "stuff to discuss over tea". It is at the heart of the conflict we are facing in Pakistan. It is real, and it is dangerous. Our future lies in the civilian government eventually winning.

Beena, tahmed32 sahib et al,

OK guys, leave aside the perpetrators of this ONE attack. What about their leaders and mentors who lead them down this destructive path? I ask why are Maulana Masood Azhar of the JeM and Hafiz Mohammad Saeed of the LeT still roaming free? AFAIK, the latter is still known to rail against India during his fiery Friday sermons? How long are these folks going to remain free? And what signals does that send to India? How can Pakis still expect to be taken seriously?

#149 Aha_Snark bhai: in that case there is no issue. i am all for the rule of law. lawless individuals are nobody's friends (not even their own).

harish #135 we have, sir, a confidence gap. you suspect everything i say as having some nefarious purpose, find loopholes in what i say. e.g. no doubt you will find mention of this clown Dawood in pakistan if you google. what i am saying is that he is nowhere close to being a prominent figure in pakistan. similarly, i referred to what the US is doing in response to mumbai, and you refer to drones (which is a different story). Look, I am not looking to create a Delhi Sultanate or to plant the crescent and star flag on lal qila. all i want is to have a safe and peaceful region in south asia.

keep this in mind when you read what i say, and perhaps you will find it less suspicious.

Re: # 142 & #141
i dont think she's blackmailing anyone. imo she's a honest interlocutor. she's also right imo to the extent that those who attack Pak in NWFP are also allied with those who attacked India in mumbai

be that as it may, beena, there has to be _some_ give - some movement -- it's going to happen one way or another. if the status quo remains, then a less diplomatic government will come to power.

Re: # 144
Tahmedji, i'm not saying arrest and punish dawood's daughter. i'm just saying that there should be an active investigation into his whereabouts, including questioning his relatives. is that not what happens or should happen in any crime?

Re# 141

Beena,

I did not equate Zardari with Hitler, at all.

I'll repeat my last line:

"It (India) will have to take on whoever wields power in that unfortunate country—-whether his power is legitimate or not is a superfluous question at this juncture."

In other words, making a distinction between the Army's dictatorship and Zadora’s democratic rule might be terribly good stuff to discuss over tea, but to India it's of no use.

The Army, even now, is the real power behind the throne, and it's just a matter of time before it actually, again, gets back physically on the throne. Real democracy in Pak is as remote a possibility as

And the Muslim League's and independent Pak's history give me no reason to believe otherwise.

About war:

Well, even I’m a bit undecided on that. Engaging with the Pak Army would be quite useless and would actually end up helping them and, as you say, the terrorists.

Maybe, strikes inside Pakistan by the India Army a la what the US is now doing. Of course, bolna ek baath hai, aur karma ek.

#143: "there you went again..the blackmail component of the reply...its always there."

Dash, the problem is, quite apart from the blackmail component (which is quite clearly there) there is the reality as rf786 pointed out that the only realistic option is to work with the civilian government. It's a miserable situation all around, I agree.

#142 no one "deserves" to be attacked the way innocent people were attacked in mumbai. we need fewer rambos, and more responsible government in Pakistan and in India.

#141 well said again, beena.

#139 Aha_Snark: I dont think "assuaging rage" by presenting innocent people (i.e. relatives of crooks, who are considered innocent unless proven otherwise). Musharraf went down that road, 3000 innocent (or at least innocent since not proven guilty) people disappeared - and the terrorist leaders were getting stronger than ever even as Musharraf was trumpeting these kidnappings as "capturing terorrists" and getting paid for it!

I agree Zardari should respond to the list - but he should go through a reasonable legal process for extradition. Not just pick up some scapegoats to make everyone happy.

Re: # 141 "because in this lies the survival not only of Pakistan but also of peace in the region and beyond"

For a moment when I was reading #14 I thought yeah some sense, but it had to happen - there you went again..the blackmail component of the reply...its always there. Ever present. Like Banquo at the banquet. That ghostly apparition is there - meant to scare the living day lights of the world.

Funny thing is the world buys this. but as albright's interview of today shows, people are slowly refusing to buy this.

Re: # 140you heard the phrase with the words soauce goose gander etc......life sucks, and its sucks big time.

seriously, if the GoI buys this line, then the Indians deserve everything that is coming their way.

Re: # 138 - I would hardly equate Zardari with Hitler who was himself behind the atrocities and aggression of the German State. The civilan government of Pakistan has inherited a massive problem. It is trying in its own bumbling way to deal with it because in this lies the survival not only of Pakistan but also of peace in the region and beyond. To sound the war drums is only to play into the hands of the terrorists who want nothing more than chaos and conflict.

DD #134 "Something has to happen from the Pakistani side. Else, GoI should dissolve itself "

That is like a child saying "Do this or I'll hold my breath and turn blue". I am saying the GOI can do better than that.

Re: # 126

yes, tahmedji i agree that Al Q / Taliban are the ones that benefit the most from India-Pakistan tension. But my country is not run (as much) by fiat, there is vast domestic pressure to produce results. Things just cannot stay the same anymore. If they do, then the pressure will be released by the Sangh riding back to power... with results that i think Pakistan will like even less... and Al Q will like even more. If you want Indians to compromise, compromise along with us. Give the god damn moderate government something to assuage the rage that India is feeling. Give us peaceniks something to work with - because we can't even mouth the words that we used to proclaim from the rooftops.

No dawood? Fine. Arrest anyone related to or associated with dawood in pakistan - including, for example, his daughter, his son-in-law and others - and allow indian intelligence to question them.. IN pakistan. Would that be ok?

"Let's step back from the anger and the nationist hype and distinguish the military establishment of Pakistan from the people. The elected civilian government that represents the people is ranged against the army and - as well as against the same terrorists that India accuses it of harbouring"

Beena,

Let us, for a moment, accept this.

But, how much independence does Pak's civilian government have vis-a-vis the Army?

In my opinion, not very much. It's only due to the situation in FATA now and Mushy's numerous blunders that the Army is lying low.

It is only a matter of time before the Army raises its head again. The DNA of Pakistan leaves no other way out, I’m afraid. Zardari's helplessness with the ISI chief is only a sign of things to come.

To give you an analogous example, Hitler was never properly elected by his people (Enabling Act et al), but the allies fought Germany and the German people none the less. There was no other way out.

Of course, this example doesn't necessarily mean India will have to fight Pak, but that it can't get into woolly-headed debates over who represents the people of Pak.

It will have to take on whoever wields power in that unfortunate country—whether his power is legitimate or not is a superfluous question at this juncture.

Re: #52 Posted by rf786 on December 2, 2008 1:14:35 am

rf bhai,

It appears that you are in agreement with my thoughts as well, to a certain extent, maybe?

[In a nutshell, what u r recommending is a full fledged invasion of Pakistan, this can be achieved only by an international force allied with Pakistan army...]

Yes, the key is that Paki military should invite this new friendly international force in helping pakis take control of their own territory. Actually, maybe for once the tribal belt could get integrated to the civil society, and put to rest claim made by Afghans are their geographical territory.

Just like Lebanon asked the Syrians to come in and clean up the Lebanese society.

[Will it work?] It could work real well, if and only if, the punjabi paindoos are made to realize that their brand of global and international politics has no future. Up until now, it is the punjabi politicians who continue to promote this brand of international jingoism. Their financial support is of course KSA.

Breakup of Pakistan is not a solution. Making the Pakistani bureaucrats understand that the way forward for Pakistan and its people is more in line of a civilized people. Pakis must start hanging a few dozen of the leadership of these gangsters, and you will see how fast these people will tow the line towards civility.

[Is it likely to happen? Maybe not, world has other problems to take care of and there are many other moving parts.]

But pakis are the root cause and the tree trunk of this mance. This is the curse on pakis of all brands and shades, and the world must help the unwashed masses.

basically, what I am saying is that if India buys this line being put out by the GoP and their spokesperson every where, GoI does not desrve to govern. The Indians do not deserve to govern themselves.

#121 by tahmed32

On Dawood etc. (of whom I hear about only from indians while no one in pakistan even knows who these clowns are) please see what i put in bold from the extract from the Financial Times in #89.

Now tahmed32 sahib, you're caught here. Please read the following by your compatriot Ghulam Hasnain on where Dawood lives and what he does:

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsSept2001/coverstory2.htm

For writing this, the poor chap was abducted by the ISI guys and tortured for 3 full days. That news was prominent too. Please search google if you have to.

As for your question on what the Indian government should do, I think the answer is obvious - do what the US government has done so far.

tahmed32 sahib, I do not know whether you're being disingenuous or simply naive. Even as I write this, Predators drones armed with hellfire missiles are hovering over the FATA (and as per recent reports, even over the settled areas of NWFP) scanning the mountains below for their next target. If this isn't a gross violation of Pakistan's sovereignty, I don't know what is. Are you sure you aren't advocating this road for the Indians?

The Indian government is simply blowing hot and cold - pointing fingers one day, making unreasonable (per #89) demands the next day, and then saying the obvious i.e. there is nothing that india plans to do militarily - which is not saying much given that such an attempt was made in 2001 by india and failed.

You keep bringing this up as if it was some sort of a victory for Pakistan. In the aftermath of the build up, Musharraf promised to ensure that Pakistani soil wasn't used to engineer terrorist attacks in India and to whatever extent, he did manage to do that. But then, you're either pregnant or not, so you're either honest or not. Pakistan did not keep up that promise fully, so I hope India ensures that it doesn't happen this time.

Re: # 132 Tahmed32 happened before...and it went back to the same situation. the same-same equation comes into play. ZAB, BB, NS, Mush...its been played before....once, twice okay. third you are a fool, fourth time you deserve. Fifth time, .....you cannot even protest...that is India's situation.

Something has to happen from the Pakistani side. Else, GoI should dissolve itself and the Indians right to govern themselves should be removed - to be replaced by the old Mughals or the Goras.

Re: # 120 thanks you for this. But pray, tell us what is it that GoP is doing? can it do anything? As Tahmed32 said, the insubordination by a lowly DG of an agency of the lected Govt, its PM and President is unprecedented in the annals of modern governance - other than in banana republics (which Pakistan is not).

The GoP has no guts, the world has no guts. So I guess, the world has to carry on seeing young pakistanis driven to commit suicide and take a few 100 heathens and pagans with them. you got to be joking right!

DashDot #130 see #121 below. Far from saying India should do nothing, I am saying it should channel its justified anger into doing the smart things. Namely, taking up Zardari on his calls for cooperation the way the Obama basically did yesterday. While Zardari's words cant be vouched for, it does seem that he sees it in his interest to have India on his side rather than snapping at him as he takes on terrorists inside Pakistan.

#120 Beena: Well said. I have been trying to make the same point.

Re: # 126 tahmed32, that is precisely why I asked for your recos on confidence building measures. I mean, no one trusts the other - remember the same-same equation.

So what do you suggest is the way forward...apart form the suggestion you made asking India not to do anything?

Please sign the petition for better treatment of our commandos�

I was saddened to see how poorly our commandos were trained and equipped. Please sign and pass on to your friends.

Thanks.

Mahesh

http://www.petitiononline.com/mnop1234/petition .html

Re: # 120

Beena, i salute you for the brave and difficult task that you undertake. I'm not speaking as a nationalist or as a jingoist, i'm just speaking as someone anguished at the utter lack of dividend that negotiations and talks with pakistan have given to india.

Evidence has been provided time and time again, and EVEN IF IT HASNT, whose responsibility is it to take care of people heading armed groups inimical to India that are headquartered in Pakistan?

i do distinguish between the people of pakistan and the state of pakistan. but unfortunately, maintenance of a "peace process" is chimeric. If you had to characterise a chimeric peace process, how else would you characterise it other than the one that is currently taking place?

Re: # 32
Welcome back!

"altaf hussain on the other hand is trying to provoke Al-Qaida to engage them in Karachi; or may be it is just his gastric gas"

No, he made many provocative statements challenging Taliban/Al-Qaeda etc. Every now and then, he orders his dogs to do what is happenning now. He has serious gas problems.

#108 Aha_Snark: good to see you on chowk, albeit like Halley's Comet (once every 70 years).

I am not calling for evidence about terrorists inside Paksitan - as Zardari said yesterda on the FT "Who do you think the Pakistan government is fighting in FATA?"

What i am saying is to not fall into what may well have been the purpose behind the mumbai attack, namely to get india-pakistan tensions started, thus distracting the Pakistan Army, under civilian government, from cleaning up the terrorists (after whom it had been using planes and tanks, and whom it had steadily pushed back from one terrorist base after another that had been created under Musharraf).

Re: # 122 That is precisely the point many seem to forget. The value of introspection - for that is the final hurdle before fascism becomes nirvana.

However, what we are all forgetting is that it is the final word of god that is providing the certainty. Once you bring in this, whither man made artefacts.

Re: # 28

New York Axeman says:

"Try to figure out how to stop the massacre in Karachi...

With Tafa Londonwallah on MI-6's payroll, what do you expect: Mohajir-Pathan intermarriages?

Re: # 118 very reasonable. But have pity on us jobles wonders....we need to do something with our daily lives ;)

They dont need our commiserations I agree. But they need our understanding - like Gilani and the FM says. You need to understand that the DG ISI is his own man and he does not take kindly to suggestions. You need to understand the the LeT is an independent organisation committed to do social work on par with the Edhi and all members are almost Mother Theresa like.

Come on aha_snark you need to understand the situation!

#117

There is no value to this presumption of certainty, faultlessness, perfection in any human artefacts. Period. In politics, it leads to fascism. It happens to be undemocratic in its essence.

Harish #110: On Dawood etc. (of whom I hear about only from indians while no one in pakistan even knows who these clowns are) please see what i put in bold from the extract from the Financial Times in #89. Hope that explains.

As for your question on what the Indian government should do, I think the answer is obvious - do what the US government has done so far.

That is, I think the US government is playing it exactly right - instead of making sabotaging the civilian government in Pakistan (like the unthinking geniuses in india are busy doing), it is strengthening his hands by noting Zardari's call for cooperation and calling for follow-up to this by Pakistan. (even President-elect Obama did precisely this yesterday in announcing his security team - Obama noted Zardari's call for cooperation and said he would look forward to follow-up. This weakens militarists, strengthens the pro-democracy forces in Pakistan.

The Indian government is simply blowing hot and cold - pointing fingers one day, making unreasonable (per #89) demands the next day, and then saying the obvious i.e. there is nothing that india plans to do militarily - which is not saying much given that such an attempt was made in 2001 by india and failed.

Let's step back from the anger and the nationist hype and distinguish the military establishment of Pakistan from the people. The elected civilian government that represents the people is ranged against the army and - as well as against the same terrorists that India accuses it of harbouring.

Here's a follow up piece:

INDIA/PAKISTAN:
Pleas For Sanity as Sabres Rattle Over Mumbai Mayhem

KARACHI, Dec 1 (IPS) - The pattern is all too familiar. Every time India and Pakistan head towards dialogue and detente, something explosive happens that pushes peace to the backburner and drags them back to the familiar old tense relationship, worsened by sabre-rattling war cries from both sides.
The relationship between the two nuclear-armed South Asian neighbours has been marked by tentative ups and plunging downs, particularly over the past decade. This decade is also marked by increasingly vocal voices for peace on both sides of the border who openly criticise their countries’ political and security establishments.
The fallout from the Mumbai mayhem is no different, if all the more ominous for having taken place in the midst of the global ‘war on terror’ with its ‘us versus them’ rhetoric that has contributed to escalated violence around the world and pushed fence-sitters onto one or other side...

Complete article at
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=44915

Re: #17
"An Israel couple was killed in cold blood. A perfect reason for IDF to take out Paki nuke facilitie"

The New York Axeman again! I can see why he is so vocal about his community's finance managers. May he enter the John and never leave (just like...).

Long live Pakistan AND (un-corrupted) Islam!

Re: # 112

sorry shmorry bullshit. they don't need our commiseration. and i don't care if they do need it. we need to cut our damn losses. shut this entire freakin website down. no more talk. no more freakin conversation, attempts to find some sort of dialogue. no more manifestoes delivered from flagpoles astride the border. tell me, dash_dot, tell me o Indians and Pakistanis, tell me of a single benefit that accrues to India from maintaining any kind of relations with pakistan.

Re: # 114 yeah, I unerstand it. Take for example #115. An acceptance of internal failure is taken as a negative-fault rather than a positive-fault. Hence the balme for the massacre is on the Indians and no one else.

But it is this certainty which one has to admire. Maybe take some aspects of this certainty, without losing the ability for introspection would benefit India.


Or is this certainty misplaced?

Re: # 15
"First Pakistanis create the problem and then expect the whole world to get together with them to solve it!"

Think again, greencard-holder. It is NOT Pakistan that created it.

What are Pakistanis (I don't mean ex-patriots here) sulking over? We should have taken Indian RAW fully cooked for their involvement in nefarious activities within Pakistan.

Many Muslims lost their lives in the Mumbai attacks but the lives of foreigners are more precious I guess. Look at the joint-investigation picnic being enjoyed by the agencies. And they all want the ISI to come to this one-dish party too!

Now read THIS:

http://newsx.com/story/37022
Indian Navy admits to fatal "systemic failure"

Dash_Dot #104

{{losing face, aleph, is a concept which the aristocratic have in bucketful - something which rulers have.}}

Well, this might arguably be true for Pakistanis of Dispossessed Munghol background, who see themselves as disinherited 'aristocrats', but this aversion to losing face by conceding any sort of fault or error seems to be quite as strong for those Pakistanis who are of more humble background, as witness chacha tahmed32.

I speculate that there is something else going on here, and it comes from Islam. It seems that when Islam goes to someone's head (and it seems to go to many Pakistanis' heads, sooner or later), he comes to see himself as morally pristine, immaculate, without blemish or fault, and a person with unusual knowledge and insight. To use a crude metaphor, he becomes a sort of Quran incarnate - complete, perfect, the last word, without any internal contradictions, profoundly perceptive, unerring and authoritative in his insight. He has no human superiors and hardly any equals.

The only appropriate activity for such a person is to give moral sermons to lesser beings from atop an exalted pedestal. He should certainly not be placed in a postion of moral and intellectual inferiority with respect to idol worshipping Hindoos with their primitive mindsets.

Re: # 111 touche - aha_snark....you have me there.....hence I said nothing changes. I like the phrase/equation "same-same". I am almost tempted to occasionally recycle the old interacts...by picking a random selection ith the constraint that they be atleast 2 years old.

And BTW what does garu mean?

Re: # 108 actually I feel sorry for the nation and country and the common folk - they been hijacked beyond repair. they have institutions running wild in the country - where there is serious insubordination of the Govt, and you have organisations which are basically running wars on behalf of the nation - which the nation does not know about.

This is a sad sad situation.

After the insubordination by the ISI chief of the President and PM of the country - would any one take these two people seriously. I wonder.

The outcome of Condi Rice's visit is much awaited, though.

Re: # 109

perhaps, dash_dot garu. I would say that my once-in-2-years screeds are far outweighed by your regular posts on this website. And to remove confusion, on this forum, I'm aha_snark - shankar is someone else (though it is my name IRL)

Military strike against Pak terror camps an option: India

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mumbaiterrorstrike/Story.aspx?ID=NE WEN20080074968&type=News

Tahmed32 sahib, time and again, you keep telling us how India should strengthen the hands of democratic forces in Pakistan. What exactly should India do? Condone terrorist attacks emanating in Pakistan?

Just why should India do it? For a change, how about Pakistan handing ove wanted terrorists like Dawood Ibrahim, Syed Salahuddin, Maulana Masood Azhar and Hafiz Mohammed Saeed?

Maybe India will then think of reciprocating by "strengthening the hands of democratic forces in Pakistan".

Re: # 105 shankar, there is no point in these long screebs. Nothing will change. It will be the same forever and ever.

Re: # 106

But dash_dot garu, the thing you need to remember is that there is none so blind as those who do not want to see.

Tahmed ji, What would you consider "clinching evidence"?

#83 by Goldfinger

Once again yaar GF, the report you cp-ed in your post #57 talks about Zaka, an organization who collect dismembered parts of Jewish victims to accord them a dignified burial. They are by no means military/ballistic experts and they are in no way qualified to say with certainty about how the Jewish victims died. The Israeli foreign ministry official said as much in the report I cp-ed in a previous post.

As for this post (#83), again the Israeli officials are jumping to conclusions. What those commandos encountered only they can say for sure, not even an Indian Army official (when asked) offered any comments on it, because he said since it was the NSG that was handling the response, only they were qualified to comment on it.

Tahmed32 - here is proof ifyou want it....The Times reports today
(a) father of gunam found in Pakistan
(b) paid by the pakistanis (though the chanda boxes ofcourse and the wahhabis in soodi)

check it out yourself : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5272189.ece

I have also posted the video links etc and the article on UP!

NOw you cannot say there is no proof! Heck the guys are caught with their pants down!

bah. Your empathy and grief are appreciated but are of little comfort.

The State of Pakistan cannot control the heavily armed groups with independent agendas in its own borders. That's tough luck for Pakistan but its really pissing off when those guys attack or abet attacks on India.

from MJ Akbar's piece

http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/02mumterror-pakistan-will-have-to-pay-a-h eavy-price.htm

///I have been an editor for 35 years from the age of 23. From that time on, since the days of General Zia-ul Haq, I have been hearing 'Pakistan is asking for evidence'. We asked for withdrawal of their support to the movement for Khalistan, they said, 'Oh, we don't know anything about it.' On Kashmir, they kept repeating where is the evidence. Benazir Bhutto [Images] came, she asked for evidence. Nawaz Sharif came, he asked for evidence. I think Pervez Musharraf [Images] asked for less evidence. Now again, they are asking for evidence.
There is a terrorist in Mumbai, captured and arrested. How much more evidence do you want? If what he is saying is not evidence, then how can you get more evidence?////

Seriously, Beena, what in the world do you want for evidence? What will convince you? God damn it, you guys have screwed up so badly, so so badly, that even a dyed-in-the-wool peacenik, a Wagah Border Candle Holder such as I, think that if even one terrorist attack can be stopped by completely embargoing Pakistani people, completely cutting off all travel between India and Pakistan, it is a price well worth it.

Just be done with it. Stop this feeble, flaccid attempt at a rapprochement your government is too impotent to bring about. Stop all the trains, stop the flights, stop anyone with a Pakistani passport from visiting India.

The Pakistani state maintains what importance and position it has in the globe by ransoming it's OWN implosion against money, arms and credit. The entire world must make concessions, must bend, must sway and quiver, just so that Pakistan doesn't implode and take the world down along with it.

If the state fragments, let it. Bit by bit, Pakistan has leeched every little bit of goodwill, even from people trying their best to be understanding and accomodative. If pakistan fragments, as it will unless it takes on the people clothing themselves with impunity in the flag of Islam, we and the world will have to deal with your nukes. And hopefully we shall, at that time.

I'm seriously trying to think of one advantage India accrues from maintaining diplomatic relations with Pakistan. The iran pipe dream, sorry, pipeline? Bah. better to build an entire LNG plant in Iran and convoy the gas to India on a fleet of tankers.

And divided families, personal relationships, marriages, etc? Too freakin bad. Just close the borders, withdraw every single delegation, just stop pretending that this basket case of a country can ever be of positive value or use.

Forget giving you evidence of your wrongdoing. That hasn't worked ever. From the assassination of Liaqat to the assassination of Benazir, at virtually the exact hosed-down spot, byzantine intrigues and laughable police procedures have shown us all very clearly how valued any kind of evidence, valued by any rational person, is in Pakistan.

On the other hand, if you want things to become better, YOU prove it to us. Stop messing about and give us Masood Azhar, connected or unconnected though he may be to this attack - as a gesture of goodwill. Hafiz Mohammed Saeed. Sayid Salahuddin.

But you never will, because your parasitic, grotesque agencies would be compromised by the intelligence they would give us.

So, without any further ado, go to hell. And tell them we sent you.

Re: # 98 losing face, aleph, is a concept which the aristocratic have in bucketful - something which rulers have. This is something you need to understand. For the aristos reduced to penury, this "losing face" thing is even more degrading than anything else. (If you recall the old novels set in the 1700s and 1800s england - bankrupt aristos used to disappear from soceity etc etc ).

The world has to give due recognition to this, elese they will see more troubles

Re: # 89
bluffer32...
yeh dawood was not in pakiland but his daughter was getting married to former paki captain javed miadand...and now that partner in crime is chairman of selection commitee....

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsSept2001/coverstory2.htm

as soon as US put that islamic bast*** in it's fugitive list, dawood vanished from pakiland and it's media...but his property in karachi etc... is thriving....

Re: # 98

Right on... pakis want everybody to take them at the face value, even though they have no credibility, or capability to make things happen... neither they are willing to show some good faith actions at the outset to show the world that they can indeed make things happen...

In fact, the very mention of these basics throws them into a fit and makes froth them at mouth...

Re: # 84 sabji becareful, you will soon be fired from your post for this defaming of your superiors, in such a posteriori manner....

seriously what you say is true. In fact if it was a white GORA or even a gora wannabe like the japs or the chinese the same ISI chief would be running to that capital leaving a yellow trail behind him.

Basically, it is the old we were rulers of these pagans sndrome raising its ugly head.

I mean - zardari cannot even make his ISI chief make the trip to india - something he publicly promised as part of his "cooperation" rhetoric.... that's a direct violation of an executive order - so what the fk kind of control his "govt" has on pakiland?...

So I don't know why mullah32 shrieking like a freak on this "cooperation" thing... it's dead on arrival...

Tahmed32 sabji LOL at your comment below. You know, you still have not provided that list. The ramblings do not count.

for your benefit, I post it again here

Tahmed32 sir there is not point in getting all flustered and angry.
Topic started by Dash_Dot on Nov 30, 2008 2:36:19 am
You need to understand the mistrust between the two countries. So what do you suggest India and Pakistan do to improve their mutual trust.

Can you list ten items, with a time line, and perhaps dependencies between them and also subsequent points for some of those you consider important!

There's nothing particularly mysterious about the reaction of the Pakistan 'government' (to the extent that Pakistan can be said to have a government) or the reaction of Pakistanis like tahmed32. Haven't we seen it all before? These people are delinquents who expect infinite patience, tolerance, 'understanding' and sympathy for their delinquency. They do not want to lose face, be disgraced in any way; instead they expect people to cover up for their bad behaviour and not describe it accurately. Nothing in their past record indicates that they have desire or the ability to change.

kaal

oh, we understand it very well - entire paki system is setup to be anti-indian: right from the textbooks to the army formations... so taking orders from indians is last thing they would want to happen...

This "working together" rhetoric all pakiwash... it's coming from civilian "govt" which is basically a bunch of politicians with no control over anything that happens in pakiland... in fact, I fully expect zardari to be assasinated very soon - just for suggesting the "cooperation"...

if pakis really want to "work together" against jihad - first thing they have to do is to show some "good faith", establish some credibility: hand over known jihadis to india... you have do that yankees, why not for hanoods?... if you want cash for that - we can arrange that...

Otherwise it's all big talk... But we know it ain't happening... I mean, do you think paki army will handover their operatives just because zardari says so?... LOL... it's just posturing on part of pakis...

mohar, Pakistanis may be more willing to listen to accusations from others but not from India, although the impact on India is the greatest.

May be it is something psychological that we don't understand...we need to find out. Even if it is a pyschological challenge, we might still be able to cooperate, reliably. We just need to find out how...

Saala chutiya paki - how else are you going to "fight terrorism" together if you would not capture known terrorists running freely in your country?... It's not "unreasonable" demand, but that's the first step in the process...

Saala chutiya paki - how else are you going to "fight terrorism" together if you would not capture known terrorists running freely in your country?... It's not "unreasonable" demand, but that's the first step in the process...

yep, nobody should blame pakiland for terrorists, even though terror attacks anywhere in the world almost always finds a connection in pakiland... pakis and their stupidity knows no bounds... :)

Anycase - it's all academic, paki "govt" has no capability to make amends, even if they want to... it's upto US, India and the World pwoers to team up and find solutions... first step is to - starve the beast: cut off funds to paki army...

Is it just the fact of India 'demanding' anything that upsets Pakistanis? What is the issue here?

Some of those on the list are Indians, living lavishly in Pakistan, and are clearly accused of violence in India. Why keeps Pakistan from returning just those?

tahmedji

That list (or most of it) was given first in 2001 after the attack on Indian parliament.

What do you find so stupid in that?

Typical example of the stupid Indian attitude - making unreasonable demands while seeing Pakistan government attempts at joining hands in fighting terrorism as a sign of weakness.

India demands Pakistan hand over suspects
By James Lamont in New Delhi and Farhan Bokhari in London
Financial Times, December 2 2008 10:05

...Mr Mukherjee said his government was seeking 20 of India’s most wanted terrorists.

�We have asked for the arrest and handover of those persons who are settled in Pakistan and who are fugitive of Indian law,�

The request, made on Monday night, is the first sign of the intense pressure that India is expected to exert on Pakistan, following the Mumbai attacks, which Indian authorities blame on Pakistani militants. The suspects are possibly linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba.

But few consider the New Delhi’s demand realistic since the militants are on the run and possibly not even in Pakistan.

The list includes Dawood Ibrahim, who is held responsible for the 1993 bomb attack on Mumbai; Masood Azhar, believed to have been behind the 2001 attack on the Indian parliament buildings; and Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, the founder of Lashkar-e-Taiba."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8d2a46dc-c058-11dd-9559-0000 77b07658.html

OK, other than omprakash bhai and tahmed ji, who else would have made a better commando or their leader than the current sorry crop and achieved more? :)

Eklavya: please dont split hairs.

GF #83: while india's efforts were badly planned, at least they were directed correctly - i.e. towards saving lives. i am more worried about the fact that the ISI chief refused to go to India (to put it bluntly). Any other nation, and the ISI chief would have been fired for insubordination.

tahmedji and harish

A correction: There was no such headline. It was part of a newsitem as reported in the Times of India. Some others might have picked it up and turned it into headlines, but that's unlikely and not many times.

-----------------

rf786, I think we agree that whatever cooperation is sought must be based on strict conditionalities and some reliable means of verification. How that can be done seems difficult to figure out. The attitudes, at least on chowk, do not seem to be any different than they have been before. :(

-----------

shoib, that may be true from the Indian point of view but Pakistanis don't see it that way. And we surely won't be able to resolve that in time to solve any problems related to terrorism! :) :)

One of those things that one simply accepts, recognizes, and moves on without seeking agreement from anyone.


-----------

Yaar goldfinger, we have one HP and that should be enough. Now, cool down.

om prakash #75 agreed. while the pictures of commandos rapelling down the helicopter made good displays, the fact is that they accomplished nothing - the idea behind a hostage situation is to save hostage lives. The good thing is that at least the minister resigned, and there does seem to be questioning of the way the entire situation was managed. So there is still hope as the situation unfolds.

harish_hyd, also this:

www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/nov28mumterror-rescue-efforts-badly-planne d-says-israel.htm?zcc=rl

India's rescue efforts badly planned, says Israel

November 28, 2008 21:52 IST



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• 'Moshe was very thirsty and scared'


India's rescue efforts badly planned, says Israel

Israel has slammed the rescue efforts being undertaken by Indian security forces, to combat terrorists in Mumbai, terming them 'premature and badly planned'.

Israel had offered to help India to resolve the hostage situation in two luxury hotels and a building inhabited by Israelis, but their offer had been turned down, reports The Times.

Israel defence official believe that the security forces had failed to gather sufficient information about the situation before storming the three places under siege, states the report.

It added that the commandos, in their haste, had probably risked the lives of the hostages.

"In hostage situations, the first thing the forces are supposed to do is assemble at the scene and begin collecting intelligence. In this case, it appears that the forces showed up at the scene and immediately began exchanging fire with the terrorists instead of first taking control of the area," the paper quotes a former official in Shin Bet, the Israel Security Agency, as saying.

Israel Defence Minister Ehud Barak has also conveyed his concerns about the safety of Israelis trapped at the Jewish Centre in Nariman House, to the Indian government.

The operation at Nariman House continues with gunshots and explosions being heard at regular intervals. The number of terrorists or hostages inside the building is not known.

The report added that Barak had also offered assistance to National Security Advisor M K Kelath Narayanan.

Re: # 61

Like I said before, Mush & Co were playing the old double game, give just enough but retain your security pact with the extremists, Pak armies second line of defence.

Times have changed both politically and economically, Pakistan no longer enjoys the luxury of having time on their side nor do they have the domestic or external resources to sustain a hardline position. Having said that, if we were to take North Korea as an example, then it is completly possible for a hardline group to occupy the seat of power and disaccoiate itself from the rest of the world. Thus my emphasis on supporting the current civilian setup with increased pressure on the military establishment, that should yield results when all external financing is strictly regulated with condionalities on eliminating this scourge of extremism.

“We in Pakistan understand and share the pain, anger and grief of the people of India, as we are also victims of terrorism including daily suicide bombings in one part of the country or the other�

This sentiment of Pakistan and India being essentially in the same boat is extremely touching and, as far as terrorism is concerned, is to a large extent true.

Where the two countries diverge is the reason why they are in the same boat.

The very genesis of Pakistan lies in an exclusivist ideology—a land for Muslims.

One only needs to read the text of the 1940 Lahore resolution to fathom this.

And once you’ve let out this monster its tough to rein it in. Some other chap might pop up after a few years and say this is a land for only Sunni Muslims. Other people might argue that since Ahmedis don’t “fit in� they must be outsiders in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The Islamic pie will become smaller and smaller till people will actually start defining nationhood on even narrower terms like excluding groups on the basis of language—a Bengali premier would be unacceptable to the nation.

The terrorists attacking both India and Pakistan have this same exclusivist ideology.

India did not start out like that and in spite of numerous efforts to the contrary has not ended up like that.

The pre-independence Congress has a number of fundamentalists in its ranks but they were always in the ranks. A socialist Bhagat Singh is more famous than his “Lost Leader� in Modern India. Of course, it goes without saying that India is far from ideal, but the people who want India to also adopt an exclusivist ideology a la Pakistan are still not in a majority in India.

harish #77 we could get into an endless argument. e.g., you question my use of the word "knee-jerk" about the indian finger-pointing at pakistan, and i could remind you that the indian FM started making Pakistan the issue even while the terorrists were exchanging fire. i could add that the sole terrorist is in the custody of indians and so what he "confessed" to is suspect. i could further add that even if the terrorist was pakistani, that does not call for equating him with Pakistan as a nation. and so on.

or you can try and take an objective look at the substance of what i wrote - namely, that instead of sabotaging the efforts of the elected government to join hands with india in this common fight against terrorists, the indian government could have (and perhaps still can if it wants) turn this into an opportunity to strengthen the hands of the forces of law and order and democracy in Pakistan.

Live TV broadcasts did an incalculable damage but then we are a visually oriented people who would rather trade lives for a good drama. For the same reason, bollywood (& variants) reigns supreme and the security and political response to these terrorist attacks shows that bollywoodization of our culture and polity is complete.

Re: # 57 harish_hyd...please peruse the following cut-paste regarding israeli hostages falling to commandos bullets:

www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/02mumterror-nar08-israeli-hostages-fell-to-comm andos-bullets.htm

Israeli hostages fell to commandos' bullets?

December 02, 2008 04:13 IST
Last Updated: December 02, 2008 04:56 IST

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Close on the heels of controversy arising out of Israel's criticism of Indian forces' handling of the hostage crisis during terror attacks, the head of an Israeli rescue and recovery team in Mumbai has alleged that the Indian commandos may have inadvertently killed one or more hostages at Nariman House, a media report in Jerusalem said.

'Based on what I saw, (although) I can't identify the type of bullets in the bodies (of the victims), I don't think the terrorists killed all the hostages, to put it gently,' Haim Weingarten, head of the six-member team of ZAKA, voluntary organisation dealing with rescue and recovery, told The Jerusalem Post.

Speaking on phone from Mumbai, Weingarten told the Post that all the six Jewish and Israeli hostages found dead in the Chabad House were killed by either gunshot wounds or shrapnel from grenade blasts, or both, and that he didn't know who threw or fired the grenades that wounded the hostages.

Although lacking forensic tools to determine the time of death, Weingarten said that his team's observations led him to believe that 'some of the hostages were killed on Wednesday (when gunmen first entered the building), some on Thursday, and some on Friday morning (during the start of the commando raid),' the report said.

ZAKA officials believe that in a final act of love, the director of the Chabad House, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, wrapped the body of his wife Rivka in a tallit (prayer shawl) before succumbing to his own wounds during the final hours of the siege, it said.

The volunteers on the scene found the bodies of Israeli grandmother Yocheved Orpaz (62) and Jewish Mexican national Norma Shvarzblat Rabinovich (50) bound to one another with a phone cord

#74 by tahmed32

first, it wasnt just one newspaper headline, but also the indian government and politicians knee-jerk finger pointing at Pakistan.

Please note it wasn't knee-jerk at all. The terrorist captured alive was caught on Wednesday night and it wasn't until Thursday noon after interrogating him that India hinted at the possibility of Paki involvement. If there is Paki involvement, there is Paki involvement. Why should India hide it? If it turns out to be false, the Indian govt will lose face, so there are risks involved in tarnishing someone else's name without concrete evidence.

while emotionally satisfying, it is intellectually stupid of the indian government to treat Pakistan as a monolithic entity and define it in terms of the very islamic extremists that the pakistani people overwhelmingly voted against.

Listen tahmed32 sahib, I can understand that the Paki govt may not be in total control of the situation, but your record doesn't exactly inspire confidence amongst Indians. Dawood Ibrahim is a guest of the Paki establishment for over a decade now and continues to be so. Despite several requests nothing has been done about it. Maulana Masood Azhar, the Jaish chief and Hafiz Mohammed Saeed continue to roam about free and deliver fiery speeches targeting India. Yet, you do squat about it.

by creating india-pakistan tensions, the terrorists seem to have successfully (at least for now) taken pakistan's focus away from chasing them down in fata.

That was only to be expected. But should that stop India from placing blame where it rests?

Beena,

A cool-headed piece, like all your pieces!

In this entire episode, the Indian response has been characterized by showmanship & stunt, from the NSG commandos rappeling down from a helicopter to Pranab Mukherjee delivering dramatic dialogs, damn the consequences. This is all about drama and looking good on TV and not about accomplishing anything.

#72 harish_hyd: first, it wasnt just one newspaper headline, but also the indian government and politicians knee-jerk finger pointing at Pakistan. the brits had a policy of "divide and rule". while emotionally satisfying, it is intellectually stupid of the indian government to treat Pakistan as a monolithic entity and define it in terms of the very islamic extremists that the pakistani people overwhelmingly voted against.

second, what happened is exactly as i said - by creating india-pakistan tensions, the terrorists seem to have successfully (at least for now) taken pakistan's focus away from chasing them down in fata.

Re: # 69
dm...
yeh, you are correct...
there is no point going for any dialogue etc. when the govt. itslef lies outrightly....Europeans and US wants pakis to stop creating nuicense for Indians and even threatens in the name of WOT...but to the core pakis wants to see the downfall of india....

DM, pakis used to boast that the mumbai criminal is in karachi to create more trouble for maharastrians...but after his name is included in international fugitive list, pakis deny that Dawood Ibrahim is in pakiland....to the core they are terrorism/islam loving....

the problem has to be dealt with internal resources (it is very difficult. when water gushes through a hole, it is easy to put cap in the source side than the other side...the cost might be little higher, if we try to prevent it in the other side...)....

#71 by tahmed32

If a mere newspaper headline in India is enough to force the Pakistan government to backtrack on its decision to send the ISI chief, perhaps to call it a "government" would be a travesty. What happened to all those sentiments Pakis were expressing that Pakistan was fighting terrorists for its own survival and not at the behest of the US or India or any other country?

DM#69 "Before any meaningful cooperatin can take place between India and Pakistan"

this is exactly the kind of indian attitude that strengthens the ISI and undermines efforts of the civilian government. Zardari offers to send the ISI man over to india to help build such cooperation, and indians (Times of India) turn around and start crowing about he is being "summoned", while indian politicians start their usual anti-Pakistan chorus. Thus giving militarists in Pakistan exactly the ammo they need to sabotage zardari's efforts.

Re: # 52
rf...
that will be the last thing india desires the fate of pakisthan to be...US and european countries can take any action, as it do not cost them anything, other than diplomatic problem......
US has the fire power to destroy Pakistan from Aircraft Carriers and Submarines...


buba...
When Pakis attacked Bongs ( including moslas), who sufferred most? India.....the huge refugee influx etc. etc.....

Before any meaningful cooperatin can take place between India and Pakistan, the ISI must come under civilian control. As long as the army is calling the shots in such matters in Pakistan and as long as ISI is part of the army and as long as the ISI or elements in it are supporting terrorist outfits targetting India, there can be no real cooperation between India and Pakistan in security matters.

As for Indian reaction in asking Pakistan to surrender Indian fugitives to it, it is another of those "ab ke maar" threats. As hamidm points out, they are really empty gas and Paks ignore it as mere stink which will go away by itself after a short while.

Re: # 66
muthu anna,
it is impossible to stop such acts...

Re: # 60
ekal...
a lot of people were sympathetic to Jinnah as well....but the garbage can he had created is stinking beyond tolerance....it is not only the people of neighbourhood, who are suffering.....

the core agenda of "secular" pakis (may be oxymoron) like that of HP etc... are not much different from that of jihadis....the best part is jihadis are cleaning semi-jihadis...when they clean up pakiland and march to the border, some Mirage & Mig combo and Su30 and Tu22 combo is enough....

paki armed forces failed in last 4 adventures and even lost 1/2 of the country...now entire country is behind jihadi setup to cause nuicense....I am not seeing any Paki ( though they claim pakis are brave people) favouring direct war (as per Geneva convention). Rather these brave pakis are favouring islamic jihad; use arms hiding behind civilian (or civilian installations) or targetting civilians....

first pakis used to target indian civilians to internationalise kashmir...now it is the foreigners of powerful countries...let us see...

And the whole cycle will be repeated after the next attack too.

that's right. we have seen the movie before..

The scene being replayed now is the demand for extraditing Dawood Ibrahim. I don't know if he has other sons to be married to Imran Khan's daughter this time..

Muthu,

And the whole cycle will be repeated after the next attack too.

Regards

maumdar dada, other than ranjit bhai (because of his trust in his sindhi connection) nobody in India appears to be optimistic. I am wondering if that same level of cynicism exists in Pakistan ....

1.I dubt that there would be any co-op or extradition from Pakistan.
2. No action will be taken by GoI.
3. Things will be back to business as usual in a weeks time.


I agree with all the above and would add a slight modification to 3.

3. Things will be back to business as usual in a weeks time, until the next attack which we can expect in January.

Kaal bhai,

1.I doubt that there would be any co-op or extradition from Pakistan.
2. No action will be taken by GoI.
3. Things will be back to business as usual in a weeks time.

Regards

Back to 2001

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/12/02/india.attacks/index.html

CNN) -- India has blamed "elements from Pakistan" for the attacks that killed 179 people in Mumbai and renewed demands for its neighbor to hand over wanted militant leaders.

External Affairs Minister Sri Pranab Mukherjee said Pakistan was originally given the names of those leaders after a 2001 attack on India's parliament that brought the South Asian nuclear rivals to the brink of war.

------------

rf786 bhai, do you think India could expect any cooperation on this this time round? It would be one signal of any change...

"refrain from drawing chut!ya conclusions"

Harish, we need to be more patient with people who would like to create a secular and democratic Pakistan. It is not easy to dream along those lines, and lashing out at India may be one way of keeping one's sanity intact.

Darn, I am already feeling better about HP - a lot more sympathetic! :)

And yaar GF, these are Israeli foreign officials talking, not Indian.

GF,

Even if what u r saying is true, the black cats wudnt have had to fire if they hadnt been taken hostages in the first place. I doubt if this fact wud be lost on the Israelis.

Regards

#56 by Goldfinger

Kulharee, unfortunately the Israelis are very pissed off...they say that the Indi Black Cat commandos were so pathetic and perforemd so poorly that it were in fact their bullets that killed most of the hostages rather than the terrorists...

Yaar GF, next time listen to both sides of the story and refrain from drawing chut!ya conclusions.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702391455&pag ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Excerpt:

"Charges by the head of the Zaka team in Mumbai reported in The Jerusalem Post on Monday that the Jewish hostages in the Chabad House may have been killed by Indian commandos, and not by the terrorists, infuriated the Foreign Ministry, with one official saying that these types of "irresponsible comments" can have serious diplomatic repercussions.

"How can they say such a thing?" one official said. "Did they do an autopsy, do they know what type of bullet caused the wound? Do they have forensic or ballistic expertise? This is not the type of thing you can determine just by looking at a body.""

Re: # 17 Kulharee says: "An Israel couple was killed in cold blood. A perfect reason for IDF to take out Paki nuke facilities."

Kulharee, unfortunately the Israelis are very pissed off...they say that the Indi Black Cat commandos were so pathetic and perforemd so poorly that it were in fact their bullets that killed most of the hostages rather than the terrorists...

rf786, despite the fact that I have a personal loathing for HP morality (or lack of it :)) - which is what PPP represents in Pakistan - working the civilian 'government' in Pakistan may be an option. I put that word in quotes because none of us (including you) knows what that government can or cannot do in Pakistan.

If one works with Pakistani 'government,' one must have very clear goals in mind - so one can tell if any progress is made, clearly and unambiguously, and we are not simply repeating old habits.

Knowing Pakistan better, what you recommend as some of the markers that directly affect India and India could use to know that working with the the Pakistani 'government' is of continued use? Would appreciate any thoughts!

Re: # 53

Harish

I know these words have been heard before but then again the alternatives are either not practical or worse play directly into the hands of these terrorist groups.

Zardari and company are genuinly trying to solve the problem unlike Mushy who played a double game. Unfortunately, we have politicians such as NS, Qazi and I Khan who sympathize with these extremist groups for obvious reasons. If this administration is undermined, these groups are waiting in the wings, once in power they will call off their dogs but only to show the world that they are in control, effectively there will be no change and events such as these will be repeated.

Restraint is required right now and try to ignore the jingoistic so called intellectuals, most of them are wedded to the old system that thrives on Indo-Pak rivalry.

It was just last year when BB was attacked in Karachi when 150people were killed and then we know what happened to BB, the real target. Give PPP some time and hope for the best.

#52 by rf786

Only practical solution, to support the current CIVILIAN administration and pressurize the Pak army to be part of the solution thereby allowing the civilians in operation cleanup.

Arif bhai, that is what the US (and India to a lesser extent) has been doing ever since 9/11 and the Parliament attack. After all these years, turns out that it hasn't worked. Now is the time for a different approach. What that would be, I'm don't know. But surely, the same old formula is not going to work.

Re: # 50

Bubba

In a nutshell, what u r recommending is a full fledged invasion of Pakistan, this can be achieved only by an international force allied with Pakistan army but at a great cost, human life and economically.

Will it work? The only end result from such an exercize will be the eventual dissolution of the country called Pakistan into maybe three, four or more separate entities.

Is it possible? Yes.

Is it likely to happen? Maybe not, world has other problems to take care of and there are many other moving parts.

Only practical solution, to support the current CIVILIAN administration and pressurize the Pak army to be part of the solution thereby allowing the civilians in operation cleanup.

"Another analyst, who declining to be named, suggests that South Asian countries band together for joint military operations in the areas known to be breeding grounds for militancy against the guerrilla groups operating in different areas in the region."

The only interesting thing that came out from this article, rest is rhetoric that we all have heard many timer before.

Hey dude, this is what I suggested for a few days now, and it seems that someone is reading Chowk, and articulating my pov....
----------------------
Rather than simply begging the Indians to show restraint, a better option could be to internationalize the response. Have the international community declare that parts of Pakistan have become ungovernable and a menace to international security. Establish an international force to work with the Pakistanis to root out terrorist camps in Kashmir as well as in the tribal areas. This would have the advantage of preventing a direct military confrontation between India and Pakistan. It might also save face for the Pakistani government, since the international community would be helping the central government reestablish its authority in areas where it has lost it. But whether or not Islamabad is happy, don't the international community and the United States, at the end of the day, have some obligation to demonstrate to the Indian people that we take attacks on them as seriously as we take attacks on ourselves?

Would the U.N. Security Council authorize such action? China has been Pakistan's ally and protector, and Russia might have its own reasons for opposing a resolution. Neither likes the idea of breaking down the walls of national sovereignty -- except, in Russia's case, in Georgia -- which is why they block foreign pressure on Sudan concerning Darfur, and on Iran and other rogue states. This would be yet another test of whether China and Russia, supposed allies in the war against terrorism, are really interested in fighting terrorism outside their own borders. But if such an action were under consideration at the United Nations, that might be enough to gain Pakistan's voluntary cooperation. Either way, it would be useful for the United States, Europe and other nations to begin establishing the principle that Pakistan and other states that harbor terrorists should not take their sovereignty for granted. In the 21st century, sovereign rights need to be earned.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/01/AR200 8120102438.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Re: # 45

HP sahib:

"...Is this an Indian government statement/position or your thoughts?..."

These are my personal guesstimates, based on how I see the Indian scene is. However, unpleasant the truth is, HP sahib, Zardari holds the weight of this moment. Hopefully, he is a leader in deeds as he has been in words.

You know the internal politics of Pakistan more, but I think if he prevails and matches deeds with words, and not succumb, Pakistan Army would find its place. Much like Bhutto put it in 70s.

Among the doom and gloom of teh world there are some positive indications coming from pakistan. The brave people of karachi are fighting the jihadis from the nwpf who have been systamatically moved to karachi by the army to provide the jihadis with targets to quench their blood thirst. Finall teh brave people of sindh led by atlaf is fighting back.

I expect teh army to move into karachi in support of the jihadis and that is when the real killings will start.

Long live atlaf hussain.

#45 by HP

The evidence is a different beast than "the whole world knows" story. That has no value.Things like this need evidence.
As far as Daud Ibrahim is concerend...Did India get to Interpol with that. I think w/o the Interpol warrant, chances are India wouldn't get Daud Ibrahim. Though personally I think there is no harm in sending that guy to jail.

1. India has shared this evidence with Pakistan, but your government and babus refuse to acknowledge it as genuine. So India has shared this evidence with friendly countries and they realize the gravity of the situation. That has in no small measure contributed to the perception of Pakistan shared by many western countries (even if they do little about it) and commentators who today recognize for a fact that the country is indeed the epicenter of terrorism.

2. Dawood Ibrahim DOES have an Interpol warrant issued against him, but again Pakistan simply refuses to acknowledge his presence and so the warrant is of no use here..

BERLIN: Germany agreed Sunday to forgive 40 million euros (51 million dollars) of Pakistan's debt in exchange for an agreement from Islamabad to earmark half that amount for health programmes.


The deal between the German and Pakistani governments and the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria was signed on the sidelines of a United Nations conference on Financing for Development in Doha, the German Economic Cooperation and Development ministry said in a statement.

..................

It is time for pakistan to seek forgiveness from all and sundry. I sympathise with the pakistanis, the poor people, where ever I see them, they have started telling..." sorry I am from pakistan..".

It will be such a humiliating experience to be a pakistani any where. Well in pakistan it is a tormented survival.

The good part is that sindh is firing up and are taking on the al quida elements who are trying to take over karachi with army support.

Attack on nato convoy..ethnic cleansing in karachi..how long the world have to wait for the pakistan..the problem to vanish

#41 Posted by anil
"Pakistan has about till March / April to act and show verifable results against these terrorists. India will act against these terrorists before its elections, if Pakistan does not act. Indian attack against these terror groups inside Pakistan is unlikely. This will divert Pakistani troops from the west, something the U.S. may not want. "

Is this an Indian government statement/position or your thoughts?

#42 Posted by harish_hyd
"Really? The whole world knows that in addition to Kashmiris, Pakis and Afghans have fought the Indian Army in Indian Kashmir. Many Paki commentators have written on this. It is only a few like you that seem unaware of this fact."

The evidence is a different beast than "the whole world knows" story. That has no value.Things like this need evidence.
As far as Daud Ibrahim is concerend...Did India get to Interpol with that. I think w/o the Interpol warrant, chances are India wouldn't get Daud Ibrahim. Though personally I think there is no harm in sending that guy to jail.

"Ordinary Indians are seething with rage and on television, asking camps in PoK bombed, even if it is at the cost of a war. God know what will happen if one more such attack takes place."

That is India's problem. I think ordinary Indian is right in asking why Indian State has failed to provide them protection or if not protection, at least a better response. It is shameful to see a cosmopolitan city like Mumbai had woeful Emergency services. After the train bombing that should have taken priority.

It is pathetic to see paki writers like Beena talking about indian intelligence department failures, suggesting that it is the role of pakistan to support teh terrorist while it is indias role to deter them.

It is onething for the indians to complain about their own govt failures, but pathetic to see the pakistanis alluding to indian failures while it is their own ISI sending teh terrorists to India.

They fail even to recognis that the hijackers of the indian plane was honoured by the paki media, they fail to accept that it was one such hijacker who went on to kill daniel pearl.

The Beens of pakisatn are the root of terror in pakistan by their diversionary tactics and their refusal to accept and condone the paki govt policies that support nd sustain terror.

The latest in this class is the declaration by the army of the masud terrorists as patriots,

Pathetic Beena,,,,pathetic.

...if you guys want us to take Zardari's statement seriously that like Indians, Pakis too are victims of terrorism..

#40 by HP

The Mukti Bahani in today's terminology would qualify as a terrorist organization which India encouraged and fully supported for subversion inside Pakistan. Did India ever apologize for its behavior? So expecting Pakistan to do that for Kashmir militants would be a delusion that can only exist in twisted Indian minds.

Apology? Where did India ask Pakistan to apologize for whatever happened? Indians have only asked you guys to shut down the terror infrastructure and hand over Dawood Ibrahim if you guys want us to take Zardari's statement that like Indians, Pakis too are victims of terrorism. Merely issuing statements of empathy while allowing Dawood to live a life of luxury and allowing Maulana Masood Azhar or Hafiz Mohammad Saeed is not going to cut it.

I'm not going to go into the history of the Bangaldesh war and events preceding it, but Pakistan could have made a similar demand. But either they were so overconfident or so busy killing Bengalis that they forgot to do so.

Indians have never provided any evidence that the militants that fought in Kashmir were not of Kashmir origin. So there is no reason to even bring that up.

Really? The whole world knows that in addition to Kashmiris, Pakis and Afghans have fought the Indian Army in Indian Kashmir. Many Paki commentators have written on this. It is only a few like you that seem unaware of this fact.

I have written that just a couple of days and ago I will reemphasis that the Mumbai drama as enacted provides a god send opportunity to Pakistan to begin a crackdown on these groups.

Better late than never. This attack is a clear line drawn by India. Ordinary Indians are seething with rage and on television, asking camps in PoK bombed, even if it is at the cost of a war. God know what will happen if one more such attack takes place.

Romair:

The chief minister said no Pakistani Government involvement. Pakistan has about till March / April to act and show verifable results against these terrorists. India will act against these terrorists before its elections, if Pakistan does not act. Indian attack against these terror groups inside Pakistan is unlikely. This will divert Pakistani troops from the west, something the U.S. may not want.

However, I will leave moving Pakistani troops to its troops away from the western borders as pure speculation. The U.S. and NATO may just as well want it. If Obama's election speeches carry some weight for actions inside Pakistan with surge in Afghanistan. Such an act will be very harmful to Pakistan. Therefore, my conclusion is that the most depends upon Zardari's hands how the events unfold. He truly can come out as the true leader and hero. His words let me that he can be the man of the hour.

India can be quite belligerent until elections, not by choice but out necessity. No party would want to look weak.

#18 Posted by KaalChakra

Expecting anything intelligent from Kaal or Aleph is like digging through the mud to find the diamonds. Though Tariq Fatmi on TV today was talking about the militant groups in Pakistan and their impact on the overall political picture in Pakistan, I doubt that there is anything Pakistan needs to do when it comes to India.

The Mukti Bahani in today's terminology would qualify as a terrorist organization which India encouraged and fully supported for subversion inside Pakistan. Did India ever apologize for its behavior? So expecting Pakistan to do that for Kashmir militants would be a delusion that can only exist in twisted Indian minds. Bangladesh was never a disputed territory but Kashmir is. Indians have never provided any evidence that the militants that fought in Kashmir were not of Kashmir origin. So there is no reason to even bring that up.

No two countries can develop future relations based on the past performance. I doubt that the US has apologized to Vietnam or even paid the restitution the US promised. I also doubt that anyone would expect any apology from the US on its atrocious behavior and totally uncalled for attack on Iraq.

Perhaps Japan is the only country that has apologized to several nations for its gross misconduct during the 2ww.

Leaving aside babbling indians, the militants have become a problem and Pakistan will now have to deal with them forcefully. I have written that just a couple of days and ago I will reemphasis that the Mumbai drama as enacted provides a god send opportunity to Pakistan to begin a crackdown on these groups.

the triggers."


I wonder how many terrorists people like tahmed32 made with their insightful, briliant, fair minded interpretation of islam showing their humanistic face to the believers, making them believe and be proud to be be muslims and at the same time pointing out incidents like gujarat ad infinitum, without any sense of proportion to make the gullible uneducated people consumed with rage at the unfairness of it all.

The favorite stick tahmeds beat India with "Gujarat Riots"
had the following information reported by Congress Govt to the parliament.

The government told parliament that 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed in gujarat riots.

Where is the sense of proportion? How many of its own citizens did the punjab army kill in east bengal? And how many times tahmeds bring it up? Or how many kashmiri pundits were driven out of their homes and made refugees?
Once you lose this sense of proportion you can be brainwashed into believing anything. Monsters are made by cunning people like tahmeds. The monsters themselves maybe simple minded. The real culprit is the moderate muslim who is educated.

an interesting news item:

"‘Initial probe shows no Pakistan link’

ISLAMABAD: Initial investigations have revealed that Pakistan was not involved in Mumbai terrorist attacks, said Maharashtra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh on Monday, as officials continued to resign in the wake of the attacks. The chief minister of the Indian state told reporters after a provincial cabinet meeting in Mumbai that the terrorists did not take anybody hostage at the hotels they attacked, PTV reported. The chief minister also said he had offered to resign amid widespread public anger over perceived intelligence and security failures. agencies" (www.dailytimes.com.pk)

Beena

If I was given a choice to choose between the maurading Khilafat-obsessed Afghans from North-West to an Indian conquest from the East - I will go for the Indian conquest -for a whole lot of historical, cultural & societal reasons.

So we need to stick to the war from the West - and relax on the Threat from the East.

regards

NHK

Re: # 19

Mian Masadi ji:

"...your future is very bleak..."

How about your future, why don't you talk about it? Next final prophet cannot be in it, right?

Re: # 20

Mian Masadi ji:

"...The Pakistanis understand this very clearly and they understand what the US is doing in Afghanistan,.."

Please do inform which Pakistanis have you not excluded?

On the 20th floor (of Hotel Oberoi), the gunmen shoved the group out of the stairwell. They lined up the 13 men and three women and lifted their weapons. "Why are you doing this to us?" a man called out. "We haven't done anything to you."

"Remember Babri Masjid?" one of the gunmen shouted, referring to a 16th-century mosque built by India's first Mughal Muslim emperor and destroyed by Hindu radicals in 1992.

"Remember Godhra?" the second attacker asked, a reference to the town in the Indian state of Gujarat where religious rioting that evolved into an anti-Muslim pogrom began in 2002.

"We are Turkish. We are Muslim," someone in the group screamed. One of the gunmen motioned for two Turks in the group to step aside.

Then they pointed their weapons at the rest and squeezed the triggers.


The preceding excerpts are part of the eyewitness accounts of Mumbai pieced together by YAROSLAV TROFIMOV, GEETA ANAND, PETER WONACOTT and MATTHEW ROSENBERG of the Wall Street Journal. These excerpts illustrate how radicals on both sides of the divide draw strength from each other to justify their unjustifiable acts of murder and mayhem of innocent people.

To read more, please visit http://www.riazhaq.com
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Kaal #18

I too looked at some Pakistani newspapers (for the first time in a couple of years - I'd given up on them in despair). The general attitude was to chide the Indian media for pointing fingers at Pakistan and to admonish us that terrorism was equally the enemy of both countries.

There was nary an admission or the slightest reference to the fact that jehadi terrorism has been nurtured on Pakistani soil for decades with the full knowledge and approval of that country's establishment. That is a tone which is reflected also in this Chowk article. If these attitudes are reflective in any way of civil society in Pakistan, it is futile for Indians to expect anything from them.

Since there is no definitive answer to the question who "really" is behind the Bombay attacks, a logical analysis would tell us that most likely it is Al-Qaida who funded and planned the attacks. I would give them that that it is a very daring and brilliant tactical military move. There objective could be to provoke India to accumulate its forces at Pakistani border thus forcing Pakistani miltary to abandon tribal areas and concentrate on Eastern borders. No wonder all the crusaders and their pimps in UN are begging India not to do that.

altaf hussain on the other hand is trying to provoke Al-Qaida to engage them in Karachi; or may be it is just his gastric gas.

Cheema sb,

majumdar ... masadi! ... trouble in paradise

Masadi sahib gives me an education. But not every educator is a Maulvi (like in Adamkhan sb's story).

Regards

majumdar ... masadi! ... trouble in paradise??

Masadi sahib,

Your explanation that rogue elements did it or that Pakistan did it for no goddamned reason just does not hold water.

Rogue elements, not the PPP Govt. And I think Tahmed sahib has given a reason in his cnspiracy theory. The other possibility is Pak Army to destablise the civilian Govt. But plausibly the former.

Have a nice day and get an education

Interacting with you serves both purpose!!!

Regards

Masadi Yaar, you are a friggin idiot who cant tell his ass from his elbow. First try to figure out how to stop the massacre in Karachi before trying to worry about bigger issues. What, you personally, have done to address the situation of ethnic riots in Karachi? Have you written to Dawn?

The US wants to carve a niche for itself in Western Pakistan, and India is playing along with that. The "dogcatcher" has outlived its usefulness, now they have a new one that will go the same way as this one did....

Your explanation that rogue elements did it or that Pakistan did it for no goddamned reason just does not hold water. At least I give plausible reasons for what I state.

Have a nice day and get an education,

TNI Masadi

Masadi sahib,

Are you implying that USA has staged this atrocity to get India to team up with NATO to invade and destory the Pak Army. But why would USA do so, why destroy and army which in Amin sahib's word is USA's "dogcatcher" in the region?

Regards

Invariably, violence around the world is intimately linked to the lack of genuine and free methods of redressal of grievances of the population.

I DREAM of a day of ...

1. ZERO TOLERANCE to CORRUPTION
2. ZERO TOLERANCE to COMMUNAL politics
3. ZERO TOLERANCE to fake ENCOUNTERS by policemen in J&K and bad JUDGES who provoke violence by the extremists
4. ZERO TOLERANCE to MISANDRY, and feminist politics
5. ZERO TOLERANCE to RELIGIOUS BRAINWASHING of young children

Kulharee writes "Yaar, you have Mohajirs killing Pathans and you are worried about my factory. Oh boy, we sure have our priorities straight"

When your gods system collapses many more than Mohajirs and Pathans will get involved, you can be damn sure about that, right now those a-holes are planning the destruction of Pakistan by conspiring with India. I have my priorities str8, you on the other hand have them where the light don't shine and as a result soon, very soon you'll get f'ckd.

Have a nice day
TNI masadi

Re: # 22

Kulharee, why are you after Masadi miaN who -- when everything is said and done, is far less crack-potted than the either HP or Yasser.

Masadi, of course I am worried about all of that, because I have all of that, you on the other hand should worry about what you have, a diseased empty brain. Please have it looked at. Get an EKG done on your brain, I will pay for the exam. Yaar, you have Mohajirs killing Pathans and you are worried about my factory. Oh boy, we sure have our priorities straight.

Re: # 20

Masadi miaN, are they still paying you your $5 per month book royalty?!

#18 Kaal writes "I don't know...."

Of course you don't. It was a plot hatched by the US (with probable Indian knowledge) to squeeze Pakistan. The Pakistanis understand this very clearly and they understand what the US is doing in Afghanistan, and they also realize the hypocrisy of the US in its reaction now (for its own ends) while when Pakistan accuses India there is no such reaction from them.

I say tell them both to go F themselves,

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

#17 Kulharee mark my words, your future is very bleak. Worry about your job, your family and your juice factory in the current economic mess created by your gods, rather than worrying about what Israel might or might not do. Hizb could make them pee in their pants, Pakistan is much bigger...

Have a nice day, your judgment is not far away,

TNI Masadi

I don't know. I just took a quick look at Pakistani newspapers online. Their approach and tone of their articles is shocking, to say the least.

I don't think we can expect any changes in or with Pakistan. There seems to be simply no appetite for any serious action against terrorists being brought up against India.

Instead of swift, permanent and verifiable of shutting down of Lashkar-i-Taiba and similar organizations, we can expect no action at all against them.

In that case, all these articles would have been a total waste. A tragic development, IMHO.

An Israel couple was killed in cold blood. A perfect reason for IDF to take out Paki nuke facilities.

(From The Washington Post editorial, December 2, 2008.)

Pakistan's Task
Peace in South Asia requires a crackdown on terrorists.

Tuesday, December 2, 2008; A20

WITH EACH passing day, suspicions of a Pakistani link to the slaughter of 174 people, including six Americans, in Mumbai grow stronger -- and more plausible. A captured terrorist has reportedly confessed to Indian officials that he received training in Pakistan from Lashkar-i-Taiba, a guerrilla organization that was nurtured by Pakistani military intelligence to fight India in the disputed Kashmir region. It has previously been linked to murderous attacks within India; Lashkar-i-Taiba was behind an assault on the Indian Parliament in 2001 that killed more than a dozen people and almost triggered all-out war on the subcontinent.

Indian security officials are being forced to resign for failing to foresee and prevent the Mumbai massacre, even as public pressure mounts for action against Pakistan. Whether or not the crime originated there, the outcry underlines some past failings of U.S. policy -- specifically, the paltry dividends from years of Bush administration cooperation with former Pakistani military ruler Pervez Musharraf. Mr. Musharraf promised strong anti-terrorism measures in return for the billions of dollars in U.S. aid he received. He even went so far as to ban Lashkar-i-Taiba and arrest suspected participants in the attack on India's parliament. This ban existed mainly on paper, however; Mr. Musharraf released the detainees, and the group, renamed Jamaat-ud-Dawa, resumed training under the cover of its charities and schools. It may actually be larger and better financed than it was seven years ago.

This is not to say that the attacks in Mumbai were Mr. Bush's fault. Nor is Pakistan's new civilian democratic government to blame. To the extent that Pakistan-based terrorists still enjoy support from within Pakistani military intelligence, those connections are shadowy and perhaps beyond the civilians' ability to control. Indeed, Lashkar-i-Taiba and whatever allies it still has in Pakistan's army are trying to stir up conflict on the subcontinent so as to undermine the new government and preserve their own power.

Nevertheless, India, which has the ability to strike terrorist targets in Pakistan, is rightly demanding an end to the threat -- and it's getting harder and harder for Washington to counsel patience. One positive signal, Pakistan's promise to send its military intelligence chief to India to help the investigation, has apparently been retracted, though lower-ranking officials may yet go. As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice put it yesterday while en route to South Asia, "this is a time for complete, absolute, total transparency and cooperation. And that's what we expect." She was, of course, being diplomatic. Pakistan holds the key to this crisis. The best way to salvage Pakistani democracy, and to prevent a slide toward war between two nuclear powers, is for Islamabad to shut down Lashkar-i-Taiba and similar organizations, swiftly, permanently and verifiably. Pakistan should enjoy U.S. support, both from this administration and the next, to the extent that it presents not only credible plans for accomplishing this goal -- but also tangible results.

I am glad that Pakistanis are sympathizing with India but it does not mean a thing till they follow their expression with real action AND STOP SUPPORTING TERRORISTS.

First Pakistanis create the problem and then expect the whole world to get together with them to solve it!

You don't have to go far. Check Chowk's unplugged to see how Muhammad's disciples are wallowing in their prophet's diarreha - Islam. They are happy at the gruesome killings of innocent.

btw, I read in Daily Times (sorry Rabia) that the ethnic tension in KHI preceded the bombay blasts. So slider was blowing smoke wrt RAW initiating revenge?

"it was a Hamid Mir column (only source), and it was an "unnamed senior army official", not the army spokesperson!
"

U are right on the spokesperson - it wasn't the official one, just some senior guy. But I did not read this in Hamid Mir's column, I read it in the news.com.pk as a headline story.

Re: # 10; kcs
[[May more power and unity be to the liberal, open-minded and humanity-loving people on both sides of the border. ]]

.... ditto

Beena, I appreciate your sincere article. May more power and unity be to the liberal, open-minded and humanity-loving people on both sides of the border. That is the only way the fundamentalist mentality can be vanquished.

neembu - the least you can do ignore the bigots, instead of salivating at the idea of reading their stuff. I hope you will also remember to ignore the bigots from the Islamic Fundamentalist Brigade :-)

Beena, thanks. You are a good person, and your sympathy is much appreciated in these trying times. Best regards.

A handful of Pakis may sympathize with the cyclic tragedy....most of they are crying crocodile tears......and jumping with joy on the inside like monkeys in a mangoe orchard....

"You can check the News - Pak Army spokespoerson is already calling Mehsud a patriot."
minor correction: it was a Hamid Mir column (only source), and it was an "unnamed senior army official", not the army spokesperson!