Pleas For Sanity as Sabres Rattle Over Mumbai Mayhem

I don't know about Mukti Bahini but Advani should be tried for murdering thousands of people.

Re: # 1140

No way the plebiscite will yield any proper results after the atmosphere has been so vitiated.

Ok, just saw those questions.

Romair, there is no equivocation.

If Mukti bahini did what LeT does, then it was a terrorist organization.

If Advanis does what Hafiz Saeed does then Advani is an outright terrorist.

Romair:

1. "what are your views on mukti bahani....do your consider it a terrorist organization?...."

Why just Mukti Bahnini, Manachem Begin, Bhagat Singh and many more who brought or were catalyst of change can be included. Yes, at the early stage they were all regarded as terrorists. Even Gandhi for not looking after his cows, and concentrating on the opposition to the British was held for sedition.

My point is movements, historically have stages, the question is did they win or loose. I am certain if those whom Mohammad fought, had prevailed, Mohammad would not have been the prophet. Obviously Mohammad won and forever changed 25% of humanity to this day.

You may believe these chickens who according to me, are producing rotten eggs, can win and be counted the category that includes the above.

I do not see that is possible. I see them as rearguard reactionaries, who are trying to gain power and influence one way or the other.


"...do you think it was able to succeed in implementing india's plan in bangladesh..."

The only thing it succeeded was in implementing its own ideology and used India opportunistically very well. Could it have succeeded if India was not in its neighborhood? I doubt it.

"... how would you compare it to LeT and kashmir..."

I would call LeT as mindless lunatics (I do not mean to hurt, but you asked me speak). I for one do not believe that even if they bomb every week people in Indian cities they will gain their objective. If there objective is total victory and complete rout of India from Indian Kashmir.

If they think these acts would help them gain international support, again they are mistaken.

All that they have done, as bollywood actor, Salman Khan said that they take young kids and innocent minds from Gurbat, and teach them wrong message. Now Pakistan has 200,000 of these trained people. If 1 million Pakistani army could not cross into Indian Kashmir, you think 200,000 Pakistani will be able to.

As an observer of Pakistan, I can say there have two leaders who really were trying to address Pakistan's problems. These are Musharraf, and Zardari. I know India would not want Zardari to fail, just as the U.S. would not either. Taliban may be handful, but LeT is 200,000 well trained. I am very surprised by Pakistanis delude that these 200,000 Pakistanis will only go into Indian Kashmir to kill and win.

"2. Mr. L. K. Advani could very well be the next indian PM....from what i have read in various indian newspapers, he is the person behind the ayodhya massacre.....how would you compare Advani to Hafiz Saeed?....."

I would call Advani a very shrewed politician. The man knew when to get on that Rath, and when to get off. Like a polotician he changes his position and has no ethics (I am not saying he is corrupt).

I have to read more about Hafiz Saeed, but he looks to me more like "my way or highway" kind of person. There is no room for such persons in politics for sure.

In summary, if some organization wins or prevails, it is not a terrorist. In today's world single-minded jihad will not work, as "end no longer justifies the means". The world is too complex from Mao's time. Also "power does not come out the barrel of the gun", Iraq was proved it for the doubters.

What is terror? From my little corner, terror is act committed against the innocents with all intentions to kill the innocents to make their point or settle scores with those who have power or perceived to have power.



"....if we assume that hafiz saeed masterminded the whole mumbai act of terrorism, and if we assume advani masterminded ayodhya, should they both be banned by un?....... what if hafiz saeed were to become the PM of pakistan?......how would that be viewed in india?

Please keep the above in mind and honestly answer where do you put, LeT and Hafeez? According to me, if he becomes a Prime Minister of Pakistan then the UN will not put it on the terror list. Till then at the very least jury is out to yes is a terrorist (for me), and for you (he is not a terrorist).

"comparison of mukti bahani and LeT"

The purpose of LeT: Break a democratic semi free setup and repleace it with an Islamic dictatroship.

The effect and purpose of mukti bahini: Break a dictatorial setup and replace it with a semi-free democratic setup.

(LeT = mukibahini) = moral idiocy

Pakis...

India occupies kashmir... china occupies Tibet... you pakis occupy balochland... so what?... occupation happens, so move on...

Sure, romair. Would be happy to help if you framed those questions more clearly. Are you asking if we think those are the same situations, or something else on your mind?

Anil #: "All I said that "ballot is more powerful than bullet".

... i believe this is what everyone from pakistan seems to be suggesting......hold a ballot and let the kashmiris decide (instead of subjugating them through bullets)

"I wish I know why logic of even some of the most rational Pakistanis stops on Indian Kashmir."

.....i think it is their rationality which leads them to this......they have rationally anlayzed the situation in south asia, and have come to the conclusion that it is the occupation of kashmir which is at the core of all the problems.....

what other problem is there between india and pakistan?....fishermen fishing in each other's areas?......lack of cricket?......

Eklayva/majumdar #: would be interested in both of your's objective views on the two questions, posted below, as well:

1. comparison of mukti bahani and LeT

2. what if advani became pm of india and hafiz saeed became pm of pakistan (assuming the former masterminded ayodhya and the later masterminded mumbai)

i have found it very difficult to get any objective views from any of our indian colleagues here (i am hoping you two will be objective and not nationalistic)......

Re: # 1139

Hamidm sahib:

All I said that "ballot is more powerful than bullet". Someone from your neighboring state of Illinois had said it. If Indians voting in elections during the British time, then you know what it can achieve. I wish I know why logic of even some of the most rational Pakistanis stops on Indian Kashmir. May be you have the answer.

Anil #: .....would be interested in your views on two items (kindly try to be objective and not nationalistic)....

1. what are your views on mukti bahani....do your consider it a terrorist organization?.....do you think it was able to succeed in implementing india's plan in bangladesh, through infiltration......how would you compare it to LeT and kashmir.....

2. Mr. L. K. Advani could very well be the next indian PM....from what i have read in various indian newspapers, he is the person behind the ayodhya massacre.....how would you compare Advani to Hafiz Saeed?......

if we assume that hafiz saeed masterminded the whole mumbai act of terrorism, and if we assume advani masterminded ayodhya, should they both be banned by un?.......

what if hafiz saeed were to become the PM of pakistan?......how would that be viewed in india?

...once again, kindly be objective.....

hamidm i agree muslims have to be better integrated in the state but when will u guys stop screwing us over?

Anil #: "India had seen the solution and it was corrected in 1971 (LOC), and may need minor correction here and there"

...your comment supports my whole point.....i don't see india budging from its stance on kashmir....there are 12 resolutions in the un, which india has violated for decades (this is the same un to which india has taken the case of LeT).....

nothing much has happened to india, due to these violations.....my feeling is that pakistan will also violate all resolutions related to kashmir, in some manner (be it related to LeT or to any other organization).....quite unfortunate....

"f you believe LeT can deliver Indian Kashmir out of India's womb, all I would say please think again"

...i am not sure how you concluded that i think LeT can deliver kashmir.....there is only one terrorist movement that has, "delivered" anything in south asia.....and that was mukti bahani......however, that was in the pre-nuke days......

i don't think LeT will succeed.......and i don't think india will be able to hold on to kashmir militarily, through state terrorism, either....south asia will remain stuck in this quagmire for ever.....

and the circle of state and individual terrorism will only increase in the region.......

"Afterall 55% Indian Kaashmiris went out and voted in the latest elections."

....what did they vote for.....they came out and voted because they want to ensure that the same horrific govt. isn't imposed on them.....

if however you are sure they voted for india, then why not ask them to vote in a plebescite for india.....would you be willing to agree to that?........consider it a challenge......

anil mian,

"55% Indian Kaashmiris went out and voted in the latest elections" ........

wah mian wah! ..... are you suggesting that since indians voted in all sorts of elections from 1909-1947 they wanted the british to stay on ? ......... why don't you let the kashmiris decide for themselves whether they want to remain part of india ..... sounds fair to me

Re: # 1135

Romair:

"....i dont see india ever agreeing to settling kashmir......"

India had seen the solution and it was corrected in 1971 (LOC), and may need minor correction here and there to honor what Nehru may have offered Dulles in 1950s.

The problem is that Pakistan blows hot and cold and see the solution then does not see the solution. India has to remain firm, and patient with Pakistan, and delink Kashmir's development from terror. Afterall 55% Indian Kaashmiris went out and voted in the latest elections. I do not know what has been the participation in Pakistani Kashmir or entire Pakistan for that matter.

If you believe LeT can deliver Indian Kashmir out of India's womb, all I would say please think again, and watch out for 200,000 LeT (almost of 20% of Pakistani army) all inside Pakistan. They can bring the role reversal and may decide not to remain non-state actors.

At this stage, Pakistani leaders need to be firm with such non-state actors who have admirers, supporters and believers in Pakistani army, judiciary and bureaucracy. The cancer may not look cancer, but may look the entire body.

Re: # 1128

Hamidm sahib:

Where was Christianity during crusaders period. Violence was indeed "tied" to the religion then. Most all belief systems go through this period of reform. When Islamic societies start producing more Hamidms, Tahmeds, Cliftons, Scouts and Salims than Masadis, HPs, to OBLs that is when you will see a change in that part of the world too. Till then it is your battle and has nothing to do with Indian Kashmir or horrible hindoos in Mumbai to Detroit. It might feel good to many like Masadis and HPs that now India got hit and Indian economy will suffer, or bring forward conspiracy theories. This ignores that your home is burning and I did not start the fire.