Pleas For Sanity as Sabres Rattle Over Mumbai Mayhem

anil #: "In summary, if some organization wins or prevails, it is not a terrorist."

...this is an interesting answer.....not quite what i expected....in my interactions with you, i have always felt that you support state terrorism, but oppose individual terrorism.......while i oppose both......which is why we can never agree......however this answer is different....

.......if success is the only criteria for who is and isn't a terrorist, then doesn't this encourage more terrorism.....e.g. one could argue that the reason LeT has been declared a terrorist organization is because it wasn't, "terroristic" enough.......i.e had it carried out more terrorism, it could have actually succeeded in separating kashmir and then would, according to your definition, have won and would not longer be a terroristic organization......

.....similarly, if the indian state forces start losing their battle in kashmir, they would be encouraged to increase their state terrorism, so as to come out a winner, and thereby not considered terroristic......

this seems identical to the approach taken by organizations that indulge in terrorism......i.e. they just need to win.....once they win, all their terrorism will be forgotten.......

won't this escalate terrorism, even further.......

" would call LeT as mindless lunatics (I do not mean to hurt, but you asked me speak)."

...i do not get offended.....and i agree with you....i think they are mindless lunatics....i don't support them (i don't know why you think i support them).....however, i think if one is to discuss them, in the light of terrorism, then one has to discuss the indian state terrorism, also....

" would call Advani a very shrewed politician. The man knew when to get on that Rath, and when to get off."

...i think on this one you have avoided the question......so i will ask again.......do you think advani is a terrorist (i.e. has he committed acts of terrorism in india).....

.....if he has, and he still becomes the pm, then would it be ok for pakistan to nominate hafiz saeed as pakistan's pm

...in any case, your answers have surprised me.....all this time, i thought you were somewhat of a misguided nationalist........it turns out you are, truly, a shrewd profit-loss businessman :).......

......if i understand your answers correctly, as long as one wins, anything is legal.....because one gets to define the rules, and history, after one has won......so advani's biggest asset is that he is winning......and LeT biggest drawback is that they have been losing (after winning initially)........

in any case, it is much easier to deal with shrewd businessmen than misguided nationalists.......so there is still hope for india and pakistan......

Yaar Borivili, it is hard not to sympathize with these innocent kids who became orphans for no fault of theirs. But at the beginning of the "Azadi" movement, with active encouragement from Pakistan, Kashmiri Muslims meted out similar treatment to the Pandits of the valley, who had lived with them as brothers for centuries before. Mosque loudspeakers blared out threats, asking them to leave the valley but leave their womenfolk behind. The Indian Army walked into Kashmir only after the movment had become violent and not a day before that. So the primary responsibility for the sad plight of these innocent kids lies with the Geelanis, Yasin Maliks and Mirwaizes.

borivili ji
Is there a country where muslims are happy, contented without any grievance?
Is there a community (hindus, jews, christians etc etc all are bad doing injustice to these innocent pious people)against which muslims dont have any grievance? For example, is there a muslim country where these believers are blissful? OK not blissful but just about happy? Fine, not even happy, let us say just satisfied?
Regards

BJ muslims aint leaving anywhere below is a sample your policies have created, dont create another 150 million:

Fighting in Kashmir gives rise to orphanages
Between 60,000 and 100,000 children in this state of 5.5 million people are thought to be orphans – including fatherless children with mothers too poor to care for them.
By Mian Ridge | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
from the October 22, 2008 edition

Srinagar, India - Gazi Abdullah, a gentle, articulate 11-year-old considers himself fortunate. He describes a life filled with friends, games of cricket, and top scores in math.

But it hasn't always been so. Without a trace of self-pity, he tells how his father was killed in crossfire between separatist militants and the Army when he was two years old.

"After that our home was not in a good condition," he says, alluding to the wretched poverty that he, his mother, and his sister endured for years.

Today, Gazi lives at an orphanage in Srinagar, Kashmir's main city, with 350 other children ages 6 to 18, more than half of whom are victims of Kashmir's 20-year insurrection against India.

Between 60,000 and 100,000 children in this state of 5.5 million people are thought to be orphans – a term here that refers to children who have lost their fathers and whose mothers are too poor to look after them.

Before 1989, when separatists began their uprising against India, Kashmir had few orphanages. Srinagar had just one, with fewer than 20 children. But today there are half a dozen large institutions in the city – and even more scattered throughout the Kashmir Valley.

"This was never part of our culture before all the violence," says Saifullah Khalid, the principal of the Muslim Welfare Society-run orphanage where Abdullah lives.

"Before, people would never have taken their brother's children to a strange place and left them there," he says, gesturing at the orphanage's bare, unfurnished interior. "They would have adopted them. But with the huge numbers of deaths, this became impossible," he says.

Kashmiris have responded generously to the plight of orphaned children by donating to the orphanages, "especially at Ramadan," says Dr. Khalid. This orphanage, like several others here, receives some funding from the Indian government that allows the organization to give monthly bursaries to several hundred fatherless girls, which allow them to remain at home and in school.

"And we do what we can with these boys," Khalid adds, briefly pressing his hand to his heart, "to give them the love and affection that they miss from their families."

Nighat Shafi Pandit, a well-known Kashmiri activist and chairwoman of the Help Foundation that runs schools for orphans and other poor children in and around Srinagar, says that at the height of the conflict in the mid-1990s, there were days when up to 100 people, mostly men, were killed.

She regrets that the government did not give more support more quickly to the widows these deaths created that could have allowed their children to remain at home.

"We shouldn't have needed orphanages," she says. "Uprooting a child from its home and environs can cause terrible damage."

The bombings, shootings, and disappearances that punctuated daily life in this Himalayan region – once described by the 17th-century Mughul emperor Jahangir as "paradise on earth" – have abated somewhat in recent years.

Last year, violence in Jammu and Kashmir dropped to its lowest level since the insurgency began. There were fewer than 800 politically related deaths in 2007, compared with 4,507 in 2001, according to the Institute for Conflict Management in Delhi.

But some 600,000 Indian troops still remain based in Kashmir, and their presence is deeply resented. In recent months, Kashmir has seen some of the largest protests against Indian rule in years. On Oct. 11, thousands of Muslims took to the streets to protest the visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. At least two people were killed.

Last year, the aid group Medicins Sans Frontieres (MSF) found that in some parts of the valley, 1 in 3 Kashmiris had lost members of their extended families to the conflict and a similar number had contemplated suicide.

With few state resources here for such people, individual altruism is often the only source of help. Kiswar Ahmed, a psychologist from the northern state of Himachal Pradesh, makes yearly visits to Kashmir. She works as a volunteer therapist with orphaned children.

When new children arrive at orphanages, "they are scared," she says. "Scared of strangers, scared of the dark, scared of everything."

She says that Kashmiri children tend to have "a very strong religious faith that grounds them and gives them some security." But she adds that thousands more need professional therapy than receive it.

But some children, such as Gazi, find a way to move beyond the conflict. If he had stayed at home, he would almost certainly have left school and taken a job. But he has a longer term goal: to study hard enough to become an engineer. "Then," he says, "I can look after my mother and sister."



Jammu & Kashmir Yateem KhanaChana Mohalla, Chhatabal, Srinagar, J&K, IndiaE-mail: jandk_orphanje_sgr@yahoo.co.inPhone (from US): 011-91-194-247-1707

#1211 by Aha_Snark

The state of Pakistan knows how to crack down - in the past, it's cracked down on students movements, the left parties, the baloch, the bengalis - with absolutely no mercy.

That Anirudh bhai is because those movements were against Pakis state itself and the groups you mention have had absolutely no support from any of the organs of the state. OTOH, the LeT, JeM and the Paki Taliban have been midwifed by the Paki army/ISI itself and even though they may have sometimes gone after state functionaries and the army in the tribal areas, they overwhelmingly are oriented towards external enemies: India in the case of LeT and JeM and US/NATO forces in the case of Paki Taliban. The Paki state thus sees them as allies, not enemies. So where is the incentive for them to take serious action against these outfits?

Re: # 1209 eklavya

That's a very difficult question - what Pakistan can do in this situation is also intimately tied in with how it handles its current state of affairs - from taxes to education, basic health services, transport (except the excellent Motorways) - it's pretty dire, wherever you look.

Things the pakistani government can do:

1. use simple triangulation to detect the source of all illegal TTP FM radio broadcasts and bomb those transmitters. Do NOT tolerate the dissemination of anti-state propaganda and crack down strictly on it when it happens. The state of Pakistan knows how to crack down - in the past, it's cracked down on students movements, the left parties, the baloch, the bengalis - with absolutely no mercy.

2. Issue a presidential ordinance that makes it a crime punishable by a long jail sentence for any person or group in Pakistan to commit, plan to commit or abet the commission of any act of terrorism anywhere in the world. Visibly and publicly close the camps down and publicly counter anyone who says that terrorism is justified if it is against the Indians.

3. strongly clarify that those who fight against GoP, behead Pakistani soldiers and carry out bomb blasts in mosques and public places cannot be called "patriotic Pakistanis" because of rumours of an Indian attack that they will help repulse. Authorise only one or two government spokespersons for internal security and external security. Maintain message discipline, ensuring that no government minister or functionary goes on record on these matters other than the spokespersons.

4. considering how badly the PPP has treated the PML(N), this may be very difficult, but form a joint consensus with the PML(N) on measures that can be taken to purge, in a concerted but gradual process, the government of elements that will, ultimately, turn out to be hostile to the GoP.

#1207 Posted by Aha_Snark

Excellent post. The fact is that India certainly can do more but with people like publius on both sides, chances are less will be done. My opposition is to negative actions but I think both the US and India have decided to stay positive and that hopefully will go a long way in improving the situation.

Pakistan still needs to come down heavily on the religious fundos and parties like JuD but things take their own time. Through this crisis, so far, the political government in Pakistan has gained and hopefully the Obama admin will maintain pressure to continue to strengthen the civilians in Pakistan.

aha_snark and dm ji

Seems, dr manmohan singh has apologized to the nation, the UN has placed sanctions on LeT, and Pakistan has asked some LeT leaders to stay inside a house and promised to try them if India gives evidence.

Have you gentlemen heard of anything else that Pakistani state has done or can do?

aha snark#1207:

Excellent post!

Re: # 1117 publius

Since Pakistan is already engaged in a proxy war with India, morally the point is moot.

Uh, no. The point is not ki they bomb bus stations and temples and kill lakhs (generous estimate) so we cut off the water for 15 crores.

Not to mention that as it stands right now, Pakistan is in such a bad state that it can barely stand up and go to the loo without the threat of someone taking the gaddi in a coup while it's gone, let alone form and execute a coherent national policy on anything. The damn state can't enforce a single-dish policy in weddings, can't collect tax, can't run schools, needs an Ehtesab Board _for_ the Ehtesab Board, has an army that is only popular when there is threat of war... has (i am told) 10 hours of loadshedding in the metros. it doesn't have money to pay for gas to run power plants. THIS is the face of an implacable, united enemy pursuing a coherent policy of proxy war?

Proxy war was in full force up to jan 2002, and we had been fighting it from the days of Khalistan and before. Please look at the figures of violence in Kashmir before and after the date; our own army agreed that there was such a decline that some years ago they said some formations would be exiting bases in Kashmir.

Until the Amarnath land lease fracas, everyone was talking about a return to peace, tourists from 24 Parganas were going there in loud muffler-wrapped groups, things were definitely not reminiscent of a war zone.

Yes, the State of Pakistan needs to ensure that training camps which train people to commit terrorism in India are closed. If their colossal Punjabi egos will let them admit it, they will realise that this is a fantastic opportunity to get rid of a lot of groups that, in the end, will support the overthrow of the Govt. of Pakistan.

But GoP can't even ensure that a dump truck doesn't just ride through a restricted area of Islamabad and explode itself in the driveway of the Marriot!

Legally we should examine all creative legal theories, ( and I am not an expert here), say Pakistan's state sponsorhip of terror , to withdraw or violate.

Why? If your objective is destabilisation, are you telling me that _by itself_ the Pakistani state is not doing a superb job of destabilising itself? It's reaping the bitter harvest of decades of petrodollar obscurantism. Its own politicians are so opportunistic that each and every one of those sorry bastards has *called* for coups when out of power. Nawaz did it, Benazir did it, and people are already starting to forget how bad Mush was and are calling for Kayani to "do his duty".

Even if India wanted to destabilise the state, do you really think we can do a better job? And is it worth the costs of treaty violations? Right now, we have tremendous international capital, we're way way past the stage when the world used to hyphenate us with Pakistan. The instant we start violating treaties, every single account of Pakistani perfidy will have to contain the information that India has also violated international convenants, dragging us down to their level.

And for what? Action against India has united India. The mere fear of an Indian threat united the Pakistani parliament against us. What guarantee do you have that direct action against Pakistan will not unite the entire country - the media, the people, the parties, the militants, the army - against us?

A predominant majority of these people are indirect participants in Pakistan's war against India. Some by actively supporting Jihad, some by denying that it even exists. There is a level of moral culpability there( not equal to prime movers, of course , but it is there). So a level of punishment is morally justified.

I disagree. Please read the wikipedia entries on Genocide. Serioulsy, do it. The first step to genocide and crimes against humanity is to consider a particular group of people, a whole chunk, collectively responsible and therefore worthy of collective punishment.

You've just stepped down the same path that the jihadis did, by saying that people sipping coffee in the Leopold were somehow responsible for Godhra, for Kashmir, for the Babri Masjid. That a hardworking taxi driver was responsible. That a guy who even gave the bastards water when they were thirsty were responsible. That a rabbi and his pregnant wife are responsible for Palestine. That the newborn children and their new mothers in the damn maternity ward in Cama Hospital are responsible.

I understand your rage; I feel it too. Assume that India had attacked a terrorist camp in Pakistan on the 1st of december. By now, would the GoP have banned JuD? Arrested and held the people named in it? Are you seriously trying to say that our missiles would have made them run for cover and go underground like they are doing now? We would have MADE THEM INVULNERABLE IN PAKISTAN. There is no fucking way that the UNSC would have banned JuD, Hafiz Saeed and the others. and moreover, we would have provided the best recruitment poster for LeT and JuD. People would have flocked to join their ranks.

Yes, I feel your rage. Ours is a just rage. But look at the story of Ashwatthama, of righteous rage gone horribly wrong - that story tells us that out of righteous rage can come horrible crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashwatthama

I don't say that there should be no military move against Pakistan ever, that there is no red line that we should not cross. However, I happen to believe that our diplomatic service is pretty darn good - in most deals we drive very very hard bargains. With the amount of international sympathy we have on our side, I see stringent sanctions for Pakistan if it can be shown that they are *not* banning terror groups. If there is another major attack that can be traced as clearly to LeT/Pakistanis, the entire world will support military action against the camps in Pakistan.

Please ask yourself. would any military action we had taken put the GoP on such a back foot as it is now?

Secondly in situations based necessarily on collective like these it cannot be an absolute crieterion that no innocent person ever get hurt.

Of course. No one is saying that our missiles will kill only the guilty. The fact that innocent people will suffer is guaranteed in any military action.

But there is a difference between weighing and considering the loss of innocent lives as a major factor in planning any action and using the inevitability of harm to innocents as excuse for mass murder.

Please also note that under the laws of war, collective punishment of civilians is forbidden. And no, please don't let your rage extrapolate the existence of chanda boxes for jihad into support by the entire population for terror in India so that you can say that theyre not _really_ civilian, all of them.

Re: # 1203

Hamidm2 miaN, I think it is more practical for India and Pakistan to remain enemies than to try to become friends.

Indians trying to become friends with Pakistanis would be like healthy folks indulging in sex with AIDS-infected folks. (I say it with the utmost compassion for those who suffer from that disease.) Unless one does it with extreme care, both the parties are doomed, for sure! And, irrespective of what the healthy party does, the other party is doomed for sure!

Sooner or later!

Re: # 1201

[pakistanis belive India bears them the same animosity you accuse them of,]

Bori, idiot! You are not Indian -- so stop pretending to be one.

No, the vast majority of Indian Mussalmaans are not in love with Jinnah's ideology like you seem to be.

Feel free to take up Hamidm2's offer of free room and board in Pakistan -- or preferably in his Hispanic-tended mansion in Michigan.

I enumerated all the "enemy" acts of Pakistani administration. I see you are scared to bring them up. That is because what Pakistanis have been doing is inexcusable!

I understand that your love for Pakistan makes you blind to all the evil that country has been directing toward India. But that does not mean I won't tell it like it is.

Being truthful and recounting the same does not require one to be fundamentalist. Denying it -- like you seem to be doing, carries all the hallmarks of one.

The Pakistanis on this site are inveterate liars -- and Hamidm2 miaN is the worst of the lying liars! In my opinion.

I think you will fit in perfectly if you do "cross over" to their side. Don't let me stop you.

bori mian,

.... i am beginnig to feel sorry for you, so if you want to cross over to the right side of the border you are welcome ......... i am afraid we cannot accomodate all 150 million of you guys but i am sure we can make room for one or two .....

....... if the bjp gets elected and they start transporting you guys to the showers and incinerators we will do the best we can ..... judging by the venom being spewed by folks like eklavya, pinku and bj that is more than likely, so good luck to you

Re: # 1200

bj mian,

... i never realized you were a hindoo fundamentalist ..... enema?

and please be civil dont create a self fulfilling prophecy by isolating muslims and calling the traitors.

BJ2 pakistanis belive India bears them the same animosity you accuse them of, this is a stalemate which will led to an increasing spiral of violence.