Pleas For Sanity as Sabres Rattle Over Mumbai Mayhem

[no wonder this and other problems lie unresolved.]

You are trying to solve the wrong problem. The problem lies with the Pakistani support for terror which they have been providing for decades. The problem lies in pumping jihadis into India. The problem lies with hijacking IC-814. The problem lies with bombing the Indian Parliament. The problem lies in bombing metro trains! The problem lies with bombing Indian Consulate!

What part of the problem your dumbass jihadi-wannabe head does not grasp?!

The problem lies with the enemy mindset that Pakistanis bear toward Indians.

AND the problem lies with those Indians (probably Muslims) who act as the agents of Pakistan, do their bidding, and think of Pakistan as their spiritual master!

Now, take your "disappointment" and stick it inside your Jinnah!

beej,

"If you live in India, it is only fair to expect to live as equal to everybody else"

Wow. What a temporary role reversal :)

See, the alienation and helplessness faced by Muslims is real. The question only is: what can be done about it? We need an honest dialogue about that, and do the best we can to help, but only to the extent it does not violate the rights and privileges of others.

Anyways, time for me to get out of here for now! :)

Goodnite, bhrata beej.

BJ2 your tone and response is disappointing, no wonder this and other problems lie unresolved.

The worst kind of traitor is one who lives in India and yet toes the Pakistani line, who dreams of Pakistan, and cries that his/her forefathers made the mistake of staying in India!

No more favors are necessary. If you don't like the land -- feel free to scoot over to Pakistan!

If you live in India, it is only fair to expect to live as equal to everybody else -- without special privileges and laws tailormade for your group.

And yes, equality can only extend to the equality of opportunity -- nothing gets handed down to anybody on a golden plate! (Ask your Pakistani darlings!)

#1185 Posted by borivili_express

you can not simply ignore the fact that there is something in Islam that makes muslims more prone to alienation than others.. further hindus in UK or USA or anywhere else live quite happily and never feel alienated.. even if they are vegetarian or whatever.. even if they do not do one single thing like people of their host country, they will still not hate or feel alienated... there is a difference that religion brings... and it is not because some muslim is different and he simply got genes to feel alienated.. it is a difference that Islam creates.... India and Indonesia have moderate muslims, Iran have many muslims who are hardly muslims or who do not even like Islam, but rest of the muslims are probably even more prone to alienation than Indian muslims...

[ i dont think a hypothetical kashmiri state would be islamist or rights violating.]

That's what that creep Jinnah said about a "hypothetical" Pakistan state and look at it now! Kambakhat, if you make a difference between citizens based on whether they are Hindus and Mussalmaans, you are part of the problem -- and the difference between a flaming Jihadi and you is only temporary. Kashmiris and Pakistanis seem to have gotten the Ummahitis bug which is fatal. If Bori miaN feels the same symptoms, he should feel free to cross over!

#1185 Posted by borivili_express

[[
see pinku part of the diff between punjab and kashmir is that sikhs are well integrated in india especially they make up 15% of army though are only 2% of pop, kashmiris or muslims are nowhere close to that integrated.
]]

That is their problem. Sikhs are there in Indian Army since British time, but Kashmiries are not there for more than one reason... Those are not at all valid reasons for feeling alienated. You can not expect common Kashmiri to be relying on such factors to feel alienated (they do not even know or understand this much). It is more of religion than anything else. So you are right when you say that Sikhs and Hindus had been close. That also gives you rest of the history, it is not imagination but fact that muslims in general are more prone to alienation because of their religion.

[[
secondly Hindus also historicaly were close to sikhs.
]]
true



[[
thirdly most of the abuses in punjab were done by sikhs on sikhs that was not the case in kashmir where it was indian hindu on kashmiri muslim.
]]
Not that true, they saw violent killings all over India done by Hindus, they even revolted with Pakistan's support, even religion is again different, but somehow the religious ego is not of similar nature. They do not have one single nation for their religion, thought of creating one, but left that thought quite easily despite the fact that Punjab gains 1000 times more by separating than Kashmir. The ego is different: Sikhs are capable of giving, not just taking, they feel proud on being "right", while the problem with Islam is that it inherits lot of deception and is at ease in accomodating deception. The amount of propaganda and lies used by Islamists is un-paralleled in history.

[[
secondly discrimination is not just in housing but according to pepole also in jobs in pvt sector and govt sector and in govt offices (?) police tratment, suspicion etc.
]]

Again, if propaganda is to be believed than Hindus discriminate so much that no hindu hires a muslim????? But if you fake yourself from a laborer to al possible jobs in private or government sectors in all Indian states and check what sort of discrimination you will find, you will be surprised. You are a muslim so you should know how much discrimination you have faced compared to Hindus or different regions. The discrimination in Job is as mush as a Bihari will face in UP? or a UP wala will face in Punjab?? In fact less than that. The suspicion is again less than that is deserved, a trader whom i know hires lot of muslim laborers and never suspect anyone, he hired one muslim laborer just because he can do a few not so legal things, as neither police nor inspectors can go inside that muslim locality, in his words govt of india stops outside of that locality???

You are a muslim, so do you want to suggest you do not know about Indian muslims and their alienation that is there doesn't matter what you do with them??

What alienates a muslim in UK?

You can not exxagerate extraneous reasons and make the problems that muslims themselves create a lot milder than they are. Remember majority of hindu or muslims in India (or even in Pakistan) do not matter at all, they hardly have time as they are quite poor, so all problems are created by those who have some time and worth to think stupidly or to get involved stupidly. Most of the problem creators are from middle classes.

" ithink we need to go beyond what u reccomend and grant some measur of autonomy"

I have two constraints for that. First whatever autonomy is given cannot violate the rule of equality between citizens and equality between states.

Second it is deeply unhealthy to set in motion something that instead of leading to a deeper integration of Kashmir with India leads to further alienation. That must be kept in mind.

#1185 Posted by borivili_express on December 11, 2008



kashmiris or muslims are nowhere close to that integrated.


name 5 countries where a muslim minority is well integrated...you only need look at the UK..

even US where muslims are better integrated than the UK, 25% of young american muslims support suicide bombings...

muslims need to stop whining..

in any case, indian muslims didn't do this shit..so it's a moot point anyway...

I agree with you on egypt as well, i shouldhave put that as a qualification, but most of these staes laws are not sharia and they dont privilige islam over other relgions in heir constitution.

Publius i agree with you but there is a gap between the treatment you reccomend and what is in effect on the ground, and ithink we need to go beyond what u reccomend and grant some measur of autonomy. but i dont think a hypothetical kashmiri state would be islamist or rights violating.

bori, yaar, you have too much coming at you at the same time. Not fair. Many of your ideas are good, and there is no reason why people can't work together here. :)

Catch you later.

"ther than Saudi and Iran none of the muslim countries are islamic states, most of the near east (turkey, syria, Iraq, lebanon, Jordan) central asia ( all the stans and azerbaijan), north africa (from Mauritania to egypt) and south east asia (malaysia, Indonesia (the most populos mulim country)) doesnot have islamic states"

I don't accept a definition which leads to the conclusion that Egypt, for instance, is not an Islamic state.

A state where Islam is officially , effectively and comprehensively privileged over other religions is an Islamic state no matter what it's other structure is.

"the kashmiris are so alienated and feel so powerless that any resistance or help they are ready to accept"

That may well be true but it does not change the fact that the likely result of independence will be a rights violating state.

Discrimination and alienation cannot be solved by institutuionalizing violation of rights.

In fact Kashmiris in the last few years have had good reasons for feeling less alienated , whether they choose to acknowledege those reasons or not.

The turnout in this election alone should be taken as a positive sign. Let us be consistently good to Kashmiris and make sure their rights are protected( and punish the rights vioaltion that do occur) but on the question of separation they have no valid grounds.

eklavya it doesnt matter wether discrimination is formal or informal its effects are felt secondly in many cases there is little overt discrimination but people want to control their own destiny like Georgia and Ukrain etc versus russia, these countries broke away before the stans because they have a sense of their own identity, similarly croatia and slovnia broke from serbia even before bosnia since they did not want to be dominated and had a sense of their own identity.

#1181 Posted by Eklavya on
Well, experiencing discrimination and subjecting to discrimination are two different things...

For example no body is discriminating against muslims when we do not have prayer rooms for them at airport, but they can still feel they are discriminated against...

similarly no body is discriminating agsint them if we do not have sharia laws included in UK law, but they can still feel so..

So the question is not of their feeling but of actual discrimination... anybody can feel anything..

The question is why muslim are so quick to feel alienated...

see pinku part of the diff between punjab and kashmir is that sikhs are well integrated in india especially they make up 15% of army though are only 2% of pop, kashmiris or muslims are nowhere close to that integrated. secondly Hindus also historicaly were close to sikhs. thirdly most of the abuses in punjab were done by sikhs on sikhs that was not the case in kashmir where it was indian hindu on kashmiri muslim.

secondly discrimination is not just in housing but according to pepole also in jobs in pvt sector and govt sector and in govt offices (?) police tratment, suspicion etc.


by the way several districts of jammu are muslim majority.

lastly the roads were blocked and the drivers were physically assaulted and many of those drivers were actually sikhs and they were so terrified they refused after the first few days to venture that way. the reason for not stoping the block was again political, BJP played up the anger in jammu whch was genuine, congress didnot want to use a heavy hand to open the highway for fear of alienating the jammu hindus before the elections. and in fact the initial land grant had been made by Azad just with a view to elections, for the existing arrangements for the amarnath journey were fine, it was the muslim porters who had been doing most of the hauling and services for generations in any case.