Pleas For Sanity as Sabres Rattle Over Mumbai Mayhem

#1174 Posted by borivili_express
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the state must do what it can to avoid
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borivili,
the first thing state need to do is to stop prosylytization, then it should decrease the role of religions to cripple the plans of Islamists/Saudi-Arabia/Pakistan. The state shouldn't have any religious holidays like holi, id or whatever, work more like China or communists to lessen the importance and influence of religion in society... by this time significant part of what you asked is already achieved...

but you can not simply forget history while the whole lot of Islamic propaganda/infiltration is still going on... you can not pretend that people are not hindus/muslims and there is no history behind them till you create an environment where they are actually less of a hindu or a muslim....

muslims find it hard (more compared to others) to be less muslims..... doesn't matter whether they live in an Islamic state or non-Islamic one.. the reason is because Islam has an inherent motivation in terms of us-vs-them ideology that keep them concerned about their identity....

in ALL those cases, discrimination was instituted within the formal state constitution.

Bori, in ALL those cases, discrimination would instituted within the formal state constitution. Or one group tried to constitutionally impose an unfair deal on the other. Or am I wrong?

Pinku, Muslims do experience discrimination. The question: what does that mean, and what can we expect that to lead to? And does it have to be in every case of discrimination?

post 1176 but discrimination among muslims does cause alienation thats is why bangladesh exist and that is why all the arab counries revolted against the ottomans and that is why Kurds fight against Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran or Darfur. and among non mulims too that is why cntral american rebels and anti russian revolts by their former states ukrain, georgia etc and that is why Tibet against china or east timor against indonesia.

part of the answer is the history of hindu muslim interaction in the subcontinent, and Kashmir india interaction

#1167 Posted by borivili_express on
borivili,

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Pinku Indian majority is not as nondiscriminatory as you imagine when dealing with muslims and no hindu majority state will agree to live under muslim rule either.

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They are certainly less discriminatory than muslims in general. None of Islamic nations fair better than India in treatment of their minorities. Further you are wrong, Kashmir with India has majority of muslim in Kashmir but India itself is Hindu majority. Hindu majority states have lived happily under muslim rule by giving jijiya or whatever during pre 1947 era. And they can do so anytime, because they do not have same degree of ego as is reflected by muslim groups. Both degree and quality of group ego is different.


Also, it is an Islamist problem eventually. The simple truth is that it was obvious to Kashmiries that India can not take anything from them but can only give something to them, the whole problem was the question of muslim majority needing a muslim identity plus separate land. We can not even justify creation of Pakistan itself forget creation of Kashmir.

the data of deaths and rapes is wrong.... it is highly exaggerated... alienation is not just because of deaths and rapes but mainly because the population is muslim and is ready to be alienated... Punjab has seen lot many deaths and rapes in much shorter time, they are still not that alienated. And you can tell Kashmiries that first whatever Kashmiriyaat they feel proud of comes from Hindus and secondly compared to Punjab which plays a very positive role (a strong economy), the role they have played is highly negative.

i have said it earlier any other Army would have performed much worse than Indian Army given the conditions of Kashmir.

You say that Kashmiries were discriminated against in rest of India? when did they go to rest of India and what discrimination they faced??

...failure of Kashmir was because of Kashmiries, they never understood that they do not need to separate from India, they remained confused and Pakistan did the rest to bring the worst out of that situation.

What discrimination Indian muslim's face in India? The most significant discrimination I know of is when you want to rent a room/apartment in a good locality. What else? In a third world country who gets favours?? Can you list the discriminations against muslims that Hindus do not face?


Further just to let Pakistanis know: in the part of Jammu and Kashmir that India controls, majority of area, around 70% is Jammu and Laddhak.

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there is also the problem of helplessnes iwth such a huge army presence, upper admin in the hands of the IAS and as the problem of road blockae during the Jammu showdown showed, crores worth of their fruit and commodities just rotted away, basic supplies ran scarce since no imports were allowed.
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This is also wrong, similar to the number of deaths and rapes, police/army clarified that they never stopped anything, it was separatists who created chaos and confusion and spread rumour that police is stopping trucks. Still, you can not expect that in such a pathetic situation nothing will go wrong.

Publius other than Saudi and Iran none of the muslim countries are islamic states, most of the near east (turkey, syria, Iraq, lebanon, Jordan) central asia ( all the stans and azerbaijan), north africa (from Mauritania to egypt) and south east asia (malaysia, Indonesia (the most populos mulim country)) doesnot have islamic states.

The reason many of these struggles become islamic is the states they oppose are able to with their brutality destroy the nationalists, but the islamists are ideologicialy comited and so despite small numbers are able to hold out. so for example india eliminated JKLF but finds it more difficult to eliminate the lashkars. the kashmiris are so alienated and feel so powerless that any resistance or help they are ready to accept.

# 1175 is a good post. We need to think more about that. About what can be or should be done.

Consider that objective discrimination among non-Muslims or among Muslims themselves does not cause alienation to the same extent.

Do you think there could be something to that?

the state must do what it can to avoid bringing the baggage of the past into the present and emphasis positive aspects of history where hindu muslims unity existed. hthis is what congress did, unfortunately by the 70s in addition it started the wrong trend of explicitly pandering to religious identities since the peopel were frustrated with corruption and their failed economic policies.

the bjp does the opposite it emphasises only the negative aspects of history and that too it exxagerates, as if the muslim conquerors were representatives of islam or as if all the muslims ever did what was rape, loot and converts, even if they had done so they should not drive this into childrens head, and the muslims of today who are mostly local converts couldnot have been held responsible. this wrong emphaisis and lying changes malleable minds and makes them hate their fellow citizens, same for the muslim side this should be stopped by the stae because it will automatically lead todiscrimination and extreme violence like in gujarat where people were avenging not the injsutices of today but the assumed injustices of 1000 years ago, because they were taught this false history and taught as if this had happened yesterday

the state must do what it can to avoid bringing the baggage of the past into the present and emphasis positive aspects of history where hindu muslims unity existed. hthis is what congress did, unfortunately by the 70s in addition it started the wrong trend of explicitly pandering to religious identities since the peopel were frustrated with corruption and their failed economic policies.

the bjp does the opposite it emphasises only the negative aspects of history and that too it exxagerates, as if the muslim conquerors were representatives of islam or as if all the muslims ever did what was rape, loot and converts, even if they had done so they should not drive this into childrens head, and the muslims of today who are mostly local converts couldnot have been held responsible. this wrong emphaisis and lying changes malleable minds and makes them hate their fellow citizens, same for the muslim side this should be stopped by the stae because it will automatically lead todiscrimination and extreme violence like in gujarat where people were avenging not the injsutices of today but the assumed injustices of 1000 years ago, because they were taught this false history and taught as if this had happened yesterday

"On what evidence do you think kashmiris want to establish an islamist govt"

borivill_express, first of all , any group of muslims in a majority in any region, no matter how moderate, are extremely susceptible to the appeal of political islam.

Basically there is something about Islam that sanctifies a religious state, which is why the overwhelming majority of muslim countries are Islamic states.

Then when you add to that the fact that armed wing of the separatist movement is explicity Jihadi and non armed wing is based on explicit appeals to religious identity, the probability that plebescite is anything other than Islamic state is negligible.

Do you seriously believe that given the option Kashmiris will establish anything other than an Islamic state on the lines of Pakistan ?

Bori, the history of Hindu-Muslim interactions is so conflicted that there is bound to be some discrimination on both sides. Probably Hindus in Pakistan face some discrimination too.

The question then becomes does discrimination always lead to alienation or is it sufficient to cause alienation by itself? Or can alienation be a product of historical relations and identities themselves - with objective discrimination playing a rather non-decisive part?

I am just thinking through these things, so what do you feel?

eklavya because identities in developing countries are religously defined and these religous identies are antagonistic to wards each other because of historical baggage and repeatedly reminding people about that, what children are taught by parents and societies. consequently people discriminate.

bori, you said something interesting.

"no hindu majority state will agree to live under muslim rule either."

I am trying to think - why? What would be the problem?

I spoke with a kshmiri woman recntly she told me that they face discrimination in both govt and pvt sector henever they come to the plains in delhi and bombay. she claimed that the boys are harrased and on any pretext are arrested, tortured and detained indefinitely. Itried to explain to her that that happens with non kashmiri muslims as well, but she said it was much more with kashmiris, and soon youwill also become militants, now what reply can one give.