Pleas For Sanity as Sabres Rattle Over Mumbai Mayhem

Bori

This is EXACTLY the problem - of alienation and sense of helplessness and frustration.

pinku "What is their logic for demanding separation from India" see refer to my post below the reason for alienation as I see is that India rigged elections, because it didnt trust them. They faced the discrimination in the rest of india that all muslims feel, in their case they can often be even visially distinguished, most muslims cant do anything about it and dont feel that they have a seperate language or national identity, they could do some thing about it because they were in a majority and always had a sense of idntity by virtue of their language, ethnicity, and culture which is by definition religously based.

so they deicded to revolt India tried to put it down by force and killed, coomitted violations didnt rein in the troops nor punished them, then the daily humiliations of check points, searches, misbehaviour of troops who are ultimately indian and hndu.

budhists didnt participate because they are in ladakh and dont consider themslves kashmiri, hindus as I explained in my post below didnt participate for the same reason that muslims in say Hyderbad would not had it been part of pakistan. Anyway the muslims are in the majority and they are now alienated.

The parliament has no rela autonomy India has steadyly whittled it from 48 onwards and doesnt aloow it any measure to regain that, what ever little resolutions are passed even that is ignored for example farooq abdullah who is supposed to be nationalist and antipakistan wanted to fly the state flag along with the national flag, which is common in the US, India didnt allow even that.

Pinku Indian majority is not as nondiscriminatory as you imagine when dealing with muslims and no hindu majority state will agree to live under muslim rule either.

I dont see this as an islamist problem, currently the problem is alienation, people cant lforget the violence, the rapes, encounters, custodial deaths and tortures, the 60 to 80,000 deaths in a pop that is only 7 million would be equivalent to 11 million deaths in a country the size of india, If the british had killed as many it would have been difficult for the indians to reconcile themselves except under duress.

there is also the problem of helplessnes iwth such a huge army presence, upper admin in the hands of the IAS and as the problem of road blockae during the Jammu showdown showed, crores worth of their fruit and commodities just rotted away, basic supplies ran scarce since no imports were allowed.

So the question is what can be done to solve this problem of alienation and helplessness.

Pinku, we have to realize that this is ONLY a matter of one's values. So the only thing that keeps this vision from being implemented in Kashmir or anywhere else is relative powers of different groups at any point time.

#1163 Posted by Eklavya on

Perfect, it is not just will of people, it is validity of that will that matters... muslims all over world want Islamic state, if possible they will create nations in each 1 square kilometer they can find majority????

#1161 Posted by Eklavya on

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The question is - do you allow the creation of separate country to a religious group unless the religious group is being officially discriminated against (not just that it feels it is being victimized or discriminated against)?
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Well, the answer is simpler.... till you can not give a valid reason you should be slapped hard enough if you try to separate. So if both Kashmiries and Indians give reason why Kashmir should or shouldn't separate from India the better one should be chosen.

Kashmiries have no valid reason except for complete idiotic ones that Pakistanis on chowk here will give you. Like everybody has a right to determine when he wants to die or separate and so please let them separate. In India you can not even take divorce on will like that (but in Islamic system you can say "talak" thrice and can be done with rest of the process)?

In such a case you should slap those who give such reasons as well. They may go on to say that everbody has a right to kill anybody, till they realize that it gives me right to slap them as well (if somehow i can manage)??

You can see how stupidly Pakistanis here justify why Kashmiries should get freedom, while most of them have not yet freed themselves from Islamic mentality. Only reason they can think like this despite having good enough intelligence is because their intellect is still trapped in Islamic group ego. If Kashmiries were Christians, it would have been ok to let them separate even if there reason was invalid because in future the situation would not have become worse that easily. But with China, Pakistan and Bangladesh on periphery, and with extremely great potential of Pakistan to create hell of all sorts, it is deadly for whole of Souith Asia. It is like creating another safe haven for Islamists. Who the hell in Kashmir will stop Islamization? Another terror hub on Indian periphery??

That is what I would think so. I would reject that as fundamentally wrong and unacceptable.

It doesn't matter if such religious people propose to build an utopia for themselves and for others.

Nor can it be done on the basis of self-determination. This is not self-determination, it is determination for all others.

Re: # 1161

The answer is an obvious NO.

Pinku, it IS a religious issue alone.

The question is - do you allow the creation of separate country to a religious group unless the religious group is being officially discriminated against (not just that it feels it is being victimized or discriminated against)?

#1156 Posted by Eklavya on

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My view would be that the problem in Kashmir is much deeper than not letting Muslims in the Valley create an Islamic state.
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It can't be deeper than the religious stuff, because that is the deepest thing that is still above burried lands... So the more you try to understand Kashmir problem the more it will seem like a religious one.. there is no reason for Kashmiries to separate from a federation like India which takes little from them and which gives or can give a lot for free...


1. the overall history of Kashmir and India doesn't allow much to be given to Islam... It deserved nothing from India (and nothing from Kashmir) and got a lot.... This is understood by USA/Europe and any non-muslim interested in Kashmir... The results of conversions are not understood by muslims but every non-muslim understands what happened to India/Indian sub-continent because of this conversion...

2. the overall strategic situation of Indian sub continent doesn't allow anything to be given to Islam... close to 1 billion people get offended by any more donation of land and civilization to land/people hungry Islam.... This is understood by USA/Europe and any non-muslim interested in Kashmir...

3. It is not just a political issue, the parent issue is creation of Pakistan which was originally a religious issue that created all sorts of seemingly political issues. Before partition, the political class of muslims was not willing to live as a minority in India despite having such a huge population of muslims. There is no country on earth where muslims live happily as a minority. That is the root cause of creation of Pakistan and then all political problems arising out of it. The problem is with Islam, it doesn't know how to let a muslim to be a good human.

4. All such problems will be properly resolved only when religions in general lose relevance and majority of people understand that they are good for nothing.

Re: # 1155

If that's the case why do only Kashmiri sunni muslims want to secede from India (note that it is not the Hindus, Buddists or even the Shia Muslims)?

#1155 Posted by borivili_express on
What is their logic for demanding separation from India, if all they want is democratic setup?
Can they list any reasons? What is it that India gets from Kashmir?? If they can not give any good enough reason then as India is a democracy the assumption that Publius made can be valid suspicion (in any case it has to be assumption because till it happens we can't be sure) and his argument still remains valid. It reflects insanity of Kashmiries if they can not give valid reason and still want to separate (and yet claim they will make democratic state of muslim majority from where they have already tried to eliminate Hindus). With two such failed experiments in the form of Pakistan and Bangladesh, India should slap separatists hard and do what North USA did to south.

Re: # 1154

While that is the fundamental reason for not holding a plebiscite in Kashmir (the "freedom" struggle is purely religious) I think I was arguing technicality.

I will wait for Publius' response. My view would be that the problem in Kashmir is much deeper than not letting Muslims in the Valley create an Islamic state.

Publius I agree with your logic but I have a question about one of your assumptions,

On what evidence do you think kashmiris want to establish an islamist govt? they have never voted for Jamat Islami, even in the hurriyat, the islamists are the weakest party.

"No way the plebiscite will yield any proper results after the atmosphere has been so vitiated"

MaheshG the strongest argument against plebiscite is not that it will not yield "proper" resulsts but that no group has the right to establish a rights violating system by replacing a (relatively) rights protecting one.

For instance when the American south asked for separation the north so that it could maintain slavery the north did not allow it to do so.

Kashmiris or any other group have no right to replace a democratic semi-free setup with an Islamic dictatorship as such.

The so called right to self-determination is a conditional right( qualified by the type of political system that you wish to establish) not an unconditional one.

MaheshG, supposed advani should be tried. And suppose he isn't. So suppose there is injustice in India.

Then what?