Ayodha , Dec 06

Mr. Dutta,

Are you for real? While smelly little hindus and mussalmans are fighting each other, blowing up each others' identity ... what makes you think that they are stupid? Do you think that no one will notice your patronizing attitude oozing out from your essy? While I bow down before the gora sahib and am enthralled by the spirituality of his religion, I still get to see a part of the Indian heritage blown up by Portugese warriors in a cave just outside Mumbai. Are they the only ones? Do you remember the date when they were blown up? Is it worth mentioning? Are the RSS and the Taliban the only ones who smell? Are they the only communal ones? Where does the patronizing communal Christian fit in?

borivli, i thought you presented clear opinion on your perception, not a simple historical fact. anyhoo..if you say you are not communal no problem, it is just a label, what is interesting to me is progress and peace, not ideological justice.

"muslims need to have confidence in the stae, law enforcement and intelligence where there are none, how will they then get info and how will they infiltrate these orgs."

this is a tough chicken and egg..considering infiltration by jihadis in indian muslim community, but definitely important. BTW do you think the majority community has confidence in state, law enforcement and intelligence? Jack Welch wrote in bussinessweek that IB is 3000 personnel weak for a 1 billion country..compare that to 30000 FBI agents. i am personally happy that IB is weak since its a pre-colonial style org mostly used to assess political climate.

anyways it was good to see shivsena dominated mumbais police commissioner with a minority name which was not Ribiero or Gill or Bedi.

there will soon b e another attack because the us is putting pressure on pak to clean up militants in Fata otherwise it will intervene this pressure will increase under obama, so militants will increase tensions between pak and india to divert pak army so they will d some attack soon

India should pressurise pak to clean up but not create insexcurity in pak else wil backfire and india has to clean its own house that is law enforcement and judicial system its long over due, that is prevention beter than cure and try to integrate muslims in national mainstream through govt service, education etc like atempt was made with dalits etc now only muslims are left out of the national mainstream. muslims need to have confidence in the stae, law enforcement and intelligence where there are none, how will they then get info and how will they infiltrate these orgs.

personally i see a bad future, bjp showed that if it comes to power in the center it will change textbooks even with ridiculous facts and increasing communalism as in Gujarat, a new genration of even more communalised hindus will grow up, the experiment has been gaining adherents since the seventies when the front orgs and sishu mandirs spread out in a big way. and sooner or later the bjp will return to power.

the terorists on the other hand will go on doing acts, further providing fuel and worsening the image of muslims which bjp will exploit. result will be muslim will increasingly feel lonely and discriminated against, the nature of capitalist expansion means inequalities will increase. poor rich gap wil increase this will create problems for caste relations but also for hindu muslim ones bcause most mulims are poor and lke the lower castes poorly educated and hence poorly equipped to take advantage of the capitalist economy, govt service doors are also closed due to their own reluctance and discrimination in rcruiting.


some PILs will help and some civil society too but unless more is done to draw in the poorer sections of society the prognosi is not good.

i must correct te last post advanis was not so much due to economic failure as the RSS ideology, of which he vajpayee etc were lifelong members, only it had not been possible to say such things in the post independence political, social and culture ethos

by the way the rise of identity politics by Indira, advani, and the lower caste leaders was because of economic failure of the stae, it was when theyr ealised that people had become disillusioned with their empty promises and corruption, that they increasingly resorted to identy politics and communalism jetisoning the secularism and idealism of the independence movement. the primary reason for that was that state controlled economics had failed.

Jang says: "bori, when you identify indias political problems on clearly communal lines, that makes you communal. yar there is nothing wrong with being communal..indira made it a bad word. garv se kaho hum communal hain"

if u point out a historical picture u become a communalist what logic is this?

communalism is wrong wether in India, pakistan or bangladesh and wether by the majority, minority or anyone else. And communalism most often gives rise to violence that is why its wrong, because it plays up identities and sharpens them. so its wrong because it divides people and many comunalists advocate or practice violence, hence it becomes more dangerous when practiced by a majority since they control the state and communalise it as well, as a consequence they affect large scale violence, alienate minorities from the nation and comunalism helps justify and increase discrimination. as regards casteism thats a slightly different animal, hindus were always divided along caste lines go to any village, the shudras and chamars were not even considered hindu, sometimes not even human. while reservation could have been on economic basis but rather than on caste that might have divided less, though there would still be resistance against it by the elites. secondly it should have attempted to avoid the creamy layer which created further resistance against it.

the best strategy would have been that the upper castes themselves not opposed reservation but have modified it to make it economic rather than caste based.

jang#55:

This is what defines "pseudo seculars" in India. They have no problem with communalism as long as it is practised by minorities or is used to divide the Hindu community along caste lines. But it becomes maladorous only when it is practised in the name of the majority community.

And the bad connotation of communalists, which meant only Hindu communalism, started not with Indira but her father. I remember that in the first general election in India, Nehru would condemn the "firqa-parast" Jan Sangh in Kerala where the only firqa-parast party was the Muslim League with which the Congress has had no problem in making an alliance.

BJP strategy BTW was a page out of karbala. in 1990 foiled shilanyas attempt, in the UP sarkar firing, 300 karsevaks died and many others were maimed. sangh parivar sadhus performed cremation on the banks of sharayu river..clearly the dead attained a holy-shadeed status. sangh parivar then made sure that the ashes were carried to each village and town and the maimed did their part. this was a huge fundraising and "sangathan" effect. RSS which was a dying organization of over 65 bujurgs, was revived with many young joining it. i talked to one such young a few years back and he lamented that without a clear cause like that, rss is again on the decline.

karma is relentless.

nb:

Borivilli is definitely Indian. In fact, I agree completely with him as to the events which propelled the BJP, which was cooperating quite well with the communists to support the VP Singh govt. to intensify the Ayodhya movement. I might add that VP too was forced to bring out Mandal to deal with his troublesome deputy, Tau Devidayal, who was successfully using jat power to cause trouble for VP. Though a decent man, VP is responsible for both the rise of political casteism and the BJP.

"indias problem was there was a huge single party which was mostly hindu and would permanently be in power for the forseable future after independence and their was a mulim party which would permanently sit in opposition."

bori, when you identify indias political problems on clearly communal lines, that makes you communal. yar there is nothing wrong with being communal..indira made it a bad word. garv se kaho hum communal hain.

laloo represents his community of yadavs, mayavati hers, DMK theirs, shivsena too. whats wrong with this picture? it is absolutely fair game to clearly state demands of a community and deal with electoral and other consequences, esp when its clear that intellecruals in a community do not feel joining a larger umbrella type party does not represent upliftment of their community. in particular, if upliftment of a specific community is a different path than a generic community.

now you can debate if shivsena, laloo, mayavati and DMK have done well for their communities...its a mixed bag and their communities can punish them electorally. laloo started many more trains for biharis making it easy to go work outside, DMK managed to form a new creamy layer, shivsena is the only party which managed to do ANY infrastructure development in bombay since independence and so on.

if muslims are monolithic in their opressed status, its imperative that they form a muslim party with clear muslim demands. their vote-block is powerful.

I agree with you as far as the seminal importance of 6/12 is concerned in independent India's history. It was the day which alienated Muslims from India as no other event has done and sowed the seeds of the rise of Muslim militancy.

I do not agree with your comparison with the destruction of Bamian Buddhas. The demolition of Ayodhya was an illegal act perpetrated by Hindu extremists to avenge what they perceived was a historical wrong. They did so while the state machinery looked on and failed to protect a heritage masjid and, more importantly, the sentiments of its largest minority. It was against the secular ideology of the state as well as against the religion of its demolishers which believes in equal respect for all places of worship. The Bamian Buddhas, on the other hand, was a legal act performed by the state and it was quite in conformity of the taleban ideology that the state followed. You may condemn both these acts but they are not the same.

I also agree that we should not erase the unpalatable part of our history. But, in this, most critics of the Babri masjid destruction are inconsistent. They never protested when symbols of the British rulers, such as statues as well as the names of places [e.g., Queensway became Janpath and Kingsway Rajpath] were erased. Is it because there is no Clive-ki-aulad in India or in Pakistan where names of cities like Lyalpur were also changed without protest?

@ NB.. hmm.. there was a john galt here before? that's cool.. well i'm the new one i sup.. i wonder how chowk allowed the same username to two different users..nonetheless appreciate your welcome and thank you from both of us, the old and the new john galt :)

Bori miaN, it would be a mistake for the Indian Mussalmaans (IMs) to parade their Muslimness and to keep harping on their Ummah-ness and their perceived "wrongs" from the past. If they keep doing that, sooner or later they will turn their leadership and power over to the fundos amongst them (and yes, there are a few!) like the Pakistanis have been in the process of doing (and so now even they are trying a bit harder to reclaim that power). Don't follow the doctrine of the Jinnah -- that Muslims and Hindus are separate nations because of their religion -- that is utter lunacy and a surefire way to disaster for the country at large and its Mussalmaans in particular. Instead, emphasize your Indianness, be proud of it, and work constructively to socially uplift your community and make it a proud component of the Hindustani society -- as well as a shining example to the world of what liberal Mussalmaans can acccomplish.

It would also be interesting to know how many non-Muslim places of worship have been razed to the ground in Pakistan since 1947.
As per Jinnah's ideology, Pakistan was supposed to be a place where even non Muslims can practice their faith without facing discrimination (perhaps I am wrong, correct me if so).
आलोक

vrv are you hpsauce?