Ayodha , Dec 06

#80...
and it (Ram temple movement) is killed by mr. m m singh by bringing open economy and flurry of tv channels.....

Re: # 70
om prakash....
"One factor contributing to the rise of VHP/RSS/BJP that is often missed in these discussions is large-scale conversion of lower castes to Islam fueled by petrodollars. It went from there to Babri Masjid...."

That is not the case...if lower caste people want to convert to islam, it is their wish. I know, Indian govt. do not allow people to commit suicide but allow such kind of anti-national activities (converting to arab beduinism)......

Ram temple movement was revived by Mr. Ramananda Sagar through the TV serial Ramayana on Sunday Prime Time, Doordarshan.......

Ref kaurasach #69

[the attacks on non muslims in W Punjab didn't stop till the attacks on muslims in E Punjab began....]

Good thing that that dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani is busy with something else.

Otherwise he would be here like a ton of bricks on you about how it was the Hindus and Sikhs who started the killings in Punjab and ending with "Gandhi is a racist fascist caste-ist pig!"

Interesting facts in this article!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy

Wow. Such soulful words..

The Babari Masjid demolition was certainly not the best resolution to the Hindu grievances on that issue. However, to disproportionately shower all your sympathies on an inanimate structure and spare none for the flesh and blood of actual Indians suffering the jihadies.. has to be either the height of hypocrisy or the height of ignorance.

The one good part about your article- at least now Arundhoti Roy can now die in peace.. knowing that the Shantanu Duttas are there to carry on her work.

Whoever is flagging Indian interactors' posts here, you missed a few. Try again.

Shantanu Dutta is preaching Christianity to Hindus here.

He wants us to turn the other cheek.

But he doesn't read history. Even history written by conquerors.

Otherwise he would know that when the last Inca emperor came on a peace parley to meet with the Spanish conquistadores under guarentee of safe passage, it was the Catholic priest who gave the dispensation that it was God's will that the heathens be attacked. The Inca emperor was seized and imprisoned. Even after paying tons of gold in ransom, he was not released.

Finally, after the Inca emperor was given the opportunity to convert to Christianity and save his soul (he would still have been executed) or dying a painful heathen's death, he declared that he would rather go to Hell than the Christian paradise. He was garrotted (a wire was twisted around his neck and he was choked to death).

I am sure Shantanu Dutta will find a way to link Hindus to this event in Christian history.

Mr. Shant,
I am realy amazed to find such innovative articles here from some Indians(?)...so, babri mosque demolision was the root of talibani problem. even the pakis never claim that so far...talibs received training from VHP kar sevaks from 1992 to 2000 and applied that skill on bamian statues? that was something never published in news papers......so babri demolition is root cause of destruction of millenium old statue (UNESCO world heritage site)......
moslas living india got realy terrorised by babri mosque demolision, but then again that has not resulted in single exodus of moslas to the dumping grounds in east (BD) and west(Pakiland)...rather large number of non-moslas had to migrate from BD (at least that I know) after this crap........
is it so that moslas got so terrorised that, they have not left india and the bongs loved this heroics so much that they have jumped from BD to india leaving their ancestral properties (in some cases daughters as well) etc....
excellent......

what would be great is the chinese model of atheism....

hang the guys who talk religion. hang the guys who fight based on religion. Mention god (in private or public) and you are shot, the bullet presented to your family and they pay for it.

relgion, relgious icons, religious land are just a waste of money time and energy.

Borivili ( I still don't believe you're an Indian), I read through some of the HT's articles. It was interesting to see that many Kashmiris think they will get employment if there is azadi. They're not too bright, are they?

kanjar ki aulad attacks n nonmuslims in west punjab didnt stop until there were none left. similarly attacks on muslims in east punjab didnt stop till all left and most of the attacks in east punjab were on muslim convoys and trains which were anyway leaving

One factor contributing to the rise of VHP/RSS/BJP that is often missed in these discussions is large-scale conversion of lower castes to Islam fueled by petrodollars. It went from there to Babri Masjid.

it may sound bad.....but like diamond cuts diamond....kanjarpana fights kanjarpana.....

the attacks on non muslims in W Punjab didn't stop till the attacks on muslims in E Punjab began....

the only way to stop thm is through supreme court through PILs but even that organ is becoming ineffective due to opposition from legislature and is being accused of interference and so is taking a selfimposed backseat and now even supreme court is being accused of corruption and communalism

bjp has done a better job than other orgs by integrating within the state system and directing energies internally and towards minorities rather than externally or towards reforming majority, but ultimately they will change the nature of the state, its clear if u read their ideology as propunded by the RSS and its leaders in the past

jang all extremist ideologies finally cause conflict either internal or external, and they all think they ar making their commuity strong, wether fascism in germany or islamic extremists who want islamic rule, or Hindu extremists in rss and bjp. their ideology is dangerous not only because it reduces diversity but it creates violence, insecurity in state with large minorities. in india's case there is additional linkages betwn extremist orgs in neighboroung countries which are dealing with their own probs.

Indian muslims didnt have any indigenous extremist orgs or even links with outside ones until recently, this is a worrying trend.

i dont know what the future holds but if the state doesnt interven in stoping dissemination of hate its a sad future

Mr. Dutta,

Are you for real? While smelly little hindus and mussalmans are fighting each other, blowing up each others' identity ... what makes you think that they are stupid? Do you think that no one will notice your patronizing attitude oozing out from your essy? While I bow down before the gora sahib and am enthralled by the spirituality of his religion, I still get to see a part of the Indian heritage blown up by Portugese warriors in a cave just outside Mumbai. Are they the only ones? Do you remember the date when they were blown up? Is it worth mentioning? Are the RSS and the Taliban the only ones who smell? Are they the only communal ones? Where does the patronizing communal Christian fit in?

borivli, i thought you presented clear opinion on your perception, not a simple historical fact. anyhoo..if you say you are not communal no problem, it is just a label, what is interesting to me is progress and peace, not ideological justice.

"muslims need to have confidence in the stae, law enforcement and intelligence where there are none, how will they then get info and how will they infiltrate these orgs."

this is a tough chicken and egg..considering infiltration by jihadis in indian muslim community, but definitely important. BTW do you think the majority community has confidence in state, law enforcement and intelligence? Jack Welch wrote in bussinessweek that IB is 3000 personnel weak for a 1 billion country..compare that to 30000 FBI agents. i am personally happy that IB is weak since its a pre-colonial style org mostly used to assess political climate.

anyways it was good to see shivsena dominated mumbais police commissioner with a minority name which was not Ribiero or Gill or Bedi.

there will soon b e another attack because the us is putting pressure on pak to clean up militants in Fata otherwise it will intervene this pressure will increase under obama, so militants will increase tensions between pak and india to divert pak army so they will d some attack soon

India should pressurise pak to clean up but not create insexcurity in pak else wil backfire and india has to clean its own house that is law enforcement and judicial system its long over due, that is prevention beter than cure and try to integrate muslims in national mainstream through govt service, education etc like atempt was made with dalits etc now only muslims are left out of the national mainstream. muslims need to have confidence in the stae, law enforcement and intelligence where there are none, how will they then get info and how will they infiltrate these orgs.

personally i see a bad future, bjp showed that if it comes to power in the center it will change textbooks even with ridiculous facts and increasing communalism as in Gujarat, a new genration of even more communalised hindus will grow up, the experiment has been gaining adherents since the seventies when the front orgs and sishu mandirs spread out in a big way. and sooner or later the bjp will return to power.

the terorists on the other hand will go on doing acts, further providing fuel and worsening the image of muslims which bjp will exploit. result will be muslim will increasingly feel lonely and discriminated against, the nature of capitalist expansion means inequalities will increase. poor rich gap wil increase this will create problems for caste relations but also for hindu muslim ones bcause most mulims are poor and lke the lower castes poorly educated and hence poorly equipped to take advantage of the capitalist economy, govt service doors are also closed due to their own reluctance and discrimination in rcruiting.


some PILs will help and some civil society too but unless more is done to draw in the poorer sections of society the prognosi is not good.

i must correct te last post advanis was not so much due to economic failure as the RSS ideology, of which he vajpayee etc were lifelong members, only it had not been possible to say such things in the post independence political, social and culture ethos

by the way the rise of identity politics by Indira, advani, and the lower caste leaders was because of economic failure of the stae, it was when theyr ealised that people had become disillusioned with their empty promises and corruption, that they increasingly resorted to identy politics and communalism jetisoning the secularism and idealism of the independence movement. the primary reason for that was that state controlled economics had failed.

Jang says: "bori, when you identify indias political problems on clearly communal lines, that makes you communal. yar there is nothing wrong with being communal..indira made it a bad word. garv se kaho hum communal hain"

if u point out a historical picture u become a communalist what logic is this?

communalism is wrong wether in India, pakistan or bangladesh and wether by the majority, minority or anyone else. And communalism most often gives rise to violence that is why its wrong, because it plays up identities and sharpens them. so its wrong because it divides people and many comunalists advocate or practice violence, hence it becomes more dangerous when practiced by a majority since they control the state and communalise it as well, as a consequence they affect large scale violence, alienate minorities from the nation and comunalism helps justify and increase discrimination. as regards casteism thats a slightly different animal, hindus were always divided along caste lines go to any village, the shudras and chamars were not even considered hindu, sometimes not even human. while reservation could have been on economic basis but rather than on caste that might have divided less, though there would still be resistance against it by the elites. secondly it should have attempted to avoid the creamy layer which created further resistance against it.

the best strategy would have been that the upper castes themselves not opposed reservation but have modified it to make it economic rather than caste based.

jang#55:

This is what defines "pseudo seculars" in India. They have no problem with communalism as long as it is practised by minorities or is used to divide the Hindu community along caste lines. But it becomes maladorous only when it is practised in the name of the majority community.

And the bad connotation of communalists, which meant only Hindu communalism, started not with Indira but her father. I remember that in the first general election in India, Nehru would condemn the "firqa-parast" Jan Sangh in Kerala where the only firqa-parast party was the Muslim League with which the Congress has had no problem in making an alliance.

BJP strategy BTW was a page out of karbala. in 1990 foiled shilanyas attempt, in the UP sarkar firing, 300 karsevaks died and many others were maimed. sangh parivar sadhus performed cremation on the banks of sharayu river..clearly the dead attained a holy-shadeed status. sangh parivar then made sure that the ashes were carried to each village and town and the maimed did their part. this was a huge fundraising and "sangathan" effect. RSS which was a dying organization of over 65 bujurgs, was revived with many young joining it. i talked to one such young a few years back and he lamented that without a clear cause like that, rss is again on the decline.

karma is relentless.

nb:

Borivilli is definitely Indian. In fact, I agree completely with him as to the events which propelled the BJP, which was cooperating quite well with the communists to support the VP Singh govt. to intensify the Ayodhya movement. I might add that VP too was forced to bring out Mandal to deal with his troublesome deputy, Tau Devidayal, who was successfully using jat power to cause trouble for VP. Though a decent man, VP is responsible for both the rise of political casteism and the BJP.

"indias problem was there was a huge single party which was mostly hindu and would permanently be in power for the forseable future after independence and their was a mulim party which would permanently sit in opposition."

bori, when you identify indias political problems on clearly communal lines, that makes you communal. yar there is nothing wrong with being communal..indira made it a bad word. garv se kaho hum communal hain.

laloo represents his community of yadavs, mayavati hers, DMK theirs, shivsena too. whats wrong with this picture? it is absolutely fair game to clearly state demands of a community and deal with electoral and other consequences, esp when its clear that intellecruals in a community do not feel joining a larger umbrella type party does not represent upliftment of their community. in particular, if upliftment of a specific community is a different path than a generic community.

now you can debate if shivsena, laloo, mayavati and DMK have done well for their communities...its a mixed bag and their communities can punish them electorally. laloo started many more trains for biharis making it easy to go work outside, DMK managed to form a new creamy layer, shivsena is the only party which managed to do ANY infrastructure development in bombay since independence and so on.

if muslims are monolithic in their opressed status, its imperative that they form a muslim party with clear muslim demands. their vote-block is powerful.

I agree with you as far as the seminal importance of 6/12 is concerned in independent India's history. It was the day which alienated Muslims from India as no other event has done and sowed the seeds of the rise of Muslim militancy.

I do not agree with your comparison with the destruction of Bamian Buddhas. The demolition of Ayodhya was an illegal act perpetrated by Hindu extremists to avenge what they perceived was a historical wrong. They did so while the state machinery looked on and failed to protect a heritage masjid and, more importantly, the sentiments of its largest minority. It was against the secular ideology of the state as well as against the religion of its demolishers which believes in equal respect for all places of worship. The Bamian Buddhas, on the other hand, was a legal act performed by the state and it was quite in conformity of the taleban ideology that the state followed. You may condemn both these acts but they are not the same.

I also agree that we should not erase the unpalatable part of our history. But, in this, most critics of the Babri masjid destruction are inconsistent. They never protested when symbols of the British rulers, such as statues as well as the names of places [e.g., Queensway became Janpath and Kingsway Rajpath] were erased. Is it because there is no Clive-ki-aulad in India or in Pakistan where names of cities like Lyalpur were also changed without protest?

@ NB.. hmm.. there was a john galt here before? that's cool.. well i'm the new one i sup.. i wonder how chowk allowed the same username to two different users..nonetheless appreciate your welcome and thank you from both of us, the old and the new john galt :)

Bori miaN, it would be a mistake for the Indian Mussalmaans (IMs) to parade their Muslimness and to keep harping on their Ummah-ness and their perceived "wrongs" from the past. If they keep doing that, sooner or later they will turn their leadership and power over to the fundos amongst them (and yes, there are a few!) like the Pakistanis have been in the process of doing (and so now even they are trying a bit harder to reclaim that power). Don't follow the doctrine of the Jinnah -- that Muslims and Hindus are separate nations because of their religion -- that is utter lunacy and a surefire way to disaster for the country at large and its Mussalmaans in particular. Instead, emphasize your Indianness, be proud of it, and work constructively to socially uplift your community and make it a proud component of the Hindustani society -- as well as a shining example to the world of what liberal Mussalmaans can acccomplish.

It would also be interesting to know how many non-Muslim places of worship have been razed to the ground in Pakistan since 1947.
As per Jinnah's ideology, Pakistan was supposed to be a place where even non Muslims can practice their faith without facing discrimination (perhaps I am wrong, correct me if so).
आलोक

vrv are you hpsauce?

vrv surcharged maybe, did they collect the bricks required.

ayodhya was the finest hour of hindu commoners reclaiming their sacred space that was usurped and defiled by momeen goons from the past.
hindu idolators must record such defilements and reclaim their sacred places .......especially ketas raj temples......

When India was going thru the financial hardships of post-Gulf War, Advani ran this self-destructive campaign to 'build' a magnificent temple in the spot where a non-functioning masjid was located. Sangh Parivar collected hundreds of crores of rupees from Indians and abroad for that purpose. We dont know who ate that money.

Every village in India was surcharged with frenzy to collect 'bricks' for the construction of Ram Temple. Bricks were made and taken to Ayodhya which they're 'never' going to use them as the temple not going to be built with bricks. Probably they would use those bricks for toilets near the temple but the bricks were consecrated and treated as godly objects then. Tensions were created for those useless bricks in each and every village.

The 'Toyota' rath yatra was undertaken that left trial of destruction of property and lives everywhere. Even the post-demolition of the monument left India with a big gash in terms of loss of lives, property and GDP. It also gave birth to a new force called Rapid Action Force (in terms of budget several dozen/hundred crores) that's meant to meet that challenges thrown by the communalists.

BJP came to power but they didnt build the temple. They no longer talk about it now as they say achieved what they wanted to i.e. getting power. The route they took to get power was most despicable.

So much was written and talked abt Ayodhya. I see it as nothing but power struggle of Hindu right-wingers whose thinking is rooted in the worldview of WW I & II eras.

N.B: I didn't read this article.

what India needs is not faultlines between 60% and 40% or 80% and 15% but 100% people thinking of themselves together. the chances of that on both sides is bleak even without politics because of inherited prejudices but under the pressures of electoral politics where u appeal to the lowest common denominator,impossible. democracy is not good always.

compare this to a situation in a nonreserved constitueny where u cannotget elected without appealing to people of different faith. only BJP has broken this trend now because they have managed to unite lower and upper cadte hindu who together form 80% of the pop. hindu mahasabha and jan sangh couldnot win because they didnt appeal to lower castes who saw them as oppresors and the upper castes never considered the dalits to be hindus at all until i think around 1900 when they started insisting that the british include them as hindus so that they as hindus could get more representaion in govt jobs and political representation. but still they were not considerd hindus in prvt and hence werent allowed in temples and were still untouchables

indias problem was there was a huge single party which was mostly hindu and would permanently be in power for the forseable future after independence and their was a mulim party which would permanently sit in opposition. had there been a multi party system or had there not been reserved constituencies in which there was an incentive to radicalize the constituency, because the constituency consisted of only people of one faith, and there was no incentive to appeal to people of different faith.

yeah but in 36/37 he received most of the muslim vote in UP, Bihar, bombay etc. In punjab and Bengal regional parties were strong. there were some mistakes made by congress provincial govts in the thrities. secondly muslim inteligentia had scared the public in 45, islam khatre main hai, aur hindu raj ajai ga, because they wanted a share in power and feared that they would become a permanent minority in opposition because of the structure of the political system, that is reserved constituencies and they were also scared of being swamped by hindu professional classes which were more numerous and better educated . lastly even in the elections of 45 no more than 3% or so of muslims had voting rights the vast majority did not.

Majumdar bhai, I'm referring to the author.

Bori mian,

muslims out of love for him welcomed him.

Yeah. Like in 1946 elections when a grand total of 1.4% Muslims voted for Nehru's INC!!!

Regards

You are right many of the riots were provoked by business rivalry, I remember reaing about moradabad that as the muslim artisans in the brass busines started doing well, and same in Bhiwandi where they were runing small textile looms and even recently in Gujarat and Bombay their business rivals instigated and burnt down their business. Indira by increasing Indias socialist orientation reduced the pie and made it a sum zero game.

Nehru didnt patronize mullahs, muslims out of love for him welcomed him. he took whatever steps he could to prevent riots after 47 when even he couldnt do much in Punjab and Delhi,haryana, rajisthatn. Indira gandhi actually didnt do anything during riots or after them to punish the guilty, naturally others after her followed her practice.

Bori mian,

when she didnt take any measures for alleviating economic conditions of muslims

Au contraire, she did everything possible to shatter India's economy and ruin almost everyone. Had Jwahirullah and Indira followed the East Asian model of promoting export oriented light industry- textiles, leather et al, India wud have been a different place altogether. And surely you wud know that Muslims-who consitute the bulk of India's artisan classes- wud have been beneficiaries of such an industrial policy.

Regards

she was the most powerful PM india had, when she didnt take any measures for alleviating economic conditions of muslims and on the contrary suppressed the reports that came out, how will anyother leader do anything now when the BJP is without anything being done allready shouting appeasement and royal treatment of muslims.

Bori mian,

32,34

I hold Com. Jwahirullah and his daughter responsible for the whole mess. They messed up the economy and patronised the worst kind of mullahs and thus completely discredited the INC brand after which they had no option but to resort to communalism to catch votes.

Regards

Bori mian,

Re: 32

I agree with your analysis.

I suspected you of being Paki, but ur Indian no doubt about that.

Regards

The whole rot was started by the congress which had been playing identity politics since the 70s, giving money to mullahs to issue fatwas in their favor before elections, make a big deal of eid receptions all sybolic bull while actually she suppressed all reports which showed true economic conditions of muslims and their proportion in govt, pvt sector etc. she never took any action against police personel and rioters in communal riots to keep right wing hindus happy and to show muslims that she was their only hope. she never implemented the recomendations of any of the commisions on riots right from 1969 onwards which could have nipped this problem in the bud.

In punjab she wanted to teach akalis a leson, in bangladesh she wanted to teach pakis a lesson and in sri lanka she wanted to keep lankas in place. Under her govt the biggest massacres of muslims took place 3000 in nellie assam, 2000 in ahmedabad in 69, over a thousand in moradabad in 1980, hundreds in meerut. she started the slide towards babri and later.

"It's not Ayodha, it's Ayodhya."

Ayodha, ayodhya, avudha - what difference does it make? I doubt the guy has ever been to India.

Dear Majumdar itbecame an issue in the mid 80s because the congress was playing soft communalism since its garibi hatao and socialist mantra had failed, Arun Nehru told Rajiv that he should do shilanyas to make up for Shah Bano, this was in keeping with his mother's bankrupt policies. she had a petty mind and couldnt think above her interests for the nation. The BJP felt that VP Singh and Laloo, Mulayam etc were going to surge with mandal, cong had its own base so they latched onto this issue and ran with it.

another example is that because BJPs core constituency of upper caste hindus was opposed to mandal iitially BJP opposed it but realising this would take away the more numerous lower caste votes and that mandal was popular among them it reversed its decision and stopped opposing it and grudingly supporting it.

It's not Ayodha, it's Ayodhya.

Bori, I sympathize with a great deal of what you are saying, but I also feel this sob shantanu datta is not friend of yours. You can take that at face value or reject it.

It was built on a mandir. The TOI and some other papers in their infinite wisdom took the discussion to "is there any proof of Ram"? To me, the being built on the mandir wasn't the point, the fact that it's over and done with is.
Enough evidence was found of it having been a mandir, but a Pakistani-pretending-to-be-Indian will not remember that.

Harishbhai,

This idiot

Who are you referring to? The author or Bori mian.

Bori mian,

Lal masjid;s leaders were fighting the govt, they are responsible for their own fate.

Your comments have been noted and will be duly forwarded to Mr. Baituallah Mehsud.

Regards

John_Galt, welcome back, if you're here I'll start a welcome thread on Unplugged.

Advani wanted to be PM and rightly believed that he was responsible for BJPs rise, along with sundry sadhus and sadhvis who went around the country side make incediary speeches and showing poisonous videos. Thats why he was severly dissapointed when Vajpayee became PM, since the nonBJP parties of the coalition wouldnot agree to him being made PM.

Sabh Kursi ka khel hai, awam aur mulk ki kis ko parwah

Rangeela, Bori, beej and others

Look, there are SO Many issues facing the Muslim communities everywhere today. Bori mentioned many of them. Real challenges. Babri Masjid was no doubt an issue - an important one, we understand that, and it needs to be kept in mind. It created a great deal of friction, and that too is important to keep in mind. But if we keep going back, we will NOT solve it. We will not have any more agreement than people aleady did. We will simply keep ourselves tied to a point in history without ever looking beyond that.

Tragedy is, Muslims are being taken for a bloody ride by wholesale fake symapthizers - people who have no respect for Muslims other than to suck their blood by harking on Babri Masjid for eternity. They are NO friends of Muslims. Shantanu Datta who claims that Muslims were inspired by Babri Masjid to demolish buddha stautue is certainly no friend of Muslims.

These are dishonest exploiters who can only hurt Muslims. Let's not make a ritual of everything and keep Muslims crying and weeping and wailing all the time. Frankly, if one really hated Muslims that is what one would want. keep those sods wailing and poor and hated by and separate from all.

Were I a Muslim, at some point in time, I would tell these poeple to go jump into a river.

is it just me or does anyone else remember babri masjid demolition preceded a not so gentle ethnic cleansing of pandits in a place called kashmir? not that two wrongs make a right but how can we talk about one without the other?

Bori mian,

The BJP needded an issue to counter Janata Dals Mandal card and congress's shilanayas and so whipped things up.

The controversy has been going on and off since mid 1800s and resurfaced in a big way in the mid 1980s when JD and Mandal were non issues.

Regards

This is a lie that it was built on a mandir, the archaeological survey of india which is staffed mostly by nonmuslims dug several meters under the ground and found no evidence of a hindu temple, or pillars or foundation. The BJP needded an issue to counter Janata Dals Mandal card and congress's shilanayas and so whipped things up.

BJ2 I am a humanist , dont presume things about others without knowing them, dont judge a book by its cover and call names.

The masjid-built-on-a-mandir should have been left alone because it was history and cannot be changed. It should have been a reminder to all Indians that we can only be conquered when there are divisions among us.
Now this is history too. Let it go. Stop picking at the scab, else you are doing exactly the same thing as those who caused it to fall down.

This idiot has been furiously contributing article after article for the past few days but not one has garnered more than a dozen interacts. This is perhaps his way of seeking attention.

Re: # 17

Bori miaN, I did not call you a communalist. I said that you do not cry for anybody -- unless your own ass gets whipped, in which case you cry like a little baby and you cry like there was no tomorrow. Hope the clarification helps!!

BJ2 dont u dare call me a comunalist, I am a true patriot unlike you, kalchakra, GT, Majumdar and Advani .

Bori miaN cries for nobody except when his own ass gets whipped!

--------------------------------------

Eklavya, breaking down the masjid was one of the most asinine acts of the Advani (a fact not lost upon that dim nitwit brain of his -- hence the resignation that followed). It created a significant intercommunity rift, it failed to get him anything as far as the mandir was concerned, it created riot situations all over the country.

All of the above...for what?! What a nutcase!!

But the most serious damage it created was by making the Indian Muslims feel insecure. It created the seed which provided the pretext for the Mumbai riots, the Godhra tragedy, and the post-Godhra days of infamy.

The structure itself was perhaps no big deal. But the agenda behind pushing the demolition was at minimum mischievous and bordering on evil.

I too pray and hope that our Mussalman bhais would put this tragedy behind them and keep proceeding and making progress and make their country proud of its Muslim citizens -- far more so than the Pakistanis can ever be proud of its own Muslims!

Babri masjid had been lying in waste for over 50 years, like hundreds of mosques in Punjab and Gujarat. The politicians both hindu and muslim made it into something more than a place of worship. Ayodhya hardly has any muslims left, whereas, nearby Faizabad has many mosques sans namazis. It's time to forget the past mistakes and move on.
Masjid to bana di shab bhar mein iman ki hararat walon ne
munn apna purana paapi hai barson mein namazi bunn na saka

Lal masjid;s leaders were fighting the govt, they are responsible for their own fate. I do feel sorry for the children and youngster who were brainwashed by these leaders. I suispect some such leaders also brainwashed the mumbai terrorists. I am soory for their victims, but also for this Kasab, he seems like any desi boy, asking for Bachchan movies and nonveg, wanting to meet his mother, I wonder what kind of brainwashing videos he was shown to make him so full of hate. but its no different from the brainwashing done in sangh parivar schools and labs. I have seen the whole state of gujarat mouth obscenities and fantastic tales about muslims. the bjp has changed history textbooks in states they rule to tell fantastic tales of muslim hordes and plunder and forced conversions, even when the visible presence of 85% non muslims in the country belies their claims.

Bori mian,

Do you also shed tears for the shahadat of Lal Masjid? Or was that kosher 'cos that was shahided by fellow Muslims?

Regards

Beej bhaiyya

What's this with you liberal Hindus? Are Muslims the only ones who have pain and anguish? Or are they your daammaad or mine? And are we going to celebrate their every "pain and anguish" till the end of time?

Do you want us all to begin to fully play a game of competitve pain and anguish?

Enough already.

Babri Masjid Shaheed Terey kuche pe baRe ruswaa hua hum,

Par Islam zinda hota hai har karbala ke baad


shahadat hai matloob e maqsood e momin
na maal e ghanimat
na kishwar ka shahi

martyrdom is the throbbing desire of the true faithful
neither the bounty of battle
nor the glory of power

Eklavya, the pain and anguish to many Indian Mussalmaans on that terrible day was very real. It should not be trivialized.

Yeah, so what's the problem with that, shattered sun? Must everyone care for all this sh%yt?

Enough of black day! You guys can keep crying over it until the day you want. Don't expect the rest of us to care.

You have turned it into a professional joke.

December 6 was indeed a black day. However, the bhaichara among Indians is stronger. It has held!

Having spoke with an extreme right wing Hindu at some Indian dinner, it was interesting to get his/their perspective on this issue. In his mind, the history of Islam in India was an abomination, a curse that befell India creating untold levels of death, genocide, communalism, subjugation, blah, blah. I think these guys would not mind at all of Indian islamic history was eviscerated. I would admit the narrative is quite seductive to those inclined to believe it. Yesterday it was the Babri Mosque. Tommorrow, Fatehpur Sikri, Agra Fort, Red Fort, Aurgazeb's Tomb??

"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler

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"When the white man came, we had the land and they had the Bible; now we have the Bible and they have the land".
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Good one:-)

But shantanu dutta will not be able to tell you why the Christians fried Mayans like chickens???

Actually, Muslims and Christians can only ask questions and then run, as a religion the two have been so proud of their idiotic efforts for saving their religion that even Satan will feel humble and human.

great article shanty, you should send it to The Hindu as an op-ed. generally i agree ..some small issues like 906 as date for taj mahal hotel..are you refering to hijri calendar? also imo its humpty dumpty.

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Great ArticleShantanu Dutta

More voices like you India certainly will bring good change

Its really a fresh breeze of air when we Pakistanis hear such sensible voices fromIndia

May Allah bring peace in this region

Regards

ok, I take that back shantanu mian. May be you have some thing to back up your claim:

"On the 6th of December in Ayodha, a bunch of Hindus destroyed a Muslim monument. In March 2001, a bunch of Muslims having learnt their lesson well it would seem from Ayodha, blew up the Bamian Buddhas"

Please share what you know because it would be interesting.

Shantanu bhai, I am sorry to read that you cannot rise above your Christian bigotry. Bigotry is actually fine, but you hurt yourself by resorting to plain untruths and being brazen about them.

I am just humbly reminding you. If you keep going down this semtic route, you are not doing Indian Christians (who have been good citizens of India until now) many favors.