A Just War?

Thanks, It was nice discussing all this stuff with you.
And yes, faith can be a dangerous affair.
But then no faith at all can also be as dangerous as believe in God and the urge to finish God's bussiness.
Maybe in some other thread we can discuss it.

Thanks tahmed32 too for the welcome.

Re: # 45
I actually agree with you more than you think. I am trying to make a point, that belief in individual rights and individual freedom, aka liberalism, does not necessarily mean that you must always be opposed to war and the accompanying 'collateral damage'

'In the name of Islam' is an overused phrase. If someone is doing something in my name, then I'd want to do something about it. Second, I think its 'faith' in general, and the belief in an afterlife in particular, that is the major problem. For some reason, in current times, Muslims tend to have more 'faith' than other religions.. More fundamentally, I think that the belief that there is some 'greater' interest than individual self-interest is dangerous, because it devalues human life.

As far as I know, the United Nations may make resolutions, but it has no 'ultimate' authority over national sovereignty.

"One lesson learned, is that America has not lost a single life on US soil since 9/11."

That is because America has no shared border with either Iraq or
Afghanistan. It should not have been so hard to miss.

"India has continually suffered at the hands of these monsters, and something must be done."

I agree that something must be done. But the focus should always be on
the monsters. You can't hold people responsible for the actions of
the monsters. Doing this will not be very different from what
the monsters do.
To heal the sufferings of Mumbai, you can't put the
entire human spectrum of the subcontinent to sufferings.
With all the difference between radicalism and irrationality, the
point of the previous post was that the terrorists justify their actions
the same way you tried the justification of the war on people of
Pakistan.

"As much as people don't want to admit it, there is something peculiar about Islam which allows such despicable acts."

It is unfortunate that the terrorists use the name of Islam. But the
rational people like you should not forget that close to quarter of
the world population believes in Islam, and Islam is there for some
1400 years. If something peculiar about Islam made 10 kids create a
hell in Mumbai that spanned 3 days and engulfed 200 lives, then how do
you explain the humanity on the face of the earth in the presence of a
billion believers of Islam?

"The right to secession is not present in the Indian constitution"

Indian constitution does not apply to the territories that are
recognized disputed by the United Nations.

"First the fact that the opponents have nuclear weapons is irrelevant
to whether the war is Just. Nuclear weapons only come into play in
determining strategy, not justification."

I liked it. But waging a war against the people who support the
government that is unable to control the militants is not very
different from waging a war against the people that support the
governments that are unable to solve the political problems.

Re: # 41
I think I've been pretty clear that force should never be used blindly. At the same time, justice must be served. One lesson learned, is that America has not lost a single life on US soil since 9/11. India has continually suffered at the hands of these monsters, and something must be done.

Terrorists are people who respond to political problems in a non-discriminatory irrational manner, not radical. The American revolutionaries were radical for the time, but they were not terrorists although they fought by force of arms, rather than politics. Its easily arguable that the situation of India/Pakistan before Independence was far worse than that of the Kashmiri's, Palestinians or other so called 'freedom struggles,' yet the response then was expressly non-violent. Even the 'terrorists' of the time, like Bhagat Singh (an atheist), went to great lengths to avoid killing civilians. As much as people don't want to admit it, there is something peculiar about Islam which allows such despicable acts.

The right to secession is not present in the Indian constitution, and therefore in order to achieve 'freedom' Kashmiris must act through the democratic process and alter the constitution through national consensus. Otherwise, the Indian government, as representative of the people, has NO AUTHORITY to surrender an inch of land. It is especially required to guarantee human rights and democracy within Kashmir for eternity.. I agree its not doing a good job right now, but to leave it to its own fate is unlawful.

"A war between two nuclear powers isnt a just war"

First the fact that the opponents have nuclear weapons is irrelevant to whether the war is Just. Nuclear weapons only come into play in determining strategy, not justification.

Second, a war between two nuclear powers need not turn into a nuclear war, if the correct strategies are used. In fact, this is highly unlikely in a war between rational actors, since to use nukes is to ensure self-destruction. Every other option is preferable to death for rational people, including being conquered. Now.. the only question is whether the Pakistani government consists of mainly rational individuals.

you cant be serious . A war between two nuclear powers isnt a just war . its a catastrophe . Effective diplomacy an international pressure on pakistan to act on the "non-state actors" is the only credible solution .

@ arjunb

"This does not mean that force should never be used in self-defense"

Force must never be used blindly. In order to catch handful of culprits, entire human communities should not be put into fire. There are lessons to be learned in America's war against terrorism before India starts its war.


"ultimately someone has to be held accountable. If not the terrorists.. the State which harbors them.. if not the State.. the people who tolerate the State."

Terrorists are the people who respond to political problems in a radical manner.
And some of them might be justifying their actions using the same reasoning that you have put forward.


"If the terrorists were really hated by the citizens, even if only as much as the Danish cartoonists were hated, terrorism would be on its last legs. But it isn't"

It is. The terrorists are as much hated as you can imagine. Unfortunately certain inappropriate actions by the international community in repose to handful of terrorists have pushed a considerable more number of people toward terrorism.



"The 'Freedom Fighters' of Kashmir DO have a level of support as well."

It's true. But the way the terrorist-attacks harm the freedom struggle in Kashmir and push it to background, is sufficient evidence that the terrorists are not interested in the freedom of Kashmir.
Moreover the Mumbai incident after the announcement by Mr. Obama that he will be interested in resolving the Kashmir conflict also raises certain doubts.


"The 'Terrorists' may not have popular support, but the 'charities' and 'schools' and other institutions by which they gain recruits and financial backing do have some level of popular support."

The only support these organizations had, was due to the fact these were involved in welfare activities, and because these identified themselves with the Kashmir cause.

Re: # 38

right... but don't expect pakis to understand and acknowledge this simple fact... they hate india more than they love pakiland and they are not going make amends unless forced to do so...

Another note.. I don't believe that India can act with impunity and expect no consequences. Severe consequences, of the most bloody type, flow from any decision to use force. This does not mean that force should never be used in self-defense. Violence is only appropriate when all non-violent methods of recourse have failed. But this rarity of cause is precisely why, when appropriate, force is also a requirement.

"Terrorists do not have popular support."

The 'Terrorists' may not have popular support, but the 'charities' and 'schools' and other institutions by which they gain recruits and financial backing do have some level of popular support. The 'Freedom Fighters' of Kashmir DO have a level of support as well. I agree, it would be BETTER if Pakistani citizens rose against these institutions and euphemisms which provide the foundation for terrorism, but it is also unlikely. If the terrorists were really hated by the citizens, even if only as much as the Danish cartoonists were hated, terrorism would be on its last legs. But it isn't, and ultimately someone has to be held accountable. If not the terrorists.. the State which harbors them.. if not the State.. the people who tolerate the State.

Re: # 35
"I don't see the point here. You handed over plenty of suspects (Paki citizens at that) to the US, even though the country's judicial system has the OJ Simpson case to its credit."

Firstly, a mistake is no justification to repeat the mistake. Secondly, inspite of all her glory, democracy, values and respect, India is not America.
It's true that we are on the receiving end at the moment and have to cope with it, but things would have been very different if it would still have been Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

"yet no one is prepared to even admit Pakistan's role despite conclusive evidence that the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks came from their country"

If I go to a pub tonight and beat up some poor chap over there, will you say this is Pakistan's role as ocean has come from Pakistan?
The only reason some people doubt the story told by India is the fact that India had lied previously on similar occasions. If this is not a lie this time, we stand with you and demand that the culprits be brought to justice, irrespective of their nationality, ideology or religion.

"As for your insinuation that India is behind the violence in Balochistan, why don't you come up with proof instead of just guessing?"

It will be an insult for your secret services if a poor chap like me could come up with the proof of their wrong doings. No? But rest assured. The people who run the governments and secret services know a lot more than what we two can discuss on this forum. And obviously guns and money do not grow on trees.

The point of the previous post was that the people of Paksiatn (and hopefully that of India) accept each other, and are willing to live in co-existance, and so the mullahs, politicians, and leaders on either side should stop creating hatred and governments should address our real problems instead of making missiles and bombs.

#35 harish_hyd #35 "You handed over plenty of suspects (Paki citizens at that) to the US"

...and it was this lawless handing over of suspects to the US was one of the driving forces behind the movement that led to musharraf being forced out of office. India and Pakistan dont even have an extradition treaty.

PS: Welcome to chowk, ocean.

#34 by ocean

It would have been a lot easier if the past record of India in this matter would have been clear.

I don't see the point here. You handed over plenty of suspects (Paki citizens at that) to the US, even though the country's judicial system has the OJ Simpson case to its credit.

I have this request to make to Indian people. The people of Pakistan condemn any terrorist attacks on Indian soil. If there are some crooked people in our secret services(*), and are involved in this matter, we stand with you and demand that these be brought forward and punished. But please stop associating the people of Pakistan with these terrorists. This only helps their evil cause.

(*) not to forget that some elements are providing weapons and money to the people who are creating problems in Baluchistan and NWFP. It's not very hard to guess who these elements can be.

Agreed, the people of Pakistan may have very little say in this, but isn't it a fact that when Danish newspapers printed the Prophet Mohammad cartoons, virtually every city/town in Pakistan went up in arms, yet no one is prepared to even admit Pakistan's role despite conclusive evidence that the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks came from their country and the lone survivor Ajmal Qasab came from the village of Faridkot in Okara district. Many Pakis (at least on this forum) actually denied that there is any village by that name and instead pointed to the city of Faridkot in Punjab, India.

As for your insinuation that India is behind the violence in Balochistan, why don't you come up with proof instead of just guessing?

Re: # 29

"If Pakistan fulfills its obligations and hands over the suspects to the Indian judicial system"

It would have been a lot easier if the past record of India in this matter would have been clear.

", including those individuals who may have popular support,"

Terrorists do not have popular support. (Ironically, the way the Indian media, and the people from India on these forums are behaving, the focus is shifting away from the terrorists).

"However if Pakistan does not go through, then I say war is not only justified, it is imperative to wage it.. regardless of the costs to any parties involved."

It will be playing in the hands of LeT, becuase this is exactly what they want. It will be a dream come true for the terrorists.

I have this request to make to Indian people. The people of Pakistan condemn any terrorist attacks on Indian soil. If there are some crooked people in our secret services(*), and are involved in this matter, we stand with you and demand that these be brought forward and punished. But please stop associating the people of Pakistan with these terrorists. This only helps their evil cause.

(*) not to forget that some elements are providing weapons and money to the people who are creating problems in Baluchistan and NWFP. It's not very hard to guess who these elements can be.

"But Pakistan was created for wrong reasons (besically for people of one religion for fear of another religion that they have been ruling before)"

If a lot of people on your side share the same opinion, then this justifies the creation of Pakistan.

" and it exists for wrong reasons (more for giving nuclear bomb to Islamic world and promoting Arab slavery than for any human cause or value)..."

How do you value human cause? What will you have to say for the home, identity, existence of 160 million human beings?

Naddem-Shahzad ji

You see when you push a nation between the Rock and the Hard place that is what is going to happen and you Constantly make threats about "Jihad", "Bleeding through thousand cuts", "killing the Kaffirs and Islam ruling the world" and blah, blah, blah...People are going to get very pissed off and they will take this attitude.

regards

#19 by Nadeem_Shahzad

I see Shiv Sevaks and BJP activist are here too.

It is Shiv Sainks not Shiv Sevaks Nadeem yaar. So are you from the Lashkar-e-Taiba?

#22 by Nadeem_Shahzad

You see when you push a nation between the Rock and the Hard place that is what is going to happen and you Constantly make threats about "Surgical Strikes", "Economic Choke hold", "running the Pakistani river beds dry" and blah, blah, blah...People are going to get very pissed off and they will take this attitude.

Nadeem yaar, I can understand why you feel the way you feel, but will you ever understand that attacks like those on the Indian Parliament, the Mumbai CST and hotels, bomb blasts at random marketplaces and parks make us feel the way we do?

So when the Thermonuclear war breaks out between India and Pakistan and over 100 million be dead on both sides and than may be you will understand that there are really no winners in the war. Only thing that wins is the stupidity with which you were making threats against the other nation.

It is like this: when the neighborhood bully constantly taunts you and even hurts you as you go about your business, some or the other day, you're going to retaliate, even if it means you're going to get involved in a fight much bigger than the taunts you've ever been subjected to all these days and in the process, get hurt too. That's how we feel right now.

Romair,

india had stopped the water from chenab, against the world bank agreements.....

That is a blatant falsehood. The Baglihar dam hardly has that kind of storage capacity, the low water levels has prolly more to do with natural factors than dam.

it anexed a pro-pakistan hyderabad.....it annexed a pakistan leaning kashmir.....it annexed junagarh which was to be part of pakistan......

It is funny isn't it that you guys say that Junagadh and Hyderabad shud have gone to Pakistan becuase the ruler wanted it and Kahsmir too becuase the people wnated it. Sad part is that MAJ (pbuh) and LAK showed as much IQ as you do over the states issue and ended up with eggs on their faces.

Regards

Note that in no way I am not advocating war at this moment. If Pakistan fulfills its obligations and hands over the suspects to the Indian judicial system, including those individuals who may have popular support, then there is no reason to use violence. It appears that Pakistan is, grudgingly, on the way to some sort of compliance, so hopefully war will be unnecessary. However if Pakistan does not go through, then I say war is not only justified, it is imperative to wage it.. regardless of the costs to any parties involved.

romair, what you wrote is quite true. Most Indians do not think that India has actually focused on undermining Pakistan as a nation state. And this may well be the exact opposite of what Pakistanis believe.

So that is a problem, right there!

#25 Posted by Romair on

Pakistanis have a simple deceitful way of thinking that India didn't even exist before 1947, while for whole world, Greeks/ Arabs, Alexandar or German philosophers, for everybody else India exists almost since ever.

It should be easy to understand for even a plain idiot that India lost a lot while creating Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.

Pakistan didn't even deserve existence, still you need more for it? Muslims ruled India in minority and when India decided to become democratic and they feared that in democracy Hindus will rule over them, and so they decided to separate. Such pathetic idiots don't deserve the amount of land they have got.



India hasn't done enough to Pakistan, the way Pakistan behaves like an errand child willing to kill and destroy almost anything that tries to tell it any truth, including history (and that enjoys lies and Arab slavery), it should actually be slapped properly. What India did is just protecting itself in the form of separation of Bangladesh.
India doesn't know how to handle such a destructive nation and because it has lot of its own problems it doesn't have much time to handle this insane Islamic neghbour.

#22 Posted by Nadeem_Shahzad on

If Pakistani in general were that intelligent to understand what you say, they wouldn't have been doing what they have been doing for last 60 years and it would have taken a few hours for Pakistani police to interrogate ther LET leaders and tell world what they did and how they did. India has one surviving militant, Pakistan has hundreds of thousands of them, how difficult it is for Pakistan to find any information?? :-) But Pakistan was created for wrong reasons (besically for people of one religion for fear of another religion that they have been ruling before) and it exists for wrong reasons (more for giving nuclear bomb to Islamic world and promoting Arab slavery than for any human cause or value)...

Eklavya #: "Of course, Pakistani state should, must, and will reciprocate (if it doesn't do so already.)"

...from your comments, one gets the feeling that people in india seem to think that india hasn't done much to undermine pakistan.......

.....is there a recognition, amongst the common indian, that there is a long list of actions, from 47 onwards, that india has been taking, till today to totally destroy pakistan......even today, while india/pak negotiations were going one, india had stopped the water from chenab, against the world bank agreements.....

......in your opinion, what more could india have done since 47......it anexed a pro-pakistan hyderabad.....it annexed a pakistan leaning kashmir.....it annexed junagarh which was to be part of pakistan......

it laid the foundations for cross-border terrorism in south asia, by sending terrorists into east pakitan, and then split the country......

........by the way, how could pakistan respond and reciprocate, to undermine pakistan........

It's funny how Pakis start it and run around blaming India. What a pathetic bunch of kinders.

Re: # 22

Okay, if you are that afraid of mutually assured destruction then why are you not giving up Jehad? Or is MAD your license to keep needling India as you like?

Shouldn't you heed your own advice?

Mutually Assured Destruction buddy boy !

"Hum to doobay hain sanam
Tuhaim bhi lay doobain gay"

You see when you push a nation between the Rock and the Hard place that is what is going to happen and you Constantly make threats about "Surgical Strikes", "Economic Choke hold", "running the Pakistani river beds dry" and blah, blah, blah...People are going to get very pissed off and they will take this attitude. So when the Thermonuclear war breaks out between India and Pakistan and over 100 million be dead on both sides and than may be you will understand that there are really no winners in the war. Only thing that wins is the stupidity with which you were making threats against the other nation.

Re: # 19

Again where is this bravado coming from? Do you know something the rest of do not? Or is it just your misapprehension that 1 muslim = 10 hindus?

Since Jehadis are STATE-LESS and Pakistanis dis-own them- India has a right to eliminate them without considering any issues of Pakistani sovereignty ....

I see Shiv Sevaks and BJP activist are here too. OK I am a betting man. Roll the dice and take your best shot at Pakistan and find out what happens. You injun are suffering from this euphoric sense of Superiority complex that you will wave the magic wand and Pakistan will be on its knees. Go ahed bring it on, what are you going to dish out that you have not dished out in the past?...we have heard all this before.

If Jehadis are NON-STATE actors - and even PAkistan considers them stateless - then India can take these state-less pirates anytime through air strikes!!!

Re: # 13 Nadeem_Shahzad :

You are absolutely right about war on Pakistan. Only madmen and idiots of Hindoostan are thinking about it. So far nobody is after war there!

Leave Pakistanto itself. It might collapse byitself under the assaults of domestic Jihadis, morbid nationalists and corrupt politicians and Army. Only Allah can help her.

I have a better idea! How about putting Pakistan under the trusteeship of United Nations or OIC. Any takers!
Kamath

Thanks Majumdar bhai for reminding me of that famous interview of Pakistan's founder with Margaret Bourke White in which he said (of course I'm paraphrasing) Pakistan, as the new world's premier rentier state, would be willing to sell itself to the highest bidder. If Indians can shell out the Rupee, Pakis would be willing to kill their brothers.

Nadeem bhai,

.....The Radical elements will have a free hand and it will spread so deeply from Pakistan into India, that you Indians would wish that you never have been born......

That is by no means the only outcome possible. The other option of course is that India can use some monetary incentives to persuade these "radical elements" to direct their jihad against fellow Pakis. And do remember these "radical elements" have been friends with us Hindoos since the Khilafat days.

Regards

#13 by Nadeem_Shahzad

When Indians are friendly (or at least trying to be), you Pakis take that as a sign of weakness and try stepping on our toes at every opportunity you get. When we're mad at you, you start blackmailing us by saying the nukes will destroy us both or that if Pakistan is destabilized, radical elements will pour into India and make it a hellhole. Nice try, but it ain't working. India is like an Elephant; patient to the extreme levels, but when it runs out of it, it will be unstoppable. Luckily for you, India's enormous reservoir of patience hasn't run out just yet, but you can rest assured when it does, none of the doomsday scenarios you conjure up will hold it back.

All you Injuns must understand this very well. Unstable Pakistan is going to be 10 times worse of a headache for India than it is now. If Pakistan destabilizes, the rule of law is going to go away (whatever left of it)and guess what? The Radical elements will have a free hand and it will spread so deeply from Pakistan into India, that you Indians would wish that you never have been born. So the whole planning and wishful thinking of economically choking Pakistan would play right into the hand of extremist elements who are ready to take their pound of flash from India. India is doing a fire dance on the Powder keg, if it goes off, just because you have accidentally set your tail on fire, you won't have IBMs and HPs and Microsoft coming over to Bharat and investing their anymore.

Nadeem, a military attack is unnecessary but from India's point of view, all Pakistanis should be united and no distinctions should be made among them.

The reason for that is that those Pakistanis who do not attack India have little sway over those who do, and merely act as a fig leaf.

So ideally, India should treat all Pakistanis alike (which also gives Pakistanis an opportunity to join hands and become one) and attempt to undermine all of Pakistan so the entire support base for Pakistani terrorist infrastructure can be deprived of state support. With Pakistani economic situation being dire, India should make a sustained and vigorous international effort to economically strangle the Pakistani state by raising its costs in as many creative ways as possible. Of course, Pakistani state should, must, and will reciprocate (if it doesn't do so already.)

Whether Indians would take that step is another matter.

Re: # 8

Where is all this bravado coming from? You should all be scared of a full scale war just like I am.

"If it does not do one or the other in a reasonable length of time, India must ignore any internal arguments for 'pragmatism' or 'proportionate' action and punish Pakistan as a whole."

The culprits of Mumbay attacks must be caught and brought to justice. There is no question about it. But what the author is saying is something like this. 'India must ignore any internal arguments and proceed towards the possible annihilation of couple of million human beings'.

Maybe it will be a lot better if we just focus on identifying the culprits, sharing the intelligence, and bringing the people responsible for the attack to justice.

In the event of a war between the two South Asian neighbors matters will quickly get out of hand and it could quickly esclate into a full scale nuclear exchange. The penalty of procrastination is heavy so both parties will feel compelled to strike while they still have maximum retaliatory capacity left. This is particularly true for Pakistan.

Pakistan can not stave off the tide of a full scale conventional Indian attack for longer than 48 to 72 hours. In the event of a forceful Indian conventional attack a 'first strike' strategy is an absolute given. The so-called 'hair-trigger' defense doctrine initially calls for use of tactical nuclear weapons used against invading Indian troop concentrations ON PAKISTANI SOIL. Critics of this school of thought point out that there simply isn't the surplus capacity to do so and still have a credible strategic deterrence left in place. Therefore the initial posture HAS to be M. A. D. If that does transpire, Pakistan will be completely annhialated, while India will be extremely devastated also. About 30 million Pakistanis and about 150 million Indians could die. But those will be the lucky ones. The living will envy the dead.

The penis wavers in both India and Pakistan will have nothing left at which to wave their shrivelled up Lullys.

"If it does not do one or the other in a reasonable length of time, India must ignore any internal arguments for 'pragmatism' or 'proportionate' action and punish Pakistan as a whole".

What kind of Crap is this?....First of all, you injuns should stop blabering like attacking Pakistan is going to be like a walk in the park. Second, you injuns must understand that India is not USA and Pakistan in not a rag tag country like Iraq or Afghanistan. You might be able to start the war but you are not going to be able to finish it. Attacking Pakistan will galvinzed the enitre Pakistani nation, each and every Pakistani will make it his mission in life to destory india. Go ahead and attack them, you will be doing them a favor by waking them from the deep slumber they are in now and watch what happens.

I wish india would try something like that. The size of defense forces in pakistan will swell from a million to 160 million. Wahabis and secularists all, will be united against the enemy. :)

Although, this new found cocky indian attitude is largely a farce as it does not have the guts required to attack another sovereign nation. I find these types of threats amusing. India knows certainly better then any other country in the world, that Pakistan isn't Palestine and Indian isn't Israel.

Pakistan Zindabad.

Not many in the world are opposed to india finishing off the center of all terror. The 9/11 ones to london bombers to the mumbai ones have been traced to pakistan.

The question is only one of timing. India should resize pakistan, but this is not the time. The NWFP will have to be free and and the paki troops should withdraw. Then karachi should be in flames. It may take a couple of years and india will strike.

The world will be free of that monstrocity created by TNT. TNT is comparable to the ideology of that man with the funny mush in europe, the solution as before is in resizing.

The first step was dome in 1971. It has to be completed. It is the ideology of TNT, and one has to deal with it at that level. Those photos of that man should be treated the same way

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy

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The Times of India -- today
India to share Mumbai evidence once probe ends
13 Dec 2008, 1149 hrs IST, PTI


NEW DELHI: Voicing scepticism over Pakistan acting decisively against terrorists operating from its soil, Pranab Mukherjee has said such elements have been "let off" in the past after some initial action.

"Therefore we shall have to see whether these (actions by Pakistan) are taken to their logical conclusion," he said, asking Islamabad to ensure that the terror infrastructure is dismantled completely.

Reacting to Islamabad's demand for evidence of the involvement of the Pakistan-based elements in the Mumbai attacks, Mukherjee said India was ready to do so but not at this juncture when investigations were yet to be concluded.

"We can make available whatever evidences we have. In this case, we are also investigating, we have not come to any conclusion. Therefore at this juncture, perhaps, it would be premature to share the evidences," Mukherjee told a news channel.

He refused to comment on the current crackdown on terror groups in Pakistan, while noting that similar actions took place in the aftermath of the attack on Parliament in 2001.

"Almost similar actions were taken at the initial stage when the international pressure was mounted. After that it was let off," he said, adding that he was "waiting to see" that these steps are pursued seriously.

"I am waiting to see ... the infrastructure facilities available to terrorists are totally dismantled and the outlawed and banned organisations do not reappear in their new name with the new signboards but with the same old faces."

His remarks follow Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's statement in Parliament on Thursday that the international community has to be galvanised into "dealing sternly and effectively with the epicentre of terrorism, which is located in Pakistan."

Mukherjee said the "non-state actors" Pakistan has been referring to as behind the terror attacks "live and function" within the territory of that country.

"That is why, repeatedly, I said elements from Pakistan. That is a phrase I have used meticulously. I would not like to be more specific unless definitive conclusion is arrived at by the investigating agencies," he said.

The minister's comments come amid a crackdown launched by Pakistan against the Jamaat-ud Dawa, the front organisation of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) blamed for the Mumbai attacks, after the UN Security Council designated the outfit as a terrorist group.

Mukherjee noted that in response to the demarche issued by India, Pakistan said it was considering "various aspects" on action to be taken and planning to send a high-level delegation here.

In the demarche, he said he has sought action against two categories of persons -- those who have committed crime in India and have taken shelter in Pakistan, and Pakistani citizens indulging in terrorist activities in India.

"Some people who have committed crime in India and have taken shelter in Pakistan like Dawood Ibrahim. We are asking the Pakistan authorities to hand him over to Indian authorities so that he can be tried as per Indian laws here.

"There are persons who are Pakistan citizens, who are indulging in terrorist activities in India. Let them be arrested and tried as per Pakistan law," Mukherjee said.

The minister said he did not understand the difficulty Pakistan has in handing over Masood Azhar to India. "He was in Indian custody. We had to hand over him to hijackers of the Indian plane in Kandahar. He is available in Pakistan. He is seen on television screens in Pakistan. I do not know what difficulty Pakistan has (in handing him over)."

"Pakistan government did not demand his (Azhar's) return. Hijackers had demanded that you release him. (If) Pakistan government cannot hand him over to us what is the point in keeping him under house arrest," Mukherjee asked.

On whether Pakistan has sought consular access to Ajmal Amir Iman, the lone surviving terrorist arrested during the Mumbai attacks, he said India has not received any official request.

"To my knowledge it has not reached me. I do not know whether it has reached to the lower level. I will find it out," Mukherjee said.

"Are they saying the man is a Pakistani citizen. I do not know. Have they claimed the dead bodies, I do not know," he said, pointing out that "everything is appearing in the media."

Mukherjee asserted that the government will take all steps to protect the territorial integrity of the country but ruled out war as a solution to the problem.

Asked on how long would India wait, he said "it depends on how fast, how quickly Pakistan responds or whether they respond at all or not. Therefore it will not be possible for me to indicate any time frame right now."

On the Joint Anti-Terror Mechanism, Mukherjee said four meetings had taken place since its establishment but "nothing has been produced."

Asked whether the mechanisms have failed, he said "I do not want to come to any conclusion. But I think, whatever they have committed, whatever they are to do let them do it first."

Mukherjee noted that Pakistan had twice given the assurance at the highest level of not allowing use of its territory to carry out activities against India.

"We hope and expect that the new dispensation which has come in Pakistan through democratic means, will fulfil their commitment. That is our hope and expectation," he said.

Asked whether it was difficult to deal with several centres of power in Pakistan, Mukherjee said "It may be difficult but I have no option. I cannot change the internal mechanism of Pakistan."

On Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari's article in an American newspaper, he said it speaks of the agony of a person who himself is a victim of terrorist act.

Contending that everybody will have sympathy with him but his sentiments would remain just the same if Pakistan does not follow "words by proper action".

"It is not a question of a person or individual... What role he plays as president of Pakistan to fulfil the commitment he gave to our prime minister is important. Words must be followed by proper action. It will remain mere sentiment (if there is no action). It will produce nothing," Mukherjee said.

Mukherjee also made it clear that he was not interested in having a trial by media on the terror attacks.

"These are matters of investigation. After investigation, the matter is taken to court. Due process of law and procedure established by law should follow.

"Therefore, I am not in a position to share any of the information. It is for the media to find out," he said.

This piece better not have been written by arjun69 aka arJ. Edgar Hoover...

Who added the question mark to the title ? Was it chowk staff because they couldn't really let an article asking for war against Pakistan be published without questioning it ?

Good case Mr Vasan, but a war though perfectly justified may not be necessary, if we do the following:

http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/60906

"Permanent , publicly declared , open and active enmity with Pakistan until the day it's character as Jihadi state is ended. That in a single sentence should be our policy"