The Nightmare Must End

Re: # 272

pepe,

.... you are right in pointing out that there is not a whole lot of room in islam for the 'jostling' of contrary viewpoints ...... the boundaries are narrowly defined and those who challenge them are quickly declared murtids, heretics or ahmedis and beheaded .......

........ even the most highbrow paki tv talk shows that purport to encourage debate between liberal and conservative scholars end up discussing inanities like the role of jinns (including masadi) in higher education ....... nobody, not a single soul, in an islamic country has the gonads to even mention the possibility of separation of mosque and state and everyone, including tahmed's civil society agrees that the koran must be the basis of the constitution ....... they are too scared to suggest anything else ...........

as i said ... verily, we are fckued

Re: # 262 rf786

"...but then again these leaders are giving press conferences, interviews, conducting FM Radio stations and yet the relevant authorities (Pakistani and US) cannot find their targets?..."

rf786 check out Ahmed Rashid's book, 'Descent into Chaos: The United States and the Failure of Nation-Building in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Central Asia'. Click on:

http://www.amazon.com/Descent-into-Chaos-Disaster-Afghanistan/dp/01431155 7X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234738832&sr=8-1#reader

and then click on the 'Excerpts' on the left. You will find out how the ISI collaborated with the Taliban to kick Hamid Karzai out of Pakistan because his popularity with the Popalzai tribe in Kandahar was proving too much for Mullah Omar to bear.

Re: # 259 Tahmed

Agree with most of your post.

"...that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture..."

That is a debatable point. Many can rightly say that it is precisely because Hinduism is not rigidly doctrinaire (and the chauvinists are but one stream in a larger river jostling for space with other contrary viewpoints) that acceptance of Western ideas has been easier than in the case of Islamic societies where the debate on doctrine is settled. This is not to say that there are no chauvinists - there are. But, they have to compete for mindshare with others.

Re: # 266

ajeya mian,

.... thank you for correctly interpreting what i am trying to tell the blockhead tahmed ..... sometimes it is hard to get through to this ahmedi hating wahabi ...........

......... and thank you for pointing out that none of the islamic countries from morocco to indonesia has a stable democray ......... even those that have some semblance of a democracy, like turkey and malaysia, are being slowly pulled to the precipice of total anarchy by their resurgent islamists ...........

First rule in the paki army strategy book..grease up

second rule: bend over..

next stop for the sharia express..lahore..or maybe another lal masjid in islamabad...


Pakistan imposes Islamic law in Taliban stronghold

Government brings in sharia courts in Malakand in attempt to placate extremists

Pakistan is to impose Islamic law in a vast region of the north-west called Malakand in an attempt to placate extremists, even as President Asif Zardari warns that they are "trying to take over the state".

Pakistani Taliban militants who are in control of the Swat valley in the region announced a ceasefire tonight, reacting to the government's agreement to bring in sharia courts.

Malakand is part of North West Frontier province, a regular part of Pakistan, not the wild tribal area, which runs along the Afghan border.

Critics warned that the new sharia regulations represented a capitulation to the extremists' demands, and that it would be difficult to stop hardliners elsewhere in the country from demanding that their areas also come under Islamic law.

"This is definitely a surrender," said Khadim Hussain of the Aryana Institute for Regional Research and Advocacy, a thinktank in Islamabad. "If you keep treating a community as something different from the rest of the country, it will isolate them."

Javed Iqbal, a retired judge, speaking on Pakistani television, said: "It means that there is not one law in the country. It will disintegrate this way. If you concede to this, you will go on conceding."

The deal, set to be announcedtomorrow, follows talks between the government and a local Islamic leader, Sufi Muhammad, who once led hundreds of men to fight alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan against the US-led coalition. He was freed by the Pakistani authorities after the restoration of democracy last year, in a move heavily criticised by Washington.

you all need to give prophet tahmed(pbuhbr) a break..

ever since her read that pakiland has a 12% positive rating in the US, he's become even more unhinged...

so..please...go easy on him..we don't want another beheading like we saw in buffalo, do we?

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/BBCEvals_Feb09_rpt. pdf

View of India's influence
US
mainly positive:54
mainly negative:28

View of Pakistan's influence
US
mainly positive:12
mainly negative:69

tahmed,
you are right. Traditional Hindu culture was not that progressive but same is the case with most (may be all) of the traditional cultures.
The point is how can people learn and reform themselves i.e. weed out the bad and accept the good from others, without creating chaos and madness. I think thats the strength of Hindu Culture.
Also, you are giving too much credit to India for its social, political and economic progress. India has a long way to go but we are in the right direction.

#259 tahmed32

[i am not denying that india has done better than pakistan politically and economically. ..... that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture...]

Of course you would say so. But of course you would be wrong. WHY do you think there is democracy in such a far-flung and ethnically diverse country like India? Do you think ANY other country, with the poverty and all the problems that India began with, could have maintained order and democracy? Many western intellectuals have wondered precisely this. And they have conceded that this would not have been possible anywhere else. Look at Russia. Look at China. Nope. This is possible ONLY in India. Precisely BECAUSE of its Hindu ethos.

Bangladesh is a good case in point. Culturally, they are MUCH closer to the Hindu culture than to the barbarian cultures (although they have Islam pulling them in that direction - which is the reason for their political instability)

I'm sorry. But that's the truth. You have been taught wrong all your life. By your parents, your textbooks, your politicians, your mullas. It's hard to accept, but there it is. And your disease of trying to pull Hindu and Islamic culture to the same level, saying that BOTH should learn from western culture, is understandable, but very common.

As time goes by, Hindu philosophy will be more and more widely appreciated and discussed by western intellectuals, Hindu Yoga will become one of the essential components of life all over the globe, Indian food and classical music will reach wider and wider audiences. All of this, without the need to "convert" anyone, demonize someone else's culture, or any beheadings.

It will happen. It's already happening. Because FREE people appreciate good things. People with slavish or "submissive" mindset do not.

[#258 tahmed32
hamidm: dont rant, please. you are not making any sense.

#254 hamidm2
tahmed,.....you are not a moslem! ....... my mother always considered ahemedis to be moslem ...... you are a damn wahabi, or a koranist at best !

#250 tahmed32
hamidm: you could have fooled me. OK, so we keep islam then - the one practiced by your (and mine) sainted mother and father...]


tahmed,

what hamidm means is that he likes the CULTURE that he has grown up in. Although it is a cocktail of arab and various other barbarian non-cultures superimposed on the original desi (read hindu) culture, he has grown up in it, and naturally identifies with it. That IS his identity, and he does not want to lose it. Most of the time, the actual religion lends a backdrop to the myriad customs and traditions which makes up any culture, and most people just live in that culture without bothering about the actual significance of the religious underpinnings. So THAT is what Hamid is referring to. He wants the CULTURE (although his americanized daughters and their children will eventually identify more with the american culture). He does NOT want your unholy textbook.

It is possible, with some serious editing of the textbook, some major fudging of actual history, and introducing a few relatively more benign "prophets", that "Islam" could still be preserved.

But then that would lack the real kick, wouldn't it?

Re: # 259 tahmed32

"i am not denying that india has done better than pakistan politically and economically. that is thanks to india learning from the west - maintaining the parliamentary system left behind by the british, and continuing the western education that too many muslims foolishly and arrogantly rejected. that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture (regardless of how the hindu nationalists seek to portray this and to twist history to fit their emotional needs)."

Many argue that it is because of hindu culture's willingness to accept reform and change is what allows society to progress. Fortunately there is no sharia in hinduism, no penalty for apostasy, etc.. There may negative cultural items (e.g. the caste system) but they can be worked without encountering religious dogma.

i mean 19th century for mahatma phule

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Re: # 261

I dont deny that, but then again these leaders are giving press conferences, interviews, conducting FM Radio stations and yet the relevant authorities (Pakistani and US) cannot find their targets? There is a serious disconnect here between what is known and what we are led to believe, maybe this is just another wild conspiracy theory but please tell me how come Bugti was a sitting duck and these bearded penguins keep slipping the noose.

#260 drones and satellite technology can only do so much. they cant recognize an individual on the ground to be massoud, and not hamidm's kindly uncle e.g.. for that you require "humint" (human intelligence) - and that is very difficult to get for anyone if a fugitive chooses to go underground.

Re: # 257

tahmed32

Like I asked dear hamidm2 brother an honest US tax payer, how is it that American drones are flying all over the tribal areas and now we are told using Pakistani airbases yet they cannot find Fazlulla, Betullah Mehsud etc etc? There can be only two explanations (1) Pure incompetence and technological failure or (2) in cahoots with the handlers. I am betting on the latter.

pew research: i am not denying that india has done better than pakistan politically and economically. that is thanks to india learning from the west - maintaining the parliamentary system left behind by the british, and continuing the western education that too many muslims foolishly and arrogantly rejected. that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture (regardless of how the hindu nationalists seek to portray this and to twist history to fit their emotional needs).