The Nightmare Must End

hamidm2...
if you are now in USA and not in your native place, rearing herd of goats and your daily routine do not include beating your 2nd wife and then having s** with your 3rd wife...much of the credit should go to brits...but little credit you should give to a short,dhoti clad brahmin from Bengal village,Iswar Chandra Bandopadhyay as well. He formed the education policy of Bengal, with help of Brits and then that was replicated accross British India...more and more you rename the institutions established by Sir Ganga Ram etc. to arab and central asian raiders, you will move closer to ideal islamic country...a pure chaos...and Pakis are doing exactly that....if you live another 20/30 years, may be you will see such situation...and that will not be something unexpected...whatever way you want to define "good moslems" like "special" tea, served by roadside stalls of delhi, that may not work....

hamdm2...
you are real punju joker and entertainer...

you want to be a musla without association with 7th century arab raider, his cock and bull story and related 7th century arabic stupidity and barbarism!!!
But then that is foundation of Islam/muslaism...

In Delhi (may be some part of cow belt as well), you can order "special" tea from roadside stalls...whole lot of sugar and milk, but not a single drop of tea liquor...but the stall owners will insist,they are serving you "tea" only...

Re: # 259
tahmed...
"not because of, traditional hindu culture (regardless of how the hindu nationalists seek to portray this and to twist history to fit their emotional needs)...."

Here the beduinoid is back with usual islamic wishdom...

So, the contributions of aryabhattas etc...which even scientists like Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein acknowledged as foundation of mathematics, is something muslas originatining in this part of world like to downplay...and that was british induced education!!!!

Re: # 368 Posted by rf786 on February 17, 2009 8:12:07 am
Re: # 367

bismillah bhai,

It is unfair to place all the blame at the doorstep of the republicans. It is true though that republicans would like more freedom and small government. The housing mess that brought all the current financial mess actually started during the Carter administration.

Obama's administration has this uncanny style of placing the fault line rhetorically on the last 8 years, which actually is totally bogus. And Obama himself admitted that Regan had much better economic performance. Well then, Dems have to place negative rhetoric on either on H.W. Bush and the Clinton administration. Actually, H.W.Bush lost the election precisely because of his "Read my lips, No new taxes" rhetoric, and then to get elected and raise taxes. H.W. Bush lost because of that. And of course, Clinton administration had an "enjoy-now-pay-later" world economy. It just so happened that the world economy was just entering a new phase after the soviet demise.

Of course this economy needs a long-term solution. How can anyone trust the feds to run with a $15T economy efficiently? It is very difficult to suggest that governments can run economies efficiently than the private sector.

I agree that main street should be rewarded, and not the wall street. We should ask the democratic congress this question. Since July of 2008, the democrats in Congress voted for TARP money, and now money for stimulus, and the coming bank bailout. All the bells and whistles required to manage this largess was conveniently ignored by Barney Frank.

I have suggested for a long time that this is a financial war with China. Their USD 2T foreign account will be depleted pretty soon buying all these dollar-bonds and the Euro-bonds which will be floated to get the dollars/euro in their respective economies. Actually, IMO, the Chinese mercantilist economy will lose to the knowledge based anglo-saxon economy. What do you think?

Good night sirji...I am no trader. I like to protect my downside (and also the backside) heheheh

Re: # 380

Spoken like a true trader, I wish you all the best.

Time to pull the shutters, goodnight.

on that I couldn't agree with you more. Sort of the natural tendency for populists and politicians to go over to teh extremes. But I have faith that the innovative spirit of the people in general will keep the gov't from messing around with the market system too much. Derivatives are not bad things you know...;-) I mean, in a few decades when machinese produce everything and human intervention is diminimus, we will all be trading derivatives o fthings made by machines....I like my odds in that casino.

Re: # 378

Createalpha Sahib

I always enjoy our conversations, thanks.

For those such as myself tied to this business have very little choice but to agree, it will be resolved. Having said the necessary disclaimer clause its important to emphasis the importance of healthy financial markets for global growth and prosperity. My biggest fear is the potential political and social backlash. Protectionism is rearing its ugly head, social unrest in eastern Europe and Asia will deteriorate, populist ideas will gain momentum and wall street will be vilified for the next one year at least.

rf sahib, I am not sure if it was a scam. Madoff was a scam, today's Stanford financial news..is a scam. this was a clusterfk....but it will be resolved. and if your beta is checked then alpha is not a bad thing to seek.

Flat "createalpha" Iron

Re: # 376

Investment banks are supposed to have comprehensive compliance policies, huge risk management departments, highly qualified people, best of the brightest yet they share bulk of the responsibility.

Like u rightly said, human behavior was an important factor which drove the need to achieve short term profit targets for that bonus and second vacation home. Improper practices were ignored for the sake of profits, compliance was ignored and risk management made subservient to alpha generators. Only the brave and strong could resist such temptations but the price was high as they were ridiculed and sidelined. Political leadership was also a beneficiary and chose to glorify and perpetuate the biggest financial scam of the century.

and about regulatiory environment and banking. contrary to popular belief, investment banks are some of the most regulated entities in all corporates. Billions are spent on compliance and risk management. risk mgmt in global investment banking is perhaps the largest department in all of operations.

one of the other problems as I see it is also the earnings guidance BS in the global equity markets. balance sheet health, which traditionally had been a key component in stock selections over the course of the last 15 years gave way to EPS. think about how many companies leveraged their cash, set up treasury desks, etc. instead of holding it in reserve or safer instruments.

the last 4 years were the worst. but we will come out it, hamidm will buy that lake front house in Mackinac Island and Tahmed will visit him to discuss the talibanization of karachi over some scotch and pakoRas.

Re: # 373

Very well said.

Leverage, leverage, leverage and more leverage was used to drive profits higher, profits based on assets with unsustainable prices.

rf sahib, take a look at investment bank profits in trading vs. advisory before 1995 and uptill 2008. during this time where both reps and dems were in control....we have structural changes to the market system like decimalization for example, which (as I mentioend below can be rhetorically justified) ate into teh traditional commission structures of the brokers, then came the ECN's which started providing direct market access to every tom dick adn harry that can have an online trading account and a computer with better priccing and info feeds. This also drive down the revenues for stock brokers. the idea was good, lower the cost of trading, enable greater competition etc. But the downside was...the banks, which traditionally had smaller trading and brokerages vis-a-vis advisory businesses like M&A/restructurings etc. looked to create instruments to list and trade. SO whereas before they were just executors of the trades, they now began to be executors, market makers and counterparties with balance sheet assets in all these products that they selves created (a taboo in a traditional investment banking set up)

all because of the road was paved with good intentions.

Re: # 369

True, but one has to judge circumstances on events directly preceding this crises. Bush took over with a budget surplus and converted into a deficit, Republican economic philosophy promoted self-regulation by capital markets and we know its end result, went to war without any tax hikes to fund the war, promoted a culture of cronyism and complete lack of focus on the real issues.

Financial services, Universities with their high flying business programs, greed and poor regulation can be used to explain this crises but have little policy impact.

Re: # 370

Hamidm sahib:

"... bill clinton says (as usual) he didn't do it :..."

The bigger irony is that Bush says he did it, then what. Although Clinton also said "I did not have sex with that woman".

... bill clinton says (as usual) he didn't do it :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090216/us_time/08599187977400

Rf Sahib, it is just not wall street. Financial services firms are not th eonly ones who have to own the blame. regulators and franly basic human behavior should share a big part of the blame as well.

and all those policies made by dems and reps alike...which on a rhetorical level make sense. Like homeownership for everyone, pushing sub-prime loans while relaxing credit guidelines and keeping the cost of capital artificially low.

Re: # 367

Bubba Sahib

Lets not forget that this mess was created by the Republicans rash policies, to judge Obama on such a short time span is unfair.

Financial, economic mess is gargantuan, complicated and needs long term solutions, world will have to reset their expectations and start to adapt to the new conditions or perish.

One more important fact, mess we have was created by Bankers and wall street excesses, how can they be rewarded by stock market relief. Main street needs help, not wall street.

Hamid mian,

These liberals are bent to screw the heartland with their verbosity. Did you not notice that for every question asked (a total of 13, in his 50 minutes press conference) President Obama spent an average of over 3 minutes to explain, one question. And poor helen Thomas could not even get her question answered. He uses his oratory skills and meanders his way on addressing both sides of the question asked. This a typical legislative and managerial style, when they say blah, blah, blah, on one side, and then they put a however in between and start saying just the opposite with another sets blah, blah, blah.

Re: # 360

tahmed32 sahib

(you invest over a 10 year horizon at least in such things, and what goes down must come up. )

NASDAQ peaked in 2000, this is 2009 and we are well below the peak levels seen in the tech bubble.

Mean reversion is another wall street failed theory used to dupe investors and justify their loss positions.

The sun will comeout tomorrow....bet your bottom dollar...there will be sun. ok, maybe not in Swat

Re: # 362

tezaab mian,

...... don't forget that tim is the guy who is incharge of the irs but 'forgot' to pay his payroll taxes for a couple of years .......... verily, we are fckued

tahmed,

.... ok i looked at the 10 year horizon and now i am really worried! ..... in feb 1998 the dow was at 9800, ten years later it is hovering around 7600 ....... so ten years from now it is going to be 5600? ..... i am a dead man! or, verily we are fckued !

hamidm,

I expected some thing new and different from Obama Presidency. Tim's plan doesn't look that different than Paulsons. In fact it has too little detail so far.

#359 i never understood the sense behind day trading and people going mad looking at stock prices every day. you invest over a 10 year horizon at least in such things, and what goes down must come up.

Goldfinger: of course pigs are birds - arjun can cut and paste an article on apples and oranges from Dawn online to prove that.

Re: # 357

tahmed mian,

.... have you seen how the market has reacted to his bank rescue plan and stimulus plan? ..... and let's not talk about his lack of judgement in picking his cabinet - you can excuse one bad pick, but when he repeats the mistake four times you have to wonder about the man's 'brain' .......

furthermore to #357: and if property can be bought at 30% the original price, then seems to me it is a good time to buy.

#354 hamidm: Obama is certainly no match for George Bush - Obama actually uses his brain, when everyone knows that Bush's faux Texan cowboy talk is what a presidency really needs.

Agree on Swat though. Like I said, put the "sharia" or "islam" label on a donkey and Pakistanis will respectfully start referring to it as "maulana".

bubba mian,

..... i have already pleaded temporary insanity for voting for obama .... i voted for mccain in 2000 and for bush twice and like everyone else i got suckered by obama's slick rhetoric - you have to admit, the man is charming! ......... i was a fool! ..... meray baap ki kasam i will remain true to the republican party from here on out ...... even the best of us make mistakes

..... as for the rest of it, i have been saying that we are fckued (verily) but being an optimist i also try to look at the bright side ....... to be honest, things look really bad in pakistan when you are sitting thousands of miles away, but everything seems to be fine in islamabad or lahore once you have been there for a couple of days ...... where else in the world can you play golf and the 'ball boy' makes sure you have a perfect lie in the rough .........don't be a party pooper and have fun while it lasts ...... when the taliban take over i will be the first one to grow a beard and squat like a woman to pee ..........

Re: # 354 Posted by hamidm2 on February 17, 2009 4:50:43 am

Hamid mian,

As you know, I always enjoy reading your posts. IMO you should be designated chowk's waffler-in-chief.

After you voted for the guy, you have the audacity to claim [.. i don't know if obama has what it takes to stand tough - the guy has already done three somersaults in the three weeks he has been in office ...... he was a great campaigner but i don't know if he is presidential material ..]

Didn't you know then what you know now? All these years you misled the "somewhat washed masses" on this site that you are a full blooded American red-neck, and yet, you did not vote for the older more experienced McCain. Your understanding of american political structure is very limited. And it appears that your understanding of pakis and their political dynamic comes from the GHQ garrison of the ruling elite of that wretched country.

Pakis in the settled areas are truly screwed because their ruling elite have been triangulated by the nexis of fanaticism emanating from the KSA culture, the al-masri muslim brotherhood of Egypt and the unwashed cave dwelling opium-gangsters residing in Afpak mountainous areas. In so far the regions of Afpak is concerned, US has contracted out its foreign policy decision making to the ruling elite of KSA.

And whenever the alt-F mafiasos are brought in with complete understanding and confidence, into this yet to be realized new foreign policy initiative, we would see a complete and effective control of the settled lands, between the ports of Karachi to the US designated free-trading outposts of mazaar-e-shariff inside Afghanistan.

And then, we all live happily ever after. And so it is written, and so it shall be done.

Re: # 353

tahmed mian,

no i don't, but you can buy premium waterfront property 'up north' for 30 cents on the dollar ..... the way things are going, i will have to turn off the lights in michigan before i leave.....

.... going back to the swat thing, i think it was a mistake to let this jinn out of the bottle (again) ....... they seem to have bought off the father-in-law, but the son-in-law is still out there and if the government doesn't exterminate him he will continue to grow in strength and spread his mayhem ..... if the americans leave afghanistan - which they just might - then we will be truly fckued as i have been predicting ........ i don't know if obama has what it takes to stand tough - the guy has already done three somersaults in the three weeks he has been in office ...... he was a great campaigner but i don't know if he is presidential material ......

....... the swat deal would be fine if they can produce fazlullah's dead body and hang it in the main market of mingora for a couple of days .....

hamidm #344 I shall do that. you wouldnt have a nice cottage available in Mackinac island for the summer?

Hamid miyan,

Can u please tell me how you don't get worked up in the face of biting criticism sometimes bordering on abuses? I wish to develop this quality but seldom succeed.

Re: # 349 nemescis

"Also neither this nor that?"

Well definitely not that!

Re: # 348 nemescis: "Arjun, in my opinion is a straight forward chap trying to call spade a spade."

If arjun in your opinion is a straight forward guy, then pigs must be birds, cows must be gods, and you must be a one eyed jack!

#306 Posted by Goldfinger
"I'm neither here nor there...what to do? "

Also neither this nor that?

#300 Posted by tahir

I think you had you better stop exploring people's previous births. Chowk is for exchanging views and not an arena for kickboxing. Also, it is not an in thing for your learnings. You remember recently there was a manifestation of rebirth in the Kashmir valley? Your mullahs said it was not true since quran did not profess it, evidences notwithstanding.

#299 Posted by ajeya

"angry indians (arjun), India will never be overtaken by fundamentalism, because it is alien to Indic thought and philosophy."

Well said except that it is wrong to put arjun in the same group mentioned there. Arjun, in my opinion is a straight forward chap trying to call spade a spade.

ha ha ha ha ha ha hahahahaha.....

I just came across this story on CNN (might be old news to many here). This guy, like Tahmed, has been fighting the "negative portrayals of Muslims in America"...hahahahahahahaha....

From CNN:

Founder of Islamic TV station accused of beheading wife

NEW YORK (CNN) -- The founder of an Islamic television station in upstate New York aimed at countering Muslim stereotypes has confessed to beheading his wife, authorities said.


Muzzammil Hassan has been charged with murder in the death of his wife, Aasiya Hassan.

Muzzammil Hassan was charged with second-degree murder after police found the decapitated body of his wife, Aasiya Hassan, at the Bridges TV station in the Buffalo suburb of Orchard Park, said Andrew Benz, Orchard Park's police chief.

Hassan was arrested Thursday.

His wife filed for divorce January 6, and police had responded to several domestic violence calls at the couple's home, Benz said.

Hassan went directly to the police station after his wife's death and confessed to killing her, Benz told CNN. Benz declined to give further details.

Attempts to reach an attorney for Hassan were unsuccessful, and his family didn't return calls from CNN.

He had two children, 4 and 6, with his wife. He had two other children, 17 and 18, from his previous marriage.

"we may very well see the mullah hang himself (by showing the hollowness of "sharia law" in addressing real issues). and the nwfp gov is no fool either."

For many people, sharia *is* the real issue, not a means to some other end. These people wield a stick big enough the Pakistani army is unwilling to antagonise them. So all this may be wishful thinking.

Re: # 343

tahmed mian,

..... :) ..... next time you are in michigan please let me know ........ regards, hamid

#342 hamidm: i saw a Wanted poster for Kansi at a post office when he was on the run from the law. The poster had him classified as Race: White as well. I bet he didnt stick that poster to his fridge in Quetta!!

tahmed,

.... no, because i don't want to push my luck .... what if they ask for a dna test and find out i am descended from gopinath?

hamidm: please dont speak out of turn. Tezaab was seeking my learned opinion, not yours.

#323
yeah right, Qibla.
Dream on!
-E

Re: # 336

tezaab mian,

.... people just want to get dizzy and have a happy time ..... that's all

#336 tezaab: same reason some people avoid avoid black cats and lock themselves up in room on friday the 13th.

#335 hamidm: Have you submitted that traffic ticket..I mean Gora Certificate..to the Aryan Brotherhood yet as proof of racial purity?

tahmed32

so whats the purpose of circling the meteorite block?

Re: # 333

tahmed,

... uh? .... what does that have to do with you calling for the genocide of ahmedis? ......however, i am proud to say that no one in my family has had a ticket since that day - we don't want some ignorant hick putting us down as 'asian' or, god forbid, 'indian' ...... i'd rather be moslem than indian ....

tezaab: and guess what? the meteorite is in the shape of hamidm's head (block)!!

hamidm: writes "you still are a ahmedi baiter and hater".

who are you trying to impress with your namecalling and lies?? the traffic cop who gave your daughter the "gora certificate" that was proudly pasted on the family fridge??

hamidm

So moslems are praying to the meteorite or acknowledging the place where it landed on earth? but wouldn't that be a sacrilege because instead of worshipping allah they will be fixated to the meteorite?

Re: # 329

tezaab mian,

..... in islam it is okay to worship stones before they have been carved into satatues or lingams .... the shias worship little slabs of earth five times a day and the pathans use holy stones to wipe themselves after urinating ....... go figure!

......... ooops!

TEMAR GARAH: The Tehrik-e-Nifaz Shariat Muhammadi (TNSM) has endorsed the truce signed with the NWFP government about enforcement of Nizam-e-Adl Regulation in Malakand Division.

TNSM chief Maulana Sufi Muhammad will head to scenic Swat valley today in the form of caravan at 11am.

.............. why don't we do bomb the kalima out of this caravan and then go oooooooooooops ! ......... remember the caravan of death on the road from kuwait to basra? ........ i am sure the americans would be willing to loan us a few million tons of bombs .......... what an opportunity!

hamidm,

Is it true that moslems circle around the meteorite in Kaaba? Why they do that? Isn't it adolatory?

If sharia in Swat leads to a peaceful and prosperous place in a few years, hindoos should release kashmir valley to sharia. if it goes south they should build a big wall.

Re: # 321

tahmed,

... sorry, i just wanted to float a trial baloon to see how you would react .... you are right, you don't support the objectives resolution ......... but you still are a ahmedi baiter and hater and therfore not a moslem in my book .......

Re: # 322

falsafee mian,

... to you answer your question: because i like to stir up the toilet bowl .... it is important becuse the sooner we moslems realize that we are swimming in a toilet bowl that needs to be cleaned up the better .......

...... it is important to beat up on a sacred cow even if it happens to be camel (pbuh) ..... our prophet's clay feet have to be broken so that his crazed followers will cease and desist from blowing up bamiyan buddhas and breaking idols in the kaaba and arjun's temple ...... once we realize that regardless of what it says in tahmed's book islam is far from being perfect, we will become a 'normal' religion and stop being a threat to civilization .........

i hope that helps .........

hamidm,

"reminds me of another father-in-law son-in-law team that started this nonsense many years ago in medina ........ "

I feel grateful to grandpa Bholanath, who paid the jizziya tax, bore the discrimination and yet refused to accept the Medina highway robber as the prophet. Thanks to his wisdom!

hamidm,

a talibani pakistan government is good for India.

Then the Pakistani "bum" will be entire worlds headache including Iranians. Even if for any reason someone smokes out Talibani Pakistan, I doubt any one will shed a drop of tear.

rf786 #384: if you put the label "islam" on even a donkey in Pakistan, the fools will start worshipping it. and dictators and ambitious politicians (bearded or beardless like zardari or NS in his previous incarnation as PM) have made full use of this problem in pakistan.

i wont predict how swat will play out though - except to say that time is not on the side of the troglodytes who live in the 7th century. the only question is when, not if, there will be enough of a middle class to put an end to this abuse of the "islam" and "sharia" label. Thus, even in the US in the 19th century, the biggest slander you could put against a presidential candidate was that he was roman catholic. even kennedy had this held against him. today even a guy with the middle name "hussein" gets to be president. So - as a i said, the question is not if, but when, swat catches up with the rest of pakistan. and pakistan catches up with the more progressive nations of the world.

Ham-dam muwaish2

you are stuck in a rut. You are an as*whole on peril. Don`t you have any thing better to do in life? Why do you swim in the toilet bowl with such delight?

hamidm the liar: just to keep the record straight, i dont support the "objectives resolution" rubbish about "islamic state", and never have. but dont let little facts come in the way of your misrepresentations - after all, even an empty lota like you needs some bs to rattle out...

Re: # 318

tahir mian,

.... sorry, i didn't mean to leave out the wife who financed the whole thing, the nephew and the other father-in-law ........ in islam state building is a family enterprise ....

Re: # 317

giani mian,

.... the first nail was put in when the Objectives Resolution was passed to please the tahmed ......... this particular nail was first hammered in by mrs zardari when she was elected by the unwashed masses - it had come loose and was hammered back in by mr zardari .......

...... if i was a horrible hindoo i would be really worried because it is only a matter of time before the hordes of allah march on to delhi ......... circumcision can be very painful .....

Re: # 316
" reminds me of another father-in-law son-in-law team that started this nonsense many years ago in medina ........"

Ham-dam-thank-you-ma'am,

You are one sick (I can't seem to decide what animal must I compare you with)...

You'll surely give up your ghost to Kali one night. How amazingly disrespectful!

Poor upbringing is to be blamed.

Guess the first nail in the coffin of the pure state was hammered in today. Jinnah must be squirming wherever he is.

Hamidm2, you poor sod, feel sorry for you man

Re: # 313

tahmed,

.... you really are a simpleton! .... do you really think the taliban in swat are gong to disarm and take up golf? .... for all practical purposes the government of pakistan has ceded control to hazrat sufi mohammad (ra) who is now the defacto khalifa of swat with his son-in-law as the commander of chief of his army .......... reminds me of another father-in-law son-in-law team that started this nonsense many years ago in medina ........

brother bismillah,

....... subhanallah!........ praise be to allah and his holy prophet (pbuhahc) ..... today we have laid the foundation of the islamic emirates of pakistan in swat ... under the leadership of hazrat sufi mohammad the true believers will now organize themselves and in a few years, inshallah, we will march into islamabad, lahore and karachi ..... once the islamic state has been expanded to include all of pakistan and the minafiqoon and the kanjaroon have been dispatched to hell, we will march on to delhi ....... soon the glory of the muslim empire will be restored and the green and white banner will fly from the red fort ...... we warn the hindoos to either convert, pay jizziya or face the wrath of allah ...........


p.s. the horrible hindoos on this forum can start making down payments on their jizziya by sending fifty dollars a month to me .......

Re: # 312

tahmed32

Understand one thing, ideologies outlive all foxes and thees maar khan's. Objective resolution was supposed to alleviate religious sentiment by including Islamic in the constitution and that was supposed to be the end of it, but history tells us a very different story.

Religious parties have been the most consistent political activists, and they have been rewarded with a totalitarian state which suites their vision. Zardari may out fox Bholla NS but is no match to the religious activists.

another bird zardari may be killing with this stone (which of course will be very bad for pakistan) is the lawyers movement. i.e., with sharia courts replacing regular courts in malakand, he would have removed his arch-enemy (namely the lawyers) from the political scene.

zardari may seem crazy in agreeing to sharia law in malakand, but he is crazy like a fox - by giving the mullah a long enough rope (i.e. institute sharia law in swat), we may very well see the mullah hang himself (by showing the hollowness of "sharia law" in addressing real issues). and the nwfp gov is no fool either.

Re: # 310

Pew Research

We all know that Bush & Co right after 9/11 were planning to attack iraq, ease of victory in Afghanistan probably accelerated that process. In their haste to close the deal they made many exceptions and compromises as you rightly referred, but that was then, what is happening today and the last two years is well known and hard to explain.

Lets explore some facts:

- Pakistan army allows the Taliban to take control of the western regions
- Swat is surrendered to the extremists
- Extremists are allowed to exterminate all local opposition, effectively removing any chance of finding domestic opposition to their agenda
- Control and Command structure of the pro-Taliban religious seminaries across Pakistan till date remains unscathed. On the contrary, they are fully operational and patronized by state and popular media.
- American drones increase their attacks into Pakistan territory
- Popular press ratchets up their outrage against the American aggression but ignore atrocities committed by the local taliban
- pro-Taliban Jihadis try to expand the theatre of violence by attacking Mumbai
- Pakistan army raises their concerns regarding drone attacks and threaten retaliation
- American/NATO supply lines are attacked across Pakistan and NATO depots are destroyed by Talbans

In summary, State of Pakistan is convinced that the main target is Pakistan and its nuclear arsenal, thus the need to counter all possible threats and reinforce their traditional alliances. Liberals such PPP are trying their best to salvage a political deal and Pak army is playing along but keeping their options open all the time.

Re: # 301 rf786

"...SO I ask the same question, how is it that the Americans can allow the Pakistani Army to airlift enemy combatants and then give sanctuary to people like Mulla Omer?..."

Short-sightedness of the Bush White House, who viewed the Al Qaeda as the main threat (parasite) that had found a willing host (Taliban). I know that this may be hard to swallow, but the answers lie again in Rashid's book. Basically, when Musharraf did his famous U-Turn on the Taliban in 2001, he became a Bush Whitehouse favorite. Musharraf wanted to preserve the Taliban and convinced the Bush Whitehouse that there was a distinction between Al Qaeda and the Taliban and that the former were the ones worth pursuing. The Bushies went along with this because they wanted to retain the loyalty of Musharraf. I don't think that the Bushies realized that many Al Qaeda also escaped in the Konduz airlift.

Add to this the zeal with which the Neocons wanted to pursue Saddam immediately after 9/11 that they began to lose interest even in Osama Bin Laden when the battle of Tora Bora was raging. The Bush Whitehouse sent hardly any soldiers for the coup de grace, leaving Osama to escape by bribing the local Afghan forces.

Later when the Iraq war drew American resources and Afghanistan was neglected, the Taliban came back with a vengeance with ISI backing. With a new Obama Administration, and Afghanistan in a precarious state today, the focus will shift to the Taliban.

#308 Posted by Goldfinger on February 16, 2009 4:26:26 am

what happened in the past was that your hindu great great grandmother got the mukhtaran mai canadian visa interview...and then "converted" to islam...

Re: # 304 arjun says: "if you inbred retards were really that capable, indian kashmir would have banega'ed pakiland a long time ago...wouldn't it..."

Thats whats happened the past 1000 years and more, except for brief interegnums evey now and then...so some will die to meet their 72 houris, some like yourself will die, in the service of your kali maa and raw, and be reborn as one of those white little fluffy poodles to be looked after by some white pet-loving girl in a white land...and you shall run yelp yelp yelp...all over the place...but I for myself still do not know where I will go...?

Re: # 282 Tahmed

I am not smart enough to figure out what the differences are between orthodox Islam, Meiji Japan, Ming China, modern India and Western Renaissance as to why different civilizations decay and rise. The only thing that can be said with certainty is that Muslim countries are in decay today and they all claim to be deeply religious/orthodox. They (without exception) give a special legal status to Islam. It doesn't take someone with high IQ to put two and two together.

Bernard Lewis explains this as a result of there being no secular tradition in Islam due in large part to Muhammad being a religious and political leader simultaneously in his lifetime, in contrast to the hostility between the Church and Rome for 300 years. If he is right, then the outlook for Islamic societies to break out of this spiral is gloomy.

A different way of looking at the same issue is that about 400 years after the introduction of Islam in North India, the Mughal Akbar realized that the vastness of India posed an entirely different challenge for governance by an Islamic elite compared to what the past Islamic conquerors of North Africa and the Middle East had faced. He realized that the consolidation of the empire could not happen without abandoning some of the rigid Koranic doctrines. Hence his search for 'Din-e-Ilahi' and alliances with Hindu kingdoms. It is no surprise that he succeeded to a large extent in bringing stability to the largest Indian empire since Ashok and has gone down in history as Akbar 'The Great'.

The Subcontinent changed Islamic 'culture' as well in unique ways. It may not be widely publicized in Pakistan, but the great Muslim Hindustani classical musicians are inspired often by Hindu hymns. Many of the greatest 'ragas' in the Muslims courts all over India were sung in devotion of Hindu gods! This change never happened outside India and mainstream revisionists in Pakistan are in denial about it. Today, singing (let alone to Hindu gods), is heresy in many Islamic societies. Kabir, Nizamuddin Auliya, Ahmedis have to viewed in a similar light. So, the point of this is that attempts to 'modernize' Islam have faced conflict and the orthodoxy is 'winning'. (By 'modernize' I mean being comfortable and at ease with conflicting viewpoints, not adopting the symbols of modernity).

rf786 is right when he says that the 'Muslims of India can be an ally in this struggle', since they are the largest, freest Muslim society in the world.

Unless, this issue is sorted, I am afraid that we will get more of the same.

Re: # 303 majumdar says: "In that case, shudn't u support the cause of the Talibs, they will wipe the smile off your tormentors' (the bania's) faces."

How can I majumdar...I neither bang my head on the floor 5 times everyday, nor do I drink pale bodily excretions daily to cleanse my soul...I'm neither here nor there...what to do?

#294 Posted by hamidm2 on February 15, 2009 6:58:59 pm


if you just say that ahedis are moslems just like sunnis, shias, deobandis and barelvies, i will let you off the hook


yeah prophetboy....that seems reasonable..

go ahead...say it...ahmedis are muslims..they're as muslim as any other of allah's chosen muslims(i.e. pakis)..

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Gf,

eventually remove the smug smirks from the faces of johnies who call themselves arjuns, jaypees, ajeyas, nkgs and stuff...and all their baniya's hard painstaking work that they have done for themselves in business finagling would eventually come down to aught!

In that case, shudn't u support the cause of the Talibs, they will wipe the smile off your tormentors' (the bania's) faces.

Regards

Coming back to the topic at hand....how about the bad news that the government has given in to demands of the scoundrels in Swat...they say that Nizam i adl is to be imposed in Malakand/Swat now...thus giving in to the mullahs by the authorities...a black day, sad and shameful...how could you let murderors and criminals to have their way like this...instead of crushing them like pests and vermin that they are, they're being rewarded by giving in to their medieval, absurd, and contorted demands. Way to go! Be that as it may, looks like this cancer will spread and spread until it will eventually remove the smug smirks from the faces of johnies who call themselves arjuns, jaypees, ajeyas, nkgs and stuff...and all their baniya's hard painstaking work that they have done for themselves in business finagling would eventually come down to aught!

Re: # 273

Pew Research

Yes, I have read Descent into Chaos and other books by Ahmed Rashid. Post American/NATO invasion of Afghanistan, Pakistan airlifted their troops from Afghanistan fighting side by side with the Taliban, and all this happened with American blessing. Then, Mullah Omer has been given sanctuary in Quetta. SO I ask the same question, how is it that the Americans can allow the Pakistani Army to airlift enemy combatants and then give sanctuary to people like Mulla Omer? We are also aware of the Indian buildup in Afghanistan, then its safe to assume they too would be privy or in agreement to this official implicit policy of differentiation.

Arjun_42,

By Allah (Ram, in your case), how many lives do you have? The reason you keep having newer nicknames is that you wish to hide something (not the family jewels!).

Here you are as Arjun_m:

arjun_m
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Posted by arjun_m Apr 11, 2003 11:07 am
pop a term into a search engine and it pops up all the bile and hatred I need instantly

Search engine? Try chowk.com. One one thread a paki tells us how jews are like foxes, hindus like hyenas and muslims lions.

Last visitor: guest
Member since: Apr 2 2001
Last signin: Sep 17 2006

#289 hamidm2

[ajeya mian,

....... that was a very moving post and it almost brought a tear to my eye ..... i love this sanatana manatana stuff, whatever it is, but can you explain vhp, rss, bjp, advani, thackery, gujarat, kashmir and arjun ......... ]

Well, Indians are no different than human beings anywhere else. And most of them are just as clueless about this "sanatana manatana" stuff. Which is how it should be - philosophy is only for the curious-minded, life is actually happier for the people who are simpler. Vhp, rss, bjp, advani, thackeray, gujarat, kashmir and arjun have nothing to do with Indic philosophy. Having said that, I will also say that Indic thought provides a backdrop for the prevailing culture of the country, so although there might be reactionary forces(vhp, rss, bjp) as well as violent criminals (gujrat), political opportunists(advani, thackeray), expression of national pride(kashmir), and angry indians (arjun), India will never be overtaken by fundamentalism, because it is alien to Indic thought and philosophy.

hamidm: you are too damn slow in getting back. good night. (i'll be back later to see if you figured out an overclever and ultrastupid response).

hamidm: what childhood problems cause you to misrepresent other people's views? (I am trying to help you).

#294 and you dont need programming skills to back lies.

#294 hamidm: when you can cut and paste to back you lies then i will let you off the hook.

Re: # 290

tahmed,

... i don't have arjun's skills to go and sort through all your nonsense ........... just tell me, do you deny that you have serious heartburn with ahmedis calling themselves moslems, muslims, mohammedans or musallmans ? ........... i will make it easier for you, if you just say that ahedis are moslems just like sunnis, shias, deobandis and barelvies, i will let you off the hook

hamidm: and i see you conveniently ignored that other lie about my views that i had to waste time correcting (i.e. on separation of religion and state).

arjun #285 i agree with you for once. (i dont know who is the idiot who red-flagged your post).

ajeya #287 yes, my abrahamic optimism is paling in contrasting to your gibberising.

hamidm mian the liar: cut and paste what i wrote to back what you said.

Re: # 287

ajeya mian,

....... that was a very moving post and it almost brought a tear to my eye ..... i love this sanatana manatana stuff, whatever it is, but can you explain vhp, rss, bjp, advani, thackery, gujarat, kashmir and arjun .........

tahmed mian,

...... you are on record as someone who does not recognize ahmedis as moslems and has advocated their persecution ..... you are a moslem nazi!

#284 tahmed32

[....but pride can too easily go over the line and become hubris which then sets the seed for a downfall.]

That's optimistic thinking on your part that will never come to pass. This is because the Indic ethos is not straitjacketed by any one straitlaced view of the world. It tolerates, indeed encourages and thrives on different points of view that are involved in a serious discourse. Thus we get Shankaracharya, AND Buddha, AND Mahavir Jaina AND many others. Philosophers and saints assert their viewpoints and different individuals in the society adopt these viewpoints on their merits, or reject them. Nothing is set in stone. There is no "final" prophet with the "final" message from ghostly apparitions. It is a discussion between intelligent and tolerant people. That's the Indic way. No mass beheadings, rape, loot and carnage to get more and more people to join any cult.

This is the basis for Indic tolerance, and the genius of Sanatana Dharma. This is the philosophy due to which the philosophy of Sanatana Dharma remained a philosophy rather than a "religion", and never even gave itself a name, let alone trying to "convert" people (which is a stupid endeavor in itself). In the years to come, as more and more people become more enlightened, they'll realize that religion is a cult, and nothing more - you cannot "convert" people with a few magic words. All people are exactly the same, and remain the same regardless of baptisms, holy baths in this or that sacred river, sacred incantations and religious rituals. What's important, and important only if that individual deems it to be important to himself, is his curiosity about the world around him. This is the Indic philosophy, and it does not have anything to prove or defend.

It is because of THIS mindset that your optimistic thinking - which comes from your perspective as an Abrahamic cult member, will never come true.

Re: # 276 Arjun

One doesn't have to read Sanger's book. Ahmed Rashid's is enough. It lays out chapter and verse how the ISI has been supporting the Taliban. In fact, Musharraf himself summoned Rashid to his office demanding that Rashid quit reporting on the dalliance between the two. Rashid refused and considers himself lucky to not be arrested. He did give credit to Musharraf (but not much more) for not having him arrested.

After the fall of Konduz in 2001, the ISI asked the US to provide an air corridor for the evacuation of thousands of Pak military and Taliban. Countless Al Qaeda also escaped (read Rashid). These facts are well known. I don't think that Biden/Obama will fall for the Pakistani double game anymore.

BTW, Rashid also thinks that India's aid program in Afghanistan is one of the best run amongst all donor states.

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ajeya #267 no doubt india deserves credit for maintaining (and indeed steadily strengthening, as in case of the CEC Seshan's improvement of the election process) parliamentary democracy despite its massive and diverse population. and you are right in taking pride in it. but pride can too easily go over the line and become hubris which then sets the seed for a downfall.

tezaab #268 you make good points and i agree with them. the only caveat i have is as noted below in #282 on the dynamic nature of social attitudes wrt to other cultures.

Pew Research #272 So we are basically in agreement I think. i would only emphasize that social attitudes are not static but dynamic - i.e. that they change over time. Thus, while the taliban reject foreign influences, as i have noted before on chowk, during their most progressive periods muslims were eager to learn from other civilizations. same for india, china, europe or any other part of the world if you look at their history. Thus, it is not one single factor (i.e. religion), but a complex interaction of circumstances that cause communities to become open-minded or remain close-minded. japan (meiji vs pre-meiji) is another example.

I don't give a shit one way or the other, because napak fouj is tukhm-e-khinzeer either way, but probably the most ridiculous thing is to accuse them of being cohorts with Talibans.

In a way it is good, because those looseres who are supporting americans and napak fouj in the massacre of Pakistani citizens are siding with those whom they themselve consider losers, cheats and thugs. Attaboy.

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Re: # 262

Bugti wasn't a sitting duck. It was Muttaraf who sacrificed almost a platoon, including a Colonol and some other sinior officers by ordering a missile strike while they were negotiating with Bugti in his cave. The army did not take Muttaraf's ruthlessness kindly, but then there were plots in Islamabd and agricultural land in Oakara, and they were living, while someone else was dead. so mitti pao.

arjun: good boy!! go fetch more pointless articles from the internet for my reading pleasure...

hamidm: you are now reduced to lying about my views. that is neither funny, nor clever. merely stupid.

to keep the record straight: contrary to your lies, i have always called for separation of religion from the constitution - and the "civil society" that lotas like you hate but which has , calls for the rule of law. as for your labelling me as a "wahabi" earlier - that merely puts you in the same jahil category as urstruly labelling me a "mirzai".

paging prophet tahmed(pbuhsrr)

Why the US bugged Pakistan Army generals

Monday, February 16, 2009
Book claims drone attacks began after ISI-Taliban coordination confirmed

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: A new book by a New York Times journalist has levelled serious allegations against Pakistan and its Army claiming the telephones of all senior officers, including the COAS General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani were bugged by Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and National Security Agency (NSA), the main eavesdropping US agencies around the world.

The book written by David E Sanger, which has hit the stands a few days back, claims that the American intelligence agencies were intercepting telephonic conversations of Army officers and the decision to attack Pakistan through drones was taken after one such high level conversation was intercepted claiming the Taliban as a “strategic asset� for Pakistan.

The book, titled “The Inheritance: The World Obama Confronts and the challenges to American power� claims the decision to invade Pakistani territories was taken after the CIA reached a conclusion that the ISI was absolutely in complete coordination with the Taliban.

The NSA intercepted messages indicating that ISI officers were helping the Taliban in planning a big bombing attack in Afghanistan although the target was unclear. After some days, the Kandahar Jail was attacked by the Taliban and hundreds of Taliban were freed, it says.

General Kayani would be the second army chief of Pakistan whose conversations have been bugged by the Americans, if the allegations in the book are true. Earlier the FBI had intercepted the telephone conversation between President Musharraf and Benazir Bhutto when Musharraf had threatened her that her safety within Pakistan depended upon her nature of relationship with him (Musharraf). The Indians had also recorded a telephone conversation between General Musharraf and General Aziz when Musharraf was in Beijing during the Kargil war days.

The author who seemed to have been given direct access to the secret record of several meetings held at the White House before George Bush left the presidency on January 20, has made several revelations in his book.

The book has also disclosed that NSA was already picking up interceptions, as the units of Pakistan army were getting ready to hit a school in the tribal areas. Someone was giving advance warning of what was coming. The book said they must have dialed 1-800-HAQQANI, said one person who was familiar with the intercepted conversation.

According to another para, the account of the warning sent to the school was almost comical. “It was something like that “Hey, we are going to hit your place in a few days, so if anyone important is there, you might want to tell them to scream�.

The book also establishes that the Americans were in full knowledge of the facts on the ground and they started attacking territories inside Pakistan as they thought the Pakistan army and intelligence agencies were no more interested in fighting the Taliban.

In chapter 8 of the book on Pakistan “Crossing the Line�, the author has also revealed that how an angry two star army officer of Pakistan army had actually unfolded the whole secret plan of Pakistan army deliberately before a US spy master McConell.

The book said, the US intelligence agencies knew very well that Musharraf was playing a double game with them as on the one hand he was assuring the Americans that only he could fight against the Taliban and on the other, he was backing the militancy and the militants. “Musharraf’s record of duplicity was well known.

The author has written this chapter on Pakistan on basis of some secret trips of America’s twwo top spy chiefs-McConnel an Haden-nicknamed as “two Mikes� who had held several meetings with the top military army officers including General Pervez Musharraf.

The author records that in late May 2008, McConnel made a secret trip to Pakistan, his fourth or fifth since becoming the director of national intelligence, trips that seemed to blur together in his head.

But this one was dramatically different from the rest- and ended up driving the push in the last days of the Bush administration to greatly step up covert action across the border into Pakistan.

The book says, packing quickly through his usual rounds of meetings with Musharraf and a raft of intelligence officials in Islamabad, McConnel and his small entourage found themselves in a conference room with several military officers, including a two star Pakistan general.

No officer was talking to other participants in the meeting as if the American intelligence chief, the visiting dignitary for the day, wasn’t in the room. Not surprisingly, he was being pressed about Pakistan strategy in the tribal areas, and he was “reluctant to start� one of the participants in the conversation recalled.

“But once he got into it, he could not contain himself�. The two-star general began making the case that the real problem was the tribal areas and in Afghanistan was not al-Qaeda or the Taliban, or even the militants who were trying to topple the Pakistani government. The real problem was Pakistan’s rival of more than sixty years which he said was secretly manipulating events in an effort to crush Pakistan and undo the 1947 partition that sought to separate the Islamic and Hindu states.

“The overwhelming enemy is India�, the Pakistani officer told the General. “We have to watch them at every moment. We have had wars with India, he said as everyone in the room needed reminding.�

The Pakistani two-star general described President Karzai’s cozy relationship with India, seeking investment and aid. With alarm, he talked about how the Indians were opening consulates around the country and building roads. What the rest of the world saw as a desperately needed nation-building programme, Pakistan saw as a threat. He was not alone in that view, conspiracy theories about Indian activities in Afghanistan are a daily staple in the Pakistani media.

As the officer talked, he became more and more animated. The Indians will surround us and annihilate us, he said, knowing McConnel was hearing every word. “And the Indians in their surrounding strategy, have gone to Afghanistan.� Those newly built roads were future invasion routes, he seemed to suggest, without quite saying so.

The consulates were dens of Indian spies. The real purpose of the humanitarian aid to Afghanistan was to run “operations out of Afghanistan to target Pakistan�.

The conspiracy theory deepened. “In the long run, America will not have the stomach to bear the burden of staying in Afghanistan,� the officer continued, still seeming to ignore the presence of the American intelligence chief. “And when the Americans pull out, India will reign. Therefore, the Pakistanis will have to sustain the contacts with the opposition to the Afghanistan government meaning the Taliban so when the Americans pull out, it’s a friendly government to Pakistan. “Therefore,� the officer concluded with a flourish, “we must support the Taliban�, two-star general announced in the meeting in the presence of US spymaster.

The last statement of the two star general stunned McConnel. For six years, the Americans had paid upward $10 billion to the Pakistan army to support its operations against al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Bush and his aides knew — though they never admitted that much of the money had been diverted to buying equipment for the Pakistan military to bulk up against the Indian. Now a Pakistani officer in his fury and frustration, was openly admitting that the Pakistani government had officially denied that it was playing both sides of the war—-the Americans side and Taliban side.

In return for the Americans billions, Pakistani forces or intelligence agencies operatives occasionally picked off a few al-Qaeda leaders (though even that had slowed to a trickle). But they were actively supporting the Taliban and even some militants in the tribal region. It was almost as if the American taxpayers were making monthly deposits in the Taliban bank accounts. Some in the Pentagon objected but were overruled.

None of this was really a surprise-except to the American people who were regularly told by President Bush that Pakistan and its leadership were a strong ally against terror. Even some of the Bush aides cringed when he uttered those words “it was like hearing him say, victory in Iraq�, one told me after leaving the muddled complexity of it all was some kind of admission of defeat.

Even some inside the While House, admitted to me (author) that “reimbursements� to the Pakistani military were just this side of fraud. They had been paid out when Musharraf had announced he was pulling back from tribal areas because of a “truce� with the tribal leaders. When Congress threatened to link the reimbursement to the Pakistan military performance, one American general summarized this reaction this way: “It’s about goddamn time�.

Bush knew the truth. Intelligence reports written over the past five years have all documented the ISI support for Taliban-something Bush had admitted to me (author) and other reporters. He knew of course that even Musharraf had little interest in sending his army into tribal areas. Every military professional who returned from Islamabad came back with the same report. Seven years after 9/11, 80 per cent of Pakistan military was arrayed against India.

McConnel himself returning from one of his trips noted that there is only one army that has more artillery tubes per unit, everything from old cannons to rocket launchers and mortars. It’s North Koreas’, he said. It was a telling statistic. Artillery tubes weigh tonnes and are useful only in holding back Indian hordes as they come across the plains. They are useless against terrorists enclaves.

Overhearing the two-star’s rant about India was not the only rude surprise McConnel experienced on this trip. He had brought with him the chart he used in the White House situation room tracking the number of attacks inside Pakistan over the past two and a half years.

One of the charts showed that about 13,000 Pakistanis had been killed in 2007 chiefly by suicide bombers, about double the numbers in 2006.

He told Musharraf and General Kayani, the former DG ISI, that the casualty numbers on the track to double again in 2008. Then he described the interviews that Osama Bin laden and his deputies had given, declaring their intention to topple the Pakistan government.

“You are aware of these casualty numbers and what Osama said of course�, McConnel asked. He got blank stares. They told him they had heard about Bin Laden statements.

“It was news�, McConnel reported to his colleagues later. “I talked to the highest level of the Pakistani government and it was news. They just were not tracking it�. It astounded him that the officials in Washington and at the American embassy in Islamabad might be keeping more careful tabs on the rising number of attacks than were Musahrraf or Pakistani crop of democratically elected leaders. Were they ignoring the obvious or were they just denying they knew about it, part of the deception within the deceptions as they supported both sides in the terror fight.

When McConnel returned to Washington in late 2008, he ordered up a full assessment so that he could match what he had heard from the single angry officer with the intelligence that had poured in over the years. His question was a basic one. Is there what McConnel called an officially sanctioned “dual policy� in Pakistan?� That was a polite way of asking whether the leadership of the country including Musahrraf had been playing both sides of the war all along.

It did not take long for McConnel’s staff to produce the answer. McConnel took the formal assessment to the White House, concluding that the Pakistani government regularly gave the Taliban and some of the militant groups “weapons and supporters to go into Afghanistan to attack Afghan and coalition forces�.

This was not news to many in the administration but McConnel wanted to have it down on paper. The assessment was circulated to the entire national security leadership and to Bush who was still giving public speeches praising Musharraf as a great ally.

“It was news to him,� said one of the officials who briefed Bush and watched his reaction to McConnel’s assessment. “And he always says the same thing, so what do you do about it?

By the summer, Bush answered his own question. For the first time in a presidency filled with secret unilateral actions, he authorized the American military to invade an ally-Pakistan.

Editor’s Note: The ISPR has been requested for a detailed response and whenever available it would be given equal and similar space.

#274 Posted by hamidm2 on February 15, 2009 1:44:11 pm


between liberal and conservative scholars


conservative paki: suicide bomber
moderate paki: remote controlled car bomber..thinks suicide is too extreme.
liberal paki: would be a moderate if he could remember where he left the remote detonator...

Re: # 272

pepe,

.... you are right in pointing out that there is not a whole lot of room in islam for the 'jostling' of contrary viewpoints ...... the boundaries are narrowly defined and those who challenge them are quickly declared murtids, heretics or ahmedis and beheaded .......

........ even the most highbrow paki tv talk shows that purport to encourage debate between liberal and conservative scholars end up discussing inanities like the role of jinns (including masadi) in higher education ....... nobody, not a single soul, in an islamic country has the gonads to even mention the possibility of separation of mosque and state and everyone, including tahmed's civil society agrees that the koran must be the basis of the constitution ....... they are too scared to suggest anything else ...........

as i said ... verily, we are fckued

Re: # 262 rf786

"...but then again these leaders are giving press conferences, interviews, conducting FM Radio stations and yet the relevant authorities (Pakistani and US) cannot find their targets?..."

rf786 check out Ahmed Rashid's book, 'Descent into Chaos: The United States and the Failure of Nation-Building in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Central Asia'. Click on:

http://www.amazon.com/Descent-into-Chaos-Disaster-Afghanistan/dp/01431155 7X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234738832&sr=8-1#reader

and then click on the 'Excerpts' on the left. You will find out how the ISI collaborated with the Taliban to kick Hamid Karzai out of Pakistan because his popularity with the Popalzai tribe in Kandahar was proving too much for Mullah Omar to bear.

Re: # 259 Tahmed

Agree with most of your post.

"...that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture..."

That is a debatable point. Many can rightly say that it is precisely because Hinduism is not rigidly doctrinaire (and the chauvinists are but one stream in a larger river jostling for space with other contrary viewpoints) that acceptance of Western ideas has been easier than in the case of Islamic societies where the debate on doctrine is settled. This is not to say that there are no chauvinists - there are. But, they have to compete for mindshare with others.

Re: # 266

ajeya mian,

.... thank you for correctly interpreting what i am trying to tell the blockhead tahmed ..... sometimes it is hard to get through to this ahmedi hating wahabi ...........

......... and thank you for pointing out that none of the islamic countries from morocco to indonesia has a stable democray ......... even those that have some semblance of a democracy, like turkey and malaysia, are being slowly pulled to the precipice of total anarchy by their resurgent islamists ...........

First rule in the paki army strategy book..grease up

second rule: bend over..

next stop for the sharia express..lahore..or maybe another lal masjid in islamabad...


Pakistan imposes Islamic law in Taliban stronghold

Government brings in sharia courts in Malakand in attempt to placate extremists

Pakistan is to impose Islamic law in a vast region of the north-west called Malakand in an attempt to placate extremists, even as President Asif Zardari warns that they are "trying to take over the state".

Pakistani Taliban militants who are in control of the Swat valley in the region announced a ceasefire tonight, reacting to the government's agreement to bring in sharia courts.

Malakand is part of North West Frontier province, a regular part of Pakistan, not the wild tribal area, which runs along the Afghan border.

Critics warned that the new sharia regulations represented a capitulation to the extremists' demands, and that it would be difficult to stop hardliners elsewhere in the country from demanding that their areas also come under Islamic law.

"This is definitely a surrender," said Khadim Hussain of the Aryana Institute for Regional Research and Advocacy, a thinktank in Islamabad. "If you keep treating a community as something different from the rest of the country, it will isolate them."

Javed Iqbal, a retired judge, speaking on Pakistani television, said: "It means that there is not one law in the country. It will disintegrate this way. If you concede to this, you will go on conceding."

The deal, set to be announcedtomorrow, follows talks between the government and a local Islamic leader, Sufi Muhammad, who once led hundreds of men to fight alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan against the US-led coalition. He was freed by the Pakistani authorities after the restoration of democracy last year, in a move heavily criticised by Washington.

you all need to give prophet tahmed(pbuhbr) a break..

ever since her read that pakiland has a 12% positive rating in the US, he's become even more unhinged...

so..please...go easy on him..we don't want another beheading like we saw in buffalo, do we?

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/BBCEvals_Feb09_rpt. pdf

View of India's influence
US
mainly positive:54
mainly negative:28

View of Pakistan's influence
US
mainly positive:12
mainly negative:69

tahmed,
you are right. Traditional Hindu culture was not that progressive but same is the case with most (may be all) of the traditional cultures.
The point is how can people learn and reform themselves i.e. weed out the bad and accept the good from others, without creating chaos and madness. I think thats the strength of Hindu Culture.
Also, you are giving too much credit to India for its social, political and economic progress. India has a long way to go but we are in the right direction.

#259 tahmed32

[i am not denying that india has done better than pakistan politically and economically. ..... that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture...]

Of course you would say so. But of course you would be wrong. WHY do you think there is democracy in such a far-flung and ethnically diverse country like India? Do you think ANY other country, with the poverty and all the problems that India began with, could have maintained order and democracy? Many western intellectuals have wondered precisely this. And they have conceded that this would not have been possible anywhere else. Look at Russia. Look at China. Nope. This is possible ONLY in India. Precisely BECAUSE of its Hindu ethos.

Bangladesh is a good case in point. Culturally, they are MUCH closer to the Hindu culture than to the barbarian cultures (although they have Islam pulling them in that direction - which is the reason for their political instability)

I'm sorry. But that's the truth. You have been taught wrong all your life. By your parents, your textbooks, your politicians, your mullas. It's hard to accept, but there it is. And your disease of trying to pull Hindu and Islamic culture to the same level, saying that BOTH should learn from western culture, is understandable, but very common.

As time goes by, Hindu philosophy will be more and more widely appreciated and discussed by western intellectuals, Hindu Yoga will become one of the essential components of life all over the globe, Indian food and classical music will reach wider and wider audiences. All of this, without the need to "convert" anyone, demonize someone else's culture, or any beheadings.

It will happen. It's already happening. Because FREE people appreciate good things. People with slavish or "submissive" mindset do not.

[#258 tahmed32
hamidm: dont rant, please. you are not making any sense.

#254 hamidm2
tahmed,.....you are not a moslem! ....... my mother always considered ahemedis to be moslem ...... you are a damn wahabi, or a koranist at best !

#250 tahmed32
hamidm: you could have fooled me. OK, so we keep islam then - the one practiced by your (and mine) sainted mother and father...]


tahmed,

what hamidm means is that he likes the CULTURE that he has grown up in. Although it is a cocktail of arab and various other barbarian non-cultures superimposed on the original desi (read hindu) culture, he has grown up in it, and naturally identifies with it. That IS his identity, and he does not want to lose it. Most of the time, the actual religion lends a backdrop to the myriad customs and traditions which makes up any culture, and most people just live in that culture without bothering about the actual significance of the religious underpinnings. So THAT is what Hamid is referring to. He wants the CULTURE (although his americanized daughters and their children will eventually identify more with the american culture). He does NOT want your unholy textbook.

It is possible, with some serious editing of the textbook, some major fudging of actual history, and introducing a few relatively more benign "prophets", that "Islam" could still be preserved.

But then that would lack the real kick, wouldn't it?

Re: # 259 tahmed32

"i am not denying that india has done better than pakistan politically and economically. that is thanks to india learning from the west - maintaining the parliamentary system left behind by the british, and continuing the western education that too many muslims foolishly and arrogantly rejected. that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture (regardless of how the hindu nationalists seek to portray this and to twist history to fit their emotional needs)."

Many argue that it is because of hindu culture's willingness to accept reform and change is what allows society to progress. Fortunately there is no sharia in hinduism, no penalty for apostasy, etc.. There may negative cultural items (e.g. the caste system) but they can be worked without encountering religious dogma.

i mean 19th century for mahatma phule

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Re: # 261

I dont deny that, but then again these leaders are giving press conferences, interviews, conducting FM Radio stations and yet the relevant authorities (Pakistani and US) cannot find their targets? There is a serious disconnect here between what is known and what we are led to believe, maybe this is just another wild conspiracy theory but please tell me how come Bugti was a sitting duck and these bearded penguins keep slipping the noose.

#260 drones and satellite technology can only do so much. they cant recognize an individual on the ground to be massoud, and not hamidm's kindly uncle e.g.. for that you require "humint" (human intelligence) - and that is very difficult to get for anyone if a fugitive chooses to go underground.

Re: # 257

tahmed32

Like I asked dear hamidm2 brother an honest US tax payer, how is it that American drones are flying all over the tribal areas and now we are told using Pakistani airbases yet they cannot find Fazlulla, Betullah Mehsud etc etc? There can be only two explanations (1) Pure incompetence and technological failure or (2) in cahoots with the handlers. I am betting on the latter.

pew research: i am not denying that india has done better than pakistan politically and economically. that is thanks to india learning from the west - maintaining the parliamentary system left behind by the british, and continuing the western education that too many muslims foolishly and arrogantly rejected. that does not change the fact that this political, economic and social progress is DESPITE, not because of, traditional hindu culture (regardless of how the hindu nationalists seek to portray this and to twist history to fit their emotional needs).

hamidm #250: dont rant, please. you are not making any sense.

rf786: how is the US providing cover to the militants?

Re: # 245 Posted by hamidm2 on February 15, 2009 6:24:58 am

Hamid mian,

[.. do you know of a good publisher other than lulu.com?] Are you nuts? Do you think any good publisher would have the guts to publish what you want to publish? Can you not find any publishing company in those cave? After all they have mastered the internet with their fear mongering videos, could you not entice them to create a new interpretation of your work?

Re: # 253

Dear Pakistani Diaspora Brother

Either the Americans are incompetent and technologically third world status they cannot trace and remove these turbanators or they are in cahoots with Pakistani generals. As an American tax payer, it is your right to demand an explanation.

Re: # 250

tahmed,

.....you are not a moslem! ....... my mother always considered ahemedis to be moslem ...... you are a damn wahabi, or a koranist at best !

Re: # 251

bismillah mian,

........ this is the first time i have heard of us "providing military cover to the militants" ......... please explain and i will take it up with my senator ..... with the slimy democrats in charge of the house anything is possible!! ..... oh, how i wish i had not voted for hussein! ......... i plead temporary insanity

Re: # 250

Hey guys! Tahmed32, Hamidm2

You guys are still screwed. Is there a book somewhere that documents the differences between 'Ramadhan-Islam' and 'Ramzam-Islam'? If there is one, is there a consensus in Pakistan on which one to follow? What about the other miserable folk who are not Muslims anyway? Unless you sort this out, you guys are still verily f....!


(Tahmed) "once we get rid of islam in pakistan, will Pakistan become the Land of Dancing Nymphs and Flute Playing Adonis's like neighboring India?"

Hey Tahmed, if the past 60 years is any guide, India has done quite well indeed! Get a clue.

Re: # 248

hamidm2 brother


I understand the heavy burden US taxpayers carry especially after this financial bailout, but this makes it ever more so important for the US citizens to demand transparency and concrete results.

When the Americans were sending PL 480 they were at the same time supporting JI by paying for their books, now they are sending drones and at the same time providing military cover to the militants, what gives?

#249 hamidm: you could have fooled me. OK, so we keep islam then - the one practiced by your (and mine) sainted mother and father, not to mention our neighbor - who grumbled to my father during ramzan that "khuda kay fazal say ghar maiN fridge bhara paraa hai, or biwi bachay phir bhi bhookay phir rahay haiN".

note use of the word "ramzan" - that is the islam i am talking about. not the "ramadhan" version which is nothing more than arab-worshipping paindoos in pakistan apeing arab illiterates down to their speech impediments. So i hope you will stop acting as of this "ramadan islam" (aka maudoodism, mullahism, arab-bootlickingism, talibanism, ghoondaism, whatever) is the real islam and guys like me (who prefer to follow our pakistan traditions) dont matter.

Re: # 247

tahmed mian,

......... we don't have to 'get rid of islam', we have to get rid of the prophet's (pbuhahc) bedouin islam and return to the benign and fun loving desi islam that was practiced by my mother (god bless her soul) ........ we have to get rid of wahabis like you and embrace more progressive sects like the beralvis, ismailis and ahmedis .......

........ being a moslem i would neve want to get rid of islam ......... astagfirullah!

bismillah mian,

....... for the last two decades, every april 15th, i have been paying the us government to finance drones, daisy cutters and other pesticides to get rid of this vermin ....... unlike some of obama's nominees i have payed my full dues, but it seems most of the money has been going to provide cheese to welfare mamas and folks like masadi and urstruly .....

....... i would be more than happy to support the militia being set up by altaph bhai to fight the taleban in karachi if they can get a tax number in the us ...... these people must be hunted down and exterminated with extreme prejudice ...... i still don't understand why the drones haven't hit muridke, mansoora, akora khattak, and faisal masjid ?

hamidm: Based on your recommendations, once we get rid of islam in pakistan, will Pakistan become the Land of Dancing Nymphs and Flute Playing Adonis's like neighboring India? Given your insightful in-debt..I mean in-depth...analysis of the current situation, I look forward to your bullshit...i mean bulls eye...prognostication of the situation resulting from implementation of your recommendation.

Re: # 245

Hamidm2 Brother

Instead of financing just another interpretation why not finance something which will make a difference such as lethal drones or helicopter gunships.....this way we will eradicate this growing virus and send their followers to their destination of choice.. we must avoid using the same language, let them taste their own medicine.

philospher mian,

..... i started writing my interpretation of the koran some time back on chowk, but after getting past the nonsense of alif laam meem i quickly discovered that it was simply incoherent babble ...... for fourteen hundred years rascals masquerading as religious 'scholars' have preyed on the fears and superstitions of unwashed bedouins and other cave dwellers to gain political power by ascribing all sorts of magical powers this book which was 'written' by a cave dweller with the help of a winged creature and edited by a goat ........

...... the unwashed and ignorant taleban in swat and fata are mere foot soldiers in this war against civilzation being waged by the denizens of mansoora, akora khattak, lal masjid, faisal mosque, deoband and riyadh ...... since these people are using their self-serving interpretation of god's masterpiece to commit mayhem and murder they must be stopped ....... i must continue with my interpretation of the koran to reveal the absurdity of the enterprise financed by khadija .... do you know of a good publisher other than lulu.com?

Re: # 243

in addition to that...what methodology do u ya see fit to interpret islam.You have to prove its philosophical grounds and its absolute validity to deconstruct any text?

what is apologetic approach that you claim "mederate"(apologists) to have? How would you that that certain conclusion are apologetic and are based on technically irrelevent and invalid methodology?

What is the most reliable "unapologetic" methodology and what grounds will it be based on?


what is your definition of validity?or what it is it that makes a certain assertion valid?

2)what do you want religion to be?i.e. what is it that religion MUST do?

3)is there any condition that religion MUST fulfill?if yas,what and why?

4)Is there any methodology that you think to be absolutly valid and can and MUST be a criterion to judge and analyze other doctrines?

5)if there is one..what is the criterion to judge its own validity?


6)what is rationalism?or what do u think rationalism is?



Now sit on your bum and fart over it untill you figure it out.

Re: # 242

(((It is not uncommon to see such efforts which appear like an effort to brush everything under carpet)))

can't you dumb bum see that i was talking abt methodology of interpretation not the content.When we talk abt methodology it can reach to any implication and conclusions.The important thing is the technical grounds of a certain methodology.are you aware of the technicalities of these issues?I didn't even positively assert the validity of the subject deconstruted by that methodology.

(((What, in your opinion, should be the correct translation of the verses quoted in #123 Posted by ajeya?))))


No i am not gonna explain it for a simple reason because when we talk abt the coherence in the structure of the Quran, we have to distinguish b/w relation and organic unity. A relation, howsoever strange and over stretch, can be established between any two objects of the scheme. But organic unity implies the harmonious interrelationship between the elements of a body or entity which produces a unified whole, a whole which is above the sum total or the components of and has worth and latent meaning in itself. The verses and surahs of the Qurann are not simply linked with one another, they have their place in the total scheme of the Qurann and are connected not only to one another but also to that entire framework. The Quran is an organism, of which its verses and surahs are organically coherent parts.so it would be an excercise in futility to take one sura or the verse of the Quran out and debate over it.


Are u aware of even the various forms of logic and their place in the realm of Epistemology and formalization?

do u know anything abt the contemporary hermenutics and liguistic and structral studies to interpret the text?


(((( would eagerly await your clarification)))

why would i bother to clarify to you. After all Brian lara has yet to clarify to my abt his high back lift technique.









s

#240 Posted by philosopher

"Their version of islam is the inevitable result of the derivative thinking based on the formal logic.the propositional logic and the laws of thought borrowed by the greek logician converted the whole structure of Quranic existential and phenomenological language into propositional statments which led the prevailing version of political islam which are resposible for many problems in the muslim world."

It is not uncommon to see such efforts which appear like an effort to brush everything under carpet. What, in your opinion, should be the correct translation of the verses quoted in #123 Posted by ajeya?

We, in India, hear such efforts by eminent moderate muslims who try to interprete the word Kafir as an atheist, non-believer whereas the term should actually mean the non-believer of Allah and his prophet.

I would eagerly await your clarification.

Regards.

#237 _ar_jun42

[Sunday, February 15, 2009
NEW YORK: Stating that Pakistan had been in denial about the Taliban in the past, President Asif Ali Zardari has said his government was determined to put an end to the growing threat of the militants.]

Yup. It's harvest time! Mushu-baba and his cronies in the ISI have decided over a glass of Jack Daniels that it's time to harvest some $$. Obama is holding up 2 billion dollars in loan (when did they start calling begging as recieving a loan?) unless CNN can broadcast some "results" and "progress" for the intelligent American viewing public.

: )

The Menace of Turbanization(aka talibanization)


Talibanization is a real threat to the socail fabric of pakistan.people who deny this threat are living in fool's paradise.

Taliban's political struggle against the American led-coalition is definitely justified but it by no means validate thier ridiculously superficial and distorted interpretation of Islam. Such movements derive their justification from real or percieved decadence and/or failure of the existing social order.Taliban movement is no exception to this rule.

indeed its phenomenal rise to power can be understood only in the backdrop of Afghan soviet war of the 80s and subsequent internecine fight between various mujahideen factions.

Their version of islam is the inevitable result of the derivative thinking based on the formal logic.the propositional logic and the laws of thought borrowed by the greek logician converted the whole structure of Quranic existential and phenomenological language into propositional statments which led the prevailing version of political islam which are resposible for many problems in the muslim world.

Talibans betrays even the islamic jurisprudence that they claim to follow.They pick and choose their brand of Islam from the same juriprudence suited to their tribal values which have nothing to do with EVEN THE MOST literal interpretation of Islam.


I don't find their outlook of history totaly meaningless though.For the criticism that can be applied to their Revivalist view of history is equally relevent to other prevailing views of history(Marxian and libertarian view)even if it judged with help of same methodolgy(i will explain this point sometimes latter in detail,i will show that the so called progressivist views of history are not so progressive after all,when judged from a serious and sophisticated philosophical standpoint)

But the problem with Taliban's view is that they fail to realize that while certain fundamnentals of human nature and society may remain constant, at least the surface of the society changes.in particular a change or progres occurs in technology as well as structure and complexity of social institution and methods for running them.Therefore, taliban often defeats their own purpose by failing to properly accomodate social institution that have evolved over a long stretch of time.

more latter

#236 "Who started this ridiculous story? "

right!! if only every religion as sane as monkey-god worship, to pick a more printable example from hindu "culture"!!

#237 Posted by _ar_jun42 on
arjun,
well Zardari, thook lagaane ki kosis kar raha hai, jarda lagane ke bajaye... those guys are in the habit of deceiving people, they can say anything and they pray 5 times that people will be fooled by whatever they say...never understanding and nor remembering that they are doing it much more often than they are praying....

Taliban control huge areas, says Zardari

Sunday, February 15, 2009
NEW YORK: Stating that Pakistan had been in denial about the Taliban in the past, President Asif Ali Zardari has said his government was determined to put an end to the growing threat of the militants.

“(The Taliban) do have a presence in huge amounts of land in our side. Yes, that is the fact,� Zardari told CBS in an interview to be broadcast on Sunday, excerpts of which were released on Friday.

“It’s been happening over time and it’s happened out of denial. Everybody was in denial,� he said on the networks’ programme “60 Minutes�.

The president said many thought that “they’re weak and they won’t be able to take over ... they won’t be able to give us a challenge�.

Re: # 225 Posted by hamidm2 on February 14, 2009 2:04:44 pm

Hamid mian,

Where did you get this truth from?

[.. yes, it is true that the stone in the kaaba is a meteroite which fell on abraham's head while he was getting ready to slaughter his concubine's son, ishamel ..]

Who was the scribe of this event? Who started this ridiculous story? I thought that abraham was alone when he was getting ready to slaughter his son. Or did he have some spectator event?

[.. and yes all human beings are descended from adam and eve, ] And you are saying this on Darwin's 200 year birthday!!

..[except arjun mian who is descended from a lunatic monkey (tahmed made this discovery) ] Actually, Darwin made this discovery.

Re: # 204 pew: "BTW, did you know that the Afghan government has been protesting to Pakistan to not use the names of Afghan generals for their No Dong (N. Korean) missiles?"

You nugget don't you know that there are more Afghans (Pakhtuns) in Pakistan than in Afghanistan...moreover Karzai is more like the mayor of Kabul rather than the govt of Afghanistan, and girls like him used to roam the streets of Peshawar copiously (I don't know if they still do), called "Gillumjam" by the locals...selling their bodies for about 500 rupees or so...

Amritsar is answer to your prayers :).

Pardesi something to think about if u can get your heads out of ganga

hamidm,
"it is better to be the product of incest than be descended from monkeys ....... "
Does that mean incest is legal in Islam?

hamidm,
" it is better to be the product of incest than be descended from monkeys ...."

thats true... Nevetheless the monkeys must also have descended from Monkey Adam and his mate Monkey Eve, hence making them also a product of incest.


".... of course abraham survived! ... he was a prophet .... "

Kash mein prophet hota!

Only if someone was willing to listen to me, I also could have become one.

Re: # 228

tezaab mian,

.... of course abraham survived! ... he was a prophet ....next you will be questioning the virgin birth, walking on water, flying to the seventh heaven on a winged horse and executive compensation on wall street .......

#223 Posted by hamidm2 on February 14, 2009 1:24:35 pm

"i am caught between the ganga, a polluted open sewer, and the kaaba, the house of the devil ......verily i am fckued!"

Amritsar is answer to your prayers :).

However, if you are not open minded to Sikhism, it's understandable. Like they say - Ghar ki murgi dal barabar.

Re: # 227

tezaab mian,

..... it is better to be the product of incest than be descended from monkeys ....... just look at arjun mian

hamidm,

Abraham survived that hit on his head? The meteorite must not be that big then.

hamidm2,

"and yes all human beings are descended from adam and eve"

does that make all of us a product of incest? The only way I see humans multiplying is when Adam and Eves children do it among themselves.

Re: # 222


Hamidm sahib:

That Jeweller counting beads with beard, said it the best. You should following his advise too you will attain your nirvana in your very home. There is a saying in hindi "Man changa tou kathoti mein ganga". No one put a stop on you whether you put water from aab-e-jum jum, from ganga or from Chicago river. That bead counter may still be selling fake jewellery.

Re: # 224

tezaab,

.... yes, it is true that the stone in the kaaba is a meteroite which fell on abraham's head while he was getting ready to slaughter his concubine's son, ishamel ...... and yes all human beings are descended from adam and eve, except arjun mian who is descended from a lunatic monkey (tahmed made this discovery)

hamidm2,

Is it true that the stone in Kaaba is a meteorite?

Also, is it true that according to Islam all the human beings descended from Adam and Eve?

Re: # 222

anil mian,

..... i am caught between the ganga, a polluted open sewer, and the kaaba, the house of the devil ........

.... verily i am fckued !

Re: # 202

Hamidm sahib:

"....... with missiles named ghazni and ghauri and tanks named khalid coming your way you vegetarians should be shaking in your dhotis .......why arn't you? ..."

Like that bead counting jeweller I too am a realist, "mere baap ka kya jata hai, mein tou dhoti hi nahin pahan ta, Hamidm sahib. You really wasted veggie juice in you. Paviter ho jaane ke liye, gagna mein snan karein.

ALLAH HU AKBAR! RUSHDIE FATWA CELEBRATES 20 YEARS!

TWO decades ago, on 14th February 1989, Salman Rushdie received one of history’s most notorious Valentine greetings. Ayatollah Khomeini, then Iran’s Supreme Leader, issued a fatwa calling for the death of the Indian-born British author in response to his novel, “The Satanic Verses�. Khomeini called on all “intrepid� and “zealous� Muslims to execute the author and publishers, reassuring them that if they were killed in the process, they would be regarded as martyrs.

Rarely had a book stirred up such intense feelings. Hitoshi Igarashi, its Japanese translator, was stabbed to death. Ettore Capriolo, the Italian translator and William Nygaard, the book’s Norwegian publisher, were stabbed and shot respectively, although both survived. Bookshops were bombed and the tome was burned in public across the world. Mr Rushdie, fearing for his life, was forced into hiding.

philosopher,

.... actually this masterpiece from homi hindoo won second prize at the annual bad writing contest sponsored by the journal philosophy and literature in 1998 ...........

...... i think i will be fine if the taliban take over - i can speak pushto and i can also squat and pee like a woman as per mo's instructions ...... can you?

Re: # 216 hamid muskharay

((((having said that, i do think that if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to 'normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse )))))



LOL....you always bother me to write the link for readers.

here we go.....taken from;Race Critical Theories By Philomena Essed, David Theo Goldberg.


Anyway....there is another bad breaking news for you.while Talibans are ready to march in islamabad I,once again, am gonna take over chowk.

verily all the Kanjroons are fucked.

Re: # 214

urstruly mian,

.... musharraf's worst sin was leaving those jihadi-breeders alive ..... i think zardari has learned the lesson and he will make sure that the vermin are exterminated ...... even nawaz sharif seems to be on board with the plan after meeting with holbrooke ..........

....... urstruly mian - it is a them or us situation for all of mankind ...... we are faced with the greatest threat to civilization since noah's flood ....... but just in case they do win, i want to go on record and say 'la ilha mohammad ur rasool ullah' ....... you can't kill a man after that, can you?

Re: # 215

"there will be plenty of Lal Masjids an Jamia Hafsa's b4 this is all over"

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind. This inevitability is written on the wall.

Re: # 210

philosopher mian,

.... there are two people no one can plagiarize - homi bhaba and mo of mecca (and his assistant gabby)........ these two (or three if you count the winged accomplce) have perfected the art of nonsense ......... i think masadi mian, with help from a dead white man named mills, is trying to break this stranglehold on the world of nonsense but i don't think he comes close ........

..... having said that, i do think that if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to 'normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse ...........

Re: # 214

urstruly

Mushy did not deliver thus his departure, his exit had nothing to do with the victory over the lal masjid brigade. not to worry, there will be plenty of Lal Masjids an Jamia Hafsa's b4 this is all over, so dont get your panties all twisted, be patient. By the way, if u feel uncomfortable, apply for immigration to wahabistaan, I hear they will need all the support (human shields) they can get.

Re: # 207

This was an open secret already since your muttaraf sold aibases to americans 7 years ago. What else would they need them for? to do their laundry?


Next 3 months are going to be very interesting. Do you think these assholes like zardari stand a chance?? You r Musharaf was separated from his skin in a matter of 4 months after he declared war on people of Pakistan through Islamabad school girl massacre.

It is a no brainer. The flights to canada and Dubai are going to be very busy in the next few months.

Philo bhai, hamidm ji is a brilliant man. We Hindoos just love him despite whatever he says about us. But if as a Muslim he goes against Islam he has no hope, never had any.

This is one aspect so many people here simply don't get, or find very hard to accept because they can't imagine a world opposite to their's.

As they say, "Time shall reveal the truth." :)

Hamidm,

Stop your whining! As a Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Sharia should have been installed in 1947 itself. I DEMAND riba-free economy. This how Allah wanted it!

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Re: # 208 Eklavya

(((hamimd2, good to see you finally putting matters exactly as they are, even though Hindus still will not accep them (they can't believe what you write can be true or serious business).))))

Kaal ji...hamid Muwaish is a plagiariser.He is not capable of producing even a single scholarly post on serious intellectual discourse.

I guess u remember how i disrobed this buffoon and his plagiarism? And the guy he plagiarised from is cultural theorist Homi Bhabha.It might be because of the veggie blood of his granpa Gobhi'naath.

Verily meeda Mussali is fucked.

Re: # 206 Hamidm

If you convert me to your brand of Islam, then we can go to your favorite bar and toast to a drink together right thereafter. The drinks will be on me. And you will go to jannat for scalping one kafir. Howz that?

hamimd2, good to see you finally putting matters exactly as they are, even though Hindus still will not accep them (they can't believe what you write can be true or serious business).

Echodada wins not because I want him to win but within Islam there is simply no provision for hamdim to win. :)

So echodada and hamidm team zindabad!

urstruly,

what do you think about the disclosure that drones are flying out of kamra and mianwali? .......... tomorrow on sixty minutes zardari is going to declare open war on you and other cave dwellers .... are you worried? ...... i am also beginning to see a little bit of a backlash against the 'mullah' among the common folks (including the unwashed masses who don't want to give up bollywood) because of what is happening in swat ..........


.... i would still like to hedge my bets so please don't report me to your shura .....


urstruly zindabad!
president obama zindabad!
maulana fazlullah zindabad!
president zardari zindabad!

p.s. striding the fence can be a painful experience

pepe,

.... remember nadir shah and ahmed shah abdali ? .... their blood still runs through my veins even though it has been corrupted by grandpa gopinath's veggie juice ......

.... repent! .... islam is on the rise in pakistan and verily you are fckued !

Re: # 203

urstruly,

... since i am the proverbial lota and believe in hedging my bets, i would like to cross over to your side even though it is the dark side ..... like my friend, the jeweller on murree road who used to be the epitome of decadence a decade ago and now sports a tableegi beard and is constantly fiddling with his worry bead said, "meray baap ka kiya jaata hai - being a religious person helps with the jewellery business in pakistan" ....... if i am not mistaken, that is what abu bakr and khalid bin walid also said when they signed up ........

..... i am ready to take bait on your hand ......... jazakallah!

Re: # 202 Hamidm Mian
"...with missiles named ghazni and ghauri and tanks named khalid..."

An extreme case of the Stockholm Syndrome. BTW, did you know that the Afghan government has been protesting to Pakistan to not use the names of Afghan generals for their No Dong (N. Korean) missiles?

and heck if corrupt ruling elite is thinking that they can run to dubai and canada and live there happily ever after with the looted wealth that belongs to Pakistan and no one will be coming after them - then it is time that they wake up. This time the sedition is global.

Re: # 201

anil mian,

.... i don't mean to scare you, but khalid was given the title "saifullah" or sword of allah by the holy prophet (pbuhahc) ....... pakistan's first indigeonous tank is also named khalid ....... with missiles named ghazni and ghauri and tanks named khalid coming your way you vegetarians should be shaking in your dhotis .......why arn't you?

Re: # 200

anil mian,

.... this was the message delivered by khalid bin walid, the greatest of all islamic generals, to the king of persia and this is the messsage i would like to deliver to all you horrible hindoos who have been getting a little uppity lately .......... it is only a matter of time before we march on delhi again !

..... repent! verily, you are fckued !

Re: # 191

Hamidm sahib:

"Submit to Islam and be safe. Or agree to the payment of the Jizya, and you and your people will be under our protection, else you will have only yourself to blame for the consequences, for I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life. "

Where have you brought this quote from? Is it really spelled out so clearly?

........... i rest my case :

PESHAWAR: Information Minister NWFP, Mian Iftikhar Hussain has said that headway has been made towards implementation of Shariah regulation in Swat valley.

He said the government is in contact with Maulana Sufi in this regard.

Mian Iftikhar Hussain said the NWFP Chief Minister Amir Haider Hoti has convened an important meeting for February 16 in which, he said, key decision are expected to be made.


............ verily we are fckued!

bubba mian,

.... as the saying goes, ahmedis are even worse than hindoos and there is a special place reserved in hell for them ..... they cannot even buy protection by paying jiziya or handing over their first born untill they stop taking the name of allah mian and his prophet in vain (peace be upn him and his camel) ......

..... what was the next question? .... oh, how can these cave dwellers offer protection ?? ...... look bubba mian, don't forget that this whole movement started in a cave (ghar-i-hira) so don't underestimate these smelly barbarians ........... like i pointed out to tahmed below, they have infiltrated the entire fabric of paki society and it is only a matter of time before they come out in the open .... remember ali and khadija and abu bakr?

tahmed mian,

.... you might think all this is a big joke, but the last time they had a suicide bombing in pindi my sister's window panes were shattered ....... and the poor woman was still recovering from being robbed at gunpoint in front of her own hose a couple of weeks earlier .....

..... arjun mian might be a depicable man-monkey, but he is right when he points out that the paki establishment has been infiltrated by folks who have been infected by the islamic virus ....... the establishment includes the army, civil society, the ploitical parties (imran khan and qazi hussein being the top offenders), the media (including the leading talk show hosts), the academia (a'la masadi) and the laywer's 'movement' ...... and let's not even talk about the unwashed masses - allah mian owns their cursed souls .......... most disturbing is the army where it is now common to see middle rank officers sporting tableegi style beards and wearing skull caps .......

.... inspite of being an optimist i am beginning to agree with the likes of zeemax and urstruly and buying stock in companies that make specialty swords for public beheadings ........

.......... verily we are fcuked!

Re: # 191 Posted by hamidm2 on February 14, 2009 5:31:38 am

Hamid mian,

What is the status of Ahmedis? Do they not,"Submit to Islam"? Why are they not "safe?". Now, if they "agree to the payment of the Jizya," who are the "pious ones" who could collect them? Are opium-dealers considered "pious enough" to collect jizya? When they say "you and your people will be under our protection," what do they actually mean considering their own plight? Those who claim that they can provide "protection" are themselves hiding behind women and children and in caves. How can they extend "protection" to the miserable and wretched people who just would not accept being called a muslim?

"Let the show begin" is what humanity is saying in no uncertain terms to those who claim "for I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life." We want to expedite the process to your cherished desires.

#192 HA! HA! Paki! Paki! Paki!! Putting lipstick on pigs that fly!!! Aoooooooooo!!!!

PS to hamidm and any lurkers: this is a special US slang that i and arjun the 42nd use to communicate.

now that prophetboy(peace be unto his burnt rear) has been shows an example of the paki army's co-operation and how much the US trusts it, he'll slither away...

hamidm #192 "i think we are in for another wave of suicide bombings by those who love death more than we love life .."

is mullah limbaugh using suicide bombers now? this man has no limits!! as for urstruly, he loves to rant more than he loves to get a life.

#190 Posted by tahmed32 on February 14, 2009 5:06:27 am

info provided by pakiland..HAHAHA....you mean info like this?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/09/asia/11pakistant.php?page=1

G ilani wanted to tell Bush that he had sent forces into the tribal areas to clean out a major madrassa where hard-line ideology and intolerance were part of the daily curriculum. There were roughly 25,000 such private Islamic schools around Pakistan, though only a small number of them regularly bred young terrorists. The one he decided to target was run by the Haqqani faction of Islamic militants, one of the most powerful in the tribal areas.

Though Gilani never knew it, Bush was aware of this gift in advance. The National Security Agency had picked up intercepts indicating that a Pakistani unit warned the leadership of the school about what was coming before carrying out its raid. "They must have called 1-800-HAQQANI," said one person who was familiar with the intercepted conversation. According to another, the account of the warning sent to the school was almost comic. "It was something like, 'Hey, we're going to hit your place in a few days, so if anyone important is there, you might want to tell them to scram.' "

When the "attack" on the madrassa came, the Pakistani forces grabbed a few guns and hauled away a few teenagers. Sure enough, a few days later Gilani showed up in the Oval Office and conveyed the wonderful news to Bush: the great crackdown on the madrassas had begun. The officials in the room — Bush; his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley; and others — did not want to confront Gilani with the evidence that the school had been warned. That would have required revealing sensitive intercepts, and they judged, according to participants in the discussion, that Gilani was both incapable of keeping a secret and incapable of cracking down on his military and intelligence units. Indeed, Gilani may not even have been aware that his gift was a charade: Bush and Hadley may well have known more about the military's actions than the prime minister hims

Re: # 190

tahmed mian,

..... many locals have been saying for a long time that these drones are taking off from kamra and mianwali bases, but the government has been denying it ....... now let's see how urstruly and his merry men react to this news ..... i think we are in for another wave of suicide bombings by those who love death more than we love life ........

.......now, don't be mad at these people - they are simply delivering the prophet's message: "Submit to Islam and be safe. Or agree to the payment of the Jizya, and you and your people will be under our protection, else you will have only yourself to blame for the consequences, for I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life. "

#188 yes, monkeyman. US drones taking off from Pakistan, using info provided by Pakistan, took out 32 (not 27) uzbeks and other scum threatening Pakistan.

hamidm #187 i didnt realize the terrorists were making your life miserable in michigan. who is their leader? mullah limbuagh?? also, one day you are a muslim, the next day you are not. this is very confusing.

Now the militants will retaliate and kill a bunch of pakis..and the paki army will have to retaliate and kill more women and children..

lather rinse repeat...virgins...

Suspected US missile strike kills 27 in Pakistan

By MUNIR AHMAD
The Associated Press
Saturday, February 14, 2009; 8:55 AM

ISLAMABAD -- A suspected U.S. missile strike by a drone aircraft flattened a militant hide-out in northwestern Pakistan on Saturday, killing 27 local and foreign insurgents, intelligence officials said.

Several more purported militants were wounded in the attack in South Waziristan, a militant stronghold near the Afghan border where al-Qaida leaders Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri are believed to be hiding.

The new U.S. administration has brushed off Pakistani criticism that the missile strikes fuel religious extremism and boost anti-American sentiment in the Islamic world's only nuclear-armed nation.

Pilotless U.S. aircraft are believed to have launched more than 30 attacks since July, and American officials say al-Qaida's leadership has been decimated. Pakistani officials say the vast majority of the victims are civilians.

Taliban fighters surrounded the compound targeted Saturday in the village of Shrawangai Nazarkhel and carried away the dead and wounded in several vehicles.

Intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media, said the victims included about 15 ethnic Uzbek militants and several Afghans. Their seniority was unclear.

Two of the officials said dozens of followers of Pakistan's top Taliban leader, Baitullah Mehsud, were staying in the housing compound when it was hit.

Pakistan's former government and the CIA have named Mehsud as the prime suspect behind the December 2007 killing of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto near Islamabad. Pakistani officials accuse him of harboring foreign fighters, including Central Asians linked to al-Qaida, and of training suicide bombers.

The accounts of Saturday's incident could not be verified independently. The tribally governed region is unsafe for reporters. The U.S. Embassy had no comment, while Pakistani government and army spokesman were unavailable.

Pakistani leaders told visiting American envoy Richard Holbrooke earlier this week that the missile strikes kill too many civilians and undermine the government's own counterinsurgency strategy.

Still, many analysts suspect that Pakistan has tacitly consented to the attacks in order not to endanger billions of dollars in American and Western support for its powerful military and its ailing economy.

Pakistan's pro-Western government, led by Bhutto widower Asif Ali Zardari, has signed peace deals with tribal leaders in the northwest while launching a series of military operations of its own against hard-liners.

However, government forces are bogged down in several regions and Taliban militants have sustained a campaign that has included a string of kidnappings and other attacks on foreigners.

On Friday, the kidnappers of an American employee of the United Nations warned they would kill him within 72 hours and issued a grainy 20-second video of the blindfolded captive saying he was "sick and in trouble."

Gunmen seized John Solecki on Feb. 2 after shooting his driver to death as they drove to work in Quetta, a city near the Afghan border.

The kidnappers identified themselves as the Baluchistan Liberation United Front, indicating a link to local separatists rather than the Taliban or al-Qaida.

Officials say the group is unknown and has yet to contact the United Nations.

Fears for Solecki's safety are intense after Taliban militants apparently beheaded an abducted Polish geologist. If confirmed, the Pole's slaying would be the first killing of a Western hostage in Pakistan since American journalist Daniel Pearl was killed in 2002.

Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik on Saturday dismissed the group's demand for the release of 141 women allegedly held in Pakistan.

"I have shared that list of 141 women with authorities and all intelligence agencies. It does not have any reality," Malik told reporters in Quetta.

He said authorities trying to free Solecki were following strong leads and he was "hopeful" they would succeed.

Zardari said in a television interview that the Taliban had expanded their presence to a "huge amount" of Pakistan and were even eyeing a takeover of the state.

He sought to counter the view of many Pakistanis that the country is fighting Islamist militants, who have enjoyed state support in the past, only at Washington's behest.

"We're fighting for the survival of Pakistan. We're not fighting for the survival of anybody else," Zardari said, according to a transcript of his remarks that CBS television said it would air Sunday.

tahmed,

..... why? ..... because misery loves company ...

...... if we have to suffer through swat and fata and long marches and reinstatment of a droopy eyed pco compromised judge, then the horrible hindoos must suffer too ........ beside, being moslems it is our duty to cause mayhem wherever and whenever we can we can - it says so in the koran (the original version, not your revised version)

hamidm: i am a senile old fool, so remind me exactly what you achieve by fomenting trouble in india?

PS: 20 years ago, i heard the same thing from a couple of fauji bhai sahibs at this pizza place in jinnah market ("look, these irregulars have tied down 700k indian soldiers in kashmir"), and asked the same question then. they were furious, and would have declared war on me if the pizza had not been delivered just in time to detract their attention.

tahmed mian,

........ if you weren't such a sissy peacenik, you would ralize that indian moslems, specially hyderabadis, present a great opportunity to pakistan .......... instead of creating goups like lt and whatnot in muridke and mansoora, the isi should focus on cultivating trouble makers in hyderabad - far away from the border......... the idea is to keep the horible hindoos occupied so that they can't cause trouble for us ......... similarly, we should support only indigenous kashmiris in the occupied territories instead of unemployed barbers from okara and god crazed pathans from charsadda ..........

.......... moslems are trouble makers by definition and indian moslems are no exception ...... if used properly these people can turn india into pakistan in no time .....

Re: # 182

What? Born on 11 February?

Don't I know you from somewhere, another life maybe?

Such articles will always appear in DAWN. What else is the mass media capable of?

Expose the truth and the culprits behind all this? Forget it Miss Sarwar.

#122

"Visualize 500 men being beheaded, and you will begin to understand the kind of respect we human beings (non-muslims) associate with your "prophet"."

You are anti musla for nuts. Did you not hear this?

"The murder of a single innocent human being is tantamount to the murder of all humanity, we have been told by Islam"

Islam is like a commercial astrologer who would speak affirmative and negative in one single statement.

#115

"The murder of a single innocent human being is tantamount to the murder of all humanity, we have been told by Islam"

Wow, what a noble thought!

Sau choohe khaake billi haj ko chali!

Did mo follow what he said?

#100 Posted by hamidm2

Long live 'PAPER TIGER!!'

Re: # 177

Pew Research

Ignore the geriatrics incompetence. Eqbal Ahmed and many other academics, political, social activists have come from Hyderabad, but then again tantrums are tantrums no matter from juvenile delinquents or geriatrics.

tahmed, talibanization of pakistan is not just a wish. It is a reality. But you wouldnt know it if it bites you in the ass anyway.

Re: # 175 Tahmed/Hamidm

I don't know what you guys have about Hyderabad Muslims. Is it a diversionary tactic to gloss over the fact that the failing Pakistani state is perhaps beyond rescue? Don't forget - Sania Mirza (ranked 27 in professional womens tennis) is from Hyderabad. There is nothing comparable from all of Pakistan. That should set things in perspective for you all.

dharma #164 if hindu wishes were horses, every sacred cow would walk around on a horse wearing lipstick.

Hamidm: one of the most terrifying experiences I had was on a flight from Nairobi to Mumbai. The plane was boarded by these strange looking creatures, wearing little beards and caps, gesticulating to one another animatedly while pushing and shoving all sorts of objects into the storage bins of the plane. Some of them were accompanied by little tents of some outlandish design that moved in fits and starts. I grew increasingly concerned, and wondered if I shold ask the staff if the destination for this plane was really Mumbai and not the Twilight Zone. Gradually it dawned on me..these critters must be Indian Muslims from Hyderabad!!

Re: # 173 rf786

Sahib:

I am quite aware that MAJ was a 'hard core' constitutionalist with some glaring exceptions*. To not belabor a point, he was a legal genius but at the same time blind to the obvious and vicious forces that he was unleashing in the name of Islam. Forces, that his followers could not have controlled. You see, once you step out on the slippery slope of prejudicialy mixing a specific religion with your politics, all bets are off. Pakistan's subsequent identity crisis and the mess that it finds itself in today are directly traceable to those momentous decisions made in the '40s.

I think that Nehru and Patel correctly guessed that hiding behind a legal argument, Jinnah was merely capitalizing politically on a 'divide-and-conquer' framework that the British had established using the bogey of separate electorates in the '30s. Thus, their agreement to the Partition was an acknowledgment of the religious fires that would inevitably be lit in Pakistan.

Now that the religious party is on in full swing in Pakistan, we on the other side can sit back and watch.


* I am referring to events like (i) the 'Direct Action Day', (ii) overseeing the tribal invasion of J&K in violation of the Standstill agreement, to name the ones that come immediately to mind. I think that YLH will emerge from the woodwork any moment now:)

Re: # 155

Pew Research

Its not only Karachi that is threatened, its the same across the country. Karachi will suffer more for it has deep ethnic fissures and is the only place available for economic migrants. Only positive thing for South Pakistan is the political parties have a much stronger base to resist this phenomena.

MAJ was a hard core constitutionalists and more importantly a true secularist, it was his followers who failed when they incorporated "Islamic" republic of Pakistan in the Objective Resolution passed in 1950 well after the passing away of Jinnah.

We can criticize Jinnah for not leaving a sound legacy or able succession plans but blaming him for the failures of others is wrong and does more damage by losing sight of the real mistake that being the Islamization of Pakistan quite contrary to what Jinnah had envisioned.

On a separate note, Ismailis of Pakistan are also a persecuted minority in Pakistan, thus the disenchantment. We had thriving Christian, Hindu families till the seventies, but all of that has now disappeared, most of my friends of those days have migrated, thanks to the Islamization of Pakistan. Ismailis have also suffered the same fate but to a lesser extent.

#171

Dharma,

"Lot of the hindus are already atheists."
LOL.
Did you know you were born stupid or is it just a latest addition on the series of revelations on chowk?


"The right wing hindu groups are not religious."

Yes. Thakeray and Advani and Devi ji are all subscribers of New Aethists magazine, right?

"The seriosuly religious people of hindusim are not into politics and power."

You mean BJP and RSS are mere pieces of Bollywood fiction?


"They are after spirituality."
Yeah, right. My ass!
-E

Re: # 167
bittersweet,
Lot of the hindus are already atheists. The right wing hindu groups are not religious. The seriosuly religious people of hindusim are not into politics and power. They are after spirituality

re: hamidm2#166
its always a pleasure to interact with a American house muslim.

Faruk

re: dharma# 165

"Hyderabadi muslims have a choice to be very religious without going crazy as the keep their sanity by interacting with non islamic world outside."

Muslims have not figured out how to be religious and not crazy...

Regards,


Faruk

Re: # 166 Hamidm2

Sahib:

When wit fails you, do you turn to personal insults?

#164

Dharma ji,

Complete talibanization of pakistan is good for the rest of the world. It can not last very long...People will learn fast when they experience the idiocy of pure islam themselves."

What about your Bharatva? Will a complete Hindutva of India in next elections be good for the world, cuz your so-called aethistic parameters suggest that people should realize the stupidity of Hinduism.

btw, among monotheistic religions Islam is more practical and modern, no? Save the suffering Hindu-kind goes thru for dirty-darshans!
-E

faruk mian,

.... it is nice to hear from an indian house moslem

Re: # 156 hamidm:
Hyderabadi muslims have a choice to be very religious without going crazy as the keep their sanity by interacting with non islamic world outside. In case of pakistan you will go nuts - so just watch out for your muslims and dont worry about our muslims.

Complete talibanization of pakistan is good for the rest of the world. It can not last very long and will implode with in a decade just like communism did. People will learn the evils of the religion and will become atheists thus saving the world from islamic terrorism. People will learn fast when they experience the idiocy of pure islam themselves.

re: hamidm2 #156

".... by the same token, i have met many indian moslems in america, specially from hyderabad, who never tire of reminding us how good we have it in pakistn while they have to suffer the hindoo yoke ...... they also tell us that we pakis are in trouble because we are not pious moslems since we don't pray five times a day and our women wear short sleeved shirts ............ go figure"

You should take what these folks say with a pinch of salt. Especially the ones from hyderabad. The bit about short sleeve shirts is silly, most of the item girls in Bollywood are Muslim and a disproportionate number from hyderabad.


You must understand that every Urstruly we meet convinces us that our grand parents made the right decision to stay back.


Having said that there is do shortage of idiots on our side of the border either.


Regards,


Faruk

Beena,

"Those who justify the Taliban uprising in Pakistan as an anti-imperialist movement forget...."

Tell me where to stand if not against Imperialists. I don't understand your liberal drama. Taliban were created, right? There was a formula for this product. Somebody did the math, right. Now what's so difficult in realizing what went wrong.

Besides, Taliban are not looking for your or mine endorsement of their version of tribal Islam. If we want to address this phenomenon, it can't be done with drone attacks and operations. The only way is social overhauling, is to ask painful and radical questions (which of course makes you and your likes scared, no?), to eradicate this sort of fanaticism, and that requires an stance against your beloved Capital.

-E

tahmed mian,

..... you are wrong - from what i understand, bewakoof bulleya (aka romair) is back in pakistan and urstruly is hiding in a cave somewhere along the pak-afghan border .....

........ in any case, there is no shortage of idiots in that village - you will see them all on march 12 ..... will you be joining them?

Re: # 158 Hamdim2

Sahib:

You raise an interesting question - albeit on an issue that is destined to be a footnote in Indian history. Did you know that the last Nizam of Hyderabad, the fifth-richest man in all of history according to Forbes (and preceded only by luminaries like the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Czar Nicholas and the Vanderbilts) after initial doubts rose to twice become a member of the Indian Parliament? The proud heir of the Salar Jung family was a dutiful citizen of India who swore by the Indian Constitution in the last years of his life.

So, if there are some of his former subjects who are unhappy 'living under the Hindu yoke', they should follow their Nizam's example. Like the Nizam, they should learn, that only the Indian Constitution can give them the protection that they crave.

hamidm: "pakistan has no shortage of idiots"

there is now a shortage of three idiots at this time though in Pakistan - resulting from the hijrat of yourself, bulleya and urstruly. masadi is making heroic efforts to make up for the shortage, though.

pepe,

..... as you well know, pakistan has no shortage of idiots ..... i think the hyderabadis decided to stay put because they thought the nizam would protect them or they didn't have enough money for the train ride - hyderabad is a long way from pakistan ....... in any case, we are happy they didn't come - of all the moslems in the world they are perhaps the most whiney and dangerous ........

Re: # 156 Hamidm2

Thank you, Sahib, for bringing to my attention those who while 'suffering from the hindu yoke' as they put it, decided to vote with their feet and stay put. You see, their claim would have been taken more seriously like in the case of my Khoja friend who did vote with his feet only to regret it.

And, my name is Pew, PewResearch.

Ciao.

Re: # 155

pepe,

.... by the same token, i have met many indian moslems in america, specially from hyderabad, who never tire of reminding us how good we have it in pakistn while they have to suffer the hindoo yoke ...... they also tell us that we pakis are in trouble because we are not pious moslems since we don't pray five times a day and our women wear short sleeved shirts ............ go figure

........ if i were you, i would keep a close eye on your moslems - they still dream of ruling over you like they did for a thousand years

Re: # 154 rf786

Sahib:

I feel for you as a Karachi denizen and the impending civil war that might yet consume you. That said, I have Muslim friends who left Bombay for Karachi in '47 and left Pakistan for good soon thereafter. Their families are split, and the ones in Bombay are faring better than the ones in Karachi. When I meet them now, on their own they lament what a tragedy, '47 was for them. I can understand this more easily from Hindu refugees from Pakistan who never wanted Partition in the first place, but coming from Muslims (especially the once-Indian ones), this was an eye-opener. Ironically, these Ismaili friends are from the same Khoja clan as Jinnah.

I believe that the events that Jinnah set in motion in the '40s have not yet run their course. '71 was a direct result of events 24 years prior to that. And what you are seeing in FATA/NWFP/Afghanistan and Karachi are the legitimate consequences of events that Jinnah set in motion.

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it!

Re: # 153

Pew Research

I agree with you whole heartedly, but such concerns can be expressed in a civilized manner and your post 153 is a good example whereas the reference to Jinnah was unwarranted. I am a Karachi citizen and arrival of Taliban deeply worries me, as this situation can be exploited as an ethnic issue whereas the real threat is the cultural invasion of obscurantist ideologies.

Re: # 152 rf786

Sahib:

Your advice would gladly have been taken if the Taliban and their Pakistani handlers restricted their activities to their own soil. It would give me no greater pleasure than to see them focus their attention entirely on Pakistan. Unfortunately, they have a tendency to overreach and jump neighbors' fences.

Re: # 150

Pew Research

You worry about Shiv Senna and Bajrang Daal and leave the Taliban to us, we saw what a great job u did in Mumbai.

Re: # 137 Bulleya

Are you the Romair-guy (Pak-flag T-shirt loving guy) who also predicted the emerging economic superpower status of Dubai (not to mention Gwadar)?


For your reading pleasure (at leisure of course):

"Laid-Off Foreigners Flee as Dubai Spirals Down (NYT)"
"I’m really scared of what could happen, because I bought property here,� said Sofia, who asked that her last name be withheld because she is still hunting for a new job. “If I can’t pay it off, I was told I could end up in debtors’ prison.�"

You read that right - prison for loan defaulters!

Cheers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/middleeast/12dub ai.html?em

Poetic justice about to served to the City of Jinnah:

Talibanization of Karachi!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7884222.stm

#145: i see that ar_jun has reached the magic number of 42. the Answer to Everything, as the waiter in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe will tell you.

All this lonely hours, days, weekends, years spent by sriram arjun the US taxpayer who even talks US slang (or at least US comic book slang from the 1940's) on chowk have not gone to waste!

jay "holy cow!" thakeray: i see you addressed a post to me and someone red-flagged it. i didnt red flag the post though - that would be like showing the red flag to a holy bullshitter.

Re: # 137

bewakoof bulleya,

....... you will be glad to know that the automotive industry is doing fine in america - they just happen to be in the southern automotive corridor instead of detroit ........ and with my help they will continue to thrive ...... as always america will emerge from this crises leaner and meaner ..... it still remains that shining city on the hill ..........

...... unlike dubai, paki cab drivers and indian code coolies are not abandoning their cars at new york airport and taking off after running up their credit cards.......

Re: # 125
GF...
oops, it is Muhammed Ghoori the....
all these central asian barbarians/muslas look same to me...

#137 Posted by bulleya on February 12, 2009 9:45:52 pm


they now use obl and taliban as the threats......


so..t-shirts with obl's image on them?

wait...that idea's already taken...after all, this is pakiland we're talking about.

Re: # 129
sattar...
Post 9/11, Bush Admin had to attack some country. If it is not Pakistan, it has to be either Sudan or Iraq or Libya...Bush Jr. has mixed up everything...

Thank you..thank you

I have noted that with in minutes of my posting, some one red flagging it. Good to see that some one is reading it and making an opinion on it.

Police involvement in crimes raising serious questions



Friday, February 13, 2009
By Salis bin Perwaiz

Karachi

Street crime is a serious issue for Karachi, as one man is killed by bandits on a daily basis while many are robbed. A network of dacoits operating at Sharea Faisal has also been active in robbing those returning from foreign countries. It was observed that police officials were also involved in such robberies, and threaten victims to not report the matter to the police station.

////////////from jang of today////////////

Haidm, I recall you had a military escort as soonas you landed in pakiland. It is a good idea...any one without military high ranking connection is a bakra in pakland,

#137 Posted by bulleya AKA Captain Clueless

......the usa used to be a feared world military power.....now it is defeated, humiliated and ridiculed......

And yet, your country bends over to this "defeated, humiliated and ridiculed" nation? Which self-respecting nation would do that?

Remebering Sam Maneksha

In 1971, Mrs Gandhi asked Sam to carry out teh surrender of paki forces in east pakistan. San replied that he will only take the surrender of entire pakistan military, surrender of one wing of pakistan will be carried out by my regional commander.

Sam, if you were alive for another five years, you could have seenthe surrender of the entire paki military.

The contact between Obama and Zardari is especially significant as it comes at a stage when the new White House team is said to be busy revising policy with regard to Pakistan and Afghanistan. The expectation is that Washington is keen to build a regional front against terror, also involving India. It is thought that the possibility of bringing in India may have been brought up by Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke, who took the time out to fly over Swat and other troubled areas. It is uncertain what response Pakistan gave to the idea of New Delhi playing a more prominent role in the battle, but clearly it will be a proposal that will cause some trepidation in Islamabad given the perceived nexus between Kabul and Delhi. There is some evidence that both Washington and London are keen now to push ahead towards some definite outcome to the situation in the region. The appointment by both countries of special envoys

//////from jang of today////////////

At last teh world is realising that India has to have a role in the war on terror.

As I have maintained for a long time, the final ground troops to perfom the resizing of pakistan has to come from India. AS taliban takes over pakiland, it will be de-nuked and finally re-sized by the indian forces.

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shankar #: "How dare you put down Michigan! As a fellow Michigander, I agree with hamid.....BTW, that goddamn mullah Urstruly swore he was out of the US, let alone Michigan."

...if you are, really, as concerned about michigan as you say you are, then i suggest you follow my advice and get your state govt. to ban all pakistani immigrants....look at what they have already done to your, once, beautiful state....it is, now, the laughing stock of the developed world.....with detroit being the armpit of north america......

......the michigan auto industry was legendary.....gm, ford and even chrysler were giants, which scared the living daylights out of competitors.....look at them, now.....bankrupt, defeated, looking for arab shiekhs to bail them out.....

is it only a coincidence that this slide started, when hamidm mian arrived as a consultant to this industry, from pakistan.......is it really a coincidence?......

.....and was there any chance of 9/11, before urstruly entered michigan.......was there

......the usa used to be a feared world military power.....now it is defeated, humiliated and ridiculed......people no longer tell their innocent children that if they don't go to sleep the american army will come and kill them.....they now use obl and taliban as the threats......

.....is it a mere coincidence that the decline of the us military started when urstruly and hamidm (and tahmad) migrated to the usa....and started fighting their global battles from the battlefields of a keyboard......

there isn't a single battle or war, which hamidm mian doesn't want his american neighbors' kids to get killed for.....and there isn't a single battle or war, for which he or his next 20 generations will volunteer.....and there isn't a jihad in the world, an insurgency in the world against americans, which urstruly doesn't support......but there isn't a single jihad for which he will ever volunteer......

we got rid of these guys from pakistan.....but we didn't realize that the Internet would be invented....little did we know that they would be back fighting their battles in pakistan, from their browsers, urging other poeple's children to fight.......

.....however, they are in michigan now.......and they will take their pakistani incompetence and wars to michigan.....i see a very dark future for michigan......massive layoffs and the emergence of violence.......at which point, these guys will migate to australia........

....if you don't believe me, do keep in mind that i predicted the demise of the us military, the humiliation of bush; not to mention the emergence of al-qaeda in india........

Re: # 127
masadi...
the kind of brotherhood members of armed gangs display while looting common poeple....

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Re: # 132 do not enter in to logical arguments with jihadi animals

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#127 Posted by masadi

[Ajeya sahib, the kind of brotherhood/sisterhood Islam creates based on common origin of humankind no liberal agenda can ever achieve. Know that as fact, and shut up with the BS.]

I have read that one of the therapies for psychiatric patients who are lunatics in some major aspect of their psyche but functional otherwise, is to try to use the functional part to recognize the non-functional. Use step-by-step reasoning to progress towards that goal. So I'll try this here.

Step 1: Um, mr. masadi, so are you saying that in an Islamic society, Muslims and non-Muslims have equal rights?

(an aside to onlookers: don't make too much noise, or do anything to upset the patient.)

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PAKISTAN: Timeline on Swat Valley turbulence
INSTEAD OF AREESTING THSES CRIMINAL AND THUGS JUST SHOOT EM.
11 February 2009 (IRIN) - Understanding the humanitarian situation in turbulent Swat Valley, some 160km from Islamabad in North West Frontier Province (NWFP), requires some knowledge of the political background to the current tensions and violence.
In 1995 radical clerical leader Sufi Muhammad Khan, leader of Tehrik-e-Nifaz e Shariah-e-Mohammadi (TNSM) in Swat Valley, demanded imposition of Islamic law in the area. Violence followed as the Frontier Constabulary, a paramilitary force, began an operation against Khan. Tourism, a major source of income, was disrupted and 13 militants died in fighting.

After the operation, the NWFP government agreed to enforce Shariah law in Malakand Division (in Swat District). TNSM's main demand - the replacement of regular courts with Islamic courts - was partially met, but arguments over the peace deal led to sporadic violence.

In 2001 Sufi Muhammad Khan took a force of some 10,000 people from Swat and the tribal areas to fight against US forces invading Afghanistan. Nearly 3,000 were killed, while others were jailed in Afghanistan or sent back to Pakistan, including Sufi Muhammad Khan, who was imprisoned. The TNSM was banned by the government.

In 2002 Sufi Muhammad Khan's son-in-law, the firebrand cleric Maulana Fazalullah, emerged as a force in Swat and set up his headquarters at Imam Dehri. Linked to the militant Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), he stepped up efforts to impose hardline Islam.

In January 2003 incidents of violence began to increase in Swat. The Afghan writer Fazal Wahab, whose work was viewed as being critical of Osama bin-Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan, was shot dead in Swat by unidentified assailants.

Between 2004 and 2007 Maulana Fazalullah set up at least 30 illegal FM radio stations to get his message across. Girls’ education and any active role for women in society was opposed. Several schools, music shops and barbers’ businesses were attacked.

2007

July 2007 - Violence in Swat increases after Fazalullah urges his followers to launch 'jihad' (holy war) to avenge an operation carried out by the Pakistan military against the Lal Masjid (mosque) in Islamabad, where clerical leaders were accused by the government of harbouring “terrorists�.

4 July 2007 - Four civilians are killed and two police wounded by a roadside bomb. In a separate incident a policemen is killed and four others injured in a rocket attack on a police station in the Matta area of Swat District.

12 July 2007 - A suicide bomber kills three police.

13 July 2007 - President Pervez Musharraf approves a plan to deploy paramilitary forces in Swat to crush growing militancy. Troops are positioned in Swat.

15 July 2007 - At least 13 paramilitary personnel and six civilians, including three children, are killed and more than 50 people injured at Matta in Swat District when two suicide bombers ram two cars packed with explosives into an army convoy.

August 2007 - NGOs and international humanitarian organisations are asked by the administration to leave Swat after threats by militants. Attacks on several girls' schools are reported.

30 August 2007 - Seven security forces’ personnel are killed as militants attack a checkpoint in Swat. Owners of video centres and barber’s shops receive threatening letters.

21 September 2007 - Maulana Fazalullah urged his supporters to attack government officials after a demand to release three militants held after a hotel bombing incident was rejected by the authorities.

October 2007 - Fazalullah sets up his own Islamic courts.

21 October 2007 - Eighteen soldiers and two civilians die and 35 others, including nine civilians, are injured in a bomb blast aimed at a vehicle carrying paramilitary personnel at Nawan Killi, about 1km from Swat city.

26-29 October 2007 - Fierce clashes erupt between troops and militants in Swat, leaving at least 29 dead. Thirteen security personnel are executed by militants.

1-2 November 2007 - Fighting resumes after a brief ceasefire. 60-70 people die after a clash in Khwazakhela town; 48 troops who surrendered to militants are paraded in public.

3-6 November 2007 - Militants extend their hold over Swat, capturing key towns including Madyan and Kalam.

November 2007 - The Pakistan military intensifies its operation in Swat. Helicopter gunships pound villages. Thousands flee the valley. There are conflicting accounts of casualties, but dozens are feared dead.

28 November - 6 December 2007 - Security forces say militants have been forced out of Swat and many key leaders arrested. Key centres such as Imam Dehri are seized. Hundreds are feared dead in the operation; 500,000 of Swat’s 1.8 million people are reported to have fled.

23 December 2007 - Fourteen die in a suicide attack on a military convoy near Mingora, Swat’s main city. Sporadic violence continues in Swat, including attacks on shops, schools and government buildings.

2008

January 2008 - Low-level violence between troops and militants continues in Swat.

29 February 2008 - Forty killed and more than 75 wounded when a suicide bomber targets the funeral of a police officer in Mingora.

1 March 2008 - Militants behead a 22-year-old man accused of passing on information to the security forces.

April 2008 - NWFP government launches a fresh peace process, setting up a committee to initiate dialogue with different groups of militants. Militant leaders, including Fazalullah, re-enter Swat. Maulana Sufi Muhammad Khan of the banned TNSM is released.

21 May 2008 - Taliban militants operating under Fazalullah in Swat District sign a 16-point peace agreement with the NWFP government and agree to disband their militia; they also denounce suicide attacks and stop attacks on the security forces and government buildings.

June-July 2008 - Attacks on schools and other buildings continue in Swat. Militants say the government refused to keep its part of the peace deal by retaining troops. At least 50 girls’ schools are reported to have been attacked by militants in 2008. Thousands of girls quit school, fearing for their safety.

27-30 July 2008 - Fierce clashes erupt again, after incidents involving the killing of military personnel.

August-December 2008 - The military moves tanks, heavy artillery and helicopters into Swat to combat militants. Hundreds are reported killed in heavy clashes. Reports of atrocities by militants increase - including the killing of women who decline to stop work and public beheadings of those accused of spying. Human rights activists say 60 percent of Swat's 1.8 million people have fled. Thousands of homes are reported to have been damaged and 150 schools destroyed.

December 2008 - Press reports say the militants control 75 percent of Swat. Fazalullah announces a ban on education for girls.

29 January 2009 - Pakistan's government announces a new strategy to combat militancy in Swat and pledges to ensure girls resume schooling. Schools for girls remain closed in Swat after the winter break leaving 80,000 girls out of school. Militants are reported to have seized control of almost all of Swat.

31 January 2009 - Fazalullah, leader of the TTP in Swat, says he will relax the ban on education to allow girls to attend school up to grade 5. The ban had been met by a nationwide outcry.

February 2009 - Renewed military offensives are reported against militants as the Pakistan Army pledges to regain control of Swat. Mingora said to be under government control. Fierce fighting continues and more people flee.

hamidm, here’s my take on Iraq, contrary to yours …

As an american, I care diddly about democracy in iraq … i can’t even locate that $h!t hole on the world map … and it doesn’t matter how many people the dictator gassed. Half of Africa is dying of civil wars and starvation (i am told) … and all I care about in the next si swimsuit edition and the bikini girl on american idol …

… and what about my tax dollars spent on iraqi democracy? Who will pay me back? And what about our 4000 rednecks killed? Their lives would have been better spent growing potatoes in idaho for my super-size fries. So to hell with iraqi democracy … all I know is that gas is cheap, I can drag my large ass in and out of my suv, and watch jessica simpson’s tits in high def … screw the iraqis … the invasion was nothing more than an expensive misadventure to entertain idiots like bush and tahmed … with no wmds or 9/11 connection, these idiots are now putting lipstick on a pig …

Here’s a clip … dick cheney in 1992 … explaining why it was a good idea to leave saddam in power in 1990 … we’ve been had … it’s time to slaughter the pig and make bacon …

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT7Ik_X1HU0&feature=related

but..but..mr. masadi: I was questioning what you said about "random" violence by taliban. Now you tell me that there is no random violence, and if there is the evil elite, not the taliban, are responsible for it anyway. This is even more confusing than hamidm trying to be funny. :-(

Ajeya writes "Here's further proof that Islam CANNOT erase humanity from human beings. Humanity will win in the end"

Ajeya sahib, the kind of brotherhood/sisterhood Islam creates based on common origin of humankind no liberal agenda can ever achieve. Know that as fact, and shut up with the BS.

TNITC masadi

tahmed writes "taliban violence in swat is random?"

That is what you imply when you invoke fear that it could happen to anyone in Pakistan, as far away as Lahore. Understand what you write. Taliban violence is not random it is patterend and socially constructed by your masters who bomb and behead millions from afar, as they have done in Iraq recently....

Have a nice day and if you don't have a conscience, buy one, I hear in the capitalist heaven you live in, everything is for sale including mamas and papas...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 85 nkg: "Even Mehmood of Ghajni (Afghan raider, who is National Icon for Paki youth) lost 17 times to rajputs before succeessfully conquering India( I think this part of history of 17 losses is not recorded in Paki history)..."

Just a little correction in the facts of history nkg...Mahmud-i-Ghaznavi attacked 17 times and decimated his enemies 17 times (like a nasty tornado hitting your ancestors almost every year), to carry the loot and plunder to his favorite home town, Ghazni...that is why you all hate him so much...remember? With him came Al Biruni who wrote enlightened narrative of those times...

And here's a response to this article. The courageous amongst muslims will overcome their fear and suppression from Islam in the end.

Ashiq, Dhaka, Bangladesh:

hi!
This is Ashiq from Dhaka, Bangladesh. I am writing this mail only to thank you for sharing your
experience with us in such a nice writing. I think almost all of our Muslim brotherhood in Bangladesh have the same childhood experience as yours but only few of them actually can overcome the fear.
Thank you again
Take care.
Ashiq

Here's further proof that Islam CANNOT erase humanity from human beings. Humanity will win in the end.


My Experience With Islam
(An apostate’s testimony)

Jahed Ahmed
E-mail: worldcitizen73@yahoo.com

"I am not a citizen of Greece or Athens; I am a citizen of the world." About twenty-five hundred years have passed since a Greek philosopher said so, and in the meantime, human civilizations have made magnificent progress. Our knowledge about the world and universe has increased by many folds; yet in our modern world, there are not many people who take pride in their first identity as a member of the mankind. Even to date, mankind is divided into so many factions under identities defined by race, religion, nationality, etc. Not so long ago, I myself also took pride in my first identity as a Muslim. It was Islam that defined my personal identity of who I am, my daily activities and my morals. It went as far as regulating from what kind of food I should eat to what kind people I should make friends with. How sad it is to realize- I've spent so many years of my life under an ideology which is authoritarian, gender-biased, dogmatic and highly provincial in its outlook toward humanity. I will provide solid basis for saying so about my ex-religion. But before that, let me give my personal background.

Birth and My Family: I was born in 1973 in a middle class Muslim family in Bangladesh. My parents had named me after Islam’s prophet Mohammed. My name, therefore, is Mohammed Jahed Ahmed. ‘Ahmed’ is also another name of Prophet Mohammed. It is a widely held belief among Muslims that, if a person is named after the prophet, in the 'after life' on 'the day of judgment', Prophet would recommend him/her to Allah for entry to paradise. I lost my father when I was just two & half years. So I'm not able to recall any personal memory with him, but from what I heard from my mother, relatives and all the acquaintances of my father- he was a very benevolent & religious man. And so was my mother who passed away a year ago. I've three elder brothers and one sister, who is oldest. In terms of their positions in Islam, my mother, all my brothers and sister, possibly belong to ‘mainstream Muslims,' who are not only mistaken about their beliefs in Islam, but often are torn between the modernity on one side and a doctrine belonging to the 7th century Arab peninsula on the other side. (All religions, more or less, are constraints to the spirit of freedom of inquiry and an independent conscience, yet here I'd limit myself to Islam only because of my background). I will save more comments about the ‘mainstream Muslims' for a later time.

My Childhood/Adolescence Period (1973 to 1992) as a Pious Muslim Boy: Up to the age of sixteen or seventeen, I spent time in my village. My childhood education started both in the school and mosque simultaneously. From the age of six, I started going to the government funded primary school in the village for primary education, and to the mosque in the neighborhood for Islamic education. I will mainly focus on Islamic education that I received in mosque from the Maulana (a Muslim priest, we called him 'hujoor'). My Islamic education consisted of lessons on reading, reciting and occasionally memorizing verses, suras, of the Quran. Besides, we were taught- how to perform Islamic rituals like daily five time prayers, how to eat, bath and do toilets in an Islamic way; then fasting for a month in a year dictated by the Islamic calendar, performing Muslim funerals etc. A significant portion of our Islamic education consisted of listening to the fabricated and passionate stories of the Prophet Muhammad’s life and sayings (Hadeeth). We were reminded every now and then - Islam is the truest religion, there is no God but Allah; Prophet Muhammad is Allah’s last messenger, and Quran is Allah’s message toward mankind through His messenger. We were often told about stories focusing supernatural abilities of Prophet Muhammad (e.g. Prophet Muhammad’s meeting with Allah during an event known as Miraj; stories about how Prophet received Allah’s instructions through angel Gabriel etc). Any person even with slightest trace of a doubt in these stories, we were told, lacks Iman, which constitute first of the five main pillars of Islam. All the Maulanas and pious Muslims I knew thus created a kind of impression of Prophet Muhammad in my mind, which was mixed with fear, respect and awes. Many considered it not only inappropriate, but also sinful to think of Muhammad as an ordinary human being. How could he be an ordinary person, who has shown so many supernatural activities (Mujejas)? – we heard from Maulana and other orthodox Muslims. On one occasion, we were told, with mere raise of Prophet’s index finger, the whole moon broke into two pieces! ‘Still, non-believers didn’t have faith in him,’ said the Maulana. We were told, only Muslims shall enter the heaven after death (among them, first, would enter those, who have lived their lives as true Muslims). We were repeatedly told- among the Allah’s cursed people and serious enemies are the idol-worshippers (Hindus), Nasara (Christians), and Jews. As we were being told, often the narration was supplemented by tales from the Prophet’s life; things he said about these groups of people, and the troubles Prophet faced from such people during his life time. We were told- idle worshippers (Hindus), Nasara (Christians), and Jews are the enemies of Islam, and we should always keep distance from them. I remember, on more than one occasions, we were punished by the Maulana for attending the Hindu village fair (Rat Jatra). I had yet to meet any Christian or Jew in person, and only occasionally saw some Hindus. But every time I saw them, I kept a safe distance. Ah! only if I could convert just one of them to Islam! Sometimes I thought. We were warned repeatedly to be alert- so as never to commit Sheerk, the gravest sin in Islam, which means, equating Allah with any other entity. Since Hindus believe in many Gods/Goddesses (polytheism), they are among the most dangerous sinners in the world, we were told. And since Hindus commit Sheerk, unlike for Muslims, you cannot wish eternal peace for a Hindu, not so even upon his/her death. If we heard the death of a Muslim, we were taught to recite an Arabic prayer (Inna Lillahi Oa Inna Ilahi Rajeon), which is totally different from what we would recite upon hearing the death of a Hindu (Fee nari jahannama khalidin- wishing eternal hell fire!). As for Christians and Jews, we were told, even though their scriptures (New & Old Testament in Bible) once contained words from the Allah through authentic Prophets, whom Quran and Muhammed acknowledge; nevertheless, they (Christians and Jews) have deteriorated their scriptures, don’t have faith in Muhammad, and therefore, are not true believers! Girls were instructed to cover their body and put veils on heads, according to Islamic ways. I clearly remember having heard from Maulana on one occasion that, a woman who doesn’t cover her body and put veils on head, is like a peeled off banana sold in the open market. If a peeled off banana is sold in the market, would you buy it? asked the Maulana. So is a woman without coverings! No body is going to like her. This is what constituted my childhood Islamic education. Needless to say, I took all such sayings and instructions in plain faith, and never doubted it for all the people in my world were Muslims at that time. I was quite pious myself. I said five times prayers and recited Quran almost on a daily basis. Often I thanked Allah for having created me as a Muslim. I will give one more example to illustrate- how Maulana’s teaching shaped my views about other religions. Starting from third standard, we had a subject called Dharma Shikhsa ('Religion Study') in our school. For us, Religion Study meant Islamic studies since there were no Hindu students in our class. Since question papers were not made by our own school teachers, rather, by a group of teachers of the local Thana (police station), same set of question papers were sent to different schools, of which some had Hindu students. Therefore, the question paper on Religion Study had two different sections. First half was on Islam and second half was on Hindu Religion. During exam, once we were handed over question papers, the first thing we, the Muslim students, would do was crossing out questions on Hindu Religion. We crossed out the Hindu section such a way that almost nothing would be readable thereafter. We did so this because we thought, even looking at questions on Hindu Religion was a great sin! Later in life, after being doubtful about Maulana’s teaching, I tried to learn the basis of such parochial and dogmatic views, and I found my answer in Quran itself. I will come to that later.

In 1990, I finished my secondary education (SSC), left my village and went to Dhaka, the capital city, to pursue higher secondary (HSC) education. There I stayed for about two and half years, again as a faithful Muslim. Of course, shifting from a small village to the capital city was a remarkable event, and I learned a lot of new things previously unknown to me, nevertheless, nothing happened in my life to reevaluate my Islamic beliefs. For example, now I studied in a famous Christian Missionary College and met many Christian and Hindu teachers and students; however, I remained very much a ‘mainstream Muslim' with the typical basic beliefs such as- Islam is the truest religion in the world, Quran is Allah’s words and Prophet Muhammad is Allah’s true messenger. Another important concept that was repeatedly installed into our mind by Maulana and all the Muslims I knew was sentiment of Muslim Umma, which means all fellow Muslims are my brothers and sisters, and I must always pray for them. All the Islamic gatherings I attended would end up with a passionate prayer (Doa) and it was about the well being of all Muslims in the world. I don’t recall even a single event that included prayer for any non-Muslims! Whole prayer revolved around the benefits of Muslim brotherhood. Yet cracks in my Islamic beliefs didn't start to appear until I went to India for higher studies.

My Stay in India (1993 to 1998)--Beginning of Skepticism: Staying in India for five long years is one of the most significant events in my life. It was in India when I experienced my first love, memory of which I cherish to date. Often, the name ‘India’ gives me feelings of nostalgia, more than the word ‘Bangladesh’- my own country. I met quite a few very decent, liberal and caring people; we became good friends and are so till now. Again, it was in India, for the first time in life, I experienced and was taken aback by the anthropological, cultural and religious diversity of human beings. So many people of such a diverse nature, so many cultures, so many language; yet it is a single country! My acquaintance with such amazing diversity of people and their culture in India played an important role in later development of humanist philosophy in my mind. Of my five years of stay, I spent first three years in Bangalore, the capital city of Karanataka, a south Indian state, and next two years in Mysore, another well known and historic town in Karnataka state. I need to elaborate a bit about my first love as this experience is related to later development of the skepticism in my mind.

It was while I was in Bangalore doing my first year of B.Sc course, I fell in love with a school going Hindu girl living in the neighborhood. I had a small motorbike and it was probably July, 1993: just two months ago we came to India. We, the five Bangladeshi students (three Hindus, two Muslims), rented a house in an area which was within the 2-3 kilometers distance from our college. One day afternoon, after the college, I was roaming on my motorbike with my roommate on the backseat. We were simply watching the residences, shops, people in the neighborhood and thinking how they were different than what we saw back home. I saw a girl on the roof of a house, near by the Hindu temple, located just a two blocks down the road from our house. I don’t know why, I got off my motorbike, kept staring at the girl for quite sometime and was not feeling to turn my eyes away at all. She was not any beauty queen or the kind of heroin we see in popular Hindi films. She was just a plain girl in plain attire and was looking at us with her friend standing next to her. Yet I seem to have lost myself in her plain beauty. I experienced what people call ‘love at the first sight’. This girl has been created just for me. I took delight in thinking so. For days and nights she was in my mind, often appearing in dreams. I gave her the nick ROJA, after the title of a south Indian super hit film at that time, which was based on a romantic love story between a Muslim girl and a Hindu boy. I found out Roja was a student of ninth standard in the local school (Auden High School, Banashankari 1st Stage, Bangalore). Within a few days, I got it all by heart- time she would go to school at, her returning time from the school, and the time when she would go to the temple in the evening, often with her friend. I followed her silently for two years without daring to talk to her. At last one day after two years, I followed her to the school in a bus with the courage of a close friend of mine, who accompanied me to her school. I talked to her and liked it very much. She herself also appeared to be interested in me. A month went by, I didn’t let her know- I was from Bangladesh. Instead, I said, I was from West Bengal, a province of India, where people speak same language as people do in Bangladesh. After a month, I disclosed my real identity and said, I am a Bangladeshi Muslim. After two weeks, she declined to continue relationship on the ground that an uncle of hers has seen her with me and informed her parents. It should be mentioned that her parents were south Indian Brahmins--known to be very orthodox among Indian Hindus. To date I wonder, why did she withdrew herself from the relation? Is it because once she learned I was a Muslim from Bangladesh, she didn’t see much hopes in our relation? Although she was not an orthodox girl herself, her parents were and so was her society. Later, when I told my brother and mother about this incident, I was rebuked for being so close with a 'Hindu girl.' My first love ended painfully leaving a big question in my mind. Why did it happen that I--despite being a Muslim--fell in love with a Hindu girl, and that too, so passionately? Why did I feel so much for her when there were so many other girls elsewhere? Why couldn’t my religion stop me? Is then what people say right, meaning- love is blind and doesn’t care about the boundaries of race, religion and country? So only rational explanation I came up with was--for a young boy of my age, falling in love with a young girl is very natural, there is nothing wrong with it since we both are humans with emotions. It's not love but the religion which must be artificial, I thought. Unlike my affiliation with religion where many people influenced me, no one induced me to love Roja. It just happened because we bothl are humans.

For couples of week, I couldn’t concentrate on my studies. I felt, my life had no meaning. I was quite shocked over a long period of time. So many things kept popping up in my mind. I studied human anatomy, physiology in my B.Sc class. Aren’t they (human body and physiology) same throughout whole human race? Is the physiology of a Hindu different from that of a Muslim? Doesn’t it mean, we all are from the same origin, be it God or whatsoever? Why does it matter, if some people call the creator Allah and others call Bhagwan, or God? Is the religion man made then? Rudimentary signs of skepticism started developing in my mind. However, I still didn’t start to scrutinize my religion. In the meantime, while in college, I made some very great friends and many of them happened to be Hindu Brahmins (others were non-Brahmin Hindus). We became very intimate. Often I would go to their houses and spend time. Some of my friends’ mothers reminded me very much of my own mother left in Bangladesh. Their love and affections toward their son and his friend (me) , every day concerns, asking repeatedly for God’s favor for the well being of their children, etc were just like those of a Bangladeshi mother. I will give one example. After purchasing a new motorbike, my land lady wouldn't let me ride it second time without ensuring that I’ve first sought Goddess' blessing for a safe ride! She performed a small puja (a Hindu ritual) on my new motorcycle. I sought an answer to the question: why did she ask me to perform a puja when she knew- I was a Muslim & didn’t believe in such thing? Only explanation was: she loves me just like her own son and doesn’t want me to be deprived of God's/Goddess’ blessing. She did- what she believed is the best for me. I realized- beyond the layers of religions and customs, she too is a mother, just like my own. From a close distance, I observed many Hindu customs and rituals. But in a lot of ways, south Indian Hindu customs and traditions were different than those we saw among Bengali Hindus. I participated in many Hindu festivals and ceremonies. Even for me, Hindu events like Hooli (playing with colors), Dewali, became matters of great celebrations. In August 1996, I finished my B.Sc degree, left Bangalore for Mysore, which is some 135 Kms away from Bangalore. There also I made quite a few very good friends. When we finished first year of our Master’s program (1996-1997), our class went on a month long all India trip. That was very recreational and educative. For a month, teachers, boys and girls were together. We ate together, slept together and had chats, fun together. Previously, I went on a short trip while I was in Bangalore. To date, some of my best friends are from India. My acquaintance and practical experiences with Indian friends made me realize- there are good people in every religion and culture. It gave rise to certain questions in my mind. My own experience came in clear contradictions with what I often heard about Hindus & their religion back home. I asked myself, are the views of many Muslims about Hindus right? I remember having being warned by my mother, prior to my every departure to India: “son, always remember, that’s a land of Hindus! Always be cautious while dealing with Hindus. You're a Muslim boy all alone. They could kill you (given your argumentative nature).� Though I know it’s just a popular misconception, I wonder, does Islam itself hold a favorable view of Hindus, and believers of other religions? I felt very helpless to recall my Maulana’s teachings: Muslims can wish peace only for Muslims. If a Hindu dies, the immediate reaction of a pious Muslim should be to wish him/her eternal hell fire! I don’t care so much about other Hindus as I do about those I’m close to. How could I wish hell fire, God forbids, say, if I hear, Naganand, my dear friend, or Biswarup, a long time buddy of mine, has died? How could the truest religion in the world hold such a parochial and misanthropic view? Are not Hindus human beings too? Then, is it because religion is man made, and therefore could not succeed in overcoming typical human selfishness and chauvinism such as wishing and doing good to the members of one’s own community only (‘racial prejudice’)? During the last two years of my stay in India, my mind remained preoccupied with all such questions. All these I am saying not to imply that all the Hindu people I met in India are equally great and all the Muslim people I know in Bangladesh are bad! Not at all! Even at that time, I clearly realized- no where people are purely homogenous in their characteristics. I did encounter a few Hindu fanatics too in India. Nevertheless, I couldn’t help asking myself: why do I belong to a religion whose teachings contradict with real life experience? I would not elaborate more about my experiences in India except that it was during last three years (1995 to 1998) of my stay in India, when I started being skeptical about Islam. It was a powerful but a silent storm within my mind. I sought explanations for some of the contradictions about religions I faced in India only at a later stage. In July, 1998, I finished my Master’s degree in Biotechnology with first class distinction and left India permanently.

Back to Bangladesh (1998-2000)--My Faith Becomes Shaken: I came back to Bangladesh and started preparing myself for graduate studies in the USA. From mid July 1998 to mid July 2000, I was in Bangladesh. At that time, I started collecting books on philosophy, mostly written in Bangla. I learned about rationalism, atheism, skepticism and was particularly attracted by the writings of Aroj Ali Matubbor, a self–made Bangladeshi Philosopher with no academic training or background. I was happy to learn there are others who also don’t take religious teachings in plain faith. Aroj Ali’s books were interesting, provocative but his style was more like Socrates— not to draw any ultimate conclusion about a topic himself but to leave the readers’ with a question in mind. It was like a ‘compare and contrast’ approach. He would question and discuss validity of many Islamic theories, rituals alongside their rationalistic explanations. I believe this was a brilliant style to avoid attacks from the mullahs. For example: Aroj Ali asked, is it possible for a single individual to be the kindest and the most just at the same time? According to him, a person sticking to justice can’t always indulge in kindness, or the kindest person always cannot be the most just. But we know, according to Quran, Allah is said to be the kindest and the most just!

Another humanist and rationalistic iconoclast of the time was late Professor Ahmed Shariff of Dhaka University, Bangladesh. I must admit, I was heavily influenced by his writings, which univocally emphasized reason over blind faith. Not so surprising, in Bangladesh he was declared a ‘Murtad’ (nonbeliever and an enemy of Islam) by the Mullas (Muslim clergies). Like Aroj Ali, Professor Shariff also donated his dead body for Medical research through will prior to his death. After Prof. Shariff died in 1999, I collected books by him, read them, and also I read articles on him written by others. One thing struck my mind very much: even those who disagreed with his opinion on religion admitted - Prof. Shariff led a thoroughly honest life. I couldn’t help asking myself a question: Prof. Shariff, beyond doubt, was an atheist; yet he was an honest man. Doesn’t it imply- one can lead a decent & honest life without sticking to religion? I kept thinking about the issue for several days. If there was an afterlife as Islam & other religions say, Shariff, for sure, would suffer the eternal hell fire, but would it be fair? I pondered. Why should an honest man be punished so severely by Allah the most merciful, the omnibolent? Is it just because Shariff didn’t lead a life according to Allah’s prescription? I didn’t find any satisfactory answer. Another rationalistic writer who influenced me heavily was Prabir Ghosh of Calcutta, India. His wekk known Bengali book, “Aloukik noy, Loukik� (“Natural, not supernatural�) is full of scientific and rationalistic explanations for many so-called miracles and supernatural phenomena. Other Bangladeshi writers whom I had read, and who were critical of Islamic ideology were late Prof. Humayun Azad, author Taslima Nasrin. By then, Taslima Nasrin was an internationally well-known feminist writer. It should be mentioned that, like Professor Shariff, Mullas declared Taslima as well a ‘Murtad’ and issued fatwa (ruling based on Islamic laws) against her (still there is a big bounty for her head). I started losing faith in Islam. At home, often I was rebuked for not saying prayers by my mother and brothers. My mother at that time commented, “I made a great mistake by permitting you to go to India! Now I understand what Hindus have done to you!� Fortunately, a nephew of mine was a Master’s degree student in Social Studies. At secondary school, he was a classmate of mine and we are of same age. I had discussed with him many philosophical issues. We discussed together Plato’s famous Republic, how Plato’s views had influenced later Christianity, how Aristotle, a long time student at Plato’s Academy, differed from his master through rationalistic explanation of nature and human mind, etc. As for the Islam, we both concluded, Quran is a modified extension of Old Testament. Thus I spent my time in Bangladesh after retuning from India. I left Bangladesh for USA in July, 2000.

In USA- I Become a Humanist (July 2000 till present): By the end of July 2000, I came to the USA on student visa (F-1) and joined Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado, to do Ph.D. studies in Cell & Molecular Biology. It was indeed a big transition in my life. A new culture, a new population and a new country several thousand miles apart from my own. Interestingly, I didn’t at all experience what is known as ‘cultural shock.' Probably, the liberal philosophical outlook that developed in my mind over past years was a reason. Often on the campus I saw boys and girls in their late teenage or early 20s walk, roam together and kissed each other in public. Though at times I felt miserable at myself, I was impressed to notice the trend of American culture that unlike back home, when a boy and a girl meet and like each other; race, religion hardly matter in their friendship or romantic relation (except for a few isolated cases). Sometimes I wished I met my Roja in USA, instead of India! For the first time I had free access to internet, in my lab, departmental library and Morgan library on the campus. A new world opened up before me. I got absorbed into surfing websites that contained articles which I was looking forward to read. Never before did I have a chance to read so many articles by so many great thinkers such as Spinoza, Voltaire, John Locke, Einstein, Bertrand Russell, Darwin, Thomas Pine, and Jefferson.

With help of internet search engine, I re-discovered CSCICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigations of Claims of the Paranormals). It may be mentioned, in Bangladesh I read about CSICOP and their activities in Probhir Gosh’s book. After visiting the CSICOP, I came to know about the Council for Secular Humanism-CSH (www.secularhumanism.org), probably the largest organization of humanists, atheists, and agnostics in North America. Joy abounded in me when I discovered- I’m not alone and there are so many people in the world who think in similar direction about organized religions and their futileness! I contacted CSH to inform- I’m a humanist and I do share their principles and views. They responded with greetings, told me they have Taslima Nasrin as one of their fellows and provided me with a list of internet links to other humanist organizations which are affiliated with them. Among them was Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society–ISIS (www.secularislam.org). At ISIS website, I found a good number of articles written by the learned scholars of Muslim origin which debunked many popular myths associated with Islam, Muhammad and Quran. I found answers to many of my questions over there. I read history of the compilation of Quran written by Ibne Warraq, a Muslim apostate and a scholar by any definition; contradictions and ambiguities in Quranic verses written by Syed Kamran Mirza Besides, I found it very interesting to learn about a wide range of freethinkers that swayed Islam and its history. One such freethinker of Muslim origin is poet Al Ma’arri (973-1057), sometimes known as Eastern Lucretius. For Al-Ma'arri, religion is a "fable invented by the ancients," worthless except for those who exploit the credulous masses. Another well known skeptic of Muslim origin is Omar Khayam, also a great poet and mathematician, who said:

“Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss’d
Of the Two Worlds so learnedly, are thrust
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
Are scatter’d, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.�

The Birth of Mukto-Mona: It was most probably Mr. Jamal Hasan, a Bangladeshii-American activist, who wrote to me personally with a request to join a popular Bangladeshi forum called NFB (News from Bangladeshi). He collected my address from the ISIS website. At the NFB site, I came across quite a few fellow-Bangladeshi freethinkers living abroad, who considered themselves as apostates. Only a handful of secularists and freethinkers fighting the large circle of mullahs amid great spirit and enthusiasm at that time ( second half of the year 2000) at NFB included Syed Kamran Mirza, Jamal Hasan, fatemolla, Dr. Jaffor Ullah, late Narayan Gupta and Dr. Shabbir Ahmed, Aparthib Zaman. Avijit and I were just new additions to the "kafir-nastik" group and I was the youngest member. We wrote articles on a regular basis. It was interesting to see how crazily Mullas reacted to our sharp criticisms of Islam. Often we received hate mails from Mullas. While most of those 'hate-mails' were from Bangladeshi Muslims, others were from Islamic fanatics outside Bangladesh. The Mullas were enraged by our effort to demystify Islam. Sometimes, I wrote articles using my real name (Jahed Ahmed), other time I used pseudonym such as Satya Sondhani (truth seeker), Ray. J. Akash.

To facilitate the communication among us, the likeminded freethinkers, we created a yahoo groups named as Voops (Voice Of the Oppressed) which also included members such as Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina & Taslima Nasrin. Voops didn't last long due to some ideological differences and the group split apart. Ali Sina's personal website at the time was known as golshan.com and the name by which his website is known now i.e. Faith Freedom Internationa (FFI) was initially proposed as Faith Freedom Foundation (FFF) by all members in Voops with an aim of creating a common platform. Avijit Roy also created a yahoo group known as Mukto-Mona (meaning, 'a freethinker' in Bangla) which was later developed into a full website. We discussed critical issues concerning Islam & other religions on a regular basis. In particular, our focus was on how to devise an effective way to rationalize Islam & Muslim societies. We all agreed with the statement that is posted in Ibn Warraq’s ISIS website under goals and missions: �…Islamic society has been held back by an unwillingness to subject its beliefs, laws and practices to critical examination, by a lack of respect for the rights of the individual, and by an unwillingness to tolerate alternative viewpoints or to engage in constructive dialogue.�

I came in contact (online) with Ibne Warraq (the founder of ISIS) through an introduction by Jamal Hasan. In August 2001, at personal level I faced a disastrous problem of academic origin. I was dismissed from graduate school. Of curse, it didn’t happen overnight. Due to my obsession with internet for days and nights my overall GPA (Grade Point Average) went below standard 3.0 and I was placed on probation during Spring 2001. However, when I was about to make up GPA and get rid of probation, some deeply involved emotional incident at a personal level shattered all my plans. It was just two days before the final test in a subject in which I was doing very well, thus brightening the chances of getting rid of probation. I shall not narrate this particular incident here, save it for a later time except for if I lied about my disbelief in God, religion on that particular occasion, I would not have needed to pay the big price I had to. Probably things would have been different and on my side. Yet I don’t have any regrets. Today I feel proud I didn’t act like an opportunist. But at that time it was really hard for me to handle everything with an even head.. Overwhelmed by stress, anger and stubbornness, I acted in an impulsive manner. I decided to skip the final test and instead requested the instructor, to put an "incomplete" instead of an "F" grade on my transcript. Unfortunately, he didn't comply with my request (he didn’t have to though) and as a result, as per the rules of graduate program, I was dismissed from the grad school with an "F" on my record. I was still living on the campus apartment when 9/11 took place. Although profoundly shocked, we were not surprised by the atrocities of Islamic fanatics. Our group issued a statement addressing the world Muslims, emphasizing the root of religious intolerance, hatred and how it is rooted in Quran and Hadeeth. Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina worked on the draft of the statement while we all gave in our inputs. Taslima Nasrin also a signatory with us. A copy of our statement could be viewed at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/2679

I left Colorado and came to Michigan by the end of September, 2001. In November (or, may be December), 2001, Ibne Warraq of ISIS invited me at a conference of ex-Muslims at the Center for Free Inquiry, Amherst, Buffalo, New York. Austin Dacey, at that time the director of the Campus Freethought Alliance, contacted me on Warraq's behalf. It was a great event in my life. I met good number of fellow freethinkers from Muslim populated countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey and Iran. Also I had an opportunity to talk face-to-face with prominent secular humanist philosopher, Prof. Paul Kurtz, many of whose writings I was already familiar with. He is the founder of CSICOP, as well as Council for Secular Humanism (CSH). I met (Dr.) Austin Dacey (now the director at the Center for Inquiry metro New York) and we became friends ever since. The conference lasted for three days. I was allowed to present my personal views through a short speech. As a strategy to secularize Islamic societies, I emphasized on reforming the education system in Muslim countries so that Muslim children will have easy access to science-backed and secular education.

My Present Views About Islam and Questions I Didn’t Answer: Reading my testimony, one would see- what I learned from Maulana as a child has had a deep impact on my mind in a later life. One might argue- Maulana was an ignorant person and his teaching was erroneous. One might say, real Islam is totally different from what Maulana taught me. However, I would certainly disagree with them for by now, I’ve read Quran and Hadeeth myself, and I do think, what Maulana taught me significantly exist in Muslims’ Holy Scripture Quran and Hadith as well. I will soon quote verses from Quran to present my stand. Before that, I need to comment on popular views about Islam, or views of what we call ‘mainstream Muslims.' I mentioned in the beginnings that in terms of their views on Islam, my mother, brothers, and sister belong to ‘mainstream Muslims.' But who are these ‘mainstream Muslims'? They are the majority of Muslim population, who take words of Quran for granted without ever realizing the need to apply any rationale. They, mistakenly, believe- Islam is all about peace (interestingly, US President George W. Bush also seems to believe so), Muhammad is the greatest human of all times; again, without ever realizing the need to scrutinize his life with a rational and impartial mind. Of course, I agree, unlike Islamic terrorists, mainstream Muslims don’t commit atrocities to others; most of them are peace-loving ordinary people who don't care much about politics. However, they are the people who blame the Islamic terrorists for their actions, but never raise any question against verses of Holy Quran and hadeeth which are supportive of extremism. Now I will give some proof of Quranic extremism.

First of all, Islam divides the world into two parts: Dar-el-Islam (Land of Muslims) and Dar-el-Harb (Land of War –where non Muslims live). I don’t know if a Hindu divides the mankind into Hindus and non-Hindus. I’m not certain, if a Christian or a Jew believes in such sectarian views. But I’m sure- Muslims do. Muslims believe, it is only Islam that can guarantee peace and prosperity for the mankind. Thus, in accordance with Quranic instruction, it is the holy duty of every pious Muslim to conquer the non-Muslim land and convert the non-Muslims into Islam. Now I will present an excerpt from our call to the world Muslims. It will show verses of Quran, which, by any standard, are inhuman, parochial and potentially dangerous:

“…Quran tells us to: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Q. 5:51), fight them "until they pay the Jizya (a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Q. 9:29). "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Q.2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (Q. 9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Q. 9:5).

Quran says that all those who disbelieve in Islam go to hell (Q. 5:10), they are najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9:28), and orders us to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q.2:193). It prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9:23), (Q. 3:28).

It says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water" (Q. 14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter" (Q. 5:34). And tells us that "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q. 22:19-22) and that they not only will have "disgrace in this life, on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)" (22:9).

Quran says that "those who invoke a God other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy" (Q. 25:68). For those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (Q. 48:13).

As for him who does not believe in Islam the Prophet says that after he dies it will be announced with a "stern command": "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Q. 69:30-37)

The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that "it is good for us even if we dislike it" (Q.2:216). Then he advises us to "strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Q.47:4). Our God has promised to "instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers" and has ordered us to "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Q.8:12). and "to strike terror into (the hearts of the enemies" (Q.8:60).

He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that "Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (Q.9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed" (Q. 9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (Q. 9:111). In Paradise he will "wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones" (Q. 56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (Q. 56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). And have sex with "boys like hidden pearls" (Q. 56:24) and "youth never altering in age like scattered pearls" (Q. 76:19)

As you see, Allah has promised all sorts of rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill the unbelievers in his name, not forgetting even those with pedophilic inclinations. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find "goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni" (Q. 56:67-71).

In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good) (Q. 3:85).

As for women, the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It advises men to take a green branch and beat their wives, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (Q. 38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal rights, it decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (Q. 2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that…….�

My Addition to the Above: How could Quran be the words of God the most benevolent, the kindest? Indeed, it's not. Muhammad was not any holy man. He married Ayesha, when she was just 6 years (had sex with her when she was 9). Isn’t it a case of child abuse? When Khadiza, Mohammed’s first wife, died, Muhammed was 49 years, and between 51st and 63rd (age he died) year of his life, he married at least 11 times! Among his wives is, Zainab, who was initially Mohammad’s adopted-son Zayed’s wife. Do these examples justify the myth, that he was the greatest of all humans and God’s true messenger?

Last Words- What's My Final Identity and Aim in Life? I was a Muslim, but I’m no more. Does it mean- I’ve no identity to live with? Of course, not. My identity, echoing the words of George Bernard Shaw, is as follows:

“I’m convinced that my life belongs to the whole community; and as long as I live, it is my privilege to do for it whatever I can, for the harder I work the more I live. I rejoice in life for its own sake. Life is no brief candle to me. It is a sort of splendid torch which I got hold for a moment, and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before turning it over to future generations.�

Like the Greek philosopher I quoted in the beginning, I’m a citizen of the world. I don’t need any divine guidance for living a responsible and a decent life. All I need- common sense, compassion and reasons. I love to dream- there would come a time in our world, when one person wouldn’t judge another person based on race, religion and ethnicity. Our first and last identity would be- humans, inhabitants of the planet earth Superiority of any particular religion or culture over another wouldn’t prevail. I’m sure, I’m not alone in having such a dream. But I will do my part of the job. Through my writings, I would like to stimulate minds of educated Muslims throughout the world. I aspire to revive the lost trends of ‘Golden Age of Islam’ (9th century to 13th century), which was marked by traditions of Muslim rationalists called Mutazillatese. Inspired by the Greek learning, and adhering to rational inquiry, Muslim world flourished remarkably in Astronomy, Medicine, Mathematics, Arts and philosophy. Some great thinkers of golden age are- astronomer Al Sufi, Al Biruni (born in 973), physician Ibne Sina (born in 981), physicist Al-Haytham (born in 965). However, this trend didn’t last. With the change of social-political phenomena, fundamentalism rose and rationalist traditions submerged in the ocean of darkness, from which the Muslim world has yet to emerge. Yet I am very optimistic, since the people who love truth, reason and freedom—however small or big in number—always existed in the human history. There is absolutely no reason to think- they are all gone by now.

misc. by KHYBER

[.....is probably just some spineless coward who uses religion to deal with his personal issues about the world. ]

You mean, like mo? Because that exactly what he did. Used carrot and stick - houris and the fear of hell to subjugate and control idiot bedouins so that he could rule his empire and have 12 wives and any number of slave girls to h..p on the side.

(The intellectual Chowk editors will try to remove this interact even though it is 100% true - because at the end of the day, they too are cult members who HAVE to their pay membership fees).


[Those so called religious Waco’s should read the Qur'an!]

They did. Better than you. And without spinning it. They read it as it is. Where it says "find the infidels wherever they are and kill them", that's what they do. They are not into substituting "love" or "gentle kindness" for "kill".


[Their violence and subjugation is so anti-Muslim. How can they not see it! And their misinterpretation of "jihad' is so off the real meaning. These people are nuts.]

Is it not true that mo killed 500 UNARMED civilians in one go and sold their women and children as slaves? These taliban are only killing one or two at a time. Obviously they have a long way to go to reach the level of mo.

Visualize 500 men being beheaded, and you will begin to understand the kind of respect we human beings (non-muslims) associate with your "prophet".


[This religious fanaticism started in Pakistan with Gen.Zia's cruel ruls,who used Islam for his power....]

Zia did EXACTLY what mo did - used Islam for power.


[now we can say that religion and state should be separate...]

That's un-Islamic. Look what mo did.

Re: # 120 Tahmed

Sahib O' Self-Righteous One:

Only you would think that the cold-blooded murder of 173 innocents and shrugging off responsibility (contrary to the lectures that you frequently give while touting Islamic values) is 'petty'.

Ciao

#118 ok, since you keep insisting: OK, OK, I admit it. We pakistanis have suffered a great loss of face suffered by pakistan in noting now rather than earlier that mumbai was planned on pakistani soil. Now can we please stop this torture, Indian-style, of harping on petty stuff to prove God knows what point!

Re: # 114 Khyber

Ahmed Rashid's book is available on Amazon.com. He has written numerous other books on Taliban, Central Asia. He had a hard time finding a publisher to publish his first book on the Taliban in the pre-9/11 days. After 9/11 he became a celebrity and Obama invited him to a pre-inauguration private dinner on foreign policy.

You can read the excerpt that I was talking about on this link at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0670019704/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader- link

Click on 'Excerpt' on the left

Re: # 109 sorry should read....."without loss of face"

Re: # 98 Tahmed to Majumdar

Sahiban:

YLH is as confused as the rest of you. Remember, he considers ANP and the Frontier Gandhi to be traitors. Indeed, the ANP form the secular opposition to Taliban in the Frontier. There was a time when an unarmed, dhoti-clad Gandhi could walk the villages of FATA and raise non-violent volunteers in support of Independence. Today, that is unthinkable. That is how far your thoughtless strategy of anything 'un-Indian' has led you to, and you never hypocritically fail to remind us to 'appreciate and absorb the strengths of other civilizations'. Go eat a crow sandwich now.

Re: # 113 Khyber

I might also add that there are several military garrisons in Swat, but they have not as much as batted an eyelid there. What would you conclude?

HERE IS A ARTICLE PUBLISHED IN THE FRONTIER POST BY ONE IGNORANT TALIBAN CLUB MEMBER.....READ IT AND SEND LETTERS TO FRONTIER POST TO CRITICIZE HIS POINT.......
The Frontier Post
Commitment to Journalism
Talking to Taliban
Abu Shahab
Nowadays, there is a frequent debate going on the media about dialogue with Taliban, and every one suggests how to deal with Taliban according to his own whim and mental inclinations. Owing to the American war on terror, the matter has been made so complex and confused that a layman is bewildered what should be the solution of all this mess. The so-called enlightened moderates do not hesitate in advising the government to crush the Taliban in the north-western region of the dear motherland. Due to the brutal use of force, nearly one million citizens have been made homeless, left at the mercy of their own fate. In all the military actions taken by the government, the victims are the innocent people mostly children and women. The death toll of the 9/11 incident does not seem to end. How many sacrifices we will have to offer to satiate the thirst and lust for blood of the cannibals in Washington? Had we created this land of Paks for this purpose - to work as a mercenary for the western powers, especially America? Those paid writers very well know the solution of this problem but for petty gains are writing for the satanic forces who are getting satisfaction in spilling the blood of human species, especially the followers of Islam. The murder of a single innocent human being is tantamount to the murder of all humanity, we have been told by Islam. But who will inculcate this ethical declaration of Islam into the heads of the agents of Satan who are bent upon accelerating the journey towards the dooms day? Otherwise a very simple solution is present for all the disturbances in our country. First, ask the Yankees to stop the so-called war on terror and pull back its forces from Afghanistan. As they themselves admit that al-Qaeda has no more the capacity to threaten the American security, the presence of the American forces are no more needed if the Yankees has no clandestine motives in the region. Peacekeeping forces of the neutral states can easily restore peace and stability of the country. Secondly, if the Yankees are adamant to keep their occupational forces in the region, as it has been planning for somewhere 2025, then our rulers should boldly get out of the war on terror and cease to act as a front line state, and stop all kinds of support to the American forces in the regions. Taliban are not against the Pakistani forces. Actually they are the custodian of the Pakistani territory. The only hope for those who believe in the ideology of Pakistan. Genuine Taliban do not behead men without reasons. What should be the reward of all those who spy Taliban for the Yankees? Perhaps they should be garlanded when detected by the Taliban! Had the business of the Yankees restricted to only peacekeeping in Afghanistan it would have been a wrong assertion to support Taliban but the designs of the Yankees are not so naïve. Themselves starving the Americans investing in Afghanistan; it cannot be simply construed just for peace keeping. Those Pakistanis who have spent a year in Afghanistan are roaming in Toyotas, definitely at the expense of Americans whose cars and houses have been snatched by their rulers fearing them of al-Qaeda and Taliban. Once the rulers of Pakistan get out of the so-called war on terror and still the Taliban are challenging the writ of the government in any form, there will be no room left for those who criticise the present policy of the government. Let the Yankees mind their business in Afghanistan - Pakistanis can no more be levied for the incident of 9/11 whose perpetrators are no more unknown.
Saved from: http://www.thefrontierpost.com/News.aspx?ncat=ar&nid=737&ad=12-02-200
D ated: Thursday,February 12, 2009, Safar Al-Muzaffar 16, 1430 A.H.

Re: # 113 Khyber

You ask, "is this army on side of Taliban???"

Answer: Absolutely! Just read Ahmed Rashid's book, 'Descent into Chaos: The failure of nation-building in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia'. In the very first paragraph of the book, Rashid narrates that six weeks before 9/11 the ISI asked Hamid Karzai to leave Pakistan or be killed like his father because Mullah Omar was finding it difficult to subdue the dominant Popalzai tribe near Kandahar. Every Pakistani military chief maintains steadfastly that the ISI is within his complete control. Go figure!

Pakistan, whose 500,000-strong military -- the fifth largest in the world -- has deployed 110,000 troops in the semi-autonomous tribal areas,its amazing that this corroupt paki army can't crush lets say 50,000 fanatics?is this army on side of Taliban???
New york times is reporting this news now,''In Pakistan, U.S. Special Envoy Finds Discontent''http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/asia/12pstan.html?ref=world. ..now pakis are asking for more money so corrupt paki army and civilian govt can steal more.

Re: # 98 Tahmed32

Jinnah's Pakistan died in 1971. Your Bengali cousins are perhaps better inheritors of his legacy. Today's (West) Pakistan is an barren country that is financially and intellectually bankrupt.

#109 you are right that the timing makes it appear that the admission is the result of holbrooke's visit. perhaps holbrooke wrestled zardari to the ground and twisted his elbows until zardari croaked. or perhaps zardari timed this announcement with hobrooke's visit and got to chat with Obama as a result. who knows.

in matters of life and death (which is what terrorism is about), such niceties dont matter. lets just be glad that the zardari government is doing the right thing.

Khyber #99: i had trouble following that link. but your point is well made. the saving grace of pakistan is that the taliban are even more stupid than the generals who created them.

through their brutalities, they have turned the local population against them within a few months of their arrival whereever they have gone.

Re: # 107 my point, this could have been done earlier with loss of face - since it was known to all and ther could have been more breathing room.

Now it reeks of succumbing to pressure from the gora-admi from DC visiting Islamabad! Nothing more than that. Where does this leave your precious civilian government!

Re: # 105 That article is scary! Reveals the state of mind!

Tahmed32 it would be instructive to read the contents....and to hear your thoughts on it!

#106 iron_mask: so whats your point?

Re: # 95 no TAhmed32, he is just saying yeah it was sort of like, partially planned here. They located the shops etc etc etc for the stuff the boat yard and all that....but that is something which was already known to the Maericans, The brits and every one else .

Re: # 97
majumder....
jinnah's pakistan was not something different...at least 1948 (tribal invastion of kashmir) incident proves that...
Jinnah as well as Mujibur wanted something different...they want non muslas to stay there and build the nation (muslas were most educationaly and culturaly backward in Pakistani states at the time of partition)...so, when muslas will acquire skill from indians, they will follow the muhammed (of 7th century arab) model...somehow most of the paki muslas were impatient to return back to to good old days of 7th century arabia.....
the golden days of islam is coming back and that is not in Medina, that is in Pakistan....


http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english -online/Opinions/Columns/06-Feb-2009/Amazing-parallelism

#101 hindu extremists are full of cow crap, of course (literally and figuratively). but still, like i said, the topic of this thread is too important for this board to be side-tracked by communal crap.

#101 what does this have to do with the topic? perhaps you should look beyond insults to other communities if you are looking for hilarity.

hamidm2#100
Chilll hamid,

This issue is just the Pakistani Army trying to an acceptable deal with the new US administration.

Regards,

Faruk

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article5707554.ec e

this is bloody hilarious:

eremy Page, Delhi
Does your Pepsi lack pep? Is your Coke not the real thing? India's Hindu nationalist movement apparently has the answer: a new soft drink made from cow urine.

The bovine brew is in the final stages of development by the Cow Protection Department of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), India's biggest and oldest Hindu nationalist group, according to the man who makes it.

Om Prakash, the head of the department, said the drink – called "gau jal", or "cow water" – in Sanskrit was undergoing laboratory tests and would be launched "very soon, maybe by the end of this year".

"Don't worry, it won't smell like urine and will be tasty too," he told The Times from his headquarters in Hardwar, one of four holy cities on the River Ganges. "Its USP will be that it's going to be very healthy. It won't be like carbonated drinks and would be devoid of any toxins."

RELATED LINKS
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The drink is the latest attempt by the RSS – which was founded in 1925 and now claims eight million members – to cleanse India of foreign influence and promote its ideology of Hindutva, or Hindu-ness.

Hindus revere cows and slaughtering them is illegal in most of India. Cow dung is traditionally used as a fuel and disinfectant in villages, while cow urine and dung are often consumed in rituals to "purify" those on the bottom rungs of the Hindu caste system.

In 2001, the RSS and its offshoots – which include the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party – began promoting cow urine as a cure for ailments ranging from liver disease to obesity and even cancer.

The movement has often been accused of using more violent methods, such as killing 67 Christians in the eastern state of Orissa last year, and assaulting women in a pub in Mangalore last month. It also has a history of targeting foreign business in India, as in 1994, when it organised a nationwide boycott of multinational consumer goods, including Pepsi and Coca Cola.

The cola brands are popular in India, now one of their biggest markets, but have struggled in recent years to shake off allegations, which they deny, that they contain dangerous levels of pesticide.

Mr Prakash said his drink, by contrast, was made mainly of cow urine, mixed with a few medicinal and ayurvedic herbs. He said it would be "cheap", but declined to give further details about its price or ingredients until it was officially launched.

He insisted, however, that it would be able to compete with the American cola brands, even with their enormous advertising budgets. "We're going to give them good competition as our drink is good for mankind," he said. "We may also think of exporting it."

......... actually there is a very simple way to solve this problem - declare war on india .......... everyone, including the taliban, will stop whatever nonsense they are involved in and get on with the business of fighting the horrible hindoos .......... even folks like zeemax and urstruly will abandon their dark and damp caves and come out in the sunshine to slaughter the real infidel ......

chalo, chalo, delhi chalo!

pakistan zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!

#98 tahmed32,I agree and you are right,well what can you expect from ignorant people,they recite Koran in Arabic but don't know the meaning of single word,thses Taliban even can't write their name,I was reading this article in frontier post of peshawar and read this idiot's article,here is the link and I would like you to write a letter to the frontir post about his article,http://thefrontierpost.com/Printer.aspx?ncat=ar&nid=737

majumdar #97 i dont see how it can be anything other than YLH's pakistan. taliban have no horsepower intellectually, politically, militarily in the the broader scheme of things within internationally or even within Pakistan.

Tahmed sahib,

pakistan will be alive and well

That is agreed of course. The question is will it be Jinnah (pbuh) and YLH's Pakistan or Gandhi and Urstruly's Pakistan?

Regards

jay thakeray: pakistan will be alive and well long after you have died of rabies.

ironmask: rehman malik confessed?? so now are the brahmins going to burn him at the stake?? what are you talking about!

Re: # 93

Hang on a bit, before passing judgement on the civilian government in Pakistan, give them some credit for carrying out this investigation, arrests and information that can only be used for eradicating this virus called terrorism.

Lets not forget that both states have very low expectations of each other and a relationship that can be described as adverserial. In an environment where extremists on both sides tried their level best to start another war we now get this news, we should be standing together condemning dastardly acts of terrorism and do the level best to help those who wish to fight these terrorists. trying to score points and search for pot holes will not help any one but the extremists

why has Rehman confessed on TV now! It has not gained anything (Political estblishment and the army).

It could have confessed this long time ago. But the usual song and dance routine was carried out.

Now white man sayeth and pakiman doyeth.

Self-respect is in the cess-pit.

Re: # 83

Zeemax

War between the 'fascist' liberals and 'extremist' militants-quote from Hamid Mir.

There are no 'liberals' in Pakistan, elitist yes but no liberal, no, no, no. It may sound good to the populist opinion but it is no where close to reality.

Extremist islam is fighting for its survival and has found fertile, receptive audience in Pakistan. State instead of taking them headon does not have the courage or mandate to tacklle this ideological terrorism thus this oscillation between war and secret deals. By mandate I do not mean the 'people'of Pakistan but the 'army' of Pakistan. Civilian Government cannot change the course of this country by confronting these barbarians because the military establishment is protecting their interests and will not allow any tinkering in their plans.

Hope all is well.

Euthenasia for nations.

There is only one way that the nightmare can end. Pakistan has to be resized, and punjab renamed pakistan.

the nwfp should go to afghanistan, a few parts to iran, pok to kashmir, and sindh another independant country with atlaf hussian as leader. Punjab to be renamed p-akistan.

For this to hppen, the isi-taliban has to br crushed between B52 and the indian troops.

The present situation is simply due to collin powell, are you with or against us option should not have been given to mushy. The taliban from afghanistan should have been daisy cuted all the way to indian border. Then this situation would not have arisen, teh taliban with teh help of pakia rmy have made their base in nwfp.

euthenatia for pakistan and resizing it is the only option for the world to get rid of the terror.

Night-vision goggles




By Ibrahim Shinwari

LANDI KOTAL, Feb 11: Nato authorities provided military gear, including night-vision goggles, to Pakistani forces at a tripartite meeting held in the Khyber tribal region on Wednesday.

Senior military officers of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nato met at a military base near Torkham and discussed a surge in militancy along the Pakistan-Afghan border and attacks on Nato supplies in tribal areas of Pakistan.

//////from dawn////////////

the yanks have been fooled again. The swat taliban are there because of paki army, the fazullah and his broadcasts are there becuase of paki army. The paki army still belive in strategic depth and that is why the taliban are given a sanctuary in swat and all other areas.

The paki army and taliban are one and the same, and slowly large sections of paki army will join taliban and attack paki cities.

That si when you can hear the laughter of jinnah, taht hsi dream of an islamic republic is coming true.

Indian official says Al Qaeda involved in attacks




By Jawed Naqvi

NEW DELHI, Feb 11: The head of India’s elite National Security Guard (NSG) that spearheaded the counter-attack in Mumbai’s terror nightmare seems to have sown confusion here by claiming on Wednesday that Al Qaeda was among the groups involved in the attacks.

“The Mumbai terror attack was an audacious attempt by the Taliban, Al Qaeda and LeT combine to shape policies of three sovereign nations that include the oldest and the largest democracy,� NSG Director General J. K. Dutt told an international seminar organised by the National Bomb Data centre.

////////from dawn//////////////

As I have been posting, classic al quida attack on westerners and jews , subcontracted to isi and kashmir jihadis.

The nightmare should continue

No pakistani dares to ask, why fazullah is allowed to have the FM broad casts. The paki army says that they do not have jamming equipment.

All that is needed is another transmitter, may be more powerful that can transmit in teh same fequency.

here in is the paki education system. there are no technically qualified people to challenge what the paki amy is telling.

Neither are they smart enough to find that the faizullah and taliban are supported by the pakia rmy, most of teh taliban are in isi pay role.

That is the simple fact and no paki will dare to say that.

Re: # 81
mike...
chemo therapy (use of bomb in pakistan) is not a permanent solution for this type cancer called islam...
sitting in USA but supporting jinnah, talibs etc... are also cancer effcted cells...

Re: # 82

Zeemax,

Good idea, pakistan devoid of islam, a secular country, poor jinnah will be doing namaz in his grave.

Further do you think tahmed, ylh, urstruly to name a few will like it.

What will happen to tnt and k for kafir education.

Re: # 82
zeena(h)...
1948 tribal invastion in Kashmir was the first instance, when Pakistan used jihad and Mr. Muhammed Ali Jinnah supervised this jihad...There is no point putting that fellow in high pedestal...


hamid...
regarding kashmir, you often talk about attacking India...
Even Mehmood of Ghajni (Afghan raider, who is National Icon for Paki youth) lost 17 times to rajputs before succeessfully conquering India( I think this part of history of 17 losses is not recorded in Paki history)...
India and Pakistan fought only 4 wars...may be 13 more you have to fight, apart from "bleeding through 1000 cuts"...then.....

Re: # 78
hamidm2...
let the afghans settled in Pakistan and India express their opinion...
the afghans, those who come to Pakistan (may be bigger in number than india) get training in islamic terrorism and attack govt. installations in Afghanistan...
Afghans migrated to india receivs decent education (not madressah type) and work as govt. employee in afghanistan...
you can verify that from any afghan officials....
as per my knowledge, Hamid Karzai and Afghan officials do not support anything Pakistani and are firm supporter of Indian assistance and intervention in Afghanistan....
India contributes most in the field of the human resource development in afghanistan....
....and you know, what for ISAF is attacking paki supporter afghans and their freinds in Pakistan....

Here is something for you...though I will like to slap that rascal....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7870643.stm

Read this column. Urstruly is right.

Islam, Revenge and Justice:
http://www.jang.net/jm/2-12-2009/images/05_05.gif

Dear writer
Quite impressive and timely article when Pakistan is at it's verge of being collapsed and taking last breaths before dying.

Now, the story behind Pakistan's death is simple.

It started when Pakistan/American armies trained Talibans and used them as dummy army in war against USSR( now only Russia).
When Talibans defeated USSR,American/Pakistani armies threw them like garbage and never looked back.

Afghanistan used to be a pretty OK country with almost established infrastructure prior to American/USSR army, they used Afghanistan as their battle ground.

Pakistanis embraced millions of Afghan immigrant with open arms and got them settled down in NWFP.

Now, Talibans got sold to al Qaida and perhaps Russia against America and once again they are using Afghanistan as their battle fields. This time tragedy is that Pakistan has become an open battle field for Arab organization ( Al Qaida and Talibans)

Talibans are dummy army for Arabs, and Arabs are fighting their fight in Pakistan , not in their own middle east.

America once again trying to get control of this region , this time by bombing Talibans and Al Qaida...

This is the war about regaining control on this unfortunate planet, called Earth. This is not a religious war, but, they are portraying it as a big religious war.

Because they knw,if, they won't use religion , they'll never be successful.
They know the weak point of Pakistani people. They're playing with their emotional via Islam.

Pakistani people don't get it, they simply don't get it.
They'll get it, when nothing'll be left except the rubbles and after war remanants of Pakistan.

Pak land is like a fertilized land for Talibans and al Qaida because of Pakistanis affiliations to religion is successful in gaining control.

Pakistanis should wake up, and en this nightmare.
This is the right time to make Pakistan a secular state and stop mixing and confusing religion with state.

Pakistan was never made as a religious state, it was meant to be a modern and progressive secular state with the freedom for religion.

And if, this won't happen now, it will engulf Pakistan and if, it will engulf Pak land , then it will be easier for Al Qaida and Talibans to engulf India....and then there won't be any ending.....

Here is one Win-Win proposal (hamidm can improve on it)


Incite Taliban to declare holy war on West (i.e. US)/ Pakistani Army/ Shias/Indians/Jews/Chinese/Ruskies with guarantee that dead will instantly get benefits of the paradise.

Use Neutron bombs (aka Capitalist’s bomb which kills people but spares property) to kill them all.

Win for Taliban – instant paradise
Win for rest of the world. – No Mullahs, no girl-school burning etc etc)

Re: # 79

majumdar mian,

........ sure.... our bengali brothers are always welcome as long as they are not biharis masquerading as bengalis ....... actually they are in great demand because of their reputation as 'good' domestic servants - sindhis are lazy, pathans are filthy, and punjabis are likely to murder you in your sleep .........

Hamid mian,

but the most popular country for afghans is still pakistan

Could you also suggest this to Bangladeshis that they shud go to Pakistan and not India for R&R.

Regards

Re: # 77

nkg mian,

i hate to burst yuour bubble, but the most popular country for afghans is still pakistan - there are perhaps 4-5 million afghans who are permanently settled there and thousands of others who move across the border on a daily basis for r&r in fata which is a popular tourist spot for jihadis, suicide bombers, smugglers and pedophiles ...... parts of major cities including rawalpindi, lahore and karachi are more afghan than paki in character .......

.......the afghans in india are simply terorists who are being trained by raw for attacks inside pakistan .........

Re: # 63
mohar....
it is not the matter of consulates alone...
when talibs ravaged afghanisthan, along with sikhs, lot of afghans had taken shelter in new delhi and different state capitals...I found one of such people at a computer training centre (it was under NIC)...
Indians will be very popular in Iraq too.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-Sstlp1u7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5KkmZVrZpk

Bulll...
Couple of years down the line, we all will know, whether USA achieved its goal or not. If Iraq establish itself as a true democracy, like many people and most muslas , Iraqis will forget the contribution from USA and UK...The cultural difference between USA,UK and Iraq was so huge, there was no way Anglo-Americans could have achieved their goal in couple of years time frame, without help from Asian countries,specialy arab countries...nobody came forward to help Iraq....Iran tried its best to see US marines bogged down in the Iraqi ethnic quagmire...
You know, what is the best outcome of this US invastion...they have wiped out entire Saddam family, which had left very little scope for creating political feudalism like Gandhis of India and Bhuttoes of Pakistan....
Couple of years down the line, Iraq will be a decent democracy. US has to be compensated enough by Iraqis....

The nightmare must go on...

ANP lawmaker killed in bomb blast

Thursday, February 12, 2009
Seven injured; NWFP govt announces three-day mourning

By Javed Aziz Khan

PESHAWAR: Awami National Party (ANP) MPA Alamzeb Khan was killed in a remote-controlled bomb blast in Momin Town here on Wednesday, becoming the first lawmaker to fall victim to the ongoing violence in the country. Nobody has claimed responsibility for the blast.

The blast, which also injured seven others, including the driver, the gunman and personal assistant of the legislator, occurred on the day the newly-appointed special US envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan, Richard Holbrooke, was paying a visit to the city and the adjacent Khyber Agency.

masadi: you wrote "The threat of random violence that seeks to absolve structural precedents and mask patterns."

taliban violence in swat is random? you hide behind your "scholarship" while the taliban behead helpless prisoners, burn girl's schools!! is reality that hard to deal with?

bulleya: so - Iraq has changed from in many ways the worst dictatorship in the arab world to the only democracy among arab countries. with the second election within a few years. and the mullah dogs kicked out of iraq.

everyone knows the incompetence of the bush administration that caused law and order to break down and mullah dogs to come to iraq. and yet, DESPITE this incompetence, the US has managed to do something unique for an arab country - achieve democracy.

so..now can we talk about you military duds who are responsible for creating this frankenstein monster - the mullah dog?

bulleya: so - Iraq has changed from in many ways the worst dictatorship in the arab world to the only democracy among arab countries. with the second election within a few years. and the mullah dogs kicked out of iraq.

everyone knows the incompetence of the bush administration that caused law and order to break down and mullah dogs to come to iraq. and yet, DESPITE this incompetence, the US has managed to do something unique for an arab country - achieve democracy.

so..now can we talk about you military duds who are responsible for creating this frankenstein monster - the mullah dog?

bulleya: so - Iraq has changed from in many ways the worst dictatorship in the arab world to the only democracy among arab countries. with the second election within a few years. and the mullah dogs kicked out of iraq.

everyone knows the incompetence of the bush administration that caused law and order to break down and mullah dogs to come to iraq. and yet, DESPITE this incompetence, the US has managed to do something unique for an arab country - achieve democracy.

so..now can we talk about you military duds who are responsible for creating this frankenstein monster - the mullah dog?

Romair,
That does it! How dare you put down Michigan! As a fellow Michigander, I agree with hamid---I can easily spin it and say the US won in Iraq. The main reason Afghanistan is so screwed up is that idiot Bush ignored it because of his Iraq folly. Well we punished him and voted for Obama. Obama was dead on..."we lost the eye on the ball".

BTW, that goddamn mullah Urstruly swore he was out of the US, let alone Michigan. Isn't there some verse in the Koran that says namak-harami is unIslamic? Well, I know LYING is unIslamic; so if he's still in Flint then he is a liar.

Re: # 33

hey hamid mian

in your sloganeering you forgot zardari.

[... zindabad!...zindabad!] Do you remember, why?

Ok, Hamid mian. I have been pondering on this question for a long time. Why are pakis from karachi to islamabad not getting together to kick those rag tag militants out of swat and fata? What is holding them back?

Re: # 55 Hamidm2

I think that you have it exactly right, but don't get me wrong - as long as your countrymen (bulleya, tahmed, masadi, urstruly et al) are divided and confused on what to do next, you guys are F'ed.

Jinnah's chickens are coming home to roost. Nehru was right after all!

The power of FM radio was never recognized to this extent before in any part of world. Maulana Fazlullah first used it to create a militant mindset and later creating one. FM radio initially gave Maulana Fazlullah popularity all around Pakistan when he was being recognized as “Maulana radio� but no one ever had the slightest idea what actually was going on. First FM radio, then the militia turning into a force with most sophisticated technology making it impossible for government to block their station, then burning of schools, then the Shariah courts. Isn’t this giving a concept of state within state? Imagine the rising vigour of these militants that now the same FM radio broadcasts the name and identities of those who would be next victims of militants the next dawn. Many innocent people have been killed in most inhuman ways for being termed as spy’s working for United States. But reality of matter is that whoever tries to resist in any manner in this area against the norms imposed by these militants is termed as an agent /spy. Figures for killing of such people are though calculated as 13 but many independent sources suggest that they are far more then this as there are many reports that identify people beheaded and hanged on trees and poles at the unfortunate ‘Grain chowk’ now identified as ‘khooni chowk’ (The bloody crossing).Where is the writ of government? Why isn’t anything being done is the questions generally raised by people after reading the bloody incidents taking place in Swat on daily basis.the growing nightmare in Swat is a capsule of the country's problems: an ineffectual and unresponsive civilian government, coupled with military and security forces that, in the view of furious residents, have willingly allowed the militants to spread terror deep into Pakistan. This bloody movement started with "Maulana radio" and his radio and should end with silencing his 500 KV FM radio! I can't believe that Pakistani Government and its allies in terror can not afford a one Mega Volt radio to silence .Why can't the Government shut down his radio and start information warfare against these ignorant, criminals of pukhtuns, thugs, religious fanatic Taliban.??? How is it possible that a killer uses a tool, the radio, a tool of civilization, for spreading his message of killers around? Obviously technology is then good when the notorious criminals are calling for support of his crimes! For how long that stupidity will be tolerated??? This Taliban "lea der" communicates by radio instead of coming out in the open to do so , but what can one expect from someone who, under all that religious bluster, is probably just some spineless coward who uses religion to deal with his personal issues about the world. Those so called religious Waco’s should read the Qur'an! Their violence and subjugation is so anti-Muslim. How can they not see it! And their misinterpretation of "jihad' is so off the real meaning. These people are nuts. This religious fanaticism started in Pakistan with Gen.Zia's cruel ruls,who used Islam for his power,now we can say that religion and state should be separate,all those stupid politicians like NAWAZ,QUAZI HUSSIAN,FAZAL REHMAN,ASKING FOR NEGOTIATIONS WITH those baster ignorant Taliban,the problem is all those who are being killed by thses ignorant mullahs are not family members of these corrupt paki politicians.Its amazing JINNAH DARNK,ATE PORK and smoked cigar but even he used islam,this religion of islam is not a religion any more but is becoming a group of fanatics who wants to imposetheir views on majority.

bulleya what did President Hussein tell Sri 10% today over the phone. Was it something like what the other guy said " you with it or what" or "get onto the program". I see the oily haired FM has changed tune today

Re: # 63 he is ignoring this comment ...he will regret it like the tshirt comment. It was an off the cuff comment. Pliss donot hold it against him

romair
[...who is the most popular group.....indians...]

I guess setting up "21 consulates" in afganland has worked out pretty well for hanoods... :)

tahmed writes "Tomorrow it could be your home..."

The threat of random violence that seeks to absolve structural precedents and mask patterns. A technique mastered by the US mainstream media and repeated verbatim by their slave tahmed. Don't try to fool a sociologist regarding moral panics

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

Re: # 60
[..america has been defeated in Irag...]


{McCain....he was defeated by a unknown black muslim!..}

....

I am sure more gems are to follow from this instrument.

Nature's marvel ... chowk's pride...
:)

hamidm mian#: ".... where did you hear that ? ..... in iraq a tyrant has been deposed and hanged, a democracy (the first in that region) has been born, murder and mayhem is way down, the "

after reading your comments, i am, totally, convinced that americans should ban all pakistani immigrants.....at the very least the state of michigan should.......the damage you and urstruly have done to the usa, may well be irrepairable......at the very least, irrepairable to michigan......

......no wonder the us auto industry is trouble.....with consultants like you around, what else could happen....if you really believe all this about iraq, then i have a few gm shares in my attic that i would like to sell to you.....

......bush bet his whole future on iraq.....if all is well, then mccain should have swept.....he was defeated by a unknown black muslim!!

.......the usa has destroyed iraq and afghanistan and has brought the whole world into a recession, in the process....and is now retreating with its tail between its legs, from iraq......

infact americans should be thankful to the iraqi resistance........had they not kicked out the usa, republicans would still be running the country.....and whatever is left of the usa finances, would be toast also.....

i suggest you worry more about your job in michigan, than iraq and pakistan.......

Re: # 58 bulleya - it was me not Tahmed32. Anyway...that aside

you say .....pakistan created this jihad, when it made its first idiotic mistake of becomning a frontline usa ally in the first afghan war.......it, then, did it again in the second one......

get your facts straight ...jihad was used by pakistan long before the Americans even knew this word existed. 1947/48 Lashkars in kashmir and the nuns, you do you remember it. Jihad was Pakistan's creation. It provided the seed of the idea and was taken on board by the Americans.

Kapitaan...saab, you forget your history PDQly like you forget what you said just a few moments ago!

tahmad #: "too late to cut out and get out....pakistan needs to go to the brink with this act. It was the mid-wife, the mother of this jihad"

...its easy saying this while sitting in the comforts of usa.....go try to spend a few days in peshawar......

......pakistan created this jihad, when it made its first idiotic mistake of becomning a frontline usa ally in the first afghan war.......it, then, did it again in the second one......

this should tell you something......

......the taliban have not been defeated, militarily, by the usa in 8 years......this war was supposed to be very quick......it has, now, gone on longer than ww II......what in the world makes you think the usa will win it now.....when even its nato allies dont think so.......

and if a superpower like usa cannot win it, then how in the world will pakistan win it, miliarily.......only a fool keeps banging his head agains the wall, expecting a different result each time.......

.....what will and is happening is that the taliban will move in deeper into pakistan.....they are already in swat....and pakistan has become sucide bomb central......there was none of this prior to the us invasion of afghanistan.......

pakistan needs to delink itself from the usa, and stop becoming the logistical supply line for this war......the taliban attacks are a military phenomenon, not an ideological one.......

once pakistan is no longer viewed as a usa ally, only then does it have enough of a chance to defeat the taliban; either militarily or politically......

.......the usa will, one day retreat from afghanistan.......and pakistan will be left holding the bag......

Re: # 55 yeah, hamidm2 it was called the white mans' burden. These days its called "civilisational burden"

bulleya, no way can you cut and run.

you are dreeaming boy. wake and smell the shte around you...it is fresh punjabi/mirpuri stuff. Pakistan doesnot have the wherewithall to clear up this stuff. admit it first.

US is the saviour.


Iraq - in a few years time ---see the place...already there are elections (f&f ones) and next ones are round the corner.

Re: # 51

captain cluless,

"americans will lose in afghanistan......much like they did in iraq"

.... where did you hear that ? ..... in iraq a tyrant has been deposed and hanged, a democracy (the first in that region) has been born, murder and mayhem is way down, the kurds are happy even though they still don't have their independence (yet), baghdad has fewer black outs than islamabad and, most importantly, al qaeda in iraq has been routed .......... and don't worry, american forces will still be there fifty years from now if necessay

........ after afghanistan, the us military must turn its attention to iran and saudi arabia ...... it is a burden america has to bear for the sake of mankind .........

tahmad #: "the US and NATO - are enemies? "

...it took you six years to admit that usa was wrong in iraq.......i am not sure how long it will take you to realize what is going on in afghanistan.....

usa vs taliban is not an either/or.....both are enemies to everyone in the area.....where the taliban go, they bring death and destruction......wherever the usa goes it does the same......

.......if you don't belive me, talk to people in kabul....i have done so......and the first thing they said was that americans are hated there......and these were college educated professional afghans......they also said taliban are hated.......

........usa is fighting and creating wars all over the world.......for no rhyme or reason.....it was after obl, and in the process has destroyed two countries - afghanistan and iraq - ....now, pakistan is being hugely affected by the spillover from afghanistan.......there would not have been any taliban in pakistan, had the usa not invaded and kept fighting in afghanistan.......

and the usa's shenanigans has taken the world into a deep recession.......

........usa has lost in afghanistan.......it needs to plan an exit strategy.....and it will have to accomodate some taliban in the afghan govt......after which afghanistan will remain unstable for a long time.......however, the rest of the region, including pakistan, will be stabilized......

it is, thus, difficult to figure out who has caused more harm to the region - taliban or usa......pakistan needs to stay away from both......had it done so, swat would be ok today.......

Re: # 51 bulleya, jai ram ji ki, sat sri akal, saab!

Please tell us why you say ".....apparently, there are two groups, which are hated in afghanistan - americans and pakistanis......and who is the most popular group.....indians......"

too late to cut out and get out....pakistan needs to go to the brink with this act. It was the mid-wife, the mother of this jihad

bulleya: the taliban will be sitting on your shoulders and you will still be parrotting "everybody hates the USA".

...just met with a group of employees working in afghanistan......they provided an interesting insight into what is going on there......

......apparently, there are two groups, which are hated in afghanistan - americans and pakistanis......and who is the most popular group.....indians......

even russians are not hated.....

.......americans seem to hated everywhere......yet they are convinced that they are saving one country after another.....anyone who tags along with the americans is hated also......which is what pakistan keeps doing......

......americans will lose in afghanistan......much like they did in iraq......at which point they will declare victory, give petreus a few more medals, and retreat......much like they did in iraq........however, i am not sure when they will realize they have lost in afghanistan.....apparently, even the recession hasn't had an impact on this.....

........in the process afghanistan and pakistan (at least nwfp) will be destroyed......pakistan, thus, needs to get out of being the usa's logistical supply line in this war......it should have done what turkey did in iraq.......otherwise, there would have been bombs going off in turkey daily......

.......after pakistan has disengaged from usa, it should offer these taliban idiots a ceasefire, with a guarantee from them, that they will go back to afghanistan, and fight there only.....if they don't agree, then pakistan should get a political consensus and declare war on them......and then fight it out like a real war........

paksitan will never get political consensus, if half of pakistan feels that taliban are actually fighting the american alliance in pakistan......

....interestingly, one of the young afghan professionals from kabul whom i met, couldn't control his smiles, when we discussed what the taliban were doing in pakistan.....his (valid) point being that the taliban were, now, doing to pakistan, what the pakistanis did, via taliban, to afghanistan earlier........

he also said he hated maulan fazl ur rahman.......

pakistan needs to build a fence around its afghan border......nothing should go in either direction.......and it needs to delink from usa.......(with the additional condition that usa must keep hamidm mian, urstruly and tahmad).....being an ally of usa in a war, is as dangerous as being at war with the usa.......

the last war won by the usa army was in wwII (not counting the abduction of noreiga in panama)......since then the us army hasn't won anything else......the usa can only fight wars with its air force........and air forces have no impact on taliban........

pakistan needs to cut its loses, otherwise it will be destroyed by suicide bombers......it needs to tell the usa and taliban to take their fight in afghanistan.......not in pakistan.......

masadi: # 34 So are you telling me that the taliban and al qaeda - who were welcomed as "muslim brothers" by the tribals, only to see their true face - are friends, and those fighting them - the US and NATO - are enemies? The reign of terror created by the taliban in Swat mean nothing to you? The pleas of Swatis (in newspapers, in eyewitness accounts) fighting for their homes and freedom from the taliban mean nothing to you?? Yesterday it was Fata. Today it is Swat. Tomorrow it could be your home. Is that when you will finally wake up to who your real enemy is??

Re: # 27
[.. Similar variants exist in Hindustan too eventhough in a lesser form..]

Kamath, if you can even dream of comparing the two then I
am dissapointed by your intellect. I wish there were such vigilante groups in Bengal and Assam. We are being overrun
by this muslim filth even within India and you are bothered about these small time hindu groups??

Jeez !!

chalye,

Sab Pakistaniyon ki taraf se -

Khalifa Hamid Gul Saheb Zindabad!!

Taliban Republic of Pakistan Zindabad!!

Re: # 40

Brother hamidm2

Kamal Ataturk Pasha had made turkish the mandatory language in all spheres of life including Mosques. Call for prayer was done in Turkish.

All of that good work is being rolled back, now Mosques in Turkey are echoing with the sound of Arabic, women in Hijab are becoming ever more prominent, prayers are becoming mandatory, secular Turkey just like good old Pakistan has tasted petro-dollars and now is headed towards Saudization.

Dear brother, biggest investor in Turkey is Saudi Arabia, just like Pakistan, if the secularists in Turkey cannot withstand this onslaught what chances do these poor Pakistanis have? very little.

I agree with u, every one and any one who can has made other arrangements or joined the party. I am hoping they serve drinks at that party.

Re: # 45 totally eco friendly here...that does not mean...heck

Loha ji,

Yeh qayaamt mat kar dena........Green is the way to your future..........

Save planet..........save Green.......especially when maulana saheb is going to watch every momeens movement carefully....

Re: # 43 laddu ji, jai ram ji ki(T)

Ram, ram, and all that

Maulana saheb will cut others throats. I have followed rf786 (arif) miah's advice and no longer hold the green parchi

Miah,

Hum to taiyyar hai Jhoote, Chappal, Auzaar, Bomb lekar ke.....

Tum apni khai manao.......

Apni gardan ko mulayam kar ke rakhana......

Maulana Saheb is going to ensure that munafiqoons are beheaded immediately

okay guys wake me up after the new multi-trillion dollar package for the Pakis have been agreed to .....(T)
#
till then this is a new set of dialogues from the lazy idle rent seeking elite who prefer swiss banks and swedish dolls

beware, horrible hindoos!

from marakesh to the phillipines the forces of the moon god are on the march as foretold in tahmed's book ..........


The editor and publisher of a top English-language Indian daily have been arrested on charges of "hurting the religious feelings" of Muslims.

The Statesman's editor Ravindra Kumar and publisher Anand Sinha were detained in Calcutta after complaints.

bismillah mian,

..... green is a good color, but i would advise you to get another passport - everyone i know who has the means to take a bath once a day has an 'exit plan' ..........

........ either that or plan on becoming a lota like me and enjoying the blessings that allah bestows on his faithful ........ think about it, it is a great lifestyle : you get to sleep with with multiple women (and boys or sheep if that kind of thing floats your boat), you don't have to shave or brush your teeth, wiping your private parts with holy stones might be a little rough but you will get used to it, you can burp after dinner and pass gas without worrying about what your women will say .......... the only downside i see is the torture that your ankles and knees have to bear five times a day ..........

maulana fazlullah zindabad!

p.s i am not a dreamer like john lennon or tahamed ... i am a realist and pretty good at reading stuff on the wall .....

Re: # 33

Brother hamidm2

If you can't beat them, join them.

Thanks but no thanks, I will take my chances with the nationalists and secularists of Sindh and Baluchistan.

Regards

Arif

Re: # 32

DD

Do I have another passport? No, Green is the only color, till now.

Re: # 34

masadi mian,

..... you scare the holy doo doo out of me! ......... please, oh please, tell me where you are 'teaching' so that i can make sure that my family and loved ones stay away from that madrassa .....

...a great feeling revealing the big picture past the BS to young students who for the first time ever discover their freedom from restricting BS spun by the elite....and I have liberated many such minds....even though the worshipers of the white man detest it

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

have a nice day and get an education,
TNITC masadi

tahmed writes "Suspicious of US/NATO (who are on your side, you stupid fools in pakistan!!) "

Pakistani's aren't as stupid as you are, they have seen and see everyday how much on their side "Nato and the US" really is. It is like a rapist telling his victim, "I am on your side", yeah...the side you can cause the most damage from. As I will telling my class today, detaching facts from their structural and institutional roots will leave you as clueless as tahmed, and detaching institutional reality from its cultural legitimation, which is the elite's ideology, and then expecting people who are the victims of that and so have consciousness to adopt your pov is ignorance of the kind that tahmed portrays...

brother bismillah mian,

..... assalaam o'alaikum .... may the blessings of the prophet (pbuh and his camel) be upon you .........

..... brother, we must all rejoice in the coming of the new dawn and the establishment of al-lah's kingdom in the promised land of pakistan ...... finally, after all these years, god's will shall be done on earth as it is done in heaven ..... jazakallah! ...... please, brother, do not be led into temptation by the infidel, the christian, the jew and the hindoo, and you will be delivered from the evil one ...........

.......... the brothers who are fighting the forces of shaitan in swat, bajaur, khyber are the true followers of the prophet (peace be upon him and his camel) and, inshallah, they will soon be marching into islamabad and kahuta ...... i saw signs of this blessed event when i visited kharian cantt on my recent visit to the promised land and saw many of our mujahids in the army sporting beards and fiddling with worry beads like true momins ..... subhanallah ! .... brother, why do you think a few thousand rag tag iman crazed momins in swat can hold off the world's fifth biggest army? ......... it is because allah mian has entered the hearts of these soldiers who will not fight those who fight in the name of allah ......... subhanallah!

...... so instead of looking for another passport, you should repent and join those who fight in the name of allah and his prophet (pbuh and his camel) .....

"Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward."

.......... brother, mend your ways and do not be misled by the muanfiqeen like our wayward sister beena (may allah have mercy on her misguided soul) ...........

verily, we are fcuked!


maulana falullah zindabad!
baitullah mehsud zindabad!
hamid gul zindabad!
imran khan zindabad!
qazi hussain zindabad!
nawaz sharif zindabad!
justice iftikhar chaudhary zindabad!
urstruly zindabad!
zeemax zindabad!
brother tahir zindabad!

Re: # 30 "If you are not already holding another passport then it is my sincere advise to get one quickly before that window is also closed."

Do you hold another one?

Beena,

Just as Ghulam Abbas predicted

Although I haven't actually read any of his work (mainly due to my knowledge of Nastaliq being almost non-existant, largely due to disuse), I truly admire the man for predicting what he did. Quite the George Orwell of Pakistan or indeed the sub-continent even.

Are translations of his work into English available?

Regards,
Shoaib

Dear Beena

I am afraid your essay titled 'The nightmare must end' misses one important aspect, its people like you and me who are living this nightmare, rest of the country is celebrating this creative destruction,

Swat is a classic example where traditional power groups have been replaced by a new group simply because there was an opportunity, a gap to fill and a much bigger vision to fulfill.

This may be the beginning of the end for the minority liberals but for the conservatives and right wing fundamentalist this is a new dawn.

If you are not already holding another passport then it is my sincere advise to get one quickly before that window is also closed.

Beena Sarwar's article and Bhatti's article are very similar in theme - one is anecdotal while the other is, perhaps for want of a better word, more rigourous.

But then both are hand wringing stuff. Both seem to want to declare the happening illegal, etc etc, but stop short of it (TAhmed32 - in his infinite wisdom has inadvenrently put his finger on it below #24) - but are scared.

Whenever, religion takes the law into its own hands - it has to be brought down and a huge stick taken to it. Unfortunately, in this case the elite, the state, nor the establishment is willing to do so - for in their minds (and in their logic) they fear to do so would be a negation of the ideal of pakistan and the TNT! These are two seperate things. TNT is there - the muslim nation is there. But these guys are thugs and need to exterminated, purged from the body politic. However, the fate of all are tied together in a gordian knot - right from the time the lashkars were used in Kashmir in the 1940s.

The knot is made by Pakistan, and it is pakistan which has to untie it - atleast Beena Sarwar has acknolwedged it (in the last paragraph of her article). The rest seem to be living in la-la land and palying the game of passing the parcel.

As Laddu says in #19

#19 Posted by laddu on February 11, 2009 3:18:56 am
Long Live Hamid Gul saheb!!

Hamid Gul for Khalifa of the Talibani State of Pakistan!!


Maybe, who knows, just maybe, he is the Messiah for Pakistan - a MAJ incarnate. The more you listen to the man, the more you feel yes, he is the man to porcess the goods to deliver them the quickest.

Re: #22: Khyber

"What is pakistani army for? Why is it so ineffective? Why cant it control a group of few thousand hardliners and mercenaries who have terrorized the whole region.'

I am surprised that you don't know the answer. For an education on the subject, read Ahmed Rashid's book, 'Descent into Chaos: The failure of nation-building in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia'. In it, you will find that six weeks before 9/11, Pakistan's ISI asked Hamid Karzai to leave Pakistan for good because his popularity with the dominant Popalzai pathan tribe near Kandahar was proving to be a difficult obstacle for the Taliban to overcome, even though the ISI/Taliban had assassinated Karzai's father a few years ago. (The killer has never been caught).

The Pakistan Army is REALLY ineffective, whether it is Kargil or FATA. It lacks basic counterinsurgency training. Most importantly, the Taliban are seen by the Army as its insurance policy for the day when NATO leaves Afghanistan. You see, Pakistan Army still has dreams of gaining 'strategic depth' in Afghanistan.


"Who is supporting and financing taliban? Why is no one talking about Saudi connection as huge amount of private saudi money is coming to support the arab millitants operating in the region. Islamic radicalism like Saudi-supported wahaabism and the taliban movement could be strongly denounced by sincere and true and educated Islamic thinkers and theologians."

The Pakistan Army/ISI is allowing the financing of the Taliban through the drug/heroin trade. You should see the growth of heroin production in Afghanistan in recent years. Little Afghanistan now produces 90% of the world's heroin! The Saudis provide funding too. Pakistan cannot stand up to its benefactor and say 'no'. After all, the Saudis provide a $1bn economic lifeline to Pakistan through oil subsidies. This is also why when a Saudi prince wants to shoot the endangered Indian Bustard in Baluchistan or Sindh, the Army bends over and asks, 'how many'?

Very timely,thoughtful, sincere and passionate writing Beena. Keep going.

This cancer of fanaticism is not special to Pakistan . Similar variants exist in Hindustan too eventhough in a lesser form. It is spreading, spreading often backed by fascist politicians. What is this world coming to!

Kamath

Re: # 22 "What kind of educational back ground do these Taliban "leaders?" have ... 6th grade or less? Too bad they are not required to at least have a bachelor's degree."

A classic superscillious attitude...the kind of thing which brought revolutions to France and Russia....does the phrase "let them eat cakes" ring any bell?

Re: # 22 Khyber forget the world...the world is ready to wash its hands of the place (it has almost). Notice most of the fighting is in Pakistan not in afgahnistan.

It is for the likes of you in Pakistan to decide whether this

(a) legit movement
(b) whether it is legit but bad and hnece crush it
(c) illegit and crush it

why ask the world to do so? Why ask others for something you are shitting in the trousers to do so in the first place.

Khyber: well said. trouble in Pakistan is that if you put the mask of islam on even a donkey, the fools will start worshipping it.

Thus, rather than seeing the taliban for what they are - bandits in the traditionally lawless areas of pakistan ("jirga system" has been a cruel joke on the locals), they are seen as some kind of "islamic warriors" and those fighting them do so in a half-hearted manner with no real support from politicians who talk about "moozakaraat" (that is like talking about "moozaakaraat" with Mughal the serial killer) as if such appeasement would pacify them!! and the popular press is equally confused by their "islamic" mask. Suspicious of US/NATO (who are on your side, you stupid fools in pakistan!!) and confused by the "islamic" mask of the bandits, the Pakistan government, press and public has allowed the Reign of Terror of the bandits to be inflicted on the Swatis and allowed this molehill of banditry to become a mountain that threatens the entire nation while detracting from urgent issues of economic progress and poverty alleviation.

Re: # 16
[...Those ignorant Taliban who even can't write their name have no right to impose their 7th century views on normal people....]

But they do... they have the right to do as they please because they "own" islam, they are the "purest of pure" muslims... they follow koran to the k, they live life as Mo pubh lived in bedouinland in 7th century... they may not be literate to be able write their own names, but then so was Mo, pubh...

their methods are horrible but they are bringing "real" islam to pakiland - so everything they do can be excused and forgiven...

Pakis have always wanted to to be pure muslims... well, purity has arrived... enjoy the bliss... LOL

The crushing, un-Islamic cruelty of this fanatical movement is felt by all, but mostly by the women and girls who are being punished, even killed, for having careers and for desiring to get an education. I remember Swat from the 80s and 90s as a peaceful place, where people were gentle and polite, the environment was pristine, and girls schools were flourishing , female literacy was actually higher than the national average. I cannot believe the brutal crimes that are being committed in this beautiful region in the name of some mis-guided concept of religion. Pakistani citizens everywhere must stand up against this terror and reject this inhumanity. Taliban got to be crushed and there is no other option. Pakistani army and security establishment has failed in making any real progress, despite all claims that army operation has been undertaken to control the situation. What is pakistani army for? Why is it so ineffective? Why cant it control a group of few thousand hardliners and mercenaries who have terrorized the whole region. People are being misled and great efforts are being made in pakistani media to portray all this as the price of supporting the American war on terror. The civilian government, led by nationalist party, in the Frontier province has been made totally ineffective as elected representatives fear for their lives. Who is supporting and financing taliban? Why is no one talking about Saudi connection as huge amount of private saudi money is coming to support the arab millitants operating in the region. Islamic radicalism like Saudi-supported wahaabism and the taliban movement could be strongly denounced by sincere and true and educated Islamic thinkers and theologians. Governing by fear and destruction is a direct path back into the dark ages. What kind of educational back ground do these Taliban "leaders?" have ... 6th grade or less? Too bad they are not required to at least have a bachelor's degree.

ISI brought out this jinnee from the bottle. World and Pakistan government should ask ISI to go to Swat and face this terrible music. Pretty faces of women activists appearing on Paki TV to " defend" their rights, have a lot to defend, before Taliban reaches their cozy homes in Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi. Pak armed forces keep warning India about giving befitting reply in case of a conflict ,they too should feel ashamed that they are unable to rein in these mercenaries.