Taliban Cloud Moves to Pakistan

#479 Posted by bittersweetmojo

"Don't envy Muhammad ever. Otherwise how will you portray yourself as a Chankiya-follower?
Good for you. :)"

C'mon dude, you are trying to tickle me?

Ok, if you insist, Here is a small token.

Chanakya was a very learned genius. He dealt with all the Magadh Kings of those days and saw through the complete security and adminstration for Chandragupta. I am sure same can not be said about Muhammed. His followers were mostly brainless who completely believed him thinking that what he spoke to them came direct from God. That way it is not necessary to envy him.

Having said this, I must tell you about the discourse of Swamy Chinmayananda which I was lucky to hear. Jesus, Krishna and Muhammed were three greatest administrators who could hold their followers spell bound through ages.

#478
LOL.

Don't envy Muhammad ever. Otherwise how will you portray yourself as a Chankiya-follower?
Good for you. :)

laters.
-E

#477 Posted by bittersweetmojo

"I am pretty happy right now,"

Kyon mian, koyee khush khabar? (mubarak ho in advance)

"tum jantey hi ho k tumhara hashar kiya hona tha! "

Jaan bachi lakhon paye. Thanks for 'baksh'ing me. I am sstill shhivering iin ppppant. Thank you.

By the way, I don't envy your Muhammed.

#474
nem,
Yes, I know Chankiya. Been on my love-list, y'know! I have always admired political genuises. He was one of them. But Muhammad was greatest of all among them, that's my opinion. :)

Anyway.
For now, I offer you peace.
I am pretty happy right now, otherwise ... tum jantey hi ho k tumhara hashar kiya hona tha! :)

Cheers.
-E

#443 Posted by pinku

"phir kaha raha hoon, english tak baat theek hai, par dimaag ka jyada istemall mat kiya kar.... varna revealed se bharosa ooth jayega tera..."

You have hit the nail on the head! If they start reading their scripture with an analytical mind, I am afraid, this is bound to happen

#439 Posted by Urstruly

" If in pre-historic times Hindustan was a great culture, then how come none of the religious nuts we come accross knows the basic ettiquets to behave and conduct a civilized discourse in the group of their peers"

Kharbooj ko dekh ke kharbooj rang pakadta hai. It is all sangat ka asar. After all, what you marvel about the 1000 year rule of the invaders must have left a lot of dirty Chhap on the indian minds.

#433 Posted by bittersweetmojo

"What happened to your sense of being self-fed, self-confidence? I thought you had better than that, believe me! Alas! I am disappointed by the over one-billion slumdogs. chc chc!"

A democratic country is of the people, for the people and by the people. Everyone has a set of responsibility alongwith the fundamental rights here. You marry four times and produce 24 children and then expect the government to feed them all?

"one of your commanders was making statements of marching over dead arses of Pakistanis."

He was talking about the prowess of the Indian military. Not threatening to do it. We are peace-loving people and believe in "Prani-daya" i.e. compassion towards living beings. Why should we waste our army on country which has already brought upon itself the internecine bravado? Just wait for them to finish their project. Chanakya was an Indian hindu. Do you know that?

Re: # 405
hamidm2...
ha ha ha....
that arabic practice (namaz) of showing a** to moon god and shout in arabic, is one of the five pillers of muslaism/islam...and you "special" musla want to remove that piller from paki/musla life...

Tahir execute him.....this punju joker is real enemy of islam.....

Re: # 428
bsm...
Sign of your bravery....
Kashmir is still with India...even Pakistan trying conventional and islamic method (Jihad) of warfare for loast 60 years...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1735912.stm

Re: # 470

masadi mian,

... calm down! .... it is just another religious book of dubious source ..... do you really believe that it was dictated by a winged creature to an illeterate man in a dark and damp cave? .... c'mon, you are not that stupid! ..... in any case, a lot of people believe that it was edited by a goat and charlatans like omar and osman .....

.... and by the way, how can a book have 'morality'? ... it is an inanimate object that can be used to prop up a table or swat a fly, but moral it is not ......

#469, Hamid you miserable ____e , leave the Quran out of it and writing posts based on hypothetical, sifted through your bigotry does nothing to prove your point. That book you deride has morality higher than anything you or your masters could ever devise, even in the present "human rights" propaganda stage of human history that has seen worse atrocities based on race, gender and class than at any time in previous human history. If there has been one civilizing force in the form of a written document, in the history of this godforsaken world, it is the Quran, period, and, it is not a "religious" document as the dimwitted bigots of all religious labels and shades understand "religion".

Have a nice day and get an education,
TNITC masadi

Re: # 467

bismillah mian,

.... religious nutcases like urstruly thrive on chaos and that is why he wants to create this rift between the people of karachi and 'sons of the soil' ..... these people will kill their own mother so that they can stand on her body and get to the koran in order to kiss the holy book - the same book that urchin threw into the toilet ......... urchin might be on to smoething .........

Re: # 460

"I must have passed over his posts, they are worthless which post are you referring to?"

Considering how deligently you read and then reply to your fan-mail, to miss the biggest 'lid' (dung) that ChowQ and its poodles have unloaded on decent readers so far, is very strange indeed.

Please sign in at my latest I-log.

Re: # 416

Urstruly

Good, thought provoking post but suffers from some basic flaws.

Beneficiaries of foreign aid were not just the elites, list is long and endless but at the top is your beloved religious leadership. Every setup in Pakistan has cozied up the religious lobby and the religious lobby has reciprocated by attesting to their loyalty. The same applies to foreign aid and serving Uncle Sam, ask JI why was US Govt funding their activities in the sixties simply because they shared a common enemy, communism. Enter the Afghan fighters followed by Taliban funded, trained and conceptualized by American money and expertise. So where are these pure, clean people you keep talking about? Its easy talking about utopian values and defecate everything else whereas reality is very different.

The guillotines mentioned by you have nothing to do with Islam or political Islam, these are thugs and criminals with guns imposing their barbaric way over others and mind you with the blessing of the same elites you so lovingly disparage. The same history you like to refer also tells us how Muslim civilizations in different eras have rejected extremist values and always preferred moderation. Azraqites or Al Qaeda they have all been rejected and defeated, same will happen with these thugs pretending to be Islamic warriors.

And you never spare the chance to show your racist bigotry by always referring Musharraf as MuTarraf, for all his mistakes and imperfections he was and remains part of the same system you hate so much, the same club whose membership includes Hameed Gul, Zia, Yahya, Ayub and now Kiyani but then they are all sons of the soil and can be forgiven, such is your ideology. In defiance of this sense of superiority the Bengali had no choice but resort to violence and eventual separation, we see similar patterns in Baluchistan, Sindh the smaller provinces, do not be deluded by these acts of violence, people of Sindh and Baluchistan have a very different view of what is being super imposed, the sooner understood and respected the better or history has a strange way of repeating itself.

Pew writes "The Shariat Bill was being passed by a popularly elected civil government (Nawaz Sharif). It cannot be argued that these did not have the will of the majority."

The "will of the majority" has nothing to do with the democracy game being enacted in the West or its cruder version going on in Pakistan where manufactured events sway the populace while their so-called reps answer more to corporate/Army/US interests than anything the public wants- if it was the "will of the majority"- you fool- then everyone in Pakistan and the US would have health care, nutrition and education.....duly elected my a$$, elected through Army manipulation under the shadow of the Army gun, with US micromanaging.....

TNITC masadi.....

Later folks,

TNITC masadi

Urstruly writes "If in pre-historic times Hindustan was a great culture, then how come none of the religious nuts we come accross knows the basic ettiquets to behave"

Truly sahib, do a spell check first and then note that your point is extremely weak and can be made regarding any group. Further your sample is biased, based on selective observation and ignores the long history between the preceived civilization, the period of incivility of the British and the end result....

In other words, get an education, and refrain from childishly looking at everything through your value system or the morality you consider to be "natural", otherwise you'll remain an ignoramus and quite un-Islamic I should add...

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

Hamid writes "it seems that some good has come out of the time masadi, urstruly and zeemax have spent in the civilized world.."

Yes my time in Pakistan before going to the US helped me deal with the barbarism of an inhumanity and impersonality of a bureaucratized society, that is plastic through and through. Had I not spent time in the "civilized" Pakistan, I would have lost all hope in humanity....

TNITC masadi

tahmed writes "What masadi means by Freedom of Speech..."

How would you know what I mean by freedom of speech? I sure as hell don't mean that the corporations can reach tens of millions and sway entire populations by the BS while the common joe gets to reach 10 or 12- that is no freedom of speech, the kind that is practiced by your beloved masters. On the other hand arguiing with points against your opponent and being banned for that by the miserable chowk staff is a clear violation of that "freedom", and your desire to get me banned by terming that "putting down others" is similar BS and censorship.

Now take a hike,

TNITC masadi

Anil writes "Poverty is all over to be lived, have you ever tried to work in those slums with slum dog"

Anil mian learn some English, this Hindlish just doesn't make any goddamned sense. Poverty cannot be dealt with through private solutions, by working in the slums when you leave the slum producing factory in tact. Those that commandeer the machinery that produces slums, your "entrepreneurs" are the "dogs" in the equation.

I told you to keep away from my posts, now look what a damn fool you have made of yourself again...


TNITC masadi

Tahir writes "I'm disappointed that Asadi, Truly and you have NOT condemned Urchin-48's mischief, whereas other good men did."

I must have passed over his posts, they are worthless which post are you referring to?

Re: # 435

rabiawasti

For sake of argument lets assume the writer is correct in his analysis, state of Pakistan is giving these people official recognition so they can become part of the system and be neutralized, then we also have to accept the reality that those who monopolize violence can veto the ballot results, which again justifies military operations may that be against insurgents or elected people. Using the same standard, American and NATO use of violence is justified. Where does it end, there s no end to this cycle of violence.I agree with u, this article has malafide interest.

Re: # 457 Tahmed

As I have admitted - I used the wrong words. It was a mistake, not trying to be 'overclever'. Now that we have this behind us (hopefully), I don't think that you have addressed Dost Mittar's comments adequately.

For one, when you ask Dost to, 'practice in Hinduism or Sikhism what you preach for Muslims to do. Namely, define religion based on the views/actions of the most uneducated and criminal elements in society' is not really a fair comparison. Why?

Because whatever ills are ascribed (rightly or wrongly) to Hinduism are outlawed in India (sati, caste discrimination, etc). This is not to say that this does not still happen - it does. But it does so illegally and without sanction from the will of the majority. I am not aware of any similar 'ills' stemming from Sikhism. This is in CONTRAST to the legal sanction given to the Objectives Resolution, Sharia Courts, and now strict Taliban rule in Swat. The key difference is of official sanction. And before you say that these were passed by 'mullahs, thugs, generals, etc.' bear in mind that the Objectives Resolution was passed by a duly elected and legitimate Constituent Assembly. The strict Islamist law being brought into force is under the name of an elected President. The Shariat Bill was being passed by a popularly elected civil government (Nawaz Sharif). It cannot be argued that these did not have the will of the majority.
Ciao.

#456 no you didnt. but that is not what i said in my first sentence below that responded directly to your question, and which you ignored. please dont try to be overclever...very bad habit.

Re: # 454 Tahmed

"...exchange of insults and belittling..."

Did I insult or belittle you by pointing out seeming contradictions or seeking clarifications? If so, it speaks more about you than it does about me.

hamidm #450 What masadi means by Freedom of Speech, like most childish posters on chowk, is Freedom of Speech by Masadi. His use of ridicule and putdowns for anyone who similarly exercises his freedom is clearly designed to curb others' freedom.

What you say about Urstruly is more accurate (to his credit, despite his unfortunate inclination towards the adoration of the terrorist mullahs), although even in his case he can resort once in a while to the "mullah defense" of declaring those of the opposing viewpoint to be mirzais.

#453 By no reasonable stretch can what I wrote in #436 about the objectives resolution be considered an "apology" for it. If you wish to have a serious discussion on anything (as opposed to trivial persuits of exchange of insults and belittling), please make an effort to stay within the bounds of reason rather than trying to put me on the defensive on everything I write. Thanks.

Re: # 452 Tahmed

Sahib:
I chose the wrong words. I should have written, 'As long as apologists like you for the Objectives Resolution....'

The reason that I use word 'apologist' is because you appear to be defending the Objectives Resolution in #436 when you state, "You refer to the objectives resolution (yes, surprise, pakistan was formed as a separate nation for muslims in the subcontinent!!)"

Was that your intent?

What does Kashmir have to do with this? (You don't have to answer it because the answer is obvious. I ask this only to address one issue at a time).

#448 "apologize"?? where do you see me apologizing for the fact the objectives resolution? why do you think any pakistani owes indians any apology for anything?? for calling the bogus claims on kashmir and the shameless indian attempts at holding on to a people who are even more antagonized than ever towards india after 60 years of indian occupation??

Re: # 449

urchin,

... plese do - it will help us moslems get over our sissy phobias .....

Re: # 447

tahir mian,

.... it seems that some good has come out of the time masadi, urstruly and zeemax have spent in the civilized world - they seem to understand that freedom of speech is more sacred than a spurious work of bad fiction ..........

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Re: # 436 Tahmed32

"...You refer to the objectives resolution (yes, surprise, pakistan was formed as a separate nation for muslims in the subcontinent!!)..."

This confirms suspicions in my mind that 'Pakistan ka matlab kya? La illaha illallah!'.

And as long as you continue to apologize for things like the Objectives Resolution, I do not think that your country will EVER emerge from the morass it is in.

Re: # 446
Mr. Zee,

I'm disappointed that Asadi, Truly and you have NOT condemned Urchin-48's mischief, whereas other good men did.

Have you been seeing it all without feeling anything?

Urstruly,

I congratulate you on the great post #416.

Re: # 439
"something doesn't make sense"

Truly,
What doesn't make sense to me is that you haven't come out to condemn what Urchin did at this website! Don't tell me you were in an 'atikaaf'?

#443 Posted by pinku on February

aur jo koi mere post ko red flag karega, vo apne allaha ko yaad kar lena ek baar, kyonki meri saari baatain roj sapnon main aayengi!.... aur bohot kaffir-giri hai unmain, bohot dard hoga, kafir ban jayega us dard se..

#439 Posted by Urstruly on
re trooly bhai, itna dimaag mat lagaya kar, kaffir ban jayega... baar baar pitne main maja aata hai kya??? phir vahi schopenhauer aur uske chaha/tau ki batain bataoon???.... bhai na to tu, na tere aur bak chowki/paki bhai itne shareef hain ki vo Islam ko dhang se defend kar paate par na karte... unhain pata hai ki Islam main kitna bada hole hai, aur oosne aadmiyon ko kis type ke hole main fit kiya hua hai... a-hole, or a-grade hole:-)


[[
....perpetually pissed and humorless....
basic ettiquets to behave and conduct a civilized discourse
]]
kitna humour chahiye tere ko, sahi se bata, aur civilization?, ettiquets? ye sab kahan seekha tune?? english medium school main??? hamidm ke humour se tera kaam nahin chal raha??? aur kitna chahiye.... civilization to pakistan ki hai, ya phir taliban ki, perpetually "liberate" karte rahenge addmiyon ko bombs aur ak-47 se:-)

pahele mythology bol raha hai aur phir believe karne ki baat kar raha hai, abey myhtology believe karne na karne ki cheej hoti hai kya???

tu unhi logon main se hai kya jinksi "revealed" books aur man-made books alag-alag hoti hain???

phir kaha raha hoon, english tak baat theek hai, par dimaag ka jyada istemall mat kiya kar.... varna revealed se bharosa ooth jayega tera...

In this new era of AfPak, the traffic needs to become 50% Afghani and rest baki ones.

Atleast this Indian American will stop visiting this site. I am sorry if I hurt some one on this site.

Good Bye!

Was that funny and humorous enough?

Bakiland caused on average 50 innocent Indian deaths per month since May 1978 till Dec 2008. First Punjab then Kashmir then all over India. Granted you are tool in some one else hand but you chose that path because of your inbred hatred of civilizational India. Jis Thali Main Khate Ho Usime Hagate Ho. Sorry, that was not harsh but atleast I am not cutting some innocent one's jugullar.

An interesting funny letter from here,
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4689&start=1480

Marshal Shahzad,
Pakistan, literal meaning, 'The land of pure' was founded by a whiskey guzzling, pork eating Khoja, who was desperate to rule Bharat Varsha. Once, he realised that Dhotiwala, baniyas and kangress will not let it happen, he discovered Islam. Even he did not believe that he got it in his life time. Pakistan, more than anything else was a token of british appreciation for the Muslim league support for Britain during the world war 2. I sometimes wonder how would have the situation in case Kangress supported british war efforts and not started quit India movement? Still Goras may have found another reason to keep this part of Bharat under them, It has all the reasons in 'The great game' theories of Caroe and to cut a long story short the Goras ensured that India's access to central asia is cut off by encouraging newly formed paki army to mount raids in kashmir in 1948 under the garb of tribal raids. The head of Paki army was general cawthorne. Indian army was in the process of removing british officers when this happened still there were sizeable numebr of them in IA too. Cawthorne thru his compatriots in Indian army slowed down india's response to this attack and thus the matter went into UN and our progress was halted somehow at current LOC.
In the end , I somehow feel confused regarding the motives of Jinnah.He got Pakistan so that Indian muslims can go there and live and not to forget continue to become more and more islamic.
I see nothing wrong in Shariat imposition in swat and I may be one of the few Indians who agree with your view point. Pakistan is a muslim country and they want to be seen closer to Arabs( Shariat were Tribal Arab customs much before Islam came in and they continued as Mohammed realised that religion and customs are two different things and he was an intelligent man) . The whole Naziriya-e-pakistan rested on , " Not Indian". I have read a lot of Pakistani text books and also continue to read newspapers columns published there and surprised at the voices of confusion still looking for pakistan's existence . I have always seen paki attempts to de-hyphenate Indian values, customs and thought process and unislamic and non paki. Why is this hue and cry against this de-hyphenation by Americans now.
There is nothing wrong with Afghanistan. They are your neighbours, Pakis have Roti- Beti relationships with Afghans and to top it , They are very islamic. You must be proud of this achievement that finally you have been able to get rid of the tag of "Like Indians". Finally Indian Muslims are also coming to the view that they are not like you. We have no problems with Afghans. We think pathans have always been India's friends. One of our president have been Pathan.
That is another matter that the area currently called pakistan consists of muslims who were former Hindus/Budhists and converted due to fear of sword. Thats why the arabs call them Dhimmis.
That cowardice is still continuing in the capitulation of Paki army and general mass - 1965 khem karan loss, 1971- 90000 POW with India fully armed surrendered, 1999 NLI wiped off . That are good at only terrorizing bunch of unarmed civilians, razing homes by artillery shells, Heli gunships etc from 30 km's away. Don't have the balls to face terrorists face to face on ground like Indian army does with boots on ground in Kashmir and North east.
The ancestoral habbit of surrender goes on. Talibanis are demanding something that has been the founding principal of pakistan. They should continue killing people till rest become as islamic as they are.
I want to thank Jinnah for creating this nation so that his followers can continue to kill each other for not being islamic enough. Believe me, We don't want even an inch from you except northern ares of kashmir(rightfully ours) and not even one Pakistani soul on our lands. May you all rest in peace.

Regards

Chandrabhan

Chicago

Re: # 438

Yeah. But something doesn't make sense. If we accept the mythology that - in pre-historic times Hindustan was a great civilization - to be true, then how do you explain the fact that every Hindu religious nut - the self-proclaimed inheritor of that great civilization - that we come across always appears to be perpetually pissed and humorless. If in pre-historic times Hindustan was a great culture, then how come none of the religious nuts we come accross knows the basic ettiquets to behave and conduct a civilized discourse in the group of their peers. You people are always cussing, finding faults with others, and always appear to be extremly angry all the time. Something is not right; I think you people have serious self-esteem issues, and reason being that you have problems beleiving your own myths.

"This seems to be quite futile...however all historians, Hindu as well as others credit Sher Shah with all those great administration skills and giving out exemplery justice to one and all...as well as being the first to incorporate Rupee into financial transactions instead of the previously used tanka...and fantastic postal system...open your eyes...don't bring in worshippers of Kali Maa into everything...one has to call a spade a spade sometimes"

Hindu historians are JNU products like Romilas. Suri brought back what was previously working before Turk and other Islamics hoardes arrived. Poorbia = Bihar and Bengal.
Suri got only 5 years to rule that too a narow strip along GT as I mentioned before. Problem with histories is that it's not history of people but his stories concocted by darabari gandus.

what you are saying is like

Al Gore invented Internet.

Folks of May Flower invented American corn.

Saddam possessed WMDs.

Kashmiri Jihadis captured kargil heights.

Bakiland won all the wars against dark, short and coward Hindu's land.

Ajmal Kasab is actually Harminder Singh.

What else, I forgot one more

Old grannies and little kids did satee in their train compartment at Godhra because some darbari gandu Justice Bannerji says (so that Lalu rewards him and and poor innocent Abdul casts his votes to this Lalu gandu).

Am I missing something?

Proof is in the taste of the pooding. Look around. Without external financial help how India progressed in most of the areas esp. science & technology. Have you heard about ArthShastra, have you heard of republics and democracies of Gautama Buddha's time? How would you if you know only destruction and loot. Doosron kI loot can last only one generation.

tahmed32#436:

As you wish, sir!

Khild ko janoon kahe janoon ko khild
Jo chaahe aapka krishma-e-husn saaz kare! :)

dost mittar: i think we are going in circles now. You refer to the objectives resolution (yes, surprise, pakistan was formed as a separate nation for muslims in the subcontinent!!), and end up repeating your claim that "sharia" or "islam" means taliban rule (beheadings, beatings, burnings).

Like i said at the beginning, when you brought this up (and which you ignored) - why dont you practice in hinduism or sikhism what you preach for muslims to do. Namely, define religion based on the views/actions of the most uneducated and criminal elements in society??

If you dont conveniently skip such inconvenient points I raise, and if you dont conveniently make up "facts" to suit your conclusions (about election results in Pakistan), perhaps we could actually have an intelligent discussion.

Last post on this subjec. Thanks at least for your gentlemanlike conduct, albeit while wasting your time and my time as explained above.

#408
rf786
"This is all by design, these people have a vision and are disciplined enough to make deals whenever required and yet maintain their primary goals."
exactly. And the amazing thing is that we still have clueless idiots in the west like the author of this article:

http://tinyurl.com/cnly2y

who actually can say something like this:

"The strategy to agree to a peace deal between Sufi Muhammad of the TNSM is a markedly different one from the drone approach, and is based on a calculated gamble which posits that if the Taliban are handed control of the area, the consequent repression they will impose on the people will automatically turn public opinion against them.

In other words, if the anti-state force, one that has ruthlessly been destroying schools, ravaging the economy and attacking state installations, is itself made the state, then its power to subvert the state is automatically neutralised. Thus the decision to impose sharia thus has little to do with the substantive issue of Islamic law and more to do with the strategic interests of the Pakistani state in fighting an anti-state actor that uses a religious platform to foment support."

-----------------
if we weren't so screwed, articles like this would be hilarious.

Hamidm

You've ignored my repeated requests to address the points that I raised. Are you being evasive? If so, then that raises doubts about your credibility and rationality. Ciao.

#430

Aww! Nem, so sad. A few posts below, one of your commanders was making statements of marching over dead arses of Pakistanis. What happened to your Incredible sense of becoming regional power now, love?

Wasn't your India INCREDIBLE during last polls? Isn't it Shining anymore? Or what?

I mean, just look at yourself, man. Just look!

You can't even provide toilet facility for a population twice of Pakistan's in your slums, darling... and you talk of running over our corpses? Amazing, isn't it?

"Allah may be giving risq to holy pakis but why will he think of pagans?"

Oh my my! Allah doesn't provide anything to pagans, right? You sound like one nutty child who compliaints all the time. What happened to your sense of being self-fed, self-confidence? I thought you had better than that, believe me! Alas! I am disappointed by the over one-billion slumdogs. chc chc!

Hey you know, I watched this brilliant movie called Slumdog Millionaire made by an eccentric director. It has an understated message, i.e: "even if you are in slums, you can become a millionaire in India. But one one condition: YOU GOTTA DIVE IN S**T first." What fun! This message too is being depicted by a foriegner. Koi self-respect hai tum logon main k nahi?


-E

"Taliban Cloud Moves to Pakistan"

Apt title. The faithful in the land of the pure. The chicken have matured and returned to roost. The 'Dirty Kafir Club' is expanding.

tahmed32:


Further to my #429, if it makes you feel any better, many Hindus would also prefer sharia-lite, such as quick justice and harsh punishments for crimes compared to the lawlessness that prevails in India today.

Throughout muslim rule in India, the hindus never had a problem with most of the sharia laws, only against forced conversions and those laws that discriminated such as jaziya. And Punjabi hindus of previous generations would also have insisted on girls wearing dupatta in public and even not going out without accompanied by a male relative.

#428 Posted by bittersweetmojo

"Yaar, you guys can't even provide basic necessities to your slumdogs, and here you talk like a General Alexander. Get real, man!"

Yaar, it is not just possible. Each slumdog is bent upon procreating day in and day out in order to create Allah's army. How many of them can you feed? Allah may be giving risq to holy pakis but why will he think of pagans?

tahmed32:

Thank you Prof Ahmed for the failing grade.

No, I wasn't aware of Fazloo's participation but had read that the MMA had boycotted the election. Let me know if I was wrong. Since you talk about the BJP and India, it would be like the BJP boycotting the election but Ram Sena contesting and winning a seat somewhere.

Please tell me whether it was Zia or the elected govt. which introduced the Objectives Resolution? Was it Zia or the elected representatives that wrote the preamble to the Pakistani constitution (thanks pew for producing it here)? Was it Zia or the "man with the massive mandate" who wanted to become Amir-ul-Momineen?

My understanding of the meaning of Sharia is different: it is the path, a variation of the word "Shahrah", like Sharah-e-aam. It is not any state law but the laws enacted in accordance with the Quran and the Sunnah. For example, under state laws, you can ban polygamy but not under sharia.

And no, I am not a supporter of the taleban. I certainly wouldn't like to live in a place where my daughters cannot go to school or I cannot shave my beard. But Pakistanis have every right to be governed by sharia if they so want, it is none of my business as an outsider to tell them what kind of government they want.

BTW, both you and hamidm misread Shankar's post. He did not agree with the "urchin" arjun but with Jay.

Re: # 397

Krishna,

"India is fully capable of erasing Pakiland AND Afganistan off the face of the map."

Oh really? How so?
btw, when was the last time your mama gave you toxic to keep your senses right?

"If we wanted, with our 1 billion+ people, we could just keep marching and eradicating all that came in our way."

Your slumdogs never had a pair of legs which could have the strenght of marching an inch, my boy! They are stuck in their dumb poor life, under the banner of Shining India.

Krishna, you sound like those Hindi movies, in which Sunny Deol says: "If we Indians pee together, Pakistan will be over like a sinking ship."

Yaar, you guys can't even provide basic necessities to your slumdogs, and here you talk like a General Alexander. Get real, man!
-E

lol @ masadi
-E

You must have read earlier and distorted what I wrote about Swat. It is a Pakistani experiment to create divisions among talibanists. Nato and America are no longer knocking at the door, they are inside, and would only leave when a Chaotic Buffer has been created with infighting among tribes.

Please learn something, there is a lot to learn outside the sewer, even for sewer pipe inspector.

You threaten me to keep away from "your posts", but you cannot resist yourself from my post. You are so elite in your thinking, that you have stripped yourself of dignity of labor. Please get real talk, and don't deflect the issue, O' fake champion. Poverty is all over to be lived, have you ever tried to work in those slums with slum dog. I have. Please keep your "updesh" (preaching) to yourself.

Masadi sahib:

One great leap of faith in yourself, you certainly make with the artcile that shows Kashmir is not the highest priority. Something else inside Pakistan is more important, even more than what is going on at its western border. Do you know what is it?

Sooner or later two sides will come out, and knowing your hatred of American, and penchant to quote American press, you would choose the different side.

Anil, keep away from my posts unless you want to be further humiliated through your lack of comprehension of what is going on in the world, as is the hallmark of all HBS graduates....

TNITC masadi

Anil writes "Hamidm sahib:

Have you seen the 14 minute documentary on Swat Valley in today's New York Times web-site?

So that is what you want to do to "my" Kashmir Valley, "my" Kashmiri people also?"

I am sure Hamid sahib does not want to do to them what is being done to the millions strong homeless folk in Bombay and the lack of sanitation, railroad squatters. Swat is a U.S. experiment in social reconstruction using the Pakistan Army generals, not Pakistan's doing, because those generals do not represent Pakistan.

What kind of pathetic argument was this, jamadar?

TNITC masadi

Have a nice day and know that with every manipulation those sobs create openings for change and they will fail and so will tahmed.....

TNITC masadi

Here is the context of U.S. terrorism first in Pakistan and then in Bombay, fits in perfectly with my claim that the U.S. turned against their peon Musharraf because he was trying to be too independent, and as they did so did tahmed, and the entire Judges fiasco was created by the U.S. using the Pakistan Army

Secret India-Pakistan Talks Cited
Journalist's Account Says Three-Year Kashmir Initiative Failed

By Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 22, 2009; Page A13

India and Pakistan engaged in nearly three years of secret, high-level talks that narrowly missed achieving a historic breakthrough in the countries' decades-old conflict over Kashmir, according to an account set for publication today.

The negotiations, which began in 2004, produced the outlines of an accord that would have allowed a gradual demilitarization of the disputed Himalayan province, a flash point in relations between the rivals since 1947. The effort stalled in 2007, and the prospects for a settlement were further undermined by deadly terrorist attacks on Mumbai in November, the report said.

The peace initiative is described in an article by investigative journalist Steve Coll, who writes in New Yorker magazine that the two sides had "come to semicolons" in their negotiations when the effort lost steam.

The attempt ultimately failed, not because of substantive differences, Coll writes, but because declining political fortunes left Pakistan's then-president, Pervez Musharraf, without the clout he needed to sell the agreement at home. Although Musharraf fought for the deal -- as did Indian leader Manmohan Singh -- he became so weakened politically that he "couldn't sell himself," let alone a surprise peace deal with Pakistan's longtime rival, Coll says, quoting senior Pakistani and Indian officials. Musharraf resigned as president in August.

urstruly: the "social elites" of Pakistan got rid of musharraf. while lota mullahs on the one hand were eating the crumbs from his table. and while your terrorist mullahs were growing roots in pakistan under his patronage. and the mqm thugs were killing these "social elites" in order to keep their ethnic bhayya in place. but dont let me spoil your rants with mere facts.

bhairav the less-stupid-than-us-stupid-pakis: you forget one minor thing - indian bengalis!! aapnee kaimon aaschay?? bhallow??!!

Continuing from # 400

Indians are right behind Pakistan in stupidity. While trying to help East Pakistan secede from West Pakistan, it let millions of Muslim Bengalis into India especially West Bengal and Assam and some into Bihar. Now border districts of W. Bengal & Assam are pretty much extended Bangladesh. I read somewhere that a Bangladeshi minister/leader (don’t know exact title) was proposing “lebensraum� (german for living space which Hitler asked for before attacking czechoslovakia) for the exploding population of Bangladesh. Biharis, for all their faults, are quite capable of dealing with Bangladeshis. Assamese also know how to take of Bangladeshis and will do something in due course of time like the Burmese do periodically to their Muslim Rohingaya. West Bengali Hindus, on the other hand, are useless, do-nothing, commie people and pretty soon waste bengal will banega Bangladesh unless Biharis save their ass.

Same Indian stupidity could be seen in Sri Lanka when India trained the LTTE. It was only the small sliver of water, palk strait, separating India and Sri Lanka which allowed India to wash its hands off Lanka without serious damage to itself tho Lanka was in a serious mess.

Re: # 413

In general people of Pakistan have never been against social elites. To this day PPP is nothing but party of feudal lords, pirs, and drug pushers but still what ever portion of population votes, does so for them. The same thing goes for other parties as well.

The reason for this attitude of pakistanis is that the social elite itself has always been plundering national wealth that came to the country as foreign aid in order to influence the domestic and foreign policies of GOP. On the other hand social elite were always there to "protect" masses from the corruption of police and bureaucracy.

This is the reason communist manifesto failed in Pakistan. Commies failed to mobilize grass root populace against elite. And the mother of all jokes is that, the head and pattron saint of Pakis communists was one of the biggest feudal lord himself - mian iftekhar.

But thanks to Muttaraf and Shortcut Aziz this social dynamics have changed 180 degrees now. The international soodkhors like IMF, WB, paris club and all other laantis now want return on their investment. The social elite, who was the biggest beneficiary of their "loans" now does so by imposing cruel indirect taxes and duties, which has more profound effect at the grass root level. The corruption of elite, that once only, middle class was aware of, is now making itself down to the grass root level. First time in the history of Pakistan, not only the middle class, but grass root is also asking the question "where the fukk is MY money".

Thanks to Muttaraf again, he tried to address this awareness with brute force, with massacres, illegal detentions, and kidnapping rings. The middle class that used to prefer order over the corruption, by preferring military rule than those of inefficient and moronic politicians is also questioning their own judgement of the past.

The middle class supports the ideology of political Islam because when grass root will bring their guilotines, they have a chance to become their mentors in the ideology. We are practically standing right on one day before that was "the day of bastile". The social elite is trying to corrupt the sedition by bay hayyai and what was the Festivals of Fools in France ones. They don't realize that grass root in Pakistan and especially the conservative middle class is taking it no less than the Prima Nocta that european social elites used to "crush" sedition.

Hamidm sahib:

Have you seen the 14 minute documentary on Swat Valley in today's New York Times web-site?

So that is what you want to do to "my" Kashmir Valley, "my" Kashmiri people also?

Believe me there are almost billion in that part of the world who would not let it happen. Please give this nightmare, it is not a dream.

Clouds turned into Rain of violence which should stop now after the new deal.

Re: # 412

CreateAlpha

Middle class is not free from blame neither are they helpless, they are the main supporters whenever the military has taken over simply because that for them is the only way elites who dominate politics are defeated. Now with the Mulla revolution, that too is sponsored and promoted by middle class merchants, professionals and academia. Again, direct product of political disenfranchisement, interference and control by those who are supposed to serve.

Rf sahib, but that is true of elites everywhere. The way I see it is that the so called urban pakistani who was always bamboozled by either the army or the feudals (who used the mullahs to their end) kind of got shocked into inactive helpnessnes to see the mullahs actualy get stronger than both the army and the feudals. The awam had a process (however inept) to deal with the army or the feudals (the rotating governance mandate). But they have nothing to deal with the mullahs. It is sad. They seem helpless.

Re: # 405

hamidm2

In his younger days and in a different setting while sitting with his close people AH would question the existence of god, but with the passage of time being the politician he is, AH then became Pir sahib.

If you wish to have legal, efficient and immediate solutions to a problem then all u have to do is say Allah o Akber and this so and so person has committed blasphemy, end of story. AH understands and respects the monopoly of violence and the day he raises this anti-religion slogan that will be like signing his death warrant.

Solution? Yaar hamidm2, many a smart people have tried and failed simply because they have failed to counter an ideology with a counter ideology. They kept throwing good money at these chaps who kept the money by saying Bismillah, we can be patient and that patience is paying off. So first of all give these the credit they deserve, respect them for their political acumen and consistency and recognize the civil society failures. After that, we need to revive the social slogans raised by PPP back in the sixties and make them stick. In addition, we have to respond in the language they understand and respect, if they have no qualms in killing their opponents then they will not object when they get the same treatment. But for that to happen there has to be a very strong political and financial support system else nothing will be gained.

Or, we can all grow a beard and wait for the 72 houries promised.

#407 Posted by CreateAlpha on February 22, 2009 9:13:23 am

I think people, especially Americans, underestimate Pakistani ruling class. Tell me one country where leadership has fooled so many adversaries for so long - the jihadis, common citizens, Indian governmnet, Indian Muslims, USA liberals, CIA, China, Saudi Arabia, Ordinary Arabs.

These elites (ISI/Army, Feudals and other highly educated folks) switch their masks quickly to fit the circumstances. They wont fight anybody to get killed but always use one against another. They have no long term goals for their countrymen and are looking after only their own well being.

It is sad rf sahib. One feels bad for the ostriches and sheep as they duck or graze while the hyenas strategically circle them.

Re: # 404

CreateAlpha Sahib

Such is the conditioning of the Pakistani mind, dangle American/Jewish/Indian red flag and they will react immediately, try talking to them about the Taliban/Establishment atrocities and they draw a blank. But then again, what is the population sample are we talking about, middle class born again muslims of Karachi, Lahore, Pindi or Peshawar Or the rural populations that have never been able to express their opinions.

Control and command structures in the form of Madaris are spread across the cities of Pakistan, they can muster the troops whenever required thus the impressive bravado whenever they wish to show muscle for issues that favor their ideology.

What does Pakistan have to counter this organized pressure group? Political parties such as PPP, ANP, MQM the most vilified parties of the country. Nationalists have been subjected to abuses from day one, communists were uprooted in the fifties and socialist saw their leader being hanged in 1979, his daughter shot in day light and scores of their leaders either brutally murdered or marginalized in the political setup.

This is all by design, these people have a vision and are disciplined enough to make deals whenever required and yet maintain their primary goals. Imran Khan is well aware of their prowess and chose to sleep with the enemy rather than being mauled by it, ethnic pride also played a major role in his decision. As for the Hameed Guls of this world, well they are the nucleus of this ideology, but they are not alone neither is the vision dependent on one person.

Shah of Iran was overthrown by the efforts of socials and Islamists, but when the Islamist took over the first thing they did was to eliminate the socialist elements from all walks of life. Do you remember Bani Sadr? If not google it. History will repeat itself in Pakistan, Imran Khan will be hanged in public for his adulterous life. NS will take the first flight to London and Zardari, well if he lives will spend the rest of his life either in Dubai or NY.

Pardesi, I don't think pakistanis wil be able to do that. you are looking at a long term civil hostilities among the pakistanis before a clear winner emerges

#404 Posted by CreateAlpha on February 22, 2009 8:53:15 am
"I think pakistanis deserve what is coming. they don;t have the intestinal fortitude for a good fight."

They want USA to fight and save their arse. This way they are covered on both ends. USA wins - they are part of the winning team. USA leaves - they grow beard and get ready to march towards Delhi.

Re: # 401

bismillah mian,

... i agree, but what do we do about it? ..... how do you reign in people like imran khan, nawaz sharif, hamid mir, shahid hussain, aneeq ahmed, doctor israr, hamid gul and other 'washed' spokesmen for the devil?

..... more importantly how do you stop all these people from praying five times a day! ...... i always say that 'namaz is the root of all evil - namaz tamam buraiyee ki jar hai' ..... when i was growing up most mosques used to be empty other than on fridays and eid ..... now people are spilling out out on the street and into the gutters on a weekday afternoon ........ where have we gone wrong? ..... maybe we should tear down half the mosques and killl half the mullahs - it is fine by me, but i am sure most people would object ......... what is the solution? ... can altaph bhai issue a fatwa against namaz?

rf sahib, I was jut watching Iram Khan on Fareed Zakharia's GPS show. imran continued with the rhetoric of the pakistani gov't not having the choice with the swat deal, the army not having a choice. It is comical and sad at the same time. did you see that video of thousands of 10 yr old kids in karachi marching wearing fake suicide vests screaming "death to jews" when the israel/palistinain hostilities were there. But not even 10 peolpe marched in karachi or lahore to condemn these islamists when 100's of girls schools were burned down, acid thrown on girls faces, people strung up on lamp posts in khooni chowk. I think pakistanis deserve what is coming. they don;t have the intestinal fortitude for a good fight.

Re: # 397
कृष�ण ABCD,

Find your answer in my latest I-log.

Re: # 397

wow krishna! Just when everything was getting all hunkydory suddenly you start talking tough again...must I remind you of 1000 years history again? Speak for yourself (india) though...indi is not US!

Re: # 387

hamidm2

Sirjee, this has been a well planned and deliberate exercise, take the cricket team for example, these washed Talibs took over the team and transformed it into a walking talking Tablighee promo.

These innocent looking, soft spoken humble creatures are spreading like the deadly locust, destroying everything in their way. Civilized world has few options, one of them is extermination through pesticide.

The “strategic depth� strategy has precedence in its stupidity.

In 1965, Pak army attacked Kashmir and thought it could wrest it without war being expanded. Only thing Indians were not part of that “strategic thinking� and attacked Lahore instead. Same thing in Kargil.

Same thing with war of thousand cuts strategy - Indoctrinate and use poor, illiterate, desperate, low caste muslims like Ajmal Kasab as cannon fodder for terrorism in India and Afghanistan but the consequent damage due to the increased radicalization of Paki society was not taken into account. Now you have every one, every where running around with guns and bombs killing each other like shia-sunni, pathan-mohajir, etc. are doing to each other.

Also don’t know if they still teach “truths� like One Muslim equal to 10 Hindus, Paki nuclear weapon is better than Indian, etc,. in Paki schools but the sheer stupidity of it and the Pakis on this site actually buying it – would be very funny if it were not dangerous.

When 2 people are fighting each other with guns in battle-field, it does not matter what religion you are, how big your stature is, etc. A bullet will just go wherever it is fired. In fact the bigger in stature/size you are the bigger target you will make. And other things are irrelevant.

And even tho India says it will not use nuclear weapons first you can’t really trust that/assume that. And you also can’t assume that if you use nuclear weapons first, India will only retaliate once and not annihilate you completely by taking out all your cities because it could.

Making stupid assumptions and acting without thinking thru on consequences of your actions can get you in some real mess which is what we are seeing in present day Pure-land.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Taliban in Swat is nothing but the Pak Ruling Elite’s “Strategic Depth theory� with regards to Afghanistan turned upside down on its head.

While Pak was creating/using Taliban to create “Strategic Depth� in Afghan-land as their extended region (in case India attacked from east), the Taliban was creating their own “Strategic Depth� within Pakistan.

When US attacked Afghan-land, Taliban naturally left Afghanistan and took refuge in into their strategic depth region within Pakistan in the NWFP and Balochistan. And now the Taliban are slowly expanding their “strategic depth� into Punjab and Karachi as per the plan.

Don’t know why all these articles and randi-rona.

As Forrest Gump said - "Stupid is as stupid does."

#382 Goldfinger

[Re: # 372 krishna...I already said that these guys were capable of removing the smug smirks from your faces but all your countrymen got upset about it and wouldn't agree...now here it is right from the horse's mouth! ]

India is fully capable of erasing Pakiland AND Afganistan off the face of the map. If we wanted, with our 1 billion+ people, we could just keep marching and eradicating all that came in our way. It would be possible for India, or the US (if it wanted) to eradicate EVERY man, woman and child from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

But we are a humane people, not Muslims, so terrorism will continue to eat away at our national fabric.

Re: # 387
Beta Hamid,

By the next U.S elections you WILL know me better; never mind my clean countenance and out-of-the-sink feet.

I've chosen the 'safest way' and the signs repeatedly say: Hell in NOT this way! Sory, I can't trust you; you're not the Highest Authority.

I have sufficient freedom , liberty worth cherishing, and plenty of happiness. All I now want is 'ChowQ Stuffed' (patent pending) to offer 'salah' behind me.

2:153
O YOU who have attained to faith! Seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: for, behold, God is with those who are patient in adversity.

#380 Posted by tahir

tahir mian,

In fact I keep my 'show picture' option unticked to show bandwidth and hence missed arjun's posting.

I have given my opinion in #385 below. I did not understand your 'hindi' and least about what this flash(flush) was all about.

I can assure you that an average hindu does not like a mussalman not for what he is but what he does or what he has done through the history such as desecrating the hindu holy places a la babar and dishonouring hindu women. I think it is quite natural. But I am sure when it comes to some holy scripture, nobody would think of desecrating it, notwithstanding the attitude of the Government pampering the non hindus. Once the issues are resolved, we are good neighbours.

You should believe me, many of my friends are muslims - sunnis and shias. Their internal differences don't bother us.

The incidence was in bad taste indeed.

If the scenario depicted in my post #372 - which I have been speaking about for so long does happen, I want all the "liberal" "intellectuals" in India beginning with Romila Thapar and the entire JNU campus and alumni to all the islamist sympathizers to be arrested, and WHIPPED in public EVERY day for the rest of their lives.

funny how pakis don't have a problem with islamic terrorism...but put the shitty book in the shitter(or post photos of it) and they're all riled up


gaandfinger, tahir and other pakis...please call someone who cares about your feelings...you islamofascists have no rights not to get your feelings hurt...

you can run around with "freedom go to hell" and "behead those who insult islam" signs in the UK but in the US, this is called free speech...deal with it...(or don't..either way, i don't give mohammeds's ass)

Re:#391 hamidm2

Good for you. There is hope yet.

Re: # 385

nemisis mian,

.... urchin is a despicable creature but he does have the right to say whatever he wants ...... freedom of speech is more important than coddling mohammedans whose feelings are easily hurt .....

For all of those who are jumping on the condemn-Arjun bandwagon, I'd like to ask - what if it was the Mein Kampf in the toilet? Would they be displaying an equal amount of righteous indignation? The Mein Kampf, too, was held sacred by millions of Germans. Should decent people be worried about offending Nazis and their enablers, in such a case?

Think about that, and let me know, instead of displaying emotional knee-jerk reactions.

Re: # 381

Hamidm,

I could agree with smuggling in the other stuff....but beef?! I wouldn't trust these wicked people with that in their paws....they could send in rotten beef from dead and diseased cows...then what do we do?

As for those talibs prancing around with bollywood starlets...sounds great therapy and could make some nice love traingle stories...would also keep talibs busy with doing something constructive rather than beheading people day in and day out...good idea...

Re: # 376
Mr. Maharana,

"Your post about muslim's holy book in toilet is uncalled for and does not lead to any civil discussion."

Thanks for supporting what is right.

And thanks to Goldfinger (and others) for raising his voice and the golden finger in the correct direction.

Truth prevails, always.

Re: # 380

tahir mian,

.... you are not a talib??!! .... well, you had me fooled! .... next thing you will be telling me that you shave and don't wash your feet in the sink .... life is full of surprises ......

..... actually, the unwashed taliban don't scare me as much as their washed apologists and supporters ....... 'civilized' people like imran khan and nawaz sharif are a much bigger threat than cavemen like fazlullah and baitullah .... that is why i have always called for bombing muridke, mansoora, model town, akora khattak and now i am adding raiwind to the list of targets .... stay away from these places because if obama does what he should do, the drones will be coming soon ..... another good target would be the coming long march and dharna - i hope you are not planning on being there ........

..... i wish you well and hope you will leave the sirat-ul-mustaqeen to hell and get on the path to freedom , liberty and the pursuit of happiness .........

Re: # 372

Good post, its proactive thinkers such as these who will change the course of history or we shall all perish.

#376 Posted by Maharana

I traced the site and found that it has been done by a sick mind. Similar to the ones which give cowdung and urine stories to Goldfinger.

It is somebody's illegitimate child. Why should have arjun adopted it?

I agree with you maharana. arjun should not have done it. Now any bloke can pick up any holy scripture and place it anywhere and photograph it. What does it prove? What will it achieve?

Re: # 359
Mr. Shankar (since 1999?),

"For once in my life,I agree with jay. Arjun, you have crossed the line. To insult a religion like that is inexcusable."

And then the whole world asks, "What's the Danish cartoon issue"! The issue is that too many sick minds these days pose as sages, and the assault on religion is pre-meditated and very organized.

To utter something silly once or twice may be considered normal but to persist in abuse shows the disturbed thought-pattern of the perpetrator.

I'm not done with Arjun yet because lunatics like him ruin it all for others.

Shanti.

Re 372: Very good article by Udayan.

Quickly, what is the solution?

Anglophied Baki Darbari Gandus will try to extract more mula from unkill and rest of west by promising good fight against Taliban. We need to educate them about this chicanery. Unkill might be concerned more about next quarterly results and avoiding looming depression. It's India who needs to fight for its civilizational well-being.

Indians are slowly turning into Teleban with shows on Sharukh Khan's undy. First they need to be woken up.

Open up satellite IITs, IIMs, AIMSs in Herat, Kabul and even Kandahar. To protect them send 200K steel boots on the ground. Start war to get complete Kashmir and northern area to get secure acces to Afghanistan.

Poor Abdul needs to be treated with compassion and care so that ... Real enemy of civilizational India is Darbari Gandu. If necessary do not hesitate to nuke them in Pindi and I'bad.

Re: # 372 krishna...I already said that these guys were capable of removing the smug smirks from your faces but all your countrymen got upset about it and wouldn't agree...now here it is right from the horse's mouth!

Re: # 373

goldfinger mian,

.... let's not cut off our nose to spite our face ..... even though i do not like cross border cricket and tourism, i am all for 'smuggling' indian medicines, beef, tires and bollywood movies ........ it wil save us a lot of foreign exchange and it will also calm down the taliban once they see moslem lads having their way with infidel girls in bollywood .....

Re: # 354

Now that the tide is turning in truth's favour, here's the Hindi translation of what I wrote earlier (for all to read):

If you like you can be whatever you want, but do you fancy seeing the Muslim holy book in a flush?

Ask your friends here if they apologize for their ugly gestures, and promise not to repeat such mistakes again, all will be forgiven. [new line: They can board my Samjhota Express without attempting to derail it]

The Taliban are not my role model, how could you think that way? Most of such people don't know what God wants because they don't know the meanings (or the deeper significance) of the Arabic text. I have spent considerable time deciphering things. God knows who is better.

शांति
PS: Phew!! Hindi is not easy to type!

#375 Posted by tahir

Oh, I see. You typed J..E..E!!

Good effort.

#373 Posted by Goldfinger

"...that stuff you manufacture there is heaps of garbage...might as well not do it"

May God help you out of this parannoia

Re: # 372

krishna mian,

.... aap key mun mein ghee shakar! ... it really warms the cockles of my heart to see the horrible hindoos running scared! ..... i have always maintained that india is an artificial state created by the british and should be returned to its rightful owners, the taliban who are the descendents of mahmud ghazni, ghauri and babar ........ however, as everyone knows, babar despised india and indians; so it might be tough to get the taliban to leave the pristine air of swat to go down to the hell hole of delhi .......

Arjun,

Your post about muslim's holy book in toilet is uncalled for and does not lead to any civil discussion. I agree with all the posters who criticise your behavior and intent.
Adios

Re: # 355
Nem,

क�या आप अपने म�ंशी-जेईई?
Are you his munshi-jee?

Re: # 369
tahmed...I don't think you should worry too much about arjun...he's just doing his job as an employee probably of some clandestine Hindutva organisation...his mission (mantra) is to keep uttering Paki Paki and trying to act tough...imagine what sort of a person would drop a book (any book) into toilet and take a picture of it? And these johnnies here are saying that they have the world's best education!

Re: # 358 I knew exactly what you were going to say...that is why i asked...but i'm sorry to burst your bubble...that stuff you manufacture there is heaps of garbage...might as well not do it...btw did you know that jet fighters too are being manufactured in Pak under the name of JF 17 Thunder...pretty good stuff they say...

As for being so mad at Paki education...careful now...you don't want this anger to give you bothersome haemorrhoids in later life.
Just take it easy.

Five hours’ drive to doom

Udayan Namboodiri

Taliban country is not just a politico-geographic space, but an organism moving fast to overwhelm India with terror, infiltration and economic ruin

The first sign that America's war against terrorism was going terribly wrong came soon after the fall of Kabul, in November 2001. Pakistan, never comfortable with the idea of losing its strategic depth, began pushing irregulars over the border into Afghanistan for hit and run operations. I was then covering foreign affairs for a national daily and reported the developments first. To cut a long story short, the news was met with disbelief.

Much the same reaction was seen after the news hit the world that the democratically elected government of Pakistan had practically signed away the Swat Valley to a bunch of people who were aptly described by US special envoy Richard Holbrooke as "murderers and thugs". On the following day, as if shake everybody into realising that it wasn’t just a bad dream, the Talib shot dead a Pakistani TV reporter in Matta town.

Today, to the world outside Pakistan, the situation is something like the elephant and the five blind men. Some people see it as a return of the era of gendercide, the targeted attack of women's basic human rights; others believe it is the beginning of the atomisation of Pakistan, proof enough of the basic hollowness of the very concept of a Pakistani nation. Yet others are spared no sleep by the vision of Pakistan's nuclear assets being controlled by unlettered fanatics who know only to kill. The variegated responses betray the specific concerns that the authors of each have about the Taliban. Saturday Special therefore features two eminent experts on the region, M. Rama Rao (Main Article) and Kanchan Lakshman (The Other Voice)

Pakistan had signed peace deals with fundamentalist forces after suffering losses in armed combat. Only last May the Islamabad establishment agreed to a gradual pull-out of troops from the Swat. But nobody had expected this. However, like all disasters, this too had been predicted. History, after all, is nothing put a pile-up of human bungles. The cynic in me says 'the fun has only begun'; but the deeper concern felt by all right-thinking people in India was best articulated by Arun Jaitley, the senior BJP' leader: "Taliban is now only a five -hour drive from India".

For those of us who have followed the US' war on terrorism almost on a daily basis, February 17 marked the end of Phase 1. It began with Richard Armitage summoning the head of Pakistani military intelligence, who happened to be in Washington at the time of 9/11, and threatening to bomb his country back to the stone age if it did not comply with America's orders. Eight years and five months later, Pakistan has indeed gone into the womb posture . American 'Drone' aircraft are bombing Pakistani villages in the north-west and killing Pakistani civilisans as so much 'collateral damages'. These things are déjà vu now. By the way, Afghanistan, whose salvation was the raison de etre, is already in the Paleolithic age. Some people like to call it a 'failed state', but quickly add that it’s only a metaphor.

What happened to India during Phase 1? Well, India too was singed. Terrorism continued unabated, but the world's largest democracy did quite well in macro-economic terms at least. Now, that Phase 2 has begun, expect more than just sparks from the fire that is raging next door. It doesn't take a doomsdayer to predict the following:

1. Expect more terrorism, this time with a focus on India's power grids, dams and railways. These are everyday things to us Indians, but the Pakistanis hate us for owning these things.

2. Expect refugees on the streets: As a small boy in 1971, I saw Pakistanis fighting each other for Indian aid khichuri in an open-air 'camp' in a marsh outside Calcutta which is today known as Salt Lake city. Of course, a war happened that December and those refugees became Bangladeshis. I get an eerie feeling that it won't be long before a civil war breaks out Punjab Pakistan leading to a skedaddle of unprecedented proportions. The Taliban will certainly not be complacent with just the north-west.

3. Expect population explosion in India: The United Nations anyway expects Pakistan to become the world's third most populous country by 2040. Without much of an economy to support them, and the Taliban exacerbating their misery, millions of Pakistanis would be forced to infiltrate into India. These would be the new infiltrators, because by then today's Bangladeshi illegal squatters would become legitimate citizens.

Resultantly, we would see the western slice of India afflicted with the same problem that devils the east and north-east now. India's own population would by then touch the 1.5 billion mark. Add to that the hundreds of millions from Pakistan who would elude Census officials by being forever on the move.

4. Expect big power rivalry in South Asia Major: The United States had invested heavily into diplomacy with the Central Asian republics in the hope that it would get bases from where it could keep its troops in Afghanistan supplied with material. Since 2001, Pakistan provided not only Karachi port, but also overland transportation rights to American military supplies. But the arrangement began to wobble after the growth of militancy in the north-west. The urgency for an alternative base or some bases in central Asia was enhanced when Taliban forces began attacking American convoys passing through the Khyber. American guns, ammunition, uniforms, food, vehicles, even United Nations humanitarian material began to fall into Taliban hands.

However, Russia, the regional big brother and former boss of the commissars who rule in Bishkek, Tashkent, etc. ,had no intention of facilitating a resolution to America’s problem. So, Moscow began investing double into diplomacy to ensure that America is denied these bases. On Thursday came the news that Krgystan has decided not to renew its lease for the Manas air field.

This was met with shattering shock in western capitals, even though London's Independent had predicted it only last month through a news story that said Moscow was paying Central Asian governments up to $ 2 billion for each denied air base. Interestingly, all this, including the Swat Valley deal, happened in the very week that Russian observed the 20th anniversary of the pullout of the Red Army from Afghanistan. The ironies of history can sometimes resemble sick jokes.

Unless India reshapes its foreign policy to adopt a more proactive one, our hapless citizens would be left holding the baby. All the strategic economic decisions being taken and implemented right now would become meaningless when India becomes indistinguishable from the larger South Asian mess.

The problem with the Congress party's foreign affairs think tankers –– who, given the present political outlook seem certain to dominate for at least five more years –– is that too often day-dreamers take the upper hand. The crisis that afflicts Pakistan today should not be seen as just an internal affair of Pakistan. India must recognise that the Talibanisation of Pakistan is already happening and once Islamabad itself is headed by a mullah, the very existence of India will be threatened.

-- The writer is Senior Editor, The Pioneer

#355 Posted by tahir

" क�या आप अपने म�ंशी-जेईई? "

tahir mian,

It is getting difficult for me. I think it is hindi plus something.

Can't we revert to English?

Re: # 369

tahmed,

.... what bothers me about people like urchin, nemesis, guru, pinku, laddu, jayp, pepe and the cast of a hundred horrible hindoos is that they make our urstruly and mad masadi look like intellectual giants and pussified pacifists! .....

hamidm: while urchin is no doubt very angry, i dont think he qualifies for a young man anymore at least. he has been parrotting his "paki! paki!" song for 10 years on chowk. But the mind is that of a sea-urchin, perhaps. (no offense to sea-urchins, of course).

Re: # 361

urchin,

.... you are a very angry young man .... your impotent rage could be a symptom of a deeper sexual problem..... have you thought of getting professional help? .... you are scary!

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dost mittar sahib: You get an F in both answers, I am sorry to say.

1. The correct answer was: Some Islamic parties did contest (mullah fazloo, who was the only one from his party to get a seat, being a case in point. And they were routed. And this is consistent with history - unlike communalism-obsessed hindus who have made BJP a major party in India, Pakistanis have historically given humiliating defeats to religious parties in elections. Preferring to vote for mainstream parties that promise practical things like roti, kapra, makan.

2. The sharia laws were introduced by a dictator, not legislated. And I suggest you think a bit about what "sharia" means - it simply means the laws of the state. The entire issue begs the question I had indicated - through what process are laws formulated?? "Sharia" promoters assume that the process will be an undemocratic one (i.e. mullahs becoming lawgivers). Per the election results above - it is clear that Pakistanis are not about to give mullahs this power over society. Which is the point I made earlier, but which you ignored in your desire to see Pakistanis suffer (as Swatis have done) under the reign of terror of the taliban animals.

Re: # 362

shankar mian,

for once in my life i agree with tahmed, not only does urchin's post show the 'diseased mind of the poster who is trying to get attention', it also shows the mindset of the nation he belongs to ........ after many years on chowk i am convinced that all horrible hindoos suffer from paki fixation - they just can't get over ghauri, ghazni, jinnah, partition and all that other stuff .... why? .... i don't know, you are the shrink ..... it might have something to do with penis envy ..

nemesis3: terrible news for you - the taliban, al qaeda are not "our own people".

shankar: for once in my life, I disagree with you. Posting pictures of the Quran (or any other book held sacred by somene, or indeed any form of insults) merely shows the diseased mind of the poster who is trying to get attention.

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#356 Posted by Goldfinger

Leave aside madrassa. Entire education system is plagiarized and corrupted. If a school in Pakistan makes students believe that hindus sided with brits in muslim's fight against them to regain India (or Pakistan) and that India was separated from Pakistan in 1947 and that Pakistan which was created by zinno...jinno...jinnah has got the cultural history of 8000 years, your not being the product of madrassa should not be any better deal.

For once in my life,I agree with jay.
Arjun, you have crossed the line.
To insult a religion like that is inexcusable.

#356 Posted by Goldfinger

"So tell me what great stuff you manufacture down there in indi land that would make people go all crazy?"

You must be crazy to put that question. Right from a needle and paper-clip, to Aircrafts and space launching vehicles, everything is manufactured in India. Our cars are exported and much in demand. Foreign market is crazy about Indian textiles. Did you forget softwares?

I still tend to believe that you were poking pun at me.

#354 Posted by tahir

Wah, tahir mian, aap ne to kamaal kar diya. I am trying to understand what you wanted to convey to me. Some words are beyond comprehension, though I think I can read and understand hindi well.

Any way, I am impressed. Let me however clarify that in the last para of #353, I have not meant to allude any references to you. I am trying to understand what is written, sincerely.

Kind regards.

Re: # 351 nemesis3:

"Coming from those who consider the madrassa teachings as the basis of their philosophical arguments."

How did you come to that conclusion? I'm the furthest thing away from your above description...in fact I think religions are all just fairy tales for the control of unwary masses...

As for your saying, "You are sadly lucky that of those things that you get in your karkhana bazar can not contain anything locally made since the pakiland has to depend on imports/smuggling even for a small item like cycle chain. And you think you are smart!"

So tell me what great stuff you manufacture down there in indi land that would make people go all crazy?

Re: # 353
"I am sure, he meant 'die-hard' muslims. You do not seem to attach importance to the last part of his sentence."

Don't put words in his mouth; let him say what he thinks.
क�या आप अपने म�ंशी-जेईई?

Re: # 353
"you want to treat a non-believer as the one who deserves only ugly treatment."

अगर त�म चाहो तो त�म क�या कर रहे हैं रहना चाहते हैं, तो म��े यहा� पर म�सलमानों के साथ अपने को ठीक गीता �क फ�लश, वे? अपने दोस�तों से पूछो कर में रखा शो नहीं है (स�वयं) भले आदमी की तरह माफी मा�गने के लि� शामिल है, इस साइट से उनके बदसूरती, और वापस फिर से गलती दोहराना नहीं. सब तो क�षमा किया जा�गा. त�म गंभीरता से कहा कि तालिबान मेरे आदर�श रहे हैं बारे में सोच भी नहीं सकता है! केवल दूर करने के लि� जो विस�तार से किताब पढ़ नहीं है जाने उन. मेरे पास है. शांति

#350 Posted by tahir on February 22, 2009 3:39:40 am
Re: # 347
Jay,

"You seem to be one of those decent muslims, very hard to find."

I am sure, he meant 'die-hard' muslims. You do not seem to attach importance to the last part of his sentence.

Tahir mian, there is nothing wrong in being a devout muslim. Only thing that goes awry is that you want to treat a non-believer as the one who deserves only ugly treatment. This thinking of yours is giving handle to the religious extremists in our part of the world. Just as people in swat initially believed that taliban was there to give them good governance, hindus here think that these religious hooligans would help settle score. Consequence is for everyone to see.

#349 Posted by tahir

"Unless a girl in your family converts and marries into mine, you'll never know the difference"

Now you are deviating from the issue.

#348 Posted by Goldfinger

"and no your "Made in Ulsa nagar" can not fool the likes of us grizzled travellers..."


Coming from those who consider the madrassa teachings as the basis of their philosophical arguments.

You are sadly lucky that of those things that you get in your karkhana bazar can not contain anything locally made since the pakiland has to depend on imports/smuggling even for a small item like cycle chain. And you think you are smart!

Re: # 347
Jay,

"You seem to be one of those decent muslims, very hard to find."

Very hard to find indeed, but don't provoke decent folks.

"Hamidm is the only one I have seen on chowk, who always takes religion with a glass of single malt wisky, the only way to do it."

That is Ham-damn's way which is not the prescribed पवित�र way.

Shanti.

Re: # 345
"I know I am. Also sure, you are not!!"

Unless a girl in your family converts and marries into mine, you'll never know the difference.

Time has shown the true face of Laddus and their Daddus on this heathen website.

Time will indeed tell a lot more.

re:344 nemesis3:

big deal nem3...on the outskirts of Peshawar, near Jamrud on way to kabul is a seedy sprawling market...sort of shopper's paradise...called Karkhano Bazar...here are manufactured all things under the sun (some even hidden from it)...from Lux soaps to Pantene shampoos to colgate tooth pastes to swiss watches and japenese TVs...just be aware of the label "Made as" as compared to "Made in..." Also real stuff too is there from gps to yank military food rations...to russky night goggles etc...its great to go there when we visit hom, and no your "Made in Ulsa nagar" can not fool the likes of us grizzled travellers...

Don't call it my sickness or hatred...just call it pay back...don't be a wuss...if you guys can dish out vitriole you ought to be able to take it as well in return...

Re: # 334

tahir,

You seem to be one of those decent muslims, very hard to find. Hamidm is the only one I have seen on chowk, who always takes religion with a glass of single malt wisky, the only way to do it.

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#343 Posted by tahir

"Show me you're mostly noble and come from decent families"

I know I am. Also sure, you are not!!

#341 Posted by Goldfinger

There is a place called Ulhas Nagar, near Mumbai. They stamp all their goods as made in USA. Actually they mean to say made in Ulhasnagar Sindhi Association. The likes of Goldfinger think it is made in United States of India.

GF, what you have is a kind of sickness. Anything that gives credit to Indian culture is a taboo. I remember some ruling party members in Pakistan having said exports from Pakistan to India should be subject to India's solving the the Kashmir problem.

If evil Indus-ians (only evil ones) won't learn to behave here, I'll have to start quoting from your own scriptures.

Show me you're mostly noble and come from decent families.

A bad news for me is that poor Salma and Abdul are suffering because of darbari ga.dus such as you and the dim wit. You sold their wellbeing and future for few crums because of your hatred of civilizational India.

Bakis keep it in mind that for many Indians growing up in 60s and 70s Hijabed Salma was also a reflection of dear mother India, that includes even the staunch RSS activist and Shiv Sainik. When in Sawat poor good soul Khel Ka game hota hain To our heart also wails. Poor talibani is also Indian responsibility. India will be able to shoulder it and correct the mistakes of last millenia if you Baki curtail your hatred because of your religion/Arabization. India should fight Arabization of Afghanistan with military might. Common present day Indian and Baki need to be together in this fight for progress and peace of the subcontinent.

Recently when an elder relative of mine was twirling his long mustache and telling me about our ancestor Shake Shalivahan and how VijayNagar was defended and how Ch. Shivaji was helped, I had to tell him that between Shalivahan and Ch. Shivaji all our ancestors "gandu nikle". Shalivahan saved mother India from Huns but there after our ancestors failed in stopping Turks and Mughals. Todays suffering is the curse of millions of Maulis (mothers) who suffered at these brutes hand. It was first spiritual weakness because of which those ancestors did not see/feel what was coming towards Gandhar (Kandhahar) and todays Iran. Abrahmic gandugiri should have been stopped on the bank of Tigris. They did not hear Persians wailing.

Most of the Indians, at least where I grew up, wish good for Baki land, because we still see even Baki Salma in shuttle-cock burkha, a reflection of mother India. She will nurture "Suputs" who will bring glory to India, the subcontinent.

It's kind of late and I am not coherent mostly because of emotions because we do feel the pain and suffering of our people whether they are in Mumbai or in Mangora.

Re: # 318 gur:

"Ignorance is Golden,

Patil/Patel/Kulkarni are titles. Mentioned even in Dnyneshwari 1200 AD. Dharmashalas and Sarais were built by Ashokas along the GT road. Since for you guys history starts with some Bin guy landed in Sindh you would not hear anything about real India of past or present. Now enjoy the presence of new Bin guy and the drones howering over your head."

This seems to be quite futile...however all historians, Hindu as well as others credit Sher Shah with all those great administration skills and giving out exemplery justice to one and all...as well as being the first to incorporate Rupee into financial transactions instead of the previously used tanka...and fantastic postal system...open your eyes...don't bring in worshippers of Kali Maa into everything...one has to call a spade a spade sometimes

#334 Posted by tahir on February 21, 2009 6:56:56 pm
Re: # 307
" may he--whom you worship--forgive you all your sins!"

Wow, dispensation of justice is so fast and effective!

No wonder, talibs are having a field day!!

tahir mian,

I never thought you could bless also. In fact I was wondering if you were not a black magician from the eastern border of India. They do these cursing business. But they can only do harm by invoking evil powers.

#319 Posted by tahmed32

" those drones are based in pakistan, protected by pakistani troops, and used to take out the thugs threatening not just NATO/US but also Pakistani troops in Pakistan."

Bad news for you tahmed! You need US trops to protect you from your own people. Then you talk of taking over India. Hamidm is happy imagining Indians soldiers are made up of straw.

Is your army made up of eunuchs?

Wah, merey mitti ke sher!!!!!

#327 Posted by hamidm2

" Hospital had advised against burying the body because they said the virus could harm other people through the soil"

For once, you agree that the Hindu system of burning the dead bodies is the most scientific and hygienic.

"now we know what to do with masadi !"

Why only masadi? The entire musla community should adopt this system. We will have cleaner globe with less rabid viruses.

"and Muslims are not extremists when they do for a guinine reason."

And the genuine reason is guided by .......

#335 Posted by tahir

You got me wrong. I asked "do you still live in that caveman's age?" Mind you..."age"

Using toilet paper is not a bad idea.

By the way, do you think the earth is flat?

Re: # 326
"Do you still live in that caveman's age?"

I live in a 'pukka' house, tree-swinging Menses.

"Do you still use the holy stone to clean....as hamidm suggests?"

No, I use toilet paper that has names of some ChowQ devotees on it. Ham-damn uses 'Fair & Lovely' where he shouldn't.

Re: # 307
Jay,
"Considering the extreme sensitivity of muslims about the book, that image was unnecessary."

If that really came off your tongue, may he--whom you worship--forgive you all your sins!

Some people who've forgotten who gave them birth, are bent upon being satan's minions here at ChowQ. Everyone who is provoked will fight back, and Muslims are not extremists when they do for a genuine reason.

Peace.

Re: # 307
Jay,
"Considering the extreme sensitivity of muslims about the book, that image was unnecessary."

If that really came off your tongue, may he--whom you worship--forgive you all your sins!

Some people who've forgotten who gave them birth are bent upon being satan's minions here at ChowQ. Everyone who is provoked will fight back, and Muslims are not extremists when they do for a guinine reason.

Peace.

tahmed saheb:

"Let me help you improve your comprehension: Which parties were elected to power in the last elections in Pakistan? How many votes did the religious parties - let alone the taliban whom you claim represent islam - get??"

I had already answered that question but let me be more specific wrt your questions:

1. Islamic parties did not win any seat in the last election for the same reason that they hurriyet did not win any seat in the Jammu and Kashmir elections, they did not participate in the elections.

2. There is no need for the shariat-pasand Pakistanis to vote for Islamic parties when the non-religious parties promise both shariat and roti-kapada aur makaan. They did not need religious parties to give them a religious constitution, one party almost gave them a complete nizam-e-mustafa.

New hope for tourism in swat

Feb 20, 2009

Many pakistanis remeber fondly their travels to swat, green mountain tops with a clear stream meandering through the valley, the summer holiday destination fo rthe many from pak cities.

The fighting over the past few years have decimated the tourism, the elegant hotels are burnt or are empty. Now with the introduction of taliban rule there is hope for the revival of tourism, a lot more than before.

In the cities like islamabad, during eid many throng to the galleries built up so that the children and women can witness the killing of camels. In swat, it will be public beheading, and one can emagine what a spectacular sight that will be. There will be stoning to death as well and children can easily partcipate.

Mullah tahemd sifi has declared that taliban is very in support of tourism in line with sharia an special venues will be built in back drop of the mountains to facilitate sharia compliant tousrim.

Just like sharia compliant banking, it is all matter of promoting it, and swat will be the aorld leader in sharia tourism.

////////////////not from jang////////////

Lady doctor wants sister’s killers arrested
Sunday, February 22, 2009
Bureau report

PESHAWAR: A lady doctor Saturday demanded of the president, prime minister, chief justice of Pakistan, NWFP police chief and chairperson of Human Rights Commission of Pakistan to “bring to the task the killers of her sister.�

Addressing a press conference, Dr Fauzia said that “brutal murder� of her sister, Shazia Shaheen, took place on January 29, 2009.

Shazia was married to one Muhammad Ismail who, according to Dr Fauzia, killed her sister in connivance with other family members. She said that the deceased was a highly educated woman and a bank officer.


/////Helping Dr Fauzia////////

You may be educated in the field of medicine, but you have no clue about paki laws. Take it from me Dr, there will be co criminal case filed against the murderers because of hoodood ordinance, you are not a wali, only the dead ones husband is teh wali. He killed her, that is honour killing and it is not a crime in pakistan.

.... menage a trois +2 ......... hindoos! eat your heart out .... we pakis are obviously having more fun than you can ever imagine

LAHORE: The city police, after raiding a number of brothels, arrested 33 men and 20 women from different areas of the city on Saturday. Sources in the police said special instructions had been given to the police to take stern action against all brothels. Shahdara Police Station SHO Riaz Abbas said they had received information late on Friday night that a man named Bhola was running a brothel in the jurisdiction, adding that he immediately arranged for a raid. He said he found six women and 14 men in compromising positions. He said he arrested all those involved in the activities and registered a first information report against them. The Tibbi City police arrested 14 women and 19 men during a raid. staff report

tahir

"You know nothing so don't put all your four feet in your mouth. Worry about what deviltry you're promoting"

tahir mian is so authoritative. Speaks like a prophet. Does he not?

Does he too retreat to the caves and hears reverberations?

"verily, you are fkcued!!!!"

........... now we know what to do with masadi !

LAHORE: It is permissible to burn the body of a Muslim who died after being bit by a rabid dog, a Dubai cleric said in a fatwa (religious edict) on Saturday.

A private TV channel said doctors at Dubai’s Al-Baraha Hospital had advised against burying the body because they said the virus could harm other people through the soil. The body has not been buried so far.

#280 Posted by tahir

Any more questions?

er.. yes just a couple. Do you still live in that caveman's age? Do you still use the holy stone to clean....as hamidm suggests?

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tahmed writes "bad news for you - those drones are based in pakistan, protected by pakistani troops,..."

So what is there to be proud of in this other than whenever the brown man bows to the white man, tahmed cheers. The bigger thugs are the people who own those drones and their lowly Pakistan Army peons. Those drones serve one function and one function alone, and that of mainstreaming the Taliban and maintaining a critical mass of their support base, that is the timing and social construction through creating "facts on the ground" that feeds the cycle of violence for the bigger thugs, whose lowly peon you are.

Have some goddmaned shame you miserable sellout,

TNITC masadi

A bad news for me is that poor Salma and Abdul are suffering because of darbari ga.dus such as you and the dim wit. You sold there well being and future for few crums because of your hatred of civilizational India.

#313 tahmed32

[And yes, we left behind property which was then taken over by sikhs...and today there are three houses where our ancestral home stood until about 10 years ago]

I don't know about your particular case, but the average Hindu was always MUCH more affluent than the average Muslim - everywhere in the Indian Subcontinent. If you wish to dispute that, just say so, and we can have (hopefully) and objective argument based on documented facts.

[So, if you need to play this hindu nationalist game of demonizing muslims and other minority communities....]

No. Only Muslims. Don't try to hide amongst "other minorities".

[... while pretending to be holier than christ, go talk to someone who doesnt know what happened in 1947.]

What happened in 1947 was that, AS ALWAYS, MUSLIMS STARTED KILLING HINDUS AND SIKHS in the newborn Pakiland FIRST. ONLY AFTER THAT, Sikhs and later Hindus retaliated in India.

If you wish to dispute this, and try to say that nobody knows who started it first, THEN TELL ME SO, so that we can have an objective argument based on documented evidence.

Needless to say, you'll lose BOTH arguments.

cheema sahib: i would be glad to read what you said for its own merit - but it is not what dost mittar sahib said. and now..this being saturday night..i have to go for some life.

Re: # 317; tahmed sahib

I only wish that were true and it can all be swept under the carpet and be put down to 'my confusion' sir ... in any case, if you don't want to read what I wrote in the context of your recent interactions, then just read it on its own merit ... thank you

guru: bad news for you - those drones are based in pakistan, protected by pakistani troops, and used to take out the thugs threatening not just NATO/US but also Pakistani troops in Pakistan.

"well too bad nobody heard of those johnnies...maybe they softly whispered in your ears when they were reincarnated as phantoms...as for Sher Shah"

Ignorance is Golden,

Patil/Patel/Kulkarni are titles. Mentioned even in Dnyneshwari 1200 AD. Dharmashalas and Sarais were built by Ashokas along the GT road. Since for you guys history starts with some Bin guy landed in Sindh you would not hear anything about real India of past or present. Now enjoy the presence of new Bin guy and the drones howering over your head.

cheema sahib: you are obviously confused about what was said. i can spend another 5 minutes summarizing it for you, or you can do me a favor and read the exchange of posts below before commenting on it. then we can talk.

#310 hamidm2

[.... i hate to disagree, but in my household 'indian' is still a dirty word ...... my younger daughter, still starts crying when her older sister calls her an indian because of her 'wheatish' complexion .... i tell her not to worry, the condition will get better as she gets older, but i have my doubts ....... it is difficult to breed out grandpa gopinath's bad genes ..........]

So how do you feel about President Musharraf and his complexion? (I am not even going to mention his "samosa" nose :) ).

Also, what do you think about the "Madrasi" muslims? And the Bangladeshi muslims?

Re: # 314; tahmed sahib

what dost ji said is true though ... in an Islamic government, it is NOT the majority electorate that decides what should/shouldn't be done but what is considered 'just' and 'injust' by a higher (albeit never hear from!) authority ... that is the difference

when you have people uder that spell, they refuse to openly protest against such atrocities (as by the talibs) because in their hearts they are satisfied that these are committed in the name of a 'higher' cause ... much higher than anyone that exists! ... THAT sir is the point

hence the unconditional legitimacy, accepted by the elected governments and the general public alike, of those who bullied people into 'submission to the WILL' by the act of sword in parts of the NWFP

I just wish you (and other like-minded folk) would just wake up to this reality and have the moral courage to call a spade a spade

dost mittar: did you have trouble understanding what i wrote about islam being what muslim say it is?? or did you just ignore it and come back singing your usual tune about how "my islam" (i.e. non-taliban version) is something unique to myself??

Let me help you improve your comprehension: Which parties were elected to power in the last elections in Pakistan? How many votes did the religious parties - let alone the taliban whom you claim represent islam - get??

Please give straight answers to these. Then tell me if I am wrong in saying that even an educated and sane Indian like you is suffering from 1947-itis!!

krishna: "I think there is the Amrita Pritam Singh story of a Muslim family moving into a well-to-do Hindu family's house with their goats and chickens after the Hindus were forced to leave under fear of death by tahmed/urstruly's next of kin."

Well..er..actually, it was my next of kin who were forced to move out of India by sikhs. And my mother whose life was saved (along with a trainful of other muslim families escaping from India to Pakistan) only because of the timely action by a Pakistani army officer who forced the hindu station master at the point of a gun to permit the train to move out of the station rather than wait to be attacked by mobs of sikhs. And yes, we left behind property which was then taken over by sikhs...and today there are three houses where our ancestral home stood until about 10 years ago.

So, if you need to play this hindu nationalist game of demonizing muslims and other minority communities while pretending to be holier than christ, go talk to someone who doesnt know what happened in 1947.

Re: # 310; hamidm sahib

[[....... it is difficult to breed out grandpa gopinath's bad genes .......... ]]

this phenomenon is recognised as a "throw-back" in many parts of the world ... and it does get 'better' with time (in the interim, allah aap ko sabr de ... amen!)

Conversion results in genetic changes ?
A most curious biological phenomenon. ;-)

jayp mian,

.... i hate to disagree, but in my household 'indian' is still a dirty word ...... my younger daughter, still starts crying when her older sister calls her an indian because of her 'wheatish' complexion .... i tell her not to worry, the condition will get better as she gets older, but i have my doubts ....... it is difficult to breed out grandpa gopinath's bad genes ..........

Re: # 304

Hamidm sahib:

".... indian moslems never tire of telling us how good we pakis have it ..."

Herein lies the problem, you have hit the nail. Indian moslems talk about the nightmare. They need to pause to have their Indian dream. Without it they cannot have a fair shake. India is a very hard place, slumdog millionaire did make a point.

Farzana Verseys will need to think and give their time to lead, only then Laddus will back off. Even mother gives more attention to her baby who cries and demands more.

Mother India (understandably a hard concept for Pakistanis) has 1-billion, and she is not Pakistani army. She does not have time to dress up in straws and put dhoti on to go and practice. On the second thought she probably does wear straws and dhoti and goes to railway tracks, and walks with slumdogs.

Zardari offers China access to Pakistan’s warm waters

Sunday, February 22, 2009
WUHAN: President Asif Ali Zardari on Saturday expressed his strongest desire to strengthen the already cordial relationship between Pakistan and China and said China could get access to its ports for trading with the rest of the world.

In a joint interview with local television channels, radio and newspaper, the president said some of the Chinese companies located in central China will find it convenient to trade through the Pakistani ports, which are nearer than their own.

“We will encourage the Chinese companies to come to Pakistan as Pakistan is geostrategically located and provides them access to the rest of the world through our warm waters,� he added.

/////////from jang/////////

Beena,

Here is another article for you, "yellow cloud over pakiland"

After offering itself to the yanks ( cento, seato era) to the sudis during talibanisation, then to the US now, the paki people are offering themselves to the chinese now.

It is sad to be a pakistani now, so humiliating and like most pakis now, when any one asks them from which country they are, typical reaction is " sorry I am from pakistan".

That sorry tells it all about the humiliation of being a paki.

Re: # 246

Considering the extreme sensitivity of muslims about the book, that image was unnecessary.

#304 hamidm2

[.... of course ... and that is why i am glad i am a paki .... indian moslems never tire of telling us how good we pakis have it and how ungrateful we are for a of our own where we can live like human beings ..... i must have heard this refrain a million times from your moslem countrymen: "aap ko pata nahin hum log kis haal mein rehtay hain ... aap logon ko azadi ki qadar nahin hai" ....... that is why i keep on telling you horrible hindoos that you better watch out for your moslems - one of these days they will slit your throat while you are asleep ........... ]

Three points:

1) This still does not refute MY point that your argument about Slumdog Millionaire proving that Hindus are no good, is wrong.

2) Nobody knows better than me the danger posed to us by Muslims. For us Indians it is like carrying a disease that might suddenly become rampant, and kill us from within. This is why I'll never surrender my American passport. Or my children's.

3) On an academic note (useless for the Muslim ears) - before partition (during and before the British rule), there were 3 types of Muslims - a handful of extremely rich Muslims - nawabs etc., a few middle-class muslims, and the huge majority of extremely poor ones. The reason for this is that usually only the very poor were forced to convert because they did not have the means to pay jizya - these made up the majority. The few who converted to obtain better jobs made up the middle class. Of course, there were businessman, traders etc. of all stripes, but that is the general trend.

The reason that majority of Muslims are poor is because that's how they were traditionally - with a history of poverty, ignorance and illiteracy. After the Hindus left Pakistan and Bangladesh, these muslims gleefully stole their property and everything else, and improved their lot overnight. I think there is the Amrita Pritam Singh story of a Muslim family moving into a well-to-do Hindu family's house with their goats and chickens after the Hindus were forced to leave under fear of death by tahmed/urstruly's next of kin.

Re: # 302

tahir mian,

... people like you and urstruly are giving moslems a bad name .... it is time you emerged from your caves and looked around - this is the twenty first century and there is no room for seventh century nonsense cooked up by an illiterate man with the help of an imaginary winged creature ........ why don't you join tahmed and see if you can help him come up with a new and improved version of the book ..... it is time for the reformation and you can be our martin luther ........

Re: # 298

krishna mian,

"Did you notice how the main character from the slum was muslim?"

.... of course ... and that is why i am glad i am a paki .... indian moslems never tire of telling us how good we pakis have it and how ungrateful we are for a of our own where we can live like human beings ..... i must have heard this refrain a million times from your moslem countrymen: "aap ko pata nahin hum log kis haal mein rehtay hain ... aap logon ko azadi ki qadar nahin hai" ....... that is why i keep on telling you horrible hindoos that you better watch out for your moslems - one of these days they will slit your throat while you are asleep ...........

Re: # 294 guru...well too bad nobody heard of those johnnies...maybe they softly whispered in your ears when they were reincarnated as phantoms...as for Sher Shah...he was a learned and wise man of his time.

Re: # 292
Crushed-Na ABCD,

"a country where the emphasis is into studying the koran and on "submission", can never progress."

Concentrate on remaining at ABCD; don't you ever dare cross that line.....

Re: # 286
Ham-damn-thank-you-ma'am,

"i know folks like urstruly and tahir mian are trying to push the arab version of this crazy ideology"

You know nothing so don't put all your four feet in your mouth. Worry about what deviltry you're promoting.

Re: # 289

Hamidm sahib:

"........ you cannot fool us! ..."

Please do not feel bad later when you discover that people across the border are not straws wearing dhotis to fight. Last time in Kargil it resulted, as that ex ISI chief said while having nightmare that the response was so overwhelming. The poor man died last year, as the news said.

hamidm2

What? Cat got your tongue? : )

#297 hamidm2

[krishna mian,

... i have never been to india (and have no desire to) but i have seen slumdog millionaire .... so please don't try to fool us with all this nonsense about how good you hindoos are ..... ]

Did you notice how the main character from the slum was muslim?

Re: # 291

krishna mian,

... i have never been to india (and have no desire to) but i have seen slumdog millionaire .... so please don't try to fool us with all this nonsense about how good you hindoos are .....

#272 hamidm2

[dost-mittar ji,

.... i agree with your assessment of creeping wahabism, but being an optimist i continue to hope that it is a passing phase ..... ]

No. It is a life-sentence. Because of "the book".

Another example of how muslas do their musla-giri:

From Wikipedia:

"All ethnic Malays are considered Muslim (100%) as defined by Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia."

This means that if you are ethnically Malay, and are not Muslim, you are automatically deemed non-ethnic Malay, and therefore lose all rights and privileges.

Ironically, "bhumiputra" is a Sanskrit term. Talk about irony.

Oh, on another example of musla-giri - when the architect of the Petronas Towers, Cesar Pelli, asked the Malayaian authorities what the Petronas Towers to look like - he was told that it should "express the 'culture and heritage of Malaysia' by evoking Islamic arabesques and employing repetitive geometries characteristic of Muslim architecture".

This, in a country that became majority Islamic only recently. Muslas will be Muslas, and will do their Musla-giri - regardless of where in the planet they are. Have you seen chinese muslims in Xinxiang wearing the camel-herder's checkered headdress?

: )

sher Shah Suri was king for five years. He brought from Purbia Indian way of administration to Delhi. Mughals and sultanates before him did not have clue and inclination for disciplined administration. Patwari, Patils/Patels, Kulkarnis, etc was Indian administration...

You may say he introduced Indian administraton to alien Mughals and other Islamic folks.

#290 hamidm2

[.... kashmir does not have anything to do with strategic depth - it is simply an integral part of pakistan that has been occupied by your marauding army ....... let my people go, please! ]

They are free to go ANYTIME. And shouldn't let the door hit them on their way out.

Please organize a muslim-brotherhood-type organization in Pakiland and urge them to simply walk across the border. We hindus will provide the transportation, and some money to help them along.

Instead of talking about it, just DO it!!

Nowhere in the world muslims will be able to create their own wealth unless they can sell raw materials like petroleum (which also has to be discovered by others for them). This is because Islam is averse to free thought and dialogue, and a country where the emphasis is into studying the koran and on "submission", can never progress.

One can take Islamic countries around the world case by case, and check the veracity of this theory.

[#262 hamidm2
pinku mian,
comparing malaysia to gujarat is like comparing mahhattan to the dharavi ... so let's not get carried away with the state of gujrat ..... next you will be comparing india to luxembourg ! ........... you should get out more often

#266 pinku
ok mian hamidm, I have not been to malaysia, so seems i am wrong... ]

pinku-ji,

You are NOT wrong. The people that created the prosperity and were the most prosperous, educated, hard-working and productive in Malayasia were the ethnic Chinese (Buddhist) and the ethnic Indians (Hindus). Also, the prosperity was fueled primarily by FDI from Japan, a non-Muslim country. Later on, the newly-converted muslims (native malays) stole everything from them on the basis of their "bhumiputra" theory.

From Wikipedia:

"During the same period (1980s and the 1990s), the government tried to eradicate poverty with the controversial New Economic Policy (NEP), after the May 13 Incident of racial rioting in 1969.[41] Its main objective was the elimination of the association of race with economic function, and the first five-year plan to begin implementing the NEP was the Second Malaysia Plan. The success or failure of the NEP is the subject of much debate, although it was officially retired in 1990 and replaced by the National Development Policy (NDP). Recently much debate has surfaced once again with regards to the results and relevance of the NEP. Some have argued that the NEP has indeed successfully created a Middle/Upper Class of Malay businessmen and professionals. Despite some improvement in the economic power of Malays in general, the Malaysian government maintains a policy of discrimination that favours ethnic Malays over other races—including preferential treatment in employment, education, scholarships, business, access to cheaper housing and assisted savings.[76] This special treatment has sparked envy and resentment between non-Malays and Malays.

The Chinese control of the locally-owned sector of the country's economy, meanwhile, has been ceded largely in favour of the Bumiputras/Malays in many essential or strategic industries such as petroleum retailing, transportation, agriculture and etc. Majority of professionals per capita are still dominated by the indians in the country nevertheless."

And about their musla-giri:

"Although the Malaysian constitution theoretically guarantees religious freedom, in practice the situation is restricted. Additionally, all non-Muslims who marry a Muslim must renounce their religion and convert to Islam. Meanwhile, non-Muslims experience restrictions in activities such as construction of religious buildings and the celebration of certain religious events in some states.[66][67] Muslims are obliged to follow the decisions of Syariah courts when it comes to matters concerning their religion. The jurisdiction of Syariah court is limited only to Muslims over matters of Faith and Obligations as a Muslim, which includes marriage, inheritance, apostasy, religious conversion, and custody among others. No other criminal or civil offenses are under the jurisdiction of the Syariah courts, which have a similar hierarchy to the Civil Courts. Despite being the supreme courts of the land, the Civil Courts (including the Federal Court, the highest court in Malaysia) in principle cannot overrule any decision made by the Syariah Courts; and presently are reluctant to preside over cases involving Islam in any nature or question or challenge the authority of the Syariah courts. This has caused notable problems, particularly involving civil cases between Muslims and non-Muslims, in which civil courts have ordered non-Muslims to seek recourse from the Syariah Courts."

Re: # 288

anil mian,

.... kashmir does not have anything to do with strategic depth - it is simply an integral part of pakistan that has been occupied by your marauding army ....... let my people go, please!

anil mian,

... you are one devious hindoo! .......the taliban are here today, gone tomorrow ...... but we know who the real enemy is ........ you cannot fool us!

Re: # 286

Precisely Hamidm sahib:

That is why when all the rest are making all the noises, real Pakistanis should get going and fill the room with silence, peace and a bit of selfishness. Isolate themselves and their Pakistan from rest to concentrate on the task. Let those who want to fight go to FATA and Swat. They must resist cross border temptations of strategic depth into Afganistan and Kashmir. Neither of those places would let silence come into the room. Yes, it would be beacuse of LeTs roaming the streets of Pakistan, and not because of Indians crossing across the border.

Re: # 265

Hamidm sahib:

"......... when i was in the pakistan military academy we used straw dummies dressed up in dhotis for bayonet practice ......."

Yahan hi tou mara gaya Pakistan, for thinking that Hindoos wear dhotis to fight and are made of straws. No wonder they go to Kargil and run back in total shock and leave their deads behind.

Please convince them to practice with something real, like Talibans. They may soon take over Pakistan, while the Pakistan army practices with straw and dhoti. Pakistanis who are serious chance would not get any better chance, while its army's attention is on straw and dhoti.

anil mian,

.... actually it is more like 'lipstick on a camel' ..... the fact of the matter is that regardless of what new-age wahabi islamists say, there is no such thing as pure islam ..... i know folks like urstruly and tahir mian are trying to push the arab version of this crazy ideology, but every country and ethnic group has its own version ....... sacrificing virgins to the moon god and mo (pbuhahc) remains the common denominator, but there are all sorts of local rituals and harvest festivals ..... for example, my mother used to celebrate chahar shamba ... now how many mohammedans on this forum know what the hell is chahar shamba? .... while eighty percent of moslems revere the abominable four, the other twenty percent think they are murderers who killed fatima ....... and then there are the people of lahore who think basant is the most important islamic festival ............. go figure!

Re: # 272

"........ it would be nice to walk across the street to have a beer after running around the kaaba seven times ........"

Problem with religions is that its perpetrators think that Hamidm sahibs will be running to cross the street seven times, and after the seventh time they would wonder what is inside that granite rock, which is not in the granite counters of this bar.

Why not let me go around seven more times of this granite counter?

I do not mean to spoil your weekend, but the choice here is binary and select which street you want to go.

Pew,

The constitution preamble you provided clears the air once and for all.

Dost,
"This is why our Pakistani friends who really want a non-islamic state should seek a change in their constitution instead of abusing those who want to implement that constitution."

Yes but they bury their head in sand when you bring this fundamental root of their problems to fore. Its the Taliban who've got it right and want to implement the constitution. As my grandfather Somdev in heaven would say for his decision hundreds of years ago, "Verily we are saved." I wonder what Gopinath would be saying though.

Pinku,
It is not me, but the excellent Martini I had yesterday.
Adios

Pl read

Malay and Bhasa speaking people are more rooted in their culture esp Hindu.

Hamidm Sahib:

Duet to all this noise, I some time wonder if Islam is like what arjun calls "lipstick on a pig", and grandpa gopinath's genes ("teri ma di", thank Dost sahib) are more empowering. If it was all this serious, you guys would have been done making noises, like Iran, and be over with after 60 years. Just think about it, and let me know what you thought.

Personal experience of Indonesia and Malaysia circa 1996 to Y2K as a part owner of GSM operation, Mobitex & Trunk Radio Licence:

Malay and Bhasa speaking people are more rooted in their culture esp Hindu ones. Many of the employees had Sanskrit names besides their official Arabi names. Indian entertainment cuisine and Ramayan-Mhabharat is hugely popular among common Malay and Indonesian. Subterrain is Hindu and below that, local organically grown animist culture. Academia in these countries respected Indians (esp one coming from USA).

Shocked and saddened when visited my anglophied Christian Indonesian secretary's home. Below the red lipstick and tiny miniskirts I saw a mother in utterly destitute situation. The area was probably similar or worse than Dharavi. She had to commute almost three hours hanging on to the bar at the entrance of the crowded bus. Dharavi to CST or Churchgate is 15 minutes ride on local train.

Indonesia was land of legalized corruption. Most of the business and finance was in Chinese and Indian hands. Rulers esp Suharto and his kids valued Indian more than Chinese and wanted them as their partners. Univeristies were very well funded but 1/10th of our TIFRSs, IITs & IIScs in terms of knowledge base and talent pool. Though Islamic common Southeast Asian values a lot civilizational India.

Re: # 276
"By the way, tahir mian, is menses a disease?"

Considering your dark writing skills, it is!

Any more questions?

Re: # 278

dost mittar jee,

.... i share your fears ......... our only hope is that thamed will come out with his new version of the koran that abrogates the constitution of medina ........

hamidm:

I hope that you are right but have my doubts as long as the consitution requires you to do certain things. Never mind Imran, can you guarantee that if Nawaz comes to power, he will not again try to be Ameer-ul-Momineen which he almost did before he was ousted by a dictator?

hamidm:

I don't know about all Muslims but I also think that the Punjabi jois de vivre will overcome taleban. After all, you can't say "teri maaN di" and be wahabi at the same time.

#264 Posted by tahir

By the way, tahir mian, is menses a disease?

Re: # 271

doast mittar ji,

..... you know and i know that there is no way in hell any moslem country will change its constitution to strike out allah mian and his main man mohammad - not egypt,not malaysia, not indonesia and certainly not pakistan ...... once the prophet is out of the bottle it is impossible to put him back ........ turkey is the only possible exception ...

......... the trick is in interpretation and implementation ..... inspite of what it says in the 1973 constitution, liquor and opium were legal in pakistan until bhutto succumbed to the mullahs in 1977 and then zia annointed himself as caliph ...... may their souls burn in hell! ......... and inspite of all the lip service that is paid to islam, pakistan is still a fairly free wheeling society this side of attock ..... the taliban and their apologists like imran khan pose a grave threat, but i am still hopeful that we can keep a lid on this toilet .......

Re: # 265 Hamidm2

I didn't know that you were in the Army. Are you kidding again?

BTW, can we pick up again where we left off on post #210?

#268 Posted by hamidm2 on
pbuh? uh uh?

Re: # 267

dost-mittar ji,

.... i agree with your assessment of creeping wahabism, but being an optimist i continue to hope that it is a passing phase ..... human nature being what it is, people will not tolerate this joyless version of islam for long ...... saudi arabia is the biggest culprit in spreading this insidious ideology - once the house of saud falls, we will be on the path to recovery .... that is why i think bush invaded the wrong country when he went into iraq - the real culprit is next door ........ i would like to see the province of hejaz and mecca and medina turned over to its rightful owner, king abdullah of jordan ........ it would be nice to walk across the street to have a beer after running around the kaaba seven times ........

Maharana:

Yes, it is the constitution that makes all the difference. This is why our Pakistani friends who really want a non-islamic state should seek a change in their constitution instead of abusing those who want to implement that constitution.

We can see how the compulsions of a consitutional democracy works in India. The latest is the strange case of Narendra Modi appointing the first Muslim DG of Police in Gujarat - yes, the same Modi who presided over the killings of almost two thousand Muslims in 2002.

Re: # 255 Maharana to Tahmed #247

I'll cut to the chase:

The sovereignty of the entire universe according to the Pakistan Constitution belongs to 'Allah'. According to the Indian Constitution (and the American), the sovereignty belongs to the 'people'. That is the bottom line:

The Pakistan Constitution (1973) states in the preamble:

"Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;

And whereas it is the will of the people of Pakistan to establish an order :-

Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;

Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed;

Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;


By contrast, the Indian Constitution begins with:

"WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly
resolved to constitute India into a [SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and to secure to all its citizens:....
...IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twentysixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION.

The implication is clear: The Pakistan Constitution implies sovereignty of Allah. The Indian Constitution clearly states that the people are sovereign.

#265 Posted by hamidm2 on February 21, 2009 6:33:02 am

now if indian kashmir was "occupied" by straw figures, you all would be in a position to "liberate" it...

unfortunately for you inbred retards, the paki army is only capable of fighting straw figures and it's own people...

Re: # 266

pinku,

... i have one word for you: "uh?" ..... or as dost mittar would say, "eh?"

hamidm:

Your disagreement is with tahmed, not me. But I do believe that the post-war policies of the United States, alongwith the riches of the petrodollars fed Saudis have turned moderate Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia on the path towards wahabism. In fact, I do agree somewhat with tahmed that most Muslims are not wahabis by nature, but when the slogan of "Islam khatre mein" is raised, the powerful pull of political Islam overwhelms all other instincts.

#262 Posted by hamidm2 on

ok mian hamidm, I have not been to malaysia, so seems i am wrong... it may be a far better place than any in India in one or more ways?... but as such you are not telling pakistanis that over 30% non muslims have created lot of wealth in malaysia and creating good economy... while pakistanis need only muslims??

Malaysia and Indonesia got good investment from Japan because first they all have chinese faces and second they were close to chinese looking japan which needed to invest money.... Pakistanis do not have chinese looking faces and though china is next door to them (so you can forget India), china will still not be able to invest seriously in a country who does not look chinese and are muslims as well...

only option left is Arabs, and you know what they invest into? they need as many mos as the dollars they invest...., taliban is their investment....

Re: # 263

pepe,

.... that might be the official motto, but the real one is "Death to the Hindoo!" ......... when i was in the pakistan military academy we used straw dummies dressed up in dhotis for bayonet practice ....... we would charge the hindoos shouting 'allah hu akbar' and then slice their heads off ! ..... it was a rush ! ..... afterwards we would smoke cigarettes and dream about killing a real hindoo ....... unfortunately i didn't stay in the army long enough to gather a bodi or two ..... it is one of my deepest regrets in life .......

Re: # 239
Menses,

"Twisting the fact is exactly what you have been doing for the last 1400 years"

When will you stop bleeding menses; its been 1400 years already?

Re: # 232 Dost

Do you know what the OFFICIAL Pakistan Army motto is? This is not a well know fact, but here it is:

"Iman, Taqwa, JIHAD fi Sabilillah". Translated into English, it means "Faith, Piety, to JIHAD in the path of Allah!

Re: # 261

pinku mian,

comparing malaysia to gujarat is like comparing mahhattan to the dharavi ... so let's not get carried away with the state of gujrat ..... next you will be comparing india to luxembourg ! ........... you should get out more often

#259 Posted by hamidm2 on

mian hamidm,
gujrat alone contributes more gdp to india than malaysia or indonesia... those bhumiputras (muslims) of malaysia and muslims of indonesia are not in state of denials as pakistanis are, they understand and accept facts more easily... they have less numbers of muhamads in them


Arabs are surviving because of daily flow of billions of petro dollars, else you would have had only sand in arab by now.. if pakistan had that kind of petro money, mecca and medina would have shifted to pakistan by now...

Re: # 259

dost ji,

.... and oh by the way, turkey is also on the same slippery road to an 'islamic' state ........... it is the nature of the beast, which in this case is a camel ....... the foundation for this nonsense was laid down by mo of mecca when he founded the state of medina and the abominable four who followed in his footsteps ........... that is why i always say: verily, we are fckued !

Re: # 252

dost mittar ji,

..... i hope you realize that the constitutions of all moslem states, with the exception of turkey, designate islam as the state religion and in some form or fashion recognize the koran and sunnah as the basis of law making .......

...... even malaysia, which is a far better country than india in all respects, grants special bumiputra to malays who by definition have to to be born moslems ...... a bania remains a bania even if he converts! ..... similarly the indonesian state is clearly based on belief in the one and only moon god ........ and let's not even talk about iran and the arab states that actually practice shariah ......

....... so pakistan, as a state inhabited by moslems, is no different than the other 57 or 58 islamic states ........ our only misfortune is that we live next to a hindoo state that claims to be secular ..........

I think that there is wishful omission among the Tahmeds of the basic reality that shariat based laws are not simply retarding the drive towards modernity and universal human rights as the foundation of islamic societies. The practicalities as exhibited, whether Algeria, Afghanistan, Gaza, Iran or now Pakistan are different

#255 Posted by Maharana on
good job maharana, but you are trying to disturb hamidm's trance... he doesn't want to live at ground floor where all kind fo floods can disturb him easily.... especially the descendants of horrible hindus..:-) In his next reincarnation he will be a hindu, so he doesn't have to suffer this conflict of interest of his ancestors....

#248 Posted by tahmed32 on
tahmed bhai, Indians have tonnes of well meaning people but in pakistan almost everybody is willing to fight for liberation of kashmir and palestine, as if they know what liberation is...or better who they are.... most indians, and especially well meaning ones are disappointed to see that even the educated and outwardly secular class of people in pakistan go with the herd of fanatics when it comes to important ideas... majority of pakistan wants pakistan to be an islamic state even if they have to have a million year debate to explain what islam is (explaining just one book:-))...
so unfortunatley for majority on your side Islam is more important than world or truths and hence we end up talking about Islam.. and with islam comes the grand ego and conflicts with truth..

Tahmed # 247,

"But you provide the wrong answer - the difference is not between India and Pakistan (or hinduism and islam) in this regard. The difference is between societies government the Rule of Law as currently understood across the world and societies governed by the Daaivine of Kings (or khalifas, or rajas or whatever)."

The difference is precisely between India and Pakstan for the very reason I stated in my post. One derives its constitution from the people and the other from Quran. The difference is between all the other secular constitutions of the world who provide the same right to individual irrespective of their religion and nations,like Saudi. Where do the divine khalifas get their rights from? Do not bury your head in the sand. Pakistan is in peril because of mard-e-murrabaas like you and hamid who avoided the difficult questions and hoped that the contracditions in pakistan will fadeaway. Well they are coming back with a vengeance and more sharpness dividing your society and fragmenting the nation. Yet you choose to ignore this completely and naively believe that it will be alright.

Second, do not belittle the reasons for the Indian constitution. If the reason was the british, you too would have had a similar secular framework in place. Thanks be to the generation of Indians who were infused with an idealism to bring their people in a modern age and rid themselves of the previous mistakes. If you knew antyhing about the indian constituion, you would have remarked bout the greatness of the founding fathers of India and their vision for a society. Remember that the authors of the constitution openly remarked that they were inspired by the American, French and British constitutions. Not by any religion, let alone their own. Even today, India is surrounded by commies, dictators and islamists withstnding it all due to the glue provided by the Indian constitution.
One look at the flags of india and pakistan tells us all which one is dependent upon religion and and which is not.


Hamid,
I too have the hangover from the Martinis last night. But I guess the heeng does something to us horrible hindoos to get us up on our feet that cannot be understood by the puki pakis.


Adios

tahmed #248:

We will always have our differences wrt what Islam means to most Muslims and it is not just me, you are almost universally held at chowk as touting some strange religion which you insist on calling Islam - even though I personally like your religion.

Unlike you, I do not regard taleban as evil or their version of Islam as evil. I think that people are hypocritical when they support democracy but do not like when they result in the election of a Hamaz in Palestine or the Islamists in Algeria or even in Turkey. Yes, no one has voted for taleban in Swat but they did vote for people who had in the past agreed to implement sharia.

As for comparing support of taleban to suttee, do you know of any Hindu or Sikh religious or political leader who supports it? On the other hand, there is good evidence that a large number of Pakisanis, maybe even a majority, supported those who were in Lal Masjid.

And could you please tell me how many lawyers or political parties have taken out processions in Pakistan against the clause in the constitution in support of sharia? If you cannot, then my statement that Pakistanis by and large support sharia (or shariat as the awaam call it) stands, even if you don't like to accept that fact.

#249 Posted by tahmed32

"Pardaisi #230 You must be the only Indian I can recall on chowk who actually spoke out against the obviously rabid arjun the 48th. A refreshing change on the usual-usual on chowk."

Pardaisi sahib, did he humiliate you by calling you Indian?

Maharana#234:

Jinnah did not cheat aam musalmaan. Unlike some mohajirs who just wanted some plum jobs in a new state, they knew exactly the implications of Pakistan ka matlab kya despite the famous August 11 speech; btw, very few people were aware of that speech for a long time even in Pakistan.

hamidm: praise the Lord and pass the ammo!!

tahmed mian,

.... your valiant struggle against this horde of hate spewing horrible hindoos proves that one muslim equaals ten kafirs! ......... singlehandedly you are defending islam against the onslaught by the progeny of syphilitic kali and the rabid monkey king ...... shabash, naujawan! ..... you keep on slaying the many headed monsters and they keep on coming back - how many incarnations does a hindoo have? .... i thought they were allowed seven after which they ended up as a hamburger ....

...... keep on fighting the good fight - i am right behind you .... if i did't have a bad hangover, i would show these veggie eating hell dwellers from the wrong side of the border ....... ya allah, hindoo ko gharat kar aur muslmanon ko surkh rooh kar .... ameen !

Pardaisi #230 You must be the only Indian I can recall on chowk who actually spoke out against the obviously rabid arjun the 48th. A refreshing change on the usual-usual on chowk.

Dost Mittar: I am disappointed at the spite against Pakistan that even a mature and well-meaning Indian like yourself holds. No sir - despite your claims that the mindsets of the most ill-educated and criminal elements in muslim society (i.e. the taliban) represetn Islam, the fact is that Islam is what muslims - through democratic processes - say it is.

While your absurd argument has been repeatedly presented by other Indians as well - why dont you then practice what you preach and apply it to sikhism and hinduism as well. Thus, hindus can start by reviving suttee (which the evil British ended), ensuring that untouchables know their place by pouring lead in the ears of any untouchable going to school, and so forth??

Maharana #223 You ask the key question, i.e. WHO creates the law? But you provide the wrong answer - the difference is not between India and Pakistan (or hinduism and islam) in this regard. The difference is between societies government the Rule of Law as currently understood across the world and societies governed by the Divine Right of Kings (or khalifas, or rajas or whatever).

The concept of the Rule of Law (which includes a constitution, checks and balances to individual power as well as to the different arms of government, basic rights, and due process as its major components) in the subcontinent is the legacy of the British. Not of any king, or traditional society (hindu or muslim) in India.

Once we get this clear, then my point below about civil society (the standard bearers of the Rule of Law) being alive and well in Pakistan despite repeated assaults on the Rule of Law by rogue generals in Pakistan.

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where's capt clueless at? after 9/11, during the t-shirt with paki flag days, he told us pakiland was on it's way to economic superpowerdom...not only that, with uncle sam's wind in it's back, pakiland would be able to use the "militants" to liberate indian kashmir...



External debt surges to $50.85 billion

By Mushfiq Ahmad

KARACHI: Pakistan’s external debt and liabilities surged to $50.85 billion during the second quarter of current fiscal year from $45.50 billion, according to official data.

The main contributor to this rise in foreign debt was $3.1 billion obtained from International Monetary Fund in November.

Debt owed to IMF rose from $1.239 billion to $4.352 billion during this period.

Foreign debt and liabilities have risen by $15.01 billion during last three and a half years from $35.834 billion at the end of June 2005.

Economists say the annual debt payments would increase as a result of this surge in external debt and liabilities. They say the actual cause of concern would be the annual debt payments that the country would have to make.

This sharp increase in external debt and liabilities shows that the country has failed to get rid of the whooping debt trap despite the favourable conditions that it had following the 9/11 incidents in the United States and despite the assistance it has extended to the US in its “war on terror�.

Advisor to government on finance Shaukat Tareen recently stated that government would be seeking $4.5 billion more funds from IMF in near future. This would push the foreign debt further up.

Re: # 226 guru...bending, stretching facts...well whatever gets your goat...so if it makes you happy to say that the muslims ruled only for about 100 not a 1000 years, and over an area so small you can not even put your finger on it in map for fear of hiding it underneath your finger so be it...eventually you can write a book on this premise and be happy...as for Sher Shah...well he was only a king not an angel or God...generally the good he did far out weighed the bad...his justice for everyone was exemplary and swift...he introduced the rupee...thanedars, patwari's...a superb and efficient postal system...made serai's for travellers...made the GT Road...and from all of this hindus and muslims facilitated alike...Hamayun, his enemy called him Teacher of Kings...mughals continued his system and so did the Brits after them, and now the Indis and Pakis...

Obama widening missile strikes inside Pak: Report
21 Feb 2009, 1107 hrs IST, IANS
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW YORK: The Obama administration has expanded the covert war run by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) inside Pakistan by attacking a
militant network seeking to topple the Pakistani government, the New York Times reported on Saturday.

Two missile strikes over the last week, on training camps run by Baitullah Mehsud, represent a broadening of the American campaign inside Pakistan, which has been largely carried out by drone aircraft, the influential US daily said in a report from Washington.

////////////from jang/////////

Beena,

here is the next topic for you..drones move to pakiland/

In another year, here is another topic for you, daisy cutters in pakiland.

Good to see that obama is correcting the stupidity of collin powel. At last the Us is also behaving in responsible way, respecting religions. A jihadi seeks death, at last it is being delivered at his door step, and that is a great respect for the religion that creates the jiahdis..

Beena,

What should be of your concern now is the paki military cloud over pakiland. Clearly there is division between zardari and isi on the swat deal/ The US is going to support zardari in the fundings, no more money for the military, this is going to upset the paki military. Another military take over is not very far.

Clearly the paki military is supporting the taliban, it is only the poor zardari who is against the, Even Gilani is with the military.

Beena, read my posts when there was so much of excitement about paki elections. Nothing changed and the increase of taliban is as I said.

Swat: signs that inspire hope
Saturday, February 21, 2009
by Rahimullah Yusufzai

The writer is resident editor of The News in Peshawar

Maulana Sufi Mohammad has once again been tasked to perform a familiar role. He is trying to persuade militants in Swat to drop their guns and go home. His argument is that the government had accepted his demand for enforcement of Shariah, or Islamic law, and there was now no point in continuing the armed struggle that has turned Pakistan's most beautiful and greenest valley into a battlefield.

//from jang of today////////////////

The poor sufi, he has no clue about the political reality, teh sufi has not heard of the strategic depth, less certainly about isi. Take it from me sufi, you may have some achievements in the past, this time in all possibility, you will be killed. These are isi backed fighters, and they will not listen to you.

#237 Posted by tahir

You must be arriving at this unique understanding on the basis of 1971 and 1998.

Thank your stars that these 'horrible hindooooos' were vegetarian.

"Probably what YOURS TRULY meant was that the Pak Army will eat up haraam-khors alive, which in that case is...you guessed it correct!"

Twisting the fact is exactly what you have been doing for the last 1400 years.

Beena apa, aap bhi to kuch boliaye!!

Re: # 197
'We are proud of Indian Army while Pakis call their army, a haramkhor army.'

Probably what YOURS TRULY meant was that the Pak Army will eat up haraam-khors alive, which in that case is...you guessed it correct!

Re: # 228
'But Zum-Zum need to be local Ganga'

Dirty Ganga images, that's what you've asked for? Soon you will have your wish come true.

Re: # 229
Half-guru,
What are you attemtping to prove by quoting the Talmud? There's a death penalty on just reading it!

The riba-consuming rabbis, the perverted priests, the impious pundits, and the mad mullahs have all been warned in the Qur'an! Many persist even today in either twisting God's message (to the entire mankind) or hiding parts of it to mislead humanity.

Get it?

Dost # 233,
I wasn't aware of that clause in the Pakistani Constitution. I wonder what the pretense about secularism and jinnah is about then.
Now I think, Jinnah betrayed the indian muslims, educated pakis and the islamists all at the same time. None of them got what they wanted.
Adios

What's the big deal?

Article 227(1) of the Pakistani constitution reads, "All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and sunna". So, why is it wrong for the taleban or any other organization to demand that the Pakistani state implement its constitution?

Pakistani awaam and political parties have, to my knowledge, never demanded that this clause be removed from the constitution. Nor do I remember too many Pakitani chowkies demanding its repeal. So, as they say in the Mohajirland, Ab pachhtai kya hoat jab chirhiya chug gayee khet?

"Everyone knew that the attackers came from Pakistan," she added. "What was the point of denying it for so long?"

Everyone knew that Dawood Ibrahim was/is in Pakistan. What was the point in denying it?

Everyone knew that the killer of Daniel Pearl, Omar Sheikh, was shielded by the army brigadier.What was the point in denying it?

Everyone knew that AQ Khan was not alone in illegal nuclear deals. What was the point in denying it?

Everyone knows that the ISI has been shielding and supporting the Taleban. What is the point in denying it?

Everyone knows that the Pakistani awaam love shariat. What is the point in denying it? (This is for my dear friend, Tahmed saheb:))

The point, my dear friends, is that the ISI is not a rogue agency but a critical organ of the most powerful pillar of the Pakistani state, its army, and all lies are justified to protect it from being exposed.

"Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism and Slavery"

by MA Khan


Released last week

MA Khan’s Preface

I was born and brought up in a conservative Muslim society. After graduating in India, I moved to the West for furthering my education. Despite my conservative Muslim background, I grew up with a liberal outlook. In my school and university days, my closest friends were Hindus and Sikhs: I felt more comfortable with them as they were more liberal, easy-going and humble with fewer religious scruples. I had wholly given up religious rituals by the time I completed my university studies: they just didn’t attract me.

When 9/11 occurred, I had lived in a liberal society for over a decade. I had become consciously convinced that religious rituals—prayers, fasting, pilgrimage—were all meaningless. I should be rewarded, I felt, for working hard, and intelligently, not for aping some wasteful rituals, which brings good to nobody. Non-Muslims were my best friends; shocking my Muslim peers, I ate haraam (prohibited) foods, drank alcohol (in moderation).

Despite the kind of a liberal person I had become, let me be honest that I was not excluded from those Muslims who felt that the 9/11 attacks were justified, although I felt those perished in it died undeserving deaths. Muslim societies universally portray America as a mortal enemy of Islam, particularly for its stance on the Israel-Palestine conflict. America’s mindless support for Israel has been causing terrible oppression and untold sufferings to Palestinian Muslims. There was, undoubtedly, an overriding sense of justification for the 9/11 attacks amongst Muslims; it gave the unjust superpower a bloody nose: I, so little a Muslim, thought that way too.

Weird as it may sound, I still believed in Islam. I thought the terrorists, acting in the name of Islam, were misguided. After 9/11, I slowly started reading about Islam: Quran, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad’s biographies; I hadn’t read them in the thirty-five years of my life. I was shocked. I had been told all my life that Prophet Muhammad was the ideal human being: most merciful and just; that Islam is the most peaceful religion; and I believed it. But the Quran reads like a manifesto of open-ended war against non-Muslims for converting them or for subjugating them into horribly degraded dhimmi subjects. In his prophetic career, especially during the critical last ten years, Prophet Muhammad was anything but what a peace-loving, merciful and just person stands for.

My curiosity grew. Over the past years, I have done extensively research on Islamic theology as well as on Islamic history: from Prophet Muhammad to modern times. It has been a harrowing tale of forced conversion, brutal imperialism and devastating slavery. It’s a saga of great human tragedy—all in the name of Islamic holy war or Jihad, the foundational creed of Islam. This tragic tale is the subject of this book.
Peek inside

Obviously, there is a great deal of disagreement or denial about this extremist discourse of Jihad.

Yet, it is undeniable that, out of misconception or not, the violent Islamist groups—with their unquestioned belief that they are fighting in the cause of Allah—will continue unleashing violence and terrorism against innocent men, women and children in the years and decades to come, causing incalculable damage and destruction to human life and society. Indisputably, Muslims are now a substantial and established group in almost every nation in the world. Due to high birth-rates amongst Muslims, their continued influx from the overpopulated Islamic world and decline of the native population, they may become, according to current demographic trends, the dominant religious group in many Western countries by the middle of this century. If the current tide of ascendant violent radicalism continues to thrive amongst Muslims, the stability of the tolerant, civilized world may face peril in the not-too-distant future. To secure the stability of the modernist, secular-democratic and progressive future of the world, nations must work unitedly for countering the ideology and activities of these radical Islamist groups, using both military and ideological means.

As violent Islamists wreak havoc around the world, more so in Islamic countries, understanding the ‘true meaning’ of Jihad, their central cause, is of central importance for both Muslims and non-Muslims in order to devise effective counter-measures against them. Without understanding what Jihad truly means, it is impossible for authorities and the people to devise effective remedies against the growing violent trend in the name of Jihad amongst Muslims.

This book is a small effort to give readers an idea of what Jihad truly means. It goes through the life of Prophet Muhammad as he progressively received revelation from the Islamic God (Allah) as contained in the Muslim holy book, the Quran. It will examine when and under what circumstances, Allah introduced the concept of Jihad into Islamic doctrines. It will demonstrate—based on the Quran, authentic prophetic traditions, and original biographies of Prophet Muhammad—how the Prophet of Islam had applied the doctrine of Jihad as he founded the Islamic creed during the last twenty-three years of his life (610–632 CE). Having thus made a sense of the religious foundation and prophetic model of Jihad, it will examine how this prototypical model of Jihad was perpetuated by Muslims through the ages of Islamic domination.

It is worth noting beforehand that, in putting Allah’s doctrine of Jihad into practice at the birth of Islam, Prophet Muhammad had established three major models of Jihadi actions:

1.

Use of violence for the propagation of Islam,
2.

Islamic imperialism,
3.

Islamic slavery

The historical accounts of these legacies of Jihad will be discussed in separate chapters in this book.

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Whoever destroys a single life is as guilty as though he has destroyed the whole world; and whoever rescues a single life earns as much merit as though he had rescued the entire world.
—Sanhedrin 37:a
Talmud


Nothing in the 7th century caveWani or the voice of the cave was divine or original. Does this look familiar to something in the 7th century book?

The mental make up of most of middle-class and up Bakis is this:

Our ancestors did darbari g.ndugiri to keep the jahagir and darbari contracts, converted and changed names from Ram to Rahman, now respect, prestige, power and money is our birth right ..its our entitlement. That is why dracull-e-Azam asks for more than 51% stake in governing India when he knew that Muslim population was 25%.

Solution is complete anihilation of political Islam. After that rest of Abrahmic ga.dugiri not only from India but also from Africa and Americas. India, China and new USA will achieve this for the betterment of humanity. Common American is also coming to this understanding. North America is fertile ground for seeds of new consciousness. India needs to fix the democracy so that

-every issue such as common civil code is decided by popular vote or refrendum.
- an elected representative have to have more than 50% popular vote
-voting needs to be made compulasory..put jiziya on who do not vote.
- all election and canvasing related expenses need to be bored by election commission...not a dime should be spent from private pocket.

Once this is done Arabization/Romanization of India will stop. Spiritual and other good things of Islam and Christanity can be inculcated. But Zum-Zum need to be local Ganga, Godavari or Kaveri and TIFR/IIT Mumbai the new Vatican. Science and technology also needs to be localized, devnagarized.

Re: # 192Masadi sahib:

You are so predictable that I can almost write your unintelligent responses.

Those in Pakistan whom you claim to be responsible include YOU, because you were born into elites and remain into elites. Although you may like to act differently, all such acts are fake, and many can see this fakeness through your facade.

You are merely trying to use an alternative approach to regain your elite status, because you failed quite miserably, even after gaining Amrika return title. You are merely misguiding people. Just as leaders in Soviet Union were doping and misguiding, the reality eventually hit them hard.

The only difference is that you do not have power, whereas they had the power, and that you want to take people back to 7th century theology and combine it with Mills.

The very fact that you call people jamadar etc. means that you regard jamadars as someone lower than yourself and your elite status. This speaks volumes of your true beliefs and contradictions in you and in the nonsense you spew.

You have no respect for dignity of labor muck like feudal and elites in that part of the world. Please fist practice what you preach. There is no substance in the jingoism and high falutin nonsense you use.

Regarding entrepreneurism, I had recommended you to learn something from the Chabriwala in Gujranwala. I am certain you are blind to not see or deaf to not hear that he provides all of it plus more to his family. Guess what he did not go to the Buckle of Bible College, and neither is he an Amrika Return. Without any doubt I can say that even in Pakistan entrepreneurs have created more jobs.

Confused persons like you cannot see it, because they cannot see the entrepreneur in that chabriwala, or in that shopkeeper, or repair shopowner. You probably see people working there as jamadars, chaprasi, kanjars, because you have no respect for the dignity of labor. Therefore, people like you remain stuck in their interpretations of 7th century message, Mills or whosoever is their proverbial God.

Please get real, Masadi sahib. You cannot come up with determinants to define discrimination in Pakistani society, and want to apply the one you learned in buckle of Bible Belt College and from a book by Mills. This is what you are peddling in Pakistan to sugar quote your theology. You still have not produced proof positive of Allah’s or God’s existence, that you claim you have.

There is not point blaming others when problem can best be described as “Chirag Tale Andhera�. Although I cannot imagine you as a Chirag, so please do not see it as a compliment.

Liitle bit about Sher Shah Suri:
"
Sher Khan attacked the fort of the Rajput ruler Puran Mal. After it became apparent that defending the fort would be too tough, Puran Mal agreed to surrender the fort on the condition that his troops, their wives and children, be allowed to leave unmolested. Sher Khan agreed. But as Puran Mal and his family were leaving the fort they were attacked by Sher Khan's Pashtun tribe's men.

Because the king of Bihar had conflicts with Bengal he send Sher Shah to handle that for him. In early 1539 he conquered Bengal and, through clever deception, the Rohtas stronghold southwest of Bengal. Nevertheless, the battle demanded ca. 15000 and more slaughtered civilian lives beside of the hostile soldiers. At the Battle of Chausa on June 26, 1539,

"

Look at the wiki on him and esp the map of Mughal/Suri kingdom circa 1545. It is a 100 mile corridor along the GT road upto Delhi. Today it's not even 2045 ie 500 years. If you check Bahamanis in south who ruled small pockets of land for less than 30 years continiously. These were mercniaries or at best traders like British. Optimistic estimate is of 150 years of Islamic rule over India. Most of the conversion is because of:

1. because of threat of sworde and rapacious attacks ... not much different from how the Sawatis are today giving in. Most of the Sufis were basically tools in the imperialistic agenda of Arabization ... not very different from Carter going to Iraq for human-rights after all the oil wells were secured.

2. economic one for trade related eg Moradabad, Bhivandi etc

3. darbari ga.dugiri by sold out rajputs and Khakars.

If it was total Islamic rule la Bakiland the result would have been not so different from Baki land ie 18% non-Ahmedi non-Muslims in 1948 got decimated to 2% in less than 60 years.

Taliban pose a danger to US, Pak, India: Zardari
20 Feb 2009, 1310 hrs IST, PTI
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
WASHINGTON: Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has acknowledged that Taliban, with whom his government reached a truce deal in the restive Swat
valley days ago, are "murderous thugs and militants" who "pose a danger to Pakistan, the US and India".

US Special Representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, who is just back from Pakistan, told CNN here: "He (Zardari) doesn't disagree that the people who are running Swat now are murderous thugs and militants and they pose a danger not only to Pakistan, but to the United States and India".

///////////////////////

Kiyani where are you...no one can tolerate a president like this.

#223 Posted by Maharana on
Excellent, that is the difference.

Tahmed # 218,

'the "glue" that holds people together is the rule of law, I think."

A fundamental question arises if the glue is the rule of law. Who creates or hands down this law- Humans by their constituion or God via Abraham. If it were just the rule of law, then Saudi arab is the best. But when you look at what are those laws and if they can be changed for the betterment, you come up with the fundamental idea splitting the world in two groups. One who believe that these laws are man made and should be /can be changed and others who think laws are only made by God and are immutable.
This is the glue I and Pew are talking about that differentiates India and Pakistan. Which is why I asked Hamid about the label of the glue used in Pakistan. When Jinnah created a nation opposed to India that is held by "man made" glue he willingly or unwittingly chose "God made" glue. The brilliant lawyer's sword of argument finally cut its own idea and unwillingly deceived a large section of people. You cannot wish away the illetrate islamists in your country for this reason. They understood jinnah's choice of glue better than the educated ones did. Ironically the NWFP was largely follower of the fascist, bigoted Gandhi (in your educated elite's language) who did not want to create a separate nation based on Jinnah's glue. They understood it then and understand it now that the glue in Pakistan is "god made" and hence no question of going back on it.
Adios

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Re: # 217 Tahmed

You contradict yourself when you say, 'If the aim is the well-being and happiness of the individual (not some ideological -ism ...' and then go on to say, '...Pakistan ...second to none in the world when it comes to fighting for the basic rights of the individual'.

I understand that 'Pakistan Ideology' and 'Pakistaniyat' are well enshrined principles that every school child in Pakistan is taught. Jinnah's TNT has been proven to be nothing but, 'some other pseudo-religious or political mumbo-jumbo' as you put it. Both are exclusionary and not inclusionary and do not aim for the well-being and happiness of ALL individuals, but just a few (in this case Muslims). I would not blame only the 'tinpot generals, nad mullahs, and hamidm'. The problem started with Jinnah's vision (or lack of it).

tahmed,

Don't get distracted; please continue to enlighten horrible hindus on biological conceptions of their forefathers ... its good to see you defend ummah's sanctity the way you know best ...

... then tell us all over again how islam is misunderstood (keep your prozac prescription handy) ...

sattar#214 Look - I asked one of the horrible hindoos to write you a mercy post. Does that mean nothing to you???

Maharana: the "glue" that holds people together is the rule of law, I think. Otherwise, they are held together by the stick, not by any common interest. Has India done better than Pakistan in this area? Absolutely. But you need to look at the underlying causes for this - it is not that the Pakistani people are lacking in anything. It is because our rogue generals have never understood this simple point. But, as I say below, there is every hope that the civil society (or at least the thin red line of lawyers, journalists, human rights acitivists) who understand this will prevail over time as their number grow.

#213 Pew Research: If the aim is the well-being and happiness of the individual (not some ideological -ism or or some Great Power aspirations or some other pseudo-religious or political mumbo-jumbo), then any political structure that ensures the basic rights of the individual (including the right to be left alone and not forced to conform to the majoriy), political stability and economic progress is fine with me. If Pakistan fails to deliver on this, then I will be the first to (sadly) say we need some other approach.

But - tinpot generals, nad mullahs, and hamidm notwithstanding - civil society is alive and well in Pakistan and second to none in the world when it comes to fighting for the basic rights of the individual. So - it aint over yet. And Pakistan has better days ahead, I am confident.

Tahmed,
"what is sacred about state boundries?"
I think the glue holding the people inside them together.
Take the glue in the US or Europe for example. Now if the glue prescribed in India is seriously implemented to the hilt, I have a feeling even the Puki Pakis (I am forced to revert to hamid's idea of making fun by calling names) will consider the state inside the indian boundary as sacred.
Adios

nemscis: #212 is my attempt at being humorous. So please dont start quoting it seriously like you were doing with my comment on Swat being better than India.

btw, come to think of it, once the taliban are neutralized in Swat (as they will be, rest assured), Swat is one of the most beautiful places on this planet. So be sure to visit it someday.

tahmed,

Don’t worry about the rest of us … please continue your discussion with the horrible hindus regarding which demographic group was biologically conceived under what circumstances, ages ago …

Not only would it teach them hinuds a lesson in history, it is also a discussion befitting your mindset. It is good to have you protect the honor and sanctity of the ummah … no, really …

Re: # 211 Tahmed

"...i think both bangladeshis and pakistanis are better off as separate nations. ..."

BUT, that was not the prevailing viewpoint in '47 when it was predicted that they would be BETTER off together AND separate from rest of India. And just as this viewpoint was wrong then, so it is wrong today. I submit that the politics has been behind geography in both cases. In the case of Bangladesh: jute-producing areas cut-off from jute mills of Calcutta and the markets of India, to name just one political barrier. Today, an estimated 20 million illegal Bangladeshis live in India. What does that tell us?
I predict that as rising sea levels inundated more of coastal Bangladesh squeezing more people in a smaller land area, the pressure on illegal immigration will grow.

In the case of Pakistan: the Indus and Gangetic river valleys form the natural geographical trade route, leading to eminence of cities like Delhi and Lahore that straddle it. Partition has sucked the oxygen out of this trade, leaving an impoverished Pakistan to defend the Frontier that more powerful Indian empires (British, Mughal) found hard to defend. Time will tell the burden that Pakistan has to bear.

I will not dwell on the costs to India since you will not be persuaded by any of them.

Hamidm: You are embarrassing me with your superficial analysis of the situation ("glue holding nations together" and stuff like that). Please provide more insightful,in-depth and holistic analyses of the situation in future.

maharana: what is sacred about state boundries? i think both bangladeshis and pakistanis are better off as separate nations. And when i used to go to bengal, it seemed there were no more hard feelings either like the ones i used to see from bengali students in Lahore prior to 1971.

Re: # 203 Hamidm2

".... if it wasn't for the glue of hindooism, india would break up into many countries like europe (actually, more like africa)...."

Is so, then why is all of Indian history (including the pre-Islamic one) replete with warring kingdoms? And why is Nepal independent? With the exception of the Mauryan and the Gupta empires, most of pre-Islamic India was never a cohesive political unit. Why not accept the constitutional framework of modern India as a more plausible explanation for the current stability? Why not accept the notion that 5000 years of internal divisions has left India vulnerable to external threats and the modern constitution gives everyone some measure of autonomy while providing for collective security? Perhaps, this is the reason why 'an indian punjabi and a madrasi' find something in common (BTW, 'madrasi' is fast becoming a slur, and so I assume, you use it deliberately!).

And, pray, what do you have MORE in common with a 'frenchman than a madrasi! .... and tamilians?'. Before you respond, weigh the costs/benefits in light of the situation in the Subcontinent.

AND, if the 'hindoo' glue is so good, should the 'Islamic' brand in Pakistan not have been equally good? You don't need to respond to this - I state this simply to prove the point that (i) India is not held together by a 'religious' glue, and (ii) 'religious' glues are not good enough - Exhibit A is Pakistan.

Flatiron: damn! i thought they made the glue from holy cows.

PS: please address a mercy post to sattar2. i will owe you one for that.

Here you guys go again … mocking islam and stuff. None of it is bad, but only a little misunderstood. Just ask tahmed ...

… and stop ridiculing sahib. He is engaged in the serious exercise of “worrying about the future of mankind� … and is about to come up with all the answers. Any moment now …

It appears to me that we aren't the ones needing a new glue. In any case you should have taken a hint about your glue in 71.

Elmers glue has pork gelatins in it Tahmed. How much have you sniffed of it?

Pakistan is held together with Elmer's glue. Great stuff. You should try it in India sometime.

Hamidm,
Speaking of glue...what happened to the glue used to form pakistan? And what does the label on the glue read?
Adios

Re: # 202

pepe mian,

..... on this i agree with you ..... if it wasn't for the glue of hindooism, india would break up into many countries like europe (actually, more like africa)....... you have to be blind not to see that there is absolutely nothing in common between an indian punjabi and a madrasi except hindooism .... i have more in common with a frenchman than a madrasi! .... and tamilians? ... where the heck did they come from?

Re: # 201 Hamidm

I am not trying to persuade you to any point of view - simply trying to understand you. And so far, it simply does not add up. You claim Indians to be not 'civilized'. But, that is unmistakably similar to the Islamist argument - the viewpoint that you abhor. I will disregard your statements about 'looks and smells' because you are in agreement with the resident Chowk expert - Romair. As regards your viewpoints about Georgia/Russia, France/Germany, Swat/Pothar/Madrasi, you will do well to consider this:

India is larger than Europe (in size and population), and some of the states of India are larger than many European countries. The differences within India exceed those within Europe. The population of India is greater than that of Africa and South America combined. 40% of the world's languages and dialects are spoken in India. With that in mind, the difference between an Indian Punjabi and a Paki Punjabi are minute (from an Indian perspective).

The bottom line: all your stated reasons do not seem 'worth it' (i.e. objective costs outweigh benefits) for the misery they have caused in the past few decades.

I know that you try to be funny all the time and sometimes evade inconvenient questions (like Tahmed). I thought that you were somehow different.

Re: # 200

pepe mian,

.... first, primitive indians are no civilized englishmen! ... second, i also mentioned georgia and russia, which might be a more appropriate comparison ........ actually, indians - if they looked and smelt better - are more like the serbs who just can't get over their dream of greater serbia and their hatred of 'turks' .........

Re: # 173 Hamidm2

I don't think that you realize the irony in your posts and how your responses raise more questions than provide answers.

For example, you say, "...just as americans have dumped 'mother england' we would like to dump 'mother india' but you guys just won't let u...". You know quite well that the Anglo-American alliance is one of the strongest in the world - the exact opposite of Indo-Pak hostility. See the contrast?

You also mention vegetarianism - you know quite well that many Indians (including Hindus) are anything but, and will also eat beef.

Your responses do not square with your wit, and that is disappointing coming from an otherwise intelligent person.

BTW, here are the funding bodies of Hoodbhoy's Pugwash Conference:

Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs*
Cities and Countries: Geneva, Switzerland; Rome, Italy; and Washington, D.C., the United
States of America
Contact person: Mr Serguei Batsanov, Director, Pugwash, Geneva Office
Financial resources: The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Cyrus Eaton Foundation, the Carnegie Corporation of New York, the Ploughshares Fund, and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund...

----

You all can do your own research on the Rockefellers and the Carnegies to see where this moron's loyalties lie....

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

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#194 Posted by bittersweetmojo

Harish, now you can see that he is proving my statement. He has finished tearing his clothes and hair. Now he is looking for something to break the mirror in his house. He can not bear his own sight.

What does he know about the Indian Army? They are one of the best disciplined stuff. There has not been any military takeover in India while it takes place jimme-ke-jimme in Pakistan. We are proud of Indian Army while Pakis call their army, a haramkhor army.

Dear bitter, to a large extent, I feel guilty for your today's fits.

#194 by bittersweetmojo

Pimp Army has only killed a few Taliban and a number of innocent Pushtoons. Your rouge army has committed crimes beyond Nazis' imigination, from Kashmir to Tamil land.

Er..BS mojo, you made a small clerical error. You forgot the East Pakis. 3 million people is a figure matched only by the Nazis. So if anyone forgot to pay attention to blindness, it wa your mom. In addition to being bitter and bitter, you should perhaps also add a "blind" suffix to your nick?

Sometimes I wonder what makes you guys so proud of your whores-with-guns?

That's a question that must be asked of an army that bends over at the first available opportunity, and going by our experience in '71, '99 and Colin Powell's telephne call, that honor belongs to your army alone.

#193 Posted by harish_hyd

" Right in front of your very eyes, Pakistan is going under and here you are on the Internet, reminding us lowly Hindus how brave your ancestors were! "

I hear that every rickshaw puller at Charminar in Hyderabad claims to be the descendent of Nawab of Hyderabad. Is this bitter stuff any different?

Re: # 185

Harish,

I can see why your mom never paid attention to your blindness in the first place. She thought you would be better off as a slumdog, no?

Indian army is worst than Pimp Army. We Pakistanis know that for a fact. Pimp Army has only killed a few Taliban and a number of innocent Pushtoons. Your rouge army has committed crimes beyond Nazis' imigination, from Kashmir to Tamil land.

Sometimes I wonder what makes you guys so proud of your whores-with-guns?

The answer is yet to be found.
-E

#191 by bittersweetmojo

Ah! There comes the old Paki trick. Every time you slap their faces with facts, out they pop up with history, 1000 years of Mughal rule, Ghori, Ghazni, blah blah blah!! Arey meray bhai, forget about the history, what have YOU and YOUR generation accomplished? Right in front of your very eyes, Pakistan is going under and here you are on the Internet, reminding us lowly Hindus how brave your ancestors were!

Anil writes "How many people who live on less than $2 a day can pay for their ticket to Lahore or Karachi, let alone to the U.S., and pay for 1.5 years of living and educational expenses in the U.S.?"

Those living on $2 a day (which is a standard that the WB has come up with to try to hide the many in those countries living on less than $1 a day, and it is a mean existence in Pakistan even on $2 a day when you figure in the fact that you have to live on the streets to make it with that kind of money) are not responsible for their condition. Those that can afford much more than a ticket and have enriched themselves at the expense of the masses, those of the Pakistan Army supported by the Americans are responsible. Ad Hominem arguments against me will do nothing to improve their condition or to discredit my arguments- so get an education rather than follow me around like a jamadar. You are the one blaming individuals for social problems, a contradiction that your dimwit mind can never resolve. Entrepreneurship will not provide homes for the homeless, it will make them poorer, government intervention in the economy to fulfill the needs of the people before one cent profit can be claimed by any private corporation will get those people jobs and a home and a higher standard of living.

Ana: I think this was a very appropriate forum to discuss what you were stating, whereas many studies exist showing the subordinated status of Muslims in India, none exist regarding Christians in Pakistan. Giving examples (random ones) of explicit racism says nothing about either your concern for your group or that you know "what's going on", because you certainly do not.

Bittersweet: Hoodbhoy is not for science or the scientific method, he is for imperialism, and that involves scientism where he will force his westoxication on students knowing nothing about certain areas as sociology while assuming he knows more about it because he's a physicist! His blind hatred for Islam is also quite evident. Now the JI morons need to be controlled but we should not and cannot control one kind of extremism with another kind, via a super moron who is CIA financed, picked up very early on through being groomed by the Rockefeller foundation and later sifted by the Fullbright foundation, and fulfills their imperialist agenda through the Pugwash foundation.

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

Re: # 184

nemescis,

I am still waiting for somebody from India who can say: "I am a Man. And that I can take on other Men, i.e Pakistanis"
chc chc.

Often I ve wondered how come a handful of Muslims rule over such a big land. The answer, that I've got now, is simple: there was no Man. Even the best man you had in South was a Muslim Tipu. Wow! Did Ram ji never teach you how to be manly? Oh I see, isn't that how and why you developed the traits n tricks of banya-geeri?

If you need some, we can send over a few to produce a lot for you guys. What say!

Would hamid, ahmed, Urstruly and most of all Masadi be enough for you?
-E

Re: # 183

"my only issues with india are kashmir and vegetarianism .."

This is nonsense and you know it.........hamidm, Indians probably eat more non-vegetarian food than Pakistan......
Infact, non-vegetarian food is favorite of martial castes...even Lord Rama , the greatest of all the kshatriya King was a non-vegetarian along with his consort Sita and ate meat frequently..........

Your prejudices have more to do with your indoctrination form your birth into the cultural Islam which remains a part of your character even without belief in Allah.........

#185 Posted by harish_hyd

For every evil deed happening in Pakistan, there are people like bitter-bitter-mojo(forget the sweet) to wish that it happened in India.

The other day, tahmed, in his wish-dom, was ranting that situation in swat are better than in India.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. They are only repeating what they have learnt in madrassas.

Re: # 183

hamid uncle,

I agree with you on "who don't drink' point. Rest needs to be assessed with a flare of humour. But some other time, ok?


-E

Re: # 150

I completely agree Jay bhai.

The day rape, conquests, plunders, loots , pillage, destruction of other religious places, beheadings and other forms of physical and cultural violence gets proscribed in Islam .......

we would see a new Islam blooming.......

re: hamidm2 #179

We have never denied that we are an evil people, we just believe you guys are worse than us.

dost-mittar, stuka and vereesh were genuine tourists..raw does not use indians for its work in pakistan. With all your contacts in the pakistani establishment you should know better.

Regards,

Faruk

#182 by bittersweetmojo

Yes, one thing I would love to see is a proper castration of all Indian army, from top to bottom, so that they can be punished for killing innocent Indians, whom I love, from Kashmir to down south.

LOL! Another deluded specimen from the land of the pure. Even as the US launches predator drone strikes flown FROM Paki territory to kill Pakis and the PAF uses helicopter gunships to target its own citizens, here we have a Paki, shedding tears for innocent Indians "killed" by the Indian army.

If ever the continent of Africa runs out of Ostriches, they can import them from Pakistan.

#170 Posted by bittersweetmojo

"To say the least, you are still alive, no? Since you don't subscribe to your musla-enemies' scripture, you should have been killed long ago"

Only if wishes were horses!

"Yeah, right. A 1000 year of rule was your punishment, haven't you understood it as yet?"

Yes dear, I have. (Good you have begun to subscribe to hindu philosophy) We paid for our sins and squared our account. Good days have already dawned for us. Know what happened to those bedouines who perpetrated crime on us? Alas, they are born in pakiland in the shape of rape products. Those who were lucky to be born in India were also bundled to Pakiland to face the consequences of their past deeds. You know what the height of nemesis is? Jinno was converted to Jinnah to carry out this unpleasant task. They are now wallowing in the 'hellfire' that is pakistan. Greater degree criminals of those days are in swat, praying to be bombed to death.

"Oh sure, there is. Wanna find out?"

Oh yes, I did it. It is Pakiland where people are living like pigs, with Paki army and talibs playing 'hellkeepers'.

"Sure. And how about "a good Hindu "

Now I can see that you are beginning to tear your clothes. Shirt, pant, everything. Hey, don't tear your hair now. Its ok!!! its ok!!!

"LeT is perfectly good to keep you in senses"

Yeah, I suppose so. But those dud-headed morons are busy carrying out the biddings of hindu gods, little realizing that they are making hell of their own folks.

By the time you reach zannah, all the houries would be infected with HIV, thanks to the allah's army already making beeline for heaven.

Re: # 182

bitter sweet mian,

..... i am sorry, but we will have to disagree on this one ..... my only issues with india are kashmir and vegetarianism - i just cannot trust people who don't eat meat ......... on the other hand, i have many serious issues with moslems of all ilk ..... even your extreme right-wing hindoo is a liberal compared to a 'moderate' moslem like tahmed ....... as much as i don't trust vegetarians, they are not half as bad as people who don't drink .........

Re: # 180
lol.
hamid uncle, you make me laugh. Is this an inborn disease or what that has caused your mind such a setback?
Anyway.

"i might just move to india once they give back kashmir to pakistan... "

Well, as far as I can tell, your post-Kashmir-handover- India will be in a different shape, maybe would have vanished altogether. However NRIs would go on living in disquise like Nazis do in NY.

Because as I see it, Kashmir can only be taken by throwing A-bombs on four corners of India, which I wish not to happen. Yes, one thing I would love to see is a proper castration of all Indian army, from top to bottom, so that they can be punished for killing innocent Indians, whom I love, from Kashmir to down south.

Anyway. So let's forget Kashmir, and keep venomizing against extreme right-wing hindus. What say!
-E

harish_hyd#176

There is no need to disparage the pakistani cab drivers. They are good honest people who like to solve all of pakistans problems every day. They just seem to have a problem with other cars that crowd the streets of new york.


Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 178

bittersweet mian,

..... come to think of it, i really don't have any other issue with the horrible hindoos other than the core issue - kashmir ....... i have bigger issues with koranists like tahmed, fools like masadi and jihadis like urstruly - all of whom happen to be pakis ..........

......... as a matter of fact, given the serious issues i have with pakis and mohammedans in general, i might just move to india once they give back kashmir to pakistan .......

Re: # 176

faruk mian,

... to continue, i honestly believe that indians, like germans under the nazi regime, are evil people ... therefore nothing good can come out of exchanging cricket teams, cross border tourism and other such nonsense until and unless the horrible hindoos accept the facts of partition and leave kashmir .......

........ what did we gain from letting in 'tourists' like dost mittar, stuka and vereesh mian? ..... more than likely, these people were raw spies who are now spreading malicious propaganda about the people who played gracious hosts and bought them lunch and dinner ...... if i was ylh i would ask for my money back - fool! ......... like they say, you cannot trust a bania with ram ram on his lips ........

Re: # 173


"please give us kashmir and we won't bother you ... promise"

LOL. Hamid sahib, the way you said 'promise' was asolutely brilliant. I am gonna be a big fan of your innocent style. It reminded of an LeT friend of KU days, who used to say: "First get me Kashmir, then I will enroll myself in one of your lectures on socialism". LoL
-E

Re: # 175

faruk mian,

.... i honestly believe that indians, like the germans under the nazi regime, are evil people ......

#175 and #175 by Faruk

Yaar Faruk, by mocking Indians, hamidm2 and tahmed32 sahibs are doing exactly the same thing the Paki cab drivers in NY do, except that the miserly old not-so-gentlemen they are, they do it here on Chowk; it costs them a lot less doing that here.

re: hamidm2

".........i have also advocated the banning of indians of all ilk from this site so that we pathetic pakis can resolve our internal issues without unemployed macaca code coolies jumping in with their silliness ....... unfortunately, the keepers of this site seem to be pussified peaceniks who believe that you can actually benefit from dialog with primates ..... i believe in the stamford police approach .........."


Hamid mian get a hold of yourself....you have let us pesky indians get under your skin.


If you want to resolve pakistani issues you should visit one of the indian eateries around new york frequented by pakistani taxi drivers. They solve all pakistani issues in their lunch break .....everyday.


you can come back and enjoy chowk for what it is..


Regards,

Faruk

re:tahmed#158
Not sure about the dumped girlfriend syndrome. I am plain jealous, you guys are having a lot of fun out there. Did you read the article (Pubs, Liquor Shops and Women Empowerment ) on chowk about the feminist taking over India.

I am told we have an exciting weekend ahead, the wife and my sister have planned to go to an outlet mall and I was complaining about skiing. I am sure you can understand why we are jealous.


Regards,


Faruk

pepe,

..... sigh! ... you hindoos just don't get it .....

....... in my mind pakistan and india are just as different as france or germany or kenya and tanzania or georgia and russia ......... just because we share a border and some of us have the same dna does not mean that we are one 'nation' ..... besides, there is nothing in common between a madrasi and a swati or, for that matter, a potohari ...... the sooner you hindoos accept that fact the better off we will be ......... when grandpa gopinath agreed to get circumcised he severed (literally) all connections with his past .....

.......... just as americans have dumped 'mother england' we would like to dump 'mother india' but you guys just won't let us .......... why? .... i know misery loves company, but you guys we'd rather squat in the open fields than share a railroad track with you ..... is it that hard to understand?


p.s. please give us kashmir and we won't bother you ... promise

Re: # 171 Hamidm, also see #92. Thx

Re: # 169 Hamidm2

Response to my posts preceding and including #66. Thanks

Re: # 167

"...killing human beings just because they do not subscribe to your beliefs is a good deed."

To say the least, you are still alive, no? Since you don't subscribe to your musla-enemies' scripture, you should have been killed long ago. Or is this you next life you are living?

"The concept of hell is on the earth itself."

Yeah, right. A 1000 year of rule was your punishment, haven't you understood it as yet?

"There is no separate place for hell."

Oh sure, there is. Wanna find out? It's a place that touches the eastern border of Pak-heaven.

"verily, a good musla is a dead musla"

Sure. And how about "a good Hindu is a uri-drunk shit-bathed dead piece of trash."

LeT is perfectly good to keep you in senses. You surely deserve such stupid fighters, no?

-E

Re: # 164

pepe mian,

.... response to what? ..... look, i have always been against any kind of interaction, dialog and cross border tourism with the horrible hindoos until the core kashmir issue is resloved ......

.........i have also advocated the banning of indians of all ilk from this site so that we pathetic pakis can resolve our internal issues without unemployed macaca code coolies jumping in with their silliness ....... unfortunately, the keepers of this site seem to be pussified peaceniks who believe that you can actually benefit from dialog with primates ..... i believe in the stamford police approach ..........

........ anyway, since i don't want to be impolite, what kind of response were you waiting for ?

I am not sure if the partition of the Indian subcontinent was a bad thing. It kind of separated the neer-do-wells from those who are seeking a productive life and a better future. If looked upon dispassionately, talibanization of pakistan wouldn't be such a bad thing. It is not as if religious dogma hasn't been used to rally the masses before in pakistan. I think hamidm, his tongue in cheek comments notwithstanding, gets it. Tahmed on the other hand refuses to open his eyes.

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Re: # 162 Hamidm

Patiently, awaiting your response! Thx

Re: # 158 Tahmed32

"...this Dumped Girlfriend Syndrome (or DGS as it is known to men of science) exhibited by your countrymen..."

That is an overly simplistic explanation for Indian aversion of Pakistan. The more sophisticated explanations are as follows:

a) If millions were killed/displaced/uprooted for Partition, it should have all been for a worthy cause. The benefits should have exceeded costs. That is not the case, and untold human misery was bequeathed to millions and their descendants on both sides of the border. This was perhaps the single most catastrophic and violent event in all of 5000 years of India's history. This does not include the misery that later followed in Bangladesh and Kashmir today. Today, even Pakistanis the intended beneficiaries are worse off. For what?

b) Pakistan's use of Islamist terror as an instrument of state policy in Punjab, then Kashmir and later rest of India strengthens the hands of Hindu zealots who target minorities. This is indefensible, but nevertheless true. This does great damage to the social fabric. You should correlate the rise of the BJP in the '90s with the increasing use of Let and JeM in Kashmir and rest of India.

c) The mass cleansing of Hindus/Sikhs from traditional lands resulting in virtual extinction in the areas where their culture initially arose. If this is the price they paid, Pakistan should have shown some laudable achievements that would have made everyone proud. Since it has not, this sacrifice has been seen as largely wasted and irresponsible.

a hindoo's daily affirmation ............


i might be small and dark and smell of heeng
but, dog-gone it, i am a worthy human being
i might not have an indoor toilet and can get run over by a train
but i’m good enough, i’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me


a paki's daily affirmation :

there, but for the grace of god, go i ............

allah-oh-fubar...allah's chosen muslims kill 30 shias..

Over 30 Dead in Pakistan Bombing
By PIR ZUBAIR SHAH

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — A powerful explosion blamed by police on a suicide bomber killed more than 30 people and injured at least 50 on Friday in the Pakistani city of Dera Ismail Khan, according to residents and Pakistani television reports.

The bombing, targeting the funeral of a Shiite Muslim man who had been shot in the city a day earlier, set off a chain reaction of chaos in the city of about a million people on the edge of Pakistan’s lawless tribal areas.

Enraged mobs attacked local security forces, ransacked shops and surrounded hospitals as members of the funeral procession struggled to secure treatment for the wounded, according to the mayor, Abdur Rauf.

Local police officers were unable to deal with the unrest, Mr. Rauf said, adding that he had asked the Pakistani Army to send soldiers to help cope with the situation..

“I heard a huge explosion,� said Athar Shah, a resident reached by telephone. “We saw dead bodies and blood. We took the injured to the hospital.� But the main hospital for civilians did not have a doctor on duty, Mr. Shah said. When the wounded were taken to the military hospital in the city, staff there said they could not treat so many people.

In recent years, Dera Ismail Khan has witnessed persistent strife between Shiites and Sunnis, with six suicide attacks in recent months.

Terik-e-Taliban, the umbrella group of the Pakistani Taliban, has deployed suicide bombers against Shiites in North West Frontier Province and in the Kurram region of the tribal belt.

The last suicide attack, on January 4, killed seven people.

Mahmood Shah, a retired brigadier of the Pakistani Army who was previously in charge of security in the tribal areas, said violence on Friday showed the pent-up frustration of ordinary people who felt the authorities offered them no protection.

“The government needs to look into this aspect of Talibanization more specifically,� he said.

#154 by tahmed32

No wonder you were used as doormats...er...I mean as geniuses and warriors...by muslims for a thousand years.

tahmed32 sahib, I'd prefer being used as a doormat to being used as a condom any day.

#126 by Goldfinger

Not that I'm much into religious stuff...still its fallacious that you make sweeping statements like that...

And pray tell us yaar GF, what exactly were you doing in this post but the above?

#22 Posted by Goldfinger on February 17, 2009 10:51:07 pm
Its strange...every article that is posted on this forum unleashes a milieu of Indi street urchins and juvenile delinquints like a freight train, spitting, spiting, abusive and hateful...or like flies on human excrement in the middle of India's rail road tracks. Why do they hate us as hamidm2 put...is it because we are beautiful? Or are these all workers of raw? Is Kali Maa and the stench of their homes driving them to this hate? Is it the past more than 1000 years of history? Is it the rail road squatters of Mumbai, and performing of their daily rituals for the whole world to view? is it the ugliness of Indi slums and their grinding poverty? is it their abominable corruption and the ineptitude and corruption of their courts (where according to one report it would take 466 years for them to go through sorting all their cases)? Or is it the Hindutva's fervent hate for all things and fairy tales alien to their kind, and their wish for doing away with all those who are not of their faith in their fairy tales? Is it the Slum Dog Millionaaire Syndrome? There are many more questions...but one thing on top of all they must keep in mind...something that even envoy Holbrook told their head honchos the other day...that if the virulence of the bearded demons kept on continuing unchecked, the smug smirks from their faces could be removed in a hurry...

Faruk Sahib: I was merely relating the only reasonable explanation for this Dumped Girlfriend Syndrome (or DGS as it is known to men of science) exhibited by your countrymen. Far be it from me to patronize a man of gravitas like yourself.

Mr. Masadi: They chained Hercules. But he just brought the pillars down.

They chained you. And you will bring the house down. I know you will.

Masadi,

Welcome back.

I must say I agree with Anil, as you should behave on Chowk.

On Hoodbhoy and my jumping into the matter, let me tell you something. I criticize Hoodbhoy on his liberal views on neo-Taliban, but I am all in favour of standard education and research, no matter how liberal it is. He's a Physics professor and so does he have every right to talk about HEC policies. As a KU student, myself took part in 2002 protests against HEC and its policies.

Besides I would love to see students being taught Darwinism rather than its condemnation in classes. And my experience with Karachi University and QAU professors has been somewhat different, with a few exceptions, of course.

I think you should know that I will prefer liberal students over conservatives. Left students are somewhat an extinct species, so I don't expect the presence of more than a handful of them in universities. Same goes for professors. That's for sure.

So let's keep our neo-Taliban discussion and Jamaat-e-Islami is different sections, cuz I will never support JI and its bankrupt professors. EVER.
-E

pinku jee: nice hearing from you. Have you become a sister in islam yet??

nemescis #149 You indians are so smart. You can look at stars and foretell the future. You can interact with strangers on the internet and draw up their family tree!! No wonder you were used as doormats...er...I mean as geniuses and warriors...by muslims for a thousand years.

Re: # 128
hamidm2...
"..... is this account taken from your middle school text book ? ..."
Indian official text book does not look much different than that of Pakistan...they too extol the central asian invaders......like paki history, official version of Indian history is formulated in a madressah, Aligarh madressah....

if Pakistan want to merge with India, India will not agree...whatever you may say, may be for the sake of teasing people here.....

you don't need to be an indian to dislike Pakistan or Pakis...little bit humans sense and knowledge about pakis/muslas/islam is enough....

Indians are highest earners among US immigrants

Washington (PTI): India-born American residents, numbering over 1.5 million, are the best educated among all the foreign born communities in the US and are also the highest earners in the country, latest census has revealed.

The median household income for US residents born in India is $91,195 against a $50,740 average for the total population, the data said.

///////////////

Then of course, islam is the fastest spreading religion in the US, mostly among the high security prisoners. Budhism is the fastest spreading religion among the rich.

Relentless march of the TNT. After eliminating the hindus and the ahmadias, the other of the TNT concept is shias now.

Long live pakistan

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20 dead as bomb rips through Pak funeral procession
20 Feb 2009, 1256 hrs IST, AGENCIES
audio
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
PESHAWAR: Twenty people were killed on Friday in a suicide bombing at a funeral procession for an assassinated local Shia Muslim leader in
northwest Pakistan, officials said.

Re: # 116

"ajeya: how do you know you are not the product of a rape? "

That is tahmed defending the rape and pillage of muslims in India. It is the posts like this that support and sustain hoodood ordinaces, it is the popsts like this that support taliban and their public be-headings.

It is really a sad tale how education cannot change the hatred that is passed on through k for kafir education.

The hopelessness of pakistan is here on chowk, in tahmeds posts.

#146 Posted by Goldfinger

No. I was trying to tell you that Indians never behaved in the barbaric bedouin way that your grandmother's rapists did, which you idolize. Remember, in those who were killed or enslaved, you had your forefathers also. Are you so devoid of self respect that you deify those barbers?

#129 Posted by krishna_abcd

" slink away to come back another day, when this particular accuser is gone."

That is the first choice of chowkies from the land of the pure

" kill the accuser"

That would be the first item on their wish list.

" lie through your teeth"

That is their religious duty. Their prophet has ordained them to speak the truth.

Just imagine, while they swear that they are true muslims, they do just the opposite of what their scriptures say. They think they are faithful just by showing their a****le to the heaven five times a day.

Re: # 143 nemescis...instead of getting into an apoplectic fit of anger reread my post #125 again...and try to act on the advice before poking nose into other peoples business.

Re: # 142 nemescis...trying to compare one brief moment in time to a history of a 1000 years?! Surely during 1000 yrs you come across a varied lot of rulers.

Re: # 129 krishna_abcd: "If I was a muslim (well, I'd be an "apostate" in a heartbeat, but anyways...), and I had any self-respect, instead of trying to fudge things out, I would challenge hindus on this forum on the FACTS. And have an actual argument. And let chips fall where they may.

But you are a Muslim. Deep down, you know that EVERYTHING is actually true. That mo did indeed do all the things he's accused of doing. That in India muslims did indeed do whatever they are alleged to have done. So you would avoid direct confrontation. And either 1) try to demonize whoever is accusing you guys of whatever (hate-monger, hateful, prejudiced etc. etc.), or 2) lie through your teeth or 3) kill the accuser, or 4) slink away to come back another day, when this particular accuser is gone.

It's par for the course for you muslims."

If I believe in or not in any fairy tales (which I think all religions are, yours taking the cake hands down being the most old and primitive) is my personal business...if you wish for me to join you and all of your other co-religionists in doing nothing but abusing one faith day in and day out, well I refuse...because its unfair to pick only on one...however if you wish to join in by being abusive to your own set of fairy tales as well would it make it more fair...as for your argument about brutalities done to your ancestors...well 1000 years is a long time...those were brutal times (still are)...some rulers must have been brutal but I'm saying there were some who were better...and gave you example of Sher Shah Suri...that is what is history...after all about 5000 yrs ago your own high falutin ancetors also came from somewhere (aryans from central asia?)...they raped and pillaged...made the caste systems...made people change...or maybe they didn't teach you all this at school? That is how the currents of time come and go...

Re: # 128

hamid mia, these are all official accounts of momeen ghazis themselves.......and the same attitude gets carried down to generations of those who consider them are the rightful and pure heirs of the Islami Jehad in the sub continent........

Paki history begins with jehad in the land of Hind and Sindh........it would end with the destruction of the present day jehadis and their supporters in Pakistan......

#125 Posted by Goldfinger

A pot should not be calling kettle black.

Teri auqat hi kya hai?

#122 Posted by Goldfinger

"after all what victors do to the vanquished throughout history"

Compare this with the treatment given to the ignoble mass of 91000 Paki soldiers including a general, captured by the Indian army. They were fed and fatted for several months in India and honourably sent back to their homes. Are you left with some shame now?

tahmed, make sure you are using reason and brain when you pretend to be serious or intelligent. I more or less stopped replying these things as I thought i repeated them often, but seems those were not enough. Do you want to compare hinduism and islam based on what you said?


[[
#85 Posted by tahmed32 on February 19, 2009 3:41:30 am
#84 Flatiron: So, you say hindus created hinduism. What led the hindus to create these gods then?

And you continue that hinduism is flawed as hindus are a people. Fine. How flawed do a people have to be to create the caste system (where the religion itself adds insult to injury by saying the lowest castes are so because of their own misdeeds, and those in power are so because they had been good!!!)?

]]

Islam is a compilation of tribal talk about slaves, loot, killing and all kind of stupid things, and this is what you are comparing hinduism against? If Islam can be 1% divine, assuming that 1% of divinity is simply idiotic, than of course hinduism will have at least 1% of divinity that doesn't look that stupid. There is no society that doesn't have castes or hierarchy of status of some kind. All open societies end up with their hierarchy of status. Do you know why you are not CEO of a company? Is it your fault if you were not born that smart to be a CEO of a company? Is it your fault that you were born as a pakistani and a muslim? Assume that you were converted to Islam from Hinduism, is it your fault that you went through that conversion? Assume, somebody else was a slave of an Arab trader and that is how he got converted to Islam, is it his or his descendant's fault? Similarly, those who are born brahman, baniya, rajput or shudra are not at fault if they feel they shouldn't be what they are, but except for petty untouchability for the lowest level shudra ( comparable buy yet far better than slaves), no other caste has been denied any development. Hinduism shows valmiki and Vysya and many other rishis as Shudra or lower caste and tried to impress upon people that anybody can become great and do great things (contrary to your deceptive belief) .

The worst religions like Islam had slaves, kaffir and such much more evil categorization, while Hinduism arrived at slightly better categorization, based more on profession than on plain slavery. And their religious books talk in much better terms about caste than Islam talks about slaves and non-believers in Islam


[[
And what kind of a people can come up with a soceity that produces specimen of the kind that come on chowk and can talk about nothing other than insults to other communities?

As for my beliefs, they are simple and I have been harping on them for years on chowk. I shall be glad to harp on them some more if you wish and if hamidm gives me permission.
]]

People who are slightly better than those who produced the muslim specimen available on chowk?? Most of these samples don't know what freedom or liberation is and need to free and liberate whole world?? People who talk day in and day out about all bad things in Islam and Pakistan and will keep on claiming that their Pakistan is far better and their Islam is far better. Hindus don't claim such stupid things and are ready to praise any good thing. If Pakistani samples have not proved time and again their consistent pride in stupidity, in the leadership of people like Anil, most of Hindus would have been happy to criticize their own folks, customs or hinduism. But now most people know how "samples" think and reason and what is "divine" for them and most people can not take chance to consider "samples" normal anymore, so they have stopped doing the extra praise they are so capable of doing. It is Islam and its derivative Islamic states who are always living in an illusion of their greatness.


And if any coward wants to mark it as red flagged, make sure you understand that your mind is not able to digest truths as they are.

anil saab:

Thank you.

It's not that I didn't want to discuss it at all, it's that I didn't want to discuss it on Beena's board, where as usual, there are tangents. I didn't want to add to the tangents or take away from the topic here. :) I figure that's part of what my Chowk inbox is for.

but thank you again!

Ana:

You had said that you do not want to discuss iLog, therefore, I did not. I found it moving and felt it was tinged with sadness and love. Tragedy is that such is the situation of minorities in all societies where poorer section of majority must compete with minorities for living. I respect your feelings and desire to not discuss it.

Re: # 130

Masadi sahib:

Masadi sahib:

Masadi (in #131) “...A country where the very vast majority lives on less than $2 a day...�

Masadi (in #130) “...a class fight thanks to Anil, about my education in the U.S, which for the most part besides the first year and a half was self financed working...�

Can you not see from the above your hypocrisy and attempts to cover up your upbringing, because you want to call others peon of the west, elite etc. etc.

How many people who live on less than $2 a day can pay for their ticket to Lahore or Karachi, let alone to the U.S., and pay for 1.5 years of living and educational expenses in the U.S.?

Please first learn to be honest to yourself, otherwise people see through you and through your abuses that shortly follow. Until then you cannot get your own respect, let alone from the others. Without which it is impossible to have intelligent debates.

anil saab:

I am not buying into anyone's arguments. I know quite a bit about what is happening there.

Masadi expressed his opinion. I'm not going to engage in any further discussion because as I said, this was not the appropriate space for that topic to be brought up.

Now, if he wants to talk about the Taliban. . that's more appropriate here, but since when has masadi been appropriate?

Ana:

Please do not buy into Masadi's frivolous agruments which are constructed foolish fundations at best. This confirms tha he cannot develop a matrix that would reflect the structure in Pakistan.

It is pathetic when a bishop bruns alive, or nun is raped or burned. Such societies do not need American matrix to determine hatred and discrimination.

Re: # 131

Masadi:

"...I am sure your leader will lose his leadership appeal as well as his rhetorical BS once this study is done. A country where the very vast majority lives on less than $2 a day..."

"1) Pakistani Christians have a higher unemployment rate than the average Pakistani, 2) They are incarcerated at a higher rate than the average Pakistani, 3) that they have a lower life expectancy than the average Pakistani, 4) that they have a higher mortality rate at various age levels than the average Pakistani...etc"

Only thing sure from the above is that you are so theoretical. And that you are impatient in criticizing and soon moving to hurling abuses.

You want to apply the matrix created for a richer and very different country or society as determinents of discrimination in a country where according to your own admission earning is $2 / day.

You cannot be serious.

Please do behave on this web-site, and have concrete and relevant points or counterpoints. We all would appreciate it, especially those who, like me, do not want to see you banned. Only you are responsible for your banning, so please do not go looking around for the others.

Ref masadi #131

[This is what is known in social scientific language as creating moral panics through threats of "random violence". Not only is it an exaggeration, the language shows clearly that this "leader" doesn't have a clue but supplements horrific examples, exaggerated numbers with language such as "dozens have been" etc. I would like to see one study, just one which uses scientific sampling methodology and shows that 1) Pakistani Christians have a higher unemployment rate than the average Pakistani, 2) They are incarcerated at a higher rate than the average Pakistani, 3) that they have a lower life expectancy than the average Pakistani, 4) that they have a higher mortality rate at various age levels than the average Pakistani...etc]

Yo, masadi, in Lahore a bishop shoots himself in the head on the steps of the courthouse. In New Delhi, Bishop Davidson petitions the Indian Supreme Court asking for reservations for Dalit Christians a la Dalit Hindus and gets a sympathetic reception from the court.

Yet you Paki fcukers are crying hoarse about Indian Muslims (and Tamils, Assamese, Nagas, Bodos, Mizos, etc.) while demanding scientific evidence and statistically valid proof that Paki minorities are persecuted.

Yousuf Yohanna suddenly feels the urge to get his dick chopped off and start braying in Arabic. I don't think Azharuddin ever wanted to turn Hindu and start bathing in the Ganges river. In fact, the fcuker claimed that the only reason he was implicated in a match-fixing scandal was because he was Muslim... which was proved later and he was banned from cricket.

So, STFU.

masadi: I don't think criticism of my ilog was appropriate here in this space. I also think you missed where I said that we needed more intelligent people than him.

He is NOT my leader. I'm not a part of that group.

but thanks anyway for your comment.

In #130 read "Bittersweet jumps to his defense touting "free speech" and calling me all sorts of names and gets away with it "

as

Bittersweet jumps to his defense touting "free speech" and calling me all sorts of names and gets away with it, while PH is free to write articles and I was banned! Hypocrisy of the purest form from ignoramuses.....

Ana writes in her ilog regarding a Pakistani Christian leader's claim:"After implementation of Joint Elections in 2002, the Christians have been booked under blasphemy law, dozens of Christians women have been kidnapped, raped and forcibly converted to marry Muslims, Pastors have been attacked, Churches have been desecrated and congregates threatened. There was no development budget for selected Christian parliamentarians, Christian youth was denied Jobs and silence prevailed on floors of houses. The Joint Elections ended our voice and democratic rights in Pakistan."

This is what is known in social scientific language as creating moral panics through threats of "random violence". Not only is it an exaggeration, the language shows clearly that this "leader" doesn't have a clue but supplements horrific examples, exaggerated numbers with language such as "dozens have been" etc. I would like to see one study, just one which uses scientific sampling methodology and shows that 1) Pakistani Christians have a higher unemployment rate than the average Pakistani, 2) They are incarcerated at a higher rate than the average Pakistani, 3) that they have a lower life expectancy than the average Pakistani, 4) that they have a higher mortality rate at various age levels than the average Pakistani...etc

I am sure your leader will lose his leadership appeal as well as his rhetorical BS once this study is done. A country where the very vast majority lives on less than $2 a day, showing that the government gives a damn about its people has no utility in maintaining religious divisions especially between Christians and Muslims other than it being used as fodder for foreign intervention....

TNITC masadi

First, I was illegally detained by chowk staff for one post on the Pervez hoodbhoy article that was dead on accurate. The doctor, using his authority as "scientists", makes pronouncements as God's prophet, on social matters he knows absolutely nothing about and Bittersweet jumps to his defense touting "free speech" and calling me all sorts of names and gets away with it and then reduces it to a class fight thanks to Anil, about my education in the U.S, which for the most part besides the first year and a half was self financed working my butt off, the moron pronounces moral judgments. Nevetheless, you need to have some basic clue of how social institutions work, what the Pakistani social structure is, what patterns of power exist before you can, like the ignoramus doctor, make moral judgments and reduce Pakistan's ills to moral (or immoral) decisions of individuals. That is why the ignoramus doctor has no right to pronounce on anything social by a long shot just as much as a dhoti wearing witch doctor cannot cure TB.

Have a nice day, and if Chowk staff bans me again for this post, see you all in a week...

TNITC masadi

#126 Goldfinger

[Not that I'm much into religious stuff...still its fallacious that you make sweeping statements like that...]

If I was a muslim (well, I'd be an "apostate" in a heartbeat, but anyways...), and I had any self-respect, instead of trying to fudge things out, I would challenge hindus on this forum on the FACTS. And have an actual argument. And let chips fall where they may.

But you are a Muslim. Deep down, you know that EVERYTHING is actually true. That mo did indeed do all the things he's accused of doing. That in India muslims did indeed do whatever they are alleged to have done. So you would avoid direct confrontation. And either 1) try to demonize whoever is accusing you guys of whatever (hate-monger, hateful, prejudiced etc. etc.), or 2) lie through your teeth or 3) kill the accuser, or 4) slink away to come back another day, when this particular accuser is gone.

It's par for the course for you muslims.

Re: # 119

laddu mian,

..... is this account taken from your middle school text book ? ........ in our madrassa text books the history of the sub-continent starts with the arrival of mohammad bin qasim and they totally ignore everything before his arrival to slay the evil raja dahir ....... we do have grandpa gopinath's rather unflattering picture in a diaper and bodi next to 'k for kafir' in our elementary alphabet book, but nothing like this stuff ........ now i understand why you are so steamed about it! ........ let it out! .... i am glad you are finding catharsis on chowk - tahmed will be more than happy to help

re: tahmed32 #102
Ah! .... you are patronizing me.

We are missing out on all the fun....


Regards,


Faruk

Re: # 124 krishna_abcd..."The difference between Muslims, and EVERYBODY ELSE is that Muslims killed and enslaved CIVILIANS by the millions in the name of religion even AFTER the war was over, and especially during the war. NOBODY ELSE did that. Except for Pol Pot, Hitler and a few others."

Not that I'm much into religious stuff...still its fallacious that you make sweeping statements like that...there were certainly many brutal conquerors amongst the muslims as in everybody else...but there were also people like Sher Shah Suri...one of the fairest and just rulers the sub-continent has ever seen...

Re: # 93 nemescis...did facts pinch a bit hard? I merely wanted to touch on fields that need to be looked into at home before pointing fingers at others...thats all.

#122 Goldfinger

[Re: # 121 laddu...so why must you hate them for all that...after all what victors do to the vanquished throughout history...look at the two world wars only recently...look at US in vietnam, iraq, a'nistan...look at what a lion does to a cow or a wolf to a sheep...look at what aryans did to dravidians and how the castes came to be created...whose fault is it if your ancestors were little lost damsels and they were had by the big bad wolves? Must you seethe with anger for more than a thousand years and give your selves painful haemorhoids? ]

The difference between Muslims, and EVERYBODY ELSE is that Muslims killed and enslaved CIVILIANS by the millions in the name of religion even AFTER the war was over, and especially during the war. NOBODY ELSE did that. Except for Pol Pot, Hitler and a few others.

#116 tahmed32

[ajeya: how do you know you are not the product of a rape? ]

The more important question is, WHAT IF, I am not the product of rape, and YOU are?

Where does that put you?

Re: # 121 laddu...so why must you hate them for all that...after all what victors do to the vanquished throughout history...look at the two world wars only recently...look at US in vietnam, iraq, a'nistan...look at what a lion does to a cow or a wolf to a sheep...look at what aryans did to dravidians and how the castes came to be created...whose fault is it if your ancestors were little lost damsels and they were had by the big bad wolves? Must you seethe with anger for more than a thousand years and give your selves painful haemorhoids?

tahmed, no need to be defensive …

Several times now flatiron has raised a valid point: Why the message continues to be lost on the ummah? After all, it has been 1400 years! When will the ummah finally figure it out??

You have carved out of the Quran, very carefully, a message that is the “core message� … for you. However, there is much in Quran that adequately contradicts your view.

Much confusion thus arises: which parts of Quran are relevant; which ones are irrelevant? Furthermore, why are these irrelevant parts in the Quran in the first place? After all, Quran claims to be the perfect book! What was god thinking 1400 years ago?

Judging from your latest posts, you are engaged in a discussion much suited to your mental level … so carry on with the delusion. But must you be soooo bitter all the time??

In 1000 AD Mahmud defeated Raja Jaipal, a scion of the Hindu Shahiya dynasty of Kabul.Mahmud now turned towards Kanauj which had been the seat of several Hindu dynasties
According to Tarikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, Mahmud's secretary, :

"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire. The friends of Allah searched the bodies of the slain for three days in order to obtain booty...The booty amounted in gold and silver, rubies and pearls nearly to three hundred thousand dirhams, and the number of prisoners may be conceived from the fact that each was sold for two to ten dirhams. These were afterwards taken to Ghazni and merchants came from distant cities to purchase them, so that the countries of Mawaraun-Nahr, Iraq and Khurasan were filled with them, and the fair and the dark, the rich and the poor, were commingled in one common slavery."

This was all as per Chapter 8 of the Quran. The hindu infidels were captured and turned into slaves.

Re: # 115

Mass rapes and sexual slavery of hindu women was very common.

Here is an account from a momeen himself-
When Muhammad later took Kanauj, in A. D. 1017, he took so much booty and so many prisoners that * the fingers of those who counted them would have tired '. Describing how common Indian slaves had become in Ghazni and Central Asia after the campaign of A. D. 1019, the historian of the times says
"The number of prisoners may be conceived from the fact that each was sold for from two to ten dirhams. These were afterwards taken to Ghazni, and merchants came from far distant cities to purchase them ;. . ....and the fair and the dark, the rich and the poor were commingled in one common slavery.
" In the year A.D. 1202, when Qulb-ud-Din captured Kalinjar, after the temples had been converted into mosques, and the very name of idolatry was annihilated, fifty thousand men came under the collar of slavery and the plain became black as pitch with Hindus. "
Slavery was the fate of those Hindus who were captured in the holy war. But, when there was no war the systematic abasement of the Hindus played no unimportant part in the methods adopted by the Muslim invaders. In the days of Ala-ud-Din, at the beginning of the fourteenth century, the Hindus had in certain parts given the Sultan much trouble. So, he determined to impose such taxes on them that they would be prevented from rising in rebellion.

#115 Posted by tahmed32

" i am glad you hindus have this "hindu history" about mass rapes in india being the basis for the spread of islam in india"

Having known what happened world over over 1500 years, you need not form the hindu history the base for understanding the shameful acts of the barbarians committed ("that which your right hand holds"). Stop pretending now.

#116 Posted by tahmed32

"ajeya: how do you know you are not the product of a rape?"

At least his case has to be scrutinised unlike yours. You can not ask yourselves that question

ajeya: how do you know you are not the product of a rape?

#114 nemescis: i am glad you hindus have this "hindu history" about mass rapes in india being the basis for the spread of islam in india. brought to you by the same great society that gave the world the caste system, the suttee, painting faces, and naked men running around to achieve nirvana.

#103 Posted by tahmed32

" a thousand years of being treated like doormats by muslims must really hurt."

Don't forget to say prayers for your forefathers who endured it before being picked up to be raped and converted.

Hamid mian,

We infact would like you to become more like Talibanis.....so that this 'moderate' mask is thrown away forever....... We would be the happiest if shariah is implemented all over Pakistan........atleast the mask would be off from you guys........

heck! No! We do not want any land (which has already been defiled) or want to do anything with the Paki momeens....

Today , my muslim friends also said that you guys are byond redemption...the only solution to your problem is to drop a few nukes..........

this came from my indian momeen friend.........every one including indian muslims are sick of you guys.......

#111 tahmed32

[i am glad to know your female ancestors all had immaculate conceptions, unlike us poor muslims. ]

There is a difference between a conceiving a child out of rape, and conceiving a child in a honorable marriage.

#110 ajeya: i am glad to know your female ancestors all had immaculate conceptions, unlike us poor muslims.